Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

I remember when a long game was good.Follow

#1 Jan 29 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
**
346 posts
I see some people here talking about how 11 took too long, or how it was a grind.

I remember the grand days of Gaming before MMO's. I'm in my 30's so I lived through the early days, I had my atari 2600, NES, and SNES, all at the age when it was most important for me to have them. I remember when RPG's really took off with FF1 and Dragon Warrior. I remember when you'd go out and buy a game and wonder "How many hours will this game take" and the higher the number the better.

Maybe it's just generational but it boggles my mind when I read people who complain because it's taking too long to play a fun game. Just enjoy the game and stop worrying about how fast it's going, if your having fun then just keep playing until it's no longer fun. If it takes 5 years for it to no longer be fun, then it was a good game.

I hope 14 keeps my interest for half as long as 11 did.

not really a discussion here, just something I wanted to say.
____________________________
Yes,
I am Going to ****.
I'm cool with it.
All my friends will be there.
#2 Jan 29 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
Length of time is not the concern. Content is. FFXI's extended playability was due to timesinks. Waiting on NNs/HNMs to spawn, farming triggers, slaughtering crabs ad infinitum for levels and then going back and slaughtering them again (only slower) for weapon skills, etc. A number of those concerns were addressed to some degree as the game progressed, but the reality remains: it has been demonstrated in other games since FFXI that hours spent doing nothing or doing the exact same thing over and over again makes for a dull game. I'm not talking about grinding in the general sense...I'm talking about 4 hours in a camp fighting the same mobs until you have to log only to come back the next day and do the exact same thing. The scenery and the target mob changes every few levels and maybe you're at a level where you can mix it up and instead of ganking crabs for four hours you can go splatter crawlers instead. In the end, it's a very narrow scope of diversity.

Most people are happy with the idea of an MMO that will keep them entertained for hundreds of hours...they just want it to be a bit more diverse than some first generation MMOs.
#3 Jan 29 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
**
336 posts
I play MMOs because they're long. Otherwise, what's the point of the subscription fee?

My complaint with FFXI is not its length but that you could never get anyone to help you with anything. It took me around a year or so to get people to help me camp/kill a NM (Kreutzet, can't be soloed) and it also took around that amount of time for me to find a group to go through the CoP missions with. I enjoyed all these events when I did them, and they did take a long time, but the trouble of getting help was just agitating.
#4 Jan 29 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
**
923 posts
Well being in your thirties I'm sure you can attest to the fact that life is very different time and responsibility wise. An entire gaming generation has grown up and just can't devote the amount of time it once could, while the newest group seems more intent on having streamlined gaming experiences.

The medium is changing and maturing. I'm hoping for just the right balance of depth and accessibility, these days I have less and less time to actually sit down and play a game so I gladly welcome it.
#5 Jan 29 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
There are plenty of MMOs out there now that allow you to breeze through the game in a month or two. I'm really hoping FFXIV is not so streamlined that you feel like you're on a bullet train to end game, with one path through the content.

Another MMO for example, Champions Online, I reached end game before my free trial was even over. They never got any monthly sub money from me. I wasn't even playing that many hours, and my gaming time is mostly confined to the weekend. I hear WoW is the same way, with the ability to reach level 80 in a month. I refuse to play it, but with all the 'WoW'esque' games coming out these days I don't feel like I need to.

I've been waiting a long time for another game that I can spend five plus years playing. While I'm looking forward to FFXIV, somehow I doubt it's going to be the one. I hope I'm wrong. The trend lately for the genre has been disappointing and I've got a stack of MMO 'coasters' in my closet.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 12:00pm by Calispel
#6 Jan 29 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
431 posts
Quote:
Waiting on NNs/HNMs to spawn, farming triggers, slaughtering crabs ad infinitum for levels and then going back and slaughtering them again (only slower) for weapon skills, etc


And that's the point why I really LOVE FFXI. It's not like WoW's, go in this Instance, kill Boss in 2-5min, get drop and repeat.
You have to "work" for your drops. Spend time with your friends while camping an HNM, learn to work as a team (In WoW you just have to know your Class and what's expected from you in this or that dungeon). Enjoying storys together, stay together until morning arrives to get the last one his level etc. That's thing that no one really cares about in other MMO's!

Quote:
My complaint with FFXI is not its length but that you could never get anyone to help you with anything.


I've never had this problem. May be I was lucky that I got a very good Linkshell early on ;)

Quote:
It took me around a year or so to get people to help me camp/kill a NM (Kreutzet, can't be soloed)


Depending on Job you play it can be soloed ^^
But I can feel your pain here, took me and my best friend 3 month to get him the Kukri but we had a good time there.
____________________________
AlexisLucia wrote:
It's ok, my native language is Typo, so I probably would have understood.

