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Be smart to release in aug-sept?Follow

#1 Feb 04 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Woudlnt anyone else agree to release this game around this date? I mean it would only make it better for SE because then they would get even more ppl to buy it for xmas gifts. Probably doubling there sales.
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#2 Feb 04 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1265263816300667459&num=10&page=1

check it out....august release date is being discussed there.
#3 Feb 04 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
I doubt we'll see it that soon. Smart developers don't release games with ideal selling times in mind...they release games when they're ready to be released. August is only 6 months away and according to the latest interview with Tanaka, the beta hasn't even started yet. I would think October/November would be a more realistic time frame.
#4 Feb 04 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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I doubt we'll see it that soon. Smart developers don't release games with ideal selling times in mind...they release games when they're ready to be released. August is only 6 months away and according to the latest interview with Tanaka, the beta hasn't even started yet. I would think October/November would be a more realistic time frame.


Have to agree with you there, august is a very optimistic date. Who knows, they might surprise us still.
#5 Feb 04 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I doubt we'll see it that soon. Smart developers don't release games with ideal selling times in mind...they release games when they're ready to be released. August is only 6 months away and according to the latest interview with Tanaka, the beta hasn't even started yet. I would think October/November would be a more realistic time frame.


He never really mentioned whether or not the beta started actually. Personally I think that closed betas have started for some people.
#6 Feb 04 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
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Whatever they do it should be released either several months before or after the WoW expansion. Before if they're confident the game is solid and keeps people's interest to the point that they wont want to leave this way there's no conflicting feelings about which one to join...they are several months away from a game they want to play so they might as well play FFXIV and get hooked. After if they aren't so convinced about the game and want to glean the people who are bored with the new wow expansion. That, of course will only work if Blizz doesn't make a grand slam with the expansion and really get people super-interested again.
#7 Feb 04 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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He never really mentioned whether or not the beta started actually. Personally I think that closed betas have started for some people.


Maybe for friends and family of the devs?
#8 Feb 04 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I doubt we'll see it that soon. Smart developers don't release games with ideal selling times in mind...they release games when they're ready to be released. August is only 6 months away and according to the latest interview with Tanaka, the beta hasn't even started yet. I would think October/November would be a more realistic time frame.


I beg to differ.

Look across the past decade, and see how many highly hyped, big budget games come out between late october and mid december. And the relative dry season of such games in febuary-april-ish.

Developers don't do things with selling times in mind, but Publishers sure as **** do.

I do agree though, at August seems very optimistic for a finished product from what information we have right now.
#9 Feb 04 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Really for a game like this anytime of year is smart. Its a matter of the competition. What games are coming out in the same window that would lower initial subscriptions. Also what games will be getting expansions at that time of year.

Lets say WoW and Aion both get expansions in that time period. Also Star Wars starts serious beta. Not only will that be a horrible time it could cripple the start. But it would be nice to start a game where servers didnt max population crash.

I haven't really been following the mmo scene to much lately there have been some decent ps3 games so I am not sure when said stuff might happen. Just that SE is most likely to try to avoid it by a few months in either direction.
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#10 Feb 05 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Default
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aug-sep seems to be right for me, why release it in xmas with the wow exp? I think they would want word of mouth to spread about 14 by the time xmas comes and maybe have change of minds on ppl getting wow
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#11 Feb 05 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
Xeurb wrote:
Quote:
I doubt we'll see it that soon. Smart developers don't release games with ideal selling times in mind...they release games when they're ready to be released. August is only 6 months away and according to the latest interview with Tanaka, the beta hasn't even started yet. I would think October/November would be a more realistic time frame.


I beg to differ.

Look across the past decade, and see how many highly hyped, big budget games come out between late october and mid december. And the relative dry season of such games in febuary-april-ish.

Developers don't do things with selling times in mind, but Publishers sure as **** do.

I do agree though, at August seems very optimistic for a finished product from what information we have right now.


I'm not talking about publishers, and SE can't afford to let bean counters influence the release date. If they ship an unpolished product, it's going to hurt them a lot more down the line than it will to release the game even Q1 2011 if that's what it takes. Look at the **** Warhammer has gone through and how many people they lost very, very early into the game's lifespan because they had so many enormous technical issues at launch. Even the best efforts to put forward a complete, bug and server issue-free product are still likely to encounter substantial hiccups for the first month or two after launch...exacerbating the situation by rushing to meet a self-imposed deadline will not help.

In that last interview, Tanaka talks about wanting to have the game adequately completed so that they can keep the beta running once it starts and not have to take the servers down for several days while the developers go back and fix major issues or re-work major components of the game. They also want it set up so that they have enough space to take in tester feedback and adjust accordingly. That suggests very strongly to me that the beta has not only not started, but is still weeks away. If you take and add 4-6 months for the beta and another 2-4 weeks for production and shipping for a retail release, that's putting us with a retail version of the game in stores no earlier than Q4 and I'm happy to wait if it means the game is going to be done right.
#12 Feb 05 2010 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not talking about publishers, and SE can't afford to let bean counters influence the release date. If they ship an unpolished product, it's going to hurt them a lot


well, sorry but it's all SE is about lately, making money(add-ons, token) and low(er than expected) quality games(12, 13)...
#13 Feb 05 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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DarkBiBi wrote:

well, sorry but it's all SE is about lately, making money(add-ons, token) and low(er than expected) quality games(12, 13)...


I don't quite agree with most of what you wrote here. SE isn't turning a profit off the security tokens. FFXII and FFXIII were praised by the critics more or less. FFXIII recently received a 39/40 score which isn't too shabby. The only products that were way below expectations was the 3 mini expansions. SE was basically selling must have gear for cash.

