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Disciples of Land and HandFollow

#1 Feb 04 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Since Discples of Land and Discples of Hand will be a "class" in FFXIV, I wonder how SE will make these two Discples progess in the game.


Think about Disciple of War and Magic, they are the "combat" classes, you will earn "EXP" or skill points in some sort to "level up", and during that progress, you will need to know what to do when you actually fight the monster (example: a tank needs to know when to voke and take hate, etc)

but on the other hand, think about Discples of Land and Hand, we do not have much info on them yet, only thing caught my eye was the Tanner could set up traps to capture animals (info on official site), but I assume we wont classified these two discples into the "combat" classes, that means.. you wouldnt expect to see a Weaver engage in the battle with a needle right?

Since these two Discples are actual classes, they will get skill points in some sort to "level up" as well, would you think they should need some special skills such as a blacksmith should know when to swing the hammer and get the better result (same thing as a combat classse know when to voke, when to do SATA, when to magic burst and stuff)?
Should there be also some type of penalties if they fail to do what it's needed while they progress? like combat classes u fight the monster to "level up" but if you die you could have death penalties, while the Disciples of Land and Hand (esp. Discples of Hand)might most likely stay in town and will not die from what they are doing to get the whatever skill points they need to progress.

what's ur opinion on this? (sorry I'm at work, let me know if what I type doesnt make sense or you dont get my point, I will fix it)
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#2 Feb 04 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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I think you're thinking a bit too hard about this. They say you can only skill up in this game, so...

War - attack enemy with sword/axe/etc.
Magic - activate magic while staff is equipped or attack enemy with staff
Hand - craft items with the crafting weapon or attack enemies with your smithing hammer or frying pan.
Land - gather items through mining/harvesting/etc or attack enemies with the pickaxe/sickle/etc.

Of course there will probably be other additions to get additional skill up points for your weapon of choice but that's basically how you'll be "leveling up" the 4 disciples in a nutshell.
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#3 Feb 04 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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I think the way they are planning it is to have these classes able to defend themselves at the most. What I can see happening is, you are either Melee or Magic user and see a node. You then simply change the weapon in your hand witha tool or a given trait and POOF! You are a gatherer, and of course vise versa. I can only see the 'basic' fighting skills being auto attack with the said tool and the defence of what you are wearing at the time.

What I want to know is, if you change your main hand weapon/tool again if you get agro, would that be allowed whilst in combat?
#4 Feb 04 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
I think you're thinking a bit too hard about this. They say you can only skill up in this game, so...

War - attack enemy with sword/axe/etc.
Magic - activate magic while staff is equipped or attack enemy with staff
Hand - craft items with the crafting weapon or attack enemies with your smithing hammer or frying pan.
Land - gather items through mining/harvesting/etc or attack enemies with the pickaxe/sickle/etc.

Of course there will probably be other additions to get additional skill up points for your weapon of choice but that's basically how you'll be "leveling up" the 4 disciples in a nutshell.



For War and Magic, you would require some skills to get the best result, but for Hand and Land, how would you determine?
if the Hand and Land are like FFXI (most likely not) you sit there and just throw in all the materials needed and BOOOOM! either u make or break, and even in FFXIV u wont lose ur materials when u fail. but then in the process, u dont require any special skills.

if it will be done in the way u mentioned (which could be possible) i really wonder how much damage u will do with a needle or frying pan


akelah wrote:
What I want to know is, if you change your main hand weapon/tool again if you get agro, would that be allowed whilst in combat?


SE mentioned u wont be able to switch classes during battle, means u cant switch classes during battle, was that your question?
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#5 Feb 04 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Default
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akelah wrote:
What I want to know is, if you change your main hand weapon/tool again if you get agro, would that be allowed whilst in combat?


Changing weapons while in combat is not going to be allowed.

Personally I think crafting and gathering will not contain any combat though.

In terms of trapping, just think about how WoW has all the lvl 1 critters that run around. very simple to gather leathers now.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 1:10pm by burtonsnow
#6 Feb 04 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
I don't expect to see too many disciples of the land/hand heading out in the world armed only with their smithing hammer/sewing needle/frying pan. I would expect that these would be components of their character that people progress along side the more combat oriented disciplines. In the example SE provides on the official site for the day in the life of an adventurer, you might be a Disciple of War, go out into the field with your armor and weapon equipped and if you come across something you want to gather, you'd switch to your gathering gear, grab it, and then switch back. If you need to kill something that's between you and the resource you want to gather, you'd fight it in your combat gear and then switch "weapons" to gather.

