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#1 Feb 10 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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My hope for the crafting in general for FFXIV is that everything will sort of level together. What I mean by that is, if you are just starting out cooking, you'll make food that would be useful for someone who is just starting out with a fighting class. Or if you are just starting out as a blacksmith, you'll make weapons for someone just starting out as a Disciple of War... if you are an experienced blacksmith, however, you'll make things for experienced fighters...

In other words.... I DON'T want to see things like in FFXI where you have to be a level 40 alchemist to make a level 1 bullet.

Whats wrong with things progressing together?
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#2 Feb 10 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Autumnfire wrote:
My hope for the crafting in general for FFXIV is that everything will sort of level together. What I mean by that is, if you are just starting out cooking, you'll make food that would be useful for someone who is just starting out with a fighting class. Or if you are just starting out as a blacksmith, you'll make weapons for someone just starting out as a Disciple of War... if you are an experienced blacksmith, however, you'll make things for experienced fighters...

In other words.... I DON'T want to see things like in FFXI where you have to be a level 40 alchemist to make a level 1 bullet.

Whats wrong with things progressing together?


I totally agree with that. What I believe is the most important part of this is that items created at a low level would be important throughout the game. What I mean specifically is: In FFXI there was a best item for a task, take a yagudo drink. There was almost never a time when another juice would be used in its place, no matter the level. I would like to see some sort of system in which you need the low level items to synth the higher level ones. Maybe you simply can't use the higher level items unless you are of a certain skill. This way low level crafters have a market.

I know that has its own inherent problems, I just want a system in which crafting doesn't start being fun at the end of leveling it up.
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#3 Feb 10 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't want things to be too easy to level up either though. Usually when they match, that means the crafting is too easy to level up.

#4 Feb 10 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
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Sub crafts weren't really that cool in ffxi because it was a pain to level 'em to 60. Disciples of the Hand&Land might just completely progress like a Fighter class or a Magic class and then it won't be completely like: level craft by skilling up through crafting items.
#5 Feb 10 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Moonkissed wrote:
I would like to see some sort of system in which you need the low level items to synth the higher level ones. Maybe you simply can't use the higher level items unless you are of a certain skill. This way low level crafters have a market.


FFXI was like that, you will need a to use ores to craft ingots, ingots to craft sheets, sheets to craft equipements

so the lower crafted items do have their market.
and if someone is a low level BLM, they dont have too much MP, they wouldnt necessarily need yagudo drinks and melon pies, they could use pineapple juice and apple pie instead, it might actually be more efficient and cheaper.

Edited, Feb 10th 2010 4:22pm by Mostaru
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#6 Feb 10 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just hoping it'll be more in-depth than XI's system, that isn't saying XI's crafting system wasn't good, I just want more is all. Also it would be ******* awesome if crafting doesn't go to **** over the years because of the market getting saturated with non-consumable/non-disposable items.
#7 Feb 10 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think it'll be much more complicated than the system in XI aside from adding things like dye to color an item if you like it black instead of brown. I don't think the crafting is to be blamed for 'going to ****' as you say. You're usually left with alot of crap that doesn't sell when the population and thus the demand are declining. High supply and nearly no demand leave prices for low level items barely worth listing against the auction house cut.
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#8 Feb 10 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Drinks were weird like that, but food did EXACTLY what you say.

I used to laugh and laugh at kids using Sole Sushi at level 12 in a party. Oooh you just increased your accuracy by 25%!!! which means you gained like 1 on your lame accuracy when you could have gained a solid +10-20 on your attack or accuracy with a different food.
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#9 Feb 10 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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***********************WARNING: Wall Of Text Ahead************************
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ffxi has the most intricate system of items of any MMO I've ever played.

First, the items available at any given town are determined by a few things:

Conquest: Higher conquest rank changes which spells are available at the basic magic shops and what foods are available at the inns.

Conquest: What regions you control determine whether or not you can buy a variety of ingredients in a certain town.

Fame: Prices fluctuate depending upon how many quests you do. For selling and buying. Some people may count this as negligible, but selling a ram horn for 450 or selling it for 650 is a huge difference.

Travel time determines a large amount of what you buy and don't buy in FFXI. Other factors include what guilds are in each town, and what crystals are on what local market. If you could just warp to every town in ffxi without travel time, the economy would have broken down and lost a good 4 dimensions to it's complexity.

Lets take food for an example.

I have my level 1 samurai with his 2h weapon. My training area of choice is King Ranperre's tomb, if I have mithkabobs. The reason for this is with the raw strength bonus from Mithkabobs, I can one hit VT and IT worms in KRT with my SAM at level 1, and go up to level 7 getting 1 hit kills for over 100 xp.

