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Possibility of Voice Chat? No thanks.Follow

#152 Feb 18 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Forcing the leader to type out the spiel for the newcomer is better than expediting the process with VC is better how, exactly?


When I infer to prep work, I don't mean 10 minutes before you're going in. You only need to type your group's preferred strategy once. Maybe you'll have to go and revise things now and then as discoveries are made by your group or others (possibly even criticisms), but such being super drastic performance increases might be, I dare say, rare. I assume you'll be having an app process. In turn, there's also approval. When you tell the guy, "Hey, you're in." just add a "Now, go read this..." That's where my crack at being a good minion came in. You'll find out one way or the other if they can follow directions. Bonus points if you can add pictures.

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Forget VC for a second. If you're in an endgame group that I'm responsible for leading and you're complaining about time spent reviewing strategy, I'd suggest that you sit tight and endure it or leave. If you're fine with just diving in and having people learn on the fly, either the game you're playing is disturbingly simple, you're sharing a group with world-class players, or you simply need to accept that a great many people prefer to invest a little extra time setting themselves up for success by getting everyone on the same page. Not every group is going to follow a strategy pulled from the web to the letter. Good leaders who know their groups will tweak and adjust to suit the strengths and weaknesses of a group.


My point with instruction was you're not accomplishing anything different. Cumulatively, you're using up more time in the long run voicing every time than just writing up a post or guide for those to browse at their leisure. If I'm living in an anti-social bubble, then I also find your lack of faith in those you're leading disheartening. This is basically a rehash of my point on personal job/class knowledge and status assessment comes into play. You want to be able to crack the whip faster when they fall out of line. I'm not expecting perfection, either, but to be honest, a good leader has people trained on how to react before they even have to tell them.

At which point does it change from being a tool to ease the leading process to compensating for a leader's inability to plan ahead? Are we overestimating MMO difficulty? Underestimating the people we run with? Both? I could add more questions, and they'd possibly even cross the line into flame bait, but your pros have yet to outweigh my cons, no matter how much you downplay their presence or paint me the social miscreant.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 7:19am by Seriha
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#153 Feb 18 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I still think excluding people based on voice chat is extremely silly. That said, as long as it would still come through my tv or laptop speakers, I'm not gonna go out of my way to turn it off when doing some endgame activity unless it's filled with the usual nonsensical spam that I'm accustomed to in a Dynamis shell where half the group is bored waiting for the next sac pull and just bombarding the chat log with lines of text.
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#154 Feb 18 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Falasi wrote:
Vent worked perfect for my nyzul group , not everyone using a mic and talk but our leader make sure to redirect us whenever needed , something simple as floor objective , lamps orders , "almost done with this floor so Fala Flee!" were common , sure it could be typed but not while doing something else.

Not that I can't imagine a situation where voice chat would be helpful, but this is a bad example.. Your THF should know before you enter that they should be using Flee to get to the rune when the floor is nearly done. If they have no clue when the floor is almost complete, you have bigger problems considering they're a static member and not some random pick-up.

Edit - also, say for whatever reason you do have to tell the person to run to the rune. Do I really want to hear you say that 20 times if the group does four runs? After the third time I'd probably turn the chat off, figuring '***** it,' this is annoying. That goes for every piece of information that people should already know, or could very easily recieve (like knowing the floor objective). Voice chat should be for something the other players won't easily know, and during something intense where you don't want to spend time typing it out as it'd negatively effect what you're doing. Anything else is NOT an improvement over text chat / planning before the event. In fact, it very well may be worse if someone doesn't speak clearly / considering different accents.

If the people just prefer verbal communication, that's a different story. Perhaps you should recruit people who "like to talk."

As far as lamp orders, I'd rather that be typed out. If you're relying on one person to verbally spit it out, you could get... "Okay Person A -> B -> C -> D -> E.." "Now B -> C -> D -> A -> E.." "...Now C -> B -> ... Uhhh"..

..And the person is lost, with nothing written down on what they tried before for reference. I know that I recheck the /p chat on what the attempted orders have been, and it works swimmingly.


Ultimately for me, even if everyone loved talking to eachother all the time, I would never consider making or joining a LS that only allowed people who would listen in on voice chat, as it would exclude roughly half the people in the game.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 11:46am by Carrilei
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#155 Feb 18 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Quote:
Forcing the leader to type out the spiel for the newcomer is better than expediting the process with VC is better how, exactly?


When I infer to prep work, I don't mean 10 minutes before you're going in. You only need to type your group's preferred strategy once. Maybe you'll have to go and revise things now and then as discoveries are made by your group or others (possibly even criticisms), but such being super drastic performance increases might be, I dare say, rare. I assume you'll be having an app process. In turn, there's also approval. When you tell the guy, "Hey, you're in." just add a "Now, go read this..." That's where my crack at being a good minion came in. You'll find out one way or the other if they can follow directions. Bonus points if you can add pictures.


In a perfect world everyone would do their homework. In reality, most don't. This has held true throughout my time playing FFXI as well as through my time playing WoW.

In a complex encounter, things tend to deviate from plan. People need reminders or direction is beneficial in dealing with unforeseen circumstances to prevent having a half dozen people tripping over one another trying to respond to a situation that would require the attention of only one or two people.

Quote:
My point with instruction was you're not accomplishing anything different. Cumulatively, you're using up more time in the long run voicing every time than just writing up a post or guide for those to browse at their leisure. If I'm living in an anti-social bubble, then I also find your lack of faith in those you're leading disheartening. This is basically a rehash of my point on personal job/class knowledge and status assessment comes into play. You want to be able to crack the whip faster when they fall out of line. I'm not expecting perfection, either, but to be honest, a good leader has people trained on how to react before they even have to tell them.


I've played in top 10% worldwide guilds in WoW and voice chat was still an enormous benefit in keeping complex encounters on track. Idealism doesn't down bosses; communication, teamwork, and a certain level of skill with the game does. My "lack of faith" is derived from hundreds of hours of experience.

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At which point does it change from being a tool to ease the leading process to compensating for a leader's inability to plan ahead? Are we overestimating MMO difficulty? Underestimating the people we run with? Both? I could add more questions, and they'd possibly even cross the line into flame bait, but your pros have yet to outweigh my cons, no matter how much you downplay their presence or paint me the social miscreant.


You can't plan for everything. If you think you can, you're mistaken. The larger the group, the greater the margin for error. Take a look at this encounter and tell me if you think it's realistic to expect 25 people to function cohesively from start to finish without a nudge here or a reminder there. If you've ever been in a large group where instructions have come via text mid-fight to adjust, remind, or account for a deviation from plan, the same thing could have been done via voice only faster. And if your melee in FFXIV (to include your tank) are queuing abilities every 1.5-3.5 seconds to account for the lack of auto-attack, those people aren't going to be typing anything in any detail without sacrificing performance to do so.

Idealism and what should be will only carry an argument so far. Eventually, you have to address what is, which is an approach that your argument can't sustain.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 8:41am by AureliusSir
#156 Feb 18 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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I personally dislike the idea to be in the need of voice-chat to accomplish encounters and my reasons for this are similar to what Seriha described.

My 1st encounter with teamspeak during end-game events was in sky, farming pop-items and doing guards and Kirin. Instructions were given out mixed in LS-chat and teamspeak. The orders given over LS-chat were pretty clear, the orders given over teamspeak were a big disaster because the accent of the english LS-leader were part time hard to understand and having people from all over europe did not help that situation either. In short, written orders were understood, spoken orders were not.

