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Boss fights, Marathon vs Zerg.Follow

#1 Jan 31 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello friends.

One of my favorite things about final fantasy XI, and the final fantasy series in general, is the epic boss fights. I really liked it when a boss fight would last for more than 20 minutes, some even up to an hour. Of coarse, anything longer than an hour i feel is really pushing it (coughPWcough).

I know that FFXI these days has become more of a zerg style game when it comes to endgame, thats not to say that alot of encounters don't require strategy, just that gear and merit updates over the years have allowed zerging to become more possible. But for the sake of simplicity, im going to call FFXI a "marathon" game when it comes to this thread. My defenitions are as follows:

Marathon Boss fight: Establish a solid foundation, you should ideally be able to fight the boss forever if need be (not considering a type of rage system), MP is ideally never being used up faster than it is being regenerated. Once your guild/linkshell is capable of surviving the mobs offense, you can then focus on taking the mob down.

Zerg Boss Fight: You are generally incapable of surviving the mobs offense for a prolonged period of time, this is countered by throwing as much damage at the mob as possible, hoping that it dies before you're healers run out of MP.

WoW would be what i consider a zerg-type game when it comes to bosses, whereas FFXI is more of a marathon type game, i realize i am generalizing completely as all encounters are different but again, for simplicities sake i will say these generalizations are appropriate.

I'm really hoping they keep the final fantasy spirit when it comes to endgame and make the fights epic and long. I am worried however that SE will opt for a quicker solution to engame with bosses only taking 10 minutes max, like WoW. They have been saying this game will be much more casual friendly, which is why shorter boss fights makes sense. I'd like to say that they should keep endgame for the more hardcore players, but who knows what SE will end up doing.


my question: Which type of boss encounter would you like to see in XIV?

Edited, Jan 31st 2010 5:57pm by MrNumptyk
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#2 Jan 31 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've never really been a big fan of zerg fights. I liked fairly long boss fights lasting 30 mins to an hour (but not 2+ hour ones). Overall, long boss fights require more strategy and concentration. It also involves more skill than zergs. Zergs usually just come down to how good everyone's gear is.

Fights where skill > gear is my preference.
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#3 Jan 31 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, and another thing. Even though I've never really played WoW, I've watched videos and read info on some of their boss fights. A lot of them require more strategy than the bosses in FFXI. I'd like to see some of that in XIV.
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#4 Jan 31 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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yea, there is a fair amount of strategy in WoW's boss fights, i never argued that.

one of the problems i found with WoW's boss fights however was that they were totaly scripted, mobs didnt have TP or anything like that, they would use certain abilities once they reached a certain health level, or once some other condition was met, this meant that boss fights were 100% predictable, you know exactly what the boss is going to do and when.

This has gotten to the point in the game where to even join an endgame guild you HAVE to download the mod that tells you what the mob is going to do and when. Boss fights in WoW are pretty much "follow what the mod tells you to do and you win".

things may have changed since i last played however, which was last summer.
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#5 Jan 31 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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There's a couple things that I would like to see in FFXIV boss fights.

One would be to get rid of the ******** we all know as stacking, with 10+ people stacking on a tank, directly to the side, or behind a mob.

I really hope that the level of action has a page taken from WoW, but modified to meet a Final Fantasy game style. My favourite part of raiding was that in a 25 man boss fight, each person needed to be on their toes, every second of every battle, no matter if you were a tank, damage dealer or healer, as opposed to FFXI's pick your positioning, and sit back an hit macros.

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#6 Jan 31 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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I hope they have bosses that require strategy to defeat. I think boss fights should take around 20mins-1hr depending what your fighting it for. If it goes over an hour then I know that for me anyway I start to get bored if I don't have different abilities/spells to use against it or if it seems like our group wasn't prepared and it is taking too long because of bad setup. Overall I like boss battles that need planning and different attacks/strategies to defeat it.
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#7 Jan 31 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know that Zerg is preventable unless you focus on halting certain tactics. Zerg became prevalent as the game got older due to the average quality of gear per person going up, and the introduction of new and more powerful pieces. You could go the AV route and actively fight Zerg, but doing that on a wide scale may make too many boss fights unfeasibly difficult.
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#8 Jan 31 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:
You could go the AV route and actively fight Zerg cheat,
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#9 Jan 31 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

This has gotten to the point in the game where to even join an endgame guild you HAVE to download the mod that tells you what the mob is going to do and when.


Totally untrue. You're an idiot if you need deadly boss mods. I always found it to be irritating when playing on my buddy's computer so I never downloaded it. I've run pretty much everything but new quarter in icecrown citadel.

In response to the question though, I'd like to see a mix of both. I liked the boss fights in FFXI, but it was a little boring if you were say a monk, having to wait around to chi blast every few minutes. This was alleviated later on in FFXI's existence though. I hope the fights are set up so that everyone gets a shot at the boss, as in WoW.. but a little more epic in scale like FFXI.
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#10 Jan 31 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Totally untrue. You're an idiot if you need deadly boss mods. I always found it to be irritating when playing on my buddy's computer so I never downloaded it. I've run pretty much everything but new quarter in icecrown citadel.


