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PvP in FFXIV - {Yes, Please}Follow

#52 Jan 29 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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WoW takes less than a week of play time to get to 80.


And that, for me, is the reason I only played WoW for about a month before deciding it was an infinitely forgettable waste of my time.

All MMO's are technically a waste of my time, but if I'm going to waste time I'd at least like to take something away from it.

The reason I think some people consider FF11 "boring" is because it actually required adventuring. Adventuring in and adventure game? How Novel.

In 11, to get a quest you had to talk to random NPC's not just the ones with a shiny thing over their head, which also means you get to talk to all the cool story NPC's that don't really affect the game but fill in some nifty history thereby enhancing the game. The fame and rank systems gave you a reason to quest other than just to grind XP. But because of this need to adventure and the fact that I had to actually be engaged with the world of the game is what made me love 11 and remember my time in Vana'diel. I can remember a lot of the quests I did in 11, I remember some of the NPC's by name, some of the cutscenes, and who could forget all those milestone long haul "unlock" moments. In 11 I might have only finished 1 or 2 long quests in a day, but at the end of that day I actually felt like i had accomplished something and was happy with my minuscule progress. And since almost every quest was a unique experience they were ALL fun(except for the frustratingly difficult ones, lol). And this is why every day in Vana'Diel was different and significant in some way as a gaming experience.

My time in WoW is almost completely forgotten, mostly due to it's ease of play. I don't remember any of the details, couldn't tell you the name of a single NPC, couldn't tell you the story content of a single quest. But I do remember how playing WoW went because every day was the same.

Enter Town
Run around without talking to anyone who didn't have a thing floating over their head.
Talk to all random NPC's with quest markers, accept quests without reading.
Kil 10 of something, kill 10 of something else, kill 20 of another thing, kill 10 of something else.
Return to town once all necessary items had been collected, 30 minutes later.
Talk to all NPC's with Quest markers without reading, get rewards.
Sell.
Train.
Rinse.
Repeat until lvl 80, make new character.
Return to top.

After a few weeks of this I was done.

For some people gaming is about #'s, how much XP did I get? what's my DPS? how many levels did I get today? These are the questions asked by dedicated players of WoW and it's many lookalikes(There are also a few of these in 11, but their population seamed small).

For others Gaming is about story. Can I unlock PLD today? Wonder if I'm strong enough to make it to Norg yet? How are my LS mates doin today? These are the questions I think a lot of 11 players enjoy.

If there is one constant thing about every MMO is that XP happens. You'll get XP every day if you're playing the game. Not all the XP has to happen right now. You play the game in order to play the game. You'll hit 75, does it have to be tommorow? I played 11 for 5 years and never hit 75, because I was more entertained by the game itself and the players I played with that I was with the shiny numbers on my stat screen.

Give me a long slow grinding slog that's actually fun every day anytime.
If all you want if a rapid XP PvP gankfest, there are 11 million players worldwide who want to play with you...in a different game.
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#53 Jan 29 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Battlegrounds in WoW were awesome, everything else PVP based was the worst, absolute worst thing i have ever seen in my life.

I do not enjoy being "ganked" by some douche @ max level when i am 20-30. Sure it nets him no honor but they do it anyways. If you kill someone they log off and log on with their alt, camp your body and ruin your life. If not they have their friends come and gank you. Or if he's max he just keeps coming back killing you and making you life a living ****... why play?

Complain to WoW... what do they say? "Oh well you should get your friends and gank him back"... are you f'in kidding me? How is that a solution, i play when all my friends are off and why would they waste their time coming all the way to me to kill some guy with too much time on his hands.

Open world PVP in WoW for me, is the biggest downfall of the game. If someone of the opposite alliance sees you, they must kill you. There is no option there is no choice... they must. It's very rare someone is on the same track as you, waves and we go about leveling. Personally honor in the world serves very little purpose for the time you waste, but no one realizes it.

I am all for event based PvP, but realistically i don't want to waste my time fending off retards when i could be playing, enjoying myself and actually doing something. Cause in the end this is a level based game, it is not an FPS... what do you get at the end of an FPS when you've killed every single person? Nothing, a new match.
#54 Jan 29 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I would think open world PVP wouldn't work in FF purely to the fact that the exp loss on death would infuriate most players. Getting ganked 3 times with an 8% exp loss each time, I know it wouldn't sit well with me. So then they would have to add PVP mechanics to the game to balance it out, Id rather have them perfect the PVE and just do instanced PVP like before.
#55 Jan 29 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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You guys can chill out. PvP will not be in FFXIV in the free-for-all esque form the OP wants. It wouldn't fit with anything in Squares history nor the story line in FFXIV. I don't doubt their may be some small PvP of some type on a small controlled scale. Buts seriously, you're asking to suddenly insert PvP as a major element into a game that has been PvE centric from the start. Silly.

Im not against PvP, I love PvP. Its just not going to have a large place in FFXIV. Maybe in a small mini-game type setting, but not as a major element.

Also, people complaining about being griefed makes me LOL. World PvP in WoW was a major time waster and source of fun for me, I even enjoyed the griefing aspect, both sides of it.
#56 Jan 29 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Ultimately:

If you want a quality PvP game, you must balance for it.
If you want a quality PvE game, you must balance for it.

Balancing for one will affect the other.


I've played WoW for a long time and seriously the whole balaning for PvP got on my nerfes and got me to quit.

I don't mind Balance Patches at all but changing the whole aspect of a job, the whole play style and that every few month is just killing me.
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#57 Jan 29 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
Sarcasm not required. He's right from an objective subjective viewpoint.
ftfy

Your understanding of objective/subjective is wrong, or you don't understand my point of view.
objective opinions are based on unbiased facts, subjective opinions are based on personal interpretations/feelings.
This:
Quote:
If you mean long, drawn-out, and boring, then yes, you're right.

Otherwise, WoW completely trumps FFXI PvE in every category.
is a clearly subjective opinion.

Had you said, "WoW must be better because it has more long term subscribers" or "WoW must be more interesting because blizzard produces more content updates/expansions in the same time span" it might have been interpretable as objective, but you have an obvious bias (I burned out and got bored of WoW in under 3 months each time I played, but I've been a FFXI subscriber for the better part of ~7yrs so your/my subjective feelings are not shared).
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#58 Jan 29 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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so hey guys.
sorry maybe this has been mentioned before but i havent read all posts.