The next encounter with Teamspeak was in WoW with the guild I was in. Our biggest raid content to that point (pre BC) was Zul Gurub, the 20-man raid instance in Stranglethorn and the consequence of giving orders primary over teamspeak was infact that half of the peeps did not learn the encounters, only thing they did learn was to follow instructions.

My other encounter with voice-chat was in LotRO, the excuse used to lure people in using voice-chat was "cause if the healer gets aggro he will be dead till he wrote it out". I am so keen to say in that event that healer will be dead before he can say "I got aggro" over voice-chat. The other time I used teamspeak in LotRO was mostly allways when I was playing together with 2 RL-friends.

My idea about teamspeak, like I wrote in the other thread is that success in encounters comes from people paying attention, people being prepared, people knowing and understanding what will go on.
If someone is not paying attention to explainations given over text-chat they will not really listen to instructions over voice-chat.

Voicechat is a nice addition for socializing but at the moment it becomes a requirement to have success in any in-game event something smells fishy and its not those who dislike voicechat.
For me the "you need to come on voicechat"-thing comes from lack of preperation from members (including leaders).

I need to admit I had some funny times while using voicechat but at those times we never had something going on where a wipe would have cost us hours of hours to restart.

Another thing, I am used to put a lot of concentration into "whats going on" during events and judging "what would be the best to do" for success for the whole group, even when its out of the "norm". That lead me and other DD's to kite statues in Dynamis - Beaucedine changing a full wipe into a semi-wipe, the rest of the mobs got killed and before the next pull our tanks where unweakened again and we went on. If we would have needed to wait for the run-leader to tell, regardless of typing or voice-chat, it would have been a full wipe.

And to be honest, you can choose to put your concentration on whats going on by looking at the screen and reading chatlog or put all your concentration on waiting for orders.
I am pretty sure it takes away some stress from leaders when they know people will act when something happens that wasn't planed, opposing I think it puts stress on leaders when they know everyone is waiting for them to act and call out stuff to do when **** hits the fan.

Just my 2 cents and sorry for lots of text.

Cheers,
Fro
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#157 Feb 18 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
frodito wrote:
Voicechat is a nice addition for socializing but at the moment it becomes a requirement to have success in any in-game event something smells fishy and its not those who dislike voicechat.


When you're participating in content where nasty things (aka environmental hazards) can appear under your feet and cause you to die in a matter of a couple of seconds if you don't respond, regularly having to shift your attention from the immediate vicinity of your character for any length of time can be disastrous. When I played FFXI, there were no environmental hazards. There was also ample time between the use of abilities for most classes to be able to type out information. Not so in other MMOs, and not likely to be so in FFXIV if standard attacks have to be manually queued. Even as an RNG in FFXI, having to type more than a word or two at a time came at the expense of performance. Now put all of your melee in that boat and one person's aversion to voice chat forcing everyone to communicate via text means your entire melee squad has their in-fight communication options severely restricted. Poor approach. Poor justification for a poor approach. Short sighted. Narrow minded. Not good.

Quote:
For me the "you need to come on voicechat"-thing comes from lack of preperation from members (including leaders).


You're flat out wrong. I've run endgame content in WoW with very experienced, dedicated leaders who would spend hours every week reviewing encounter details and formulating strategies tailored to their particular groups.

Quote:
And to be honest, you can choose to put your concentration on whats going on by looking at the screen and reading chatlog or put all your concentration on waiting for orders.
I am pretty sure it takes away some stress from leaders when they know people will act when something happens that wasn't planed, opposing I think it puts stress on leaders when they know everyone is waiting for them to act and call out stuff to do when **** hits the fan.


The option to communicate quickly without sacrificing performance is an enormously valuable backup plan. In an ideal scenario, the situation-gone-wrong is dealt with without any intervention whatsoever. Counting on the "ideal situation every time is poor planning.
#158 Feb 18 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I've played in top 10% worldwide guilds in WoW and voice chat was still an enormous benefit in keeping complex encounters on track. Idealism doesn't down bosses; communication, teamwork, and a certain level of skill with the game does. My "lack of faith" is derived from hundreds of hours of experience.


Just that communication isn't limited to speach.

From my experience, written information got some nice points that spoken information does not. If you write something down you think more about the information you want to pass onto others, you can review it, others can have look over it, you can edit it when new information needs to be worked in.

I am sorry but the times I was "forced to use teamspeak" to prevend a wipe, the wipes allways happened.
Zul Gurub (pre BC, 7-8 random people, noone having T1 or higher) 3 wipes in a row on Hakkar, one after another and the wipes happening cause of stupid reasons.
And then something funny happened on the 4th try, we won. The big difference to the other 3 tries was that it was absolutely silent on voicechat, everyone concentrated on the fight and noone waiting on instructions, on what to do, etc.
We had a little break between the 3 wipes and the success and in that break from about 15-20 minutes most people went to the guild-forum and were reading the post about the strat.

One of my experiences with "voice-chat".

Cheers,
Fro
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#159 Feb 18 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
frodito wrote:
Just that communication isn't limited to speach.


Speech during encounters in progress is more effective in the vast majority of cases because

a) It's faster than text.
b) If you're looking at the middle/top of your screen, you still hear it.

Speech for pre-encounter strategy reviews is typically faster and more efficient. There's still benefit for some information to be conveyed by text, but those situations are the exception and not the rule.

If you want to argue those points, perhaps you can also try to convince me that oranges are actually blue. You'll have about as much success.
#160 Feb 18 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
frodito wrote:
Just that communication isn't limited to speach.


Speech during encounters in progress is more effective in the vast majority of cases because

a) It's faster than text.
b) If you're looking at the middle/top of your screen, you still hear it.

Speech for pre-encounter strategy reviews is typically faster and more efficient. There's still benefit for some information to be conveyed by text, but those situations are the exception and not the rule.

If you want to argue those points, perhaps you can also try to convince me that oranges are actually blue. You'll have about as much success.


You only get a lasting pre-encounter strategy when you do that over a forum, questions and answers are kept and can get compiled into the strategy for your group, IMHO thats more effectiv and more efficient then talking it out over voicechat.

In my experience:
For encounters in progress its most effective and efficient when people know their role and what their choosen job/class can do. If you really need voice-chat to prevent a wipe in such situations, the wipe happens because of lack of preperations and people not paying attention.

And btw, I am not trying to convince anyone about anything, I am just presenting my thoughts about voice-chat and writing down my experience with it to discussion-board.
It should be more about pro and cons about the subject and less about "you need to change your thought about this because..."

In the end it comes to personal preferences, you like to use voice-chat, great. I do not like it, thats all.

Cheers,
Fro
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#161 Feb 18 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Guess the hundreds of hours I spent in XI's endgame don't mean a whole lot, nor the fact I was in probably one of Fairy's longest running LSes before I canceled my IDs. Being the best or telling people I am has never been my thing, though. I just go in, do my thing, and get out. I've gotten loot. They've gotten loot. All that matters in the end, really.

Oftentimes when we got Lambton Worm, I was the one who volunteered to navigate people away after the draw-in once its damage absorption kicked in since there's no visual hint. Wasn't hard to do. Hit a button with some waits in it, prompting people when the countdown was at 30s, 10s, and finally when they should disengage.