Anyways, the reason why SE isn't about to release a rushed FFXIV is because all the money invested so far. It would be silly to require a ton of patches upon installing the game just to fix all the problems. There is no way that FFXIV will release any earlier than late September. FFXIV is most likely to launch between a Oct~Dec time frame. Beta hasn't started yet according to the Devs so it's only logical we're looking at a Q4 release.
#14 Feb 05 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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You have to keep in mind what Tanaka said too though, this game has been a brainchild for almost 5 years. So I'm under the impression that beta has started or is about to start soon. I would love to see an early Aug release, but anytime in 2010 is good for me, bring on FFXIV! :P
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#15 Feb 05 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Even though I really hope it does. I still think it wont even come out in 2010.
and If it does, I can easily see that its going to be very late 2010.
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#16 Feb 05 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Default
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Japanese critique don't give points based on the game. Even the Famitsu 40/40 would meant nothing. Japanese players are giving FFXIII a super crappy score everywhere.

And I totally didn't enjoy FFXIII.
#17 Feb 05 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'm not talking about publishers, and SE can't afford to let bean counters influence the release date. If they ship an unpolished product, it's going to hurt them a lot more down the line than it will to release the game even Q1 2011 if that's what it takes. Look at the **** Warhammer has gone through and how many people they lost very, very early into the game's lifespan because they had so many enormous technical issues at launch. Even the best efforts to put forward a complete, bug and server issue-free product are still likely to encounter substantial hiccups for the first month or two after launch...exacerbating the situation by rushing to meet a self-imposed deadline will not help.

In that last interview, Tanaka talks about wanting to have the game adequately completed so that they can keep the beta running once it starts and not have to take the servers down for several days while the developers go back and fix major issues or re-work major components of the game. They also want it set up so that they have enough space to take in tester feedback and adjust accordingly. That suggests very strongly to me that the beta has not only not started, but is still weeks away. If you take and add 4-6 months for the beta and another 2-4 weeks for production and shipping for a retail release, that's putting us with a retail version of the game in stores no earlier than Q4 and I'm happy to wait if it means the game is going to be done right.


Oh I agree. It would be a terrible idea to release an unfinished game just to make the 2010 release date. But the SE publishers do ultimatly make the final call on the deadline, even if the devs tell them they should have more time, and I wouldn't put it past them.

I was more thinking of the OP's statement in the opposite direction. Where, in the unlikely case that the game is finished and polished in august, should they release it then? or delay it until a more prefered season. In all honesty, I don't think it would hurt. They could stress test for another month, spend more time marketing the game etc.

There ought to be consideration about the release date in relation to WoWs Cataclysm. It shouldn't be the deciding factor, but releasing the game just before, simotaniously, or after the expansion will have effects on both games. What they are I have no clue. That and I don't know when cataclysm is coming out, so it doesn't matter to me.
#18 Feb 05 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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I think its really safe to asume a release date of Q4 2010. In the newest intervju Tanaka still keeps saying to expect the game in 2010. That would also safely put the beta start date Q2 2010 (start of April, maybee end of March)


Edited, Feb 5th 2010 3:42pm by Maldavian
#19 Feb 05 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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jpenguin wrote:
Japanese critique don't give points based on the game. Even the Famitsu 40/40 would meant nothing. Japanese players are giving FFXIII a super crappy score everywhere.

And I totally didn't enjoy FFXIII.


Are you Japanese? I'm interested in how you played FFXIII unless you A) are Japanese or B) just imported the game. The only reason why I wouldn't personally import FFXIII is because I enjoy reading the text and I can't read Japanese text. Either way, I'll wait until March when it launches here and see for myself. I'll trust IGN's word more than yours sorry.
#20 Feb 06 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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You can pretty much count on a late October release date. Why? The majority population of gamers are people in school (secondary or college). Releasing close to the beginning of a term is bad because people's minds are justifiably elsewhere and can interfere with getting hooked on the game. Waiting a couple months after the start of term would be better to let this happen.

Second, it allows it to have a large shelf presence when the Christmas shoppers are starting to get to work. Earlier than October and shelf space for that title will dwindle, while later than the end of November and purchases will already have been decided. Getting your MMO out during a holiday rush ensures a good influx of subscriptions after the initial shot from release.

You will notice that both the NA release of FFXI and WoW both did this exact thing for those reasons. Even if the product is ready to hit the streets in August (which will probably be the case beta non-withstanding) they will wait until the end of October to push it to market. The WoW expansion will hit at mid-December (I would guess the 21st), since expansions work differently in that people know about them well ahead of time for planning purposes, and nobody wants to wait in that situation to access the content. Expansions are all about now.

If I had to put a guess on release, I would say October 26 is the street date if we get a 2010 release.

In fact, since I'm in the prognosticating mood, I'll break down a timeline:

October 2009: internal alpha
January 2010: friends and family beta
Late March 2010: closed beta 1
May 2010: mechanics focus from user input
June 2010: closed beta 2
July 2010: bug fix push
August 2010: polish pass
August 2010: closed beta 3
Late September 2010: game goes GOLD
Early October 2010: open beta/stress test, marketing begins based on demonstrated interest
October 26 2010: release with update patch

7 month public closed beta until RTM.
#21 Feb 06 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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^ I'm with that person. Although it may look good on e-paper, we will just have to wait and see of course.
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#22 Feb 06 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I also disagree with the end-of-summer game release idea because of the reasons stated above, but mostly the fact that a lot of people will be going back to school/college/jobs or at least preparing to and in my experience every time the new school year started up for me while I was playing FFXI I absolutely had to quit for at least a couple months at a time to get through the first parts of the semester and mid-terms so I had a feel for my classes before I could comfortably spend time on other things. (The back to school partying is also much more fun than as the months draw on into fall and winter.) Less people will be spending time outside (for those of us who still do) and will be more likely to turn to gaming in their spare time instead of going outside to freeze their asses off. I don't care if the game has bugs when it first comes out; it didn't stop me from playing AoC, so I hope the publishers win the argument in the end haha
#23 Feb 07 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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I could totally understand the school reason for a late fall release, as it pertains to North America/ USA.

