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Possibility of Voice Chat? No thanks.Follow

#102 Feb 16 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
But I digress. Maybe I'm just getting old and am not hip to the new net generation, what with me not giving a sh*t about Facebook 'n all.


I hope you aren't getting old, cause I don't like anything online that publicly displays my real name and likeness either.

I don't see voicechat as the "way of things" for MMOs either, simply because I know why it's an excellent tool for FPS, and MMOs don't have that kind of constant attention requirement. I never had a problem in dynamis, or einherjar, or salvage, or nyzul isle, or high rate merit parties or any other typically frantic/time dependent activity with the use of the text chat options (also had an extremely low rate of mistells). If people in an MMO think they need to constantly be directing people during a raid need to reconsider their method of organization (we need fewer angry WoW guild leader freaking out during raids and taking away 50 DKP, not less).

That being said, ventrilo servers for a social LS can be quite fun, I know they were for me. Kinda neat to put a voice to the name.
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#103 Feb 16 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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I'm leaning towards integrated voice chat now that I know a bunch of people irl who I intend to play with. I think it would help to keep us feeling closer together if we could talk while we played, and it's just convenient if we don't need a separate PC-only application.
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#104 Feb 16 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


PC players will use vent. Console players will be screwed. It won't affect the general day-to-day leveling process but come endgame you can be absolutely assured that there will be a rift between PC and console players if integrated voice chat is either not implemented or is implemented but is of poor quality such that PC players still gravitate to third party clients and servers.


That will solve one 3rd of the problem, sure PC players will use Vent and PS3 players will use home and if it comes out on 360 then you can use XBL party-chat, but how can someone using one kind of system talk to someone using another?

I fall into the indifferent party. I played FFXI on 360 and used a keypad. I had my mic turned on to chat with my friends who were playing, but I'm not much of a talker in-game. If FFXIV isn't on the 360 at launch I'll end up getting it for PS3 and using their (awkward looking) keypad and I'll have voice-chat turned on for my friends who are also playing on PS3. It won't make or break me getting the game, but it would be useful to be able to cross system chat.
I always liked that the FFXI community was open enough that (for the most part) if you gave out your gamertag in a party you had a great time being part of, you had the potential to get to know and like some people that you enjoy playing a game with.
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#105 Feb 16 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Default
ReiThor wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


PC players will use vent. Console players will be screwed. It won't affect the general day-to-day leveling process but come endgame you can be absolutely assured that there will be a rift between PC and console players if integrated voice chat is either not implemented or is implemented but is of poor quality such that PC players still gravitate to third party clients and servers.


That will solve one 3rd of the problem, sure PC players will use Vent and PS3 players will use home and if it comes out on 360 then you can use XBL party-chat, but how can someone using one kind of system talk to someone using another?


That's my point. Without integrated voice chat, the two (three) supported platforms will be segregated from one another. I know there are a lot of people in this thread that have posted with their aversion to voice chat and that's fine. If I were the leader of an endgame LS/guild/whatever and they expressed an interest in joining, all I would ask is that they have access to voice chat so that they could listen. Anyone who has ever led a larger group in endgame content knows the benefits of being able to talk to relay strategy vs. type. If they're on a platform that precludes them from even being able to listen, I can't say that I'd have a spot for them.

I type fairly quickly, but if you're talking about a large group activity, sitting there for 15 minutes while a group leader types out roles for various different people/groups of people for an encounter with any degree of complexity is neither particularly effective nor entertaining. The same thing could be done in greater detail in 5 minutes or less via voice, which, in addition to being just flat out faster, also reduces the likelihood that people are going to zone out because it's taking so **** long to get things sorted out that they get bored.
#106 Feb 16 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
ReiThor wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


PC players will use vent. Console players will be screwed. It won't affect the general day-to-day leveling process but come endgame you can be absolutely assured that there will be a rift between PC and console players if integrated voice chat is either not implemented or is implemented but is of poor quality such that PC players still gravitate to third party clients and servers.


That will solve one 3rd of the problem, sure PC players will use Vent and PS3 players will use home and if it comes out on 360 then you can use XBL party-chat, but how can someone using one kind of system talk to someone using another?


That's my point. Without integrated voice chat, the two (three) supported platforms will be segregated from one another. I know there are a lot of people in this thread that have posted with their aversion to voice chat and that's fine. If I were the leader of an endgame LS/guild/whatever and they expressed an interest in joining, all I would ask is that they have access to voice chat so that they could listen. Anyone who has ever led a larger group in endgame content knows the benefits of being able to talk to relay strategy vs. type. If they're on a platform that precludes them from even being able to listen, I can't say that I'd have a spot for them.

I type fairly quickly, but if you're talking about a large group activity, sitting there for 15 minutes while a group leader types out roles for various different people/groups of people for an encounter with any degree of complexity is neither particularly effective nor entertaining. The same thing could be done in greater detail in 5 minutes or less via voice, which, in addition to being just flat out faster, also reduces the likelihood that people are going to zone out because it's taking so **** long to get things sorted out that they get bored.


I agree on this point. Not to say this is a very realistic option to deny people from a guild/ls for platform or voice restriction, because even in dynamis wasn't VERY difficult directing 64 12 year old's around a battlefield if you were persistent enough.

It's hard to say I would not allow someone to join based on voice chat ability. But it would be considered after more important considerations like ability, job, gear all that stuff.


In the end, some form of integrated voice chat is kinda needed in this game. Considering this game will last at least 5-7 years based on FFXIs history, and maybe more, they need to plan for future tech.
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#107 Feb 16 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Text has a perk voice doesn't, too. Backscroll.

Seriously, if you need to give out a five minute dissertation about an MMO event, make a ******* post about it in your guild forum and point all newbies to it beforehand. Console users don't really have an excuse with systems having integrated browsers these days, and I really doubt anyone has an internet connection without a PC to look things up with, too.

Because your leader will otherwise be giving that same 5 minute speech every time you get someone new. Some people like to hear themselves talk, sure, but I just don't see the need.

Edited, Feb 16th 2010 11:47pm by Seriha
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#108 Feb 16 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Text has a perk voice doesn't, too. Backscroll.

Seriously, if you need to give out a five minute dissertation about an MMO event, make a ******* post about it in your guild forum and point all newbies to it beforehand.


Doesn't work. It's been tried in many different games by many different people. The only ones who end up reading the information are the ones who least need to. What's more, the information is almost always found somewhere else on the internet for people to review in preparation for the content (unless you're one of the extreme minority who are actually on the cutting edge of progression and are working on the content before there's any compiled inforation.) Not only that, but maybe you try something that doesn't work. You need to rework the strategy on the fly, sort it out, and relay the refined strategy to the group.

Do you own a telephone despite having access to e-mail? Yes? Why?

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Because your leader will otherwise be giving that same 5 minute speech every time you get someone new. Some people like to hear themselves talk, sure, but I just don't see the need.