In terms of environmental hazards, the Diabolos fight springs to mind here. If you don't pay attention to the tiles and his health, you're diremite food. Additionally, hazards around various HNMs can take the form of local aggro. Tiamat's a big one here with Corse at night (Xloltl or however the **** you spell it, too), air elementals, and the occasional bomb. Might even get rival LSes trying to MPK you by forcing flails and whatnot, too. I won't deny that a lot of XI's are rather uninspiring, though. Blame it on an aged game, uninspired devs, PS2 limitations, or even lacking budgets. I dunno, there.

Simply put, communication before, during, and after an event has never really suffered for me. You can emphasize speed all you want and imply a loss of auto-attack will **** us all in XIV, but I could counter that by saying damage and ability timers can be adjusted to still easily allow typing between moves while still being useful in the fight. Even having to hit a macro every time on my RNG to shoot, I still found time to chat even with pulling between fights, too. So, I really doubt I'm some kind of supergirl here.
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#162 Feb 18 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure, not everyone is going to be a member of a group like that, and will most likely be a member of a group that is centric to their language, but those groups will still exist, and voice chat would be worthless for them if everyone is speaking in different languages.
I play with japanese, french, and english players on a regular basis and particularly for japanese it's -much- easier to communicate on vent than text. Auto-translate is nice, but it's just not comprehensive enough to communicate everything and you don't get any "tone" clues.

Aur wrote:
Speech during encounters in progress is more effective in the vast majority of cases because

a) It's faster than text.
b) If you're looking at the middle/top of your screen, you still hear it.

Speech for pre-encounter strategy reviews is typically faster and more efficient. There's still benefit for some information to be conveyed by text, but those situations are the exception and not the rule.
I need you guys to quit making me agree with aur. A little piece of me dies every time it happens. Voice chat is especially useful in lowman events like limbus/Nyz/salvage/assualt/etc. Even when everyone knows what they're doing and pays attention, unexpected events still happen and everything just flows quicker and smoother when you can hear someone call out a warning and you don't have to pay attention to text.

Also, adding voice chat doesn't mean you still can't use text if you need/want to. It just gives other people a useful tool if they want to utilize it. If you want to run a LS that does things w/o voice chat, then do it. Adding voice chat doesn't mean you're going to be treated like a second class citizen, as given by the obvious example that people already use voice chat (vent/skype/etc) and you don't feel like that. We just want to be able to continue doing so w/o the added hassle for console users.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 2:04pm by shintasama
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#163 Feb 18 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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I think ppl in favor of voice chat are not taking in consideration the language barriers of an international game, as opposed to a more north american or just english speaking centralized game. Agreed voice > chat for leadership roles and for faster communication all around; but a near perfect harmony of
1. limited conversation related solely to the task at hand.
2. Everyone shares the same language enough so to effectively communicate.
3. no disrespect ( the dissing racisim sexual passes etc category)

Now. realistically the chances of such a harmonious event is quite low.
Not so much because of a mature vs immature fan base but because we are all people of different backrounds lifestyles and social circles. What is disrespectful or rude to one might not be to the other.
Then there is the cultural boudaries. I have traveled alot and there are things that are explicit in nature in some countries that are deemed acceptable in others.
I am a fan of fps voice but thats another dish lets not venture there its a different mission and game type entirely.

back to FFXIV and the speculation of voice: Since we agreed on the effectiveness of voice in a harmonious setting and agree its rendered much less effective factoring in certain details that are produced quite commonly in a party or event grouping, I beleive its safe to say voice is a double edged sword and sticking to chat is safer, proven effective, and familiar to the ffxi community (which SE is aiming FFXIV for anyway).
Sure if SE finds a way to incorporate both by all means it would be fantastic.
But truth be told SE will lose a considerable portion of the FFXI fanbase due to the fact not everyone wants likes or would rather not put up with the pressure in end game scenarios to use voice chat.
most of the arguments pro and con and neutral I have read are pretty substantial.
Catering to all is impossible there is and can be no perfect game.
All we can do is wait and hope for whatever we were in favor of will be at least the dominant method of communication for the duration of the life of FFXIV.


Edited, Feb 18th 2010 2:20pm by goblinpimp
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#164 Feb 18 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
Seriha wrote:
Guess the hundreds of hours I spent in XI's endgame don't mean a whole lot, nor the fact I was in probably one of Fairy's longest running LSes before I canceled my IDs. Being the best or telling people I am has never been my thing, though. I just go in, do my thing, and get out. I've gotten loot. They've gotten loot. All that matters in the end, really.

Oftentimes when we got Lambton Worm, I was the one who volunteered to navigate people away after the draw-in once its damage absorption kicked in since there's no visual hint. Wasn't hard to do. Hit a button with some waits in it, prompting people when the countdown was at 30s, 10s, and finally when they should disengage.

In terms of environmental hazards, the Diabolos fight springs to mind here. If you don't pay attention to the tiles and his health, you're diremite food. Additionally, hazards around various HNMs can take the form of local aggro. Tiamat's a big one here with Corse at night (Xloltl or however the @#%^ you spell it, too), air elementals, and the occasional bomb. Might even get rival LSes trying to MPK you by forcing flails and whatnot, too. I won't deny that a lot of XI's are rather uninspiring, though. Blame it on an aged game, uninspired devs, PS2 limitations, or even lacking budgets. I dunno, there.

Simply put, communication before, during, and after an event has never really suffered for me. You can emphasize speed all you want and imply a loss of auto-attack will **** us all in XIV, but I could counter that by saying damage and ability timers can be adjusted to still easily allow typing between moves while still being useful in the fight. Even having to hit a macro every time on my RNG to shoot, I still found time to chat even with pulling between fights, too. So, I really doubt I'm some kind of supergirl here.



What people seem to be forgetting is that Raids were going on long before voice chat became popular. Somehow (as Seriha points out), people miraculously seemed to still do well in spite of the evidently major weakness of not being able to communicate over voice. I'm gonna throw in my hundreds of hours into the pool here too of using text to communicate and you know... my groups always seemed to do just fine as well.

I get what Aurelius is trying to say, even though he is being a sarcastic, downright elitist *** about it... Voice chat can be an effective tool. But any leader worth a **** will be able to organize and communicate his/her/their plans for large events MUCH sooner with something like an ahead-of-time post than a long winded explanation over voice just before the event. It's been done this way for a long time... it has worked. It still works. Voice chat is not an absolute move have. And who says only one leader of the guild can throw out on the fly text instructions anyway?

Will there be people who wont bother to read said post or prepare properly? Sure there will, and those with such habits will eventually be weeded out. Will there be an equal (possibly greater due to mute/low volume/at-that-moment RL things coming up) amount of people who dont or wont get the voice instructions? You bet there will. It all comes down to effective organization and leadership. If that's a constant than the variables of half assed players can and will be dealt with.

And honestly... The points brought up earlier about people just not liking voice communication in their MMO being childish is ridiculous. I'm sure nobody here is just throwing a 5yo tantrum and saying NO NO NO!!!! People have their reasons. Nobody owes anybody on an internet forum justification for their opinions. All you forum warriors out there need to chill the **** out. Seriha brought up perfectly good explanations earlier for the dislike of VC. I myself like to sometimes have internet radio going in the background, or a fave TV show or movie, or have to keep an ear out for RL things popping up. The list goes on but the point is, a lot of people 1. don't enjoy VC in their MMO and 2. Get a long/ have gotten along for years just fine without it.