But being that this game is to release worldwide simultaneously as well (Europe/Asia). Does anyone know if other countries "school year" is on the same schedule as it is in NA?
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#24 Feb 07 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Default
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Most colleges and Universities across the globe follow the same school seasons, relatively, and the absolute majority in the USA and Europe start ranging from late August to late September, all of their vacations also falling almost simultaneously at the end of October to early November, further suggesting that it would be a perfect time to release the game. Japan also begins school at the beginning of September, I believe, seeing as August is their busiest month of summer vacation, and as biased as it may sound, I tend to believe SE mainly incorporates Japan and the US into their time considerations. I am also currently studying in South America and their universities start no more than a month after those in the US.
#25 Feb 07 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
Bluefirefly wrote:
Most colleges and Universities across the globe follow the same school seasons, relatively, and the absolute majority in the USA and Europe start ranging from late August to late September, all of their vacations also falling almost simultaneously at the end of October to early November, further suggesting that it would be a perfect time to release the game. Japan also begins school at the beginning of September, I believe, seeing as August is their busiest month of summer vacation, and as biased as it may sound, I tend to believe SE mainly incorporates Japan and the US into their time considerations. I am also currently studying in South America and their universities start no more than a month after those in the US.


A recent interview with one of the major story developers quoted her as saying that the story will make more sense to older players than younger. While there's certainly a place for consideration for the younger set (highschool students) and even young adults in school, basing assumptions and estimations around when school starts is not necessarily a good place to start from. Even the North American market is aging and there are more working adults playing video games now than there ever has been in the past.
#26 Feb 07 2010 at 3:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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That may be so, but older adults don't generate buzz like college aged fans do. The success of a MMO title is more about building a critical mass of players to keep it sustainable than anything else. You want to play the title that you heard about and that your friends are playing because it is social media. With that in mind, targeting a particularly loud audience that has a high level of influence on their peers is beneficial.

None of that is to say that they might be targeting an older audience with the storyline or whatnot, but they would be loathe to ignore the subset of their base that would be most valuable in attracting and retaining new customers.
#27 Feb 07 2010 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
LetThemEatCake wrote:
That may be so, but older adults don't generate buzz like college aged fans do. The success of a MMO title is more about building a critical mass of players to keep it sustainable than anything else. You want to play the title that you heard about and that your friends are playing because it is social media. With that in mind, targeting a particularly loud audience that has a high level of influence on their peers is beneficial.

None of that is to say that they might be targeting an older audience with the storyline or whatnot, but they would be loathe to ignore the subset of their base that would be most valuable in attracting and retaining new customers.


I don't want to seem like I'm suggesting that the highschool/college crowd are insignificant to the game's success, I just think that rationalizations around a release date aimed at college/highschool students aren't as significant as some would seem to believe.

When I played FFXI, it was commonly considered to be true that the Japanese playerbase consisted largely of adult professionals, not students. When FFXI went live in North America, the majority of players were adults. Interesting but related sidenote: there was no cultural tension between the JP and NA players at NA launch. It was actually a very friendly environment. It wasn't until shortly after Christmas (younger players getting the game as gifts) and then the PS2 launch (more younger players) that the rift started to emerge between NA and JP.

Even in WoW, my last couple of endgame guilds consisted primarily of working adults. This was to include a healthy mix of college/university/post graduate students, but by no means did they constitute the majority. Oddly enough, the most noteworthy minority were highschool students. Out of a raiding core of maybe 30 players, it was odd to see more than 2 that were highschool age. That is by no means to suggest or insinuate anything other than a population sample, nor is it representative of the playerbase as a whole, but it was interesting to note that as you start to move into the more competitive guilds (ie. top 5000 world and up), the age demographic seems to shift upwards with it.

MMO gamers are a fickle lot. They know (or think they know) what they want and what they like and don't like. In most MMOs, it takes a solid minimum of 10-20 hours of playtime to get a feel for the game. If the first couple of months of service for FFXIV are riddled with bugs, server downtime, and unrefined play, SE will lose out far more than they will gain by rushing to release at a time when the market favors the sale of more retail boxes. There are a lot of people who currently play an MMO and are looking to make a change but are reluctant to do so when a new game launches. They're content to wait a month or two and see what everyone else seems to be saying. If that initial player feedback is that SE has blown it, they're going to lose even more.

With the recent issues around CC payment for FFXI (ie. people who would like to play the game but can't because their payment method is being rejected), SE's previous track record with FFXI (both from a game mechanics and a customer service point of view), and the sheer volume of MMOs on the market now compared to the number that were around when FFXI launched, SE has enough working against them. A game five years in production can't afford to launch with a million subscriptions that dwindle to 500k within a year. Personally, I'd rather see SE put their best foot forward on release day and let players make their decisions based on what SE actually wants to offer rather than what they had time to slap together to meet a deadline based on financial motivations.
#28 Feb 07 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I don't want to seem like I'm suggesting that the highschool/college crowd are insignificant to the game's success, I just think that rationalizations around a release date aimed at college/highschool students aren't as significant as some would seem to believe.

When I played FFXI, it was commonly considered to be true that the Japanese playerbase consisted largely of adult professionals, not students. When FFXI went live in North America, the majority of players were adults. Interesting but related sidenote: there was no cultural tension between the JP and NA players at NA launch. It was actually a very friendly environment. It wasn't until shortly after Christmas (younger players getting the game as gifts) and then the PS2 launch (more younger players) that the rift started to emerge between NA and JP.

Even in WoW, my last couple of endgame guilds consisted primarily of working adults. This was to include a healthy mix of college/university/post graduate students, but by no means did they constitute the majority. Oddly enough, the most noteworthy minority were highschool students. Out of a raiding core of maybe 30 players, it was odd to see more than 2 that were highschool age. That is by no means to suggest or insinuate anything other than a population sample, nor is it representative of the playerbase as a whole, but it was interesting to note that as you start to move into the more competitive guilds (ie. top 5000 world and up), the age demographic seems to shift upwards with it.

