Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

The Perfect Raid?Follow

#1 Feb 02 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Default
15 posts
Ok, I've never raided in FF XI so I will not comment on that but I did however raid in other games such as EQ2/WoW. Raiding can be fun but very time consuming and depending on who you raid with it can also be quite frustrating. I gave up raiding a while ago due time restraints and that I got tired of the game dictating when I had to play and not.

Now, I really like group-based content and smaller raids (as the 10-mans in WoW) as they are easier to manage and you can go on the fly, no real need to set a date as long as there enough of you.

I would like to see more challenging and focus on group-content in FF XIV and I'm also hoping that a raid will be quite small, say 2 groups of 6 constitutes a raid? I don't think there's any need to have larger raids then that and that it can be difficult enough with 12 players.

What make raids hard is usually having to deal with people being forced to focus on other things then the boss say a healer not being able to heal atm. or someone dieing. You can't really have to much of that in a small group which makes some sort of raid more or less essential for an MMO.

What's your opinion on the "perfect raid" and how would you like to see it work?





Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 5:35am by WhiteWabbit
#2 Feb 02 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
*
181 posts
My idea of a perfect raid is Dynamis Xarcabard with 64, yes 64! people clearing most of the zone or the whole zone (excluding all of the animated weapons but it can be done) and dropping the Dynamis Lord along the way. The normal Dynamis in Final Fantasy XI lasted over 4 hours, i forgot the maximum time you can stay in with all of the time extensions. I rolled this way but not always with the maximum number of people that can enter, at the earlier days there was way larger Dynamis linkshells but years later people started trying to zombie it with 20 people -lol.
-----------
I don't think farming for pop items to pop the mega bosses in Sky and Sea for hours on end would be considered a raid because it was done in the open world and not in a dungeon.
-----------
Then there was the 30min - 2hr or less in Final Fantasy XI: Limbus(18 max people 30min-1hr+) and Einherjar(36? I forgot the max amount of people 30min). Only 2, yeah there wasn't very much raiding opportunity for those that didn't really have any play time.
-----------
And finally there was Salvage that most groups have done with 6 people but the downside to this was that it lasted for around 3 hours.

As you can see from the raids in 'XI there wasn't really any content for those that didn't have much time but in Final Fantasy XIV i don't think it will be extreme like that but i still want there to be raids lasting for hours, for sure. 'XIV will be more casual friendly, if that carries into the endgame scenario is just speculation. There'll be Guildleves in 'XIV and i think that alot of instanced dungeons will be accessed through that and there'll be of every type and you'll be able to specify the difficulty and time limit if i'm not mistaken. World of Warcraft had a good thing going for it with the variety of raiding opportunity and in this case i would like to see it turn out sort of like that. Variety and an infinate amount of raids is what i'd like to see in 'XIV.





Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 9:28am by KeeperOfTheStaff
#3 Feb 02 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
3,112 posts
Honestly, for FFXI Salvage and Limbus are my two favorite 'raids' (no one calls them raids in FFXI that I know of). Both are relatively shor events (Salvage has a 100 minute cap, no extensions and Limbus usually ran for about 1.5 to 2 hours). I don't agree at all with the mass farming of Dynamis with 64.

Last week we ran Xarc with 8 people (2 of which were dual boxed) and we killed the THF, DRG, BLM, RDM, BRD, PLD and SAM NM's and then did a small pull on one of the demon groupings. We only left with NIN hands, but it was our first ever Xarc with our small group, so we felt like we cleaned up. We followed that with a 9 man Glacier where we made back the entry cost and left with 5 pieces of AF2. Large groups take forever to gather and usually cause mass confusion. I small group of talented people is really all that should be required for most events.

I think regardless of size though, the time:reward ratio has to be there. Salvage is pretty cruel with the drop rates, but some of those pieces are the best you will ever get in the game, so it is worth the effort. Dynamis I felt was rather pointless if you were just in it for the AF in a large group. I knew people that waited over a year to get a specific piece they wanted... which for most of the gear is not worth it. Hopefully XIV adds a little more balance to the rewards obtained for those types of events.
____________________________
95THF, 95DRG, 90BRD, 94BLM, 95BLU, 90COR - Retired: Nov 2011
Someday soon my friends, this ride will come to and end, and we can't just get in line again.
#4 Feb 02 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
977 posts
I don't have my system set up in raid, but I'd probably go raid 0 if I was bothered to do it.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 11:41am by Pluelf
____________________________
A drink. A drink. A drink.
#5 Feb 02 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
Grandlethal wrote:
Honestly, for FFXI Salvage and Limbus are my two favorite 'raids' (no one calls them raids in FFXI that I know of). Both are relatively shor events (Salvage has a 100 minute cap, no extensions and Limbus usually ran for about 1.5 to 2 hours). I don't agree at all with the mass farming of Dynamis with 64.

