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be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#252 Jan 29 2010 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, since you seem to be stuck


Its funny how you always resolve into name calling rather then accepting that people can see things from different sides and its not always right to see a thing that was designed for different culture base on understanding of your own culture. The big picture should cover all not just your PoV as a player , should be respected but the others should have a take over the whole thing.

Beside you should add Option C since FFXI had 3 options: (A)Solo / (B)****** Party setup / (C)Balanced Party setup (in respect to each encounter).

A: Low exp/time, High chance of death's outcomes , Consumable.
B: Low to mid exp/time, Mid Chance of death's outcomes (raise more accessible), Less chance of losing Consumable.
C: Mid to High exp/time, Low chance of Death's outcomes. less chance of losing consumable.

And death's Outcomes I mean Exp lose , Walking time and re-applying consumables.

And hay! maybe the "gradually making death less painful" started with NA release , you know... the whole player's targeting.

Edit: as I said before , I'm not trying to make others believe , Just given the possible justification for the whole thing but it looks like Soccer player trying to explain why a player shouldn't touch the ball with his hands to a basketball player when the later relate his PoV to basketball rather then Soccer.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 5:11am by Falasi
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#253 Jan 29 2010 at 5:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

I'm pushing car A! Smiley: yippee


I'm pushing car B.
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#254 Jan 29 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully with the ability to repair from crafters I think death penalty should minimal exp loss and decent gear durability loss (with stat loss on the gear as a result). This will help contribute to the growth of the crafters.
#255 Jan 29 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
Avult wrote:
Hopefully with the ability to repair from crafters I think death penalty should minimal exp loss and decent gear durability loss (with stat loss on the gear as a result). This will help contribute to the growth of the crafters.


Stat loss on gear that scales based on durability is a horrible mechanic. The last thing you want is to be feeling compelled to repair your gear at 90% durability because that's when the stat decay starts to kick in. It would do nothing more than create another timesink while people toddle off to repair their gear because they're starting to lose stats even if they could carry on fighting for hours before their gear breaks. If the gear isn't broken, it should function the same as it does when it's at full durability. That's plenty to keep crafters busy and a steady stream of gil funneled out of the economy through repair vendors. Assuming that you're always going to have someone in your party who can repair your gear for you (and assuming they're carrying around enough tools to continually provide the service) would be failed logic.
#256 Jan 29 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Bold TextPersonally I had no problem with the death penalty as it was, If dieing was a pain then you learned be be more careful,thoughtful and planned things out better, I also had no problem with delevelling for the same reason, even more reason to be careful. Weaken the death penalty and the game would lose its atmosphere and excitement.
If they really had to change things then I would suggest maybe that on death one random item of gear would become totally broken, repairable only by crafting, and the item, or one of the items required for the repair to be an exclusive item obtained by farming, that way you would think twice about throwing your life away frivolously and would stop the richer peeps just going out and buying stacks of the repair items.
Dieing would cost everyone the same, "time farming" rather than gil, immaterial of you being rich - hardcore etc etc.Bold Text
#257 Jan 29 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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maelstroem wrote:
Personally I had no problem with the death penalty as it was, If dieing was a pain then you learned be be more careful,thoughtful and planned things out better, I also had no problem with delevelling for the same reason, even more reason to be careful. Weaken the death penalty and the game would lose its atmosphere and excitement.

You have problems.

How about playing a game because it's fun, without consequences?
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#258 Jan 29 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

You have problems.

How about playing a game because it's fun, without consequences?


fun? fun? we are talking about e-peen here! this ain't a place for fun! :P

Making you restart the encounter is enough of a hassle for dieing. I spent 3 days on the last boss of killzone 2 playing on hard until I finally beat him. The encounter was hard as it is, throwing something more besides making me restart would have made me not want to finish the **** game. (good game btw)

Same applies to multiplayer games. We are not massochists!
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#259 Jan 29 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess this was always implicit, but I would have enjoyed FFXI 5x more if there were no xp loss. All that lost xp could have gone into leveling new jobs. Frankly I was sick of leveling my SAM before I even got to 75-- **** merits. If I got a 100,000xp refund on my deaths, I would even start playing again.
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#260 Jan 29 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I guess this was always implicit, but I would have enjoyed FFXI 5x more if there were no xp loss. All that lost xp could have gone into leveling new jobs. Frankly I was sick of leveling my SAM before I even got to 75-- @#%^ merits. If I got a 100,000xp refund on my deaths, I would even start playing again.

I know how you feel, even though my groups rarely died. When I get to 75, I should be able to do endgame without having to level my RNG again.
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#261 Jan 29 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Default
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You have problems.

How about playing a game because it's fun, without consequences?


This sounds a lot like gambling but never being able to lose. You just win and win and win and oops I win again and win and win....well you get the point. Nobody (at least most people) would NOT gamble if there was no possiblity of losing. The penalty when you gamble (which is also a game, just a different type) is losing your money. It would be no fun at all if there wasn't a risk of losing your money. It adds a thrill to the game (still talking about gambling) and this thrill is what makes millions of people enjoy it (along with the chance to win money). This same thrill is achieved in FFXI. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, and we get that you don't want consequences for your actions, but don't act like anybody that wants them are stupid or e-peeeeeen artist.
#262 Jan 29 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
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You have problems.

How about playing a game because it's fun, without consequences?


This sounds a lot like gambling but never being able to lose. You just win and win and win and oops I win again and win and win....well you get the point.

No, not really.

You still die. That's losing.

Your analogy is terrible.
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#263 Jan 29 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not too fond of how WoW handles death, which is pretty much what you're proposing.. FFXI had a pretty steep penalty, but they had a better direction with it. In WoW when I die the only thing I worry about is running back to my body, mainly because money is so amazingly easy to procure that a several gold repair bill is trivial. I think FFXIV should do 25-50% of what FFXI had for exp loss.
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#264 Jan 30 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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This sounds a lot like gambling but never being able to lose. You just win and win and win and oops I win again and win and win....well you get the point. Nobody (at least most people) would NOT gamble if there was no possiblity of losing. The penalty when you gamble (which is also a game, just a different type) is losing your money. It would be no fun at all if there wasn't a risk of losing your money. It adds a thrill to the game (still talking about gambling) and this thrill is what makes millions of people enjoy it (along with the chance to win money). This same thrill is achieved in FFXI. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, and we get that you don't want consequences for your actions, but don't act like anybody that wants them are stupid or e-peeeeeen artist.


