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FFXIV and "The Cookie Cutter" way of doing thingsFollow

#1 Feb 13 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the things that really handicapped some of the experiences in FFXI were the uses of some jobs in different battles. I'm not specifically referring to leveling, in fact most of the problems occurred during missions. When CoP came out the term "Cookie Cutter Party" started becoming associated with pretty much anything involving fighting in the game, and it was way overused for it be considered anything other then a problem. Sometimes it was unfair (manaburn paries), but a lot of times it was a necessity to get things done with a standard party, and people took crap for it. There were many times when I was creating a group for a CoP mission and shouting in Jeuno or Whitegate, and someone would say he needed the mission. Unfortunately if that person wasn't one of the jobs needed for the mission I had to straight up deny them. Obviously it is possible to beat these missions with any job, but I'm not wasting 3 hours bringing a Beastmaster to the airship battle just to "attempt" to beat the mission and make him happy. I am going to make the best party possible, and I don't think SE gave us a lot of wiggle room when it came to this. I'm sure I have been lied to about a party being full because my job didn't fit for the mission or party and of course I am angry about it at the time, but I totally know where the group leader came from.

No matter how casual FFXIV will be, we all know there will be missions that take hours to complete, and a person shouldn't feel a burden because they want to make the best party, or because they are dragging the group down due to their own satisfaction. I'm sure a lot of people had a job like Dragoon leveled when CoP came out, and they were forced to either level a new job or wait days for a group nice enough to take a risk bringing a weaker job to the battlefield. Hopefully the fighting in FFXIV will make it so skill is much more valuable to a battle then job or equipment. That way the battles will be just as difficult, but everyone has the equal probability to win the battle no matter the job.
#2 Feb 13 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think manaburn parties are a good example to show how things were unfair; one of the only reasons they came up in the first place is because no one would invite black mages or non-healing summoners to parties anymore. At least, that's why I had to form them.

I do agree completely with the general point you are trying to make. While I think it should be necessary to require a diverse group of jobs to complete certain missions or quests, I definitely don't think it should be as picky as it was in many cases in FFXI. I had to level smn and blm up personally to finish CoP because a white mage was essentially useless in promies when I did them. I don't think SE should make it so any group of players can go finish a mission as easily as a more diversified, tactical group, but I also don't think it should be basically impossible to finish a mission without spending tons of money on items and losing a ton of exp (in FFXIV we still don't know the death penalty) just because your set up isn't ideal. There has to be a balance so that there is still that challenge to the game and makes players want to associate with other jobs. I think more wiggle room is a great way to put it.
#3 Feb 13 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with everything you stated to an extent. I agree that SE didn't give people enough wiggle room with setups, but a lot of the problem was because of understandable trust issues between the community. If I'm going to do a mission with a bunch of random people of course I want the best setup possible in order to increase my chances of completing the mission. This being said, the missions were just as doable with a regular setup.

SE can definitely do a better job in designing fights around a balanced effort between classes. That being said, there will always be a setup of classes that will make the fight easier to win. This doesn't mean that the dream setup is the only way to win, though. This happens more on FFXi then on any other MMO because you have the ability to change jobs on FFXI. On MMOS that do 1 job per character a dream setup is not as easily obtainable.

Edited, Feb 13th 2010 8:34pm by HocusP
#4 Feb 13 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bluefirefly wrote:
one of the only reasons they came up in the first place is because no one would invite black mages or non-healing summoners to parties anymore.
Except manaburns came first.
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#5 Feb 13 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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A lot of the problems were tied to the fairly significant class imbalances and one dimensional nature of the classes. A lot of the DD classes only dealt damage. A few of them could off tank a bit, but mostly they only dealt damage. When you only have one metric to judge performance by, it's a strong incentive for people to pick only the best class by that metric.

One way to encourage diversity in groups is to give classes buffs that don't stack with themselves. If warriors provided a damage buff to the group and monks provided an accuracy buff to the group, then parties would be less inclined to have two or more warriors or monks, and would instead take only 1 of each class. Unfortunately this does nothing to stop a cookie cutter setup of 6 different classes.
#6 Feb 13 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The direction of FFXI itself brought that upon itself.... Things were fine before ToAU when when had to fight mobs normally, do skill chains and magic burst and stuff. Even in our 75s. SE made melee burn possible with the release of ToAU... So the entire BLM-SMN hatred could be blame entirely on them.
#7 Feb 13 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
Ya, manaburns came before TP burns, and TP burns are what killed BLMs. It used to be that you couldn't get a BLM for a merit party because they were always in Sea. And I don't blame BLM for it any more than I blame MNK for bones parties. It's a fact in games where enemy weaknesses to damage type can be so pronounced that class <A> is borderline overpowered vs. a certain type of mob where class <B> is functionally useless. If anything, I would say that the segregation of jobs based on damage type is reason for SE to take a serious look at whether or not they want to duplicate that particular mechanic.

The cookie cutter way of doing things was meh, especially where CoP was involved. When you play a "hard" game that doesn't teach you much more than how to zerg a single target while leveling, all of a sudden having to work with an "unconventional" strategy to get the job done was somehow beyond the reach of most players. I cleared the first three promyvions with groups that, based on the expectations of the community, had no chance to succeed. The static that I wound up doing the majority of CoP missions with consisted of what we had. We were fortunate that most members had a certain amount of flexibility in that they could change jobs for a particular mission if we felt it would be a benefit, but it was a far cry from the tank + SMN/RNG x 4 + healer setup so many other people felt was the only way to get things done.

I expect that in FFXIV, there's still going to be some incarnation of the cookie cutter mentality because when it comes to groups, it's about what works. How far the mechanics push the insistence on cookie cutter setups (be it character builds or party configurations) is up to SE as much as it's up to the players.
#8 Feb 13 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
one of the only reasons they came up in the first place is because no one would invite black mages or non-healing summoners to parties anymore.
Except manaburns came first.


Manaburns came before regular parties? Interesting.
#9 Feb 13 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Bluefirefly wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
one of the only reasons they came up in the first place is because no one would invite black mages or non-healing summoners to parties anymore.
Except manaburns came first.

Manaburns came before regular parties? Interesting.

No... manaburns came before people stopped inviting black mages and non-healing summoners to parties, which is what would logically follow from what you had said.

When manaburns first appeared on the scene black mages were still very much in demand for parties; they were considered one of the necessities. Blms didn't form manaburn because they couldn't get invites, they formed them because the exp was better than what a normal party could get. As a bard who leveled extensively in manaburns pre-CoP and pre-RNG nerf, I can say that with certainty.
#10 Feb 13 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
Manaburns came before regular parties? Interesting.


No... manaburns came before people stopped inviting black mages and non-healing summoners to parties, which is what would logically follow from what you had said.

When manaburns first appeared on the scene black mages were still very much in demand for parties; they were considered one of the necessities. Blms didn't form manaburn because they couldn't get invites, they formed them because the exp was better than what a normal party could get. As a bard who leveled extensively in manaburns pre-CoP and pre-RNG nerf, I can say that with certainty.