I completely agree; anything longer than Limbus was an incredible pain in the ***, and anything with more than an alliance of people was a migraine waiting to happen.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
#6 Feb 02 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
46 posts
Personally, I really liked sky to a point. The only downside was farming the pop items which either took too much luck or too much time. It would have been awesome if you were able to get pop items for the mini-bosses (Despot/Olla/etc) by purchasing them with conquest points or seals in addition to doing it the old way. In that fashion you could do an afternoon steamroll of all four gods and Kirin without having to be extremely lucky.

Had ground kings been spawnable either by quests or pop items (I'm not counting BCNMs as these aren't overworld) these would have been some great raid encounters as well. While the content was pretty fun, the camping aspect wasn't. It wouldn't have been a problem to have the 24 hour pop window assuming you also had the option to force pop the mobs.

Dynamis was actually a pretty neat thing, in my opinion. Where they broke it was the time/reward balance was broken. Had they planned out Dynamis to take half the time it does now (fewer mob packs for lower time and repetitive drudgery) but upped the drop rate so it remained the same as the old system (i.e. same number of drops per run in half the time) then it probably wouldn't seem so pointless. Another change that would be nice on dynamis is if all single currency pieces were "drop to all" so that you never walked away emptyhanded. This would have enhanced the reward curve without trivializing getting a relic.

In my mind, the perfect FFXIV raid would be linkshell leve based, where your linkshell could progress through raid style leves that would allow you to fight HNM type mobs periodically by accepting the leve. I don't want to do instanced dungeons with hours of trash: it's pointless and not very heroic. I want bosses to pop up in places I've adventured before and have the opportunity to bash its face in while other adventurers have the opportunity to watch our glorious victory or our miserable failure without having to focus primarily on pop mechanics or mob theft. That, in my mind, would make a heroic encounter. It would also be nice if on each HNM class fight everyone involved got something of value. It wouldn't have to be much: perhaps a monetary reward, boss related crafting item, or a specific faction enhancement that could eventually lead to an alternate gearing path. Nothing is worse than feeling that even though you were victorious your time was wasted.

Using the above LS leve system they could still utilize 24 hour spawn windows on HNMs but it would give additional ways for linkshells to access that content preventing monopolization and allowing everyone the opportunity to enjoy the content. It would be a win for everyone. If you get off on competitive pulling you can still do it. If you would rather wait a while until you randomly get the leve (and you'd have to do other content until that specific leve comes up) you could do that too. I think it would actually inspire a greater feeling of adventure if you never knew what would come up available to your linkshell each day rather than having certain things scheduled out in advance to becoming stale and repetitive.

Imagine how much fun this would have been in FFXI. You're chatting in LS chat and suddenly a message appears in LS chat:

Ducal Guard: Adventurers, a mighty dragon has taken up residence along the borders of Zi'Tah and we require your assistance in eliminating this threat! Please see XXX for more information.

When you go to XXX NPC they give you further information and when you zone into the Dragon's Aery a small cutscene takes place and Fafhogg spawns claimed to your group (and passive to others that might be down there). You now have 15 minutes to engage it before it despawns.

You could potentially add a huge variety of NMs and HNMs to this kind of system and just have them randomly pop up either on a time based system or some might be location based (a member walks into Norg and is greeted by a cut scene of a pirate requesting help with a horror from the deep, allowing an encounter with Charybdis).

Anyway, I think you all get the idea of what I'm thinking.
#7 Feb 02 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
**
264 posts
I do not have a particular style for the perfect "raid". I liked all of FFXI's endgame events, missions, and lone NMs and HNMs. I do however have some general guidelines for those events.

I would like a mix of short and long events, no less than 30 Mins and no more than 2 Hrs. Like other people have said, there needs to be a good ratio of time spent to reward. I am also not a fan of having to compete for a claim or for a time slot (Dynamis). I think it is sufficient to have a challanging event and a rare drop rate (not ridiculously rare drop rate, looking at you speed belt).

Also, I love group content don't get me wrong. However, large numbers of people in one group becomes tedious and chaotic. I am a fan of low-manning. Make the events scalable per group. So that people that prefer large groups can be happy, but I can still get 4 to 10 of my friends together and do an event.

