Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

userfriendly, gamey vs immersion?Follow

#1 Feb 07 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
77 posts
Hey all i was browsing through the new videos on gametrailers and i found a rather interesting trailer for an online beta.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/open-beta-mortal-online/61673

Course, the graphics and artstyle are pretty buggy and generic. Compared to todays more stylized MMo's and especially compared to FFXIV and ffxi's japanese grounded fantasy look, i probably wont ever play because that world just looks empty/boring.

But it did have some very interesting ideas behind it. Basically whoever was developing it thought all the little innovations of todays mmo's were not really innovations at all. They stripped out map and radar, instances and tout that you can 'change' the world and that the game would be based on 'skill'. i decided to check some sort of review out and found this

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-07-12/20090712191300630.shtml

the interesting thing that struck me is that the reviewer stated that the absence of a radar actually made the game feel more immersive since you were actually lost. In FFXI you were pretty much lost when you didn't buy the map to the area. I believe that it was actually a nice feeling being lost in a unfamiliar area. Granted, in a Beta everyone is lost even with a map.

So what do you guys think about this other mmo? whether your impressions are from the beta or just watching the trailer i would like to know. How much userfriendliness do you want in FFXIV? What kind of Userfriendliness do you want?
#2 Feb 07 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
531 posts
I like the idea of not knowing where you are until you buy a map/quest for it. My ideal game would have where there would be a bunch of quests in a new area as you start to search around, and then those quests lead you to all different parts of the area so in turn you are discovering and figuring out where everything is for that place.
____________________________






#3 Feb 07 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
Bunch of quests in a new area to make you search around... hate to say it, but WoW did that. Most of their quest chains are based in a hub and they start to send you further afield as you progress through them. However, you do have a map that slowly gets filled out as you explore - which makes more sense to me than having to buy a map of an area. For example, it was really frustrating getting lost in Fei'Yin the first few times I had to go there for quests and whatnot. Even as a thf, I just simply didn't have the patience to wandering around in there long enough to find the chest for the map. (Unless it was quested... I forget).

Exploration is fun - FFXI made me want to do that so much more than WoW did. But you should be rewarded for this exploration somehow. WoW does small xp gains for discovering new parts of a zone and you get a chunk of your map revealed. While it's not a perfect system, it does make it worth while (a couple kills worth of xp) to look around. I like to see something similar in XIV. SE did a great job with their zones in XI (minus the many obstacles that you should have been able to jump/crawl/vault/life your feet up an inch or two more to get over) and I'd like to see more in the zones to make the full exploration worthwhile beyond finding a great spot to enjoy a good screenie.

As for the other game - I'm leery of sandbox games. While I think it's a really cool concept, I'm personally more of a story person and I'd like there to be an over-arching structure guiding me along the world with that story. That doesn't mean I want a LINEAR game (I should be able to do various quests/missions etc. at my own pace, whenever I so choose), but when that story based structure not in a game, I find myself a little lost. It also looks like open world pvp will be an option - which is great if that's what you want. The last thing I want to have to deal with in a game is if I'm going to a new quest hub or exploring an area, I don't want to have to worry about the locals who've gone and made a village or guild fort in the area come streaming out of nowhere to kill me. The mobs in the area are enough. It would encourage people to make friends and level in groups, but that would be more for mutual protection than perhaps for fun.
#4 Feb 07 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
**
736 posts


Depends on the level design.

If the devs made sure there were unique elements present throughout an environment that you could eventually learn to use as landmarks, then being sans map and radar is ohkie dohkie by me. If one little corner looks exactly the same as every other little corner, I think it's a recipe for disaster.

#5 Feb 07 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
dalm wrote:
However, you do have a map that slowly gets filled out as you explore - which makes more sense to me than having to buy a map of an area.


This.

Most of the D&D based games are like that. Definitely makes more sense. However, I think both options should be available. If you enter an area you've never been to before, the map gets filled as you explore. Or, you can also buy the map in town so that the map is instantly filled for you.