I am wrong about the reason mana-burn parties were formed, but I just wanted it to be clear I wasn't trying to say TP parties were formed first. I guess I was going off of my experience which was that I was forced to mana-burn starting at very low levels with my black mage and my summoner due to no invites because I would be "useless." I think this may have been after the initial mana-burn party phase where the exp really was better. Thanks for clearing it up for me.
#11 Feb 13 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The direction of FFXI itself brought that upon itself.... Things were fine before ToAU when when had to fight mobs normally, do skill chains and magic burst and stuff. Even in our 75s. SE made melee burn possible with the release of ToAU... So the entire BLM-SMN hatred could be blame entirely on them.


Keep telling yourself that. Melee burn was possible before ToAU, and Monks were doing just that in the KRT long before ToAU came out. At the same time, Rangers and 1h DD's were in sky killing decorative weapons for even chain #20's+. The problem was worse than when ToAU came in, which partially fixed the problem by allowing more DD's the chance to get as good exp as Monks got in KRT.

ToAU is not the reason that game had problems- ToAU was the saving grace more than anything.
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#12 Feb 14 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hopefully the fighting in FFXIV will make it so skill is much more valuable to a battle then job or equipment.


Here here.

I feel like MMO playerbases have been beating this drum for a while now. Only to be met with, time and time again, the same dilapidated design concepts of yesteryear with new and prettier packaging. The genre needs to shake off this stagnation if it hopes to come into it's own in the light of it's newfound popularity. Squeenix, with it's history of taking some of the more idiotic MMO conventions and turning them on their ear in XI (Races only being able to level select classes, for one) seems to at least have their hearts in the right place.

It's a longshot, but here's to hoping.





Edited, Feb 14th 2010 2:38am by Zemzelette
#13 Feb 14 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:

Hopefully the fighting in FFXIV will make it so skill is much more valuable to a battle then job or equipment.


Here here.

I feel like MMO playerbases have been beating this drum for a while now. Only to be met with, time and time again, the same dilapidated design concepts of yesteryear with new and prettier packaging. The genre needs to shake off this stagnation if it hopes to come into it's own in the light of it's newfound popularity. Squeenix, with it's history of taking some of the more idiotic MMO conventions and turning them on their ear in XI (Races only being able to level select classes, for one) seems to at least have their hearts in the right place.

It's a longshot, but here's to hoping.


Sadly, the last MMO I played where skill was the REAL deciding factor was UO. Of course, things may have changed.... this was "back in the day" UO.
#14 Feb 14 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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ToAU is the problem. Before ToAU, burn parties were not the norm. Yes it was beginning. But majority of parties still had to exp traditionally. And KRT was never a safe place. ToAU, instead of promoting skill-chain or balance party play, it encourage melee burning to the point of no return. Instead of giving BLM more reason to be in parties, they just rid the job's usefulness completely. Mana burn became the only way a BLM could exp, instead of an alternative.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 2:50am by jpenguin
#15 Feb 14 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
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ToAU is the problem. Before ToAU, burn parties were not the norm. Yes it was beginning. But majority of parties still had to exp traditionally. And KRT was never a safe place. ToAU, instead of promoting skill-chain or balance party play, it encourage melee burning to the point of no return. Instead of giving BLM more reason to be in parties, they just rid the job's usefulness completely. Mana burn became the only way a BLM could exp, instead of an alternative.


They were the norm for specific jobs. That is much worse. Some jobs getting double or triple the amount of exp others are getting? That is far worse than what we have now. ToAU went and fixed this.

There was no going back even before ToAU came out. Don't blame the expansion for the mistakes of the past.
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#16 Feb 14 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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Sloannn wrote:
Hopefully the fighting in FFXIV will make it so skill is much more valuable to a battle then job or equipment.
The thing is, with DD's, skill really does make a huge difference. As somebody who has leveled a whole lot of different DD's, I can say there aren't these huge discrepancies that people talk about. Sure SAM is a great job, but why is it I can keep up with somebody better geared and on a "better" job than mine (thf,drk,mnk,whatever)? Sure every single DD has a certain advantage in a different fight (making them all equal in every scenario would just be plain boring tbh - especially when the option of changing jobs is so easy) but I've kept up easily with the "better" DD's due to ws-ing right on 100tp, using abilities quickly and wisely, engaging quickly, etc. all these little things make a big difference. I invite any DD to any mission if I know they're a good player.

Cookie-cutter setups will appear in any game no matter how balanced you try to make it. People will eventually work out the mechanics and exploit them in any possible way they can do be the best. But they're cookie cutter because they're easier not because they're the only way. As Aurelius said, he beat CoP with an unconventional setup - because you don't have to use the cookie cutter setups. With skilled DD's you don't need to go with the easy option. I hope everybody realises that literally any combination of the 'DD' classes can create max-exp at the Colibri camp.

Though I do admit that the playerbase did eventually realise that BLM is blah for partying with. Which is sad, but, it's still one of the most popular jobs (as far as I've seen) in endgame events.

But really, skill makes a huge difference between players whether you notice it or not - but parsers/gear checks tell me that skill means far more than job/gear on DD's - some are just easier than others.
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#17 Feb 14 2010 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
LordFaramir wrote:

But really, skill makes a huge difference between players whether you notice it or not - but parsers/gear checks tell me that skill means far more than job/gear on DD's - some are just easier than others.


I think the point is that the slow-motion combat system of FFXI in conjunction with long cooldowns and limited selection of abilities means that the gap between a skilled player and a mediocre player isn't nearly so large in FFXI as it can be in games where you not only have way more abilities to juggle but a much more narrow window of time in which to decide what ability you are going to use next. It sounds like the FFXIV combat system will be much more involved than FFXI, which will widen the gap between mediocre and skilled.
#18 Feb 14 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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One of the things that really handicapped some of the experiences in FFXI were the uses of some jobs in different battles. I'm not specifically referring to leveling, in fact most of the problems occurred during missions. When CoP came out the term "Cookie Cutter Party" started becoming associated with pretty much anything involving fighting in the game, and it was way overused for it be considered anything other then a problem. Sometimes it was unfair (manaburn paries), but a lot of times it was a necessity to get things done with a standard party, and people took crap for it. There were many times when I was creating a group for a CoP mission and shouting in Jeuno or Whitegate, and someone would say he needed the mission. Unfortunately if that person wasn't one of the jobs needed for the mission I had to straight up deny them. Obviously it is possible to beat these missions with any job, but I'm not wasting 3 hours bringing a Beastmaster to the airship battle just to "attempt" to beat the mission and make him happy. I am going to make the best party possible, and I don't think SE gave us a lot of wiggle room when it came to this. I'm sure I have been lied to about a party being full because my job didn't fit for the mission or party and of course I am angry about it at the time, but I totally know where the group leader came from.

No matter how casual FFXIV will be, we all know there will be missions that take hours to complete, and a person shouldn't feel a burden because they want to make the best party, or because they are dragging the group down due to their own satisfaction. I'm sure a lot of people had a job like Dragoon leveled when CoP came out, and they were forced to either level a new job or wait days for a group nice enough to take a risk bringing a weaker job to the battlefield. Hopefully the fighting in FFXIV will make it so skill is much more valuable to a battle then job or equipment. That way the battles will be just as difficult, but everyone has the equal probability to win the battle no matter the job.