I would love to see PvP in FFXIV but not like in WoW running around killing anyone anytime.
I would love to have a Colosseum, right in a majoy town (like Jeuno or Aht Urghan in FFXI).
The thing is in the Colosseum there could be fights just 1on1 or guild against guild and we should be able to walk in and just spectate them fighting. This would help against the boring waiting time for an invite.
So my idea is there could be a ranking of all players and if u as a visitor walk in the colosseum as soon as you son there could be a pop-up list with all available fight and their ranking right behind their names.
Maybe this is impossible but i would like to have a feeling just like the visitors in the old Rome had, when their gladiators fought.
Good evening and please forgive me my englisch because im a german student.
#59 Jan 29 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't get me wrong, getting a new expansion every 2 years or so with FFXI was cool, and they were decent (alright, not really compared to WoW), but if you think that FFXI can hold a candle to WoW in terms of the depth of the game, you're smoking something really really good.


lolobjective?


Quote:
But as for long and drawn-out? Yeah, FFXI is that.

WoW takes less than a week of play time to get to 80. It takes a lot more than that to go from 1-75 in FFXI. Longer and more drawn-out.

Bosses easily trump FFXI; the simple fact that Blizzard has actually added in tons of new dungeons over FFXI (how many people still do sky bosses, and how relevant is the gear that those bosses drop?) seals the deal. Sky is the equivalent of tier 1 in WoW. I was doing that 4-5 years ago, right after I quit FFXI after dying like 6,000 times on AV.

If I came back to FFXI, having had some of the best RNG gear before I quit, I gather from talking to friends that my gear would still be pretty relevant. Maybe one minor upgrade or two, but other than that, I could still hang with the big DPSers after getting the hang of the game again.

See, had I quit WoW 5 years ago and come back, I would still be level 60 with tier 1 gear. WoW is now on tier 10, with completely new mechanics and 20 more levels, on top of dual spec, flying mounts, clod weather flying, etc.

This is all PvE content.

So yeah, FFXI has the best PvE content.

You may like the PvE content more in FFXI, but there's more content and more development in WoW. There's no possible way to argue that FFXI objectively has better content than WoW.


Edit: something I may not have made clear: Sky = tier 1 only in chronology. You pointing out that your ranger gear would still be respectable is what I mean. People do still do sky on a regular basis, because a lot of the gear is still relevelnt.

Something strange is happening in your post. You seem to be supporting your argument that the content in WoW is better and more abundent than in FFXI in order to deduce that its PvE is better. I won't touch better/worse content, because it really is subjective, but you point out that blizzard is always adding new tiers to their endgame. Contrasted with SE adding new event types with a mix of better/same/worse gear than chronologically older content (granted, more of the same/worse gear as of late).

When WoW releases tier, what, 9 now? There are, and forgive me if I am oversimplifying things and leaving out details, but only 2 sets of relevent gear that any class will have. Their Tier 8 gear that they completed months ago, and the new pieces of Tier 9 gear that they will soon get. All other gear, for the most part, is obsolete. One could level a character to 80, get it some decent dungeon gear, and jump right into the newer tiers of raiding, no need to go through tiers 1-7 first. It looks to me, from where I'm standing, that all WoW has for PvE endgame, is a half dozen dungeons to run over and over day after day.

On the other hand, HNMs, land kings, sky and dynamis, content that was all in the game with the first expansion, included in the NA release, all still has relevent gear. Not every piece, but every job has SOMETHING from each of those that would be very nice to have. In addition, Sea and Limbus added with CoP, Nyzul, Salvage, and ZNM added with ToAU, and, to some extent, the new systems added in WotG, all give the player a reason to invest in spending time doing them to obtain unique gear that is still useful today.

At least half of WoWs endgame PvE content is obsolete, by their own design. It's hard to say that a game has more content when it's entirely pointless to do it. And honestly, if we're including outdated, pointless, never used content, FFXI had a boatload of that too, just nobody mentions the eco warrior missions, legitimately good storylines/missions, chocobo raising, pankration, Moblin Maze Mongers, and I'm sure a slew of other stuff I can't even think of.

So in the end, I guess what I'm saying is I don't agree with your opinion. Normally that's fine, but don't try and be objective when it's impossible to be. I'm not objective either, I have a clear bias as well, but I don't think I've presented anything genuinely false, and if I did I meant it as no more than an opinion.

If scope of content = good PvE, you hard pressed to say there's not much to do in FFXI
quality of content is an entirely different beast. FFXI is a slower game, that much is objective. If you like a game with a faster pace, clearly WoW will be more appealing.

We can agree on one thing at least, The Red Wings are awesome.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 2:24pm by Xeurb
#60 Jan 29 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally liked that the early gear and areas in FFXI are still relevant as the game goes on. Better gear was gained from more difficult events rather than the "newest" events and you could mix gear from all these to get a set you were comfortable with.

If I'm just gonna throw away the stuff I earned when the next batch comes out then I'm not gonna be really that eager to work for it.
#61 Jan 29 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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The reason I think some people consider FF11 "boring" is because it actually required adventuring. Adventuring in and adventure game? How Novel.


Are you sure it wasn't because the gameplay was dry and monotonous? That progressing was like working on an assembly line? That even after you reached 75, you were welcomed with an equal amount of assembly line gameplay in the form of merits, only even more mundane? That even the exciting events usually required you to participate in them until they were utterly boring because the drop rates were horrendous?

Yeah, I think there are probably about 3 people who consider it boring for the reason you gave. Which I'll grant you, is technically "some."

====

Anyway, PVP can definitely add a lot to a game, provided it is optional and the PVP/PVE balances are kept separate. However, there has to be that depth of gameplay that I keep talking about. As examples:

Rock, scissors, paper and tic-tac-toe are PVP!
Arm wrestling is PVP!
How deep are these contests, and for how long do people realistically play them?

Chess is PVP.
Boxing is PVP.
Just like tic-tac-toe and arm wrestling, these contests bring a human opponent.