Your mistake is in attempting to compare an MMO to gambling. Most games do not involve any kind of gambling. Most FUN games don't involve any kind of gambling, either.

There are many people who find gambling stressful and not very fun, not that FFXI is analogous to gambling even with an xp loss.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#265 Jan 30 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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The bottom line is this: you can find people who will say that part of the reason they left FFXI was that the penalties for failure were too harsh and the rewards were too insubstantial. Again with your narrow thinking.

The bottom line is this: you can find people who will say that part of the reason they left WoW was that the penalties for failure were too mild and the rewards were too easy to obtain. Again with your narrow thinking. (I can say ******** that's correct and pointless too.)

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Why must you continue to deny public opinion? You discourage innovation and creativity.

Seeing as I have repeatedly stated that I actually agreed with your opinions on the death penalty, roughly, what exactly do you think I'm denying? If I'm discouring it, then you apparently must be too.

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Public opinion defines success and failure in the MMO genre. Is that so hard for you to understand?

And the public opinion is just that, an opinion. It is different from person to person; therefore it can not be what defines the success or failure of a game. By that logic, either my opinion along with the other minority who think WoW is a boring game makes WoW a failure; or WoW is the only successful game because it is currently the only one liked by the majority. Either way it's a retarded way of thinking; it does not work like that.

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You forget...I played FFXI for almost 4 years. I've played several other MMOs since. FFXI's grind is not comparable to that of other MMOs. No other MMO I've ever played has featured hours upon hours of fighting the same mobs over and over again for xp. No other MMO I've played has created such an enormous distinction between base character progression in groups vs. solo. If you think FoV is an example of good solo progression, you're a lunatic. Not only is it dull as ****, it's severely limited. For people whose only frame of reference is FFXI pre-FoV, FoV might seem like an amazing, wonderful thing. For those who have experienced the more diverse (and rewarding) solo options in other games, FoV is kind of lame.


Remember when I said ignorance? Yeah. I could easily solo 3k/hr before FoV even existed. Party experience netted you 4-5k/hr. With FoV now I can easily match the exp gain of an exp party solo. No other MMO features hours upon hours of fighting the same mobs over and over again for XP? I'll name one for you, WoW. Now let's replace XP with "rep" and increase the occurances for WoW. WoW was by far more boring than ffxi, the first 67~ levels of the game were solo, there was no epic storyline, there was little community, there was no economy, etc. Plain dull.

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Really? What would you call trigger farming for sky or old school HNMs? Again, it doesn't matter what SE has added since then. If you want the full FFXI experience, camping long spawns is part of it. Stop denying the truth.

In the time spam on 2-3 hours I could have killed Zip, MG, Fuast, Despot, and BB. As for HNMs, you payed attention a grand total of 10 minutes maximum, and afk'd for .3~2.8 hours if you decided to camp HNM. Notice that one of the words you said was "require", ffxi doesn't require you to camp HNMs. If you must get their drops, you can just do einherjar. "It doesn't matter what ffxi had added since then"? lolretard. Next time you try to bring up anything a game that was added after it's initial release I'll be sure to tell you it doesn't count. For my past 2+ years of endgame, I have not once had to camp a long spawn. Stop denying the truth.

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Solo in FFXI is crap. Get it through your head. Truly viable solo play means you should be able to run out into the field as any sensible class combination and do well. The instant you start requiring a particular subjob (especially if you have to unlock said subjob) for it to be viable, it's a broken system.

No, it's not. And no, it's not. Get it through your head. If you can go out in the world and fight ocho's for good exp as a god **** brd/thf, then it's a broken system. As any main job you can go solo and get a good exp/hr rate. Stop making up rediculous requirements for your own opinions of "viable" and applying them like they're facts.

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SE has announced plans to launch FFXIV globally with their initial offering, yet it won't be in every country in the world on release day. So are you now claiming to be more knowledgeable on the functional use of the word "global" than SE? Careful where you stick your foot.

You've stuck your own foot in your mouth well over 5 times in this thread. Shut up and take your own advice. Once I see ffxi or ffxiv playable in every nation that WoW is playable in; then I'll consider it global.

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You mean like you and odinpingpong? I'm not the only one in this thread arguing against xp loss for death, deadgye. And the discussion forums for a game still in alpha are not representative of the majority opinion for said alpha game's predecessor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you argue poorly. And your frustration is becoming more and more evident as your hypocrisy comes more and more apparent.

I'll say it again. You're a ******. How many times must it be said that my argument matches yours on the subject of this thread? Telling me I'm wrong is saying that you're wrong. But you're too ******* retarded and full of yourself to see that I'm not talking about that right now, I've been talking about how you keep repeatedly put your own foot in your mouth and keep making statements that are incorrect and filled with ignorance.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Show me where my posts conflict.

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About as mature as, "you're a god **** @#%^ing ******", amirite?

What, do you take offense being called what you are?

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More failed logic.


elllllllllll ooooooohhhhhhhhh eeeeeeeelllllllllllllll 75% customer loss that was really 25% customer loss that happened in every single MMO on the chart also says wut. So much for your "facts".

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A better analogy would be one where a student fails the course and is forced to repeat it if they want credit for it (re: no xp loss on death).

Compared to a student failing a course and the school administration going over to their permanent record and adjusting their grades from the previous year down as punishment (re: xp loss on death).

In the first analogy, a goal was set (to achieve a passing grade) and was not met, therefore in order to achieve the goal the student would start over.

In the second analogy, that same goal was set but because they failed to meet it, not only must they take the course over to achieve the goal, they have to make up for the impact the extra penalty has on their overall standing.

Still a horrible analogy. The correct one is, you fail the course and nothing happens. You take the course over again if you want credit. Or; you fail the course and your gpa goes down because you got a 0. You need to retake the class over again for credit, and even if you get an A this time through overall you end up with a C. Guess which one happens in real life? I'll give you a hint, it's not the first one.

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Actually, they don't. Group play in WoW throughout all level ranges is at an all time high right now thanks to the new cross realm LFG system.


Oh oh oh oh, "Again, it doesn't matter what SEBlizzard has added since then."

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Stat loss on gear that scales based on durability is a horrible mechanic.