Every time someone mentions CoP and Cookie Cutter Parties I roll my eyes, because the blame of the difficulty was always pointed at "the missions requiring certain jobs" instead of the players themselves.

Yes it might be easier if you bring certain jobs, but the people stuck in the Cookie Cutter Box think that when they get these jobs it's a sure win. "Allright this is going to be easy. Now I can lay back and enjoy the ride. No need to spend too much money on meds either. Hurry and rush in guys, it's going to be a piece of cake." And what happens? People still fail over and over, because they just are bad players wanting to win with no effort. And then start complaining even more and new people joining the CoP missions start thinking:


"OMFG I really need certain jobs for this and then it still will be bad. Inviting a BST to the Airship Battle? No f*cking way man, we're going to lose."


Another thing that bothers me is that people are happily shouting in Jeuno to invite people for the missions as long as they can find the right job. You don't know these people. You don't know if they're good players or @#%^tards, if they're willing to use meds or just plain cheap bastards, have several sets of gear ready or are going for the hobo look. If I got missions, stuff, w/e to do that has some difficulty: I do it with my linkshells and/or friendlist.

I really hope FFXIV will have tough missions. I really, really do. Lots of whiners about how hard it is. Because do you know what's worse than frustration?

B O R E D O M

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 5:32pm by RedGalka
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#19 Feb 14 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The real issue is that the game was set up poorly in the first place. Manaburn parties were a natural progression of "how can I get exp quicker". After someone figured it out and word spread, it was only natural that they'd become the norm.

The game was set up such a way that some classes excelled at certain thing. Worse still, those classes didn't need other classes to do their thing. Manaburn, arrowburn, TP Burn, Astral Burn etc etc. The game mechanics never should have allowed this type of thing.
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#20 Feb 14 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the reason for people having a hard time finding groups in FFXI was three fold. First, most people played melee damage dealers. Second, SE didn't balance the jobs well...which is understandable considering the number of jobs there are. Finally the biggest thing in my opinion is the design of the game pigeon holes jobs into certain roles and pretty much only that role.

That final point I think is a consequence of SE's creativity. They brought in so many classes that have to be different in some way and then they thought of different mobs and boss fights to mix things up. Some of those mobs and jobs just don't mix (mandies and ninjas) and even though I enjoyed the fact that different mobs take more damage from different weapons and magic this also played a huge role. If you're grinding on crabs you're going to want a drg to poke it and a blm to blast it to death along with someone to dispel the various buffs they have. If I remember correctly drk was often taken over drg because drk had weapon skills that better fit most mobs. I think for the most part jobs with the most versatility became the most desired.

One thing that WoW has going for it is so many of its classes can be placed into various roles.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 9:55am by Yogtheterrible
#21 Feb 14 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I think the reason for people having a hard time finding groups in FFXI was three fold. First, most people played melee damage dealers. Second, SE didn't balance the jobs well...which is understandable considering the number of jobs there are. Finally the biggest thing in my opinion is the design of the game pigeon holes jobs into certain roles and pretty much only that role.


While all of those factors are a part of the problem, I don't think they are the cause of it.

1) The search system is not flexible enough. You can't search party on more than one job at time.

2) You need certain jobs to perform in specific roles, or the exp will not acceptable (RDM/BRD/COR/PLD/NIN). There will most likely always be one role missing when you're making a group.

3) The penalty for the level gap becoming too high is too severe. If there is a 3+- level players in your party, the exp will take a big hit. So you're pretty much stuck to looking people in very specific level range (Level sync took care of this to some extent).

4) Ignorance and general laziness. If you haven't bothered to put up a search comment, you're not getting an invite from me (if there are more people looking as well).

5) It's a hassle to invite replacements. Getting to the camp takes time, and the other people in the party should be able to go on for more than an hour so the rep will get at least some exp. If it was easier to get to camp, we'd see a lot more invites to replace people (and it would be more worthwhile to do so than before, too).
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#22 Feb 14 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sadly, the last MMO I played where skill was the REAL deciding factor was UO. Of course, things may have changed.... this was "back in the day" UO.


/nod.

And don't forget EvE Online too. Of course, both of these games were willing to stick it to the cannon D&D, by being skill-based instead of typical classes (in EvE's case, a clever combination of the two). I wonder if that has something to do with it?


Quote:
The thing is, with DD's, skill really does make a huge difference.


Please don't take all this talk of skill as an attempt to belittle the expertise of your average MMO player nowadays. I'm not implying modern MMOs are face-rollers, in fact I'd say they're probably more difficult now than they've ever been. I'm not implying a player's choices don't affect the outcome of their success, just that this is less so than what I've seen in the past and largely prefer.

To provide an example, in your modern whitebread fantasy MMO a newbie player has no hope of taking on a higher level mob. In something like, EvE Online, a newer player is capable of defeating a veteran player in battle. The difficulty of your choices can still be the same, it's just the mathematics of the game alter how much impact they have.



Edited, Feb 14th 2010 4:02pm by Zemzelette
#23 Feb 14 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
It's a fact in games where enemy weaknesses to damage type can be so pronounced that class <A> is borderline overpowered vs. a certain type of mob where class <B> is functionally useless. If anything, I would say that the segregation of jobs based on damage type is reason for SE to take a serious look at whether or not they want to duplicate that particular mechanic.


I'm kinda hoping that XIV will retain the strong mob strengths/weaknesses, but allow the various jobs enough flexibility to take advantage of them. Having deep mob strengths and weaknesses adds a lot to the gameplay, but does **** all if the players aren't capable of capitalizing on it. From the looks of the descriptions of the Pugilist weapons, it looks like it might happen.

Related: I'm also hoping to see all elemental magic be of equal strength, so casting the "correct" spell would be significantly better than just casting whichever is the highest level.
#24 Feb 14 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:

To provide an example, in your modern whitebread fantasy MMO a newbie player has no hope of taking on a higher level mob. In something like, EvE Online, a newer player is capable of defeating a veteran player in battle.


EVE-UNI zergfleet FTW.
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#25 Feb 14 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
CapnCrass wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
It's a fact in games where enemy weaknesses to damage type can be so pronounced that class <A> is borderline overpowered vs. a certain type of mob where class <B> is functionally useless. If anything, I would say that the segregation of jobs based on damage type is reason for SE to take a serious look at whether or not they want to duplicate that particular mechanic.


I'm kinda hoping that XIV will retain the strong mob strengths/weaknesses, but allow the various jobs enough flexibility to take advantage of them. Having deep mob strengths and weaknesses adds a lot to the gameplay, but does **** all if the players aren't capable of capitalizing on it. From the looks of the descriptions of the Pugilist weapons, it looks like it might happen.


There are a lot of things developers can do that add depth and complexity to gameplay. That's not enough, however. The question on what mechanics to implement has to be a two part question.

1) What are the benefits of implementing this particular feature/mechanic.
2) What are the potential consequences.

It's not the fact that certain damage/magic types can do more against one kind of mob and less against another...it's how big the spread is. IMO, the spread in FFXI was too great. For people who enjoy playing a damage role (which, frankly, is the vast majority of MMO players), bigger numbers is almost always synonymous with more fun. When you find yourself feeling fully useless against a particular mob type and the community as a whole agrees that you are, the game is broken. Playing an RNG vs. bones SUCKED. I could get reasonable damage using Holy Bolts for regular shots but the delicious bits like Barrage and any WS were nothing short of disappointing.