#7 Jan 29 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
Auftragskiller wrote:
Quote:
Waiting on NNs/HNMs to spawn, farming triggers, slaughtering crabs ad infinitum for levels and then going back and slaughtering them again (only slower) for weapon skills, etc


And that's the point why I really LOVE FFXI. It's not like WoW's, go in this Instance, kill Boss in 2-5min, get drop and repeat.
You have to "work" for your drops. Spend time with your friends while camping an HNM, learn to work as a team (In WoW you just have to know your Class and what's expected from you in this or that dungeon). Enjoying storys together, stay together until morning arrives to get the last one his level etc. That's thing that no one really cares about in other MMO's!


Twiddling thumbs for three hours waiting for an NM to spawn is not work. Fighting the same type of mob for hours on end is tedious repetition...if I wanted that, I'd get a part time job on an assembly line. If I stay until morning to get Bob his level, Bob is happy and my boss is not. Nobody cares about twiddling thumbs or grinding the same mobs in the same static camp for hours upon hours as the only real option in other MMOs because it's not fun for most people. I'd rather canvas a zone killing a token sample of everything to be found and gathering their drops for a few hours before moving on to the next zone than stand in the same spot for four hours watching the same monster model dying in front of me every couple of minutes.

SE has had 5 years in development for FFXIV. There's no excuse for them to launch a game that's short on content and if they've been smart, adding new content should be a streamlined process. That means more diversity with less narrow repetition. The overall result is the same either way: a lengthy experience that will keep players happy for a long time. The difference is, one provides quality entertainment and the other provides expensive boredom.
#8 Jan 29 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
531 posts
I like games that are long and I hate when I get games that are over in like a week even with playing maybe 30mins-1hr a day. To me that is too short! That's why I can't wait for FFXIV because MMO's aren't supposed to end and can last as long as you want unless you get bored with them. I wish more companies would make longer games so that they would last longer than a few days.
____________________________






#9 Jan 29 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
431 posts
If you're twiddling thumbs while waiting for an 21-24hr spawn it's ok.
Everyone feels different and that's a good thing!

I had always something to do while camping be it doing housework between the spawn windows, making launch, watching TV, chatting with RL friends etc. This way I could play and get stuff done without taking away from the time with my GF.
____________________________
AlexisLucia wrote:
It's ok, my native language is Typo, so I probably would have understood.

#10 Jan 29 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
209 posts
Quote:
This way I could play and get stuff done without taking away from the time with my GF.


Lotsa people had this problem.

Anyway, I was just thinking about this the other day. I found myself playing Valkyria Chronicles just thinking "Is this game over yet? come onnnnn... How about now?"

Then I remembered playing games like FFX and loving every second and replaying as much as I can to make sure I did EVERYTHING. (The only thing I didn't do was beat Trema.. that *******.) I started thinking, 'what happened? I used to LOVE long rpgs... maybe growing up and having college, work, etc is putting pressure on me and I want to finish games quickly now.'

:(
____________________________
"If it could go wrong, it happened in the Dunes." - Sephrick
#11 Jan 29 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Default
*
73 posts
Quote:
Anyway, I was just thinking about this the other day. I found myself playing Valkyria Chronicles just thinking "Is this game over yet? come onnnnn... How about now?"


Blasphemy my friend. Valkyria Chronicles was an awesome game and I wish it had actually been longer than it was. Sure every battle took an average of like 30~45 minutes to complete unless you really rushed but thats a tactical RPG for you long battles full of tactics. And the story was hellah good too. I was so ****** off when they killed Isara that I swore I would completely annihilate every **** imperial ******* I saw and I did to. The problem with RPGs nowadays is not that they're long its that they've become so dumbed down that the people who used to play RPGs back in the day can rush them and be done in like 20hours, and then the people who are younger who haven't played the old RPGs can rush through in like 24 hours and find that to be a good game when we all know spending 40+ hours on an RPG was and still should be the standard for RPGs XD. CrossEdge is a great example of the old RPG ways being brought into view with a face-lift.

TFG out~
#12 Jan 29 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
******
48,733 posts
I remember the Ataris, and the NESes, and the SNESes and such, and I can't remember ever once thinking "Wow, I'm having so much fun walking in circles (okay, squares, but you get the idea) for hours just so I can buy a new dagger and/or so not get totally slaughtered by the next area's weakest random encounter."

No matter how much I enjoyed those games, you could have easily cut twenty~thirty hours from the game of just walking in **** circles for mediocre reasons.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#13 Jan 29 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
209 posts
Quote:
Blasphemy my friend. Valkyria Chronicles was an awesome game


I COMPLETELY agree that the game rocked, I was justed trying to show that it's really sad that I felt like the game was too short, kind of like a "Wow has it really come to this...? Now I think great RPGs are too short? wtf?"
____________________________
"If it could go wrong, it happened in the Dunes." - Sephrick
#14 Jan 29 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
SPOILERS, people. Christ. ****.

Anyway, I'd rather have a long game, of course. But if you've got a 3 month game minus a bunch of boring repetition, I'd rather it stay a 3 month game, rather than you add enough boring repetition to make it into a 1 year game. If it's a short, but good experience, then cool. I can finish it and move on to another game.

FFXI was so ungratifying for me overall. There were moments, but in the big picture they were completely watered down by all the grinding I did. When I think about all of the new, enriching experiences I could have had instead, I regret throwing more and more time into XI.