I assume that you're not a secluded shut-in...that you have other people around you at least occasionally. Tell me...do you walk around with a pen and a pad of paper and write down everything you want to communicate to them, or do you talk? Because if you talk to relay information...at all...ever...I'll ask you kindly to stop making the derogatory assertion that the only reason anyone would want to talk in an MMO is because they like to hear themselves.

Thank you.

Edited, Feb 16th 2010 9:21pm by AureliusSir
#109 Feb 17 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Random daily conversations are a bit different than running Dynamis for the 100th time. Really, the onus is on the leaders to point their members to required information. If the minions proceed to not read it, what makes the difference in reliably following instructions between text and voice? Are these people you really want around? At what point can personal responsibility enter the picture and people acquire their own sense of awareness with what (not) to do in any given situation? Trust me, there were some people in XI who, if I was with at the time, I knew we were invincible while saying nothing.

Remember, we're talking about a game, not a Fortune 500 company. Some might like the whole well-oiled machine motif, but that's not me. I've lorded over alliances just fine without voice chat. I've acted independently without causing disastrous results. I've described encounters and contingency plans in the event of bad luck. I've saved the day by doing things other leaders hadn't thought of in that split second.

Then again, I'm also someone who used the keyboard exclusively for XI. Typing was quick, even if abbreviated. I can see people who prefer controllers having issue, but I also consider that their choice to use a lesser input medium just as it's mine to not use voice.

Overall, back in reality, I do prefer getting little lists for shopping or miscellaneous errands. The people I'm around have a bad habit of talking to me while I'm immersed in other things (or worse, do it while talking through two walls), so I miss parts of the conversation and they always get ****** off when I ask them to repeat themselves. This trait wouldn't be lost while I'm scrambling to main heal, handling adds, or whatever, and someone starts barking orders I'm trying to distinguish them over combat and local home noise. I'm an exceptionally visual person, and this probably contributes to me drawing decently, but I also read text far faster than anyone could tangibly speak it. I'm also always trying to think 3 moves ahead. I don't need my hand held. I don't want people forcing the opinion that I can't function without voice.

If people want to use it to socialize, fine, I rarely use a phone, myself. It should never be an integral game mechanic, though. And that's my point when pointing out alternative methods of directing and that MMOs themselves aren't exactly difficult to play.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 1:13am by Seriha
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#110 Feb 17 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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you know what this thread needs? more stereotypes and blind assumptions.
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#111 Feb 17 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
If people want to use it to socialize, fine, I rarely use a phone, myself. It should never be an integral game mechanic, though. And that's my point when pointing out alternative methods of directing and that MMOs themselves aren't exactly difficult to play.


Ya know what the crazy thing is? If you have an aversion to voice chat, I don't really care. That's your thing. Your time, your subscription, whatever. Do what works for you. What bothers me is that it's not enough for you to state your aversion and leave it at that...you have to make other people wrong for preferring it. Get over it. People talk. Most people learn to talk long before they learn to read/write/type. Voice chat is a benefit to those who want to use it and has little/no impact on those who don't. You don't need to justify your aversion by being critical of the reasons other people find it useful.
#112LemmingKingXXX, Posted: Feb 17 2010 at 1:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If everyone here followed the logic of live and let live, these forums would be quite boring.
#113 Feb 17 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Good
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I just think it's more usefull if it's not integrated,but I guess that causes a lot of problems for the different platforms.

With Ventrillo the communication isn't broken, when you change characters (muling), you dc (if it's just the game server related) or are just looking at some websites while waiting for some ingame event to start.

And this isn't really about tactics, it's about socializing. Which is kind of what you're aiming for in a MMORPG, ...right?
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#114 Feb 17 2010 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Seriha wrote:
If people want to use it to socialize, fine, I rarely use a phone, myself. It should never be an integral game mechanic, though. And that's my point when pointing out alternative methods of directing and that MMOs themselves aren't exactly difficult to play.


Ya know what the crazy thing is? If you have an aversion to voice chat, I don't really care. That's your thing. Your time, your subscription, whatever. Do what works for you. What bothers me is that it's not enough for you to state your aversion and leave it at that...you have to make other people wrong for preferring it. Get over it. People talk. Most people learn to talk long before they learn to read/write/type. Voice chat is a benefit to those who want to use it and has little/no impact on those who don't. You don't need to justify your aversion by being critical of the reasons other people find it useful.


Would think my general aversion was obvious when I went through my little list earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, every time I bring up why I don't like voice chat (And I had to with people in Aion just recently, who wouldn't let. it. go.), I have to go through it, and even then I get looked at like I'm some kind of nutjob because the reasons aren't good enough for them. And this is happening with it being opt-in and still requiring a third-party program like Ventrilo.

I know and you know I'm no stranger with arguing against opinion. I'm not saying people who do use voice chat are lesser beings incapable of playing without it. However, many who insist on it seem to be too lazy to try when there are people who don't want, can't, or don't need to put a voice to the avatars. Petty player politics in stuff like this ****** me off because I have seen and can see the discriminatory potential. I can offer to work around them, but still get the stink eye.

So, what's left for me? Tell everyone to @#%^ off and never get into a big linkshell/guild/legion? Pray I find similarly-minded people for a relatively harmless opinion? Wish I were born a man? Really, we're already aware of a potential cross-platform limitation. I won't say it can't be worked around, but it might not be a high priority, either. If I had the choice between dev time going toward this or another event players could partake in, I'd go for the event every time. That might be an obvious response from me, but how about those who actually are fond of voice chat? I think the answer there is, "Well, there's still vent." Everyone wins?

Quote:
And this isn't really about tactics, it's about socializing. Which is kind of what you're aiming for in a MMORPG, ...right?


Maybe I take pride in being eloquent with my text, and proxy a bit more emotive than others, but this is also the result of like 15 years of net play writing and gaming. Like I said earlier, maybe I'm old, stubborn, or not really 100% part of this gaming generation, but I don't believe me being me is lost because my voice isn't there.

And if I do come to like someone enough, it's not like I've never given out my phone number or actually met people face-to-face before. ****, I might even take the initiative and offer a call if I sense some distress in recent behavior.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 3:37am by Seriha
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#115 Feb 17 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Seriha wrote:
If people want to use it to socialize, fine, I rarely use a phone, myself. It should never be an integral game mechanic, though. And that's my point when pointing out alternative methods of directing and that MMOs themselves aren't exactly difficult to play.


Ya know what the crazy thing is? If you have an aversion to voice chat, I don't really care. That's your thing. Your time, your subscription, whatever. Do what works for you. What bothers me is that it's not enough for you to state your aversion and leave it at that...you have to make other people wrong for preferring it. Get over it. People talk. Most people learn to talk long before they learn to read/write/type. Voice chat is a benefit to those who want to use it and has little/no impact on those who don't. You don't need to justify your aversion by being critical of the reasons other people find it useful.


Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.