As I see it, SE could preserve the concept and just tone it down a bit. Encouraging diversity is great. Creating a situation where a particular class is functionally unable to contribute in certain areas is not. You reference Pugilist...what about the other classes? I'd prefer not to see a setup where you are virtually required to level a particular class in order to contribute.
#26 Feb 14 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Every time someone mentions CoP and Cookie Cutter Parties I roll my eyes, because the blame of the difficulty was always pointed at "the missions requiring certain jobs" instead of the players themselves.

Yes it might be easier if you bring certain jobs, but the people stuck in the Cookie Cutter Box think that when they get these jobs it's a sure win. "Allright this is going to be easy. Now I can lay back and enjoy the ride. No need to spend too much money on meds either. Hurry and rush in guys, it's going to be a piece of cake." And what happens? People still fail over and over, because they just are bad players wanting to win with no effort. And then start complaining even more and new people joining the CoP missions start thinking:


"OMFG I really need certain jobs for this and then it still will be bad. Inviting a BST to the Airship Battle? No f*cking way man, we're going to lose."


Another thing that bothers me is that people are happily shouting in Jeuno to invite people for the missions as long as they can find the right job. You don't know these people. You don't know if they're good players or @#%^tards, if they're willing to use meds or just plain cheap bastards, have several sets of gear ready or are going for the hobo look. If I got missions, stuff, w/e to do that has some difficulty: I do it with my linkshells and/or friendlist.

I really hope FFXIV will have tough missions. I really, really do. Lots of whiners about how hard it is. Because do you know what's worse than frustration?


The classes in FFXI were designed poorly in many ways. Bad enough that a mediocre Samurai with average equipment could out-damage an elite Dragoon with good gear. I finished all the missions without my LS/Friendlist in normal time and I always did it the cookie cutter way. Your example of people going in with minimal effort to battle is a pretty awful example, because if I failed it wasn't based on being unprepared, it was because I had the wrong jobs for the battle, and I'm sure others agree. Like you said, these were HARD battles, and usually the only way to win is to be over-prepared. Your absolutely correct that if there is only 1 person to fill my 6th group spot and it's a BST or a job that is going to jeopardize my chances of winning, I will wait another hour to see if an appropriate job is looking to beat it.

You are exactly whom I was referring to in the OP, no offense. You're the Puppetmaster who may have incredible gear and have all the mist melts or w/e (it's been 3 years), but I'm not risking the hour walk up Riverne Site with a gimped party. You will complain to me about how I'm always doing things the boring and unexciting way, and I will simply say "yes, yes I am". I said in the OP, I realize this is the wrong thing to do, and I think it's SE's fault that we all feel the need for this. If I was that Puppetmaster I would totally understand that a group wouldn't want to drag my gimp *** along to a difficult battle where I am deemed useless, so I will level another job.

What Zemzelette said was a perfect example. With enough skill a low level can beat a high level in UO or EVE. A level 75 Puppetmaster would probably get destroyed by a level 60 Ninja, and it has nothing to do with skill. It's about one job being overpowered and another being weak. Honestly I'm sure there were some awesome players I passed up on doing ToAU and CoP missions, but I don't regret doing it because I still created a party that won the battle.
#27 Feb 14 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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wrong jobs for the battle

I dont believe in this it doesn't exist in my book.


The Cookie Cutter in FFXI is by far my biggest beef with the game.
I am a CoP era DRG and proud to say I completed it with DRG ONRY at the time.
Could have happened sonner had I been something else at the time im sure.
Dedication is what brought me success.
actually none of my 75s are popular jobs when it comes to to xp pts 12-74
when I leveled them.
NIN tanks and the biased war/nin fans of the TOAU era disgust me.
so do smn burners as if its owed to them now to have other jobs at there mercy to get the fastest xp.
Now WG is filled with n00bs who cant play there jobs.
Its aggravating to see players who wouldn't rate to be where they are now accomplish the nerfed missions and fights and still cry about the difficulty or drop rate.
I'm all about having a good time on the game don't get me wrong but I want credit for my hard work and I want it to show if another didnt put in as much sweat in his gimpness.
otherwise all seasoned players accomplishments lose value forever.


Edited, Feb 14th 2010 5:58pm by goblinpimp

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 6:01pm by goblinpimp
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#28 Feb 14 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I remember an epic eve cheapfleet formed in the rookie channel. About 15 people in 2 groups or something. We took out a couple of cruisers in our Rifters, and knocked out some battle ship NPC's that couldn't hit us. Good times.

at any rate, the larger issue here is that people can't seem to function with non cookie cutter parties.

That and people don't trust others to understand their jobs.

As a blackmage, if the party isn't doing skill chains but complains about things like where I'm standing, it really ****** me off. In the end, there are so many preconceptions about what a person should be doing to do the "optimal" amount of damage that it really is sad and difficult to get things done.



anyhow, in the end it's not the issue of jobs out doing other jobs, it's more that other people can't seem to function without doing the absolute mathematical optimal amount of exp / hour.

one of the jobs I would love to play not as a tank would be ninja. I think that it would be fun to have a ninja and blm in the same party to see if I can't find out if it's better to have the two together to adjust elemental resistance. but that'll never happen.
#29 Feb 14 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
Sloannn wrote:
The classes in FFXI were designed poorly in many ways. Bad enough that a mediocre Samurai with average equipment could out-damage an elite Dragoon with good gear. I finished all the missions without my LS/Friendlist in normal time and I always did it the cookie cutter way. Your example of people going in with minimal effort to battle is a pretty awful example, because if I failed it wasn't based on being unprepared, it was because I had the wrong jobs for the battle, and I'm sure others agree. Like you said, these were HARD battles, and usually the only way to win is to be over-prepared. Your absolutely correct that if there is only 1 person to fill my 6th group spot and it's a BST or a job that is going to jeopardize my chances of winning, I will wait another hour to see if an appropriate job is looking to beat it.


You're not the only person in a party. If you've got 6 people who are adequately prepared with consumables and an understanding of the fights and you still need a cookie cutter setup to get them done, there's a problem at play that has nothing to do with SE.

Quote:
You are exactly whom I was referring to in the OP, no offense. You're the Puppetmaster who may have incredible gear and have all the mist melts or w/e (it's been 3 years), but I'm not risking the hour walk up Riverne Site with a gimped party. You will complain to me about how I'm always doing things the boring and unexciting way, and I will simply say "yes, yes I am". I said in the OP, I realize this is the wrong thing to do, and I think it's SE's fault that we all feel the need for this. If I was that Puppetmaster I would totally understand that a group wouldn't want to drag my gimp *** along to a difficult battle where I am deemed useless, so I will level another job.


That's all well and good...until I see you post about the strength of the FFXI community, which I'm sure after that little commentary you wouldn't be so inclined to do.
#30 Feb 14 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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You're not the only person in a party. If you've got 6 people who are adequately prepared with consumables and an understanding of the fights and you still need a cookie cutter setup to get them done, there's a problem at play that has nothing to do with SE.