Oh and... RNG attack, pulling, AND chatting between pulls? .... A WITCH!! Smiley: laugh
#165 Feb 18 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
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If the only factor in play is the success and ability of the LS (which I disagree with, but just for argument's sake..), I'll take a LS with optional voice chat participation which allows players who speak different languages over an English-only all voice chat LS any day of the week.

You've got a larger pool of talent to pull from, and most likely they'll have a wider range of available ingame playtime.
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#166 Feb 18 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Oh and... RNG attack, pulling, AND chatting between pulls? .... A WITCH!! Smiley: laugh


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#167 Feb 18 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think ppl in favor of voice chat are not taking in consideration the language barriers of an international game, as opposed to a more north american or just english speaking centralized game. Agreed voice > chat for leadership roles and for faster communication all around; but a near perfect harmony of
1. limited conversation related solely to the task at hand.
2. Everyone shares the same language enough so to effectively communicate.
3. no disrespect ( the dissing racisim sexual passes etc category)

Now. realistically the chances of such a harmonious event is quite low.
Not so much because of a mature vs immature fan base but because we are all people of different backrounds lifestyles and social circles. What is disrespectful or rude to one might not be to the other.
Then there is the cultural boudaries. I have traveled alot and there are things that are explicit in nature in some countries that are deemed acceptable in others.
I love that you pretend those issues are "fixed" by not having voice chat.
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#168 Feb 18 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
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Not that I can't imagine a situation where voice chat would be helpful, but this is a bad example.. Your THF should know before you enter that they should be using Flee to get to the rune when the floor is nearly done. If they have no clue when the floor is almost complete, you have bigger problems considering they're a static member and not some random pick-up.


Voice chat breeds bad players from my experience. People get too lax, forget their jobs and only act when barked at. I did PSO on the xbox which was 100% voice chat and outside of 2-3 friends everyone was awful. You had to yell at them to get out of the way of this or that and half the time they didn't even do it. In WoW it was similar with vent. People stood in bad things and died until they got yelled at. Maybe I'm getting too old and thing mmos are getting too casual friendly.
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#169 Feb 18 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with several previous posters, sometimes I don't feel like being on VC or hearing others talking for that matter. But the fact of the matter is that noone is going to force me into using VC. I mean, people act like they are gonna be excluded for not wanting to use VC, but are you excluded now because you don't want to use Skype/Teamspeak/Vent? There are many LSs/WoW guilds out there that require VC to be used during events, but there are SO many that don't and if I don't want to use VC then I just hang with people that are like me.

There are so many aspects of an mmo- and so many different types of people, and generally people tend to move towards the people that are like themselves. I don't see why this would be any different. It is not like having VC means there is no way of typing, both options are still present, and both are still going to be used.

I do not see any reason why half the population should have to go through what can be a hassle running third party programs, that may or may not make the game run slower depending on your system specs(Although I guess this is becoming less of a problem as computers are getting better). Not to mention if you are on console without access to a comp you don't have the option to join. Also, using it in regular parties(outside guild) just won't happen because its too much work.

And all this just so the other half of the games population don't have to turn of the VC sound. Most people are not unreasonable, if there are people in the party who say "Sorry, but I really don't feel like using VC"(assuming there is actually someone who asks for it) I think most people would say "ok, we can type np". Unless FFXIV battle system is made in such a way that using VC is vastly superior, in which case I think an even stronger case for having it integrated can be made.

I dunno, I just feel like exluding easy access to a function, that is known to be used by a large part of the playerbase, simply because some don't use it seems like a very bad way of doing things. They should try to cater to the community as a whole, and I just think giving the playerbase the option to do with it what they will, is the better way of doing this. Because if they give us the tools needed, we will give the final verdict by seeing it become very popular and used or if it is something people do not like, it will not be used a lot in which case the people like OP who doesn't want VC integrated won't have much of an issue anymore.

After the last interview where VC was actually mentioned as something SE want to include(unless I remember it wrong now), but are having difficulties implementing because of cross-platform issues, I think they are on the right track. It should be included, and I hope they work things out and make it a really good VC.
#170 Feb 18 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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What people seem to be forgetting is that Raids were going on long before voice chat became popular. Somehow (as Seriha points out), people miraculously seemed to still do well in spite of the evidently major weakness of not being able to communicate over voice. I'm gonna throw in my hundreds of hours into the pool here too of using text to communicate and you know... my groups always seemed to do just fine as well.


raids were also much simpler back then. from what i know about EQ raiding, life as a cleric was "cast spells until empty, look at a book until full, repeat". even in the later expansions and encounters there wasnt much moving involved, at least compared to today. the other classes...wernt much different.

take, for instance, the encounter aurelius linked. in the 10-man version you typically send in three DPS and one healer during phase two to attack yoggs brain. while inside the illusion there are little skulls you cant look at, or they reduce your sanity. should your sanity hit 0, you lose the game, go insane, and start slaughtering your allies. in order to shatter the illusion, dispel the skulls, and get access to yoggs brain, you need to destroy these tentalces that are masquerading as benign objects or creatures in the background. the tentacles themselves are weak, but they have a backlash effect when they die, dealing damage to the person that killed them. hence the need for a healer.

so, in short, once the portal to yoggs brain opens, you need to run in and start killing these tentacles while also avoid looking at any of the insanity skulls (of which there are many). you also have sixty seconds in which to accomplish this, and if you don't get out before the 60s are up, you are driven insane (and again, start slaughtering your comrades). in essence, you enter an enclosed area, dodge and strafe from side to side in order to get to certain tentacles to kill until you and the other two melee dps have killed them all, then assault the brain for 40ish seconds (if youre good) whereupon you skedaddle on out before youre driven insane.

you dont have time to type. you have, from the time the portal into his brain opens, sixty seconds to shatter the illusion and attack the brain. taking even one second to stop, hit enter, and type "heal" or even just "h" is literally the difference between a wipe and a win. losing one good melee dps to insanity not only loses a huge source of damage, but also requires the raid to pull resources away from the boss to take that melee down before any more damage is done.

basically, things are much different now than they were before. people expect more, and SE knows this. if they dont deliver, theyll have another (at best) decent game. i dont think SE wants a "decent" game. i think SE wants to make a great game, that will appeal to a broader base of players. this means competing with the rich endgame that WoW has. and if they cant make complex, challenging encounters, then people wont play.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 2:37pm by Quor
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#171 Feb 18 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Default
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I guess I just want to make sure people don't get in the mind set that they have to use Voice and that the primary means should always be text, Voice is flat out optional (or in the case of some people in the thread, can optionally have it mandatory for their ls/guild whatever). If you want to have voice, you got optional third party platforms to use, and 'maybe' a voice option down the line in the entire package.