Both the pot and the kettle are black it seems.
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#116 Feb 17 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.


you dont know aurelius very well. thats not his attitude at all. aurelius is looking at it more from the point of "itll be an option, not a requirement". quite honestly, if anyone every requires voice chat to do something in a pug, chances are you dont want to be playing with those people anyway. moreso than that, the things that do "require" voice chat (such as large scale raid-type encounters) tend to require it only because it allows its players to multitask easier. generally if you can prove that youre able to do your job while also typing then people dont care whether or not you talk on voice chat, just as long as you can hear.

and of course, if someone ****** you off/annoys you, you can just mute them. given SE's history and the general attitude towards privacy and security that is evident in FF11, i expect that any in-game voice chat that is provided will be highly customizeable, likely with an "ignore" list you can put annoying people on. id imagine they will likely let you ban by account and not just character name, to avoid the whole "remake as a lowbie character to harass" issue (if that even becomes an issue).
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#117 Feb 17 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
LemmingKingXXX wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Seriha wrote:
If people want to use it to socialize, fine, I rarely use a phone, myself. It should never be an integral game mechanic, though. And that's my point when pointing out alternative methods of directing and that MMOs themselves aren't exactly difficult to play.


Ya know what the crazy thing is? If you have an aversion to voice chat, I don't really care. That's your thing. Your time, your subscription, whatever. Do what works for you. What bothers me is that it's not enough for you to state your aversion and leave it at that...you have to make other people wrong for preferring it. Get over it. People talk. Most people learn to talk long before they learn to read/write/type. Voice chat is a benefit to those who want to use it and has little/no impact on those who don't. You don't need to justify your aversion by being critical of the reasons other people find it useful.


If everyone here followed the logic of live and let live, these forums would be quite boring.


When it comes to preferences around game mechanics, that's fine...when it comes to suggesting something as basic as talking is somehow offensive to them such that people who prefer voice chat have some of personality defect is patently ridiculous.

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Bottom line is this, early reports seemed to suggest that there were no plans to include integrated voice chat.


You're right...well, aside from Tanaka mentioning that they're concerned about whether or not they can get it to work.
#118 Feb 17 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Would think my general aversion was obvious when I went through my little list earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, every time I bring up why I don't like voice chat (And I had to with people in Aion just recently, who wouldn't let. it. go.), I have to go through it, and even then I get looked at like I'm some kind of nutjob because the reasons aren't good enough for them. And this is happening with it being opt-in and still requiring a third-party program like Ventrilo.


Excuses is really all you're offering. Rationalizations for why you don't want to collaborate with what the group is doing. You'd probably have been better off telling them you'd sign on to vent but if it was more uberdork babblespam than useful communication you'd be signing off. At least that way you're acknowledging and respecting their desire to coordinate at the level they're happy with while preserving your own boundaries. Collaboration, yes?
#119 Feb 17 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
Louiscool wrote:
Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.

Both the pot and the kettle are black it seems.


It wouldn't be a case of "voice chat or GTFO"...it would be a case of, "We use voice chat to coordinate events in progress. If you don't have access to voice chat or are unwilling to use it, you're going to miss out on the information you need in order to function effectively with the group." There would be no "GTFO"...there would just be no invite to join in the first place.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 8:35am by AureliusSir
#120 Feb 17 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.

Both the pot and the kettle are black it seems.


It wouldn't be a case of "voice chat or GTFO"...it would be a case of, "We use voice chat to coordinate events in progress. If you don't have access to voice chat or are unwilling to use it, you're going to miss out on the information you need in order to function effectively with the group." There would be no "GTFO"...there would just be no invite to join in the first place.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 8:35am by AureliusSir

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but considering LSs don't have a "use skype or you won't be a part of this LS" policy now, what makes you think XIV will differ substantically from XI to where it really matters?
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#121 Feb 17 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
Carrilei wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.

Both the pot and the kettle are black it seems.


It wouldn't be a case of "voice chat or GTFO"...it would be a case of, "We use voice chat to coordinate events in progress. If you don't have access to voice chat or are unwilling to use it, you're going to miss out on the information you need in order to function effectively with the group." There would be no "GTFO"...there would just be no invite to join in the first place.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but considering LSs don't have a "use skype or you won't be a part of this LS" policy now, what makes you think XIV will differ substantically from XI to where it really matters?


I'm counting on SE to offer more than tank 'n spank + RNG encounters for endgame. I'm also expecting that at least for the first while, there will be more people buying the game that played FFXI in the past and moved on to other MMOs than there will be people who played FFXI right up to FFXIV launch and migrated over. What that means is that whatever is or isn't going on in FFXI right now will not be the only determining influence in the trends and community expectations that find their way into FFXIV. Voice chat is the standard in MMOs. There's really no arguing that point so your question might actually be better worded in the reverse. With so many people accustomed to voice chat in MMOs, what makes anyone think XIV will be the exception?

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 9:31am by AureliusSir
#122 Feb 17 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just don't understand your concept of a 'voice chat only' LS when you don't even know the content this is supposed to be helping a good deal with. You'd be shutting out a lot of good people and good players*, most likely uncessesarily.

There are times where I just flat don't feel like talking, or feel like listening to some random people because of a headache, or whatever. Maybe I'm listening to music, or the tv, or I'm on the phone. Multitasking with something else.

Also to be honest, there's a good chance if I didn't have a headache, I'd get one after listening to these people. Meaning, while I'd probably be fine with the person in text, a la XI, I might not enjoy participating with them when I get the pleasure of listening/taking orders straight from the horse's mouth all the time. What if I can't find a leader/group that won't send me headed for the asprin (or various sharp objects) every night?

To be clear, I like it as an option, but as a requirement for everyone, I disagree.



*Expanding on that, that also means you wouldn't allow any players who don't speak your language to join your LS?.. To me, that'd really be a downer, as playing/communicating with people you normally wouldn't is a highlight of an online game like this.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 1:55pm by Carrilei
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#123 Feb 17 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Carrilei wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Maybe he has an issue with your "if you don't have voice chat then GTFO of the guild" attitude.

Both the pot and the kettle are black it seems.


It wouldn't be a case of "voice chat or GTFO"...it would be a case of, "We use voice chat to coordinate events in progress. If you don't have access to voice chat or are unwilling to use it, you're going to miss out on the information you need in order to function effectively with the group." There would be no "GTFO"...there would just be no invite to join in the first place.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but considering LSs don't have a "use skype or you won't be a part of this LS" policy now, what makes you think XIV will differ substantically from XI to where it really matters?


I'm counting on SE to offer more than tank 'n spank + RNG encounters for endgame.


Been gone from FFXI for a while I see...


Quote:
I'm also expecting that at least for the first while, there will be more people buying the game that played FFXI in the past and moved on to other MMOs than there will be people who played FFXI right up to FFXIV launch and migrated over. What that means is that whatever is or isn't going on in FFXI right now will not be the only determining influence in the trends and community expectations that find their way into FFXIV. Voice chat is the standard in MMOs. There's really no arguing that point so your question might actually be better worded in the reverse. With so many people accustomed to voice chat in MMOs, what makes anyone think XIV will be the exception?