Where did I say I needed a cookie cutter party? I said that's what I preferred, and the way I beat the promyvions or airship battle says nothing about my skill level. Those battles were harder then 64 people mindlessly beating on Kirin in sky, and no matter how easily you beat it, everyone considered them difficult. If I asked someone if I could join their CoP group and the party was weak I'm not going to leave the group, but that is why I made my own groups for those events, so I could go into the battle with the best cast of jobs. How is this any different then letting someone go from their job, it is with the best possible interest of the company in mind. I leveled with any group available, but when you are taking a 3 hour chunk of the day for a battle that left you with all or none, why should I feel obligated to risk taking someone along who is less effective.

Quote:

That's all well and good...until I see you post about the strength of the FFXI community, which I'm sure after that little commentary you wouldn't be so inclined to do.


Excellent, take one example of me going against what is good and respectful, and assume that I am a burden to the community. I helped a ton of people in FFXI, whether it was a good friend, a linkshell member or a random person shouting in town; if I had spare time I was all for giving a hand. But of course the one instance where I am selfish (along with hundreds of other players who don't like to waste their own time) I am an example of the FFXI community. Way to generalize, I commend you sir.
#31 Feb 14 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol at people saying (tp)-burn parties didn't exist until ToAU, or that they weren't commonplace until ToAU. Moon, Sky, and KRT were always filled with burn parties.

On the topic of fights that "needed cookie cutter set ups":
An example of fights that were done wrong: 4-2 Ouryu, 8-3 pots. I had a lot of trouble getting these fights done. After many, many loses I eventually just had them manaburned.

An example of fights that were done right: 6-3(?) Ultima/Omega

I completed every COP mission, sans the first three promys, as a thief. And I very much held my own with every mission(sans pots).

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 9:30pm by Deadgye
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#32 Feb 14 2010 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Every job should not be capable of filling any role. That would make the jobs boring and bland. "Cookie-cutter" parties will form, but hopefully there is a wide variety in the jobs that can be taken.
#33 Feb 14 2010 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:

But really, skill makes a huge difference between players whether you notice it or not - but parsers/gear checks tell me that skill means far more than job/gear on DD's - some are just easier than others.


I think the point is that the slow-motion combat system of FFXI in conjunction with long cooldowns and limited selection of abilities means that the gap between a skilled player and a mediocre player isn't nearly so large in FFXI as it can be in games where you not only have way more abilities to juggle but a much more narrow window of time in which to decide what ability you are going to use next. It sounds like the FFXIV combat system will be much more involved than FFXI, which will widen the gap between mediocre and skilled.
Most of those type of mmo's I see tend to be more of a... spam your best ability and easy-victory types. Or at least spam a group of abilities. FFXI combat may be slower but you have to react quickly to push your job to the limit.

About the earlier comment of an elite DRG being beaten by a mediocre SAM, the system is definitely not that unbalanced. Speaking as a DRG and a SAM, SAM's advantage isn't that large over DRG's, and thats before you even factor in the Wyvern damage - or the fact that the Wyvern can become the most MP efficient healer in the game. If the mediocre SAM is bad (there are a lot of bad sams) and the DRG is clever, the DRG will easily dominate the SAM. I dont think people realise the huge level of difference between a good and a bad player, maybe it's just my server, but it becomes painfully obvious in a parser.
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#34 Feb 14 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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mpmaley wrote:
Every job should not be capable of filling any role. That would make the jobs boring and bland. "Cookie-cutter" parties will form, but hopefully there is a wide variety in the jobs that can be taken.


This is what I was trying to say earlier in my poorly formed post. I think it makes the game more fun and personal when there are things that only your job can do. That being said, I agree completely that the balance needs to be made so that the Cookie-Cutter parties are not necessary. They will indeed always form because no matter how you look at it, there will probably always be a "best way" to do things and an "optimal set-up" for specific missions. This is because your enemies must also change. It would be boring to fight the same bosses over and over for missions and kill the storyline. SE just needs to make it so people won't rely as heavily on these ideas because of the odds of other set-ups failing. The gap needs to be closed somewhat, but I wouldn't say completely. That would most assuredly take all fun and anticipation out of the game.

Besides, if every job could fill any role, why would it even matter what job you were? Wouldn't that mean that the jobs were so similar there wouldn't be any more fun playing one job than another? This may be a bad example, but to try and illustrate my point. Let's say, yeah, black mages can do massive amounts of damage right off the bat, but they also use mp and cannot take heavy hits from an enemy. In contrast, a thief cannot do as much damage at one time, but with evasion and weapon skills can handle similar enemies with the same amount of ease. Jobs need to be different while not eliminating the consequences of choosing one job over another. Every job should have its pro's and cons, the hard part is weighing them out so that we don't have the same issue as RDM vs. PUP.

I think arguments can be made on all sides for manaburns, tp burns, and regular parties. If you think about it, there were probably just as many manaburn parties as tp burn parties, and they utilized the pros and cons of the jobs that were doing them. I can't honestly say for sure since I've never played a DD character all the way through, but I somewhat doubt manaburn parties were exceeding tp burn parties in exp to a huge extent, if at all, and vice versa. This, however, is not the main argument I am trying to make, so if I'm wrong, ignore that part. SE tried to even out the differences, but as people were saying, the issues were probably far too close to the base to completely eliminate them.
#35 Feb 14 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing is, no matter how balanced SE will make a game, the playerbase will decide what's the best and what's the worst. For example PUP really is a great job. It can function as a great healer, good in kited battles, and certainly a solid DD with the correct attachments. A very versatile and underrated job. Look at tiers in SSB for example, they get changed without any change in the gameplay mechanics actually occurring. People will inevitably min/max and everything to work out the "best" job or simply look at the trends, for example how sam is the be-all-end-all DD of the times. Well, in FFXI they were actually updated but they aren't miles above every other DD like people think.
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#36 Feb 14 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Mmmmmm.
The Armoury system is flexible enough to create Discipline of Magic and War hybrids. That is to say, Gladiator has specific abilities a character can learn by leveling the class, but someone leveling Gladiator is not limited to using only those abilities. To some extent, what's a 'class' is not a fixed thing, so it's impossible to structure balance around that. You end up balancing abilities individually instead.

So it's not really about Gladiator, or Lancer, or Thaumaturge.
It's about Red Lotus Blade, Jump, and Fire.

Whether or not this begets cookie cutters of the fanbase's own making is all in the math, which despite the seemingly fatalistic pessimism can have it's effect minimized (and your choices maximized) to the point specific combination have little tangible benefit. But even at it's worst your never completely SoL by virtue of your class (although you might have to grind a class you hate to access the 'flavor of the week' ability).

It's worth mentioning,
that sounds an awful lot like it might undermine the individuality of classes, but that's not always the case.
Pure skill-based systems (ex: Ultima Online), that don't even have classes to speak of, often have the problem of the holy trinity breaking down. But there's also systems that marry class/skill-based (ex: Final Fantasy Tactics) and manage to have some individuality cake and flexibly eat it too by setting some limitations on what kinds of abilities you can mix or how many you can have active at once. By virtue of having classes and allowing war/magic hybrids, it seems XIV's heading somewhere in that direction.