Mithkabobs are expensive, and not sold at any shop. The price is stable on the AH, with a steady supply coming in and going out. Generally they are 2k a stack on my server.

This method is expensive, but effective. However, when I have a job like ninja, the damage at any level is much less, especially at level 1. At this level, I would much rather use something that is much less expensive.

Jerky at level 1 is great because it gives a decent strength buff and has an additional benefit. I will pay, at most, 1k gil a stack. why? because the price at the NPC in the nation in charge is something like 500 a stack. The recipe is low level. This results in an artificial price ceiling that varies with which nation is in charge. In general, you can get a stack of jerky for the same price as it would cost at the Inn of a leading nation. If the price inflates due to distance, people take advantage of that and go to the lead nation, but the stack for 500 and then sell it for 1000 at the inflated nation. This results in the market being flooded and people undercutting and the price dropping.

using jerky, I can kill DC or EM mobs without much difficulty and chain them in some cases. I can't do any better with mithkabobs because the enemies still hit me just as hard, and I still have to rest just as much.




This is also an argument for the long travel between nations. At higher levels you can shorten this time significantly, or in some cases, negate it entirely. But at higher levels, the areas that you need to level are are more focused around a central area. This also effectively isolates the low level and high level markets.





As for nations and prerequisite items at a lower level leading to higher level items, Lets use ingots like someone suggested above.



Where do metal armors start? Ores. Ores are available in a few different ways.


Mining: Most common ores are much easier to mine. Because they are common. A level 60 player could mine any ore easily up to iron.

Guild: There are 2 guilds at least for all of the skill trades. These guilds are spread out according to which nations have a race that uses the results of those skills the most at the major cities, with the minor cities having a mixture of different trades that are not common to the natural jobs of each race in the starting nations.

Each guild has it's own prices, and those prices vary depending on how many of an item sold a previous day. If an item is bought out one day, the price will increase by a percentage the next day. This continues until the item is no longer bought, either because people are done using it or it is too expensive to buy more of.

Crafting items sold at stores tend to be mostly items that you can use to create usable armors and weapons.

The crafting store also sells finished products, but I don't know how they determine the prices, as they are incredibly inflated.

AH: The last method of gaining ores is to buy them off of the AH. How is this different from mining? because if the price on the AH is higher than the guild price, the guild price will the be inflated due to people buying from the guild and selling on the AH. AH hawks know that many people can't be bothered to check the prices of the major guilds to see what is the cheapest, and they will jump at the chance to flood the market with items and undercut everyone else to make a quick gil.

Overall, the price for gathering is rather cheap at low levels, hardly worth the cost of a pickaxe to break on the ore. At higher levels, Getting 1 darksteel ore with a stack of pickaxes is well worth it.

Again, the main issue here is time. SE has done a magnificent job of making crafting materials available to those that are impatient and have money, but not setting a fixed price for these items is CRUCIAL. This makes it worth the time to gather if there are enough people who don't want to waste the time gathering.



okay, you have your ores. Now we have the cost of ingots.

The biggest issue with whether to make or buy your ingots is the cost of fire crystals. At 4k a stack, that 5k stack of ingots is looking pretty cheap in comparison.

There are numerous tools to figure out which is more efficient, but lets skip that and get to the heart of the issue.

How much do you value your time? People will pay a good deal of money to buy either the raw materials gathered or the ingots made if it saves them time. Coppers ores aren't worth the time mining as the guild price is usually 3 or 4 gil. Although supplies are limited, it's worth the wait to buy them at that price than 40 or 50 on the AH. Also, limited selling space makes it impractical to make money spending time selling copper ores on the AH.

again, Darksteel is another story. Darksteel is uncommon at best. At a mid range level (around 50), you can gather about 3 an hour on a good day. The main source of darksteel is the guild shops, which is reflected in the price being around 10k for a darksteel ore at the guild store.







I'll just stop there. As you can see, this pattern will continue for every next step, varrying depending on how many of the next item you can get for one of the previous, with a small inflation depending on the difficulty to make the next step and the cost of the involved items.

In the end, the most spectacular thing about this is that what is controlling most of the prices in FFXI is the time it takes to gather the items and the popularity of those said items.





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Back on topic of the OP:

Bullets are a bad example to use from FFXI. The idea, I think, was to make guns a very exotic weapon. All other ranged weapon ammunition skill requirements was based upon the damage and the skill level of prerequisites.