I've never used voice chat in an MMO. I played WoW for 6-8 months, FFXI for 6-7 years, Phantasy Star Online for 1-2 years and many other early mmos that didn't have voice chat.

I don't WANT to talk to other players. I don't WANT to hear other players voices unless they are RL friends. I'm sorry but it RUINS the atmosphere and the RP aspect of the game to hear some 12 year old on a mic with some annoying aversion to shouting to his mom to let him play for 1 more hour.

I've used skype once in a party in FFXI and I never want to again. I'm not saying I go out and do Divine Might and then collect the Knight's Earring because I'm so hardcore roleplaying my Paladin that I would pick an inferior item or something like Reij from the FFXI boards, but when I read what people are typing I'm not FORCED out of the game to acknowledge the mithra healing me is really some fat 14 year old eating cheeto's into his mic and talking to his dad looing over his shoulder.

I'm fine with it being optional. I'm sure occasionally I would use it to talk with friends in a small party or something. But I would never join a guild requiring it. I would never join anything requiring it.

I don't know, maybe it's just from playing so much xbox 360 with racist homophobic southern 12 yeard olds singing into a mic, but I seriously doubt peoples ability to use a mic responsibly.

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#124 Feb 17 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I just don't understand your concept of a 'voice chat only' LS


There isn't one.
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#125 Feb 17 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
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I just don't understand your concept of a 'voice chat only' LS


There isn't one.


Yeah, I didn't say there's one, either. Just people who deem it mandatory for event use, of which I simply disagree on that principle. Even being on the cutting edge of content is a weak argument, as ultimately your group might have a preferred formation for flying into such things blindly before later adjusting in future runs. Really, it's all but impossible to prove that voice chat is make or break in an MMO situation, and I still stand behind a certain level of player responsibility and possibly even leadership delegation that has functioned just fine for me and others via the text medium.

I don't wanna use it. I don't wanna be pressured to. I don't wanna be denied content because I won't. When do we stop respecting personal privacy and preference for a game? Is it safe to assume we can start advocating that little xbox widget that won't let you play games if you aren't a certain weight/BMI/shape? Like I said, I don't care if people wanna do it on their own, but let's not create JP ONLY 2.0.
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#126 Feb 17 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
Seriha wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
I just don't understand your concept of a 'voice chat only' LS


There isn't one.


Yeah, I didn't say there's one, either. Just people who deem it mandatory for event use, of which I simply disagree on that principle. Even being on the cutting edge of content is a weak argument, as ultimately your group might have a preferred formation for flying into such things blindly before later adjusting in future runs. Really, it's all but impossible to prove that voice chat is make or break in an MMO situation, and I still stand behind a certain level of player responsibility and possibly even leadership delegation that has functioned just fine for me and others via the text medium.

I don't wanna use it. I don't wanna be pressured to. I don't wanna be denied content because I won't. When do we stop respecting personal privacy and preference for a game? Is it safe to assume we can start advocating that little xbox widget that won't let you play games if you aren't a certain weight/BMI/shape? Like I said, I don't care if people wanna do it on their own, but let's not create JP ONLY 2.0.



This right here sums up how I feel very nicely. It'd be nice to have it as an option I'm sure, but I'm personally not all that interested. Very well said Seriha Smiley: schooled

ps LOL at whoever the braindead moron is who keeps karma bombing half the forum. Go play with a light socket.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 2:00pm by Osarion
#127 Feb 17 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Aure, please use edit when you have a new point to make instead of triple posting. And wanting voice chat to "socialize" is just an excuse for people to be creepy if you ask me. Too many excited young men/older men in these games and they tend to perv on you in a heartbeat.
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#128 Feb 17 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Since when did not being able to hear whoever's voice stop people from perving? lol
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#129 Feb 17 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha, I honestly don't care if you're going to chat or not, but I don't like the fact that you're putting words in the mouths of others like saying chat will be mandatary and there for is the root of all evil or something. I don't like these extremist views about others might think. It's an option. If you don't like it, stay away form it. If you don't like people/linkshells who do use it, stay away from those. There will be plenty of other people to do stuff with.

Quote:
And wanting voice chat to "socialize" is just an excuse for people to be creepy if you ask me. Too many excited young men/older men in these games and they tend to perv on you in a heartbeat.


Does no one have a social linkshell these days? Does no one have a group of friends they like to hang out with? Talking about basically everything and nothing at the same time together? Is it so hard to believe that this can be fun sometimes?
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#130 Feb 17 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Yeah, I didn't say there's one, either. Just people who deem it mandatory for event use, of which I simply disagree on that principle. Even being on the cutting edge of content is a weak argument, as ultimately your group might have a preferred formation for flying into such things blindly before later adjusting in future runs. Really, it's all but impossible to prove that voice chat is make or break in an MMO situation, and I still stand behind a certain level of player responsibility and possibly even leadership delegation that has functioned just fine for me and others via the text medium.

I don't wanna use it. I don't wanna be pressured to. I don't wanna be denied content because I won't. When do we stop respecting personal privacy and preference for a game? Is it safe to assume we can start advocating that little xbox widget that won't let you play games if you aren't a certain weight/BMI/shape? Like I said, I don't care if people wanna do it on their own, but let's not create JP ONLY 2.0.


I'm not the kind of person to pressure people into using voice chat if they don't feel comfortable. I am, however, the kind of person who would refuse a request to join a group for large scale endgame content if they couldn't be bothered to listen in on voice chat. Why the **** should I be asked to type everything when I've got a voice chat client and server access at my fingertips in order to accommodate someone's personal preference? The answer? I shouldn't. So rather than being a mean guy I would simply acknowledge their right to do what they want and my right to run things the way that works best for my group and if our goals and means of achieving them don't coincide, great. I don't owe you anything. You don't owe me anything. We're quits on the whole deal. Problem solved.

When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.

Don't make your problems mine.

Edited, Feb 17th 2010 3:49pm by AureliusSir
#131 Feb 17 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really want to fuel the fire, but I just wanted to add this comment.

SE has already said that they are removing auto-attack. This probably means you will have to spend more time hitting macros to command your character to attack and have less time to type messages to your party members. My point is, voice chat in FFXIV may be more of a necessity than what it was in FFXI.


#132 Feb 17 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.


There's a variety of reasons that would tend someone towards a personal preference of just not wanting to use voice chat. They are not "childish".

On the contrary, using voice chat to achieve greater efficiency in a video game is not automatically "mature" by comparison. It is a tool.

You wanna sling some mud at Seriha, go ahead, but lots of people just don't "wanna" use voice chat.
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#133 Feb 17 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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In my experience, Most people will not push the voice chat option.

First, they may not have a mic or headset for a console.