Aye, i wasn't saying the game is not possible without these mods, i agree that they were annoying to have to use, what i meant was that, on my server at least, you could not join any reputable endgame guild without having the mod. I'd not argue if you consider all these people idiots.
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#11 Jan 31 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd prefer to be able to zerg the adds but not the boss itself. Faf/Nid camp comes to mind....

My preference for boss fight is no longer than 2 hours. Some strategy to keep us busy would be really nice. Some fights, I had to monitor the boss move for hours only to stun it once every 10 minutes or so. I was so ready to fall asleep.....
#12 Feb 01 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:
I don't know that Zerg is preventable unless you focus on halting certain tactics. Zerg became prevalent as the game got older due to the average quality of gear per person going up, and the introduction of new and more powerful pieces. You could go the AV route and actively fight Zerg, but doing that on a wide scale may make too many boss fights unfeasibly difficult.



True. Kirin wasn't originally meant to be killed in 30 seconds, but people nowadays have good enough gear to do that.

One of the ways that you can shut down a zerg would be to introduce a "max damage allowed" system to HNMs. eg. If you do way too much damage within 10 seconds, it either turns invincible for a while or its defense shoots up.

Or they can simply design HNMs that strategically can't be zerged. Can't think of one at the top of my head right now but I'm sure other people can. Gotta go to work, I'll check back later. :P
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#13 Feb 01 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can think of alot more examples of boss fights that are difficult to zerg than I can fights where it's easy to.
I think that's because tank n' spank bosses are getting increasingly more rare as time goes on.

But just to provide some examples; 'I know we're in the middle of a fight, but play with my minions for a while, I'll just be over here' bosses, 'excuse me while I force you to dance around the room' bosses, 'defeating me is not how you win' bosses, 'run, fool, run' bosses, 'defeat me with the power of a puzzle' bosses, and 'multi-bosses that somehow force you to split up to fight them due to penultimate smiting, tag-team resurrection, or physical obstruction' are anti-zerg.



Edited, Feb 1st 2010 3:39am by Zemzelette
#14 Feb 01 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like a mix of both, and also a medium of both.

The good thing about marathon boss fight is that it can be really fun, and you can kind of feel the need to maintain good performance to survive and successfully kill the boss. But the problem is, it kinda sucks to have marathon fights if you're going to do it over and over and over and over again. And obviously as mentioned by some others, the level of difficulty is almost impossible to maintain if there are new/better gear released.

Marathon boss fight to me is preferable for quests/missions where you aren't expected to repeat the fight over and over and over again (unless you lose the previous try). To use FFXI comparison, probably something like Alexander fight, or add-ons final bosses (if not using super PT setup to easily win).

For the zerg, I wouldn't mind it being used for things that people will farm a lot.
#15 Feb 01 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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I think one of my biggest problems about WoW is it doesn't really seem like a team effort when downing a boss. I don't have to work with other DPS for positioning or to improve damage or to combine our CDs to create a burst effect for our mages. I hit my CDs, do lots of damage, and then wait til my CD are up again. All I have to worry about is doing my job and sometimes not even that. On raids with 2-3 overgeared players the rest can just slack off. Basically if you are geared enough you can zerg just about any boss with the occasional <Run Away! Boss is now casting Move!>

In XI you had to pay attention to what everyone was doing. We had stun orders so we could interrupt as many times as possible. Skill chains were being set up constantly and melee were working together to increase dps. Everyone was working together and collaborating with spells to make sure the boss was taken down effectively. Its been a while since i've been in XI endgame, but this was what I remember from Sea/Sky days.
#16 Feb 01 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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burtonsnow, I'm both with you and not.

As a DPS (Hunter) I'm constantly on the move, espesically since getting to WotLK endgame, and really like how there are tactics that need to be employed, especially those than involve the environment.

Every boss fight I was apart of (which technically wasn't that far) I would get aggro on the boss, and stand in one location while the healers stood in one spot and healed, and the damage dealers stood in their places and washed the mob until it died, with the exception of thieves.

I didn't really see much differentiation between regular mobs and boss mobs, except for the level of health and speed in which you had to mash the macros.
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#17 Feb 01 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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MrNumptyk wrote:
Marathon Boss fight: Establish a solid foundation, you should ideally be able to fight the boss forever if need be (not considering a type of rage system), MP is ideally never being used up faster than it is being regenerated. Once your guild/linkshell is capable of surviving the mobs offense, you can then focus on taking the mob down.

Zerg Boss Fight: You are generally incapable of surviving the mobs offense for a prolonged period of time, this is countered by throwing as much damage at the mob as possible, hoping that it dies before you're healers run out of MP.