Just a side note, The lowest level bullet is level 38 alchemy. Level 15 bullets are at 26 alchemy. Bullets are just backwards, but guns in general aren't used at lower levels, mostly due to bows being vastly superior in damage. Low level bullets seem to be there purely for doing little damage to help you skill up.
#10 Feb 11 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Decent
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What I'm about to say pertains to the crafting systems of all old guard MMOs.
This includes XI, but doesn't intend to single it out.


There's a difference between a complicated system and a complex system.
Complex systems can either be hard or easy to understand, and once you do, the result is within the realm of a certain expectation but ultimately unpredictable. Complicated systems are hard to understand, and once you do, the result is the same every time.

Complex systems in a videogame are alluring, because the 'realm of expectation' gives you something tangible to build a game mechanic around. Players have enough control of the outcome through the mechanic to feel as though they have agency, but the result is surprising enough to remain interesting. Complicated systems are what arise when an attempt to create a complex system falls apart, and an illusion of depth through overwhelming minutia is attempted instead.

The process of gathering together materials from an NPC for crafting is a complicated system. Using XI as an example; Your country needs to control Aragoneu for the regional vendor to sell Millioncorn. Horo flour costs 36gil at max fame. It's alot of little bits and pieces that are fundamentally static. (To it's credit, XI tried to build a better illusion by having the actions of other players impact things, conquest and guild prices namely, but this is still following a formula so exploitable it's not truly unpredictable.)

This is married to other functions in crafting, like the actual process of harvesting and the act of crafting, that surrenders so wholeheartedly to the RNG they're chaotic systems.

This old guard crafting is the worst kind of combination. Chaotic systems in which the player has no agency works hand and hand with complicated systems that offer no variability. You are at once, helpless and bored. A cog going through the motions, with your single moment of meaningful choice being not what you make, not how you make it, not even how those materials are harvested, but whether or not your going to buy the ingredients from other players or an NPC/Node. Your agency lies in how much profit you can make.

You are not a crafter. You are, at best, an accountant.


Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:04am by Zemzelette
#11 Feb 11 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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One thing I disliked about the crafting system in 11 is how unbelievably impractical it was to level up a craft while you leveled up a character. Sure, you -could- level up skills on your Ranger to make your own ammo, or make your own armor, but the amount of time and money (or opportunity cost) expended into such ventures was typically not worth it. I can buy this body piece for 3000 gil, or I can spend 10,000 leveling up a skill, and then with the mats, the body piece only costs 1500 to make! I saved 1.5k!

I really would like 14 to have a system where one can realistically level a craft to outfit themselves with robes or mail or potions or swords, without having to powerlevel that craft separately.
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#12 Feb 11 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia wrote:
One thing I disliked about the crafting system in 11 is how unbelievably impractical it was to level up a craft while you leveled up a character. Sure, you -could- level up skills on your Ranger to make your own ammo, or make your own armor, but the amount of time and money (or opportunity cost) expended into such ventures was typically not worth it. I can buy this body piece for 3000 gil, or I can spend 10,000 leveling up a skill, and then with the mats, the body piece only costs 1500 to make! I saved 1.5k!

I really would like 14 to have a system where one can realistically level a craft to outfit themselves with robes or mail or potions or swords, without having to powerlevel that craft separately.


I think the option to lose materials on failed synths really needs to not return in FFXIV. And since there's really nothing but time sink involved in failed synths if there's no option to lose materials, that would mean failed synthesis results would also be obsolete. I'd rather see a more...entertaining...gathering system in conjunction with more intricate material requirements as the inherent challenge in leveling a profession. Like anything else, it's fine if it's time consuming and involved as long as there aren't game mechanics that can set you back hours "just because".
#13 Feb 11 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Responding directly to the OP, I think part of the problem is that SE doesn't decide which items will be most useful; we do. That's why they add so many in-between items that seem useless, because we're supposed to experiment and find out what's best. Value is determined mostly by the players. Don't forget that many items were indeed useful at one point. It's just that more items get added over time, and a larger percentage of players settle at high levels. Items can become obsolete, but they're rarely removed, and when you don't have a huge amount of low level players running around not knowing exactly what the best item is to use in any given situation, it's not so surprising to see why the crafting situation in FFXI is the way it is now.

I expect that FFXIV will be smarter. The emphasis on crafting in FFXIV is huge, and this time around, the devs have a frame of reference as they work on it. ****, even today FFXI is still a testbed for new ideas, just look at the Synergy thing. I believe crafting in FFXIV will be filled with nuances and intricacies that hardcore crafters can appreciate, but they will not be forced, and the basic system will be fairly simple and approchable for people who just want something different and fun to do. Crafting will be especially beneficial to other players, profitable to the crafters, and even more profitable to those who learn the system well.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I think the option to lose materials on failed synths really needs to not return in FFXIV.

