Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

I remember when a long game was good.Follow

#52 Feb 07 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
goblinpimp wrote:
True FFXI has many time sinks. some addressed and some not.
FFXI was directed to the hardcore player who would find such things as low drop rates and an alliance for whm hauby or Ohat run pre-nerf, a challenge exciting
and time consuming but in an enjoyable way.
WoW aimed for a different audience. FFXI has a learning curve from ****. (had, really)
If you didnt catch on and make a living you got bored quit complained and moved on to a lesser mmo and flamed ffxi then on.
we know the deal we have heard the crys and seen the tears.
what some might describe FFXI to be "too long" is what many FFXI players are proud of.


Agreed.

I think that no matter what, every individual game has a target audience, and although a MMORPG, FFXIV is no different. Just because two games are of the same nature (such as MMO's) doesn't mean that they all target the exact same audiences. Even with first-person shooters, not every first-person shooter targets the exact same audience. Comparing FF to WoW isn't really accomplishing anything because SE isn't trying to make the same game Blizzard made. They aren't even trying to make the exact same game they achieved with FFXI. I honestly cannot say exactly who is being targeted with FFXIV, the hardcore gamers or the casual players, but I'm sure that anyone who is a fan of the content of Final Fantasy will find their niche whether they play all day every day for the next 5 years or play for a few months, take a break, and play for another few months. I think it goes without saying that FFXIV is not being made with everyone's preferences in mind and if you don't like the way SE does things with this game, there are plenty of other MMO's to choose from.
#53 Feb 07 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
17 posts
replay value should come from stuff that varies (like nyzul and einherjar being kinda random) rather than same mob a billion times, from a horrible drop rate
#54 Feb 08 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:

...
I think it goes without saying that FFXIV is not being made with everyone's preferences in mind and if you don't like the way SE does things with this game, there are plenty of other MMO's to choose from.


My issue is that, while there are a lot of other MMO's to choose from, they all play basically the same. I don't like the modern streamlined MMO design that seems to be the cookie cutter of game development these days. I'll be disappointed if I load up FFXIV and it feels like every other modern MMO out there, because there's nothing else worthwhile left to go to. Fast leveling and a linear gameplay progression from one quest hub to the next will have the average MMO veteran (who still has time to play MMOs - at least 10-20 hrs/wk) finished with the game in a month or two. A game that values instant gratification over lasting appeal. I really don't want to see another one of these.

I've been playing MMO's for twelve years now and I miss the originals. I kind of feel like FFXIV might be my last hope for the genre.
#55 Feb 08 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
728 posts
People are too gogo gotta have it now, because most of them never touched an mmo till WoW. So of course they got the short version and figure that's how it should all be. I think mmo games should remain a time sink, they were designed that way and fill that niche in gaming. Play the consoles for 20-30 min gaming sessions and the PC for several hour. Some of us, like me a house wife have all the time in the world and games like FFXI are a nice way to spend time.
____________________________
Fresh start on Alex :D. Hope I can dodge other crazy people this time. Of course being a bit odd myself I tend to attract them.
#56 Feb 08 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
Calispel wrote:
My issue is that, while there are a lot of other MMO's to choose from, they all play basically the same. I don't like the modern streamlined MMO design that seems to be the cookie cutter of game development these days. I'll be disappointed if I load up FFXIV and it feels like every other modern MMO out there, because there's nothing else worthwhile left to go to. Fast leveling and a linear gameplay progression from one quest hub to the next will have the average MMO veteran (who still has time to play MMOs - at least 10-20 hrs/wk) finished with the game in a month or two. A game that values instant gratification over lasting appeal. I really don't want to see another one of these.

I've been playing MMO's for twelve years now and I miss the originals. I kind of feel like FFXIV might be my last hope for the genre.


This was actually the exact problem I was addressing in my argument. I am trying to say that SE should not have to adapt FFXIV to play like any other MMO in order to attract players. I'm not sure if you purposefully meant to take my quote out of context or if I am just misreading your response to my argument, so I apologize ahead of time if I am. I am arguing against making FFXIV just like WoW, AoC, EQ, and what have you because if people want to play a game like those, they can because they already exist. I don't think that every MMO out there is exactly the same and "cookie" cutter, nor do I think FFXIV will end up being like that if SE sticks to their guns, but I definitely see what you are saying with the whole not finding your niche yet. I have only been playing MMO's for going on six years so you have me beat there but FFXI was far from an instantly-gratifying linear gameplay, in my opinion and I like to expect at least as much as that from FFXIV. :)
#57 Feb 08 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
Calispel wrote:
My issue is that, while there are a lot of other MMO's to choose from, they all play basically the same. I don't like the modern streamlined MMO design that seems to be the cookie cutter of game development these days. I'll be disappointed if I load up FFXIV and it feels like every other modern MMO out there, because there's nothing else worthwhile left to go to. Fast leveling and a linear gameplay progression from one quest hub to the next will have the average MMO veteran (who still has time to play MMOs - at least 10-20 hrs/wk) finished with the game in a month or two. A game that values instant gratification over lasting appeal. I really don't want to see another one of these.

I've been playing MMO's for twelve years now and I miss the originals. I kind of feel like FFXIV might be my last hope for the genre.