And I would DEFINITELY rather leave an MMO feeling like it had "ended" rather than quit because I was bored with it before it did.

Long games are great for single-players. 200 hours is a really long time. MMOs try to go well beyond that. Fact is, you're going to need some really deep core gameplay to keep a game genuinely entertaining for that long (usually these are very competitive or very tactical games that develop higher cognitive skills). FFXI didn't have that for the long haul. For 200 hours, sure, maybe. But ultimately the combat was too shallow. That becomes fine when people are logging on just to relax and zone out, but eventually people are going to seek some kind of stimulation.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Jan 29 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
6 posts
Complaining that FFXI was too much of a grind has NOTHING to do with the "length" of the game.

I too enjoy a long game. I am disappointed when a game does not provide a lengthy and captivating experience. My complaints with FFXI, during the years of addiction, was never with the length of the CONTENT - missions, quests, job quests, etc. all contributed to the depth of the story and made the experience more captivating and enjoyable. It was the monotony of waiting 12+ hour spawns and grinding through level after level on job after job and things of that nature, especially when you were unable to find a party because your job was not the most desired in all of vana'diel, that were a nuisance. I wouldn't want FFXIV to have any less content or "length" to it at all; I'm fully looking forward to a game that will captivate me far longer than any normal console adventure could promise to, I just hope that the experience will be a little more "user friendly" as well. I'm 5 or 6 years older than I was when FFXI first came out and I only have less time and more real world responsibilities to attend to than I did back than. I hope that this offering from SE will make itself a little more accessible for players with real lives.
#16 Jan 29 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Lundqvist wrote:
Complaining that FFXI was too much of a grind has NOTHING to do with the "length" of the game.

So the game isn't exponentially longer because it takes you a ridiculous amount of time to level a job to 75?
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#17 Jan 29 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
431 posts
So a game is bad because the journey is the way?
Because you're not arriving endgame within less then a week?
____________________________
AlexisLucia wrote:
It's ok, my native language is Typo, so I probably would have understood.

#18 Jan 29 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
*
140 posts
Length shouldn't be a proper barometer detailing the greatness of a game. It's something a developer or fanboy could point to in order to bolster their favorite title. At a time where the average gamer is becoming older, having a family, demanding job, etc., it seems that game companies can no longer afford to artificially ratchet up a game's length through the means of incorporating painful grinding.

Of course, you have to have some sort of grind in these types of titles for monetary reasons. But there's no need to make everything like that.

The JRPG in particular, has gotten much scorn & derision as of late due to this very issue, among others. Items such as fetch quests, random battles, cheap bosses, etc., do inflate time spent on such titles with these included by a surprising amount. I myself, would have the time to delve completely into these titles while doing all the sidequests and such...15 years ago. Now that I've gotten older, a more streamlined and less restricted approach to the JRPG (and MMOs also) seems more appealing.

...Hmm. I guess the point is that the older you get, the more important you consider how well your time is spent doing whatever you're doing. If you've got practically nothing to show for it after a certain amount of time passes, then you wonder what the point is in continuing the activity.
#19 Jan 29 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
It took me 3-4 months to get into the game, I played for about a year and a half. Then I took 6 months off and returned for about 8 months. I beat everything, had all the god gear and just didn't feel like levelling another job to 75.

I'm 32 and I was single at the time of FFXI, so I was able to devote a lot of time to the game.

Now I'm married with a 10 month old son. I will have a regular group of real life friends that will level with me from maybe 8-11pm on week nights and maybe a few hours on a Sunday afternoon. I'm not rushing this time. If the game lasts 5 years, who cares if I get to the max level in 8 months or 24 months...

My biggest issue with FFXI was the players. A select few were hardcore and could play their jobs well, we tended to stick together. But then when you got into levelling subs etc. you would always get stuck in a party full of people that just can't play the game worth "crap"

High level linkshells tended to never keep the same name for more than 3-4 months because they were full of guys that thought they were god's gift to FFXI and knew everything about the game.

HNM's became a chore, you had to give people points for attendance and give priority on drops to people who had the most points. If not, people would only show up when an item they wanted was going to be dropped.

Dymanis was the same thing. You were playing most of the time with 30+ people that you wouldn't stop your car to avoid running them over.

Haha I was always very outspoken, I clashed with a lot of people. But when it all came down to it in a battle, they wanted me there. I knew my job and did what was needed to make good exp, or sometimes keeping us alive by sleeping and or toying with a link.

I will play FFXVI, how serious of a player I will be...who knows
____________________________
75 BLM / 42 WHM / 37 RDM / 37 SMN / 37BRD / 37 THF / 37 WAR / 37 MNK/ 100 +3 Cooking
Alexander - Retired shortly after ToA came out
#20 Jan 29 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Auftragskiller wrote:
So a game is bad because the journey is the way?
Because you're not arriving endgame within less then a week?

For most people the fun part of the game is actually playing the game, not grinding out quests and mobs for hours on end.