____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#6 Feb 07 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
dalm wrote:
Bunch of quests in a new area to make you search around... hate to say it, but WoW did that. Most of their quest chains are based in a hub and they start to send you further afield as you progress through them. However, you do have a map that slowly gets filled out as you explore - which makes more sense to me than having to buy a map of an area. For example, it was really frustrating getting lost in Fei'Yin the first few times I had to go there for quests and whatnot. Even as a thf, I just simply didn't have the patience to wandering around in there long enough to find the chest for the map. (Unless it was quested... I forget).

Exploration is fun - FFXI made me want to do that so much more than WoW did. But you should be rewarded for this exploration somehow. WoW does small xp gains for discovering new parts of a zone and you get a chunk of your map revealed. While it's not a perfect system, it does make it worth while (a couple kills worth of xp) to look around. I like to see something similar in XIV. SE did a great job with their zones in XI (minus the many obstacles that you should have been able to jump/crawl/vault/life your feet up an inch or two more to get over) and I'd like to see more in the zones to make the full exploration worthwhile beyond finding a great spot to enjoy a good screenie.


That's probably not a good sign that you're using Fei'Yin as an example seeing as it is a very easy map to obtain in the game, so I must say I'm on the opposite spectrum on this point. I don't think it should be so easy as you walk somewhere one time to do a quest and presto you now magically get part of the map. I like the idea of having to do things the hard way until you do buy/unlock/whatever the map and it added to the mystery, fun, as well as frustration of the game. I'm sure that like in XI, you will start out with necessary maps but I hope to see the harder areas be more secretive unless earned.

I think not having maps period, however, would make it tedious to have to go back to the same places. For example, there have been instances where I quit the game for 3-4 months at a time and when I came back, would have had no idea where a lot of mission/quest spots were if it weren't for the little tacks I left on my map with labels to remind me.

Not having maps would also most likely severely limit the size of the zones we can explore in. I like having a large zone to explore and spread out in, but without maps, it would be far too easy to get lost and frustrating for players to use "landmarks" everywhere they go. How many landmarks would need to be put into a considerably large area for people with no sense of direction to find their way? Or would everyone just have to stick to the path and increase the length of time it takes to travel across the world (another fear)? Also, if things still aggro in this game, which I'm sure they do, it would be an even bigger pain to have to keep your eyes out for landmarks rather than things that want to kill you.
#7 Feb 07 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I'd honestly prefer XI's method. Just allow us to bring up the map in a smaller window, is all.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#8 Feb 07 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
fun > realism, almost always.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#9 Feb 07 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
77 posts
"fun > realism, almost always."

This is not really about realism. ..
#10 Feb 07 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
Quote:
That's probably not a good sign that you're using Fei'Yin as an example seeing as it is a very easy map to obtain in the game, so I must say I'm on the opposite spectrum on this point. I don't think it should be so easy as you walk somewhere one time to do a quest and presto you now magically get part of the map.


Well, it's been a number of years since I played XI, but if I recall, I never got the map for it in all my time playing (I did play for quite a while and eventually just didn't need a map at all) so it couldn't have been THAT easy ;). Or I was lazy, which is likely the bigger reason. Regardless, I'm sure I could think of a few more examples of maps (ie. Sea, Sky) that were a pain to get that would have made much more sense if you'd drawn out the floors of the towers as you went along.

Regardless, in my mind, things don't just "magically appear" on a map. If you think about it logically, you've explored enough of a region, you sit down in camp and take a few minutes to draw out what you've explored. Of course, it's stylized so that a part of the map does appear; there's already enough timesinks in MMOs, the last thing we need to do is make camp every few minutes to fill out a map.