This was actually the exact problem I was addressing in my argument. I am trying to say that SE should not have to adapt FFXIV to play like any other MMO in order to attract players. I'm not sure if you purposefully meant to take my quote out of context or if I am just misreading your response to my argument, so I apologize ahead of time if I am. I am arguing against making FFXIV just like WoW, AoC, EQ, and what have you because if people want to play a game like those, they can because they already exist. I don't think that every MMO out there is exactly the same and "cookie" cutter, nor do I think FFXIV will end up being like that if SE sticks to their guns, but I definitely see what you are saying with the whole not finding your niche yet. I have only been playing MMO's for going on six years so you have me beat there but FFXI was far from an instantly-gratifying linear gameplay, in my opinion and I like to expect at least as much as that from FFXIV. :)


I agree completely, sorry! I think I've heard the "if you don't like it, play something else' line so many times over the past few years that I unintentionally took your statement out of context. There is nothing very original out there at the moment. Too many games lately seemed to have sacrificed originality in the face of WoW's overwhelming financial success. I've tried plenty but they rarely last for more than few months and they always feel the same. I'm hoping SE goes against the trend here and gives us something different.
#58 Feb 08 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
Calispel wrote:
I agree completely, sorry! I think I've heard the "if you don't like it, play something else' line so many times over the past few years that I unintentionally took your statement out of context. There is nothing very original out there at the moment. Too many games lately seemed to have sacrificed originality in the face of WoW's overwhelming financial success. I've tried plenty but they rarely last for more than few months and they always feel the same. I'm hoping SE goes against the trend here and gives us something different.


No worries ^^ I know as of right now my English is terrible because I'm forced to speak and write in Spanish 24/7 while I'm studying abroad and this is a filler to keep my sanity. I'm in a very different time zone than my friends and phone calls are expensive. >.>

I agree with this point. I want to obliterate WoW only because it is so unbelievably mainstream it is affecting the content of other games where it shouldn't. Because it is so difficult to play more than one MMO, companies feel compelled to compete with Blizzard who have completely sold out and do whatever people want to keep them happy. They don't even release more content to add the the grandeur of the game but rather to keep people occupied so they will keep buying subs. That was the thing I really liked about FFXI: Even though it was an MMO, I loved the quests and missions because it had a great storyline and the stories only kept getting better with each new expansion. My favorite was Wings of the Goddess. Going back to the times of the crystal war and experiencing the zones in a completely different way was fascinating and innovative for me. The last expansions may not have lived up to the hype, but I'll let SE have that one and call it their "experiment."

The only worry I really have for FFXIV is that it will sell out as well since WoW seems to keep amassing hordes of players who sacrifice the quality of a game just for a chance to be good at something. To be honest, I have only played WoW once in my life, and I was with one of my friends at college who had to run to class. He told me his Guild was doing a raid and he needed me to fill in for him. Having no knowledge whatsoever of the game, I was able to actually perform quite well on his character. That is just sad, to me. I think if I handed someone my 75 white mage during an HNM fight on FFXI who had never played it before, they would literally **** their pants.
#59 Feb 09 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
I think if I handed someone my 75 white mage during an HNM fight on FFXI who had never played it before, they would literally sh*t their pants.


Oh please.

Seriously, STOP trying to act as if jobs in FFXI are in any way more complex than Aion, Age of Conan, LotRO, or even WoW. They aren't, and trying to delude yourselves into thinking they are are sad. You know why you did well in WoW when you had to sit? Because the UI was a **** of a lot more user friendly than FFXI's. Text menus are archaic. They're pointless, show lack of imagination, and a serious dose of laziness in the design department and ultimately feel like you're playing Dragon Quest I online with FF references. White Mage is no more difficult to grasp than Priest from WoW. Both heal, both have a HoT, and both have dispel options. The only difference is, one is displayed as to be immediately evident to the player how to place the ability somewhere where it is easily accessible. FFXI doesn't.

Hate WoW all you want. Curse it, call it stupid, but the fact of the matter is it continues to do well. "Popular != good!" You know, that would work if we're talking about fast food (which is convenient in a rushed world) versus gaming (where people DO NOT PLAY if they're not having fun). I don't know about others, but I don't play the game if I don't enjoy it; apparently the exodus from FFXI around WoW's launch followed the same principle. FFXI slowly, slowly, declines while WoW has reached a plateau in its growth and slowly grows now instead of the massive bursts. -- that however may change, due to China's refusal accept Wrath of the Lich King expansion due to all the undeath references --