The last area of concern to me is the limitations on events. Cumbersome limitations such as money, or set amounts of time you can do an event a week are annoying. I would be ok with some restriction, but just not as severe as it was in FFXI. The perfect example is Dynamis. Not that I would personally want to do something as long as dynamis everyday, but lets say low to no entrance fees (like some of the newer events) and being able to do it once every day. As I said before, I would not want to do Dynamis everyday, but if I was one of those people that slept, ate, and breathed Dynamis, then I would like the option to do what I love more often.
____________________________
I also want double eyepatches, to increase my pirate bravado.
#8 Feb 02 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
To put it as short as possible, my idea of the perfect raid would be an area where teamwork is an absolute must, the difficulty is challenging to very challenging, there would be both hack and slash areas and puzzle areas, there would be different types of mobs and one to two very challenging bosses, EVERY job can be useful, and has item/equipment drops for EVERY class. Nice scenery/graphics and music are optional but would be the icing on the cake.

____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#9 Feb 03 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
*
108 posts
I think the whole idea of dyna is awesome design story etc but the drop rates should be higher and time shortened.
Perfect "Raid" (why are we calling it this ? >.> <.< did I jump into the WoW forum by <mistake>?) I think can never exist, too much conflict as far as how long it should be but if you ask me,
Linkshell based events coordinated through npcs small groups two pt alliance max limbus-esque and either make it ridiculously hard to plow through the battlefield with if not 100% higher drop rate drops OR easy burn through of a zone with mediocre drop rates but some incentive to keep running ot other than just wanting a piece of gear.
I think the goal should be to refrain from this being another gear rat race like ffxi.
But I think events should be open to what is commonly referred to as a casual player.. I do nto believe in casual gaming, there are no casual gamers only gamers with not enough time to devote with there current schedule or hardcore gamers in denial.
____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#10 Feb 03 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
*
134 posts
WhiteWabbit wrote:
Ok, I've never raided in FF XI so I will not comment on that but I did however raid in other games such as EQ2/WoW.


I'm not sure when you played EQ2, but they have two x2 zones (12 people) that are often pugged now. In the latest expansion (The Shadow Odysee) most of the group instances are more raid-like. Bosses have scripts, most trash mobs actually do things besides stand there and die... like aoe the group, stun, debuff, a hard hit, power drain, memwipe, etc. Sounds kind of like what you describe you like.

I'm a fan of 6 people per group and 24 people per raid. Any content between 6 and 24 people is cool to. I prefer contested mobs deep in the bowels of a shared dungeon that have difficult scripts and require eveyone in the raid to play hard. Things like tank swaps (I play a tank), making dps classes pay attention and do things instead of standing behind a mob and face-rolling, and requiring classes to coordinate abilities. Basically encounters that make you think about what abilities you are using rather than just popping hotbar icons whenever the refresh is up.
#11 Feb 03 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
46 posts
I would be supremely happy if they had more "Divine Might" type encounters with the same kind of difficulty, epic feel, and awesome (guaranteed) reward afterwards. For anyone that has done that encounter in a non-cheese fashion (i.e. not 18 BLMs and SMNs simultaneously nuking) it is an awesome experience. That said, if it had a 5% drop rate on a single earring nobody in their right mind would do it.

Events like that where you can get a single awesome item guaranteed but would get a lesser (but still somewhat valuable) reward for redoing it would be awesome.
#12 Feb 04 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
**
879 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Grandlethal wrote:
Honestly, for FFXI Salvage and Limbus are my two favorite 'raids' (no one calls them raids in FFXI that I know of). Both are relatively shor events (Salvage has a 100 minute cap, no extensions and Limbus usually ran for about 1.5 to 2 hours). I don't agree at all with the mass farming of Dynamis with 64.

I completely agree; anything longer than Limbus was an incredible pain in the ***, and anything with more than an alliance of people was a migraine waiting to happen.


This.

Anything that needed 2-3 sessions of 4 hours a week is a pain ( Sky, anyone? ). Many people simply dont have enough free time to have a 4 hour session anywhere.

Getting more than ~20 people coordinated is a headache waiting to happen.

~20 is a reasonable number of people for a "big" fight, and it shouldnt need to last over 2 or 3 hours.
____________________________
Khory

TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
#13 Feb 04 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
Yeah, it was **** organizing 40 people for an event like Vrtra. Sucked really bad. I prefer events that would normally require 12-24 people.
____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#14 Feb 07 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
9 posts
It will probably be based on group sized. For me its either max x 4 groups or x 2. So lets say a group is max 6 people then 24 people is perfect. With lesser content being x 2 groups for a total of 12. This makes content for hardcore players and casuals/ pugs available.

- Xxar
#15 Feb 07 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
17 posts
perfect raid: santapanta sixboxing
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 23 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (23)