Even if it's not the same large chunks that WoW gives you, it still makes sense that, as an adventurer hoping NOT to get lost on their way home or back to important sites for later, you'd mark it down on a map. I'd even take a square by square revealing on a FFXI map over having to quest for maps, like we did for some of them. By the time I'd gotten some of the maps later on in the game (like Sky, which was a chest and key drop inside the Palace, if I recall), I didn't need it anymore. If I were actually exploring that area, I would have drawn it out a long time before I got lucky enough to find a key on some random monster, hunted down a chest that magically (and yes, in this case, it would be magically) had the map I needed of the area.

Quote:
Just allow us to bring up the map in a smaller window, is all.


Agreed.


Edited, Feb 7th 2010 4:40pm by dalm

Edited, Feb 7th 2010 4:41pm by dalm
#11 Feb 07 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
*
223 posts
dalm wrote:
Well, it's been a number of years since I played XI, but if I recall, I never got the map for it in all my time playing (I did play for quite a while and eventually just didn't need a map at all) so it couldn't have been THAT easy ;). Or I was lazy, which is likely the bigger reason. Regardless, I'm sure I could think of a few more examples of maps (ie. Sea, Sky) that were a pain to get that would have made much more sense if you'd drawn out the floors of the towers as you went along.

Regardless, in my mind, things don't just "magically appear" on a map. If you think about it logically, you've explored enough of a region, you sit down in camp and take a few minutes to draw out what you've explored. Of course, it's stylized so that a part of the map does appear; there's already enough timesinks in MMOs, the last thing we need to do is make camp every few minutes to fill out a map.

Even if it's not the same large chunks that WoW gives you, it still makes sense that, as an adventurer hoping NOT to get lost on their way home or back to important sites for later, you'd mark it down on a map. I'd even take a square by square revealing on a FFXI map over having to quest for maps, like we did for some of them. By the time I'd gotten some of the maps later on in the game (like Sky, which was a chest and key drop inside the Palace, if I recall), I didn't need it anymore. If I were actually exploring that area, I would have drawn it out a long time before I got lucky enough to find a key on some random monster, hunted down a chest that magically (and yes, in this case, it would be magically) had the map I needed of the area.


I am quite the opposite. I always try to get a map of an area as early on as I can, and I honestly think your idea might be realistic, but isn't it also realistic that there would be people who exist who sell maps? :P I think it would take a lot more time and energy to have to explore every little crevice of the new world than to be able to buy maps or simply unlock a chest you come across while in Sky. When you think about it, how many maps DID you already have/buy/quest that saved you the trouble of running to every little corner that didn't need to be visited for YOUR job or YOUR nation's mission? There are obviously exceptions to this idea, but for the most part, spending the time camping a few chests or getting a storyline out of it probably takes just as much time as it does to have to travel the entirety of the new world by foot to "draw your own map."
#12 Feb 08 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
Oh, I have NO problems with having vendors sell maps, nor do I think exploration should be the only way you acquire a map. Sorry if I gave that impression. The ones you have to quest and/or find in chests bothered me more than anything else. I mean, by the time I finally got my Sky map, I knew all the parts of the zone in and out from old school xp camps (the orginal melee burns on weapons and/or golems... sigh, those were the days) or from camping sky pops. That should have rewarded me at least portions of the map instead of having to wait for my random chest to pop.

I totally agree that in FFXI, an explore and unlock map areas type idea wouldn't have worked as traveling took far to long, which you pointed out. I'm hoping they make it easier to get around (mounts of some kind that you can summon whenever you want after you've met the requirements) so that it's more fun to explore and that you get rewarded for doing so.
#13 Feb 08 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
I prefer the original Everquest methods of navigation. I used to move through the zones using visual landmarks. A fork in a the road, a tree, a certain hill, all told me which directions to go. How's that for realism? Occasionally I'd note the location value of something important (X/Y coordinates), but there were no in game maps.

Travel in modern MMO's is so boring and uneventful now with waypoints and maps. People began to rely on them too much. No wonder people are crying tedium and requesting instant travel. Its the same with many of the other 'advancements' that have come over the years. The world of the modern MMO feels more like a game and less like the open world you can loose yourself adventuring in.
#14 Feb 08 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
zhinse wrote:
"fun > realism, almost always."