This. It may be understandable if it's at say.. 10 or 15%, but anything more and it's just annoying. Same goes for how much it's usefulness is decreased, anything more than a 10% loss in effectiveness if way too annoying.
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#266 Jan 30 2010 at 3:29 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:
Smiley: cry


You about done yet?
#267 Jan 30 2010 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if the outright hostility towards one another when parties got wiped was worth making those who stayed with the game "better players" to the game designers? I'm sorry I'm bashing on FFXI so hard, but I know for a fact how people would get when they lost that 10% XP.. It was enough to make me level Beastmaster to get away from it. That was the beginning of the end, but I got to over level 60 before falling out of love with the game at least.

The game mechanics can be adjusted to make the game a worthy challenge without taking away the players accomplishments. To really simplify things, in essence, death penalties punish the gamer for spending time with the game. The best way to punish a mediocre gamer is with failure as in "No, you don't get to finish this instance/raid/dungeon/quest." People don't improve their game by taking backward steps. The theory is old and broken.

It's not like the game spawning an aggro mob on top of your puller as they bring a mob back to camp means you have a bad party.. But the death penalty strikes all the same. Some of you may or may not remember the Crawler's Nest before the despawn patch? How many of you felt like inadequate players because someone would zone a train at the entrance? Whether or not that problem was addressed in a patch is completely irrelevant to the number of man hours lost to the penalties. Some of you could learn a lesson from this, and actually value people's time the exact same way you expect them to value yours by showing up to a party prepared. It's a two way street. ..and don't even get me started on the MOUNTAIN of XP I lost due to R=0! We all could have probably had Maat's Cap were it not for that!

I guess some of you feel like having your WHM disconnect in the middle of fighting a bat and wiping your party makes your peepee bigger? Enlighten me.

Edited, Jan 30th 2010 4:54am by Lefein
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#268 Jan 30 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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No, not really.

You still die. That's losing.

Your analogy is terrible


Yes, yes really.

If your goal is to kill x monster (x is whatever monster your fighting), and you die, get back up and kill it, are you losing? No because the death in between means nothing with no form of penalty. All the death was, was an event that happened inbetween accomplishing your goal. Death is meaningless, and is not losing unless you actually "LOSE" something (besides 1sec of your time to get up and continue fighting). Good analogy actually, its the same concept, and could actually be explained farther. If I bet 20 dollars on a game, and I knew even if I lost I would get my 20 dollars returned to me anyway (basically what death would be) then if I lost the bet, I really didn't "LOSE" because I didn't lose anything. All this nobody wants to die stuff is bologna, nobody cares unless you lose something, whether that be time, (not 1sec it takes to raise) or exp, or gil, or durability, or a mixture of those.
#269 Jan 30 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
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You forget...I played FFXI for almost 4 years. I've played several other MMOs since. FFXI's grind is not comparable to that of other MMOs. No other MMO I've ever played has featured hours upon hours of fighting the same mobs over and over again for xp. No other MMO I've played has created such an enormous distinction between base character progression in groups vs. solo. If you think FoV is an example of good solo progression, you're a lunatic. Not only is it dull as ****, it's severely limited. For people whose only frame of reference is FFXI pre-FoV, FoV might seem like an amazing, wonderful thing. For those who have experienced the more diverse (and rewarding) solo options in other games, FoV is kind of lame.


Remember when I said ignorance? Yeah. I could easily solo 3k/hr before FoV even existed. Party experience netted you 4-5k/hr. With FoV now I can easily match the exp gain of an exp party solo. No other MMO features hours upon hours of fighting the same mobs over and over again for XP? I'll name one for you, WoW. Now let's replace XP with "rep" and increase the occurances for WoW. WoW was by far more boring than ffxi, the first 67~ levels of the game were solo, there was no epic storyline, there was little community, there was no economy, etc. Plain dull.

No epic storyline in WoW? Uh, have you paid attention to any of the quests at all?

No community? I've made more friends in WoW guilds than I did in my entire time in FFXI.

No economy? There was actually more of an economy, without RMT running everything. I powereleveled my professions because I had the gold to do so, and could buy everything on the AH. That's an economy.

Rep isn't essential to WoW, BTW. I know a lot of people who haven't even touched rep gains outside of what they make in dungeons and they still are some of the better players I know.
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#270 Jan 30 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
Death is meaningless, and is not losing unless you actually "LOSE" something (besides 1sec of your time to get up and continue fighting).

So there is no penalty besides the penalty.... your logic is astounding.

And group wipes don't exactly take "1sec" of your time. If you're going to start using absurd hyperbole in a pathetic attempt to prove your point, then leave. If you're not going to pay attention to the thread and see the entire discussion about consumable buffs that are lost on death, then leave.
#271 Jan 30 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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If your goal is to kill x monster (x is whatever monster your fighting), and you die, get back up and kill it, are you losing? No because the death in between means nothing with no form of penalty. All the death was, was an event that happened inbetween accomplishing your goal. Death is meaningless, and is not losing unless you actually "LOSE" something (besides 1sec of your time to get up and continue fighting). Good analogy actually, its the same concept, and could actually be explained farther. If I bet 20 dollars on a game, and I knew even if I lost I would get my 20 dollars returned to me anyway (basically what death would be) then if I lost the bet, I really didn't "LOSE" because I didn't lose anything. All this nobody wants to die stuff is bologna, nobody cares unless you lose something, whether that be time, (not 1sec it takes to raise) or exp, or gil, or durability, or a mixture of those.


Pretty much everyone who is against xp loss recognizes that some measures will be required to prevent zombie zerg tactics.

Further, as I've already explained, engaging in combat in an MMO is not like gambling. It's a very different mindset. People go into casinos all the time knowing that the odds are stacked squarely against them-- most games are all or nearly all luck. It is NOT analogous to a game where skill and preparedness against a known enemy leads to success or failure. The psychology is not the same; the situation is not the same.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#272 Jan 31 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Smiley: cry


You about done yet?


It's always lovely when people get shut down so hard they can't even come back with a legitimate retort. You're right, it really does bring a tear to my eye.

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No epic storyline in WoW? Uh, have you paid attention to any of the quests at all?