So PVP doesn't automatically make a game good in the long haul-- only if it also brings many elements of strategy and/or human conditioning (fast fists or quick thumbs). FFXI lacks a lot in these respects, though the teamwork elements manage to (barely) salvage it.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Jan 29 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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I have no interest in talking about X-MMO vs. Y-MMO but just because previous games used the same stats for PvE and PvP doesn't mean future games will. If you don't want a game that tries to balance PvE against PvP make two different sets of stats and abilities for each one. In that way you don't have to worry about messing with PvE balance when you tweak the Cowboy-Ninja-Warlock class.

At some point I'd imagine this game will have Player Vs. Player. It may not be combat but I wouldn't rule out races, obstacle courses, and similar mini-games. (darn Kachi beat me to it).

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 12:50pm by baelnic
#63 Jan 29 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Rock, scissors, paper and tic-tac-toe are PVP!


Sorry... Tic-Tac-Toe is not PvP if you know how it works. At least in Rock, Paper, Scissors (or whatever order you wish to put them in), there's an element of chance.

[/endoftechnicalrant]
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#64 Jan 29 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The whole "if you know how it works" clause dictates that it is PVP. Like I said, it's not very good PVP.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Jan 29 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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There are two types of players in tic-tac-toe: Those that know the way the game works and those that don't. If you're pitting one versus the other, it's not a fair challenge (aka lightweight vs. heavyweight). So, in an all out fair game... yeah, it's not gonna work.
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#66 Jan 29 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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Xeurb wrote:
Quote:
But as for long and drawn-out? Yeah, FFXI is that.

WoW takes less than a week of play time to get to 80. It takes a lot more than that to go from 1-75 in FFXI. Longer and more drawn-out.

Bosses easily trump FFXI; the simple fact that Blizzard has actually added in tons of new dungeons over FFXI (how many people still do sky bosses, and how relevant is the gear that those bosses drop?) seals the deal. Sky is the equivalent of tier 1 in WoW. I was doing that 4-5 years ago, right after I quit FFXI after dying like 6,000 times on AV.

If I came back to FFXI, having had some of the best RNG gear before I quit, I gather from talking to friends that my gear would still be pretty relevant. Maybe one minor upgrade or two, but other than that, I could still hang with the big DPSers after getting the hang of the game again.

See, had I quit WoW 5 years ago and come back, I would still be level 60 with tier 1 gear. WoW is now on tier 10, with completely new mechanics and 20 more levels, on top of dual spec, flying mounts, clod weather flying, etc.

This is all PvE content.

So yeah, FFXI has the best PvE content.

You may like the PvE content more in FFXI, but there's more content and more development in WoW. There's no possible way to argue that FFXI objectively has better content than WoW.

Edit: something I may not have made clear: Sky = tier 1 only in chronology. You pointing out that your ranger gear would still be respectable is what I mean. People do still do sky on a regular basis, because a lot of the gear is still relevelnt.

Something strange is happening in your post. You seem to be supporting your argument that the content in WoW is better and more abundent than in FFXI in order to deduce that its PvE is better. I won't touch better/worse content, because it really is subjective, but you point out that blizzard is always adding new tiers to their endgame. Contrasted with SE adding new event types with a mix of better/same/worse gear than chronologically older content (granted, more of the same/worse gear as of late).

When WoW releases tier, what, 9 now? There are, and forgive me if I am oversimplifying things and leaving out details, but only 2 sets of relevent gear that any class will have. Their Tier 8 gear that they completed months ago, and the new pieces of Tier 9 gear that they will soon get. All other gear, for the most part, is obsolete. One could level a character to 80, get it some decent dungeon gear, and jump right into the newer tiers of raiding, no need to go through tiers 1-7 first. It looks to me, from where I'm standing, that all WoW has for PvE endgame, is a half dozen dungeons to run over and over day after day.

On the other hand, HNMs, land kings, sky and dynamis, content that was all in the game with the first expansion, included in the NA release, all still has relevent gear. Not every piece, but every job has SOMETHING from each of those that would be very nice to have. In addition, Sea and Limbus added with CoP, Nyzul, Salvage, and ZNM added with ToAU, and, to some extent, the new systems added in WotG, all give the player a reason to invest in spending time doing them to obtain unique gear that is still useful today.

The thing is, that there are 22 relevant dungeons in WoW currently, and of those you have seven 10/25 man raids.

Better PvE is having new and exciting content, not farming content that you've been playing for 7 years.

The simple fact that I could come back after 5 years outside the game and still have some of the best gear speaks to how bad PvE is in FFXI.

Elmyrsun wrote:
My time in WoW is almost completely forgotten, mostly due to it's ease of play. I don't remember any of the details, couldn't tell you the name of a single NPC, couldn't tell you the story content of a single quest. But I do remember how playing WoW went because every day was the same.

Enter Town
Run around without talking to anyone who didn't have a thing floating over their head.
Talk to all random NPC's with quest markers, accept quests without reading.
Kil 10 of something, kill 10 of something else, kill 20 of another thing, kill 10 of something else.
Return to town once all necessary items had been collected, 30 minutes later.
Talk to all NPC's with Quest markers without reading, get rewards.
Sell.
Train.
Rinse.
Repeat until lvl 80, make new character.
Return to top.

Let's make one thing clear: leveling in FFXI is only challenging due to the fact that you NEED others to do it.

Also, I can make the same list for FFXI:
Wait in town to get an invite.
Find place to level.
Grind the same mob for hours on end, with no surprises other than maybe getting chain 23 instead of chain 22.
Rinse.
Repeat.
Get to level 75.
Change jobs.
Return to top.

Auftragskiller wrote:
Quote:
Ultimately:

If you want a quality PvP game, you must balance for it.
If you want a quality PvE game, you must balance for it.

Balancing for one will affect the other.


I've played WoW for a long time and seriously the whole balaning for PvP got on my nerfes and got me to quit.

I don't mind Balance Patches at all but changing the whole aspect of a job, the whole play style and that every few month is just killing me.

No classes have had their entire play style changed. They've had ability changes, but that's how a game progresses, and how Blizzard keeps balance.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 12:13pm by Theophany
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#67 Jan 29 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

If I came back to FFXI, having had some of the best RNG gear before I quit, I gather from talking to friends that my gear would still be pretty relevant. Maybe one minor upgrade or two, but other than that, I could still hang with the big DPSers after getting the hang of the game again.