This is not really about realism. ..
sure it is, it's "realistic" to not have autoupdating maps w/ waypoints and radar unless you're playing a game set in the current/future era with GPS. However, it makes the game much more playable and fun. You can "explore" with maps/radar or not use them if you prefer even if they're available. If you don't include them though, people can get seriously lost in mazeish areas which is frustrating for them as well as everyone that has to wait on them. Fast, easy travel is a must for people who actually want to do group activities rather than just wander, and doesn't hurt people that just want to explore by themselves. It's makes the game more fun/playable, thus should be included, even though it's "less realistic/immersive" for the setting.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#15 Feb 08 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I've always found that even slightly more than moderate use of fast travel in games tend to greatly shrink and de-immersify what would normally feel like a large and expansive world.

XI had a pretty good balance going with the OP warps.

Edited, Feb 8th 2010 10:32am by Kirbster
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#16 Feb 08 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
shintasama wrote:
sure it is, it's "realistic" to not have autoupdating maps w/ waypoints and radar unless you're playing a game set in the current/future era with GPS. However, it makes the game much more playable and fun. You can "explore" with maps/radar or not use them if you prefer even if they're available. If you don't include them though, people can get seriously lost in mazeish areas which is frustrating for them as well as everyone that has to wait on them. Fast, easy travel is a must for people who actually want to do group activities rather than just wander, and doesn't hurt people that just want to explore by themselves. It's makes the game more fun/playable, thus should be included, even though it's "less realistic/immersive" for the setting.


I think this is a great point. It's a lot like the voicechat argument; just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. Why because other people need a map to find where they're going and optimize travel time for their own reasons does that you can't choose not to use the map and completely immerse yourself? In FFXI you did have to specifically pull the map up from the selection screen so it didn't take away from the immersion at all if you didn't use it. I don't think there are any disadvantages to having a map, because you have the choice of whether or not to use it. I do think that giving people radars that point you in the direction you need to go in (like in AoC) is spoon-feeding the players, but that's a whole different subject.
#17 Feb 08 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
3,112 posts
I would really like it if someone would create a game were the mapping was done as an auto-update, but you needed a certain skill to have it occur. The higher in skill you got, the better detail would be transposed to the map.

That said, if you hung around a certain area long enough you would get that same level of detail over time, but higher skill would get you there faster. Add a little more realism to the game while not making it insane to map everything yourself (which I have done on many occossions back in the NES days...)
____________________________
95THF, 95DRG, 90BRD, 94BLM, 95BLU, 90COR - Retired: Nov 2011
Someday soon my friends, this ride will come to and end, and we can't just get in line again.
#18 Feb 08 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
Grandlethal wrote:
which I have done on many occossions back in the NES days...)


Ah, Metroid. Good times.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#19 Feb 08 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
423 posts
Yeah it is a little stupid to think if i spend 20 hours in a zone i won't know what it looks like unless i quest/buy/find a certain map.

I could easily draw it out, visit a website if i have access, ask a friend... but why? Convenience doesn't need to be a handout, we can still work for it. Some of the cheaper maps i'd gladly buy to see the area before i hit it, but sometimes it's so much work to get a map only for the convenience of not running around blindly.
#20 Feb 08 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
boriss wrote:
Yeah it is a little stupid to think if i spend 20 hours in a zone i won't know what it looks like unless i quest/buy/find a certain map.

I could easily draw it out, visit a website if i have access, ask a friend... but why? Convenience doesn't need to be a handout, we can still work for it. Some of the cheaper maps i'd gladly buy to see the area before i hit it, but sometimes it's so much work to get a map only for the convenience of not running around blindly.