MMO gamers are a fickle lot. They know (or think they know) what they want and what they like and don't like. In most MMOs, it takes a solid minimum of 10-20 hours of playtime to get a feel for the game. If the first couple of months of service for FFXIV are riddled with bugs, server downtime, and unrefined play, SE will lose out far more than they will gain by rushing to release at a time when the market favors the sale of more retail boxes. There are a lot of people who currently play an MMO and are looking to make a change but are reluctant to do so when a new game launches. They're content to wait a month or two and see what everyone else seems to be saying. If that initial player feedback is that SE has blown it, they're going to lose even more.

With the recent issues around CC payment for FFXI (ie. people who would like to play the game but can't because their payment method is being rejected), SE's previous track record with FFXI (both from a game mechanics and a customer service point of view), and the sheer volume of MMOs on the market now compared to the number that were around when FFXI launched, SE has enough working against them. A game five years in production can't afford to launch with a million subscriptions that dwindle to 500k within a year. Personally, I'd rather see SE put their best foot forward on release day and let players make their decisions based on what SE actually wants to offer rather than what they had time to slap together to meet a deadline based on financial motivations.


Not to be a stickler but this example is solely based on your experience whereas mine was completely different. In both FFXI and AoC the entire time I played I was surrounded mostly by people within the 18-24 age range which is considered college student/young adult frame. It's actually been proven in studies that the real cash-cows of today are the teeenagers when it comes to specific types of merchandise (I honestly don't know about MMO's specifically, which is why I'd love to find out). I'd really like to see some hard stats about this, not to further my argument in any way, because it you are right, I will be most intrigued with the idea that a videogame targeting a world-wide fanbase is going to heavily consider "adults" in their release date. I am very hard-pressed to believe that the release date wouldn't focus more around student times because it incorporates almost every single person in the world, not just at university level, but ages 24 and under (including grad school).

Adults theoretically and commonly work a 9-5 job that doesn't change with the seasons, but it is highly possible their business might. Business tends to heavily pick up at the end of the summer, a reason that would further support the Oct. release theory.

To combat the constant "I don't want to see SE just throw something together" argument, I am surprised to see that so many people have such little faith in SE after all of these years. I like to believe that they know their stuff and have had practice in a wide array of aspects to consider, and even have FFXI under their belt to assist them in creating FFXIV. The way I see it is, Tanaka would not have said "2010" if he was not confident in what he was doing. It's not like he announced 2 years ago that it would come out last year and now he's scrambling to throw together a game just so he isn't more embarrassed by a wait. I like the confidence that SE has, although as many other people have already said, we won't REALLY know until the betas kick into full gear. I am also fairly confident the exclusive beta has already started. I'm not saying it won't have bugs when it first releases, but there is really NO WAY to release the perfect MMO, and therefore it is the world's job to assist SE in uncovering these imperfections in the infancy of the game and have patience while enduring the countless hours of maintenance. Anyone who won't pay for a game because it's not perfect on the release date obviously has issues beyond that of taste and don't realize what goes into an MMO as opposed to an offline game or something more along the lines of Halo.
#29 Feb 07 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Look at the current MMO market and current trends, this is to max there player counts and testers vs Wow has a expansion in Feb / Mar ? // Eq2 has a expansion in in Feb // Aion just released will be putting out there first major GU in roughly 2 months. I honestly expect beta to start around march - april. The release about 6 - 8 months after CB1.

- Xxar

Ps Hope that made sense :)
#30 Feb 07 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
To combat the constant "I don't want to see SE just throw something together" argument, I am surprised to see that so many people have such little faith in SE after all of these years. I like to believe that they know their stuff and have had practice in a wide array of aspects to consider, and even have FFXI under their belt to assist them in creating FFXIV. The way I see it is, Tanaka would not have said "2010" if he was not confident in what he was doing. It's not like he announced 2 years ago that it would come out last year and now he's scrambling to throw together a game just so he isn't more embarrassed by a wait. I like the confidence that SE has, although as many other people have already said, we won't REALLY know until the betas kick into full gear. I am also fairly confident the exclusive beta has already started. I'm not saying it won't have bugs when it first releases, but there is really NO WAY to release the perfect MMO, and therefore it is the world's job to assist SE in uncovering these imperfections in the infancy of the game and have patience while enduring the countless hours of maintenance. Anyone who won't pay for a game because it's not perfect on the release date obviously has issues beyond that of taste and don't realize what goes into an MMO as opposed to an offline game or something more along the lines of Halo.


If FFXIV ships in December, Tanaka will have hit his goal. If it takes until December to finish polishing the game, then that's how long it should take before they release it. If the devs don't feel like the game is ready to release in Sept/October but they release it anyways to satisfy Wada, it will be a mistake. And mistakes at retail launch for MMOs cost MMO companies dearly. That's the entire point. History has shown us that if you rush the release, you stand to lose a substantial number of subscriptions.
#31 Feb 07 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
If FFXIV ships in December, Tanaka will have hit his goal. If it takes until December to finish polishing the game, then that's how long it should take before they release it. If the devs don't feel like the game is ready to release in Sept/October but they release it anyways to satisfy Wada, it will be a mistake. And mistakes at retail launch for MMOs cost MMO companies dearly. That's the entire point. History has shown us that if you rush the release, you stand to lose a substantial number of subscriptions.


I guess what I'm not really understanding and what you are not addressing for me is what the definition of "ready" and "polished" is. You seem to be continuing to suggest that this game needs to be perfect upon launch, and I'm merely saying Tanaka is clearly comfortable enough with the way things are going to give a release date, vague though it is. My point is I don't think that releasing it in October would be rushing the release because the game will never be perfect upon release. After how many years of FFXI being around there were still glitches and bugs that they needed to work on during maintenance, and although people griped a little bit, it didn't devastate the game.