You're not going to have crazy mechanics in leveling; you get to those when you play endgame.

So yes, FFXI is a bad game. It was terrible, actually. I loved the crafting, jobs, etc, but the endgame was so completely God-awful that I couldn't believe that I had stuck with it for so long after playing endgame in WoW.

I sincerely hope that SE has learned from Blizzard.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#21 Jan 29 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
*
192 posts
Elmyrsun wrote:
I remember the grand days of Gaming before MMO's. I'm in my 30's so I lived through the early days...


Like someone else said, if you're 30 you would usually be part of a demographic that very much appreciates a concise gaming experience. Most gamers who grew up during these eras now have full time jobs and relationships, let alone families, and can't dump 5 hours into a game a day without massive rescheduling. Game journalists in their mid-twenties and thirties write about these kinds of experiences all the time.

Conversely, I might be "with you" in that I hope they don't make FFXIV "short". One of the large aspects of FFXI's personality that appealed to the people who really loved it was how the journey was the important part, the enjoyable slice, and not the destination.

Unfortunately this journey was something only people who were already inclined a certain way really found them deriving joy from. And while it's true that there are always going to be people who aren't into that sort of thing, I think there's a lot Square could have done (and hopefully will do) to help show off the fun of the 'journey' more.

In FFXI they basically set up a nice world and a level journey and said "Enjoy!" Some players enjoyed the sights and sounds because they were looking for them. Some weren't and didn't get much out of the game. They don't have to make XIV "quick" to keep these people entertained; they just need to learn how to say, "Stop and smell the flowers, goddamnit," and actually make the journey varied and interesting enough to keep a variety of people engaged. Not just people who don't mind sitting on their thumbs levelling and LFG.

Auftragskiller wrote:
You have to "work" for your drops. Spend time with your friends while camping an HNM, learn to work as a team (In WoW you just have to know your Class and what's expected from you in this or that dungeon). Enjoying storys together, stay together until morning arrives to get the last one his level etc. That's thing that no one really cares about in other MMO's!


Provided you find good friends. Who also have the time to spend to camp an HNM. And who'll be on long enough for you to learn to play together well, and who are this fun to hang out with for hours on end.

Really, if this the "best" part of FFXI, then we're talking about a small percentage of players that will ever be lucky enough to enjoy these things.

Square isn't making the community, they're making the game. And while they can do some things to encourage different types of community, they simply can't build a game around hoping every player gets lucky enough to find all these things. There should be team activities and a focus on community, sure, but the fact that this is where you're putting the focus throws into light how many people won't even get to enjoy a game like this.

And I don't think XI's community was that great at all, honestly. In all the time I spent in the game, I never found anyone who was really fun to hang out with, who made playing the game worth it for me. I don't think FFXIV should be so short that I never even bother hanging out with other players, and I don't think it should let me do everything in the game alone. I just want it to have enough to do so I can at least stay interested in playing until those people do come along.
____________________________
The Other Castle
#22 Jan 29 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
24 posts
I'm not quite as old as the OP (27) but I agree 100% with everything he said, which is why if I could go back in time and do my mmo'ing over again, I would've stayed in Vana'diel and not played that instant gratification piece of crap that is WoW. Oh, and WoW's endgame has nothing on XI's. Much more sense of accomplishment = better gaming experience for us older (current gen gaming wise) folk. WoW simply doesn't offer that, at least not now, not since pre BC when sh*t actually was fun like AQ40 and old naxx.

Edited, Jan 29th 2010 8:04pm by Raruwaru
____________________________
my townz
your townz
they don't wanna be with us?
#23 Jan 29 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
656 posts
real life does interfere with MMORPGs, i remembered back in the day I skipped my sunday soccer practices just to attend our LS's weekly Kirin fight

back on topic, I believe FFXI was great that they keep us busy other than just grinding, and with good reasons.
the low level passes fast, but they when you get to 18, you get your subjob, 20 for your chocobo and then work on your airship passes to the 3 nations and kazham, then your RSEs, genkeis every 5 levels and AFs
true, most of the quests are actually grinding more mobs, but i remember each time i "ding" i accomplished something.

MMORPGs were supposed to be long and keep updating is content to keep ppl's interested and of course community based (at least in my opinion).
if you whine about a game being too long and not fun for you, go play some sports game or first person shooting game, MMORPG is different
____________________________
モスタル


#24 Jan 29 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
**
736 posts
Quote:
For most people the fun part of the game is actually playing the game, not grinding out quests and mobs for hours on end.
You're not going to have crazy mechanics in leveling; you get to those when you play endgame.


Sometimes someone will say something that makes me feel like such a minority.
It's plain to see what you were going for here, how this arguement makes a case for valuing the destination over the journey. But all I really see is a perfectly valid reason to incorporate all those design decisions that make endgame so enjoyable and sprinkle them liberally throughout the game.

Is there any reason our gorgeous vistas need to be crammed into one tiny little spot? Is there really a level requirement on enjoying a well crafted story? Should we leaning so far away from the impact of player input on the outcome of a fight that you need a specific piece of gear before your considered comfortable in your own skin?