Yes, I have. I did every single quest that was possible while trying to level up. I even did the ones that were deemed "useless" because it was "so much better to just go the the BC areas". The questlines were pathetic. The main storyline of the game was comparable to a normal questline in ffxi. And nothing in that game even came close to matching the storytelling presented by the nation and zilart storylines, and especially not the CoP storyline.

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No community? I've made more friends in WoW guilds than I did in my entire time in FFXI.

I've made more friends walking around ffxi for 1 week that I've had in my entire playtime on WoW. It probably has to do with the entire game being pretty much solo only until endgame. The only time I even came into contact with other people was when I was doing instances, which was hard enough to get a group for. (Especially when essentially a majority of the instances I wanted to do were deemed useless.)

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No economy? There was actually more of an economy, without RMT running everything. I powereleveled my professions because I had the gold to do so, and could buy everything on the AH. That's an economy.

I powerleveled my alchemy because I had the gil to do so, and could buy everything on the AH. What exactly was your point? Of course the RMT couldn't ruin anything, there was no economy.

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Rep isn't essential to WoW, BTW. I know a lot of people who haven't even touched rep gains outside of what they make in dungeons and they still are some of the better players I know.

I know it's not essential, but it is one of the things you will commonly see people grinding. Much like pictures for ZNM in ffxi. Even when I was doing PvP it was to get mass amounts of tokens in order to buy items or to get honor to buy items. Granted, the PvP was fun so I'm okay with not counting it as a grind. :p (On a related note, whenever I partied in ffxi with a competent party I always had fun and it never felt like a grind.)

Back on topic though; if they get rid of exp loss altogether, I would like to see at least a decent durability loss on death. That's probably the most effective way I can think of to prevent zombie tactics.
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#273 Jan 31 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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If we're gonna start dragging plots around for justification, then let's be real: The stories presented in XI weren't super, it was the cut scene presentation that often made them better than other-game paragraph dumps. However, this isn't to say other games haven't used cut scenes or scripted engine use.
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#274 Jan 31 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
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No epic storyline in WoW? Uh, have you paid attention to any of the quests at all?

Yes, I have. I did every single quest that was possible while trying to level up. I even did the ones that were deemed "useless" because it was "so much better to just go the the BC areas". The questlines were pathetic. The main storyline of the game was comparable to a normal questline in ffxi. And nothing in that game even came close to matching the storytelling presented by the nation and zilart storylines, and especially not the CoP storyline.

Just gonna guess that you never did MH or BT, or any other of the raids (especially Naxx), or the quests leading up to them.

Having played both games at an endgame level (meaning I've completed most of both games), I can tell you that WoW was superior.

Are the quest lines very good at the start of FFXI, when you're level 10-20? Nope. Are they much better in WoW? Nope.

Endgame is where both games' quest lines really picked up, but it's WoW that has far more depth in terms of story late in the game. I can't even recall the lore reasons that people camped Fafhogg or the world dragons (other than they dropped loot). ****, I don't even recall why we were going to sky.

Meanwhile, I remember all of the lore behind WoW. Kinda makes you think about the impact their relative story lines had, doesn't it?
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#275 Jan 31 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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So there is no penalty besides the penalty.... your logic is astounding.

And group wipes don't exactly take "1sec" of your time. If you're going to start using absurd hyperbole in a pathetic attempt to prove your point, then leave. If you're not going to pay attention to the thread and see the entire discussion about consumable buffs that are lost on death, then leave


1. Nobody said anything about a group dieing, I said if u die and automatically get a raise (that takes 5secs) and continue fighting, then you didn't lose anything (which would be exactly what would happen if weakness didn't prevent it).

2. When people play a single player game, and they lose and the end game screen comes up and you have to start over from your last save point, people don't say "oooo they penalizing me". Which is why I don't see the point of bringing up stuff that you automatically know is going to happen when you die and then calling that a "penalty."

3. The death means nothing, if there wasn't some form up penalty that came from dieing. In other words it wouldn't even be a bad thing if nothing bad happens. I didn't say extremely bad, but the level of badness is an opinion, because I don't think ffxi penalty was that bad at all (ive seen way worst).

4. Consumable buffs are a joke and takes literally 10 secs (so combine that with the 5 or 10 seconds it took to raise), and in 20 seconds you could back up normal and fighting (if there was no weakness). The food you lose is a very small gil lost, unless you eating +1 top of line food everytime you die. Also you have to remember you "DIED", maybe be more careful next time and you would of lived.

5. Nobodies opinion is wrong, as we all have different likes and dislikes. Penalties on death can also have positive effects which has been named throughout this thread that most people just look past or just don't care about. I like there to be a reason not to die, and to add some care into how you play. Thats probably why I like socom on the PS3 and a lot of other people like call of duty. On socom their is no respawn if you die, you have to watch others play until next round (a round is usually 5 minutes). On Call Of Duty, its respawn and you can just keep playing and dieing until the time runs out. Playing socom you learn pretty quickly if you don't want to be watching other people play for 5 minutes you better learn how to stay alive. I have way more fun on socom then on call of duty because call of duty has no thrill, I just run in gun and if I die ill just come back in 5 seconds. Socom is more strategy based and definitely a higher thrill. Socom is a long successful brand that has 5 installments and a new socom game for the ps3 in production, as in Call of duty is also a successful brand. Two successful brands 2 completely different styles.

Reason why I bring those 2 games up is that they are both good games and if you talk to the people that play them, they usually hate the other game. People on socom talk bad about call of duty, and people on call of duty talk bad about socom. Its just a matter of preference, as in I like a thrill with the games I play.

Quote:
Further, as I've already explained, engaging in combat in an MMO is not like gambling. It's a very different mindset. People go into casinos all the time knowing that the odds are stacked squarely against them-- most games are all or nearly all luck. It is NOT analogous to a game where skill and preparedness against a known enemy leads to success or failure. The psychology is not the same; the situation is not the same.


I didn't say any of that was the same, as in you clearly missed the point. It was a simple point, the risk of something bad happening adds a thrill to your achievements, and the game as a whole.

Edited, Jan 31st 2010 11:21pm by HocusP

Edited, Jan 31st 2010 11:24pm by HocusP
#276 Jan 31 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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If we're gonna start dragging plots around for justification, then let's be real: The stories presented in XI weren't super, it was the cut scene presentation that often made them better than other-game paragraph dumps. However, this isn't to say other games haven't used cut scenes or scripted engine use.