Edited, Feb 15th 2010 12:16am by Zemzelette
#37 Feb 14 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
You reference Pugilist...what about the other classes?


That's the big question. If all of the classes are capable of adapting to the situation (provided the player is prepared to do so), the larger-magnitude strengths/weaknesses will reward those players (and their groups) that are aware of and capitalize on the mob's weaknesses. If some of the classes are incapable of performing well against certain targets (and I don't think there's a better example than RNG vs. bones), it'll be just as unbalanced as it is in XI.
#38 Feb 14 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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CapnCrass wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
You reference Pugilist...what about the other classes?


That's the big question. If all of the classes are capable of adapting to the situation (provided the player is prepared to do so), the larger-magnitude strengths/weaknesses will reward those players (and their groups) that are aware of and capitalize on the mob's weaknesses. If some of the classes are incapable of performing well against certain targets (and I don't think there's a better example than RNG vs. bones), it'll be just as unbalanced as it is in XI.
Unless you take into account the fact that RNG can stay out of the aoe range of their particularly nasty moves (AoE damage + blind, or the much worse AoE Drain). :p Just a nitpick though.
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
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#39 Feb 15 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Default
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shintasama, in response to Raelix wrote:
That post was soo bad I'm not completely sure that I didn't die from a brain aneurysm last night and having to reacknowledge it's existence is some sort of cruel metaphysical joke in the afterlife to punish me for my sins.


rofl
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#40 Feb 15 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Good
Many different things to respond to here...

Sloannn wrote:
why should I feel obligated to risk taking someone along who is less effective.


That's the nature of PUGs in general. If you can't draw on your own network of friends to get the job done, you're taking your chances no matter who you bring. You said in an earlier post that if you failed it was because you brought the wrong jobs. I'm saying you brought the wrong people. So many CoP missions had a little trick or a gimmick that you could use to tone down the difficulty (anima in Promyvion, etc.) SE could have done a lot more to reduce the community preference for cookie cutter setups, but the community is as much to blame as SE. Too many people confusing patience and diligence for skill becoming altogether too unwilling to adapt to new situations were more to blame for the CoP fiasco than anything else.

LordFaramir wrote:
Most of those type of mmo's I see tend to be more of a... spam your best ability and easy-victory types. Or at least spam a group of abilities. FFXI combat may be slower but you have to react quickly to push your job to the limit.


I disagree. FFXI combat featured a very limited set of abilities on very long cooldowns with oodles of time between actions to stop and plan compared to other MMOs. FFXI combat is a bit of activity and a whole lot of spectator mode. It's a lot easier to execute when you've got extended gaps of time waiting on TP and/or the aforementioned long cooldowns to observe and plan.

Bluefirefly wrote:
I think it makes the game more fun and personal when there are things that only your job can do.


It also creates barriers. I'm hoping that the diversity allowed by the FFXIV armory system will enable people to customize their character and avoid a lot of the jobism that was present in FFXI. I'm not expecting to see uber characters running around with hybrid tax examptions able to fill every role in a group simultaneously, but the whole idea of having to level an entirely new job for one spell or ability sucked.

CapnCrass wrote:
That's the big question. If all of the classes are capable of adapting to the situation (provided the player is prepared to do so), the larger-magnitude strengths/weaknesses will reward those players (and their groups) that are aware of and capitalize on the mob's weaknesses. If some of the classes are incapable of performing well against certain targets (and I don't think there's a better example than RNG vs. bones), it'll be just as unbalanced as it is in XI.


That's why I'd rather see the whole mob strength/weakness aspect toned down if not removed entirely. I can live with toned down. I can't live with being told that my prefered class can't contribute to a particular encounter because I'm best suited to producing <damage type A> which just so happens to be the one type of damage the targets in said encounter are very strong against. As an example, a solution to the RNG vs. bones situation would have been to make it so that the holy damage component of holy bolts also applied to Barrage and added a component to WS damage. RNG still would have taken a hit vs. bones relative to other jobs but it would have been such a massive hit.

Unfortunately, SE never seemed interested in making those kinds of tweaks and in those rare cases where they made much needed adjustments, the length of time between the community's awareness that something had to change and the changes actually being made was always too long. Way too long. My main hope is that the armory system will address this and make it so that SE adjusts weapons/abilities instead of classes so you don't suddenly find your progression efforts for the last six months have been rendered functionally obsolete by a devastating nerf or a batch of new content for which your preferred job is grossly unsuited.
#41 Feb 15 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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My main hope is that the armory system will address this and make it so that SE adjusts weapons/abilities instead of classes so you don't suddenly find your progression efforts for the last six months have been rendered functionally obsolete by a devastating nerf or a batch of new content for which your preferred job is grossly unsuited.

That can still happen tho. Imagine if I have been training my axe skill for 6 months then suddenly the axe got nerfed. Then, my progression efforts for the last six months would have been rendered functionally obsolete. I wouldn't be able to pick up a new weapon type and use it on high level game play. Since my level is somewhat tied to my axe skill.
#42 Feb 15 2010 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
jpenguin wrote:
Quote:
My main hope is that the armory system will address this and make it so that SE adjusts weapons/abilities instead of classes so you don't suddenly find your progression efforts for the last six months have been rendered functionally obsolete by a devastating nerf or a batch of new content for which your preferred job is grossly unsuited.

That can still happen tho. Imagine if I have been training my axe skill for 6 months then suddenly the axe got nerfed. Then, my progression efforts for the last six months would have been rendered functionally obsolete. I wouldn't be able to pick up a new weapon type and use it on high level game play. Since my level is somewhat tied to my axe skill.


I don't mean nerfing an entire weapon category...I mean particular aspects of a particular weapon if SE determines that a certain combination of abilities is overpowered.
#43 Feb 15 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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There will always be min-maxers and as such, there will always be "best" methods, which therefore imply that others are "not as good", even if they are comparable.

Blame the sheep mentality, blame people who don't want to "try new things", blame imbalancing, blame whatever you like, this will always be so in any multiplayer game. As soon as someone who wants to succeed at a particular thing engages in said thing with one or more others, said someone will tend to look for the group of people who will give them the best chances of success.

Let's say I'm starting tryouts for an 11 man pickup football team this weekend and I'm looking at some potential people I can add to my team to fill a position...

One is a Navy SEAL who happens to be a bodybuilder in his spare time.
One is an aerobics instructor who played quarterback in high school and in college.
One is a roofer and a carpenter who watches football frequently, and helps coach his son's team.
One is a stand up comedian who enjoys playing Madden on XBL.
One is a programmer who is nursing a twisted ankle.
One is a nine year old girl who has cancer and is currently undergoing chemotherapy.

Let's review.
Our first one is more than able to fill the role; we don't know their skill level, but they can probably manage. Our second and third have the shill, and while they may not be as "geared" as the first, they won't be a burden to the team. Number four, while funny, might not make the best addition to our team. Number five is just a bad idea; while his injury may not be his fault, I'm still not going to bring him. And while I feel bad for number six, bringing them is a bad idea for everyone involved.

When you're on your own, play however you want. Our comedian might love to use the ball as prop comedy. It'd be nice if we could give the girl a touchdown; make her feel a little better... but if you took either of them and put them on an actual team, their opponents will have none of it.