Yes he will be hitting his goal of "2010" by a December release, but I think SE is giving itself a cushion (which is obviously the smart thing to do) so people don't expect it before New Year's Eve. A December release, no matter how you look at it, would not be ideal for the game by any means, if you ask me. If they expect to get their Christmas bonuses from kids paying for subs who got it as a Christmas present, it will have to be more polished by actually letting it hit a large-scale player base first. It's not a matter of solely pleasing Wada, it's a matter of realizing that every single glitch in the game isn't going to be found and eliminated in a beta test.
#32 Feb 07 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
If FFXIV ships in December, Tanaka will have hit his goal. If it takes until December to finish polishing the game, then that's how long it should take before they release it. If the devs don't feel like the game is ready to release in Sept/October but they release it anyways to satisfy Wada, it will be a mistake. And mistakes at retail launch for MMOs cost MMO companies dearly. That's the entire point. History has shown us that if you rush the release, you stand to lose a substantial number of subscriptions.


I guess what I'm not really understanding and what you are not addressing for me is what the definition of "ready" and "polished" is. You seem to be continuing to suggest that this game needs to be perfect upon launch, and I'm merely saying Tanaka is clearly comfortable enough with the way things are going to give a release date, vague though it is.


"Ready" means that the known bugs are worked out, and "polished" means that the game functions as the developers intend for it to. If it takes an extra 3 months to get it to that point after SE has digested the tester feedback and reviewed the results of the stress test, then that's what it needs. Developers don't hope for unforeseen bugs, but they're foolish to not plan for them. That means that if they release a game with known issues, the unforeseen issues that crop up at retail release are going to take that much longer to address. And in that time of addressing bugs that the devs knew about in addition to the new ones, they're losing subscriptions. It's not about perfect...it's about as good as the devs can hope to get it before releasing it.
#33 Feb 07 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Default
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572 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
If FFXIV ships in December, Tanaka will have hit his goal. If it takes until December to finish polishing the game, then that's how long it should take before they release it. If the devs don't feel like the game is ready to release in Sept/October but they release it anyways to satisfy Wada, it will be a mistake. And mistakes at retail launch for MMOs cost MMO companies dearly. That's the entire point. History has shown us that if you rush the release, you stand to lose a substantial number of subscriptions.


I guess what I'm not really understanding and what you are not addressing for me is what the definition of "ready" and "polished" is. You seem to be continuing to suggest that this game needs to be perfect upon launch, and I'm merely saying Tanaka is clearly comfortable enough with the way things are going to give a release date, vague though it is.


"Ready" means that the known bugs are worked out, and "polished" means that the game functions as the developers intend for it to. If it takes an extra 3 months to get it to that point after SE has digested the tester feedback and reviewed the results of the stress test, then that's what it needs. Developers don't hope for unforeseen bugs, but they're foolish to not plan for them. That means that if they release a game with known issues, the unforeseen issues that crop up at retail release are going to take that much longer to address. And in that time of addressing bugs that the devs knew about in addition to the new ones, they're losing subscriptions. It's not about perfect...it's about as good as the devs can hope to get it before releasing it.


What if the games still has major bugs even in December ? You think they will skipp the 2010 release and go for 2011 ?
#34 Feb 07 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
46 posts
The problem with a December release date will be the WoW expansion. I can almost assure you there will be a 21 December release for that. If they release in December one of two things will happen:

1) They release shortly before and people won't get hooked before trying the WoW expansion and putting FFXIV on the backburner not to return for 2+ months if at all. A critical mass of players would be virtually unattainable if this happens.

2) They release nearer the WoW XP release date and it forces their customers to choose. In Japan, the choice will be simpler and the customer base will probably choose FFXIV. In the entire rest of the world the choice will be WoW almost every time.

Simply put, a December release would be the kiss of death for this game. Even if it was the greatest game ever conceived, it wouldn't be able to build a critical mass of players (and really, even a 1 million player start which has been achieved by almost every A-list MMO title in the recent past, can generate that critical mass if the game is solid) and the game would likely be stillborn.

What is likely to happen is that S-E will focus development on the core gameplay aspects of the game and work on the endgame aspects on it later. It would be to their advantage to have a solid core game release with little late-game play in October and push the content out in a patch in December than to have a more comprehensive December release. This is in the same vein of coasting through August and September if they're done early to polish the game further rather than release at an non-advantageous time.

Since WoW is the genre juggernaut, they have to make sure that they don't directly compete at the onset of play in order to let their fan base build. This is best done when people are tired of the content of WoW and don't want to waste their time before the expansion pack. If the game is solid, they can count on a number of those people not immediately ditching FFXIV when the XP hits. If the roles are reversed, many of those people won't even give FFXIV a shot. Should they overshoot, they'd have to wait until 2Q 2011 for release or they would probably have a very small release outside of Japan.
#35 Feb 07 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
Maldavian wrote:
What if the games still has major bugs even in December ? You think they will skipp the 2010 release and go for 2011 ?


I think they'd be foolish not to. It's one thing to release knowing that bugs are going to materialize that they weren't aware of when the game goes to retail production. It's another thing entirely to have a list of known issues that could dramatically impact the first impressions of their initial playerbase (as well as those potential players who are waiting on the reviews of the first batch before they try it themselves).

Edited, Feb 7th 2010 3:57pm by AureliusSir
#36 Feb 07 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
LetThemEatCake wrote:
The problem with a December release date will be the WoW expansion. I can almost assure you there will be a 21 December release for that. If they release in December one of two things will happen:


Blizzard isn't going to make their players wait 10 months for the next expansion. The final encounters in the final raid instance of the current expansion have just gone live. Three months from now, people are going to start to get restless. 6 months from now they're going to be fed up if they know Cataclysm is still months away. Blizzard has said they want to ramp up the pace of expansions, and a late December Cataclysm launch would be just over two years since WotLK.
#37 Feb 07 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
LetThemEatCake wrote:
The problem with a December release date will be the WoW expansion. I can almost assure you there will be a 21 December release for that. If they release in December one of two things will happen:

1) They release shortly before and people won't get hooked before trying the WoW expansion and putting FFXIV on the backburner not to return for 2+ months if at all. A critical mass of players would be virtually unattainable if this happens.

2) They release nearer the WoW XP release date and it forces their customers to choose. In Japan, the choice will be simpler and the customer base will probably choose FFXIV. In the entire rest of the world the choice will be WoW almost every time.