WoW would be what i consider a zerg-type game when it comes to bosses, whereas FFXI is more of a marathon type game, i realize i am generalizing completely as all encounters are different but again, for simplicities sake i will say these generalizations are appropriate.

Did you really just call FFXI the opposite (supposedly, according to you) of a zerg game?

Yeah, that makes sense. Because all of my LSes attempts at AV didn't have approximately 100 people in the area ready to get invited, same thing to a lesser extent with our first attempts at Vrtra and the other world dragons.

What you've done is basically equated "long" and "short" to "marathon" and "zerg", which aren't the same at all. Zerging something implies using numbers to take something down, regardless of how weak those numbers are individually.

I'd also rather see something like Limbus instead of more world bosses; instanced combat with occasional bosses that last a decent amount of time (5-15 mins).
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#18 Feb 01 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Mix of both would be nice. WoW did it kind of well, however the game really doesn't provide much... support of each other.

Other then tanks provoking off each other and tanking bosses for a certain time there was nothing that anybody did. The game was built this way. Mages, huntards, locks and any other dps's... just dps. There are hardly any interuptions that work except in "certain" situations and in no way does anything you do affect how someone else does their job. When you needed iteruptions usually one class or a certain number of people took care of it while everyone else stands there like zombies.

I agree WoW is very cookie cutter but really they do ramp up the difficulty initially(which it should stay that way... but of course not kid friendly that way) and usually the dedicated and determined hammer their way through, figure out that strats and everything that make life easier.

In no way is that bad i think it's well done but it does always come down to gear.

FFXI could be the same but it was usually based upon long term thought and balance which resulted in many more options and ways you could do things and handle when sometimes unknown things pop up.

Both ways IMO would be perfect, shorter challanging fights will only be challanging for so long no matter what and the same with long battles.
#19 Feb 01 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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Vambran wrote:
burtonsnow, I'm both with you and not.

As a DPS (Hunter) I'm constantly on the move, espesically since getting to WotLK endgame, and really like how there are tactics that need to be employed, especially those than involve the environment.

Every boss fight I was apart of (which technically wasn't that far) I would get aggro on the boss, and stand in one location while the healers stood in one spot and healed, and the damage dealers stood in their places and washed the mob until it died, with the exception of thieves.

I didn't really see much differentiation between regular mobs and boss mobs, except for the level of health and speed in which you had to mash the macros.


I'm not saying it doesn't require personal strategy, because it does very much so, maybe even more than XI. What it doesn't require is the group to work together. In WoW if I die on festergut my party will most likely wipe, but its because i personally ****** up, not because my group didn't work as a team.

In WoW heroics it is not how well you work as a team, it is how much damage you can do. In XI if you have one player not using TP moves and creating skill chains it takes twice as long to kill something. Its very simple to kill stuff effectively in XI you have to work as a team, the same is not true for WoW.
#20 Feb 01 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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burtonsnow wrote:
I'm not saying it doesn't require personal strategy, because it does very much so, maybe even more than XI. What it doesn't require is the group to work together. In WoW if I die on festergut my party will most likely wipe, but its because i personally @#%^ed up, not because my group didn't work as a team.

Don't know how you came to this conclusion. So because you ****** up and your guild wipes, there's no aspect of teamwork involved in the game?

In my guild, we had officers calling to people if they were "standing in the fire", to use slang from WoW: that's teamwork.
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#21 Feb 01 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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The main difference is that WoW bosses are scripted encounters, and FFXI is not. I don't think it's so much a question of marathon vs Zerg, as both games have it.

It's mainly a question of wanting scripted encounters where the only difference from beating it the first and last time is using better gear, or do you want a boss like CoP wyrms, which you can beat a variety of ways:

1) multi-tank + alliance + 2nd alliance for adds
2) 6 kraken DRK zerg + support chainstun + bard group
3) 2-3hour 6 man party PLD/BRD/RDM/BLM/BLM/BLM jormungand (combination of gear and new strategy)
4) small alliance, 12-18 good players with a good strategy

Scripted encounters are very good before you figure out what the script is and are perfect for stuff like missions, things you don't really do over and over again, but it sucks for being the staple of end game PVE activity.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 6:49pm by odinpingpong
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#22 Feb 01 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
I'm not saying it doesn't require personal strategy, because it does very much so, maybe even more than XI. What it doesn't require is the group to work together. In WoW if I die on festergut my party will most likely wipe, but its because i personally @#%^ed up, not because my group didn't work as a team.

Don't know how you came to this conclusion. So because you @#%^ed up and your guild wipes, there's no aspect of teamwork involved in the game?

In my guild, we had officers calling to people if they were "standing in the fire", to use slang from WoW: that's teamwork.