Second, it may sound stupid, but voice chat is a tad more personal than typing, and some people tend to not want to voice chat because they don't know you. It's not necessarily shy. More like not wanting to get too personal in a game. It's their decision and I can respect a person's decision not to use a mic. And lets face it, Any time you have microphones in a random group of people, the conversation is going to turn towards ***, politics, or religion debates. I defy anyone to find a random conversation between strangers online where opinions other than these 3 are not the main topics.

well, that and sports teams.
#134 Feb 17 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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You wanna sling some mud at Seriha, go ahead, but lots of people just don't "wanna" use voice chat.


if someone doesnt wanna, then they dont have too. in all likelihood, SE will do the same thing blizzard did when they added VOIP to WoW; they'll give you a little check box that says "enable voice chat" and if its checked, its on. if its not checked, its off.

point being, itll be an option. not something that is a necessity, but a choice.
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#135 Feb 17 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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I'm quite aware of the possibility, as I said earlier in the thread I actually think the game would overall benefit from some form of voice chat. Lots of players -do- want to use it, and it can be very useful.

I was just responding to the "Childish" comment: Not wanting to use voice chat because of personal preference isn't childish. Not that I'm saying Seriha hasn't exaggerated in some of these posts, just commenting on the 'childish' bit.
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#136 Feb 17 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.

Don't make your problems mine.


You better make your ls the ultimate LS ever if you're gonna force such a steep penalty on your members. Just sayin...

It's hard enough to get members to bring a simple reraise item and your intro qualification is voice chat? I know you said LISTENING to voice chat but still. I'd rather your typing so I can re-read your crap instructions or something.

Also I can't screenshot your vocal abuse to post in the server forums when I leave the LS after I steal the bank or something.

I still dont want to hear voices. I mute everyone in every online game. It doesn't make me childish and in fact I mute people to avoid hearing the immaturity that comes from the "anonymity + microphone + audience" equation.
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#137 Feb 17 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
PrinnyFlute wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.


There's a variety of reasons that would tend someone towards a personal preference of just not wanting to use voice chat. They are not "childish".


Hi. Maybe you missed the qualifier...

AureliusSir wrote:
When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish.


Quote:
On the contrary, using voice chat to achieve greater efficiency in a video game is not automatically "mature" by comparison. It is a tool.

You wanna sling some mud at Seriha, go ahead, but lots of people just don't "wanna" use voice chat.


Again with the circular arguments getting old. How many of my posts in this thread have given ample leeway to people who don't want to use it? And how many of those posts have clarified what Quor has also clarified...that for most situations, even integrated voice chat is not going to become a standard or an expectation? But when it comes to endgame, large groups, potentially complex strategies, etc. and people are crying about being left out because they don't want to even listen in, there's all kinds of give on my side of the argument and all kinds of meh on theirs. "I don't want to be excluded even though I'm perfectly willing to make things that much more difficult for group leadership for no other reason than I don't 'wanna' use a feature that vastly expedites the communication process."

And the irony was that Seriha chose to bring up the JP only fiasco, which I find both disappointing and grimly mirthful. The "JP only" thing evolved in large part due to the selfish, individualistic and more or less immature behavior of the NA population that emerged in its most substantial capacity shortly after the NA PS2 release. The whole, "we want to be a part of a team as long as we don't have to act like a part of a team" had as much to do with the segregation of the NA vs. JP community as the language barrier. But when you're too arrogant and individualistic to recognize such things as collaboration in a team environment, it was easier to simply label the JP as aloof bigots and carry on, amirite? "When in Rome, wave your own flag and **** on the Coliseum" just doesn't have the same ring to it, ya know?

And the excuses and denial were just as lame then as they are around this debate. Because everyone who uses voice chat is a socially inept 12 year old who is just going to babble incessantly and make life miserable for all those fine upstanding folks who can't be bothered to toggle a mute box. And of course, if there's voice chat in any capacity there's automatically going to be an enormous rift between those who VC and those who don't for everything from teaming up for a 2 person guildleve to joining a party so you can find someone's marker on a map to meet up for a trade. Like...automatically. Srsly. Has to be. It doesn't matter in the context of this debate how many people with experience using integrated/external voice chat in MMOs have come here and said that no, VC for small groups is the exception and not the rule, people still keep arguing the same tired old sh*t that has been debunked a half dozen times. Like....HELLO!!!...open your goddam minds, read, understand, and make an INFORMED decision, not a kneejerk sniveling 12 year old might not zomfg get cookies in his lunch even though mom said they were there because he might not might not might not and the MIGHT is as bad as what would happen if he were to open his lunchbox and find only cold fried liver and freakin' onions.

Try this on for size: open a text editor and type, "Voice chat is the bane of all things good and sacred" while simultaneously saying it to yourself (out loud or in your head...doesn't matter). How many times can you say it to yourself in the time it takes you to type it. Two? Three? But no...there is no inherent benefit to voice. Better to hold a group of 12/18/32/64/whatever hostage for double/triple the necessary time to type things out than to make use of current technology to get past the communication and into the game. Or, better yet, get all brainless and sloppy like the half dozen **** poor Promyvion groups I ran with before I finally started clearing them my way...which involved simple yet detailed strategy for each encounter that was related in detail before each encounter. And the zomfg whining from people who just want to "gogogogogo fight" (mature what?) that suddenly turned into "zomfg ur liek srsly teh best party leeder evr" when, after a half dozen of their own prior failed attempts finally found themselves standing in Tavnazia...because there's no benefit to strategy in challenging group content, amirite? Just mark stuff and pray, right?

Or, keep on keeping on with that same tired old sh*t and just spare me the 'we r teh muhchur lewl' crap in future exchanges, ya?


Edited, Feb 17th 2010 8:00pm by AureliusSir
#138 Feb 17 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
Louiscool wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.

Don't make your problems mine.


You better make your ls the ultimate LS ever if you're gonna force such a steep penalty on your members. Just sayin...


Thousands upon THOUSANDS of endgame groups in other MMOs have ZERO difficulty enforcing mandatory VC sign on for endgame group activities. ZERO difficulty. As in...none. It's understood amongst the community that if you're involved in large-group endgame activity, you're using VC. Period.

Quote:
It's hard enough to get members to bring a simple reraise item and your intro qualification is voice chat?


Really? In FFXI? That mature, upstanding community jam packed with team players and strong contributors? Say it ain't so...

Quote:
I know you said LISTENING to voice chat but still. I'd rather your typing so I can re-read your crap instructions or something.


If you need medication to manage your attention span, that's between you and your relevant medical practitioner. My expectation is that people be able to sit still and pay attention for a few minutes while the strategy is reviewed (which beats the **** out of 10-15 minutes for the strategy to be typed). Either that, or you need to find a group with more casual requirements around group activities, because I don't log in to any MMO to waste time scrubbing it up with underachievers.
#139 Feb 17 2010 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll be playing FFXIV as a member of a large, multi-game guild that has its own Vent servers. Having Vent though, is not a requirement for membership, nor is it a requirement to play any game that the guild officially supports. For some endgame activities in some games, they at least ask that you be able to listen, but if not, accommodations are made. We make accommodations because we know that not everyone wants to listen to people prattle on Vent. Some people don't want to buy, or are not able to buy headsets. There are many reasons why people wouldn't be able to participate in voice chat, and if your group/guild is mature or knowledgeable, there will be ways to solve that problem. Voice chat is not the be-all and end-all of MMO gaming, but good leadership and effective communication (no matter the medium) are.