Simply put, a December release would be the kiss of death for this game. Even if it was the greatest game ever conceived, it wouldn't be able to build a critical mass of players (and really, even a 1 million player start which has been achieved by almost every A-list MMO title in the recent past, can generate that critical mass if the game is solid) and the game would likely be stillborn.

What is likely to happen is that S-E will focus development on the core gameplay aspects of the game and work on the endgame aspects on it later. It would be to their advantage to have a solid core game release with little late-game play in October and push the content out in a patch in December than to have a more comprehensive December release. This is in the same vein of coasting through August and September if they're done early to polish the game further rather than release at an non-advantageous time.

Since WoW is the genre juggernaut, they have to make sure that they don't directly compete at the onset of play in order to let their fan base build. This is best done when people are tired of the content of WoW and don't want to waste their time before the expansion pack. If the game is solid, they can count on a number of those people not immediately ditching FFXIV when the XP hits. If the roles are reversed, many of those people won't even give FFXIV a shot. Should they overshoot, they'd have to wait until 2Q 2011 for release or they would probably have a very small release outside of Japan.


Very well put, I think you clarified some things I was trying to say but couldn't word properly. And if Blizzard does release the expansion earlier than December, then that would probably mean FFXIV is effed if it is released this year at all because they obviously wouldn't want to compete with it nor would as many players buy the game after purchasing WoW and/or the expansion. This is all speculation on my part, of course.
#38 Feb 07 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
46 posts
Two years per expansion is right on schedule for Blizzard. It wasn't long into TBC that Northrend was announced, and that took for bloody ever to release. The kicker here is that they are going for a complete redesign of all the old content. That is not a trivial task to do right, and I wouldn't doubt it would take a good 16 months or so from announcement to do when operating on Blizzard Standard Time. The parallel in FFXI terms would be S-E redoing all of the original and Zilart zones and filling them with all new content. It is quite an undertaking. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if they pushed it a couple months early as a blocking maneuver against this game, but I don't see it happening. Blizzard is all about marketing, and marketing in this case dictates a Christmas release.

I'm sure that they can find enough little stuff to toss to the players to keep them entertained for a year. They're going to need to do a multi-month beta after they finish things, then will give the playerbase a couple months using the new talent and skillset to tweak things pre-launch. In that scenario, they only have until July or so to have the content for release nearly finished and the first few 4.X patch pushes planned out and in mid-design phase.
#39 Feb 07 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
LetThemEatCake wrote:
Two years per expansion is right on schedule for Blizzard. It wasn't long into TBC that Northrend was announced, and that took for bloody ever to release. The kicker here is that they are going for a complete redesign of all the old content. That is not a trivial task to do right, and I wouldn't doubt it would take a good 16 months or so from announcement to do when operating on Blizzard Standard Time. The parallel in FFXI terms would be S-E redoing all of the original and Zilart zones and filling them with all new content. It is quite an undertaking. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if they pushed it a couple months early as a blocking maneuver against this game, but I don't see it happening. Blizzard is all about marketing, and marketing in this case dictates a Christmas release.

I'm sure that they can find enough little stuff to toss to the players to keep them entertained for a year. They're going to need to do a multi-month beta after they finish things, then will give the playerbase a couple months using the new talent and skillset to tweak things pre-launch. In that scenario, they only have until July or so to have the content for release nearly finished and the first few 4.X patch pushes planned out and in mid-design phase.


That flies directly in the face of what Blizzard has said. They're talking 18 months between expansions now...25 months is a bit of a gap. It's also 2 months longer than the previous longest gap between expansions (vanilla -> TBC). I expect to see patch 4.0 go live sometime this summer, with the actual expansion 2-3 months after that. 2-3 months of 4.0 and then the initial rush of enthusiasm for the actual expansion and you're looking at a 6 month window that SE would have to try and avoid if they want to catch WoW at a low of enthusiasm. Hance, they're better off just worrying about what they're doing and release FFXIV when they're happy with it.
#40 Feb 07 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
That flies directly in the face of what Blizzard has said. They're talking 18 months between expansions now...25 months is a bit of a gap. It's also 2 months longer than the previous longest gap between expansions (vanilla -> TBC). I expect to see patch 4.0 go live sometime this summer, with the actual expansion 2-3 months after that. 2-3 months of 4.0 and then the initial rush of enthusiasm for the actual expansion and you're looking at a 6 month window that SE would have to try and avoid if they want to catch WoW at a low of enthusiasm. Hance, they're better off just worrying about what they're doing and release FFXIV when they're happy with it.


It's not just about when they're happy with it, as much as in a perfect world it should be. A lot of it is about timing, even if that means releasing it long after it has been ready, since that is what you continuously lean towards. A game on this massive of a scale must take every aspect into consideration if it expects not to hit a rockier road than is necessary. As someone who expresses such concern over it failing at the start due to bugs and whatnot, I am somewhat surprised you honestly feel a release date does not factor into the success when in my opinion it can possibly impact it more than minor flaws in the game. I don't care when it comes out, to be honest, because I have plenty of other things to do to keep myself busy that don't even involve videogames, but I do want to see this game fill its potential and not be overshadowed by WoW or any other game that to me would pale in comparison.
#41 Feb 07 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
It's not just about when they're happy with it, as much as in a perfect world it should be. A lot of it is about timing, even if that means releasing it long after it has been ready, since that is what you continuously lean towards. A game on this massive of a scale must take every aspect into consideration if it expects not to hit a rockier road than is necessary. As someone who expresses such concern over it failing at the start due to bugs and whatnot, I am somewhat surprised you honestly feel a release date does not factor into the success when in my opinion it can possibly impact it more than minor flaws in the game. I don't care when it comes out, to be honest, because I have plenty of other things to do to keep myself busy that don't even involve videogames, but I do want to see this game fill its potential and not be overshadowed by WoW or any other game that to me would pale in comparison.