To be fair , Its depend if you like it or just hate it and most people I know loved most of FFXI's stories myself included. Opinion differ between one person and another otherwise everyone will love/hate everything.

Its healthy to have different opinion but when one opinion go into **** mode then you can just set and laugh about it. Its just silly to bash everyone for loving FFXI as Silly for someone bashing someone else for loving BC:BF1 rather then MW2.

I'm not sure if SE will make the game to get max subscribers otherwise they should just make a FPS game and be done with. an example for some games that were designed not for everyone are Demon's Souls and to some extend Soldner-X(PSN) both considered Harder then normal and both made profit (DS rating was high ~8.9, Soldner made a profit enough and they are making a second regardless of low rating ~6.8). Compitition with WOW will be there ofc but to what extend.

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Meanwhile, I remember all of the lore behind WoW. Kind of makes you think about the impact their relative story lines had, doesn't it?


Maybe coz you played it recently... I dont recall Dragon's force story but I do for Suikoden (imo they screwed it when they moved to 3rd, 2D for Suikoden was perfect but thats another topic).
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#277 Feb 01 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Decent
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1. Nobody said anything about a group dieing, I said if u die and automatically get a raise (that takes 5secs) and continue fighting, then you didn't lose anything (which would be exactly what would happen if weakness didn't prevent it).


Which is irrelevant because no one is asking for that, because everyone knows that it's a stupid idea. That's what is called a strawman argument: offering a made-up argument that is supposed to represent your opponent's actual argument, then attacking it.

Quote:
2. When people play a single player game, and they lose and the end game screen comes up and you have to start over from your last save point, people don't say "oooo they penalizing me". Which is why I don't see the point of bringing up stuff that you automatically know is going to happen when you die and then calling that a "penalty."


People don't say "oooo they penalizing me" because that would be a stupid reaction to have. People DO get frustrated just like they're being penalized, though, which reinforces the assertion that it is a penalty.

When you get tagged in a game of tag, you're "out" and that IS a penalty. People don't say "oooo they penalizing me," but that doesn't change the fact that they are being penalized. And you seriously do not want to argue this point with me. Seriously.
Quote:

3. The death means nothing, if there wasn't some form up penalty that came from dieing. In other words it wouldn't even be a bad thing if nothing bad happens. I didn't say extremely bad, but the level of badness is an opinion, because I don't think ffxi penalty was that bad at all (ive seen way worst).


But there is a penalty. And you talking about your opinion isn't helping your case, because while "in your opinion" the penalty may be so small that it's basically nothing, in most people's opinions, that's not the case AT ALL.

Quote:
4. Consumable buffs are a joke and takes literally 10 secs (so combine that with the 5 or 10 seconds it took to raise), and in 20 seconds you could back up normal and fighting (if there was no weakness). The food you lose is a very small gil lost, unless you eating +1 top of line food everytime you die. Also you have to remember you "DIED", maybe be more careful next time and you would of lived.


Gil= time. Particularly in harder fights where you use things like Ethers and Icarus Wings, it starts to add up if you keep losing, and what it starts to add up to, is even more time lost in addition to the time you lost in xp, and the time you lost in recovering from weakness and reattempting the fight.

Quote:
I didn't say any of that was the same, as in you clearly missed the point. It was a simple point, the risk of something bad happening adds a thrill to your achievements, and the game as a whole.


Nonono, I didn't miss your point. I got your point. Received loud and clear. Your point was just wrong, and I've offered a rebuttal to it multiple times. The risk of something bad happening very often does NOT add a thrill, but frustration and stress.
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#278 Feb 01 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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Falasi wrote:
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Meanwhile, I remember all of the lore behind WoW. Kind of makes you think about the impact their relative story lines had, doesn't it?


Maybe coz you played it recently... I dont recall Dragon's force story but I do for Suikoden (imo they screwed it when they moved to 3rd, 2D for Suikoden was perfect but thats another topic).

I have a nearly perfect memory; I can remember exact plot details in games I haven't played in years. That I don't remember details of FFXI (or the over-arching plot, really) speaks very poorly for the game.

HocusP wrote:
Quote:
So there is no penalty besides the penalty.... your logic is astounding.

And group wipes don't exactly take "1sec" of your time. If you're going to start using absurd hyperbole in a pathetic attempt to prove your point, then leave. If you're not going to pay attention to the thread and see the entire discussion about consumable buffs that are lost on death, then leave


1. Nobody said anything about a group dieing, I said if u die and automatically get a raise (that takes 5secs) and continue fighting, then you didn't lose anything (which would be exactly what would happen if weakness didn't prevent it).

Pretty easily preventable with an "in combat" mechanic. Certain raises don't work in combat, and (if SE wants) certain ones do, but are on a long cooldown, so they can't be used.
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#279 Feb 01 2010 at 3:15 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, slap the text to a transcript, with perhaps a bit of fluff to compensate for lack of graphics (or maybe just make it like an illustration book) and I doubt you'll find much of the writing world raving about what we got. It's all very much something a high schooler could've scripted. Though, that's to be expected when dealing with RPG cliches while never going past the PG rating. Er, my bad, T for Teen.
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#280 Feb 01 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Which is irrelevant because no one is asking for that, because everyone knows that it's a stupid idea. That's what is called a strawman argument: offering a made-up argument that is supposed to represent your opponent's actual argument, then attacking it.


Its not irrevelevant because people have not suggested a penalty that would stop this from happening. All I have heard was don't let people raise whle in combat, which to me would take away a huge FF feel to the game (since you always could raise during combat in every other FF game unless you was the last person in your group, either with raise potions or spells). People don't want the weakness because they said they don't want to afk for 5 minutes. People don't want the exp lost because its stressful, and I have yet to see anyone suggest a penalty that would stop these tactics. I even seen one person say just let zombie killing happen but the drops would be effected if you died during combat (which to me would be a pityful system). I also seen people say let gear be degraded but I also seen them say that a few deaths shouldn't mess up the gear that much, so in reality zerg tactics could be easily used there too.

Quote:
When you get tagged in a game of tag, you're "out" and that IS a penalty. People don't say "oooo they penalizing me," but that doesn't change the fact that they are being penalized. And you seriously do not want to argue this point with me. Seriously.


Bad example, because you are suppose to be out if you are tagged, that is part of the game. Just because you die, doesn't mean game over in an MMO.