I don't want voice in the beginning, I want people to be FORCED to use text to start with unless they do those third party offerings. In which case thats there choice. I have been in a ton of new games recently where any game that has voice out of the box, tends to draw people to play the game like its always going to be there, and then when they run into people like me who refuses to play the game with voice, instead of just accepting that fact and adapting, they shun the player. The reaason FFXI doesn't have this issue is because people have learned to play the game with text and situational macros and learning things ahead of time. Voice is good if you like it, but its a crutch for actually making people learn their own job a good deal of the time. Not everyone, but it does breed a certain type of player that I 'personally' don't want to see in this game. Hate me all you want for that opinion, but I just don't care.
#172 Feb 18 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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raids were also much simpler back then. from what i know about EQ raiding, life as a cleric was "cast spells until empty, look at a book until full, repeat". even in the later expansions and encounters there wasnt much moving involved, at least compared to today. the other classes...wernt much different.


Soo every current day mmorpg? WoW for example isn't hard, it's not even what most people would call a challenge, so why do we need this "ultra fast" communication? Well we use it because our dps players are dog crap sitting in the sun. They can't figure out how to dodge the bad attack, or move out of the fire. WoW was much harder in vanilla and people act as if wrath requires a think tank in order to figure out simple fights.

Sorry if it posts twice I got some error the first time I hit post.
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#173 Feb 18 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
SoiFon wrote:
Quote:

raids were also much simpler back then. from what i know about EQ raiding, life as a cleric was "cast spells until empty, look at a book until full, repeat". even in the later expansions and encounters there wasnt much moving involved, at least compared to today. the other classes...wernt much different.


Soo every current day mmorpg? WoW for example isn't hard, it's not even what most people would call a challenge, so why do we need this "ultra fast" communication?


If you can't understand how much of a benefit it presents to groups that use it, nothing anyone says is going to make you understand it until you get into the kind of content that requires on the fly adjustments and collaboration in an environment where you have zero time to type as the norm.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 3:32pm by AureliusSir
#174 Feb 18 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Soo every current day mmorpg? WoW for example isn't hard, it's not even what most people would call a challenge, so why do we need this "ultra fast" communication? Well we use it because our dps players are dog crap sitting in the sun. They can't figure out how to dodge the bad attack, or move out of the fire. WoW was much harder in vanilla and people act as if wrath requires a think tank in order to figure out simple fights.


much harder in vanilla? where literally every fight until AQ (with the exception of one or two BWL fights) was a tank and spank? sure, you had a few "curveballs" tossed at you in the sense that you broke up into several smaller groups before you tanked and spanked, or maybe there were two or three mobs to tank and spank at once, but every fight in MC and most fights in BWL involved a tank (or two) tanking a boss while the raid killed it.

compare that too any of the raid content in wrath, and especially the hard modes, and you find that things are drastically different. many fights in BC were already well on their way to setting the raid standard that wrath currently has.

but all of that aside, the use of voice chat shows, in my mind, an inclination to be a team player. given the chaotic nature of many end game fights its naive to assume that other players have time to read chat. you might be able to hammer out "heal plz" in the span of a nanosecond, but if your healer is busy dodging flames or whatever then hes not going to have the time or inclination to see if anyone has typed anything.
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#175 Feb 18 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
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The reaason FFXI doesn't have this issue is because people have learned to play the game with text and situational macros and learning things ahead of time. Voice is good if you like it, but its a crutch for actually making people learn their own job a good deal of the time. Not everyone, but it does breed a certain type of player that I 'personally' don't want to see in this game. Hate me all you want for that opinion, but I just don't care.


agreed.

SE does not seem to be leaning towards voice :)
I wouldn't say voice is a bad thing but it would definitely not be the same.
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#176 Feb 18 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
croythegreat wrote:
The reaason FFXI doesn't have this issue is because people have learned to play the game with text and situational macros and learning things ahead of time.


The dozens of people I watched fail horribly in the Promyvions would be object proof that your perception of the average FFXI player is skewed. Nobody wanted to read ahead of time. Nobody wanted to learn about the fight mechanics. They wanted to zerg, they wanted to win now, and wiping 10 times due to perfect execution of a ****** strategy was a preferred alternative to doing it in a way that actually gave them a snowball's chance in **** of succeeding. The average FFXI player learned how to use situational macros to communicate. They didn't learn how to play the game very well.
#177 Feb 18 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I've played in top 10% worldwide guilds in WoW and voice chat was still an enormous benefit in keeping complex encounters on track. Idealism doesn't down bosses; communication, teamwork, and a certain level of skill with the game does.



That's a great story. Yet somehow the rest of the world goes on without voice chat. Those crazy hillbillies in other mmos keep using their caveman "typing" to communicate. FOOLS!

The top 10% of guilds in WoW doesn;t mean jack sh*t to me, even though your completely full of sh*t. Even if you were tellign the truth, stroke your epeen in the WoW forums.

Compare the hardest WoW endgame with the hardest FFXI endgame and I'm sure we can all agree which is harder. And yet they manage to kill Pandemonium Warden and clear Odin's chamber without voice chat... how on earth can they do that...



In the end, this isn't a topic to talk about for you, this is an ultimatum. We get it, you love voice chat and anyone who doesn't want to use it should suck you off. Now move along to the next topic where you can stand on a soap box and make up fake stats about how awesome you are. Some people are actually in this topic to discuss it.


edit

To add, Many of my ls mates were from whales, UK, Germany, Norway, etc. What a nightmare voice chat would be..

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 12:20am by Louiscool
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#178 Feb 18 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That's a great story. Yet somehow the rest of the world goes on without voice chat. Those crazy hillbillies in other mmos keep using their caveman "typing" to communicate. FOOLS!

this
Quote:
Compare the hardest WoW endgame with the hardest FFXI endgame and I'm sure we can all agree which is harder. And yet they manage to kill Pandemonium Warden and clear Odin's chamber without voice chat... how on earth can they do that...


and this occasionally attacked twice.

FFXIV: voice - key to success or Achilles heel?

I think if we use FFXI as evidence in a court of MMORPG justice we will discover
FFXI to be solid evidence of epic success without the use of voice.

I think voice should be an option, but I think it should be limited and certainly not a critical factor in end game, if SE is taking end game seriously in FFXIV, they would leave it out or as a 3rd party option.

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#179 Feb 19 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I've played in top 10% worldwide guilds in WoW and voice chat was still an enormous benefit in keeping complex encounters on track. Idealism doesn't down bosses; communication, teamwork, and a certain level of skill with the game does.



That's a great story. Yet somehow the rest of the world goes on without voice chat. Those crazy hillbillies in other mmos keep using their caveman "typing" to communicate. FOOLS!


Ya, and I'm sure you could find people in the world today who still record history on cave walls, too.

Quote:
The top 10% of guilds in WoW doesn;t mean jack sh*t to me, even though your completely full of sh*t. Even if you were tellign the truth, stroke your epeen in the WoW forums.


The point is that the insinuation that only poor players find a benefit to voice chat is patently false. Over 34000 ranked guilds and the last two guilds I was in were in the top 3000. In case you were wondering. It's not about stroking e-peen...it's about debunking moronic arguments. Like yours.

Quote:
Compare the hardest WoW endgame with the hardest FFXI endgame and I'm sure we can all agree which is harder. And yet they manage to kill Pandemonium Warden and clear Odin's chamber without voice chat... how on earth can they do that...


Yay for them. Those successes don't diminish the benefits of voice chat.

Quote:
In the end, this isn't a topic to talk about for you, this is an ultimatum. We get it, you love voice chat and anyone who doesn't want to use it should suck you off. Now move along to the next topic where you can stand on a soap box and make up fake stats about how awesome you are. Some people are actually in this topic to discuss it.