I never said that the release date doesn't factor into it...release date factors in to how many initial units you can hope to sell. I'm trying to express a viewpoint that balances that gain vs. the potential loss for shipping a sh*t product. You can't focus on the gain if the gain is going to result in a net loss. An extra 500k people at launch is useless if 750k leave 3 months later because the game is a rushed piece of crap. (The Warhammer devs would confirm as much).

Blizzard doesn't leave the kind of gaps people here are talking about to give FFXIV players a chance to get hooked before the next major content patch/expansion lures people back to WoW. It's a big part of why they maintain such a dominant position in the market. The best chance a rival MMO developer would have to snag a substantial number of WoW players based solely on a lull in content would be 3-6 months after the final major content patch of a given WoW expansion goes live. It's already too late for SE to meet that window of opportunity. The priority has to be releasing a strong game that is going to retain the majority of its initial subscribers (quality of initial offering) and then continue to draw a significant number of new faces within the 6-12 months that follow (good design and polish). After that it's about maintaining the game with proper diligence in addressing major issues in conjunction with new content.

This whole optimistic view of a late summer/early fall release is just that...an optimistic view based around impatience and enthusiasm, not any specifically logical or relevant argument. If SE can't get FFXIV on store shelves by mid-summer, they're not going to catch the lull in WoW everyone else here is referencing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2010 7:43pm by AureliusSir
#42 Feb 07 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
This whole optimistic view of a late summer/early fall release is just that...an optimistic view based around impatience and enthusiasm, not any specifically logical or relevant argument. If SE can't get FFXIV on store shelves by mid-summer, they're not going to catch the lull in WoW everyone else here is referencing.


Okay, while the rest of your argument makes total sense, this statement is far more illogical and irrelevant than the rest of the arguments in this thread. We're discussing opinions on when would be an optimal time to release the game and people have contributed different viewpoints that have only enhanced the conversation to cover a wide array of options and counter-options. I already personally specifically stated I am far from impatient when it comes to the release of the game, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and think "Take the next 5 years if you need it, SE!" There is nothing wrong with having enthusiasm for this game and it is enthusiasm that will encourage people to buy the game in the first place. WoW was not the only point of reference used in every single argument in this thread, either. Yes, people in this thread are counting their chickens before they have hatched, but so are you if you assume to know what SE and Blizzard are both planning for their releases.
#43 Feb 07 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
This whole optimistic view of a late summer/early fall release is just that...an optimistic view based around impatience and enthusiasm, not any specifically logical or relevant argument. If SE can't get FFXIV on store shelves by mid-summer, they're not going to catch the lull in WoW everyone else here is referencing.


Okay, while the rest of your argument makes total sense, this statement is far more illogical and irrelevant than the rest of the arguments in this thread. We're discussing opinions on when would be an optimal time to release the game and people have contributed different viewpoints that have only enhanced the conversation to cover a wide array of options and counter-options. I already personally specifically stated I am far from impatient when it comes to the release of the game, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and think "Take the next 5 years if you need it, SE!" There is nothing wrong with having enthusiasm for this game and it is enthusiasm that will encourage people to buy the game in the first place. WoW was not the only point of reference used in every single argument in this thread, either. Yes, people in this thread are counting their chickens before they have hatched, but so are you if you assume to know what SE and Blizzard are both planning for their releases.


I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. You're right, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with debate, either...until people get their knickers in a knot over it.

I know what SE has told us. I also know that plans change. I know what Blizzard has said as well as what they've done in the past. Those plans could also change. To speculate, however, DIRECTLY CONTRARY to what those developers have said and expect those arguments to carry any substantial weight is a little bit silly, no?
#44 Feb 07 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. You're right, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with debate, either...until people get their knickers in a knot over it.

I know what SE has told us. I also know that plans change. I know what Blizzard has said as well as what they've done in the past. Those plans could also change. To speculate, however, DIRECTLY CONTRARY to what those developers have said and expect those arguments to carry any substantial weight is a little bit silly, no?


It's common to get defensive while defending something, but it's definitely not in a hostile or flame-instigating way, so don't worry, my "knickers" are not "in a knot" over anything. :) And I don't think anyone in this thread is posting arguments hoping that they will have "substantial weight," it's a message board to explore ideas, and as long as the ideas aren't completely moronic, then I don't see the point in stubbornly trying to squash them. I have read some thought-provoking arguments here and people have shed light on many issues I was ignorant to before. I think the OP meant for this thread to be more 'explorative' than "This is what's actually going to happen so get over it." The arguments in favor of an October release date, which have been the most recent arguments, are not DIRECTLY CONTRARY to anything the developers at SE have said, so those arguments will continue to carry weight with me until I see a legitimate argument to the contrary, which I have yet to see. If and/or when Blizzard announces the release date of it's new expansion and it is indeed not the predicted Christmas date, or SE announces a more concrete release date that is to the contrary, then I will change my viewpoint without any negative sentiments.
#45 Feb 07 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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656 posts
I dont understand all these arguements about the release date

FFXIV is a MMORPG game, it's not a NBA 2K, or NBA Live game or whatever which release every year, it's like if you dont buy this game and wait till 6months later to buy, u might consider just waiting for the next one and borrow the current one from friends.
it's not a movie in the theater which they would like the movie release in the holidays so more ppl will consider seeing the movie in theater.

If FFXIV is good and the person likes the game, he or she will buy it no matter what, it doesnt affect their decision what time of the year the game comes out. are you gonna say "oh FXXK it! it comes out in May and I have to study my finals, I aint gonna buy this game, coz if i start in the summer, this game will not be fun, I dont like this game anymore"
The only reason might be the person who buys the game could not invest as much time in the game as they wanted.
and even so, they could still play a little over the weekend or so

IMO.. it doesnt make a huge difference. even it's not as good as I expected, if my friends play it, I'm still gonna join and spend few hours a week to play w/ friends
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#46 Feb 07 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
Mostaru wrote:
I dont understand all these arguements about the release date

FFXIV is a MMORPG game, it's not a NBA 2K, or NBA Live game or whatever which release every year, it's like if you dont buy this game and wait till 6months later to buy, u might consider just waiting for the next one and borrow the current one from friends.
it's not a movie in the theater which they would like the movie release in the holidays so more ppl will consider seeing the movie in theater.