Companies don't need to rely on grind for the sake of keeping production costs low anymore. But instead of looking at why character progression is such a slog and fixing it; We either lump grind in with taxes as an 'unpleasant reality of life', or forgo the process completely? Why do we feel like we have to choose between playing the game, and actually enjoying it?

How did this all get so turned around?


Edited, Jan 29th 2010 9:10pm by Zemzelette
#25 Jan 29 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
8,779 posts
Quote:
Most people are happy with the idea of an MMO that will keep them entertained for hundreds of hours...they just want it to be a bit more diverse than some first generation MMOs.


seconded.

Quote:
And that's the point why I really LOVE FFXI. It's not like WoW's, go in this Instance, kill Boss in 2-5min, get drop and repeat.
You have to "work" for your drops. Spend time with your friends while camping an HNM, learn to work as a team (In WoW you just have to know your Class and what's expected from you in this or that dungeon). Enjoying storys together, stay together until morning arrives to get the last one his level etc. That's thing that no one really cares about in other MMO's!


i dont know if youre a troll or just stupid. maybe a stupid troll.

Quote:
No matter how much I enjoyed those games, you could have easily cut twenty~thirty hours from the game of just walking in **** circles for mediocre reasons.


i think there still exists this group of people who make a direct correlation between time spent playing a game and "fun" had in said game. you dont need to spend a lot of time to have fun in a game, or at least you shouldnt need too. however, should the option arise that you want to spend a lot of time in said game, then yes, fun should be there for you. but how much time you spend should be completely unrelated to how much fun you have; whether youre on for fifteen minutes or eight hours you should be having a blast. it shouldnt be a requirement that you spend a great deal of time before you can have "fun".

and for me, that was the biggest issue with 11. you spent all this time leveling up and getting new gear before you could do the story. you spent maybe 80% or your time preparing to play the other 20% of the game, which to me, was the storyline of it. i can kill monsters in any **** game out there, but FF has always drawn me because of the story. so when i discovered that i had to spend 4/5 of my time getting ready to experience the story, i got the F out.
____________________________
Quote:
The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#26Berezo, Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 8:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Overlord wrote:
#27 Jan 30 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
In FFXI they basically set up a nice world and a level journey and said "Enjoy!" Some players enjoyed the sights and sounds because they were looking for them. Some weren't and didn't get much out of the game. They don't have to make XIV "quick" to keep these people entertained; they just need to learn how to say, "Stop and smell the flowers, goddamnit," and actually make the journey varied and interesting enough to keep a variety of people engaged. Not just people who don't mind sitting on their thumbs levelling and LFG.


The journey wasn't much to enjoy. You spent so much time in the same spot of the same zone fighting the same mobs. And the gameplay was very repetitive, which is the part you're supposed to be enjoying.

One of the big problems with FFXI was that they made the game far too long across contexts. Even your average hardcore player has to choose between goals like leveling all the jobs or optimally gearing and meriting a single job-- they'll probably get bored with the game before coming close to completing one of these.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Jan 30 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Lundqvist wrote:
Complaining that FFXI was too much of a grind has NOTHING to do with the "length" of the game.

So the game isn't exponentially longer because it takes you a ridiculous amount of time to level a job to 75?


Not exponentially, no. Do you know why it took so long for me reach 75 on my first job? Because I stopped at multiple level junctions to have fun camping NMs (Seriously, I had fun doing this lol). To do quests for fame, the meh rewards, and the surprisingly decent story telling. To do missions for the gil, the bonuses(airships, sky, etc), and the amazing story lines. To chat with people. To help some random nubs get their G1 items. To help that alliance kill the G2 mobs. To go exploring the zones with my friend or cousin. To level up some of my crafts. To spend some time fishing. etc.

Getting to 75 may have taken me a long time, but reducing the exp required to reach 75 in half would have only cut down the time to 75% at best.

Edited, Jan 30th 2010 2:43am by Deadgye
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#29 Jan 30 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
12,622 posts
You can kill bats and sheep for hours on end or explore new areas in a bigger world. Both are time-sinks.

Content is king.
____________________________
Blah
#30 Jan 30 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
Kachi wrote:
The journey wasn't much to enjoy. You spent so much time in the same spot of the same zone fighting the same mobs. And the gameplay was very repetitive, which is the part you're supposed to be enjoying.


I thought it was well enough up to a point; the game had a great soundtrack where it had music, the environments were visually pleasing, I liked the writing. Then the quests started running out and I was more and more getting forced into doing LFG crap in an area I didn't even care for. It was essentially stand around looking for a party or bust.

Not that the gameplay was the best, (Not going there,) but I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the part that you should be enjoying. The idea seems a bit presumptuous. People who care more about exploring or watching their character grow (or well written quests and interesting stories, or the social aspect of it all) will gladly put up with some mediocre gameplay to get to the content they enjoy. Not that Square shouldn't put their best foot forward, of course.