It still isn't teamwork. It is a persons shortcomings affecting the group, which is a completely different story. If the only way to get out of fire was have your mage cast water on you then it would be teamwork, but since all I have to do is take two steps in either direction its my personal level of attentiveness, not how well we work in a group. Having someone shout at me isn't teamwork, its rude.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 6:43pm by burtonsnow
#23 Feb 01 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
Scripted encounters are very good before you figure out what the script is and are perfect for stuff like missions, things you don't really do over and over again, but it sucks for being the staple of end game PVE activity.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 6:49pm by odinpingpong



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I know I should have edited my previous post, I just really love this statement it needs its own post

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 6:53pm by burtonsnow
#24 Feb 02 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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It still isn't teamwork. It is a persons shortcomings affecting the group, which is a completely different story. If the only way to get out of fire was have your mage cast water on you then it would be teamwork, but since all I have to do is take two steps in either direction its my personal level of attentiveness, not how well we work in a group. Having someone shout at me isn't teamwork, its rude.


WoW's events have plenty of teamwork:

1. There are quite a few encounters(both raid, and heroic) that require you to save a group member from ice tombs/chains/being sacrificed/etc. Teamwork.

2. Cleansing/Decursing/etc fatal debuffs from party members is teamwork.

3. On my druid, shifting out of cat form(dps) to Innervate a struggling healer is teamwork.

4. Again, on my druid, shifting out of cat form to cast Rebirth to raise a fallen group member is teamwork.

5. On my hunter, I consistently Misdirect onto the tank during a boss encounter, giving my threat for a few seconds to the tank. Also teamwork.

6. On my hunter, I will have my pet(or myself) pull an add off a healer/caster, as they are incredibly more squishy than myself. Teamwork.

7. Same with my druid. Switching from cat form to bear form(tank), to taunt a stray add off a healer/caster to save them. Teamwork.

8. CCing(crowd control) adds, kiting adds, all so the rest of my team can get situated, counts as teamwork.

9. Casting the necessary buffs and debuffs during an encounter, so that the other dps can boost their damage, or so the tank takes less damage, is also teamwork.

The above list isn't meant to come off as hostile, its just that there is a lot of teamwork involved. You could even go as far as to say tanking alone is teamwork, as you're preventing the boss from curb stomping everyone else. Healing is teamwork, because you're preventing the death from one or more group members. Dps itself is teamwork, because the faster the boss dies, the less damage your tank is taking, and the less healing your healers need to do.

Both games require an extensive amount of teamwork to be successful. You can't throw a random group of people into an encounter on either game, and tell them to do whatever they want, and expect them to come out successful.
#25 Feb 02 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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I would probably vote for marathon over zerg, too. But I think they shouldn't really last more than 20-30 minutes tops. I mean, REALLY long boss fights just start to get redundant and after a while you get bored. I hate that "OK, I get it, could you just please die already?" feeling.
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#26 Feb 02 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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My favorite boss encounter in FFXI was King Behemoth back in the day. I don't know how it's done now, but back then we'd have PLDs and RDMs kite tank the thing while BLMs nuked and bound, rangers plinked away, SMNs either nuked or left a carbuncle on it to keep hate, and everyone else healed, buffed, or TP'd up in the zone to drop spirits within on it. It was always a ton of fun to do even if it took a long time because you had to constantly adapt as the fight went along and things could fall apart at any moment.
#27 Feb 02 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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burtonsnow wrote:
If the only way to get out of fire was have your mage cast water on you then it would be teamwork, but since all I have to do is take two steps in either direction its my personal level of attentiveness, not how well we work in a group. Having someone shout at me isn't teamwork, its rude.

Having someone tell me that my gear isn't good enough on my NIN (when I had average gear; not many +1s, but the rest was of appropriate level) is rude. Telling someone that they're in the fire isn't rude, it's teamwork.

It's like a grenade landing at your buddy's feet and you not telling him because you don't want to be "rude". No, you're going to yell "GRENADE" and hope he gets the **** away from it.

There are also multiple fights in WoW where you need to free raid members from a mechanic in the fight; I specifically remember Illhoof because he would routinely put me in chains 2-3 times per attempt, (seemingly) more than anyone else in the group.
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#28 Feb 02 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I think most players would want the deciding factor of a fight to be skill rather than gear. However, a fight that lasts 2 hours doesn't necessarily require twice as much skill as a fight that lasts 1 hour. Twice as much endurance, but not twice as much skill.
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#29 Feb 02 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

Having someone tell me that my gear isn't good enough on my NIN (when I had average gear; not many +1s, but the rest was of appropriate level) is rude.



Sometimes the truth hurts. That doesn't mean it's rude, though. For a job that is relied on to prevent widespread rape and pillage of the group, gear can make as much of a difference, if not more, as skill. The difference between 3% haste and 20%+ on gear can be significantly beneficial in some fights. But, you already know this.
#30 Feb 02 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Default
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
If the only way to get out of fire was have your mage cast water on you then it would be teamwork, but since all I have to do is take two steps in either direction its my personal level of attentiveness, not how well we work in a group. Having someone shout at me isn't teamwork, its rude.