Quote:
But there is a penalty. And you talking about your opinion isn't helping your case, because while "in your opinion" the penalty may be so small that it's basically nothing, in most people's opinions, that's not the case AT ALL.


Its a matter of opinion and perspective. People that played everquest and other hardcore MMO's would beg to differ.

Quote:
Gil= time. Particularly in harder fights where you use things like Ethers and Icarus Wings, it starts to add up if you keep losing, and what it starts to add up to, is even more time lost in addition to the time you lost in xp, and the time you lost in recovering from weakness and reattempting the fight.


This happens in rare occations, that you would use ethers and icarus wings. I don't really think you can judge the severity of a death penalty based on rare occations. Even then, you should try harder not to die, as in if you die or not is in your hands, (and the people you surround yourself with hands).

Quote:
Your point was just wrong, and I've offered a rebuttal to it multiple times. The risk of something bad happening very often does NOT add a thrill, but frustration and stress.


Once again your wrong, I never said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful, I said it adds a thrill to the game, period. If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, sure I will probably get frustrated but that doesn't mean it wasn't a thrill. There is still a thrill that is added to the game even if you get frustrated when you do die. If I die in the first 30 seconds on socom sure I might get frustrated, knowing that I have to watch others play for 4 minutes but socom still provides the biggest thrill that other shooting games have not matched (at least to me and the people that play socom, because I hear it a lot). If you get stressed (and I mean over the top stressed like some people are making it sound), you might need to talk to a counselor of some sort. Sure I got mad a few times I died, but some of you are making it sound like it was ****, yet you continued to play the game for 5+ years.






















#281 Feb 01 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Once again your wrong, I never said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful, I said it adds a thrill to the game, period. If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, sure I will probably get frustrated but that doesn't mean it wasn't a thrill.


Gambling addicts often speak of the euphoria that comes from a loss. It's not normal. You might have a problem.
#282 Feb 01 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I was happy every time somebody emo-rage-quit the game b/c they died to something trivial and lost XP, proceeding to blame everything else out of nothing but frustration.

If nothing else, the death penalty in FFXI filtered out the children.

I cannot confirm where those players went, but I have an idea.
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#283 Feb 01 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
HocusP wrote:
Once again your wrong, I never said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful, I said it adds a thrill to the game, period. If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, sure I will probably get frustrated but that doesn't mean it wasn't a thrill.


Gambling addicts often speak of the euphoria that comes from a loss. It's not normal. You might have a problem.


I think he was talking about the thrill before the win/loss was determined, but oh wait, this is Aurelius, nvm. Carry on your desperate attempt to prove your point using strawman arguments.
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#284 Feb 01 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know there's some crazy discussion going here pages back, but I just don't want to feel set way back because of an accident or two. Otherwise I don't care what the penalty is.

odinpingpong wrote:
If nothing else, the death penalty in FFXI filtered out the children.


If you think a moderate mechanical annoyance is what filters out "the children" in an MMORPG you've really got another thing coming.

Still yet another thing coming if you think FFXI was even relatively free of childish players.

Maybe they just "emo-rage-quit" (lol) and all came to my server.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 7:00pm by PrinnyFlute
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#285 Feb 01 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
odinpingpong wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
HocusP wrote:
Once again your wrong, I never said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful, I said it adds a thrill to the game, period. If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, sure I will probably get frustrated but that doesn't mean it wasn't a thrill.


Gambling addicts often speak of the euphoria that comes from a loss. It's not normal. You might have a problem.


I think he was talking about the thrill before the win/loss was determined, but oh wait, this is Aurelius, nvm. Carry on your desperate attempt to prove your point using strawman arguments.


I think most people are busy trying to execute their role, not wax philosophically about the potential consequences of failure. You know...actually play and enjoy the game in the moment? Less about outcome and more about process, yes? "Life's a journey, not a destination," yes? Just like a person gambling...they're thinking about possibly losing their money before they place their bet, they're thinking about the money they've lost when they leave at the end of the night, but while everything is going on they're thinking about what they might gain. Thinking about loss tends to not be thrilling for most people. Thinking about winning/gaining is.

odinpingpong wrote:
I was happy every time somebody emo-rage-quit the game b/c they died to something trivial and lost XP, proceeding to blame everything else out of nothing but frustration.

If nothing else, the death penalty in FFXI filtered out the children.

I cannot confirm where those players went, but I have an idea.


Or, in my case it was another week of merit parties that disbanded 20 minutes after I got there after spending hours just trying to get a group as an RNG/NIN in a TP burn obsessed community...a week that also included a failed synth on a Hakutaku Eye Cluster for some poor BST who, having farmed all of the eyes himself (22+ hours worth) had demonstrated all the skill and perseverance a reasonable person might expect just to get the items for the spawn trigger only to have them all vanish in an explosion of white light in the hands of a 100 skill alchemist who had little/no control over success/failure.

You have an opinion of FFXI. So do I. The devs for FFXIV seem to be leaning more to a casual/less punishing setup in the new game, which favors my preferences more than yours. It's not about "easy" or being childish. It's about enjoying a game. Nothing more, nothing less. Be a sport, get the sand out of your vag, and keep the discussion on track and reasonable or sod off. These boards have enough FFXI fanbois trying to convince everyone else that hardcore is the way to go and anyone who feels otherwise is somehow a lesser person. FFXIV will not be as hardcore as FFXI. That's all we need to know. If you want to talk about childish, talk about the @#%^ who came here and made blanket statements directed at an entire community to the effect that shunning excessive penalties means they just want everything easy.

Your elitist bullsh*t is rather transparent. It's okay. Maybe FFXIV will be too casual for you and all of this will be moot. Maybe SE's idea of "casual friendly" and "do what you want" will still be catered more to the eastern market than what has become the norm in the west. Either way, if you want to talk about maturity, start with yourself. If you feel compelled to leap to the defense of blithering idiots, HocusP is a safe bet for plenty of altruistic endeavors on your part. Try some objectivity on for size...you'd be surprised at how often you'll feel compelled to shut your mouth.