You're just the kind of immature doorknob that I love to boot from groups for being a sniveling sissy. Watch your mouth. If by "discuss it" you mean, "hide under their anti-social rocks and deny the benefits of progress", you're right...that's what an awful lot of people here seem to be content to do.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 10:22pm by AureliusSir
#180 Feb 19 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's perfectly possible to complete a a raid without voice chat. It's also perfectly possible to complete a raid without any communication at all. And it happens to be perfectly possible to complete a raid without even a monitor. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use a monitor, or type to allies, or use voice chat.

Voice chat is a facilitator and expediter. You don't use it because you have to; you use it because it makes things easier, exactly like macros. You don't need macros either to play your character, but they make mundane tasks much easier.

Trying to pretend that voice chat offers no benefit over simple typing is just ridiculous.
#181 Feb 19 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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you might be able to hammer out "heal plz" in the span of a nanosecond, but if your healer is busy dodging flames or whatever then hes not going to have the time or inclination to see if anyone has typed anything.


If you have to tell a healer to do their job, they either suck or you haven't brought enough healers. The latter is probably more likely given the average MMO player's aversion to support roles.
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#182 Feb 19 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dunno but to me, this: "For XIV, we're worrying whether or not we can implement voice chat. Like XI, it will run across multiple platforms, and there isn't a single, unifying way to support them all. Not to mention, we have many other communications issues to confront, such as communities being splintered by system, player harassment and translation features. At the moment, supporting voice chat will be difficult." (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=21451) sounds more like they do want VC and are trying to figure out a way to work it in, but are not sure how to implement it in a good way with all the difficulties that comes with an mmo. Especially one like FF that don't have regional servers.

Personally I think the OP made a good case as to why he doesn't want VC. "Because I don't feel like having it" or "imo it ruins the atmosphere" is about as good as it gets in this case. And those are perfectly good arguments too! Trying however, like many after him, to argue that VC makes people worse players, or that it isn't needed to clear endgame/difficult content therefore we should not have it, is to me just silly.
#183 Feb 19 2010 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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Trying however, like many after him, to argue that VC makes people worse players...


I don't believe anybody has tried to say this? the other way around, sure, but not this.
#184 Feb 19 2010 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
Trying however, like many after him, to argue that VC makes people worse players...


I don't believe anybody has tried to say this? the other way around, sure, but not this.


I'm not sure how to quote other than from the message I am answering so I will just write it down.

This:

"Voice chat breeds bad players from my experience." Written by SoiFon Feb 18th.

and this:

"Voice is good if you like it, but its a crutch for actually making people learn their own job a good deal of the time." Written by Croythegreat on Feb 18th.

I dunno, but to me that sounds more or less like what I said, but maybe I misunderstood, in which case, sorry my bad.

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 6:19am by Belcrono
#185 Feb 19 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
Belcrono wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
Trying however, like many after him, to argue that VC makes people worse players...


I don't believe anybody has tried to say this? the other way around, sure, but not this.


I'm not sure how to quote other than from the message I am answering so I will just write it down.

This:

"Voice chat breeds bad players from my experience." Written by SoiFon Feb 18th.

and this:

"Voice is good if you like it, but its a crutch for actually making people learn their own job a good deal of the time." Written by Croythegreat on Feb 18th.

I dunno, but to me that sounds more or less like what I said, but maybe I misunderstood, in which case, sorry my bad.



Well I will be damned... hey, it's 3 in the freakin morning lol...
#186 Feb 19 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

The point is that the insinuation that only poor players find a benefit to voice chat is patently false. Over 34000 ranked guilds and the last two guilds I was in were in the top 3000. In case you were wondering. It's not about stroking e-peen...it's about debunking moronic arguments. Like yours.
I think you're confusing the MANY posts here that argue against your ridiculous blanket statements. I never said anything about voice chat making poor players.

Quote:

Quote:
Compare the hardest WoW endgame with the hardest FFXI endgame and I'm sure we can all agree which is harder. And yet they manage to kill Pandemonium Warden and clear Odin's chamber without voice chat... how on earth can they do that...


Yay for them. Those successes don't diminish the benefits of voice chat.


Actually it does. You're saying that guilds/ls's cannot function well without VC. I'm showing you that it already does.

Maybe you just don't know what diminish means..

Quote:
di·min·ish
1.
a. To make smaller or less or to cause to appear so.
b. To detract from the authority, reputation, or prestige of.


Quote:

Quote:
In the end, this isn't a topic to talk about for you, this is an ultimatum. We get it, you love voice chat and anyone who doesn't want to use it should suck you off. Now move along to the next topic where you can stand on a soap box and make up fake stats about how awesome you are. Some people are actually in this topic to discuss it.


You're just the kind of immature doorknob that I love to boot from groups for being a sniveling sissy. Watch your mouth. If by "discuss it" you mean, "hide under their anti-social rocks and deny the benefits of progress", you're right...that's what an awful lot of people here seem to be content to do.



Oh no, does this mean we won't be friends? You know what irony is right? Some angry kid in a forum going around name calling when people don't agree with him is a pretty childish thing to do. I think my favorite part is when you play "tough guy on the internet" and tell me to watch my mouth.

Some people are so stubborn about their opinion that anyone disagreeing is an *sshole. I'm sure more people would voluntarily leave a group you lead before you could boot them for "sniveling".

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 10:46am by Louiscool
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#187 Feb 19 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
I think you're confusing the MANY posts here that argue against your ridiculous blanket statements. I never said anything about voice chat making poor players.


Look a couple of posts up. The references to voice chat breeding lesser players have been quoted.

Quote:
Actually it does. You're saying that guilds/ls's cannot function well without VC. I'm showing you that it already does.


I never said they can't. I've said that it's the standard for endgame in many MMOs, that it offers myriad benefits, and that there are a great many people who won't be interested in running endgame without it. There's a difference. And it's the truth. There's no denying it. Denying it would be like saying Obama isn't the current US president because you didn't vote for him. We're talking majority. Not all...majority.

See, folks are getting so wrapped up in being defensive and closed minded that now they're accusing me of being elitist and mean because I wouldn't run an endgame group without VC and wouldn't want to be part of a group that didn't use it. This, of course, is referring strictly to events and not a requirement of day to day banter and chatter between such events. I'm being held as the bringer of FFXIV apartheid for advocating what could result in the segregation of various different groups of players.

Of course, it doesn't take much to read back and find where I've said that that's exactly what I don't want to have happen, which is why I'm a substantial proponent of FFXIV offering integrated, cross-platform voicechat. After that, if people want to be butthurt that there are going to be endgame groups that will deny entry because said player chooses not to avail themselves of the benefits of voicechat, then that becomes a situation they've brought on themselves through their choice.

At the end of the day (again, as I've said repeatedly), it's one thing if a person prefers not to use it. It's another thing when they start spewing ridiculous arguments against it from minority situation stereotypes as a general rule right the way up to the lunacy that VC breeds lesser players. And my experience in FFXI, as illustrated, is that the general skill level amongst the NA playerbase was no greater or lesser than that in any other MMO. The denial gets old. The delusions get old.

Quote:
Maybe you just don't know what diminish means..


My use of the word was appropriate.

Your comment

Quote:
you love voice chat and anyone who doesn't want to use it should suck you off.


was not.