After 20 hours in a zone I'd start to remember landmarks and locations myself and wouldn't need a GPS map to tell me where I am. You know what it looks like based on your personal experience with the area, the same way your character would learn if they were a real person in that environment. Maps are great, but I really think they should be missing the GPS dot. Waypoints, GPS maps, and some of the other hand holding devices common in 'modern' MMOs are what make it feel 'gamey'

As for the earlier post about just choosing not to use the map feature, how patient would other players would be if a new group member says to them: "sorry guys, I don't use maps so I'm a little lost... but I'll get there eventually!" Unfortunately I think you're forced to use the crutches provided to you by the game when playing with others, or they will find someone else who does.
#21 Feb 08 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
So you have a map, but there's no dot on the map to show you where you are? Seems a little backwards to me. If you were pulling out a map irl, you'd be able to figure out where you're at based on the landmarks, sun/star/moon positions etc. by looking from the map to the surroundings. But being that in the end this IS a game, we don't have the luxury to view the world in true 3d... so to expedite to process of locating yourself on the map, they provide a dot. I don't think that takes away from immersion.

I'm totally on board with not having waypoints on maps though. In a recent update, WoW has added those for questing (which was in response to an addon that did that; enough people used it, Blizzard figured they might as well have it. You can turn it off as an option, but being that leveling until you get to the newest expansion area is incredibly tedious and empty, giving players a view of the different locations they need to get to for certain quests etc. seems like a good idea to get people to endgame pve or pvp, which holds people more than leveling, methinks) and it takes away from the experience. I've never had the same immersion in WoW as FFXI - but that had nothing to do with the maps. It had to do with, as has been mentioned, the travel time. Things like my first run through Jugner >> Pashhow >> Rolanberry, dodging agro at every turn to get to Jeuno for the first time (I don't think I breathed more than four times the entire harrowing journey) made it a real experience.

That being said, I don't want travel to take as long in XVI as XI. It took FOREVER to get around without a tele or op warping - and I'm willing to be some people never saw the Windy OP warp, depending on their server and nation. So to tie back in to the OP, for user friendliness, I'd like to see different modes of transportation available earlier on in the game.
#22 Feb 08 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Quote:
the same way your character would learn if they were a real person in that environment
*coughpurerealityisnotfunthatswhyweplaygamescough*
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#23 Feb 08 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
180 posts
shintasama wrote:
Quote:
the same way your character would learn if they were a real person in that environment
*coughpurerealityisnotfunthatswhyweplaygamescough*


Depends on your idea of fun I guess. I play MMO's for the 'adventure', and because I can't wield a sword and fight monsters in real life. A GPS dot and waypoints are hardly adventuring. Those kind of game crutches make the travel and questing process streamlined and boring. Then you get people wanting to remove travel altogether because at that point it becomes trivial.

I guess the same people that enjoy those things are the same ones that go 'camping' in an RV. You're missing out on part of the experience. I don't see how it's that hard to look at a map sans dot and figure out where you are by looking at your surroundings. Glad at least some people agree with me on the waypoints.
#24 Feb 08 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
*
223 posts
Calispel wrote:
I guess the same people that enjoy those things are the same ones that go 'camping' in an RV. You're missing out on part of the experience. I don't see how it's that hard to look at a map sans dot and figure out where you are by looking at your surroundings. Glad at least some people agree with me on the waypoints.


I happen to be one of those people who loves camping (in national forests sans RV) and while I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I don't think having a GPS dot on the map that shows you where you are really takes away from the immersion.

Are you honestly saying you'd rather have to look for landmarks every single time you want to use your map to figure out where you are? Because as cute as that might be the first few times, there isn't going to be a leaf that you can recognize in every corner of FFXIV, let's face it. It's an MMO world, not a painting by one of the masters.