A Kirin's Osode is still a solid piece of equipment, E-Body is still awesome, Optical hat still give the same stats, Noble's tunic still got refresh and +10% cure potency => I can take a break from FFXI for a year and if I had good equipment for a job I will still have good equipment when I come back. IMHO thats pretty solid, you login after a year and more or less can right jump in where you left.

Taking a break from a game that overhauls itself with a very fast speed leaves IMHO "bigger damage" then getting a solid piece of equipment and being able to use it for a very long time, maybe even till the server admins type in there last shutdown.

To be honest, FFXI had something similar from the start when you go to your moogle and change your job. Just that for my taste it was a lot more planable and you could make long-time goals that kept you going and playing.

All this is for me a big plus for FFXI, I am even so keen to say thats some nice thinking ahead of the planing and dev team, another aproach of course is to raise level cap with each expansion, making all your "hard" earned drops or even the way how you play a character obsolet.

Enough derail ;), I think the war between elezen and hyur from the past mentioned in the race descriptions does not give enough story from some real PvP content.

- in the Warcraft universe the war between the horde and the alliance is THE main point where the story evolves around and is the point why there is PvP in WoW
- Aion got this conflict between Asmodians and Elyos and all builds up around this
- Star Wars Galaxies is about Rebels against the Empire
- the PvE focused game LotRO gives the abbility to play on Saurons side and players can play a role in this conflict by choosing to play with them normal characters or go and play a monster and "go to war"

Hey, now looking at the list and specially at the LotRO version of PvP, maybe it would have been fun to able to create a yagudo or orc or whatever race from the beastmen you like best play have some fun.

My mainpoint about PvP in FF14 is still that in the main story of the game needs to be a big conflict between chooseable races/factions that gives a motivation to do PvP and I am just afraid that everyone who is waiting for a big focus on PvP in FF14 will be very dissapointed but I am sure there will be some sort of PvP content or alike in the way of Conquest, Ballista, Brenner.

Sorry for a lot of text :)

Cheers,
Fro
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#68 Jan 29 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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frodito wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:

If I came back to FFXI, having had some of the best RNG gear before I quit, I gather from talking to friends that my gear would still be pretty relevant. Maybe one minor upgrade or two, but other than that, I could still hang with the big DPSers after getting the hang of the game again.


A Kirin's Osode is still a solid piece of equipment, E-Body is still awesome, Optical hat still give the same stats, Noble's tunic still got refresh and +10% cure potency => I can take a break from FFXI for a year and if I had good equipment for a job I will still have good equipment when I come back. IMHO thats pretty solid, you login after a year and more or less can right jump in where you left.

Taking a break from a game that overhauls itself with a very fast speed leaves IMHO "bigger damage" then getting a solid piece of equipment and being able to use it for a very long time, maybe even till the server admins type in there last shutdown.

Yeah, except that it doesn't take a week or a month to get one drop in WoW; I could come back today and be geared up enough to go into Icecrown in a week.

If I have the best gear (which I have a lot of), what purpose do I have to come back to FFXI? To experience the new content, but what after that, between the year or two it will take to release the new content? Repeat it endlessly?

That's boring as ****, sorry.
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#69 Jan 29 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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I love how a discussion on possible PvP in FFXIV turned into a discussion of PvE in WoW. I think this is obvious evidence that we're in desperate need of new official info regarding FFXIV. :D
#70 Jan 29 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, except that it doesn't take a week or a month to get one drop in WoW; I could come back today and be geared up enough to go into Icecrown in a week.

If I have the best gear (which I have a lot of), what purpose do I have to come back to FFXI? To experience the new content, but what after that, between the year or two it will take to release the new content? Repeat it endlessly?

That's boring as ****, sorry.


And it applies to the other game too, in the opposite direction. If I quit wow a week after wrath came out and I hit 80, I could conceivably come back, and in a week be able to do whatever 3.3 raid dungeon was added, and a few weeks after have the gear I wanted from that, then what? Keep doing the same dungeon endlessly for no tangible reward?

Quote:
That's boring as ****, sorry.


Sure, Bliz will release the next raid dungeon before SE will release a new endgame event, but it still gives me no more reason to reactivate my account and play patch 3.3, I could just as easily wait.

I know people who basically do this too. Cancel their wow account until the next patch, activate for a month, consume the new content, and cancel it again because there is 'nothing to do'. It's a very small sample I'm talking about, I'm sure, but I imagine part of the reason blizzard releases content so frequently is because they've designed it to be consumed by the players very quickly, and if they went 9 months without adding anything at all, a lot of players would be ******* and a good chunk would quit in the downtime. SE took the polar opposite end of the spectrum. It might actually take you a year or two to experience all the content that's been added. They designed their content to take so bloody long that almost nobody could complete it (I'm looking at you, relic weapons/absolute virtue), because most sane people would give up.

Neither is best here, and I guess, since this is a FFXIV discussion, maybe we should make it relevent. Do wow players agree that game content taking a bit longer to play through compared to wow would be a good idea? Do FFXI players agree that taking 7 seconds to swing a 2h weapon is just a tad slow as far as gameplay is concerned, and a 5% drop rate on a 21+ hr spawn is a little extreme? A balance between the two is probably very tricky to hit, but looks to be necessary to please the playerbase.
#71 Jan 29 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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PvP is fine but why do PvP maps? Cuts entire zones out of the game for players who don't want to PvP and they may contain quests and other things needed to play the game. If you're going to do pvp heres the suggestion. Make it a sport liek in FFXI but more readily available for everyone. And/or have a coliseum where it becomes more like a bloodsport tournament. Where people enter the tournament and the winner receives a prize and all participants receive a small prize for entering. PVP zones are lame... they allow for too many ******* to camp out and ambush people who are merely passing by and sometimes people just want to move through the zone...
#72 Jan 29 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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I think a PvP system could work if there was a safeguard in place. Turn on /blockaid and nobody could gank you. However, if you were fighting this person and you try to /blockaid because your losing, too bad. By having a safeguard to protect abuse, PvP can work in that regard. If you kill someone who has buddies, well that was your choice to fight so that's your fault.