Savvy?
#188 Feb 19 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If you have to tell a healer to do their job, they either suck or you haven't brought enough healers. The latter is probably more likely given the average MMO player's aversion to support roles.


or the raid encounters are tuned in such a way that you cant afford to bring more than two healers for a 10-man group. and even the best players get tunnel vision and make mistakes sometimes. we're only human after all.

allegory said it best:

Quote:
Trying to pretend that voice chat offers no benefit over simple typing is just ridiculous.


edit: and just as a friendly fyi belcrono, the way i use to quote other text is to find the post i want to quote form, copy the given text, then past it into my response box. after that, you can highlight the text then hit the "quote" button up top under the "markup" section.

alternatively, if you dont feel like hitting the quote you can also type ["quote]Text[/quote"] but without the "". heres an example of one of my favorite quotes from my good friend, the almighty GrumpyWookie:

Quote:
If god was a woman every full moon there would be floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. The week after that there would be chocolate.


Edited, Feb 19th 2010 8:16am by Quor
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i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#189 Feb 19 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Actually it does. You're saying that guilds/ls's cannot function well without VC. I'm showing you that it already does.


I never said they can't. I've said that it's the standard for endgame in many MMOs, that it offers myriad benefits, and that there are a great many people who won't be interested in running endgame without it. There's a difference. And it's the truth. There's no denying it. Denying it would be like saying Obama isn't the current US president because you didn't vote for him. We're talking majority. Not all...majority.

See, folks are getting so wrapped up in being defensive and closed minded that now they're accusing me of being elitist and mean because I wouldn't run an endgame group without VC and wouldn't want to be part of a group that didn't use it. This, of course, is referring strictly to events and not a requirement of day to day banter and chatter between such events. I'm being held as the bringer of FFXIV apartheid for advocating what could result in the segregation of various different groups of players.

Of course, it doesn't take much to read back and find where I've said that that's exactly what I don't want to have happen, which is why I'm a substantial proponent of FFXIV offering integrated, cross-platform voicechat.



Italics for we actually agree.

Maybe it's just the way you said it before, or you can just attack my reading comprehension, but those points weren't made clear. And I never denied that voice chat has benefits.

Friends?


Edited, Feb 19th 2010 11:27am by Louiscool
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#190 Feb 19 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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i think aurelius' points got washed away in the rush of people calling him elitist and trying to provide examples of why his end game experience was irrelevant but their end game experience was not.

its funny, cause given what i know about aurelius, seeing him called an elitist is just ten kinds of delicious irony. i think jord would be rolling over in his non-existent grave if he saw this thread.
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i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#191goblinpimp, Posted: Feb 19 2010 at 10:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Quote:
#192 Feb 19 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm kind of on the fence about this, I do think that females in general get the harsh end of the stick (I'm a guy btw) and I also feel that in voice chat it is far to easy to be offensive because of the speed at which something can be said as opposed to typed, not to mention that having some idiot curse or be sexist or whatever it might be is a lot more personal when its said over voice chat.

It's one thing to have abusive teenagers and children who don't know any better but when you have a grown adult who is elitist or just an A**hole in general or someone who uses offensive cultural slang I really don't want to party with these types of people and its a whole lot easier to ignore it when its in text.

For the most part I have had a pretty good experience with voice chat whilst playing WoW, and lets face it as far as MMO's go its probably the most immature community out there, but XBL on the other hand has been the complete opposite.

There is a completely different attitude towards voice chat over a console as opposed to a PC and that's where you get the annoying whiny abusive types come in the droves, its hard to say whether those types of gamers will be attracted to FF14 or not though(lets hope not).

Overall I feel that voice chat is more of a positive than a negative though, I can completely understand what Seriha said in his/her post on page 1 though.

As for the stop the QQing comment is exactly why people don't want to use voice chat though, nobody wants to have to hear that crap over a set of headphones.

Edited, Feb 19th 2010 11:41am by Diakar
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#193 Feb 19 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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or the raid encounters are tuned in such a way that you cant afford to bring more than two healers for a 10-man group. and even the best players get tunnel vision and make mistakes sometimes. we're only human after all.


Maybe, maybe not. This doesn't quite account for hybrids in the 10 man number, but I know in regards to XI, many of our alliance groups were designed to be self-sustaining. From the healer perspective, this means you only care for people in your party short of extreme duress. That's where my point on faith in your fellow alliance members comes into play, and personal knowledge and awareness can be what prompts you to extend a hand... not so much someone telling you to. There's also the facet of DDs needing to know how to avoid their damage if they can, but we also need to accept that sometimes deaths do happen and no amount of planning can prevent them.
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#194 Feb 19 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe, maybe not. This doesn't quite account for hybrids in the 10 man number, but I know in regards to XI, many of our alliance groups were designed to be self-sustaining. From the healer perspective, this means you only care for people in your party short of extreme duress. That's where my point on faith in your fellow alliance members comes into play, and personal knowledge and awareness can be what prompts you to extend a hand... not so much someone telling you to. There's also the facet of DDs needing to know how to avoid their damage if they can, but we also need to accept that sometimes deaths do happen and no amount of planning can prevent them.


well, look at the yogg fight aurelius linked. there is damage flying everywhere in phase 2. for the group that has to stay outside (six people in a 10 man) youre talking about the ranged dps, one healer, the main tank and maybe one or two melee dps. there are three kinds of tentacles outside, and one of them is called a constrictor tentacle. it grabs someone and disables them while dealing a decent chunk of damage every second. most ranged dps will be dead in 5-10s depending on the amount of "ambient" damage flying around. most melee dps will be dead in about the same time. the MT could last for about 15s in most situations. so if you get grabbed by the constrictor tentacle, two things have to happen.

first, the healer has to heal you, and right now. given that the shortest direct heal is a 1.5s cast, and in most cases is very mana inefficient, youll likely be seeing healers use a 2.5-3s cast heal, just so that theyll have mana efficiency as well heal you for a big chunk.

secondly, the DPS needs to find that tentacle and kill it ASAP. these tentacles average about 100kish life on 10-man iirc. four dps can take one down pretty quickly, but theyve gotta react quickly and get on that tentacle asap, especially if said tentacle grabs the healer.

while this is all going, other tentacles are around, tossing debuffs of various kinds of people. curses that mages and druids (and some shaman) need to dispel. poisons that stun periodically that have to be removed asap by a shaman, druid or paladin. magic debuffs that only priests or paladins can remove, and diseases that shaman, priests and paladins need to get rid of. these debuffs range from cast/atk/movement speed slow downs, to the stunning i mentioned, to all kinds of other crap.

all of this compounds to make a pretty challenging experience. and yogg is considered old hat now. as nice as it is to be able to separate groups into little self-sufficient "mini" groups a lot of encounters (in WoW at least) dont accomodate easily to that idea. some encounters have cloth casters acting as tanks, other encounters cannot be practically tanked in the traditional sense of the word. almost every encounter has a "hard enrage" cap put on it.

for those that are unfamiliar with the term, hard enrages are basically time periods where the developers have said "kill it before this happens or you die", and they typically average around ten minutes. if you dont have the dps to kill a boss before the hard enrage timer runs out, the boss goes nucking futz, gets a huge boost to damage (often one-shotting a geared tank) or sometimes just outright kills everyone in the room. there a way of setting a "dps check" for a boss, meaning you need to have a minimum of XXXX dps to kill said boss or else you wipe. theyre also proof against an attrition style of play, where you just toss tanks and healers at the boss and chip away at it. a balanced group typically has no more than 20% of its strength in healers, with another 10-20% as tanks and the rest dps, and generally if you find yourself hitting an enrage timer and your gear is up to par, then that means youre bringing along too many healers or too many tanks (or both).