If FFXIV is good and the person likes the game, he or she will buy it no matter what, it doesnt affect their decision what time of the year the game comes out. are you gonna say "oh FXXK it! it comes out in May and I have to study my finals, I aint gonna buy this game, coz if i start in the summer, this game will not be fun, I dont like this game anymore"
The only reason might be the person who buys the game could not invest as much time in the game as they wanted.
and even so, they could still play a little over the weekend or so

IMO.. it doesnt make a huge difference. even it's not as good as I expected, if my friends play it, I'm still gonna join and spend few hours a week to play w/ friends


Actually, it kind of is like NBA 2K, because instead of competing with itself over and over, it is still competing with the games around it, and I don't know about you, but I think it's pretty difficult for someone to play more than one MMO seriously whether they like the game or not. It may not affect your decision, but it does effect other people's decisions who don't have as much information to go off of as you do. Believe it or not, there are people who are as stupid as the quote you just posted that exist in this world, and a lot of them will probably even play FFXIV unfortunately for the rest of us.

Also, I personally cannot play at the beginning of a semester at my college. I simply don't have the time. The story is the same with a lot of my friends. So basically, SE would be losing money by supporting a game with less than the desirable amount of players. I don't know if that clears it up somewhat?
#47 Feb 07 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
It's common to get defensive while defending something, but it's definitely not in a hostile or flame-instigating way, so don't worry, my "knickers" are not "in a knot" over anything. :) And I don't think anyone in this thread is posting arguments hoping that they will have "substantial weight," it's a message board to explore ideas, and as long as the ideas aren't completely moronic, then I don't see the point in stubbornly trying to squash them. I have read some thought-provoking arguments here and people have shed light on many issues I was ignorant to before. I think the OP meant for this thread to be more 'explorative' than "This is what's actually going to happen so get over it." The arguments in favor of an October release date, which have been the most recent arguments, are not DIRECTLY CONTRARY to anything the developers at SE have said, so those arguments will continue to carry weight with me until I see a legitimate argument to the contrary, which I have yet to see.


I agree with a potential October release date. In my first post in this thread I actually said that an October/November release is more likely than August/September. What I don't agree with are arguments that suggest SE is better off releasing to hit a certain window even if the overall quality of the game has to suffer in order to do so. I don't agree with arguments that imply it's better to rope in as many people as possible with an unfinished product than for SE to take their time and do it right. Five years in development...approaching six...another 2-3 months isn't going to kill SE. Unless, of course, SE decides to shave 2-3 months off and release a sub-par product as opposed to taking a little extra time (if necessary) to release something that both the devs and the players will be happy with.

SE has set very lofty goals for their new MMO. "The best Final Fantasy game ever" is not something that supports an argument to the effect that they're willing to sacrifice quality for initial numbers.
#48 Feb 08 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I agree with a potential October release date. In my first post in this thread I actually said that an October/November release is more likely than August/September. What I don't agree with are arguments that suggest SE is better off releasing to hit a certain window even if the overall quality of the game has to suffer in order to do so.


I think I missed someone making this argument?

Quote:
I don't agree with arguments that imply it's better to rope in as many people as possible with an unfinished product than for SE to take their time and do it right.


And definitely this one.

Quote:
Five years in development...approaching six...another 2-3 months isn't going to kill SE. Unless, of course, SE decides to shave 2-3 months off and release a sub-par product as opposed to taking a little extra time (if necessary) to release something that both the devs and the players will be happy with.

SE has set very lofty goals for their new MMO. "The best Final Fantasy game ever" is not something that supports an argument to the effect that they're willing to sacrifice quality for initial numbers.


Now this argument I can agree with, although worded a bit dramatically in the first paragraph. My main belief from the beginning of this thread as I have tried to express is that I believe SE will release the game when it is ready, but their definition of "ready" may not line up with everyone else's.
#49 Feb 08 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
Bluefirefly wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I agree with a potential October release date. In my first post in this thread I actually said that an October/November release is more likely than August/September. What I don't agree with are arguments that suggest SE is better off releasing to hit a certain window even if the overall quality of the game has to suffer in order to do so.


I think I missed someone making this argument?

Quote:
I don't agree with arguments that imply it's better to rope in as many people as possible with an unfinished product than for SE to take their time and do it right.


And definitely this one.


When someone argues for a release date based on when the game is likely to sell the most, they're ignoring what matters. That's the issue.
#50 Feb 08 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
When someone argues for a release date based on when the game is likely to sell the most, they're ignoring what matters. That's the issue.


Ok, this will be my last post on the issue. No one is ignoring the arguments you have produced, nor "what matters." In fact, if anything I think I have tried to incorporate these exact precautions into my theories. The arguments are not for a release date based solely on when the game is likely to sell most, even at face value. That is significantly flattening the arguments compiled here. I have seen many aspects taken into consideration, from that one small point to when people will have time the play the game to when they will be competing for subs with other games to when the betas will come into effect. Thanks for all the suggestions and info, everyone who's contributed!
#51 Feb 08 2010 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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128 posts
Bluefirefly wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
When someone argues for a release date based on when the game is likely to sell the most, they're ignoring what matters. That's the issue.


Ok, this will be my last post on the issue. No one is ignoring the arguments you have produced, nor "what matters." In fact, if anything I think I have tried to incorporate these exact precautions into my theories. The arguments are not for a release date based solely on when the game is likely to sell most, even at face value. That is significantly flattening the arguments compiled here. I have seen many aspects taken into consideration, from that one small point to when people will have time the play the game to when they will be competing for subs with other games to when the betas will come into effect. Thanks for all the suggestions and info, everyone who's contributed!


Thank you, bro. I really appreciate the comments you've made in this thread and it really seems like you have a very open mind about everyone's suggestions and such. I also like the progression of your theory on the release of the game through the incorporation of news/research as you learn it. Once again, nice job bro.

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 1:42am by Twangaz
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