I think it's so funny reading about people crying and whinging and ******** about WoW as to why FFXIV may actually be more successful in comparison to FFXI. Blizzard knows when to listen, and when to not, to the playerbase concerning changes in the game. Sometimes they make mistakes, like all game developers, and will fix those mistakes. The difference of versus Square-Enix versus Blizzard? They actually give a **** enough to communicate with you and can man up to their mistakes. In FFXI you're just a filthy idiot, paying to experience THEIR dream and vision, and your enjoyment of it is entirely irrelevant. I seriously doubt that will change in FFXIV, and that will ultimately be the deciding factor if the game becomes a rousing success or merely something off to the side. This isn't the early 2000s where there was only a handful of MMO titles and SE didn't have to go to far lengths to keep their players because the brand name would carry (they knew it would). It's 2010 and SE can either smarten up and realize they're an underdog and actually put some effort into the game, or fall to the wayside and watch as FFXIV players leave to go back to FFXI or to other games.
#60 Feb 09 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
StrijderVechter wrote:
Seriously, STOP trying to act as if jobs in FFXI are in any way more complex than Aion, Age of Conan, LotRO, or even WoW. They aren't, and trying to delude yourselves into thinking they are are sad. You know why you did well in WoW when you had to sit? Because the UI was a **** of a lot more user friendly than FFXI's. Text menus are archaic. They're pointless, show lack of imagination, and a serious dose of laziness in the design department and ultimately feel like you're playing Dragon Quest I online with FF references. White Mage is no more difficult to grasp than Priest from WoW. Both heal, both have a HoT, and both have dispel options. The only difference is, one is displayed as to be immediately evident to the player how to place the ability somewhere where it is easily accessible. FFXI doesn't.


First of all, taking my quote out of context and attacking something I never explicitly said may make you look really clever, but to me, it just seems like you're trying to pick a fight because YOU are the one whining and ******** that people don't like WoW. You're honestly no different than any FFXI fan who degrades WoW for what you say about FFXI, so don't think you've all of a sudden won some war of WoW vs. FF, because you haven't. Some of us actually prefer a game where there aren't tons of 13 year old brats running around and "pwning noobs" because the user interface is EASY, no matter how you want to word it.

Quote:
Hate WoW all you want. Curse it, call it stupid, but the fact of the matter is it continues to do well. "Popular != good!" You know, that would work if we're talking about fast food (which is convenient in a rushed world) versus gaming (where people DO NOT PLAY if they're not having fun). I don't know about others, but I don't play the game if I don't enjoy it; apparently the exodus from FFXI around WoW's launch followed the same principle. FFXI slowly, slowly, declines while WoW has reached a plateau in its growth and slowly grows now instead of the massive bursts. -- that however may change, due to China's refusal accept Wrath of the Lich King expansion due to all the undeath references --


Second of all, I do not HATE WoW. In fact, my feeling towards WoW is pretty neutral, but my opinions on the gameplay are not positive and that's my opinion. Popular absolutely does not always = good because that, too, is an opinion. Just because Spider-Man 3 pulled in the most money out of all superhero movies doesn't mean it was the best. There is a lot that goes into making a game popular, and despite what you obviously believe, it's not just the content of the game. WoW is a lot like fast food, so thanks for the metaphor. Just because people like to eat McDonald's doesn't make it healthy, and just because people play WoW doesn't mean it is a GOOD game.

Quote:
I think it's so funny reading about people crying and whinging and ******** about WoW as to why FFXIV may actually be more successful in comparison to FFXI. Blizzard knows when to listen, and when to not, to the playerbase concerning changes in the game. Sometimes they make mistakes, like all game developers, and will fix those mistakes. The difference of versus Square-Enix versus Blizzard? They actually give a **** enough to communicate with you and can man up to their mistakes. In FFXI you're just a filthy idiot, paying to experience THEIR dream and vision, and your enjoyment of it is entirely irrelevant. I seriously doubt that will change in FFXIV, and that will ultimately be the deciding factor if the game becomes a rousing success or merely something off to the side. This isn't the early 2000s where there was only a handful of MMO titles and SE didn't have to go to far lengths to keep their players because the brand name would carry (they knew it would). It's 2010 and SE can either smarten up and realize they're an underdog and actually put some effort into the game, or fall to the wayside and watch as FFXIV players leave to go back to FFXI or to other games.


I honestly don't care if FFXIV is more successful than FFXI, so pulling this into your little tirade in direct conflict with my quote is also out of place. I'm talking about what I want to see and what I don't want to see in FFXIV. Whether that means pulling a bad example from WoW, AoC, or even FFXI is of little consequence to me. I have bashed FFXI many times in my day because it's not perfect, so you can stop defending your girlfriend of an MMO so vehemently to me because it's nothing personal.

Also, calling people filthy idiots because they have different taste than you doesn't really give you any credibility. Your argument is so one-sided I'm not even offended at the fact you're getting off-topic. I only want to obliterate WoW for the specific reasons I cited, and it was really more of a joke than truth (if you weren't so in love with the game, maybe you'd have noticed). To be honest, I love having WoW around because it keeps the douche players out of the games I like to play. I don't want SE to sell out like WoW because I ENJOY playing a game where not every single person cries about something until they get their way. That is my main point. I am saying I don't WANT SE to target the entire world of people like WoW has done because I have a better experience without them doing so. I enjoyed the target audience that was achieved with FFXI, and although I know it won't be exactly the same, I don't want it to change so drastically that I'm no longer comfortable playing an MMO. This is JUST a personal preference I felt someone else was also expressing, NOT something I am saying needs to be felt by everyone.