Having someone tell me that my gear isn't good enough on my NIN (when I had average gear; not many +1s, but the rest was of appropriate level) is rude. Telling someone that they're in the fire isn't rude, it's teamwork.

It's like a grenade landing at your buddy's feet and you not telling him because you don't want to be "rude". No, you're going to yell "GRENADE" and hope he gets the **** away from it.

There are also multiple fights in WoW where you need to free raid members from a mechanic in the fight; I specifically remember Illhoof because he would routinely put me in chains 2-3 times per attempt, (seemingly) more than anyone else in the group.


Ok, well there is some validity to your point...WoW fights sometimes do require teamwork...but in terms of how they compared to XI, it is no-where near the same amount (in my experience). Having only played a melee class in WoW I can safely say that the only things I would consider me doing that are labeled teamwork are getting people out of traps, all switching to the right mob, or ToT adds onto the tank. Maybe one out of every four fights has something like this, but even at that in the Lady Deathwhisper Encounter we did not set up a stun order to keep her from casting (although its highly recommended you do). We had a ****-ton of DPS and just burned her.

As far as I can remember for XI, every grouped fight required teamwork, and a lot of it if you wanted to do well. Add management, keeping debuffs on the mob and working with teammates to maximize the effect of your CD. I will say melee class in XI didn't require as much as casters, but it was every fight Add some personal skill tests like wow and you could end up with a very fun game.


I'm not trying to say one is better than the other...its just my opinion working with your team to bring down a mob is more fun and rewarding then doing 10k dps or 4k hps.
#31 Feb 02 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
As far as I can remember for XI, every grouped fight required teamwork, and a lot of it if you wanted to do well. Add management, keeping debuffs on the mob and working with teammates to maximize the effect of your CD. I will say melee class in XI didn't require as much as casters, but it was every fight Add some personal skill tests like wow and you could end up with a very fun game.

I don't agree with this point at all; in WoW, you have the exact same thing. Every caster DPS keeps debuffs up (as do tanks, hunters, cat druids, etc), work add management (polymorph, shackle, etc), and work with teammates for cooldown maximization (popping Bloodlust and leatherworking drums as rogues use Adrenaline Rush, etc).

DsComputer wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Having someone tell me that my gear isn't good enough on my NIN (when I had average gear; not many +1s, but the rest was of appropriate level) is rude.



Sometimes the truth hurts. That doesn't mean it's rude, though. For a job that is relied on to prevent widespread rape and pillage of the group, gear can make as much of a difference, if not more, as skill. The difference between 3% haste and 20%+ on gear can be significantly beneficial in some fights. But, you already know this.

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. Just saying that's more rude than telling a guild-mate that they're in the fire.
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#32 Feb 02 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
As far as I can remember for XI, every grouped fight required teamwork, and a lot of it if you wanted to do well. Add management, keeping debuffs on the mob and working with teammates to maximize the effect of your CD. I will say melee class in XI didn't require as much as casters, but it was every fight Add some personal skill tests like wow and you could end up with a very fun game.

I don't agree with this point at all; in WoW, you have the exact same thing. Every caster DPS keeps debuffs up (as do tanks, hunters, cat druids, etc), work add management (polymorph, shackle, etc), and work with teammates for cooldown maximization (popping Bloodlust and leatherworking drums as rogues use Adrenaline Rush, etc).


Maybe my guild just sucks than lol, we rarely do any of that stuff (yet still are progressing in ICC). If my LS rarely did those things we probably wouldn't have even beaten kirin.

Being a Rogue I don't have a lot of buffs/debuffs, but I still don't see any mage shouting their debuffs, working on a dispel order, setting up a stun order. I just don't see those things in this game because it has become more of a DPS race. I'm not saying that these things aren't present in this game, but the players aren't as motivated to do these things because there are other ways you can win, like beating the snot out of it.

*edit*
people did this in XI, hence this post about zerging, but it seems almost everyone just tries to zerg it in wow.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 5:20pm by burtonsnow
#33 Feb 02 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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burtonsnow wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
As far as I can remember for XI, every grouped fight required teamwork, and a lot of it if you wanted to do well. Add management, keeping debuffs on the mob and working with teammates to maximize the effect of your CD. I will say melee class in XI didn't require as much as casters, but it was every fight Add some personal skill tests like wow and you could end up with a very fun game.

I don't agree with this point at all; in WoW, you have the exact same thing. Every caster DPS keeps debuffs up (as do tanks, hunters, cat druids, etc), work add management (polymorph, shackle, etc), and work with teammates for cooldown maximization (popping Bloodlust and leatherworking drums as rogues use Adrenaline Rush, etc).


Maybe my guild just sucks than lol, we rarely do any of that stuff (yet still are progressing in ICC). If my LS rarely did those things we probably wouldn't have even beaten kirin.