You can't use all your senses nor, as someone said, see the world in 3D, and I don't want the world to be so unrealistic that there are oddly shaped stones everywhere that I can use as landmarks. Sometimes when you're in the forest, you would have no idea where you are unless you make your OWN landmarks, which we can't do in this game. I think the GPS dot creates the necessary balance between the arguments, while not having it or having waypoints takes it to the opposite extremes. It's not that it is necessarily "hard" but more along the lines of tedious. I think the number of people who want to pay attention to every single detail along the way is far less than those that will enjoy looking at it the first several times and then when the scenery isn't changed revert to using their maps.
#25 Feb 09 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
59 posts
Will it be more fun if they let us draw out the map ourselves? We start out with a blank sheet of paper. We explore a little, and then draw the map out based on what we observed using the UI in the game.

SE can make an option of letting people to make copies of their maps to distribute to others. The accuracy of the map can varies, so the players can decide to carry multiple maps or get from someone with good reputation of making good maps. Of course, hopefully it going to be in different inventory as equipments and items.

I think this can add another fun element into the game. People can be a professional explorer and maps drawer, just like the person who made the maps in FFXI, forgot his name. Artists in real life can show their talents through this as well.
#26 Feb 09 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
*
107 posts
I like not having a map unless one was purchased or quested for. I really loved how there were no waypoints or GPS beacons in XI. I hope that we don't get auto markers or glowing beacons that lead us straight to whatever. IMO that takes much of the fun out of going somewhere in the game.

I really hope in XIV the devs can tie in travel and map making to one or two of the Diciplines of the Hand or Land.

Like maybe a player is following the Discipline of the Land and one of the abilities is to make map markers that other people can see on their own map. Combine that with a player in the Discipline of the Hand line of skills who can craft basic area maps once they have spent x amount of time and have walked a good portion of the area, or who has a map of the area already (they can print books, surely they can make a copy of a map).

If the 2 players team up(or one player can learn both), they could make specific maps, like a map with resource locations or monster hunting grounds (not too specific, maybe a circled area or something) and sell maps to others.

In a lot of games, we have NPCs who will say "go here and get "x" for me. I'll mark it on your map". I think this is something we should be able to do, given we skill up the required Disciplines.
____________________________
FFXI Hazero, Elvan PLD, retiered.
CoV, King Ghidora, Dominator retired
AoC, Mecha Ghidora, Dark Templar retired
Tabula Rasa, Super King, Grenadier retired
SWG, Hazero Ghidora, retired
DCUO, Crushlordian Earth Tank Retired
#27 Feb 09 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
KingGhidora wrote:
I like not having a map unless one was purchased or quested for. I really loved how there were no waypoints or GPS beacons in XI. I hope that we don't get auto markers or glowing beacons that lead us straight to whatever. IMO that takes much of the fun out of going somewhere in the game.

I really hope in XIV the devs can tie in travel and map making to one or two of the Diciplines of the Hand or Land.

Like maybe a player is following the Discipline of the Land and one of the abilities is to make map markers that other people can see on their own map. Combine that with a player in the Discipline of the Hand line of skills who can craft basic area maps once they have spent x amount of time and have walked a good portion of the area, or who has a map of the area already (they can print books, surely they can make a copy of a map).

If the 2 players team up(or one player can learn both), they could make specific maps, like a map with resource locations or monster hunting grounds (not too specific, maybe a circled area or something) and sell maps to others.