I think the occurrence of people leveling ONLY a Disciple of the Land/Hand will be extremely rare. In FFXI, you didn't have people showing up to Dynamis expecting to fight in their smithing apron and specs.
#7 Feb 04 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I don't see "Combat Weaver" as a possibility, which has been alluded to.

I'm guessing these skills are non-combat, because it would suck to have to level a trade skill in an identical fashion as you level a job.

For example: "Hold on, I have to skin these mobs, we can get back to exp in a minute."

"I'm levelling tailor, let me have all the cloth drops!"

These scenarios would suck for the party as well as the tradesman in the group. That's not to say that it's impossible for a game to merge crafting and levelling...I just think it would be a really bad idea.

In the end, I think the most cross-over we can reasonably expect from trades and legitamite/combat jobs would be cross assignable abilities that would function sort of like sub-jobs did previously.

So instead of a DRK/WAR or whatever you might see a...

Gladiator
/Shield
/Cloth+
or however they decide to do it.


But as I imagine it, that's about as far as the intersection would go.
#8 Feb 04 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Gasgiant wrote:
Yeah, I don't see "Combat Weaver" as a possibility, which has been alluded to.



They could weave a straight jacket? "Hold him down Marauders and Pugilists, I need to apply Straight Jacket of Gridania."
#9 Feb 04 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Land - gather items through mining/harvesting/etc or attack enemies with the pickaxe/sickle/etc.

How could you forget the almighty fishing pole?
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#10 Feb 04 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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I seriously doubt disciples of land and hand will actually be used in combat. SE said they will be needed in groups but said nothing about combat. I suspect it's going to be in a more passive way. Your armor needs to be repaired, switch to blacksmith/weaver/leatherworker/whatever to repair what needs to be repaired in the group. There might be guildleves that need you to gather some sort of resource so you switch to your harvester/lumberjack/whatever to get the job done. It's really unrealistic to expect a cook to go wacking orcs and goblins in a group...unless you happen to be a hobbit named samwise.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 11:13am by Yogtheterrible
#11 Feb 04 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I seriously doubt disciples of land and hand will actually be used in combat. SE said they will be needed in groups but said nothing about combat.


Pretty sure they mentioned in an interview that the gatherers will have the basic melee capabilities. I really cant see them having more than an auto attack. I must admit the thought of hitting something with a frying pan is some what humorous!
#12 Feb 04 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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akelah wrote:
Quote:
I seriously doubt disciples of land and hand will actually be used in combat. SE said they will be needed in groups but said nothing about combat.


Pretty sure they mentioned in an interview that the gatherers will have the basic melee capabilities. I really cant see them having more than an auto attack. I must admit the thought of hitting something with a frying pan is some what humorous!



I could see it now, a Lalafel spinning like a top flinging hot cooking oil everywhere.
#13 Feb 04 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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We have to think this: why are the disciples of hand and land actual classes and what benefits/disadvantages does this hold.

If your out mining and there's monsters around the mining points there has to be some type of abilities/weapons/magics that you can use to either sneak past the monsters or dispatch them to access the mining point. If your in a dungeon killing monsters with a group of people you won't be able to change your class to a blacksmith to fix everyone's weapons but if the blacksmith was just a skill (like in ffxi) then you could do that.
#14 Feb 04 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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KeeperOfTheStaff wrote:
If your in a dungeon killing monsters with a group of people you won't be able to change your class to a blacksmith to fix everyone's weapons but if the blacksmith was just a skill (like in ffxi) then you could do that.
Except that, as a stated part of the armoury system, you will be able to change to blacksmith in the dungeon and repair people's stuff.
#15 Feb 04 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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akelah wrote:
Quote:
I seriously doubt disciples of land and hand will actually be used in combat. SE said they will be needed in groups but said nothing about combat.


Pretty sure they mentioned in an interview that the gatherers will have the basic melee capabilities. I really cant see them having more than an auto attack. I must admit the thought of hitting something with a frying pan is some what humorous!


Which was pretty much what I was getting at when talking about fighting with a frying pan and pickaxe. Oh yeah, can't forget to bring the almighty Lu Shang's.