The other problem in PvP I hear is there is never any balance between classes. In FFXI, RDM is the best job easily and I have myself tanked though 5~6 people thanks to my tricks. That's just not balanced and not fun for most people. Nobody was stupid enough to challenge me 1 on 1 because they stood no chance. I hear these problems exist in many MMO's and that's a real problem especially if you can be ganked for it.
#73 Jan 29 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Do wow players agree that game content taking a bit longer to play through compared to wow would be a good idea? Do FFXI players agree that taking 7 seconds to swing a 2h weapon is just a tad slow as far as gameplay is concerned, and a 5% drop rate on a 21+ hr spawn is a little extreme? A balance between the two is probably very tricky to hit, but looks to be necessary to please the playerbase.


Now we're getting somewhere! This is the truth IMHO!
Something in the middle of both would be golden.

Quote:
PVP zones are lame... they allow for too many ******* to camp out and ambush people who are merely passing by and sometimes people just want to move through the zone...


Could get around that by either adding a PvP Flag or by positioning the zones in a way that no one has to pass thru or have to do missions/quests there.

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#74 Jan 29 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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No classes have had their entire play style changed
bullsh*t

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Repeat it endlessly?
As opposed to only doing whatever the newest area over and over every week whether you like it or not, because the previous hastily thrown together -spamthis- area instantly becomes worthless every time they update?

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 5:37pm by shintasama
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#75 Jan 29 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Default
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Xeurb wrote:
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Yeah, except that it doesn't take a week or a month to get one drop in WoW; I could come back today and be geared up enough to go into Icecrown in a week.

If I have the best gear (which I have a lot of), what purpose do I have to come back to FFXI? To experience the new content, but what after that, between the year or two it will take to release the new content? Repeat it endlessly?

That's boring as ****, sorry.


And it applies to the other game too, in the opposite direction. If I quit wow a week after wrath came out and I hit 80, I could conceivably come back, and in a week be able to do whatever 3.3 raid dungeon was added, and a few weeks after have the gear I wanted from that, then what? Keep doing the same dungeon endlessly for no tangible reward?

Uh, you could PvP or keep doing the current raid content, as you're not just going to be able to go instantly to farm mode on them. A week or two to gear up, then you're going to spend a while trying to get through the current 10 man raid. If that's too easy, do the 25 man. If that's too easy, do the hard mode.

Unless you're literally the top 0.5% of WoW players in the world, you won't be bored very easily.

Xeurb wrote:
SE took the polar opposite end of the spectrum. It might actually take you a year or two to experience all the content that's been added. They designed their content to take so bloody long that almost nobody could complete it (I'm looking at you, relic weapons/absolute virtue), because most sane people would give up.

Yeah, except that you get to a point where your LS is working together so well and runs so much of the server economy that you can pop out relic weapons like candy.

As I was quitting FFXI, we had just gotten my LS leader his relic shield. Completed. He also already had Excalbur. Completed. I'm fairly sure he went on a month or two later to get the SAM katana, and then the bow a few months after that.

That takes time. It's not challenging. Everyone in my LS had done Dynamis a billion times and we could run through it easily with no wipes. We were essentially doing everything we could possibly do, and the only real challenge was out-claiming the botters on Fafhogg and the world dragons. When we got claim, we would burn them down with literally no challenges.

That was in part due to how SE made the game: with no new challenges, everything is routine. With most people having the best gear possible minus relics (I was pretty average for my guild), most stuff is completely trivial. All new content that came out could be breezed through due to our gear.

That's the purpose behind gear progression in WoW. If there are gear checks (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's a boss that's essentially a DPS race—you do enough raid-wide DPS, or the boss enrages and wipes you regardless), then people are forced to gear up to complete the raid instance. It presents a new challenge.

Do you know how many dragon's feet I stood on for however many years I played? A lot. Do you know how routine kiting was? Using 3-4 mechanics to tank and beat bosses is boring as ****.

Try watching boss fights in WoW. They'll blow your mind, if you've only played FFXI.

I'm pretty much done with this thread. Trying to convince FFXI players that the game is terrible because SE ****** it up is like banging my head on a rock to break it in half: it might happen eventually, but my brains would be smeared all over the rock by that point.

By no means am I implying WoW is perfect; I just think that to say that FFXI PvE is in any way shape for form better than WoW is ridiculous, and shows that you've not really played the games objectively.
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#76 Jan 29 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Try watching boss fights in WoW. They'll blow your mind, if you've only played FFXI.


Given that my roomie plays WoW and is an end-gamer in one of the top 100... Yeah, I'll pass. I've watched his boss battles and seen how things are more or less the same or worse. FFXI is my only MMO that I've ever played until I reached end-game. Before that, nothing could keep my attention.

However, this thread is about PvP and balancing of players for said events. I think it should remain a sport-like event. Should it be so scarce? I don't think so... I think there should be official events, practice events that can be setup at any time, tournaments, and various alterations to it that can be applied (like setting handicaps and/or additional fun settings to both sides).
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#77 Jan 29 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Unless you're literally the top 0.5% of WoW players in the world, you won't be bored very easily.


Wrong... i ran with my guild on tortheldrin and even when we were disorganized we were done a raid and full geared in 2-3 weeks @ 3 runs a week. We eventually started getting that time down much more when ulduar came out and were piling through that.

Stop comparing everything to WoW... they are completely different games catering to 2 completely different audiences. WoW has had so much success because they cater to the casual and make the game child friendly(cause let's be honest even a 6 year old could play it until closer to endgame). FFXI on the other hand catered to RP'ers in poor way. We get it, you've made your point, yet you bring it up in every thread "I hate both games but WoW is superior" thats awesome, why not make a different and constructive post. huh?

Edit P.S I like your posts overall, but the whole WoW vs FFXI is getting VERY tiring. It's a dead arguement.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 3:57pm by boriss
#78 Jan 29 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Deila wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Try watching boss fights in WoW. They'll blow your mind, if you've only played FFXI.


Given that my roomie plays WoW and is an end-gamer in one of the top 100... Yeah, I'll pass. I've watched his boss battles and seen how things are more or less the same or worse.