That being said, my personal opinion is that integrated voice chat is not going to be viable in FFXIV. If guilds/linkshells want to take advantage of it, they'll have to look to third-party solutions. With the game launching on different platforms globally, voice chat will be difficult, if not near-impossible to implement or be used effectively in-game. We're going to be playing with people from all around the world, and making voice a requirement in a multi-cultural guild/linkshell is just bad leadership. Sure, not everyone is going to be a member of a group like that, and will most likely be a member of a group that is centric to their language, but those groups will still exist, and voice chat would be worthless for them if everyone is speaking in different languages.

If a guild/linkshell has strong leadership and mature members, reading descriptions of events posted on the forums or elsewhere on the internet shouldn't be a problem. If it is, then that person doesn't get to raid, simple as that. You come prepared or you don't come at all. Typing out instructions doesn't take all that long either, especially if you've been typing for any amount of time. ****, a good raid leader would probably have instructions in their macros if they needed to type them out on a regular basis. There's always another way to look at things, and multiple ways to solve a problem. No matter how many other games offer integrated voice, it still is not the ultimate solution. Effective communication in any form is. A good leader knows that and will utilize any method available to make sure that their group/raid knows what needs to happen.
#140 Feb 17 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
Serielley wrote:
I'll be playing FFXIV as a member of a large, multi-game guild that has its own Vent servers. Having Vent though, is not a requirement for membership, nor is it a requirement to play any game that the guild officially supports. For some endgame activities in some games, they at least ask that you be able to listen, but if not, accommodations are made. We make accommodations because we know that not everyone wants to listen to people prattle on Vent. Some people don't want to buy, or are not able to buy headsets. There are many reasons why people wouldn't be able to participate in voice chat, and if your group/guild is mature or knowledgeable, there will be ways to solve that problem. Voice chat is not the be-all and end-all of MMO gaming, but good leadership and effective communication (no matter the medium) are.


You don't need a headset to listen. If your group is willing to accommodate people who don't want to be team players, that's your choice. It doesn't make other groups wrong for requiring VC to listen.

Quote:
That being said, my personal opinion is that integrated voice chat is not going to be viable in FFXIV. If guilds/linkshells want to take advantage of it, they'll have to look to third-party solutions. With the game launching on different platforms globally, voice chat will be difficult, if not near-impossible to implement or be used effectively in-game. We're going to be playing with people from all around the world, and making voice a requirement in a multi-cultural guild/linkshell is just bad leadership. Sure, not everyone is going to be a member of a group like that, and will most likely be a member of a group that is centric to their language, but those groups will still exist, and voice chat would be worthless for them if everyone is speaking in different languages.


Sorry, but I'm calling ******** on the multi-lingual endgame groups, because they're the extreme minority. The majority of endgame shells in FFXI were uni-lingual or, at best, had people who spoke more than one language but the LS as a whole used one language for general communication. Time zones, social preferences, and ease of communication in one's native tongue are why most people will gravitate to groups that speak their native language. That's not to say that they won't collaborate with other groups of different languages and if they DO happen to involve people who speak different languages in their day to day operations, they're doing so knowing that they're creating the requirement to use text-based auto-translate functions. It's one thing to ask someone to download and use a small, free client to listen in...it's another thing to ask someone to learn an entirely different language.
#141 Feb 17 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.


*spins it and throws it back*

Forcing someone to use voice chat, just because you "wanna" is being childish and more of an offense than someone not wanting to, just because they don't want to. A good way to make someone hate something is to force them to do it. Your posts have just spiraled down into a pile of awful.
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#142 Feb 17 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
SoiFon wrote:
Quote:
When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.


*spins it and throws it back*

Forcing someone to use voice chat, just because you "wanna" is being childish and more of an offense than someone not wanting to, just because they don't want to. A good way to make someone hate something is to force them to do it. Your posts have just spiraled down into a pile of awful.


I don't force anyone to do anything. I let them know what is required of them. If it's not to their liking, I don't taunt them and call them names and behave poorly towards them...I wish them luck in finding a group that is better suited to their wants/needs. If they were to turn around and give ME grief for requiring VC, I'd put them on ignore. Real simple stuff.
#143 Feb 17 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
SoiFon wrote:
Quote:
When your only reason for refusing to use voice chat is that you don't "wanna", you're just being childish. And it's entirely your right to be childish. And it's entirely my right to leave you free to find a group that will accommodate what you "wanna" do.


*spins it and throws it back*

Forcing someone to use voice chat, just because you "wanna" is being childish and more of an offense than someone not wanting to, just because they don't want to. A good way to make someone hate something is to force them to do it. Your posts have just spiraled down into a pile of awful.


I don't force anyone to do anything. I let them know what is required of them. If it's not to their liking, I don't taunt them and call them names and behave poorly towards them...I wish them luck in finding a group that is better suited to their wants/needs. If they were to turn around and give ME grief for requiring VC, I'd put them on ignore. Real simple stuff.


Somehow I doubt that your poor attitude here is any different from your attitude as an LS leader. Everything you post is dripping with back-handedness.

Considering I've played TONS of mmos and was never required to voice chat is a major hole in your argument. Considering you've only played 1 multi-platform MMO and only played for a very limited time, I'd say you are talking out your *** and speaking in absolutes to make your argument more convincing.

This won;t be WoW. you will not have a customizable interface with apps to install like quest finder and sh*t. It will be hard for SE to secure cross platform voice chat between 360, PS3 and PC. So I guess you'll be editing your LS entrance rules to be PC only right?

Quote:

PC players will use vent. Console players will be screwed. It won't affect the general day-to-day leveling process but come endgame you can be absolutely assured that there will be a rift between PC and console players if integrated voice chat is either not implemented or is implemented but is of poor quality such that PC players still gravitate to third party clients and servers.


Never saw this "rift" you speak of in FFXI. I wasnt even ASKED if I used skype or vent for ANY endgame activity EVER. One time a party asked me if I had it because everyone else was on the same call. That's it.

Good luck. Keep shoveling the bullsh*t, it comes straight from your mouth.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 12:41am by Louiscool
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#144 Feb 17 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Default
Louiscool wrote:
Somehow I doubt that your poor attitude here is any different from your attitude as an LS leader. Everything you post is dripping with back-handedness.


Poor attitude? Really? You're cute.

Quote:
Considering I've played TONS of mmos and was never required to voice chat is a major hole in your argument. Considering you've only played 1 multi-platform MMO and only played for a very limited time, I'd say you are talking out your *** and speaking in absolutes to make your argument more convincing.


The 3+ years I spent playing FFXI would hardly qualify as a "very limited" time. I'm not aware of too many multi-platform MMORPGs outside of FFXI.

Quote:
This won;t be WoW. you will not have a customizable interface with apps to install like quest finder and sh*t.


What has that got to do with anything?