The original post I was addressing in the first place was about not being MAINSTREAM, not about whether or not WoW sucks compared to FFXI, so why don't you read more of the thread before you go trying to tear down an argument no one is making. I am saying if I wanted a mainstream game that caters to the masses, I'd play WoW. But, as it so happens, I don't. I am truly happy that many people have found a game that suits them, and that's exactly what some of us are trying to do with FXIV, if that's okay with you.

But does your tantrum make you feel better?
#61 Feb 09 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
51 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Auftragskiller wrote:
So a game is bad because the journey is the way?
Because you're not arriving endgame within less then a week?

For most people the fun part of the game is actually playing the game, not grinding out quests and mobs for hours on end.

You're not going to have crazy mechanics in leveling; you get to those when you play endgame.

So yes, FFXI is a bad game. It was terrible, actually. I loved the crafting, jobs, etc, but the endgame was so completely God-awful that I couldn't believe that I had stuck with it for so long after playing endgame in WoW.

I sincerely hope that SE has learned from Blizzard.




I sincerely hope they do not... And thankfully they probably won't. :D
____________________________
Name: Robbin
Jobs: WHM Lv.85, DNC Lv. 80, BLM Lv.76, COR Lv. 67, SMN Lv. 62.

Nation: Bastok Rank 9
Server: Ifrit


#62 Feb 09 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
*
108 posts
WoW has way more players than FFXI does and than FXIV might but its quality is sub par and its fan base is a weak crowd of casuals and kids and those who jump into gaming like its the latest trend. SE has a solid foundation of loyal to semi loyal players who know already what they are looking for in a game.
scrape the surface of mmos and you will find WoW but dip deep and discover rare gems like FFXI
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#63 Feb 09 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
WesleeTaru wrote:
I sincerely hope they do not... And thankfully they probably won't. :D


Sounds to me like they already have, and the hope of objective people will be that they'll take what works...regardless of who did it first (or best, or with the most people)...and mix it in with a wide variety of new things and wrap it up with the FF style we know and love.
#64 Feb 09 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
*
192 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Sounds to me like they already have, and the hope of objective people will be that they'll take what works...regardless of who did it first (or best, or with the most people)...and mix it in with a wide variety of new things and wrap it up with the FF style we know and love.


Always this. What's important is the changes they make, that they pay attention to the right things. Where they take the ideas from is wholly irrelevant, provided the end product is what it needs to be.

Like it or not WoW did a bunch of good things; No, not just "casual" things, either.
____________________________
The Other Castle
#65 Feb 11 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Default
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
Some of us actually prefer a game where there aren't tons of 13 year old brats running around and "pwning noobs" because the user interface is EASY, no matter how you want to word it.

Second of all, I do not HATE WoW. In fact, my feeling towards WoW is pretty neutral,

Had to LOL pretty hard at this.

I met far more people that were in their 20s, 30s, and 40s in WoW than I did in FFXI.

Also, wouldn't you want an easy UI? If a UI is a pain in the *** and doesn't work, isn't that completely obtuse and a pain?

Oh, wait. I'm getting into familiar territory: PC vs Mac debates commence. I'll just be over here recalling when my friends told me in 2001 that the iPod was stupid because it was so easy to use.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#66 Feb 11 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
****
4,148 posts
If getting to "the end" of FF14 takes the better part of three years as long as it doesn't take that long due to "hurry up and wait" mechanics, thats fine with me.

I was perfectly happy in my early years of FFXI exploring, leveling up, doing rank 1-5 missions. It was quite literally the slowest progress and simultaneously the least frustrating and more rewarding part of my FFXI "career".

"hurry up and wait mechanisms" was what killed FF11 for me every time I restarted my sub. Well that and lack of support for UI extension and "hidden stats"
____________________________
Mishana: DRG | THF | RDM | NIN
#67 Feb 11 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
Levish wrote:
If getting to "the end" of FF14 takes the better part of three years as long as it doesn't take that long due to "hurry up and wait" mechanics, thats fine with me.

I was perfectly happy in my early years of FFXI exploring, leveling up, doing rank 1-5 missions. It was quite literally the slowest progress and simultaneously the least frustrating and more rewarding part of my FFXI "career".


I agree. I didn't rush to endgame in FFXI per se...though having changed my main about 4-5 times before finally settling on a job that I liked, I definitely felt behind the eight ball relative to my friends. I didn't rush to endgame in WoW, either...I don't recall how long it took me to level to the cap (70 at the time) but I enjoyed it. I'm not looking to rush to endgame in any other MMO, either. All I'm wanting to see is a game where I rarely feel compelled to blast through a particular stretch of progression because it's boring.

Quote:
"hurry up and wait mechanisms" was what killed FF11 for me every time I restarted my sub. Well that and lack of support for UI extension and "hidden stats"


UI extensions are something that I'm mostly ambivalent towards. Having FFXIV on console(s) as well as PC means I'm not expecting third party UI extensions to be an option, and that in of itself doesn't really bother me. At the same time, I'm hoping SE will offer a more diverse array of customization for the stock UI than simply changing background colors/textures and font sizes for the chat frame.
#68 Feb 11 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Had to LOL pretty hard at this.

I met far more people that were in their 20s, 30s, and 40s in WoW than I did in FFXI.

Also, wouldn't you want an easy UI? If a UI is a pain in the *** and doesn't work, isn't that completely obtuse and a pain?