Err... FFXI ways to kill a boss:

1) tank and spank
2) kite
3) multi-tank

Are there any that I'm missing?

WoW doesn't have many bosses that are have the same strategy. I realize that I kinda oversimplified FFXI's boss strategies, but do you need a site like Bosskillers so that people can read up on the strategy?

All I'm pointing out is that people saying that FFXI endgame content is superior to WoW are just flat wrong. I also realize that some FFXI players are willing to learn from what WoW has done as a game, but others are just flat-out refusing to believe that any game but another Final Fantasy could possibly be better than FFXI. It's those that I'm directing my comments at.

boriss wrote:
Quote:
Unless you're literally the top 0.5% of WoW players in the world, you won't be bored very easily.


Wrong... i ran with my guild on tortheldrin and even when we were disorganized we were done a raid and full geared in 2-3 weeks @ 3 runs a week. We eventually started getting that time down much more when ulduar came out and were piling through that.

Did you do hard modes? Cuz if you did, you'd be in that top 0.5%. If you didn't do hard modes, do them and then come back and *****.
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#79 Jan 29 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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Given that my roomie plays WoW and is an end-gamer in one of the top 100... Yeah, I'll pass. I've watched his boss battles and seen how things are more or less the same or worse. FFXI is my only MMO that I've ever played until I reached end-game. Before that, nothing could keep my attention.


right. i dont remember seeing any fights in FF11 that had you take to a series of siege vehicles to take down thousands of troops and a gigantic mechatank at the end. i dont remember you fighting inside the mind of a dragon, racing to dispel the illusion before the dragon drove you all insane and you began murdering your alliance members.

i dont remember a fight where little monsters would literally hop onto you, kicking your ***, and you had to count on your teammates to pick them off of you before you died a horrible death. i dont remember a fight where you had a grand ship-to-ship battle high in the sky between two opposing armies.

FF11 had none of that. it literally was one of three different kinds of fights. which was par for the course at the time. but things have moved beyond that. players seek new challenges, and if a game doesnt deliver, be it pve or pvp, then that game will wither on the vine.

SE knows this. im confident that their pve game will be much improved from what it was, and im confident that their pvp game will likewise receive more attention than it did in 11. it likely wont be on the scale of something like aion or warhammer, or even WoW, but it will be much better done than ballista was. game companies understand that there is a difference between a casual pvper and a hardcore pvper, and they make their games accordingly. WoW wants to appeal to the broadest base possible, so you have a lot of casual and hardcore stuff in it. aion is more of a hardcore game; you dont play it unless you really want pvp and lots of it. FF11 is probably going to be geared more towards the casual, but i wouldnt be surprised if it had some hardcore elements to it.
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#80 Jan 30 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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My opinion on PvP is this: Keep it separate from PvE. If FFXIV would employ the instanced versions of PvP from WoW -ie: gulch, baisen, altrec valley, etc)-, but kept the random PvP out I'd be very happy. Also, making the skills work completely differently on players as they do on monsters is invaluable. That way when you have to adjust an ability for PvP, you don't have to adjust how it works in PvE; This is something that almost always ends up ******** people over.
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#81 Jan 30 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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FF11 had none of that. it literally was one of three different kinds of fights. which was par for the course at the time. but things have moved beyond that. players seek new challenges, and if a game doesnt deliver, be it pve or pvp, then that game will wither on the vine.

SE knows this. im confident that their pve game will be much improved from what it was, and im confident that their pvp game will likewise receive more attention than it did in 11..


I think the only thing SE knows is that there is a niche for players who love abuse. Players who believe that you should have to quest or grind or look for groups for countless hours to make mediocre rewards more meaningful or make it seem like more of an accomplishment. Players who will cling to the hopes that someday, somehow SE will actually make changes to improve the players experience in the game. This wasn't done in the going on 8 years of XI and I really don't see a reason to be optimistic about it happening anytime soon.

I played for a long time and I was almost fooled myself. I bought CoP thinking it would be the greatest thing ever. It almost was. The storyline was great. Cutscenes I can replay in my head still. The characters were great. Not much I didn't like about it except the ending. SE's stab at making a different and challenging encounter failed miserably. 4 years later and still no one has beaten it how it was intended to be defeated. Nevermind that, no one even has a clue how?! As a WoW player I used to be offended when XI players would say I was a casual player. I wanted to be hardcore. I don't think I could stand throwing myself at a wall for 4 years though.




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#82 Jan 31 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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But as for long and drawn-out? Yeah, FFXI is that.

WoW takes less than a week of play time to get to 80.


A slow comfortable *****? Or a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am?

Let me think... ;)

But as an aside, I do agree FFXI took the grind a bit to far. It took me a year to reach cap. I'm hoping FFXIV incorporates the more difficult stuff, but not to the extreme FFXI ever was.
#83 Jan 31 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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akelah wrote:
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But as for long and drawn-out? Yeah, FFXI is that.

WoW takes less than a week of play time to get to 80.


A slow comfortable *****? Or a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am?

Let me think... ;)

You're relating ***, something that's pleasurable, to grinding levels in an MMO (something most people find time-consuming, boring, and painful)?

I'm all for ***, but some things just aren't meant to be compared like that. Smiley: lol
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#84 Jan 31 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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No. I hate when people "gank" in WoW so most of my chars are on PVE realms. The type of PVP you suggest is level capped players farming low-mid level newer people for hours. PvP only works in an arena set up before hand similar to a wow battle ground.
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#85 Jan 31 2010 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks like several votes for either Highly restricted PvP(11style) or No PvP at all.

A couple votes for free PvP.