Like's being said, content seems to be the issue here, not length. I don't want the game to be short, I want the journey to be the focus by putting in more content. Square could probably also do a better job of underlining the existing content.

Would love to see rewards for "enjoying the journey", maybe exploration bonuses, mechanics to encourage players to engage in activities that increase immersion towards this end, like actually sitting at campfires. As well as quests and general content better spaced out so I don't get to X level and then only have LFG-style levelling ahead of me for the next 16 hours.

Edited, Jan 30th 2010 10:36am by PrinnyFlute
____________________________
The Other Castle
#31 Jan 30 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
I hate the whole "I have a job now, so I want an easy game. **** everyone else." mentality. Maybe you should just stick to games that are made to be played a few minutes at a time or just play any number of MMOs that are already great for people that don't have a lot of time (i.e. WoW, that is why it's so popular).
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#32 Jan 30 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
431 posts
Quote:
i dont know if youre a troll or just stupid. maybe a stupid troll.


Calling someone troll or stupid because he is enjoying other things than you?
Wow... That's a strong point... Grow up!

I still play both games from time to time and I know what I enjoy.
WOW is cool after a content patch and for like 1-3 month till I got the actual T-Set (got to 9 actually because I don't have time to play anything right now) and then I quit waiting for the next Patch. It's nothing special to have the normal T-Sets (not speaking of Hardmode Sets).

FFXI is a completly other kind of MMO. Sure sometimes the time sink involved is too extrem I don't deny that but when I get equip there I feel like I've earned it. You don't get 10-20 pieces in 1 Raid or 3-4 pieces a Boss. And it's a completly different community in FFXI way more relaxed than WOW. It's more friendly and all. Well may be it's because the german WOW Community is the worst crap out there but w/e...
____________________________
AlexisLucia wrote:
It's ok, my native language is Typo, so I probably would have understood.

#33 Jan 30 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
TheShadowWalker wrote:
I hate the whole "I have a job now, so I want an easy game. @#%^ everyone else." mentality. Maybe you should just stick to games that are made to be played a few minutes at a time or just play any number of MMOs that are already great for people that don't have a lot of time (i.e. WoW, that is why it's so popular).


And you're not saying that people who are lucky enough to have an assload of free time every day are the only ones who should be able to play FFXIV, an MMORPG in an RPG franchise that attracts people from all age groups and walks of life? Basically, "I want a game that I have to drop five hours in a day, @#%^ everyone else."

Who's saying "***** everyone else" anyway? People who want the game to be shorter? Or anyone who wants it to be flexible in any way? If I say I don't want to have to LFG for a few hours or devote five hours a day to the game does that mean I'm saying "***** everyone else"?

Also, no one said "Easy". Some people said "Shorter", but if you think you're a better gamer for sticking with a game for 200 hours instead of 100 you've got another thing coming. Sounds like it's probably more "othering" in terms of dividing people into stupid *** "HardcoreUs VS CasualThem" labels to me.
____________________________
The Other Castle
#34 Jan 30 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Berezo wrote:
WoW was an easy-mode MMO for whiners like you, and thats why i left wow because all they do is keep watering it down. Get good son.

Please look at the gear I acquired in FFXI before calling me a whiner, or telling me to "get good". My gear was better than yours, gimpy.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#35 Jan 30 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
899 posts
Longer games work best for me, as long as its enjoyable then length is no issue. a shorter game on the other hand make me consider borrowing games rather then buying , Borderlands/UC2 both were awesome games but both way too short and now collecting dust on my table.

If FFXIV is a long game I'm sure (like FFXI) it will have many short term goals , being it pure lvling , questing , crafting or plane simple exploration, I hardly felt that I dont have anything to do.

No one will kill you if you didn't finish up the game fast , just take your time and as long as you felt that you achieved something every once in a while then who cares?
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#36 Jan 30 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
129 posts
I loved playing an old school RPG, realizing I just dumped 60 hours into it, and thought to myself, "This was worth it."

SE can make FFXIV take me 6 years to complete if they want, provided I feel like I'm actually doing something worth while. Picking an obscure corner of a zone to pull that stupid blue crab for 3 hours at a time, before being forced to find an even higher level blue crab in another zone, is not worth it.

I shouldn't be forced to wait out and grind 10-15 levels between my Sandy missions. There just needs to be more content during the leveling process.
#37 Jan 30 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I don't think anyone really doubts that FFXIV will in general be a longer game than games like WOW. However, as a hardcore player, I would rather my goals be more attainable-- not feeling like I have to choose between meeting my in-game goals and living my life. The fact is, I couldn't keep up with the only two real goals I had entering in the game: See all of the story, and optimize my SAM. I mean, not even close. And I didn't even quit because I couldn't achieve those goals-- it's just that I was incredibly bored with the game well before I neared those goals. I was plenty willing to devote the time... to another game.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Jan 31 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
295 posts
I don't mind the grind if it has a reward.

I love the story, and I want to get to the next part of the story. For that, if I have to grind for a half hour to catch up on the levels I didn't get while speeding through a previous area (happened alot in ffx) I could.