Oh, wait. I'm getting into familiar territory: PC vs Mac debates commence. I'll just be over here recalling when my friends told me in 2001 that the iPod was stupid because it was so easy to use.


I personally did not find the UI in FFXI to be a "pain," nor do I think it didn't work. That's not saying that it couldn't be improved, because it obviously can. It required me to learn more about the game and I absolutely loved the customizable macros. And yeah, I probably should have thrown in that ANYONE running around doing that, at any age, is annoying. There just happen to be more of them in WoW since it's a PvP game.

There is a big difference between making something easy to use to sell it to the masses because there is no being "good and bad" at it (like with an ipod) and making a videogame so easy to beat that anyone with no brain can do it. If every single videogame out there was made super easy and had everything spoon fed to you and placed right in front of your face, I know I sure as **** wouldn't play them anymore. An example might be one of the older Mortal Kombat games, or any number of fighting games for that matter. If you could press one button and automatically do a combo, there would be no such thing as skill to the game. My friends can absolutely kick my *** at Mortal Kombat because they have skill, as in they learned the button combinations to use their characters much better than I can and therefore deserve to be better at the game than me, someone who doesn't spend any time trying to learn it at all. This is the same problem I find with UI's like WoW and other games with similar UI. Running around and saying "IN YO FACE" because the creators handed them the skill you need to play the game doesn't give people as much street cred as they think. Games aren't meant to be too easy OR too difficult, and I find that the WoW UI was too easy when I used it. Comparing the play of videogame to the ease of using ipod isn't really proving anything. Sorry if this offends anyone who has a hard time with it.

edit: left out the quote

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:51pm by Bluefirefly
#69 Feb 11 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
Bluefirefly wrote:
There is a big difference between making something easy to use to sell it to the masses because there is no being "good and bad" at it (like with an ipod) and making a videogame so easy to beat that anyone with no brain can do it. If every single videogame out there was made super easy and had everything spoon fed to you and placed right in front of your face, I know I sure as **** wouldn't play them anymore.


The only thing I can think of that you might be referring to there might be addons like DBM/BigWigs in WoW? Maybe? You're not really being all that clear. The general reference of UI incorporates many different aspects of the game. Maybe you can help clear up just what it is you're referring to.
#70 Feb 11 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Had to LOL pretty hard at this.

I met far more people that were in their 20s, 30s, and 40s in WoW than I did in FFXI.

Also, wouldn't you want an easy UI? If a UI is a pain in the *** and doesn't work, isn't that completely obtuse and a pain?

Oh, wait. I'm getting into familiar territory: PC vs Mac debates commence. I'll just be over here recalling when my friends told me in 2001 that the iPod was stupid because it was so easy to use.


I personally did not find the UI in FFXI to be a "pain," nor do I think it didn't work. That's not saying that it couldn't be improved, because it obviously can. It required me to learn more about the game and I absolutely loved the customizable macros. And yeah, I probably should have thrown in that ANYONE running around doing that, at any age, is annoying. There just happen to be more of them in WoW since it's a PvP game.

There is a big difference between making something easy to use to sell it to the masses because there is no being "good and bad" at it (like with an ipod) and making a videogame so easy to beat that anyone with no brain can do it. If every single videogame out there was made super easy and had everything spoon fed to you and placed right in front of your face, I know I sure as **** wouldn't play them anymore.

This is the same problem I find with UI's like WoW and other games with similar UI. Running around and saying "IN YO FACE" because Blizzard handed them the skill you need to play the game doesn't give people as much street cred as they think. Games aren't meant to be too easy OR too difficult, and I find that the WoW UI was too easy when I used it. Comparing the play of videogame to the ease of using ipod isn't really proving anything. Sorry if this offends anyone who has a hard time with it.

First, I didn't say FFXI was necessarily hard to use; it was just obtuse.

Second, an easy-to-use UI doesn't make a game require less skill. Try playing PvP against me or any other player that's been to 2200+ in the arenas. No matter what you do, you're not going to beat us unless you've got as much skill as we have, and that's not from the UI. WoW is an easy game to level in, but most stuff after that takes far more skill than anything in FFXI.

I don't care if you want to argue the point; I've got more experience in both games than you do, ergo I have a better point of view. That's an objective truth.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#71 Feb 11 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
To AureliusSir, I wasn't specifically referring to WoW with my entire argument, but I'll try to think of some more concrete examples to use because you're right, I am definitely being too general to prove my direct point but I'll get back to it later.

Overlord Theophany wrote:

First, I didn't say FFXI was necessarily hard to use; it was just obtuse.

Second, an easy-to-use UI doesn't make a game require less skill. Try playing PvP against me or any other player that's been to 2200+ in the arenas. No matter what you do, you're not going to beat us unless you've got as much skill as we have, and that's not from the UI. WoW is an easy game to level in, but most stuff after that takes far more skill than anything in FFXI.

I don't care if you want to argue the point; I've got more experience in both games than you do, ergo I have a better point of view. That's an objective truth.


I also never said you said that FFXI was hard to use, so I don't know why you're starting off with that.

