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Skills Leveling SystemFollow

#1 Feb 13 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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This is pure speculation. And I'll admit right off I'm not as informed as many people likely are here. But I just wondered if 'skill leveling' which was hinted at before might resemble Morrowind - which i just started playing again to kill time. For those who are unfamiliar with it I'll explain the leveling system.

Your character gets a skill set of major and minor skills. Each skill has a level meter (0/100) that builds as you use it. Every time one of those levels it contributes towards an overall character level(0/10). The are no experience points per say as everything level wise is built by 'using'/'training' skills.

I'm just wondering if FFXIV will implement something similar since they said normal exp system is not being used right?
#2 Feb 13 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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That would be interesting almost say if used in FFXI Warrior using provoke gets points in provoke making it either stronger initially or holding threat for a longer duration based on how often it is used and what "level" your provoke is. Is that what your driving at?
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#3 Feb 13 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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We will likely see a system that is either like you described OP or a slightly more random system that gives us a partial skill up chance like UO or other skill based MMOs.
#4 Feb 13 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I really hope it's not a random skill up. Would love to see level meter/experience for the skills.
#5 Feb 13 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Whatever system they go with, I'm hoping they'll deal in whole numbers instead of this .1 .2 .5 skill ups stuff. Nothing drove me nuts more than skilling up weapons or skills (evasion esp., though with a healer friend and the right spot, it was a cinch) than to be killing crab after crab in Boyahda Tree to only see a .1. I know it's completely placebo to want whole numbers, but it FEELS faster. You see that you now have 5/100 skill level for swords and it actually MEANS skill level 5 sword skill instead of 5.somethingyoumayormaynotrememberuntilyougettothenextskilllevel.

What would be nice is a system that skills up quickly to start, and then as you start to approach higher levels of skill, slows down. While FFXI did that to some extent, I found that skilling up slowed down too quickly for my liking and if a job (ie. drk or war) used more than one weapon type, by about lvl 30 or 40, you often had to focus on one while leveling as it was sometimes tough to keep both up, particularly with 2h weapons.

This way, the tedium of the lower levels goes quickly, especially when leveling a new disciple or class within a discipline, and you can get to the more challenging stuff later on.
#6 Feb 13 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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i don't think it works that way...

if you cain 1-5 skill like that, either you'll see one every weeks or the cap would be 99999, to make the game last long enough.
having .1~5 skillup somewhat often, while not being few thousands away from your goal is probably one of the best compromises...
#7 Feb 13 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with the whole number thing, I remember going thru stack upon stack of bolts skilling up crossbow to get the occasional .3 , ranged was far too expensive to skill for the sake of skilling lol and to be a good solo thf, capped marksman with bloody bolts was a must.
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#8 Feb 13 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm concerned about is if the skilling system is as you described in Morrowind, it may be difficult to quickly judge a player's level when inviting them to join a party.

For example, you may need a tank that needs to at least have 5 skills up at 200+ to be an effective tank. That means you need to check with the tank that he/she has all 5 skills at 200+. With FFXI, if you knew the player level and their weapon skill, that was basically all you needed to know. And for an experience party you would assume that their weapon skill would be at the cap (although you could still get a gimp player, because of level sync).

#9 Feb 13 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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There's really no telling at this point whether we're looking at a use-based system or a points-based system.
I kind of like use-based, because character growth is so intuitive. You use something more often, you get better at it. The general concept is so simple it's brilliant.

It's the specifics I'm not too fond of. Use-based systems end up giving 'levels' to everything. Something like, a melee weapon, works like a charm. Something like crowd control, does not.

Crowd control spells are binary, it either works or it doesn't. To create levels on something like this generally involves the hit and miss ratio, a higher skill is more likely to hit and a lower skill less likely. Unlike a buff, debuff, melee weapon or magic DPS, when crowd control is used it can't afford to miss. There ends up being this expectation of having these sorts of abilities pre-levelled before engaging in party play.

And that's really when there intuitive character growth begins to break down.
It's a mechanic intended for party play, that can't be leveled in a party setting.
It isn't even functionally feasible for solo play, meaning the great bulk of your leveling experiences with these types of abilities is corralling a single mob and spamming the ability non-stop for several hours on end.
#10 Feb 13 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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There's going to be some sort of experience points that will be used to level either weapons, skills/magic or a mixture of both. Instead of skilling up your sword skill, you might be skilling or leveling it up with experience points.
#11 Feb 13 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Pretty sure they've said there will not be an experience points system in the game. Anyone more knowledgeable about information on the game wanna find me a quote? ;)

Quote:
i don't think it works that way...

if you cain 1-5 skill like that, either you'll see one every weeks or the cap would be 99999, to make the game last long enough.
having .1~5 skillup somewhat often, while not being few thousands away from your goal is probably one of the best compromises...


Hate to make a WoW comparison (only MMO I've really played aside from FFXI), but that's what they do in WoW. You just increase the skill level cap, change the skill up formula. Very different combat system from FFXI, so it's not a great comparison. While in WoW you don't necessarily cap right away during your leveling experience, if you want to switch weapons, it levels up pretty quickly to bring you up to par so you're not gimped for too long with your new weapon.

Another thing that made FFXI's skill up system complicated is that it was based on the level of the enemy you were fighting, not YOUR current level of skill - so you had to find an enemy who had a level range equal to or slightly higher than your target weapon skill up range to ensure skill ups. It was impossible to skill up on enemies that would yield xp (as you'd never hit) or be worthwhile to farm in most cases (poor mob placement in an area, mobs that were easy to get to and not likely to kill you in packs weren't good for much more than skilling up on).