A million times this.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 5:58pm by TraumaFox
#14 Feb 11 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Value is determined mostly by the players.


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#15 Feb 12 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette can you have my babies?

I couldn't have said it any better, seriously you hit the nail on the head.
#16 Feb 21 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Default
Agreed losing synthesis materials is expendable.
I hope crafting reaches new heights with FFXIV expanding from just lvling a craft to make gear food etc.
as long as it remains relevant and a reliable source of income at all lvls and remains challenging I will be happy.
I noticed the whole supplying the power crafters and what to look for in the cities markets in relation to each other and Jeuno about a year into FFXI and was quite successful because of it.
I hope fishing is back by the way, I loved fishing.

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#17 Feb 21 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm guessing there will be very few similarities in the crafting of FF11 and FF14 the concepts are so different, one is a skill and one is a class.

SE have hinted to as much in the info they have on the FFXIV homepage about using different utensils.

Time for speculation.
I am guessing a recipe might look something like.

Meat Chiefkabob
Cockatrice Meat x1, Peppers x1, Garlic x1, Onion x1

Required skill: 13 meat knife, 20 skillet, 5 seasoning.

You could raise basic skills of certain utensils by cutting meat to raise meat knife skills or by doing particular quests given by the guild: Samuel in Ul'dah wants you to fry the 10 rabbit meat he has collected, which would increase your skill in using a skillet.

Alternatively to level Woodcutting you would need to level your Wood Axe skills where the guild may send you to complete a guildleve to cut 10 ash wood and 10 oak wood.

I really hope crafting becomes a different way of playing the game other than just crafting for a few hours a day and ends up more like playing out a role in the community.

Part of the problem with FF11 is that you can try to make something prior to having the correct skills which increase chance of failure, I don't think you should be able to make something unless you have the skill to and/or learnt the recipe, which negates the need to punish a player for a failed attempt.

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 1:56pm by Diakar
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#18 Feb 21 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Loss of materials is a gamebreaker, in my opinion. I understand that it counterbalances the +1 mechanic, but when you're getting a manteel made by someone and though every factor such as day and moon phase are right it is heartbreaking to watch your cloth explode.

On the flipside, the +1 mechanic to crafting is great. It would be nicer if this mechanic was actually enhanced to proc more often and you could use the resultant HQ item for further crafting. This is one area that Aion did extremely well, allowing a lucky crafter to make items of extraordinary value.

I personally love the crafting system that was used in Aion in many respects. It was always possible to level your chosen craft with your character and make usable items (or sometimes you'd get lucky and make a HQ item that you could use or sell for income). The downside was being tied to a particular crafting area (field crafting was a great thing in FFXI) and the mastery quests which were horrific beyond reckoning. The quested craft leveling was nice, but it would have been nicer had there been more variety in NPCs to level off of (i.e. not just one trainer in your home city for all your crafting quests). The rarity of the recipes also was a nice thing because it added value to a dedicated crafter. The HQ proc system varied from about a 10% chance to up to around 30% depending on your crafting level relative to the craft, and then you could turn around and upgrade most of those HQ items further, possibly HQing them as well (allowing for even more powerful upgrades). Some of the most powerful crafted items had well under a 1% stacked HQ proc rate (HQ->HQ->HQ) making them phenomenally rare, but this built in rarity allowed them to be exquisitely powerful. The other upside of this system is that non-HQ items would be sold on the cheap allowing casual players to reasonably equip themselves while allowing a blossoming market of high end gear, some of which was sold to other crafters for further upgrade attempts. (edit: you could still fail a craft, but if you were adequately leveled in that skill it was rare ... I still think this is a disposable mechanic)

I almost hope that FFXIV cribs the Aion system heavily while replacing fluxes with dropped crystals, adding crafting tools of various quality to replace the need for crafting stations, eliminating brick-wall style mastery quests (spending an entire guild's collective fortune to help a crafter progress through one brick wall is BS), adding a lot of variety in craft quest trainers (or simply making it easier to level a craft by making things as well!), and adding in the elemental wheel and other novel things that they used in FFXI.

While they're at it, they should also crib near-unlimited material stacking as well. I never want to have a bag full of beetle shells ever again. If it is a very rare and powerful crafting ingredient I can understand it not stacking ... but crab shells or fish? Seriously?

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 6:50pm by LetThemEatCake
#19 Feb 21 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm told the crafting in Fallen Earth is like TEH BEST KRAFTZ EVAR, and that you can spend days crafting a motorcycle/car.
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#20 Feb 21 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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This is a reasonable request. I approve.
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