It's the same with an MMORPG; if you're playing solo, wear whatever gear or play whatever job you like. Once you join a group, it's not a question of what is "more fun for you", it's a question of what is "most productive for them". If that means that another player's class is more desirable, then they might pick that other player.

In an ideal game, one would hope you could be able to play what you want, where you want, how you want, but the bulk of people don't want 6 people "having fun" if said "fun" comes as the expense of productivity.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind the occasional low chain parties where I enjoy myself because the company is good... but when presented with a "good" choice and a "better" choice, most players will pick the "better" one and leave the "good" one on the sidelines. It's not that the "good" one is bad, just that they aren't -as- good as the "better" one.

I would like to hope that the job system in 14 is conducive to more balanced group options without pigeonholing certain classes into "needed", "acceptable", and "useless" like XI tended to, but we'll see.

In the end, if class A is even only slightly better than class B, class B players will still have a harder time finding groups.
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#44 Feb 15 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
Most of those type of mmo's I see tend to be more of a... spam your best ability and easy-victory types. Or at least spam a group of abilities. FFXI combat may be slower but you have to react quickly to push your job to the limit.


I disagree. FFXI combat featured a very limited set of abilities on very long cooldowns with oodles of time between actions to stop and plan compared to other MMOs. FFXI combat is a bit of activity and a whole lot of spectator mode. It's a lot easier to execute when you've got extended gaps of time waiting on TP and/or the aforementioned long cooldowns to observe and plan.
I'm curious as to exactly what DD's you have at 75 and what you use them for.

With my DRK I have to constantly look out for Abs-TP moments, balance my recasts on Dread Spikes, Drain and Drain II, look out for recasts on ichi or seigan, as well as WS fairly often (100tp generally takes about a minute with absolutely no buffs or STP but at 75, most DD's should be pushing it at about 30~seconds with some buffs).

With my sam in merits for example, well I mostly play sam/drg with soboro, which means ws'ing every 3-10 seconds (buffs, meditate depending) as well as moving to face the target, preparing to auto-target the next, while balancing Seigan/Hasso/Meditate/Jump/HighJump. There really is no time to spectate in that situation.

My THF, well, that goes without saying that you're constantly doing something. Positioning yourself constantly, splitting up SA/TA/WS, macroing for absolutely everything. You really have to push that job to bring out its best.

I'm not going to give all examples for all my jobs but really; these can all easily be played as "spectator" jobs and perform awfully. I've met SAM's who like to sub NIN in merits, and save up to about 200tp each WS, and thats with a Hagun. Or THF's who wait till about 150tp then deliver a SATAWS once every two minutes. They aren't uncommon either.

FFXI's combat system is slow when you lack haste gear or abilities (low levels). Once you get to 75 you'll often be buffed + have some haste gear (any DD can obtain 15% without too many rare items) plus have access to enough abilities to keep you occupied.

Unless you're talking about.. WAR, DRG, MNK. I'd say these are the least engaged classes but still - with high haste and aggressive subjobs (and attitudes) you can really push a lot more out of them.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 12:16pm by LordFaramir
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#45 Feb 15 2010 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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And it gets even more fun when you try to cooperate with other DD's at the same time.

I don't mean waiting 200tp so you can make a Skillchain, but looking at how much tp your partner has and deciding if its worth it to wait the extra 10~20tp so you can make a lvl2-3 SC or just going.
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#46 Feb 15 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
LordFaramir wrote:
I'm curious as to exactly what DD's you have at 75 and what you use them for.


I played an RNG/NIN at 75. I'm curious as to what other MMOs you've played outside of FFXI. It would be extremely disappointing if your argument that other games simply involve spamming abilities was based solely on hearsay and speculation.

Quote:
With my DRK I have to constantly look out for Abs-TP moments, balance my recasts on Dread Spikes, Drain and Drain II, look out for recasts on ichi or seigan, as well as WS fairly often (100tp generally takes about a minute with absolutely no buffs or STP but at 75, most DD's should be pushing it at about 30~seconds with some buffs).


So let's recap what you just wrote:

1) Wait on ludicrous swing times.
2) Watch for a good time to cast Abs-TP.
3) Alternate casts of Dread Spikes, Drain, and Drain II.
4) Recast Utsusemi or Seigan.
5) WS.

Looks more like a simplified caster rotation in other MMOs than a melee dps rotation, but whatever floats yer boat.

Quote:
With my sam in merits for example, well I mostly play sam/drg with soboro, which means ws'ing every 3-10 seconds (buffs, meditate depending) as well as moving to face the target, preparing to auto-target the next, while balancing Seigan/Hasso/Meditate/Jump/HighJump. There really is no time to spectate in that situation.


I love how FFXI players feel compelled to throw in such onerous and demanding tasks as moving to face a target or getting ready to target something else. Sorry, you might have had me moderately convinced if you hadn't reached quite so far afield to sound busy when you're really not.

The point is, before we get lost in FFXI vs. whatever debates, is that FFXIV is sounding to be substantially more involved. If you're feeling pushed to your limits in FFXI, you might be up against quite the learning curve in FFXIV.
#47 Feb 15 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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108 posts
Quote:
sam is the be-all-end-all DD of the times


I beg to differ. never was never will be.

FFXI is unbalanced with way too many DD classes and not enough tanks or mages if you ask me.
and yes if skill was more of a deciding factor on the outcome of battle than gear,
that would be nice too.
cookie cutter is what FFXI is made of unfortunately.
and the self proclaimed (because most are not) elite are quick to sharpshoot your
SJ
weapon of choice
gear sets
food choice
If you seem on par generally a /tell such as why do you use X ? i use Y myself etc
or if they seem ridiculously inferior maybe a /tell you should use X etc for this
The in betweens just get a examine tops and get maybe talked about in ls or /tell
with one of his buddies.
How do we know these things ? mainly funny mts.
regardless of how busy I am im never too busy to jump in a cookie cutter debate online because its the downfall of the game imo. And new players get brainwashed by there peers from day one.

"use a Gaxe"
"Why arent you subbing nin?"
"sword or h2h to 32 then dagger for vb"

already, lets narrow his field of vision.

Nothing wrong with showing somone how things are done. But for goodness sakes this is a mmorpg. an mmorpg should be associated with all you can do and everywhere you can go and the ppl you can interact with.
Not the boot camp grind and assembly line monotonous outline repeated over and over again.
Sure some expansions help. im not a fan of toau but its better than wotg imo.
and toau gave my drg more pts but it also lowered the bar for the too weak, and I believe in merit not equality for ones achievements in game.
nerfing CoP was a mistake.
level sync is not the answer for parties.
its only a temporary solution creating now another problem which is underskilling.
its SE being lazy because they already messed it up with the job imbalances.
and due to progression of the game not a influx of new players so the population becomes more veteran therefore no one is lvling tanks or rdms and if you want to lvl a low lvl job no one is lfp because most of the server has there plds and rdms at 75 or 69+ already.
New players suffer because of this.
Level sync brought smn burning chig burning and overall poorly skilled players to the higher ranks.
Its inconceivable to me that a 75 blm does not know how to solo a mob like not even a clue i almost lost my mind one day in mount zhayolm when I decided to team up with another blm to get a quick buffer.
They had no clue what was going on its absurd.
a nin lvl 60 who hadnt been in a pt yet and has to tank. seriously?
not even a seasoned guy who might be ok because of his extensive knowledge and expereience in the game, but this is a new player whos only other 75 is... go figure a 75 smn.