In a lot of games, we have NPCs who will say "go here and get "x" for me. I'll mark it on your map". I think this is something we should be able to do, given we skill up the required Disciplines.
Why would anyone skillup/buy something in game they could alt+tab and look up on a website? In every other game I've played you could always turn off waypoints and the like, so don't use them if you don't want them, just don't make everyone else "RV"/wander lost/hand write maps/take 45min to get to a site to party for 30min before someone has to leave and you end up taking 45min to get back to wherever. I just want to fight ****, not watch my avatar run around in circles for hours. Maps and quick, painless transportation are a must.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#28 Feb 09 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
I've always been a proponent of a cartographer crafting profession. People who like exploring can take this profession to create maps and sell them to players. Explorers get rewarded for their exploring and people who don't like exploring get their maps. The higher level in cartography you have the better the map you can make with beginners making simple geographical maps and experts creating all sorts of maps be it geopolitical, economic, basically whatever type of map you see in an atlas and being able to label gathering nodes, secret entrances to dungeons/caves, NM locations or whatever else.
#29 Feb 09 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Yogtheterrible wrote:
I've always been a proponent of a cartographer crafting profession. People who like exploring can take this profession to create maps and sell them to players. Explorers get rewarded for their exploring and people who don't like exploring get their maps. The higher level in cartography you have the better the map you can make with beginners making simple geographical maps and experts creating all sorts of maps be it geopolitical, economic, basically whatever type of map you see in an atlas and being able to label gathering nodes, secret entrances to dungeons/caves, NM locations or whatever else.
That's great, but:
Quote:
Why would anyone skillup/buy something in game they could alt+tab and look up on a website?
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#30 Feb 09 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I would love mapmaking. (Or personalizing your own maps via drawing) But the maps would have to bestow additional benefits aside from simple navigation, otherwise people would just check websites.

Waypoints by default irritate me and 'arcadify' and simplify games too much. I dislike having my hand unnecessarily held. But if having the map in game gave you waypoints or a compass that showed you which direction to go according to points plotted on a map, that'd be pretty neat.
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#31 Feb 09 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
They can always make it so you can't even find certain things unless you are a cartographer or someone who has a cartographers map.

Plus you could always find the maps online (if you had windower) or print them out or just memorize the map for FFXI but people still bought them or spent time to find them. It just makes it a lot easier if you have the map available to you through the game itself. Plus it would be huge for RPers.

Or, using FFXI as an example, coupled with a WHM's teleport you can create special teleport locations through your map. People have a hard time getting to a dungeon? Create a one time use map that teleports you to that location.

Maybe a cartographer shouldn't be limited to simply making maps but to influencing the land itself. Influence a certain NM or a resource node to spawn more frequenly. Create a path free of monsters for someone who just wants to get somewhere quickly. Obviously there has to be limits to what can be done but I can see a lot of potential in the cartographer profession.

Edited, Feb 9th 2010 10:13am by Yogtheterrible
#32 Feb 09 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
shintasama wrote:
Yogtheterrible wrote:
I've always been a proponent of a cartographer crafting profession. People who like exploring can take this profession to create maps and sell them to players. Explorers get rewarded for their exploring and people who don't like exploring get their maps. The higher level in cartography you have the better the map you can make with beginners making simple geographical maps and experts creating all sorts of maps be it geopolitical, economic, basically whatever type of map you see in an atlas and being able to label gathering nodes, secret entrances to dungeons/caves, NM locations or whatever else.
That's great, but:
Quote:
Why would anyone skillup/buy something in game they could alt+tab and look up on a website?


It's probably better for usability purposes to have it in the game as opposed to a web site. Also if you have a map online but not a matching map in-game, then it's a lot harder to figure out where you are b/c you don't have a marker of your own character on a map.

I do like Yog's proposal, but what if one guy mass-produces a ton of maps via copy/paste. Then everyone will end up buying from one person? Or should players be witheld to creating one map at a time, and unable to copy maps they have already made?
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#33 Feb 09 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
***
2,084 posts
I don't think an economy for selling maps is too viable in an MMO given the amount of wikis and the obvious problems that can stem from monopolies and the process of selling them and appraising them.

But creating your own maps...
____________________________
What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?
#34 Feb 09 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
*
107 posts
Quote:
Why would anyone skillup/buy something in game they could alt+tab and look up on a website?


Not everyone who plays an MMO looks at boards and wikis and FAQ sites. Not everyone who will play FFXIV will play it on a PC. Not everyone who plays FFXIV on a PS3 will play it next to a PC or have access to a PC while they are playing on the PS3. Checking a forum or wiki or a FAQ is second nature to most people on this board (obviously), but we don't make up the masses of gamers.

