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be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#302 Feb 03 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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The server could be made to remember what party your in and how much hate you have. And you shouldn't be able to add or kick party members during combat because kicking someone when they die and inviting a fresh player is a bs tactic too.


Sound good on paper, but not possible. You expect the server to remember what 5-7k people did on every single monster and how much hate they had, even when they not on the game. A mob cant hit a character thats not on the game, and you have to remember that while that person is logged off, another person is gaining hate anyway. Lets be real here, you expect the mob to remember a logged off character's hate and jump off the tank and go hit that person right when he log back on.

If a person disconnects then they can't come back in the party, that sound like a stupid system to me. Your tank happens to disconnect during a fight and now can't rejoin the party. I find it amazing how some people want way worst stuff in the game (like this for example), just to get rid of a death penalty that would totally solve the problem without any possible loopholes being found. People disconnect while in combat all the time (dynamis, and all kinds of events) and this could and probably would totally ruin the game.

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I'm sure SE learned that logging to reset hate is a bad thing, too. Let's hope it isn't possible again. Not sure what that has to do with death penalties or where it was really used beyond kited Kirin fights, though.


Kirin, lol that was so long ago I can't even remember logging off to reset hate on him. Somebody else already explained what it has to do with the death penalty. It was used a lot if you had a great small knit Ls. To do hnms like Jorm with 16-18 members, and with the blms as damage dealers (I was part of the blms), we used log off to reset hate all the time. Not only Jorm but Tiamat, and other big Hnms. If you were killing them with 25-30+ people then you had no need to log off, but for smaller linkshells it was a commonly used strategy. We had log off rotations (lol), I mean it was organized.

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Ok then, in order to raise in combat let one (or however many) of the healer classes have an in-combat raise that is on a cooldown. There would still exist regular raise spells that work out of combat without any cooldown of course.


It took me 2 seconds to come up with a huge loophole in your first solution. You have to remember that people (smart people), will be looking hard for loopholes around everything. Then reraise would have to be removed or you could keep spamming that and zombie killing. People bringing extra whms outside of the combat party would have to be addressed as well. What is stopping them from having a person that is just watching, keep raising people (remember you said out of combat raise has no cooldown). I mean all this is quick loopholes I found in 2 minutes, and things you wouldn't have to worry about with a death penalty.



Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 7:15pm by HocusP
#303 Feb 03 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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It is related to the death penalty discussion b/c somebody tried to present an alternative solution where a healer will gain hate and die from casting too many raises to prevent zombie tactics, where a death penalty can serve the same exact purpose to dissuade zombie tactics b/c each death comes with a price.


How is that the same? I'd much rather have the healer be virtually guaranteed a death when they cast Raise than everyone who dies loses xp.

I guess you're thinking of it as a deterrent to death, which it's not (death is its own deterrent). It's simply a way of preventing victories through zombie zergs.

Other options include making the MP cost very high, the recast very long-- there are a number of ways, but it's a decision that has to be made within the context of the other game mechanics. As usual, you can't use FFXI as a parallel for the mechanics of XIV.

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#304 Feb 03 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
The server could be made to remember what party your in and how much hate you have. And you shouldn't be able to add or kick party members during combat because kicking someone when they die and inviting a fresh player is a bs tactic too.


Sound good on paper, but not possible. You expect the server to remember what 5-7k people did on every single monster and how much hate they had, even when they not on the game.


Every mob has a threat list. When the mob is passive (ie. not in combat) that threat list is nil. When that mob is in combat, that threat list includes every player character that has done anything that would generate threat on that mob. It would be a simple matter for SE to adjust the code (even in FFXI) so that a player who disconnects (or goes the cheeseball route and intentionally logs out from the game trying to dump hate) so that it preserves the threat value of that character until either the character logs back in, the mob dies, or the mob resets (ie. returns to passive because the group wiped). We're not talking about every mob having to have a pre-coded slot for every single character on a given server; just changing the code so that it doesn't drop a D/C'd character from the threat table.