____________________________
PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#48 Feb 15 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
MetalSmith wrote:
I remember an epic eve cheapfleet formed in the rookie channel. About 15 people in 2 groups or something. We took out a couple of cruisers in our Rifters, and knocked out some battle ship NPC's that couldn't hit us. Good times.

at any rate, the larger issue here is that people can't seem to function with non cookie cutter parties.

That and people don't trust others to understand their jobs.

As a blackmage, if the party isn't doing skill chains but complains about things like where I'm standing, it really ****** me off. In the end, there are so many preconceptions about what a person should be doing to do the "optimal" amount of damage that it really is sad and difficult to get things done.



anyhow, in the end it's not the issue of jobs out doing other jobs, it's more that other people can't seem to function without doing the absolute mathematical optimal amount of exp / hour.

one of the jobs I would love to play not as a tank would be ninja. I think that it would be fun to have a ninja and blm in the same party to see if I can't find out if it's better to have the two together to adjust elemental resistance. but that'll never happen.


THIS ^^

Side Note:
When i was leveling my nin sub many moons ago, we still had BLM's in parties. The pairing worked well tbh. I would use tools to lower mob defense to the element of the day, and the BLM would have at it. Good Times. Parties were fun when xp/hr wasn't the main goal of the party. Figuring out what skill chains we could use, finding a good camp, and maybe getting a lvl or 2 was all we cared about.
#49 Feb 15 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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1,523 posts
Quote:
one of the jobs I would love to play not as a tank would be ninja. I think that it would be fun to have a ninja and blm in the same party to see if I can't find out if it's better to have the two together to adjust elemental resistance. but that'll never happen.


Me and a friend tried the NIN/RDM,NIN/BLM nuker thing in the 40-50 region region and really had a blast. While we made an elemental cycling rotation there was BLM who tried to time his spells just right so he would benefit from the resistance down buff. But a lot of times it failed because the window was so tiny, but it really was a lot of fun. Good times.

I firmly believe that the Cookie Cutter Box is more easily broken when you're among friends, but also to just go for it even when you get some bad confrontations with certain types of people.

Edited, Feb 16th 2010 10:59am by RedGalka
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#50 Feb 15 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
I'm curious as to exactly what DD's you have at 75 and what you use them for.


I played an RNG/NIN at 75. I'm curious as to what other MMOs you've played outside of FFXI. It would be extremely disappointing if your argument that other games simply involve spamming abilities was based solely on hearsay and speculation.

Quote:
With my DRK I have to constantly look out for Abs-TP moments, balance my recasts on Dread Spikes, Drain and Drain II, look out for recasts on ichi or seigan, as well as WS fairly often (100tp generally takes about a minute with absolutely no buffs or STP but at 75, most DD's should be pushing it at about 30~seconds with some buffs).


So let's recap what you just wrote:

1) Wait on ludicrous swing times.
2) Watch for a good time to cast Abs-TP.
3) Alternate casts of Dread Spikes, Drain, and Drain II.
4) Recast Utsusemi or Seigan.
5) WS.

Looks more like a simplified caster rotation in other MMOs than a melee dps rotation, but whatever floats yer boat.

Quote:
With my sam in merits for example, well I mostly play sam/drg with soboro, which means ws'ing every 3-10 seconds (buffs, meditate depending) as well as moving to face the target, preparing to auto-target the next, while balancing Seigan/Hasso/Meditate/Jump/HighJump. There really is no time to spectate in that situation.


I love how FFXI players feel compelled to throw in such onerous and demanding tasks as moving to face a target or getting ready to target something else. Sorry, you might have had me moderately convinced if you hadn't reached quite so far afield to sound busy when you're really not.

The point is, before we get lost in FFXI vs. whatever debates, is that FFXIV is sounding to be substantially more involved. If you're feeling pushed to your limits in FFXI, you might be up against quite the learning curve in FFXIV.
The only noteworthy MMO's I've played are Guild Wars, World of Warcraft and MapleStory but I've yet to witness anything like FFXI's battle system.

I'm not stressing that moving around is an 'onerous and demanding task' it's simply another thing to add to the list of others. Maybe I should actually fraps my sam/drg at 70% haste in a merit party and you can see how constantly repositioning yourself while being invisible 50% of the time and rapidly performing the WS animation can actually become a more difficult task than it sounds.

No offense but, Ranger is one of the worst examples of a slow job in FFXI. I feel that they badly created this job, I mean, before I started FFXI I researched everything I could about Ranger. I had it all planned out, I got to level 17 and realised that it was just... a slow job. It's 37 now but the whole system of having to wait to fire your arrow - plus the fact that you can't really get a proper source of haste, nothing compared to the melee version at least, makes it one of the slowest jobs to play (as compared to other MMO's) out of all the DD's. Unless you have a kraken club.

Playing in high haste is rather hectic, and as compared to the other MMO's I've played, you dont just mash a sequence of buttons, you have to think. Back to SAM, I forgot the part where I'm constantly looking out for skillchain opportunities - either my own or to open/close other peoples based on what WS they'll perform next logically, and a knowledge of the skillchain system.

To play the job to the max feels nothing like a spectator game.

Also DRK does not have ludicrous swing times at 30-40% haste (gear + haste spell). You seem to be thinking level 1~40 scythe swing times.

And I'm not saying I'm pushed to my limits in FFXI, I'm saying it seems as if you have a radically different opinion on the pacing of the FFXI combat system. It's only slow at low levels or if you're lazy. Based on my comparisons with other MMO's I've played, or seen, or heard about, FFXI's combat system seems to be the most involved - and is probably why I've leveled so many melee jobs.
____________________________
drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#51 Feb 15 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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****
8,779 posts
ah, ive missed you aurelius.

Quote:
I really hope FFXIV will have tough missions. I really, really do. Lots of whiners about how hard it is. Because do you know what's worse than frustration?


word. my friends and i used to joke in FF11 that if any online guide said you needed a whm, a rdm, a blm, a pld tank, a mnk and one other in order finish a mission, we could do it with two blm and a war.

Quote:
Playing in high haste is rather hectic, and as compared to the other MMO's I've played, you dont just mash a sequence of buttons, you have to think. Back to SAM, I forgot the part where I'm constantly looking out for skillchain opportunities - either my own or to open/close other peoples based on what WS they'll perform next logically, and a knowledge of the skillchain system.


a lot of MMO's are getting past the "mash sequence" style of play and are turning more towards a priority system where timing of certain short duration skills and DoT's is the key to succeeding as a dps class.

having said that, it should be noted that the style of play youre talking about wasnt really possible until the second expansion or so. in short, it was fairly late into the games life before you started to see more "hectic" playstyle in FF. playing as a drk or a sam (or anything really) at 75 of the Zilart expansion was significantly slower.

which goes to show how a game can evolve as it ages. i think SE realized that people wanted more stuff to do and so they altered the gameplay to enable that. in all likelihood theyll choose to start from where they are now instead of where they were seven years ago.
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