Ya know what, if a ball can be a weapon in a FF game, why not a giant fish attached to the end of a fishing rod string? Flail it around and do some heavy duty damage.
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#16 Feb 04 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
KeeperOfTheStaff wrote:
We have to think this: why are the disciples of hand and land actual classes and what benefits/disadvantages does this hold.

If your out mining and there's monsters around the mining points there has to be some type of abilities/weapons/magics that you can use to either sneak past the monsters or dispatch them to access the mining point. If your in a dungeon killing monsters with a group of people you won't be able to change your class to a blacksmith to fix everyone's weapons but if the blacksmith was just a skill (like in ffxi) then you could do that.


You absolutely could change to your disciple of the hand in the middle of a dungeon/instance to repair gear as long as you don't need external resources (ie. anvil/forge) to do it. We're not talking about a mog house system of changing "jobs", we're talking about changing weapons/gear to enable your various disciplines, and the only restriction on swapping gear that we've seen is that you won't be able to swap weapons in combat. You're not in combat 100% of the time, even in a dungeon.
#17 Feb 04 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally think crafting and gathering will not have to fight either. It's as simple as the higher skills in weapons or craft, the higher your 'level' will be, thus allowing you to move into higher zones for materials or mobs.
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#18 Feb 04 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I personally think crafting and gathering will not have to fight either. It's as simple as the higher skills in weapons or craft, the higher your 'level' will be, thus allowing you to move into higher zones for materials or mobs.


The level of your craft or gathering skill is not determined by your combat class, you're forgetting that in order to be able to harvest those higher level drops, you need to be on your DotL class. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you need to max out to a certain level before you can effectively gather in a higher level and more dangerous area.

They already confirmed that DotL and DotH will have basic melee capabilities, but they also said that no one deciple is limited to simply one archtype. They say a DotS can use DoM spells (providing you have adequetely skilled them, almost like leveling a sub job). Hybrids. I'm sure the same will apply for the DotL and DotH too. This might be were the limits of the Land and Hand self defences' are given a boost, to at least give you a fighting chance should you have gotten into a bit of a pickle.

I don't think they will have any true place in a party - unless they are repairing armour/weapons or preparing a snack. But with the quick way we get to switch between jobs thats not going to be a problem.

Warrior: Yo dude! Come like, kill stuff!
Woodsman: Sure, just let me get this tree down and I'll be right there.
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Woodsman is now a mage!
#19 Feb 04 2010 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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hmmmmmmmmmm I probably miss the part were it said Land and Hand have basic combat skills...
the weaver's 1 needle vs cactuas 1000needles will be epic
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#20 Feb 05 2010 at 5:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
hmmmmmmmmmm I probably miss the part were it said Land and Hand have basic combat skills...
the weaver's 1 needle vs cactuas 1000needles will be epic


http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=19635

There ya go :D

Quote:
As for battle, it appears that crafting classes may have some abilities that could be utilized for light battles, but have little strength when compared to a battle-oriented job.


This part.
#21 Feb 05 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I think a lot of people are expecting FFXIV to be far more revolutionary than it is. From what has been revealed so far the core mechanics aren't very different from FFXI. That isn't to say that they aren't better, but they aren't something entirely new. You're going to gain levels still, but cosmetically that has been shifted over to the weapon instead of a "job." You can change jobs jsut like you can in FFXI, but it seems like it will be a little more convenient.

It's teh design team's job to come up with a fresh twist and the marketing team's job to push that fresh spin, so all the information released should be read with that understanding. I remember when the Lotro team first announced that there would be no HP in Lotro, but instead morale. People went crazy saying how completely different it would be from every other MMORPG because of this. Turns out morale is exactly the same as hp; it was just renamed for flavor reasons.
#22 Feb 05 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I have high hopes for the combat system as well as the crafting system. Surely they wont use moon phases and stuff like that to effect the outcome of certain things. Leave that in XI, change the system in XIV.
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#23 Feb 05 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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i think disciples of land / hand function in combat parties will be for maintenance and repair of weapons/armor/clothing etc... I'm also guessing that there might even be a lot of guildleves that will have disciples of land/hand needing to go to such and such dangerous places where they will need combat classes to escort them there.

I dont think discp o land/hand classes will be doing "physical fighting" as a necessary function of their class. I think they will be a form of support classes.
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#24 Mar 10 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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sweet, after todays leaked famitsu "speculation".
Looks like Disciples of Land and Hand will be used in party situations.
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