And having an easy-to-use UI does make a game require less skill, than OTHER games with harder UI's. Just because you are better at WoW than someone who just started because you don't do anything other than play it doesn't mean that the game is taking less skill than another game. I am saying that I found WoW easier to play as new to the game than FFXI. That's all.

I'm sorry you feel that stuff after leveling takes far more skill than "anything" in FFXI. I don't think everyone else will agree with you, but that's your opinion.

To assume you have more experience in both games than me even though I have never explicitly stated my experience in either of them shows a superiority complex in your argument. You may have done things in both games that I have never done before, but I would be willing to bet I have also done things that you have never done before, and therefore instead of saying you have MORE experience with such certainty, maybe you should suggest you have DIFFERENT experience, which I would be willing to accept as an immediate truth. You will never have a better point of view than anyone if that is how you think because your judgment is clouded by your arrogance. THAT is an objective truth. Your point of view is certainly not better, just different. So, you can argue the point if you want, but I'm still going to disagree unless you can actually prove to me I should be thinking something different. You have failed to do that here.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 5:12pm by Bluefirefly
#72 Feb 11 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
To assume you have more experience in both games than me even though I have never explicitly stated my experience in either of them shows a superiority complex in your argument. You may have done things in both games that I have never done before, but I would be willing to bet I have also done things that you have never done before, and therefore instead of saying you have MORE experience with such certainty, maybe you should suggest you have DIFFERENT experience, which I would be willing to accept as an immediate truth. You will never have a better point of view than anyone if that is how you think because your judgment is clouded by your arrogance. THAT is an objective truth. Your point of view is certainly not better, just different. So, you can argue the point if you want, but I'm still going to disagree unless you can actually prove to me I should be thinking something different. You have failed to do that here.

I've killed AV (legit), and I've played at 2200+ in arenas (as well as doing most of WoW's endgame). I likely have better gear than you in both games. I have more experience than you in both games.

My point of view is better because I have experienced more of both games. Your point of view is still valid, but mine is more valid because I have more experience.

This is like asking a high school football player about the concussion rules of football, while asking the same thing of a 10-year veteran NFL player. The high schooler still has a valid point of view, but the NFL player obviously has more experience and a clearer and better point of view on the subject, due to experience.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#73 Feb 12 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
I've killed AV (legit), and I've played at 2200+ in arenas (as well as doing most of WoW's endgame). I likely have better gear than you in both games. I have more experience than you in both games.

My point of view is better because I have experienced more of both games. Your point of view is still valid, but mine is more valid because I have more experience.

This is like asking a high school football player about the concussion rules of football, while asking the same thing of a 10-year veteran NFL player. The high schooler still has a valid point of view, but the NFL player obviously has more experience and a clearer and better point of view on the subject, due to experience.


You're clearly overlooking the entire argument in order to start some kind of ******* contest, to which I don't care to take part in so this is the last time I'll address an off-topic argument with you in this thread.

There are a lot of other aspects to your argument that could make your opinion less valid than mine depending on who is reading it, lack of objectivity being one of them. There's more to it than just experience. For all I know, you could have piggy-backed your way to AV, been power-leveled, bought gil for gear, skipped half the quests in the game, or many other examples. I'm not saying you actually did it, but you're clearly not understanding my points because you're not taking half of what I said into consideration.

Everyone who plays FFXI doesn't do it so one day they can say "I killed AV so I have more experience than you." Some people have absolutely no interest in killing AV. Does that make you better than them? Maybe to you you're gear is "better" but I'm willing to bet we don't even play the same jobs, use our jobs for the same tasks, and maybe I wear a piece of gear because I feel like it or it has the sig of one of my friends. That's the beauty of FFXI. It's not ALL about killing AV. You can choose what you do, whether you sit in a town and craft for your friends or lead people through ZMs a million times.

I am sure people in this world exist who have never played football in their lives and yet know more about it than any NFL player. Your scope of thinking is far too narrow for me to even continue this argument. Can we stick to the actual subject matter instead of trying to stupidly assign people "validity points"? If I'm not mistaken, the general population of this board does that for us by rating our posts, so let's just keep letting ZAM do it's job by providing a place where every individual poster doesn't decide their own worth because, this is just a hunch, but I think some people would be way off in their assumptions.
#74 Feb 12 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
I am sure people in this world exist who have never played football in their lives and yet know more about it than any NFL player. Your scope of thinking is far too narrow for me to even continue this argument. Can we stick to the actual subject matter instead of trying to stupidly assign people "validity points"? If I'm not mistaken, the general population of this board does that for us by rating our posts, so let's just keep letting ZAM do it's job by providing a place where every individual poster doesn't decide their own worth because, this is just a hunch, but I think some people would be way off in their assumptions.

So you're saying that because I'm not pro-FFXI in my posts and people rate me down, that my points are less valid than yours?

That's just silly.

Let's go back to what you asserted: FFXI is harder than WoW.

Now, who should we trust when it comes to making a judgement on these two games, someone who has played the majority of both games, or someone that's played a fraction of both?

Your straw man argument aside, I think it's fairly obvious that the person with more experience should be trusted more with their opinion.