Edited, Feb 1st 2010 6:58pm by AureliusSir
#286 Feb 01 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Its not irrevelevant because people have not suggested a penalty that would stop this from happening. All I have heard was don't let people raise whle in combat, which to me would take away a huge FF feel to the game (since you always could raise during combat in every other FF game unless you was the last person in your group, either with raise potions or spells). People don't want the weakness because they said they don't want to afk for 5 minutes. People don't want the exp lost because its stressful, and I have yet to see anyone suggest a penalty that would stop these tactics. I even seen one person say just let zombie killing happen but the drops would be effected if you died during combat (which to me would be a pityful system). I also seen people say let gear be degraded but I also seen them say that a few deaths shouldn't mess up the gear that much, so in reality zerg tactics could be easily used there too.


People in this discussion have not tried especially hard to come up with a penalty either-- they've just discussed a few ideas and preferences. Other threads have discussed this subject in the past and very good solutions have been presented.

So I assure you, whether you know it or not, it's irrelevant. There are solutions-- whether or not you know or like them isn't especially important.

Quote:
Bad example, because you are suppose to be out if you are tagged, that is part of the game. Just because you die, doesn't mean game over in an MMO.


Uhhhhh, are you being serious right now? The penalty is a part of the game, just like xp loss is a part of FFXI. It's not a bad example. Further, tag has many variants, many of which put players back in the game when certain conditions are met. Even with these conditions, being "out" is still a penalty.

Like I said, you seriously do not want to argue with me on this. I know this **** backwards, forwards, up, down, left, right, inside and out.

Quote:
Its a matter of opinion and perspective. People that played everquest and other hardcore MMO's would beg to differ.


They would beg to differ with this?:

Quote:
But there is a penalty. And you talking about your opinion isn't helping your case, because while "in your opinion" the penalty may be so small that it's basically nothing, in most people's opinions, that's not the case AT ALL.


Which part of that would they beg to differ with? The facts, or the other facts? None of that was my opinion. There is a penalty, and that is a fact. Most people would recognize that it was a penalty even if in your opinion it was such a small penalty that it didn't count as a penalty. That is also a fact.

So people that played EQ and other hardcore MMOs are welcome to differ if they don't mind being wrong.

Quote:

This happens in rare occations, that you would use ethers and icarus wings. I don't really think you can judge the severity of a death penalty based on rare occations. Even then, you should try harder not to die, as in if you die or not is in your hands, (and the people you surround yourself with hands).


Your "should try harder" sentiment is incredibly misguided. Do you think most people aren't already trying their hardest? Do you think "didn't try hard enough" is usually the reason they die? Do you recognize that often dying in FFXI means that you were doing a -good- job?

Those are all rhetorical questions, by the way. I'm not asking you what you think, because I really don't want to correct you on it.

Quote:
Once again your wrong, I never said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful, I said it adds a thrill to the game, period. If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, sure I will probably get frustrated but that doesn't mean it wasn't a thrill. There is still a thrill that is added to the game even if you get frustrated when you do die. If I die in the first 30 seconds on socom sure I might get frustrated, knowing that I have to watch others play for 4 minutes but socom still provides the biggest thrill that other shooting games have not matched (at least to me and the people that play socom, because I hear it a lot). If you get stressed (and I mean over the top stressed like some people are making it sound), you might need to talk to a counselor of some sort. Sure I got mad a few times I died, but some of you are making it sound like it was ****, yet you continued to play the game for 5+ years.


I'm not wrong-- I never said that you said it couldn't be frustrating or stressful. Stop trying to invent reasons why I'm wrong.

Now that said, it does not add a thrill for everyone. Period. This is a fact.

If I bet on the superbowl and I lose, the only thing that's going to happen to me is that I'll think "I shouldn't have bet on the superbowl." And know what? My family organizes superbowl squares, and I can't tell you how completely unthrilled many of the participants are.

Further, you're not qualified to talk about stress or give advice on the subject, and I am. Normal people are obviously not throwing daily tantrums, but it doesn't mean that they aren't experiencing stress daily. Even the stress that you would consider good stress can be damaging to your health.

If anyone might need help, it would probably be you. Judging only what from what you've said, I wouldn't be surprised if you have a sensation-seeking neurology.

Also, like many long-time players of FFXI, I had a compulsion problem (what in the game world would be considered obsessive completionism). So don't assume that many of the long-time players enjoy the game as much as they have other reasons for continuing to play.
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#287 Feb 01 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
These boards have enough FFXI fanbois trying to convince everyone else that hardcore is the way to go and anyone who feels otherwise is somehow a lesser person.

Quoted for the ******* truth.

Trust me, I can be the most elitist person ever (ask anyone who's posted in the WoW forums here), but even I'd like to see a more casual version of FFXI.
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#288 Feb 01 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Also, like many long-time players of FFXI, I had a compulsion problem (what in the game world would be considered obsessive completionism). So don't assume that many of the long-time players enjoy the game as much as they have other reasons for continuing to play.

You shush, don't make me and all the other addicts face reality and the cold hard truths of our situations both past and present. Don't you know that denial is the best way to continue having a problem? =P


Anywho, why are we all getting so uppity about this, given a lack of a skill-independent experience system, any death penalty will be decidedly different from what we were used to in FFXI. I'm also fairly certain that the devs already have something in mind, and my guess is that any changes to be made to that system will only come in the form of tweaking the severity up or down as guided by the beta tests.
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#289 Feb 03 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe to prevent zombie tactics they should put limitations on raising people instead of using a penalty. Limit raise to where it can only be cast on party members and have it generate enough hate that your healer will die if they throw out too many of them. They could also not include reraise in the game.
#290 Feb 03 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Or, in my case it was another week of merit parties that disbanded 20 minutes after I got there after spending hours just trying to get a group as an RNG/NIN in a TP burn obsessed community...a week that also included a failed synth on a Hakutaku Eye Cluster for some poor BST who, having farmed all of the eyes himself (22+ hours worth) had demonstrated all the skill and perseverance a reasonable person might expect just to get the items for the spawn trigger only to have them all vanish in an explosion of white light in the hands of a 100 skill alchemist who had little/no control over success/failure.


I thought it was a Chigoe?
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#291 Feb 03 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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LeadSalad wrote:
Maybe to prevent zombie tactics they should put limitations on raising people instead of using a penalty. Limit raise to where it can only be cast on party members and have it generate enough hate that your healer will die if they throw out too many of them. They could also not include reraise in the game.