Being a Rogue I don't have a lot of buffs/debuffs, but I still don't see any mage shouting their debuffs, working on a dispel order, setting up a stun order. I just don't see those things in this game because it has become more of a DPS race. I'm not saying that these things aren't present in this game, but the players aren't as motivated to do these things because there are other ways you can win, like beating the snot out of it.

*edit*
people did this in XI, hence this post about zerging, but it seems almost everyone just tries to zerg it in wow.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 5:20pm by burtonsnow

Yeah, my old guild would be done with raids within a week—maybe a week and a half—of release. You may not realize that people are putting up debuffs, but that's because you're a rogue and you're concentrating on your rotation, keeping your poisons up, etc.

Turn on your target debuffs next time you're in a boss fight; you're going to see Misery, Scorch, Faerie Fire, Sunders, etc on the boss at all times (or you should if your guild isn't a bunch of scrubs Smiley: tongue).

Your guild also may have a healer channel set up in-game to do dispel/healing assignments, as I doubt you'd be progressing very quickly without it.
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#34 Feb 02 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Yeah, my old guild would be done with raids within a week—maybe a week and a half—of release. You may not realize that people are putting up debuffs, but that's because you're a rogue and you're concentrating on your rotation, keeping your poisons up, etc.

Turn on your target debuffs next time you're in a boss fight; you're going to see Misery, Scorch, Faerie Fire, Sunders, etc on the boss at all times (or you should if your guild isn't a bunch of scrubs Smiley: tongue).

Your guild also may have a healer channel set up in-game to do dispel/healing assignments, as I doubt you'd be progressing very quickly without it.


We have no separate channels, we have no separate voice chats, every strat we have is mentioned before fight in vent. I asked would you like to set up a stun order for deathwhisper, no just kick when your CD is up they said. We are on the second hall of ICC so far, which isn't that far, maybe the teamwork is our next step to get further, maybe we just need higher dps. At the very least because I rarely see these things being talked about I see it as less emphasis on teamwork and more emphasis on you individually doing the moves that give the most damage.
#35 Feb 02 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Being a Rogue I don't have a lot of buffs/debuffs, but I still don't see any mage shouting their debuffs, working on a dispel order, setting up a stun order. I just don't see those things in this game because it has become more of a DPS race. I'm not saying that these things aren't present in this game, but the players aren't as motivated to do these things because there are other ways you can win, like beating the snot out of it.


Rogue is probably the most care-free class in WoW. There really isn't much you can do aside from misdirecting the tank, or Blinding a loose add(provided they aren't immune), so I can see where you'd get the impression most people don't have much to handle.

As for shouting debuffs, its not necessary in WoW, simply because you can actually see what debuffs your target has. If it wasn't for this, you'd probably see some sort of communication for that. Stun orders aren't necessary, simply because I have yet to see a raid boss who wasn't immune, outside of one boss in AQ40. For interrupts, FFXI needed those orders, because the only interrupt/stun spell(to my knowledge), aside from a few JAs, was Stun. Almost every class in WoW has a viable interrupt on a reasonably short cooldown, so just using it when it's up is fine, for the most part.
#36 Feb 03 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Default
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boss fights should be more like CoP fights, those were challenging and fun.
zerging is a strategy. Is marathon a WoW term?
<no thanks>
I think there should be no way of predicting what hnms do when you fight them
in ffxi they are predictable. maybe add some story line like it changes your story line affects your fame or something too. give it a twist a different incentive.
Long fights that take skill and focus are where its at.
But small fast fights for lesser reward should be available to cater to those with less time.
maybe give them random negative effects on the alliance engaging them like salvage.
you never know what it could be or when it would kick in, like no sub jobs for example. It would be ridiculously hard for a while but it would spice things up.
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#37 Feb 03 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
Rogue is probably the most care-free class in WoW. There really isn't much you can do aside from misdirecting the tank, or Blinding a loose add(provided they aren't immune), so I can see where you'd get the impression most people don't have much to handle.


Ok, let me lay everything out for you. Lets start out with my original statement:

Quote:
I think one of my biggest problems about WoW is it doesn't really seem like a team effort when downing a boss.


I didn't say WoW doesn't require teamwork...it just doesn't seem like it. Maybe its because i'm a rogue, maybe its because i'm use to seeing my screen flooded with party shouts from XI, maybe its because on CoP fights we were in vent and constantly talking about what each of us were doing the whole duration of the fights. At the very least I will rephrase my opinion.


In XI the feeling of teamwork is greater than that of WoW, for said reasons above.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 12:25pm by burtonsnow
#38 Feb 03 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
Jubs wrote:
Rogue is probably the most care-free class in WoW. There really isn't much you can do aside from misdirecting the tank, or Blinding a loose add(provided they aren't immune), so I can see where you'd get the impression most people don't have much to handle.