The only reason FFXI was "hard" was because of the time it took; EXP parties were ridiculously easy. In WoW, there's not much difficulty either, except for what you make for yourself: soloing group quests, etc. Can we both agree that neither game is difficult when you're leveling to the level cap?

If we can, then it comes down to endgame. FFXI is relatively difficult, but it's only got a single facet. There's no PvP competition, and that's where WoW is truly more difficult than FFXI, because it's only mildly more so in the PvE department.

But WoW's PvP is a far different beast. Even me, someone who's played at 2200+ in arenas, has a hard time against the best in the world. Someone that doesn't play any arena at all would probably not be able to land much more than a single hit on my rogue.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#75 Feb 12 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
So you're saying that because I'm not pro-FFXI in my posts and people rate me down, that my points are less valid than yours?

That's just silly.


Who said anything about it being necessary to support FFXI? What a sad twist of my words this is. There are other people who post on this site who are not "pro-FFXI" in their posts and their arguments are appreciated because they actually make sense. That's the whole point in being objective, something you clearly don't know how to do. Obviously if people rate you down, your points can't be all that valid. Unless you're calling everyone other than you wrong or something. And that's just silly.

Quote:
Let's go back to what you asserted: FFXI is harder than WoW.


No, actually, I never said that. Once again you are failing to make an argument because you are simply making things up to start a ******* contest. It's actually boring at this point. Just so you don't have to go through the trouble of looking back through my previous posts (I know you're too busy being more experienced at videogames to do so), I said that when I played WoW, I found the UI to be far easier than FFXI to the point where I could play an endgame character in WoW with no problems even though I had never played it before.

Quote:
Now, who should we trust when it comes to making a judgement on these two games, someone who has played the majority of both games, or someone that's played a fraction of both?

Your straw man argument aside, I think it's fairly obvious that the person with more experience should be trusted more with their opinion.


Once again, you have no proof to validate this point. Your argument can't even be graced with the title of straw-man. It's actually just stupid at this point, and I'm not one to name-call. Once again, sorry you don't like the way this site works, but everyone else seems to appreciate the rating system just fine, whereas they obviously don't appreciate or trust your "more-experienced posts." That's really not my fault and doesn't reflect on me at all. That is really flattering that you have to call my argument "straw-man" instead of attacking it head on because you can't, though.

Quote:
The only reason FFXI was "hard" was because of the time it took; EXP parties were ridiculously easy. In WoW, there's not much difficulty either, except for what you make for yourself: soloing group quests, etc. Can we both agree that neither game is difficult when you're leveling to the level cap?


This really isn't the issue I was addressing in my point, so I still don't understand what you're trying to prove here. I don't even remember posting that it was "hard," but if you say so.

Quote:
If we can, then it comes down to endgame. FFXI is relatively difficult, but it's only got a single facet. There's no PvP competition, and that's where WoW is truly more difficult than FFXI, because it's only mildly more so in the PvE department.

But WoW's PvP is a far different beast. Even me, someone who's played at 2200+ in arenas, has a hard time against the best in the world. Someone that doesn't play any arena at all would probably not be able to land much more than a single hit on my rogue.


Trying to say WoW is harder because it includes PvP is pointless because it is a different type of game and the argument I was making in the first place had NOTHING to do with PvP aspects in EITHER game. None of this pertains to the scope of my initial argument. Why don't you try actually reading my posts instead of skimming them for something you can actually tackle because clearly you're inept when it comes to arguing anything other than "WoW is better than FFXI" and you even do THAT poorly. Instead of trying to turn what I'm saying into something I'm not to get the last word, why don't you try actually contributing something to the argument. No one's going to "take your word" for anything if you can't even provide supporting, objective examples. Just some advice, unless of course you also have more experience arguing than I do, or something.

Edited, Feb 12th 2010 7:38pm by Bluefirefly
#76 Feb 12 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
*
108 posts
rating your relevancy on a forum based on your resume on a mmo is foolish.
One of the wisest ppl I know never even got a 75 til after 4 years on the game but knew every craft recipe to every craft had more gil than most end game players and was very skillful in his jobs. His end game experience was nil but by choice.
Lets look at another indivudual I know this time a taru RDM who can't beat maat quits the taru makes a elvaan buys gil gets PLed lvls 3 75s and has top gear minus salvage (relic weapon included) in under 6 months from creation of said second character. The second person at first glance might have a more impressive resume but the first is more talented skilled mature and has not-so-common sense.
experience is gained if you excel or phail regardless its the trials and tribulations. The wipes, the delevels, the losing of mats, the failed runs, the poor gear choices, the latest discovery on wiki or alla....
We are here to debate and or speculate not engage in a ******* contest.
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#77 Feb 12 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Default
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
Quote:
Let's go back to what you asserted: FFXI is harder than WoW.


No, actually, I never said that. Once again you are failing to make an argument because you are simply making things up to start a ******* contest. It's actually boring at this point. Just so you don't have to go through the trouble of looking back through my previous posts (I know you're too busy being more experienced at videogames to do so), I said that when I played WoW, I found the UI to be far easier than FFXI to the point where I could play an endgame character in WoW with no problems even though I had never played it before.