Or just make it where you can't raise in combat...
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#292 Feb 03 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe to prevent zombie tactics they should put limitations on raising people instead of using a penalty. Limit raise to where it can only be cast on party members and have it generate enough hate that your healer will die if they throw out too many of them. They could also not include reraise in the game.


I see way too many loopholes in this solution. I also don't see the point in taking stuff out like reraise, when a death penalty totally accomplishes the same goal, and without taking out stuff from your game. One loophole in this solution just off the top of my head is you raise someone then logoff (to reset hate), then log back on, rejoin party, raise somebody else and repeat. Logging off to reset hate was already used in FFXi, and that would be an easy way to get past your solution. You could say well don't let people be able to be invited to parties while in combat but then what if you disconnect? it wouldn't make sense if you couldn't rejoin a party just because your connection acted up.

Quote:
Or just make it where you can't raise in combat...


This is pretty much the only solution I have heard that would stop zombie tactics, but I totally disagree with it. This is (as they stated) is a Final Fantasy Game first, then it is an MMO. They are looking to make the best "Final Fantasy" Game (direct quote). This doesn't mean that everything has to be the same because every FF game had some differences, but there are certain things that stayed constant. Being able to raise a fallen teammate during combat is as much of FF as gil, and chocobos are. Now in single player FFs if you were the last person alive in your group and you died, then of course you lost (because there was no character alive to raise you). Taking out the ability to raise during combat would take out a huge FF feel to the game, and would basically go against what they said about they are "aiming to make the best final fantasy game first and foremost".

I mean some bosses (even a few in FFXI), it was guaranteed that somebody was going to die. It would make no sense at all if you couldn't raise and recover. Single Player FF's had a lot of bosses that had certain moves that would automatically kill a person in your group, and part of the fight was being able to recover and withstand their blows. FFXI had a few bosses/mobs that used spells like Doom, and Death, and it would make no sense at all if you couldn't raise during combat. Its just apart of the FF brand, and I don't see that changing.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 12:56pm by HocusP

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 12:56pm by HocusP
#293 Feb 03 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Or, in my case it was another week of merit parties that disbanded 20 minutes after I got there after spending hours just trying to get a group as an RNG/NIN in a TP burn obsessed community...a week that also included a failed synth on a Hakutaku Eye Cluster for some poor BST who, having farmed all of the eyes himself (22+ hours worth) had demonstrated all the skill and perseverance a reasonable person might expect just to get the items for the spawn trigger only to have them all vanish in an explosion of white light in the hands of a 100 skill alchemist who had little/no control over success/failure.


I thought it was a Chigoe?


Lol we'll never truly know why Aurelius quit, it changes every day.
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#294 Feb 03 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Being able to raise a fallen teammate during combat is as much of FF as gil, and chocobos are. Now in single player FFs if you were the last person alive in your group and you died, then of course you lost (because there was no character alive to raise you). Taking out the ability to raise during combat would take out a huge FF feel to the game, and would basically go against what they said about they are "aiming to make the best final fantasy game first and foremost"



You could make that argument for whatever you wanted.

I don't see you weeping for 'penultimate black magic spell that renders all others obscelete' Meteor/Ultima. Wheres your passionate case for Summons that have long grandiose cinemas when they're summoned or do their signature attack? Howabout armor that doesn't visually change one iota from gamestart to gameend? What about turn-based combat?



Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:12pm by Zemzelette
#295 Feb 03 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sure SE learned that logging to reset hate is a bad thing, too. Let's hope it isn't possible again. Not sure what that has to do with death penalties or where it was really used beyond kited Kirin fights, though.
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#296 Feb 03 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok then, in order to raise in combat let one (or however many) of the healer classes have an in-combat raise that is on a cooldown. There would still exist regular raise spells that work out of combat without any cooldown of course.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:33pm by NeithanTheWronged
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#297 Feb 03 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Raise sickness:

I think it's a bad way to solve a problem. I think it's there to prevent Death from becoming a minor penalty in big group battles. If it was not there one could die, be raised and continue fighting multiple times in battle. Some might even like this playing style, but for me I would rather have it be avoided.

Raise sickness for soloing is annoying however. Just waiting / wasting time sucks when nothing important is happening. It does not provide extra value to the game.

If it was up to me I would change the way raise sickness works: Instead of having a weakness debuff after raising, provide a debuff that makes you unable to raise again within 5-10 minutes. This way it wouldn't affect soloing, while preventing Death from becoming a minor penalty in big battles.


Basically everyone would be able to get a raise, but if they ***** up again they have to wait 5-10min as a corpse. No zombie stuff, but no tank makes 1 mistake and it's a sure wipe either.
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#298 Feb 03 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
I'm sure SE learned that logging to reset hate is a bad thing, too. Let's hope it isn't possible again. Not sure what that has to do with death penalties or where it was really used beyond kited Kirin fights, though.


PW. When you make a boss and all it's summons astral flow everybody on it's hate list... Kirin is probably not a good example as that was more like 2004 tactics.

It is related to the death penalty discussion b/c somebody tried to present an alternative solution where a healer will gain hate and die from casting too many raises to prevent zombie tactics, where a death penalty can serve the same exact purpose to dissuade zombie tactics b/c each death comes with a price.
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#300 Feb 03 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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The server could be made to remember what party your in and how much hate you have. And you shouldn't be able to add or kick party members during combat because kicking someone when they die and inviting a fresh player is a bs tactic too.
#301 Feb 03 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
I've always wanted death to be a mini-zone.

Whenever you die you end up on the Final Fantasy version of the river Styx.


This actually sounds like a very cool idea, something that adds a bit of "storyline" and "atmosphere" to the game.

The only problem is how this would affect the game mechanics in a game that is very "community"-oriented. It gives me shivers thinking about how this would affect a party of players that was trying to get something done. Just think about how much disruption and annoyance there is when somebody in an experience party D/Cs! I know for one that I tend to be a bit impatient in these situations...It would be horrible to have to wait for someone to cycle through a "death cutscene" that everyone has seen countless times. And it would be even MORE horrible if you knew you were THAT GUY that's holding everyone up while you're fiddling around trying to pay your "death tax."

In short, to comment on the whole topic, we have to keep in mind that the "death penalty" as it is in FFXI not only penalizes the player that dies, but also the party members that he/she is with. It will be interesting to see how SE addresses this particular aspect in FFXIV -- how the "death penalty" affects OTHER players.
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