so to sum up this big blob, its not really a matter of faith, its a matter of the challenge and the core design of the encounters. the way encounters are built now (and WoW is the standard to beat for many people coming into FF14) is such that a lot of old ideas have been discarded. you can no longer count on "your" healer to be there because "your" healer might be busy dispelling some key debuff off of the tank that needs to be dispelled NOW. you can trust that the other healer will get your back, but as i said before, we're all human. even on the best of our gaming days we make mistakes, and with the number of things going on in modern encounters its nice to take every advantage you can get.
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#195 Feb 19 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
edit: and just as a friendly fyi belcrono, the way i use to quote other text is to find the post i want to quote form, copy the given text, then past it into my response box. after that, you can highlight the text then hit the "quote" button up top under the "markup" section.

alternatively, if you dont feel like hitting the quote you can also type ["quote]Text[/quote"] but without the "". heres an example of one of my favorite quotes from my good friend, the almighty GrumpyWookie:
Edited, Feb 19th 2010 8:16am by Quor


Thanks a lot, I've been curious about it for a while, just never really managed to figure it out on my own. :)
#196 Feb 19 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if SE provide an in game option for voice chat which encompass consoles aswell as PC's then do they not need to also provide seperate voice servers for this to work ?

If that is the case could this not have a possible effect on subscription costs ?

If so then does that not seem unfair to people who don't want to or see no reason to have it as an option ?
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#197 Feb 19 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
Seriha wrote:
Quote:
or the raid encounters are tuned in such a way that you cant afford to bring more than two healers for a 10-man group. and even the best players get tunnel vision and make mistakes sometimes. we're only human after all.


Maybe, maybe not. This doesn't quite account for hybrids in the 10 man number, but I know in regards to XI, many of our alliance groups were designed to be self-sustaining. From the healer perspective, this means you only care for people in your party short of extreme duress. That's where my point on faith in your fellow alliance members comes into play, and personal knowledge and awareness can be what prompts you to extend a hand... not so much someone telling you to. There's also the facet of DDs needing to know how to avoid their damage if they can, but we also need to accept that sometimes deaths do happen and no amount of planning can prevent them.


In fights with enrage timers, you often can't afford to have your hybrid dps taking time out to help heal. In the encounter I used as an example and the part of the encounter Quor is referencing, the area the dps + healer go to is large enough for players to get spread out beyond healing range in addition to the potential for line of sight obstacles to prevent healing even if the target is in range. Because of the amount of movement involved between targets, the need to watch and adjust for the small skulls that sap your sanity, and the significant demands for high damage to accomplish what that part of the group needs to do, dps need their focus mid-screen, not on a chat log. Healers need to be watching mid-screen for skulls as well as unit frames for health/range.

Is it possible to manage that part (or any other part) of that encounter without voice? More than likely. Is voice an enormous asset in that encounter? Absolutely. If you have access to an asset that enables more efficient execution of a strategy or more efficient coordination of the group towards success, can you blame people for making use of it? I'd say no. The only time I would say otherwise would be if the developer banned the use of third party voice chat applications while playing the game. Of course, I probably wouldn't play a game that enforced such a draconian restriction, either.

Obviously nobody is going to be fighting Yogg'Saron in FFXIV. The purpose of the example was to illustrate a relatively modern encounter where the mechanics preclude extra time to type. I like the fact that SE has a small but dedicated team of developers who like to put together extremely difficult encounters for its players to challenge themselves. It's a safe bet that most PC players are going to apply voice chat as part of their tactical ******* in terms of overcoming those challenges. The hope is that PS3 (and XBox, if applicable) players won't be left out because they can't get access to VC without a PC in addition to their console.
#198 Feb 19 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
Diakar wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if SE provide an in game option for voice chat which encompass consoles aswell as PC's then do they not need to also provide seperate voice servers for this to work ?

If that is the case could this not have a possible effect on subscription costs ?

If so then does that not seem unfair to people who don't want to or see no reason to have it as an option ?


It would require additional server resources, yes. Fair or unfair doesn't really come into the equation. In any MMO there is going to be a wide array of content, all of which requiring server resources and development time to create, maintain, and update. If Bob is only interested in a certain aspect of the game, would you say it's unfair that he has to pay the same monthly fee as people who enjoy all aspects of it? You pay the same monthly fee as everyone else and are granted access to the same content as everyone else. Whether or not you choose to make use of it is up to you.
#199 Feb 19 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
i think aurelius' points got washed away in the rush of people calling him elitist and trying to provide examples of why his end game experience was irrelevant but their end game experience was not.


For me its not about providing examples to make aurelius' experiences irrelevant, I just want to show that their are experiences on the opposite side of the scale. His examples are same valid as are those of others, I just don't give a big "thumbs up" to the picture he is painting.

Does voice-chat has some good points, of course it does but so does text-chat. Especially in a multi-lingual environment where people from all over the world participate in the same group. Listening to someone speaking english when your mother tongue is another language isn't the same as as reading someone writing in english.

Since most examples from aurelius' are from WoW, there are regional servers which means german speaking folks go on a german-server, UK people go on a UK-server, people who speak french go on a french server, people from the USA go to a US-server and so on and that is a big deciding factor if voice-chat is as efficient and effectiv as pictured in the "pro voice chat" examples.

Maybe its just my problem since as austrian my native language is german and even when I think my english is pretty good it is really something completely different for me to listen to someone talking in english or if I read a strategy written in english on a forum or in text-chat.

It seems most of you are native english-speakers so I guess you never had to deal with that issue.

So long,
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#200 Feb 19 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
frodito wrote:
Since most examples from aurelius' are from WoW, there are regional servers which means german speaking folks go on a german-server, UK people go on a UK-server, people who speak french go on a french server, people from the USA go to a US-server and so on and that is a big deciding factor if voice-chat is as efficient and effectiv as pictured in the "pro voice chat" examples.


European servers are an amalgamation of all European countries. There are servers that grow to be known for hosting players from predominantly the same region (and thus largely the same language), but there are still many different languages spoken on any given EU server. There is also no auto-translate function. And endgame guilds on those servers still make heavy use of voice chat for their raids.
#201 Feb 19 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
frodito wrote:
Quor wrote:
i think aurelius' points got washed away in the rush of people calling him elitist and trying to provide examples of why his end game experience was irrelevant but their end game experience was not.


For me its not about providing examples to make aurelius' experiences irrelevant, I just want to show that their are experiences on the opposite side of the scale. His examples are same valid as are those of others, I just don't give a big "thumbs up" to the picture he is painting.


Somewhere along the line I think people have tricked themselves into thinking that I've said endgame in MMOs is impossible without voice chat. I haven't. I've said it offers a benefit. I've said that in games where you're triggering abilities every couple of seconds, communication no longer comes at the cost of performance when voice chat is used. Pointing out examples where voice chat hasn't been used doesn't make voice chat any less useful. And it ignores the reality: many MMORPG players are accustomed to voice chat as a standard means of communication in large group events. If SE doesn't account for that, FFXIV is going to suffer in one way or another.
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