My problem comes from games that want you to grind for hours on end for the pure sake of being a higher level so you can grind some more.

The only thing that makes a grind worth while is a story to follow it.

imo...
then again, I'm the type of person that would read a book I like in one sitting and neglect all else cause I get into the story. but I'm just that type of person.
#39 Jan 31 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
*
135 posts
I know exactly what the OP is talking about. It's the exact reason why most of the newer games I buy are small name JRPGs that try to adhere to the standards set back in SNES and early PSX RPGs.

When I buy a game, I want to make sure I'm at least going to get 30+ hours out of the $50-60 I just sank into the game.

When I first read that Halo 3:ODST was only 4 hours long in the offline campaign, I did a double take. Are today's younger gamers really so lacking in patience that they applaud a game for getting you to the end in one day? Yes I understand that there are online multiplayer matches, but that isn't real content and no sane person should be willing to play the exact same maps over and over 15 minutes at a time.

What has gaming come to?
____________________________
Ronixis - Bahamut
99DNC 99NIN 99PUP 99BST 97SCH 95SAM
#40 Feb 03 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Auftragskiller wrote:

If you're twiddling thumbs while waiting for an 21-24hr spawn it's ok.
Everyone feels different and that's a good thing!

I had always something to do while camping be it doing housework between the spawn windows, making launch, watching TV, chatting with RL friends etc. This way I could play and get stuff done without taking away from the time with my GF.
------------------


Well, the point that he was trying to make is that going and doing chores for 10 hours while you wait for a monster to pop isn't "playing the game"..... It's going and doing chores for 10 hours while the game just sits there waiting for something to happen. Many of us would rather be, I don't know, playing the game.

It's far more fun to log into a game and actually perform tasks (such as questing or dungeon diving) that help you improve your character than it is to let your character stand there with thumb up *** while you go and wash the windows for two hours waiting for something to happen.
#41 Feb 03 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
**
659 posts
Jubs wrote:
I loved playing an old school RPG, realizing I just dumped 60 hours into it, and thought to myself, "This was worth it."

SE can make FFXIV take me 6 years to complete if they want, provided I feel like I'm actually doing something worth while. Picking an obscure corner of a zone to pull that stupid blue crab for 3 hours at a time, before being forced to find an even higher level blue crab in another zone, is not worth it.

I shouldn't be forced to wait out and grind 10-15 levels between my Sandy missions. There just needs to be more content during the leveling process.


Quoted for freaking TRUTH. I hated that each mission had such a large gap in between each one. Made the story seem very disjointed.
____________________________
Aggieland -> "From the outside looking in, you can't understand it. From the inside out, you can't explain it."

Final Fantasy XIV: Neithan Turambar, Cactuar Server
Guild Wars 2: Level 80 Guardian Neithan Turambar Jade Quarry Server
WoW: Lvl 85 Shaman Friewyn Black Dragonflight Server (retired)
FFXI: Lvl 75 Dark Knight Neithan (retired many years ago)
LotRO: Lvl 30 Maethros (retired)
#42 Feb 03 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
602 posts

I still have a pristine version of Xenogears for regular Playstation, as well as Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9, Tactics. I play them occasionally. I wish all games were as long as Xenogears and the plot line was just as ****** up. It's the RPG that every game developer should play and strive to make to some degree. Lot of RPGs average at 40 hours game play to beat and to me that's normal. Last Remnant took a little while to beat, as did Infinite Undiscovery and the new Star Ocean game that came out. Had to buy a 360 to buy the 360 SE RPGs but sold it back for no loss lol >.< Gotta love Wal-mart and their return policies. But anyways. If you have not played Xenogears, you have not ever played a real RPG. Oh, considering the system of Tactics that game can easily hit 100 hours game play just like 7 for doing the max materia route.

I think FF12 was quite long no? I don't remember. I hope 13 isn't like only a 20 hour game play game like most games are turning out to be. 60.00 for a game that only gives 20 hours game play fails pretty hardcore.
#43 Feb 03 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
531 posts
Quote:
I hope 13 isn't like only a 20 hour game play game like most games are turning out to be. 60.00 for a game that only gives 20 hours game play fails pretty hardcore.


Same here I hope it lasts pretty long.
____________________________






#44 Feb 03 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
I wish all games were as long as Xenogears and the plot line was just as @#%^ed up. It's the RPG that every game developer should play and strive to make to some degree.


While I agree that Xenogears was a great game, the ending was rushed in development, and there were actually parts left out of the final product. Also, if you weren't aware, the Xenosaga series is a spiritual successor to Xenogears (though there aren't too many similarities).