I would love it if we got some type of cartography skills from the Discipline of the Land. I like yog's idea. I just hope we don't get glowing blips on a mini map and quest waypoints with arrows on the screen.



____________________________
FFXI Hazero, Elvan PLD, retiered.
CoV, King Ghidora, Dominator retired
AoC, Mecha Ghidora, Dark Templar retired
Tabula Rasa, Super King, Grenadier retired
SWG, Hazero Ghidora, retired
DCUO, Crushlordian Earth Tank Retired
#35 Feb 09 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
*
95 posts
I hated the map system in ffxi. WoW definitely got it right by opening a part of the map by just exploring. so many of the areas in ffxi i just had memorized because the map was bothersome to obtain. I agree that we could do both systems and people would be fine with it.
____________________________
Sin(SWTOR): 50 Jedi Sentinel

Krystalin(FFXI) :(retired) 85BRD/85BLM/85WAR/85BLU/85SAM/85DRG/85PLD/85RDM/85THF/85DRK/75BST/75PUP/75COR/75MNK/75NIN/75RNG

Vikzul(WoW):(retired) 80 rogue

Clytie(WoW):(retired) 80 pld
#36 Feb 09 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
odinpingpong wrote:

I do like Yog's proposal, but what if one guy mass-produces a ton of maps via copy/paste. Then everyone will end up buying from one person? Or should players be witheld to creating one map at a time, and unable to copy maps they have already made?


There are lots of ways around that. First of them is the cooldown. Limit the making of certain maps to a good amount of time. Another is creation time. In reality it takes a while to create a map and the same thing can hold true for the game...It's basically another form of cooldown but with different reasons. Another way is to make the creation of maps complicated enough that you can't just mass produce them. Maybe in order to create a map you have to actually visit each area on the map, even if you've already been there. Production cost can be another thing. Maybe the ink or parchment is hard to come by. Maybe maps could have a durability so that after a week or so of using one you need to get a new one making the demand for maps greater and the likelyhood of a monopoly smaller. Limit the number of items a map can display so you can't have everything you want on one map and so no one person can meet the demand for every type of map. Basically everything that is done to limit a monopoly in a normal craft like blacksmithing can be used in cartography.
#37 Feb 09 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Quote:
Checking a forum or wiki or a FAQ is second nature to most people on this board (obviously), but we don't make up the masses of gamers.
Everyone I know (online and IRL) uses online wikis to look up game information, even though almost all of them don't post/edit. The quest "hints" for FFXI were particularly vague sometimes to the point of requiring it. When I played WoW my guild would just tell people to watch ___ youtube strategy rather than the leader reiterating it. I'm pretty sure that we do make up the masses of MMO gamers in that respect.

Quote:
Basically everything that is done to limit a monopoly in a normal craft like blacksmithing can be used in cartography.
You're bringing it to the point where it's not worth it for players again. "NM" or "treasure hunting" might make it somewhat appealing, but I just can't see it being viable unless you make the rewards ridiculously OP.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#38 Feb 09 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
I actually really like the idea of a mapping skill. Not so much a mapping profession, however. How would you skill that up? Put on your cartographer hat and equip your Flamboyant Pen of Cartography (+1) and wander around? Nothing against the idea...I just can't really see a compelling implementation of a skillup process for that. If skillups were based on making maps (which would make sense), as a profession it would likely not be all that profitable. Maybe a mix of the two? Skill points earned for discovering new sub-zones within zones (ie. visiting them for the first time) and more skillups for making maps? I don't know.

But as a skill, that makes a lot of sense. How you gain skillups would be less important than it would be for a profession.
#39 Feb 10 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
Well, I don't think the profession would work in FFXIV from the information we have about it. I really want some game to have it though.

I don't understand why it would have to be OP to gain interest though. People who like exploring will do it and people who want the benefits of its maps will buy them. Simple as that.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)