And at least 1 D-bag troll.

anything new to add here or are we just running in circles now?
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#86 Feb 01 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
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hmmmm
Also, I can make the same list for FFXI:
Wait in town to get an invite.
Find place to level.
Grind the same mob for hours on end, with no surprises other than maybe getting chain 23 instead of chain 22.
Rinse.
Repeat.
Get to level 75.
Change jobs.
Return to top.

at level 20-25 you can do dragon quest ( great pve story )( mission 2-5)
in level 30 you can start do CoP ( great pve with great story )
and same with level 40 50 ..etc

and don't forget about mission 4-5 ( long but fun )

and AF Quest ( not bad story with great armor )

at 60+ you can start zilart ( greta story )

( and don't forget about ToAU and WOTG but I have never play them as low level but you can start them before level 75)

while WoW fan pve only start at level 80( I only start to have fun in WoW at level 80 )


which mean you have alot of thing you need to do while leveling up
( not just leveing up alone )

Err... FFXI ways to kill a boss:

1) tank and spank
2) kite
3) multi-tank

huh?
have you really play ffxi?
why do you think ppl need to now about fight strategy? ( unless the want to wipe )
e.g:
why do you think ppl need rdm/drk? ( no not because it's look cool )
oh and
try to fight AV without any strategy ( hack try to fight him your greatness strategy )
#87 Feb 01 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Greeeed wrote:
while WoW fan pve only start at level 80( I only start to have fun in WoW at level 80 )

huh?
have you really play ffxi?

The first statement is wrong, since you can run instances throughout the leveling process in WoW, and most have a great story behind them, and quests to lead you into them. Like FFXI, you need to consciously choose to do them, which I could see as being a problem for some people that lack the cognitive function to actually do something that requires effort when it's not thrust upon them.

To the second, yes, I have, and likely done more in FFXI than you have. Check my gear here. I've killed all of the world dragons, TP burned Kirin (and was one of the first to do so), done every Dynamis, and my LS acquired four relic weapons as a group for our LS leader in the span of roughly 8 months.

You bring up Dynamis Lord, like he's the prototypical boss; he's one boss that requires a few RDM/DRK because there's no way to beat him otherwise. There are minor alterations to the three styles of tanking that I described, but overall, it holds true. Vrtra: kite. Kirin: tank and spank. I could go on and on.

If you can name 3 bosses in one raid in WoW that are tank and spank, I'll applaud you.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 12:13am by Theophany
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#88 Feb 01 2010 at 3:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Back on the topic of PvP, I really don't want to get "ganked". So PvP should be limited like it was in FFXI. Balance issues aside, I like to see SE focus more on PvP this time around in a secure setting. Give rewards to encourage PvP competitions and have them improve as FFXIV evolves.
#89 Feb 01 2010 at 6:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You're relating ***, something that's pleasurable, to grinding levels in an MMO (something most people find time-consuming, boring, and painful)?

I'm all for ***, but some things just aren't meant to be compared like that.


Believe me, if its painful, its most definately NOT boring! The only point I was trying to make was that I prefer the long grind... teehee!

While others prefer the quickie! Nothing wrong with that either. I did however agree with the points you make. And I bet I can compare that to *** once again! I'm clever that way you see lol!

There is a point where the grind gets tiresome and you just want it to end! So you lay there and count the cracks in the ceiling! xD

Bottom line, FFXIV I hope can find the middle ground because for my MMO of choice, I niether want a boring marathon, nor do I want a sprint to the finish. :)

But getting back on topic!

PvP zones and servers in FFXIV I don't want to see. I'd like to stick to the mini-game side and dueling only. But its not like FFXI never had PvP either, I mean Bastilla is still present and has been for a long time, but no on plays it. You could easilly PvP all day if you like, its just getting the numbers. Either the type of people who play FF aren't fond of the PvP, or they need to do an over-haul of the rewards that it offers...

Edit : Just been browsing the rest of the forum and lookie here!

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1264966649274442817&num=5&page=1

This part!

Quote:
M: The cities were forced into an alliance due to their fear of the enpire, but I get the feeling their old grudges still linger and these bonds aren’t very tight…
T: Right, and I believe that will come up in the “reliving the past” aspect.
M: Oh? How so?
T: Right now, at least on the surface, everyone gets along, but before there was a lot of hatred between the cities. Depending on the time period, a city’s enemies are different. In the present, it’s the beast tribes and the Empire, but in the past, all of the cities were at war with each other. Are you thinking what I’m thinking?
M: Instead of working together to take down a single NPC, maybe we’ll be able to take part in large-scale battles in the past?!
T: Maybe we’ll even see some PVP battles for control over territory!




Edited, Feb 1st 2010 7:54am by akelah

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 8:02am by akelah
#91 Feb 01 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Looks like several votes for either Highly restricted PvP(11style) or No PvP at all.

A couple votes for free PvP.

And at least 1 D-bag troll.

anything new to add here or are we just running in circles now?


Thanks for summing it up Elmyrsun; I definitely did NOT intend for this to become a flame-fest about WoW vs. FFXI. After reading everyone's comments, and while I still personally think that PvP is better with less restrictions, I would welcome a robust "battlefield" style PvP in FFXIV -- perhaps like Conquest, except instead of fighting mobs for control of regions, there is a weekly battle between players from each of the nations. Obviously you could choose whether or not to participate in this.

The bottom line is, in FFXI PvP is really "just for fun" only, and there is no real point or reward for engaging in these battles(again, not having done Ballista yet myself, correct me if I'm wrong). I understand the comment one user made above about FFXI being an MMO where people "work together" instead of "compete against each other" But I just feel like there is a lot of good opportunity lost in the entire MMO concept if there is no purposeful direct competition among players.

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts on this everyone!
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#92 Feb 01 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
You know what WOULD be great though, is something like the DAoC battlefields in an instanced zone.

For those not in the know:

There's a small sized zone with a castle in the middle. The castle must be stormed by a faction, and cleared of NPCs, then it's considered "owned" X faction must defend it now from Y or Z faction.

The castles door can be broken down by a battering ram, and stealth classes can scale the walls, and the inside of the castle can be attacked by catapults. There were battlefields for every 5 intervals of player levels. 20-24, 25-29, etc etc. Man, that brings back memories ^^


However, I would settle for Ballista sans the gear-swap penalties.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 11:25am by Osarion
#93 Feb 01 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really understand why it becomes a flamefest myself. I played both XI and WoW and I feel I can be objective about the comments and comparisons between the two. The fact is that popularity aside I think WoW has a better game for most of the things that players look for in a game. When you fill out the signup for XIV beta and it asks which 3 things you are most looking forward to in XIV think of what you selected. Personally, two out of the three areas are things I think SE needs to work on in their games. There are a few arguements made in these forums about specific differences and I do admit that in a few areas XI beats WoW, but on the whole WoW is blowing XI away.