Quote:
It will be hard for SE to secure cross platform voice chat between 360, PS3 and PC. So I guess you'll be editing your LS entrance rules to be PC only right?


Depends on the nature of the content. Possibly. And I think SE knows that the lack of cross-platform VC would create those kinds of situations, hence why they're concerned that they might not be able to make it work.

Quote:
Good luck. Keep shoveling the bullsh*t, it comes straight from your mouth.


Cry moar, k?
#145 Feb 17 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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So, the text-only crowd are inept, sniveling jerk-offs now?

Look, you tried to validate the presence of voice through the fact we use it commonly in reality. And it's all well and good for that random, social element if you wish to seek it out. Conversely, I'd argue we're all capable of reading if we're playing an MMO. Some faster than others, yes, and this also applies to typing. Additionally, text doesn't carry with it an accent or other physical or lingual dispositions even if restricting yourself to one language. I say pop instead of soda. I tend to drop the g on -ing words. I've even been told I have a bit of a twang even though I vehemently disagree. So, whether you talk like you're from Fargo, Boston, Texas, or Miami, some people will need to adjust. Some might not always be able to because we don't sit there and recite dictionaries to each other just to play, "Can you hear me now?" the sequel.

Yet, I'm childish due to personal preference (privacy, maturity, etc., take your pick) or literal need to keep my aural sense unfettered because things going at home are far more important than slaying digital dragons. I live in an old home. Sometimes I have to run downstairs to put the washing machine back on track. Sometimes I hear my dog getting into **** he shouldn't be. Sometimes the breaker in the kitchen pops and I have to go reset it. Sometimes I'm babysitting my nieces and nephew. Sometimes I just wanna listen to the frickin' news.

Those brief, sometimes longer, AFKs may be reason enough to declare I'm holding something back, but I'm also grown up enough to extend the same luxury to others and accept occasionally missing out on things if I do have to suddenly go. Me not listening to voice chat, me not sitting through a leader's spiel for the dozenth time with a new member, me taking and wanting as much info on an event before diving in, is not holding people back. Yes, I will rag on any leader that opts to use voice exclusively for prep. Too much room for error there unless they're reading from a script (lol?). Throw in game add-ons or windower plug-ins and half the time the so-called difficulty of encounters is lost, anyway. And unless you get utterly decimated by an event, people are only virgins once. Even then, you have bigger issues on your hands than relaying commands.

I will thank you, Aur, for representing my fear. I mentioned people claiming it standard. You backed it up. I said people have and will exclude others who won't. You said you'd do the same because, by your own admission, you believe you'll be held back. I'm not the one looking to segregate people with this. In that vein, I simply believe mandatory voice/listening policies are wrong. Even as opt-in, there's still pressure and your present opinion we have to contend with.
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#146 Feb 18 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mmmmmm.

I suppose I'm siding with Aurelius, even though I don't care for his tone. It's a game, afterall, your both free to do as you please. Your free to live out your days typing, he's free to exclude people from his endgame shell for not liking the color purple.

You don't have to like his view to recognize his right.


Edited, Feb 18th 2010 1:11am by Zemzelette
#147 Feb 18 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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If I'm gonna be declared a second class MMO citizen, let it be because I suck at the game or something.

Ultimately, it's their loss, but I guess part of the responsibility lies with SE to not promote this behavior, either directly with actual voice content or with the events themselves being so make or break. Repetition will eventually numb the "need" for them.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 1:44am by Seriha
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#148 Feb 18 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's a little early to be getting concerned over the mindset of a fanbase that hasn't even finished forming. :)
Even if you wanted to extrapolate your future from the postings in this thread, there's far more warm bodies siding with your perspective.

However SE wants to go with the voicechat, I really wouldn't worry about it.


Edited, Feb 18th 2010 1:51am by Zemzelette
#149 Feb 18 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
So, the text-only crowd are inept, sniveling jerk-offs now?


Is that what you think? I know it's not what I said, so it must be coming from you.

Quote:
Look, you tried to validate the presence of voice through the fact we use it commonly in reality. And it's all well and good for that random, social element if you wish to seek it out. Conversely, I'd argue we're all capable of reading if we're playing an MMO. Some faster than others, yes, and this also applies to typing. Additionally, text doesn't carry with it an accent or other physical or lingual dispositions even if restricting yourself to one language. I say pop instead of soda. I tend to drop the g on -ing words. I've even been told I have a bit of a twang even though I vehemently disagree. So, whether you talk like you're from Fargo, Boston, Texas, or Miami, some people will need to adjust. Some might not always be able to because we don't sit there and recite dictionaries to each other just to play, "Can you hear me now?" the sequel.


So you're insecure about your dialect? I'm Canadian. I get a a kick out of southern American accents. I make fun of my own dialect whenever one of my American neighbors brings it up. It's good times. I've never had difficulty understanding an American, French Canadian, or eastern Canadian dialect. I've done end-game in guilds with English speaking Mexicans and Puerto Ricans and never had a problem understanding them. Maybe some people do. If they do, I wouldn't say it makes them stupid or lacking, just maybe that they need to invest more time listening so that they get a feel for the different pronunciations and inflections.

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Yet, I'm childish due to personal preference (privacy, maturity, etc., take your pick) or literal need to keep my aural sense unfettered because things going at home are far more important than slaying digital dragons. I live in an old home. Sometimes I have to run downstairs to put the washing machine back on track. Sometimes I hear my dog getting into sh*t he shouldn't be. Sometimes the breaker in the kitchen pops and I have to go reset it. Sometimes I'm babysitting my nieces and nephew. Sometimes I just wanna listen to the frickin' news.


So you're of the impression that using voice chat means you have to have the volume cranked such that hearing anything other than the VC channel is an impossibility? I'd say try turning down the volume so that you can hear it but also hear other things if you need to so that you can attend to what needs attending in your home and still be able to receive critical information about what's going on in the group you chose to join. That's why I look at your reasoning as not more than a bunch of thinly veiled rationalizations to mask your general discomfort. It's also why I've given you all kinds of space to hold an opinion about VC until you decided that the best way to get your point across was to take shots at the people who make use of VC as a mainstay in MMORPG large-group communication.

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Those brief, sometimes longer, AFKs may be reason enough to declare I'm holding something back, but I'm also grown up enough to extend the same luxury to others and accept occasionally missing out on things if I do have to suddenly go.


Reasonable people make generous allowances for RL intrusions because they're unavoidable in most cases. I'm not so sure I'd want someone around who was so obsessed with the game that they'd ignore higher priority things going on around them for the sake of remaining glued in their chair. Even the most dedicated but reasonable person is going to get an important phonecall or be distracted by someone or something in their home from time to time. Unavoidable is unavoidable. That has no bearing in the viability or non-viability of voice chat other than the minor benefit of being able to scroll up after an AFK to check something you may have missed. You know how that's avoided in a VC scenario? Take those well-honed typing skills and put them into good use by typing, "afk brb" in the group text channel before bolting from your chair. That's just a general courtesy that takes all of a couple of seconds to do, meaning unless your niece or nephew bleeding profusely or is on fire, you have no real excuse not to. When you get back, you announce your return and it will usually take all of 10-15 seconds to give you the abbreviated version of your particular role. Problem solved.