Ok, let me lay everything out for you. Lets start out with my original statement:

Quote:
I think one of my biggest problems about WoW is it doesn't really seem like a team effort when downing a boss.


I didn't say WoW doesn't require teamwork...it just doesn't seem like it. Maybe its because i'm a rogue, maybe its because i'm use to seeing my screen flooded with party shouts from XI, maybe its because on CoP fights we were in vent and constantly talking about what each of us were doing the whole duration of the fights. At the very least I will rephrase my opinion.


In XI the feeling of teamwork is greater than that of WoW, for said reasons above.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 12:25pm by burtonsnow

I'd try playing as a priest, mage, lock, or tank if I were you. Druid as well, since they have battle rez.
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#39 Feb 03 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I didn't say WoW doesn't require teamwork...it just doesn't seem like it. Maybe its because i'm a rogue, maybe its because i'm use to seeing my screen flooded with party shouts from XI, maybe its because on CoP fights we were in vent and constantly talking about what each of us were doing the whole duration of the fights. At the very least I will rephrase my opinion.


In XI the feeling of teamwork is greater than that of WoW, for said reasons above.


I understand what you're saying. I think the main reasons those shouts were necessary, such as saying you're casting a certain debuff, is because you couldn't actually see the debuff on the boss. WoW has a lot more information on what the boss/players currently have in terms of buffs/debuffs.

If I wanted to time when to use Rapid Fire/trinkets on my hunter with Bloodlust, while the boss had a certain debuff increasing damage, I wouldn't have to look for a shout. I can just see the buffs/debuffs go up, and that's when I'd go nuts.

I think FFXIV would benefit from being able to see your target's debuffs.
#40 Feb 03 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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you can see the debuffs on a boss in FFXI /p chat macros is communication, its teamwork.
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#41 Feb 03 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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goblinpimp wrote:
you can see the debuffs on a boss in FFXI /p chat macros is communication, its teamwork.


this is exactly what i'm trying to get at....regardless of if you can see it or not, wouldn't you rather have a party member keeping you notified?? Thats what I call teamwork. Try sifting through sometimes 20 debuffs on a boss, its not easy, especially when split second decisions can make or break a fight.
#42 Feb 03 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh?
Communication isn't teamwork.
It's just a vocalization you may or may not need to use in the course of working together.

If there were two DPS riding the right side of hateline, one constantly squawked every time he used his 5 minute ability, and the other proceeded in stony silence. Would you say the second one isn't being a teamplayer?

Last I checked (admittedly years ago) the XI community frowned on those sorts of /p macros, because they were redundant and obvious to the point it wasn't communicating anything of value. Doesn't the same go for debuffs, when the interface, role expectation, or situation makes them similarly apparent?




Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 9:38pm by Zemzelette
#43 Feb 04 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:
I don't know that Zerg is preventable unless you focus on halting certain tactics. Zerg became prevalent as the game got older due to the average quality of gear per person going up, and the introduction of new and more powerful pieces. You could go the AV route and actively fight Zerg, but doing that on a wide scale may make too many boss fights unfeasibly difficult.


Zerging is really only possible if you give players the option to become far too strong compared to the expected level.

There is a reason zergs are done by stacking up to 80% haste and 200+ attack on your melee.

If you were to cap bonuses at reasonable levels, zergs would be impossible.
#44 Feb 04 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
Eh?
Communication isn't teamwork.
It's just a vocalization you may or may not need to use in the course of working together.


I beg to differ. Communication is the foundation of good teamwork. Out on a soccer field the players are anything but silent. Communicating where the opposing players are, where they are, and a whole slew of other suggestions. How about basketball, I usually see the teams communicating out on the floor, not sitting there in stony silence. Take two teams for CoD MW2 of equal skill. On team mics up and communicates where to position themselves and who will stay together etc etc. Most likely they will win 75%+ of the time.

I could literally use the example for any team game, whether it be sport, video game, or even in a work environment. We are working towards a unified goal and through communication you can more easily achieve working as one unit.
#45 Feb 04 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Let's keep ourselves grounded in MMOs.
I never liked metaphors, because they rarely encompass all the nuance of a situation.
Oftentimes isolating one particular aspect of a thing and turning it into a soundbite.

This is an interface issue.
The game is the medium in which we interact, it can select what to tell us directly and what to leave up to us to organize amongst ourselves. There's alot of times the interface specifically holds back organizing us so we can organize ourselves and activate the social component of the the game. This is why Endgame loot is not something distributed to participants along a pre-defined system the game determines. So we're free to arrange Loot councils, or DKP, or whatever we want.

The more the interface intrudes, the less we socialize.

When we enter something like a boss fight. We walk in already understanding what our roles are. We perform them. If we need to talk to eachother about a certain thing, we do. If we don't, we don't. You only communicate information that another person needs to know. If the interface tells them for you, then you wouldn't need to say it. It's only a case of not working well with others when you don't say things that need to said. Not having to say them in the first place doesn't somehow make you lesser.