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Kirin, lol that was so long ago I can't even remember logging off to reset hate on him. Somebody else already explained what it has to do with the death penalty. It was used a lot if you had a great small knit Ls. To do hnms like Jorm with 16-18 members, and with the blms as damage dealers (I was part of the blms), we used log off to reset hate all the time. Not only Jorm but Tiamat, and other big Hnms. If you were killing them with 25-30+ people then you had no need to log off, but for smaller linkshells it was a commonly used strategy. We had log off rotations (lol), I mean it was organized.


It's a lame mechanic. You're circumventing the game mechanics in order to accomplish would would have otherwise been more difficult or impossible. Be in it to win it or stay out.

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It took me 2 seconds to come up with a huge loophole in your first solution. You have to remember that people (smart people), will be looking hard for loopholes around everything. Then reraise would have to be removed or you could keep spamming that and zombie killing. People bringing extra whms outside of the combat party would have to be addressed as well. What is stopping them from having a person that is just watching, keep raising people (remember you said out of combat raise has no cooldown). I mean all this is quick loopholes I found in 2 minutes, and things you wouldn't have to worry about with a death penalty.


Put Reraise effects on a cooldown as well. Problem solved. Other games already do it. You have select spells to revive a dead character that only work if the person casting it is not flagged as in combat, spells that can be used in-combat on lengthy cooldowns (10-20 mins+) and spells that function the same as reraise that also have lengthy cooldowns. The purpose is to allow groups to recover from the occasional mistake but the mechanics to do so are tuned so that you have to use them selectively and once they've been used once, you're SOL if people keep dying. That is a far more effective tactic to prevent zombie approaches to encounters and doesn't have the needlessly punitive feel to it that xp loss does.
#305 Feb 04 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Haha, using PW to justify hate-logging? Yeah, get back to me when more than a fraction of a percent of the XI playerbase is fighting him. I'm gonna call the whole weakened CASA Cannonball the new SEBW for this, too. Not intended, but lazy players came up with it because they either can't figure the mob out or insist on taking as few people as possible. I'm honestly wondering why the pro-penalty crowd aren't getting uppity over people using hate-logging to avoid their justified death because their alliance wasn't functioning cohesively and you apparently hadn't learned your role by letting the tanks tank. Even on Tiamat with her hate resetting roar, we'd never log anyone and probably half the time were killing her with 12 or less. We weren't a shell full of relics, either.

Otherwise, Aur more or less explained hate tables. If everyone's offline or dead, then a mob will just reset. Sure, you might live to fight another day if you logged, but you're starting over. Funny how this is no different than a lack of harsh penalty in situations where you could actually get back to what you were looking to do.

Hey guys, I got it, logging off sends you back to your homepoint. Show of hands? Got disconnected? Aww, too bad. We know it's not your fault, but we gotta be needlessly draconian because people don't learn things and we get wet from punishing ourselves! Go play WoW if you don't like it~

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 9:25am by Seriha
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#306 Feb 08 2010 at 5:31 AM Rating: Default
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No death penalty except weakened.

Too many people are too afraid to die for the cause because of the EXP Loss.

As for R1-R3 stuff, R3 lessens weakened time.

After Playing STO and I am enjoying it (rare for me to enjoy MMO)
I like FFXI cos it was different but after spending all this time playing it I am no longer enjoying the content.

I enjoy sky still and Dyna, and leveling but everything feels too much hard work for little reward.

I might get rate downs for the above but I am annoyed how things just have not got easier - exp has but other things with drop rates - TH4 seems a must have which lets face it - is rare.
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#307 Feb 15 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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it would make sense if we lost gil to certain monsters when we died.. like a goblin? but if we died to a rabbit and lost gil that wouldnt make sense.. maybe food? your character getting jacked when dying is very possible
#308 Feb 15 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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I kind of like the EXP loss and the weakened state. It gave me a reason to find only good players to group up with and not just anyone. However,I do not like how you can be deleveld.

In that other game you just lose 10% durability and its like brushing dirt off your shoulder.
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#309 Feb 16 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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I have to believe there will be something in the way of recoverable loss akin to exp loss that will keep players playing a certain class after they have completed whatever post-max level advancement available to them (merits etc...). There will almost have to be something that keeps a person on a class other than dusting it off for end game activities or armor maintenance, and you can only add so much post-max advancement before things become too powerful.
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