But my sense is that you're not interested in solutions. Solutions to your excuses would mean you'd have to acknowledge what they are...excuses...and then you'd be left with not but a personal preference. Which I would respect, regardless of your reasoning...I just wouldn't be jumping at the opportunity to involve you in large group content should we wind up crossing paths in FFXIV.

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Me not listening to voice chat, me not sitting through a leader's spiel for the dozenth time with a new member, me taking and wanting as much info on an event before diving in, is not holding people back.


Forcing the leader to type out the spiel for the newcomer is better than expediting the process with VC is better how, exactly?

Forget VC for a second. If you're in an endgame group that I'm responsible for leading and you're complaining about time spent reviewing strategy, I'd suggest that you sit tight and endure it or leave. If you're fine with just diving in and having people learn on the fly, either the game you're playing is disturbingly simple, you're sharing a group with world-class players, or you simply need to accept that a great many people prefer to invest a little extra time setting themselves up for success by getting everyone on the same page. Not every group is going to follow a strategy pulled from the web to the letter. Good leaders who know their groups will tweak and adjust to suit the strengths and weaknesses of a group.

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Yes, I will rag on any leader that opts to use voice exclusively for prep. Too much room for error there unless they're reading from a script (lol?).


And that room for error is lessened by typing how, exactly?

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Throw in game add-ons or windower plug-ins and half the time the so-called difficulty of encounters is lost, anyway. And unless you get utterly decimated by an event, people are only virgins once. Even then, you have bigger issues on your hands than relaying commands.


If the game is so ludicrously easy that groups comprised of Joe Average type players are learning on the fly and downing content without a refined strategy, that's unfortunate. You can downplay the benefits of group strategy all you want. Many people will disagree with you.

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I will thank you, Aur, for representing my fear. I mentioned people claiming it standard. You backed it up. I said people have and will exclude others who won't. You said you'd do the same because, by your own admission, you believe you'll be held back. I'm not the one looking to segregate people with this. In that vein, I simply believe mandatory voice/listening policies are wrong. Even as opt-in, there's still pressure and your present opinion we have to contend with.


A standard for large group endgame, yes. Small groups, low-mid level content, etc...not at all. I'm sorry you apparently have so little respect for the people you share the content with that listening to the news is more important than contributing as best you can. I'm sorry that adjusting volume settings is such an onerous task for you that all you can hear is the VC and nothing else in your home. I'm not looking to segregate people...I'm just saying that I'm not willing to hold the entire group hostage for longer than necessary to accommodate the people who can't be bothered to work with the group instead of playing as an individual within it. True team play requires communication, and forgoing the best available method of efficient communication in favor of people who want to preserve an anti-social bubble doesn't appeal to me. The world must be an extraordinarily irritating place for you if the voices of strangers arouses such anxiety.
#150 Feb 18 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And the irony was that Seriha chose to bring up the JP only fiasco, which I find both disappointing and grimly mirthful. The "JP only" thing evolved in large part due to the selfish, individualistic and more or less immature behavior of the NA population that emerged in its most substantial capacity shortly after the NA PS2 release. The whole, "we want to be a part of a team as long as we don't have to act like a part of a team" had as much to do with the segregation of the NA vs. JP community as the language barrier. But when you're too arrogant and individualistic to recognize such things as collaboration in a team environment, it was easier to simply label the JP as aloof bigots and carry on, amirite? "When in Rome, wave your own flag and **** on the Coliseum" just doesn't have the same ring to it, ya know?


this, this, a thousand times this.

as a player who started within a week or two after the initial NA release on PC, i can attest that, on bahamut (probably the most well known server) the JP/NA relations were initially quite cordial. in fact, it was fairly common for a number of higher level JP players to accompany NA players on a number of quests (adv. jobs, rank missions etc.) as long as they were asked nicely. naturally it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch, and within a few short months i could tell that the number of JP's will to help out of the goodness of their hearts had drastically declined. i was probably one of the few non-JP speaking NA's that some JP's would party with, because i had a reputation of being almost too polite in my interactions with them (playing a warrior in a day when warriors were **** on left and right also helped, as the JP still held the class in high regard).

the point of this (and of what aurelius has touched on a number of times) is the complete aversion some people have to sacrificing even a single iota of their precious "individualism". the very idea of voice chat even being in the game is, to some people, an attack on their preferred method of communication. SE will have to pry my right to type from my cold dead fingers!

only they wont, because theyre not trying to keep you from typing. theyre trying to keep up with the current generation of MMO's, and the evolution of encounters and gaming is such that voice chat is a necessity now. so, like a good company, SE is trying to cater to their customer base and the needs/wants they have. which is also why theyll likely have a "toggle" switch that will enable or disable voice chat, for those that prefer not to hear/talk.

but the fact remains, for the bleeding edge of content, voice chat is going to be necessary. its impossible to react to something quickly while youre in the middle of typing out a sentence, and even single words can be the difference between life and death. just as a boon to multi-tasking voice chat helps, and the current trend of end game large group content is to provide challenges that require quick thinking and action, neither of which are conducive towards taking even a second or two to type out a single four or five letter word.

so SE, as a good company, will likely accomodate those situations with some kind of in-game voice chat. they will likely make it an optional thing, controlled by the user, so you dont have to hear things you dont want to hear, or talk to people you dont want to talk too. and in all likelihood, SE will also incorporate a number of activities outside of large group raiding that will let people enjoy end game without having to resort to something that requires voice chat (think the daily quests and heroic dungeons of WoW, or casual pvp).

it seems that those in this thread who are averse to the idea of voice chat are simply afraid of change being forced upon them. thats just bad business practice. its change, yes, but optional change for all but a small portion of the content, and even that portion will likely have accomodations for those who dont wish to use voice.
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#151 Feb 18 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Good leaders who know their groups will tweak and adjust to suit the strengths and weaknesses of a group.


This. I really cant count haw many times I wished that I could update my group or reform our strategy , or give a direct comment base on the situation at hands but couldn’t (many reasons ex. kiting link , crowed control etc) and even if I was using vent, then there will be the risk of missing PS2/Xbox users and having to retype things thus wasting more time.

Vent worked perfect for my nyzul group , not everyone using a mic and talk but our leader make sure to redirect us whenever needed , something simple as floor objective , lamps orders , "almost done with this floor so Fala Flee!" were common , sure it could be typed but not while doing something else.

Not having an integrated VC will segregate PS3/PC/Xbox users as each will use different tool anyway.

One thing about EG leader: I doubt most leaders give whatever speech pre-event to annoy members as they can easily kick you out and you can easily look up another EG LS. ****, I used to feel that I was wasting my time writing/linking strategies for any upcoming event for 2 weeks earlier as there were hardly anyone checking anything but points and bid list. It more to get things done and to advance as a shell. lose -> no drop -> not so happy members.

Add it as an option~
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