Anyways, we'll just have to wait and see. With a more "solo-friendly" take this time around (whatever that means to the makers of JRPGs, we'll find out eventually), I imagine the skill up formula will be similarly more friendly to cater (or pander, depending on your point of view) to more casual players.

Edited, Feb 13th 2010 5:22pm by dalm
#12 Feb 13 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Seeing those 0.3 skill gains accompanied with reaching a new level used to give me quite the dopamine kick. I'm up for something new, but I hope it's not ~too~ different.
#13 Feb 14 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Default
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I really like to know how much does learning multiple skills affect the skills leveling up speed. Since I'm planning to become a RDM just like in FFXI, I have to learn multiple skills to use both magic and sword.

According to the interview, it seems like it is possible to learn mulitple skill. However, it will be very difficult and extremely time consuming task.

Would it be like RDM in FFXI wich is All-rounder character but weak on everything?
#14 Feb 14 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
hexid wrote:
I really like to know how much does learning multiple skills affect the skills leveling up speed. Since I'm planning to become a RDM just like in FFXI, I have to learn multiple skills to use both magic and sword.

According to the interview, it seems like it is possible to learn mulitple skill. However, it will be very difficult and extremely time consuming task.

Would it be like RDM in FFXI wich is All-rounder character but weak on everything?


Probably. It's a phenomenon referred to as a "hybrid tax". I expect that an "RDM" in FFXIV will be a gladiator with a lantern shield. Exactly what mechanics will come into play that will determine the strength of your various spells are yet to be seen, but I would imagine that with a bit of flexibility you could choose one area and do it well with watered down access to other categories, but I doubt you'll end up an uber melee mage with buffs, debuffs and off-heals flying all over the place.
#15 Feb 14 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
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Essentially if that were the "levelling" system I could see a "RDM" working like this: (random numbers here) Say Gladiator gets up to 200 in sword , "WHM" gets 200 in cure and "BLM" gets 200 in thunder then a "RDM" would get 100-150 in each but maybe go up to 200 in certain debuffs where other magic classes have a lower level in them. That would balance the Mages out a bit more and make the RDM type not have to spend 3x as much time "levelling" as the other classes in the game.
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#16 Feb 14 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That would balance the Mages out a bit more and make the RDM type not have to spend 3x as much time "levelling" as the other classes in the game.



that's what I was mostly concerned about.....
#17 Feb 14 2010 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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My Speculation:

From the few things I've read I was kind of expecting something like 11's weapon skill ups, but each level affects a lot more than just your ability to smack things.

I'm curious to see how SE will prove us all wrong, lol.
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#18 Feb 15 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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My guess is it will be like ff9 where you equip a weapon with an ability on it gaining access to that ability and after leveling that ability you can equip it will ability points. So for Example- you equip a dagger with 'flee' on it, while equipped you have access to the ability flee, once learned you change to a staff with 'cure1' on it and use ability points which you probably gain from doing story line missions and equip 'flee'. Perhaps you could even use (AP) to equip stats so you learn (+10% hp) and equip it giving you a boost to your hp. This is how I imagine it will work.
#19 Feb 15 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My guess is it will be like ff9 where you equip a weapon with an ability on it gaining access to that ability and after leveling that ability you can equip it will ability points. So for Example- you equip a dagger with 'flee' on it, while equipped you have access to the ability flee, once learned you change to a staff with 'cure1' on it and use ability points which you probably gain from doing story line missions and equip 'flee'. Perhaps you could even use (AP) to equip stats so you learn (+10% hp) and equip it giving you a boost to your hp. This is how I imagine it will work.


Yup, my guess too and some skills will go passive if you change from one weapon/job to another due to that skill, say "flee", being weapon/job-specific while others like +10% HP might be global as in every weapon/job can equip it. Makes sense at least.


Edited, Feb 15th 2010 3:32pm by WhiteWabbit
#20 Feb 15 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
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My guess on how this will work is that skills will not only be weapon based, but sub-weapon based.
Hypothetical example:
Impale: Usable by all polearm type weapons
Penta-Thrust: Usable by Lance type only.
Pin Down: Usable by Halberd type only.

I could see this differentiating the classes as well.
Rapier type swords unlock and allow the RDM type spells/abilities.
******* swords unlock more DD type abilities.
Gladius swords unlock more defensive type abilties.
There would then be some generic abilities usable by all Swords or all Axes or whatever weapon, but there will be skills set to various sub-weapon sets.

You end up with general skills being narrowed down further and further by weapon specialization.
#21 Feb 15 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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If the skills are learned from specific weapons, then I hope the inventory management is better this time around. Otherwise I can see myself going through weapons like candy, buying stockpiles of different weapons and swapping them out as the abilities are learned.

Also, if there was an AP system to decide which abilities you can have active, how would the number of AP be detmined with no leveling system? It's more likely that you just have whole sets of abilities automatically active based solely on what weapon you're currently wielding.
#22 Feb 16 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Like I said you would gain AP by doing the missions in the game, by advancing through the story you would advance your character gaining AP. I doubt if you did a mission a second time such as helping a friend that you would gain more AP, there would probably be a set amount of AP one could obtain.
Of coarse this is just a guess but it sounds exciting.
#23 Feb 16 2010 at 2:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Was thinking and started to wonder how we would equip high level equipment since we won't be using level requirements for equipment. I'm guessing that we gain levels in that weapon category which determines what we could equip. Example: you have a sword with 10atk, while using the sword you level up you sword skill, in order to equip a sword with 150atk you would need a skill of lets just say 150 sword skill. Just a guess anyways.
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