You want a more social game.
You like the fact the TP of your allies wasn't visible pre-windower-feature, so people had to coordinate amongst themselves to skillchain properly. That's a perfectly fine thing to want. But when skillchaining went silent in the aftermath of that windower feature before the advent of TP burn ruined that mechanic for good, people weren't any less team players, they still skillchained with one another. They were just a helluva' lot more quiet about it.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 3:29pm by Zemzelette
#46 Feb 04 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Let's keep ourselves grounded in MMOs.
I never liked metaphors, because they rarely encompass all the nuance of a situation.
Oftentimes isolating one particular aspect of a thing and turning it into a soundbite.

This is an interface issue.
The game is the medium in which we interact, it can select what to tell us directly and what to leave up to us to organize amongst ourselves. There's alot of times the interface specifically holds back organizing us so we can organize ourselves and activate the social component of the game. This is why Endgame loot is not something distributed to participants along a pre-defined system that game determines. So we're free to arrange Loot councils, or DKP, or whatever we want.

The more the interface intrudes, the less we socialize.

When we enter something like a boss fight. We walk in already understanding what our roles are. We perform them. If we need to talk to eachother about a certain thing, we do. If we don't, we don't. You only communicate information that another person needs to know. If the interface tells them for you, then you wouldn't need to say it. It's only a case of not working well with others when you don't say things that need to said. Not having to say them in the first place doesn't somehow make you lesser.

You want a more social game.
You like the fact the TP of your allies wasn't visible pre-windower-feature, so people had to coordinate amongst themselves to skillchain properly. That's a perfectly fine thing to want. But when skillchaining went silent in the aftermath of that windower feature before the advent of TP burn ruined that mechanic for good, people weren't any less team players. The result was still the same, skillchain, magic burst, wash rinse repeat.


But let me understand this still...communicating important information to someone in your party isn't teamwork?

It seems like people have tried to remove that interaction with others with all these interface addons that just clutter the screen and make it so you don't have to communicate. DBM basically tells you when each event is going to happen. If you do not have DBM and are not in vent, you have a lot less time to prepare for in battle moves. Maybe these things don't reduce the amount of teamwork, but because I am not communicating these things clearly it SEEMS like the teamwork is not as present.

At the root of all this my point still stands and you have verified it...communication is the basis of team work, whether it be from a UI, typed, or spoke in vent:

Quote:
It's only a case of not working well with others when you don't say things that need to said.


Edited, Feb 4th 2010 3:42pm by burtonsnow

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 3:53pm by burtonsnow
#47 Feb 04 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But let me understand this still...communicating important information to someone in your party isn't teamwork?


If the important information is available on the interface? (like debuffs) No, it's not.
If it isn't? (like your guild's personal strategy) Yes, it is.

You've moved your argument into much more general territory than when you originally started.
Nobody in their right mind is going to argue against communication's benefit to teamwork.

But I am going to argue against the game acting as a communicator in lieu of our personal interaction
somehow reduces our working together for a common goal. For what it's worth, I don't particularly like it, either. I like being social. I don't like things like Deadly Boss Mods. I didn't even like the TP windower feature. But I don't think people are less team players for using them. Just less social.

I think that it's perfectly understandable if the teamwork feels lesser, so long as we both recognize that it actually isn't (while we both sit in the corner and grouse about the loss of people interacting with eachother.)

/edit: sorry, edited for clarity. :p



Edited, Feb 4th 2010 4:23pm by Zemzelette
#48 Feb 04 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
If the important information is available on the interface? (like debuffs) No.
If it isn't? (like your guild's personal strategy) Yes.

You've moved your argument into much more general territory than when you originally started.
Nobody is going to argue against communication's benefit to teamwork.
But the game is a communicator too.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 3:56pm by Zemzelette


My original statement is that XI feels like teamwork is more present because of its inherent need to verbally communicate due to a less modified interface. I still stand by that. at points i've conceded that my opinion was not valid, there are always things to be learned.
#49 Feb 04 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Communicating via typing will all come down to how quickly the fights are paced. If you're using a skill every second or so it's likely the UI will need to give players more information than was available in FFXI simply because there isn't enough time to communicate between abilities.

This is why I'm a big proponent of voice chat. You can communicate without interrupting your abilities in a high paced game. Who knows what the fights will be like in 14 but I'd like to have more abilities than what I had when I played 11 (certainly not all classes had that problem).

#50 Feb 04 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI got it right with chat logs, its much faster to hit F and scroll up to see something if youve missed it and also to gauge performance after a battle or particular mob as opposed to voice programs.
I would rather look for a /p stun message than listen for one amidst other noise, thats just my preference.
FFXI is also geared towards teamwork in regards to hnms mobs have weaknesses to certain elements even the base of skillchaining is related to elemental weaknesses
weapon skills with modifiers , mobs weaker to certain weapon dmg types etc.
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

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