You actually said:
Bluefirefly wrote:
I personally did not find the UI in FFXI to be a "pain," nor do I think it didn't work. That's not saying that it couldn't be improved, because it obviously can. It required me to learn more about the game and I absolutely loved the customizable macros. And yeah, I probably should have thrown in that ANYONE running around doing that, at any age, is annoying. There just happen to be more of them in WoW since it's a PvP game.

There is a big difference between making something easy to use to sell it to the masses because there is no being "good and bad" at it (like with an ipod) and making a videogame so easy to beat that anyone with no brain can do it. If every single videogame out there was made super easy and had everything spoon fed to you and placed right in front of your face, I know I sure as **** wouldn't play them anymore. An example might be one of the older Mortal Kombat games, or any number of fighting games for that matter. If you could press one button and automatically do a combo, there would be no such thing as skill to the game. My friends can absolutely kick my *** at Mortal Kombat because they have skill, as in they learned the button combinations to use their characters much better than I can and therefore deserve to be better at the game than me, someone who doesn't spend any time trying to learn it at all. This is the same problem I find with UI's like WoW and other games with similar UI. Running around and saying "IN YO FACE" because the creators handed them the skill you need to play the game doesn't give people as much street cred as they think. Games aren't meant to be too easy OR too difficult, and I find that the WoW UI was too easy when I used it. Comparing the play of videogame to the ease of using ipod isn't really proving anything. Sorry if this offends anyone who has a hard time with it.

Which implies that the game is easy, especially in the context of the rest of your post.

If you're not asserting that WoW is easier than FFXI because of the UI implementation, what are you trying to imply?

Because if the game isn't actually easier because the UI makes it easier, how is that in any way relevant?

"I found the UI to make WoW easy, but it's not any harder or easier than FFXI, because that's not what I'm saying."
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#78 Feb 12 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Which implies that the game is easy, especially in the context of the rest of your post.

If you're not asserting that WoW is easier than FFXI because of the UI implementation, what are you trying to imply?

Because if the game isn't actually easier because the UI makes it easier, how is that in any way relevant?

"I found the UI to make WoW easy, but it's not any harder or easier than FFXI, because that's not what I'm saying."


Trying to pull more "implications" from my posts only makes you look that much more desperate to find an argument. I'm specifically referring to the UI in my OP, and the other quotes you pulled were to combat other comments and arguments that YOU made, not to directly support my first post. Is this how you honestly try to win fights? You run people around in circles until your argument resembles something pertinent? Because it's not working with me. I am saying the UI in WoW was too easy. Point. Done. There is no "implying" anything nor am I saying the GAME AS A WHOLE is easier than FFXI. How can you not realize that UI is only one aspect to a game? The UI doesn't define the entirety of a game, and I never explicitly said nor implied that it did, I just don't like the UI in WoW.

To anyone with half a brain, the point in bold you tried to make is easily answered. I find Ninja Gaiden II to have an easier UI than some games, but the content of the game itself was ridiculously hard. Just because I know how to work a game off the bat doesn't mean it always helps when it comes to the content of the game. I know in specific examples it does, but once again, the scope of your argument is pretty small.

Trying to misquote me to make me sound foolish just because you don't understand my argument is really immature. If you honestly don't get what I'm saying by now, you should just give up. If you're not trying to argue the fact that the UI in WoW is NOT easy, whether being compared to FFXI or NOT, then don't bother replying to my posts because that's what I'm talking about, not any of the half-assed nonsense you are trying to bleed from my posts. Besides, I think people get tired of reading stupid 1vs1 arguments, especially if they're not going anywhere due to stubborn people looking for a reason to be heard and state for the millionth time they have more experience and validity than someone else. I know I do.
#79 Feb 12 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
*
128 posts
I'm not going to bother quoting just to make this page longer than it already is. Straight up, I'm directly referring to this stupid argument between Bluefirefly and Theophany.

So I've read over this little war that's going on between you two and it seems pretty clear what's going on. Theophany, you've been going off topic ever since your first reply to Bluefirefly defending him/herself. The discussion at hand WAS the User Interface of WoW vs. FFXI. And the difficulty of maneuvering the UI does not directly relate to the difficulty of the game. But I think Bluefirefly already did a good job of illustrating that with her examples.

Another thing, it's a pretty ballsy move to assume that you have more experience in a game than someone else when you have ZERO clue how much he/she has played. I mean, unless you've been stalking Bluefirefly (may God, and not some idiotic "manifestation" of Him, watch over you) since he/she started playing FFXI. You've defeated Absolute Virtue, legitimately (so you say). I congratulate you. But that is only one monster in this entire game, albeit the strongest of them all. Experience simply isn't measured like that, ALSO as Bluefirefly stated and backed up clearly.

Once again, as your name suggests, your cockiness is glowing. But I guess some people need to believe that they are superior to everyone else (though this thread suggests otherwise). Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy. Take the time to go back and reread this thread, read everything Bluefirefly has said and read your responses. And open your mind to the possibility that everyone else isn't wrong and you're not right.
____________________________
~Twangaz~
Server: Seraph
Tarutaru ~ 75BLM 75RDM 37WHM
#80 Feb 13 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
*
108 posts
so much for the original topic lol..
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 14 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (14)