If XIV is going to be successful then SE needs to realize this and adjust their concepts for what they want this game to become. I don't mean make a copy of WoW, but you have to admit it wouldn't hurt to at least take a look some of the things Blizzard does to maintain such a popular game. Contrary to what most believe endgame in WoW doesn't just stop when you get to 80 in WoW. You don't just ding 80 and stroll into ICC. There is a progression you go through to obtain gear and experience that will make you successful in the higher tier raids. Skill plays a big part in success, but you do need alot of great gear as well.

Some XI players make the arguement that gear carries you through content in WoW, but the fact is that the gear scaling is much more realistic. Your best option for gear is not some neckpiece you got 40 levels ago. This is one of the things that locked SE out of making more interesting and challenging encounters for bosses and something I hope to see changed with XIV.



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#94 Feb 01 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't really understand why it becomes a flamefest myself. I played both XI and WoW and I feel I can be objective about the comments and comparisons between the two. The fact is that popularity aside I think WoW has a better game for most of the things that players look for in a game. When you fill out the signup for XIV beta and it asks which 3 things you are most looking forward to in XIV think of what you selected. Personally, two out of the three areas are things I think SE needs to work on in their games. There are a few arguements made in these forums about specific differences and I do admit that in a few areas XI beats WoW, but on the whole WoW is blowing XI away.

If XIV is going to be successful then SE needs to realize this and adjust their concepts for what they want this game to become. I don't mean make a copy of WoW, but you have to admit it wouldn't hurt to at least take a look some of the things Blizzard does to maintain such a popular game. Contrary to what most believe endgame in WoW doesn't just stop when you get to 80 in WoW. You don't just ding 80 and stroll into ICC. There is a progression you go through to obtain gear and experience that will make you successful in the higher tier raids. Skill plays a big part in success, but you do need alot of great gear as well.

Some XI players make the arguement that gear carries you through content in WoW, but the fact is that the gear scaling is much more realistic. Your best option for gear is not some neckpiece you got 40 levels ago. This is one of the things that locked SE out of making more interesting and challenging encounters for bosses and something I hope to see changed with XIV.

Careful, you're going to start a flame war by presenting an objective opinion. Smiley: grin
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#95 Feb 01 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you can name 3 bosses in one raid in WoW that are tank and spank, I'll applaud you.


Patchwerk: nuff said...

Maexxna(the tiny little minimal damage spideys don't count and the webbed to the wall is really not an enemy. For most people you stand and attack her, purely).

Thaddius: Other then move left and right, tank and spank.

Loatheb : For 95% of the people it was tank and spank only a few people were needed to pop spores and even then it was only every 30 sec.

I could name a few others that require a lot of people to just run around (Sapphiron etc) but i will leave it at that.

That is just Naxx which i have run a lot and i was a pally tank at the time too. I'm sure if someone tried they could do another instance just the same. I don't consider trivial running left or right or being moved across the screen any challange either.


#96 Feb 01 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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boriss wrote:
I don't consider trivial running left or right or being moved across the screen any challange either.


I lol'd. Those fights are so gimmicky.

WoW was at it's best in AQ 20 and AQ 40.
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#97 Feb 01 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
I'll be happy if they just bring a ballista style pvp back as long as it gives a little more than it did in 11 and make it so ppl would wanna do it.


and as for comparing the 2 who cares ppl play what they like , if you don't like it don't play it. I think SE did a decent job on the their first mmorpg that's been still going for idk 6-7 yrs I played wow for only a total of 30 mins and didn't like it prolly cause I played WARHAMMER first so wow didn't appeal to me anyways to each his own
#98Overlord Theophany, Posted: Feb 01 2010 at 9:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Congrats, you named (barely) three; I wouldn't consider Thaddius a tank and spank, nor Sapphiron. Patches is a multi-tank, BTW (Hateful Strike).
#99 Feb 02 2010 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't really understand why it becomes a flamefest myself. I played both XI and WoW and I feel I can be objective about the comments and comparisons between the two. The fact is that popularity aside I think WoW has a better game for most of the things that players look for in a game. When you fill out the signup for XIV beta and it asks which 3 things you are most looking forward to in XIV think of what you selected. Personally, two out of the three areas are things I think SE needs to work on in their games. There are a few arguements made in these forums about specific differences and I do admit that in a few areas XI beats WoW, but on the whole WoW is blowing XI away.

If XIV is going to be successful then SE needs to realize this and adjust their concepts for what they want this game to become. I don't mean make a copy of WoW, but you have to admit it wouldn't hurt to at least take a look some of the things Blizzard does to maintain such a popular game. Contrary to what most believe endgame in WoW doesn't just stop when you get to 80 in WoW. You don't just ding 80 and stroll into ICC. There is a progression you go through to obtain gear and experience that will make you successful in the higher tier raids. Skill plays a big part in success, but you do need alot of great gear as well.

Some XI players make the arguement that gear carries you through content in WoW, but the fact is that the gear scaling is much more realistic. Your best option for gear is not some neckpiece you got 40 levels ago. This is one of the things that locked SE out of making more interesting and challenging encounters for bosses and something I hope to see changed with XIV.





Considering that WoW is a generation or two newer, if it didn't improve the concept in most areas, that would be pretty sad. ;) FFXI still has better style though.
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#100FilthMcNasty, Posted: Feb 02 2010 at 5:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Exactly what do you mean by style? I know, lets ask SE what style is! I'll just hop on the FFXIV official forums and ask Sundi himself :D
#101 Feb 02 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't really see open PVP working in FFXIV. Now I usually don't jump on the "you need an explanation for everything" train but you really do need a plausible reason for people attacking each other. In WoW you have two opposing factions, so it makes sense that they PVP when they meet. Unfortunately, that means you can't adventure with those people either, and I just don't see that in a FF.

I would like to see ballista though. I participated a lot back in the earlier days, where you would rarely see a canceled match at any cap (I liked the 20 and 40 caps the best). Sadly as time went by people lost interest and support dropped. What I would like to see is a return of Ballista in FFXIV, with support and rewards to keep people playing.
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