As for FF12, the story portion was very short and character development was extremely weak. It barely resembled a FF game.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Feb 03 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Default
*
108 posts
FFXI is special to me its a league apart from other mmo's imo and it has many flaws to it and some have been fixed, some have not. playability socializing accessibility diversity and customization all have a part in a new game in waht game do they not. but hitting the nail on the head is capturing the imagination of its fanbase and that is something not easily assimilated. Some gaems just grab and consume you. ffxi will always be mroe than a game to me its a connection therefore hard to replace. This is my opinon of course plenty ppl discarded ffxi promtly when they got tired of it and thats fine too.
All i know is I can throw in the ffxi soundtrack 20 yrs from now and smile.
I was one of those who thought WoW was the next best thing since zelda or SF but it turned out to be very bland to me, in catering to a larger audience it lacks flavor at least to me anyway. Sure theres things wrong with every game we play, we will always critique a game, and its impossible to make everyone happy but i hope they will live up to the fact that they are targeting ffxi current and former players, that can be the deciding factor for many to either play it for a very long time or it could backfire and be disastrous.
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#46 Feb 03 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
18 posts
The first thing I thought when I read this is that the OP must have never played FFXI. Apparently that's not the case but that's what I thought. "How many hours will this game take"? This question doesn't apply to MMOs. Every single hour you play until you quit is how many hours the game will take. Now if we're talking about how long will certain activities take... I certainly don't agree that the longer the better. This is an MMORPG not an RPG.

The issue with FFXI isn't that it takes too long (whatever that means in regards to a MMO), the issue is that it takes too long to get things going. Getting a party started? It might take you an hour before you find all the members you need and get to camp. Wanting to do a mission? It could literally take you all day to find people that need the mission or kind hearted souls that just want to help. Want to camp some HNMs? Get ready to potentially stand around for hours waiting for the monster to pop.

I played FFXI and I loved FFXI. All the waiting and suffering just made any accomplishment all that much sweeter, but if I could avoid looking for a party for an hour or two and just go straight to partying, I would. I think it must be a generational gap because as a youngster (23 year old) all I can think about while I was reading this post is that the OP just doesn't get it. It's like you have an issue with us wanting FFXIV to learn from FFXI mistakes and be a better game for it.
#47 Feb 03 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
*
108 posts
Quote:
I played FFXI and I loved FFXI. All the waiting and suffering just made any accomplishment all that much sweeter, but if I could avoid looking for a party for an hour or two and just go straight to partying, I would. I think it must be a generational gap because as a youngster (23 year old) all I can think about while I was reading this post is that the OP just doesn't get it. It's like you have an issue with us wanting FFXIV to learn from FFXI mistakes and be a better game for it.


</clap>

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 8:44pm by goblinpimp
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#48 Feb 03 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,457 posts
Quote:

Twiddling thumbs for three hours waiting for an NM to spawn is not work. Fighting the same type of mob for hours on end is tedious repetition...if I wanted that, I'd get a part time job on an assembly line. If I stay until morning to get Bob his level, Bob is happy and my boss is not. Nobody cares about twiddling thumbs or grinding the same mobs in the same static camp for hours upon hours as the only real option in other MMOs because it's not fun for most people. I'd rather canvas a zone killing a token sample of everything to be found and gathering their drops for a few hours before moving on to the next zone than stand in the same spot for four hours watching the same monster model dying in front of me every couple of minutes.

SE has had 5 years in development for FFXIV. There's no excuse for them to launch a game that's short on content and if they've been smart, adding new content should be a streamlined process. That means more diversity with less narrow repetition. The overall result is the same either way: a lengthy experience that will keep players happy for a long time. The difference is, one provides quality entertainment and the other provides expensive boredom.
---------------------------


That was so utterly perfect. Thank you.

Other MMO's have proven that even if it doesn't take forever to level up and obtain good gear, people will still play for years.. and years..
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#49 Feb 03 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,457 posts
Quote:
I hope 13 isn't like only a 20 hour game play game like most games are turning out to be. 60.00 for a game that only gives 20 hours game play fails pretty hardcore.


You could beat most of the older FF's in 20 hours too.. they weren't like hard or anything. I mean you could go around collecting cards, or leveling to 99, or all that stuff but to just go through the story and win wasn't some 50 hour process..
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#50 Feb 04 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
**
879 posts
Lundqvist wrote:
My complaints with FFXI, during the years of addiction, was never with the length of the CONTENT"

"It was the monotony of waiting 12+ hour spawns and grinding through level after level on job after job and things of that nature, especially when you were unable to find a party because your job was not the most desired in all of vana'diel, that were a nuisance."


So true...

Content rocked, but what ultimately drove me away from FFXI is the wait time.

IE: Time spent doing nothing because you were waiting for something.
____________________________
Khory

TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
#51 Feb 04 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
*
108 posts
Quote:
So the game isn't exponentially longer because it takes you a ridiculous amount of time to level a job to 75?


This has changed btw.

True FFXI has many time sinks. some addressed and some not.
FFXI was directed to the hardcore player who would find such things as low drop rates and an alliance for whm hauby or Ohat run pre-nerf, a challenge exciting
and time consuming but in an enjoyable way.
WoW aimed for a different audience. FFXI has a learning curve from ****. (had, really)
If you didnt catch on and make a living you got bored quit complained and moved on to a lesser mmo and flamed ffxi then on.
we know the deal we have heard the crys and seen the tears.
what some might describe FFXI to be "too long" is what many FFXI players are proud of.
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)