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If there is an item similar to AF....Follow

#1 Feb 20 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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Please make it useful.

If I go on insanely intricate quests for some "class" based weapons or armor, please make them the best, or at least close to the best, that the class can use.

That always irked my in FFXI. They spent so much time developing the backstory for those quests, some of which were very cool. Then you had to spend some time getting keys, opening chests, running all over vanadiel...and when you're done? You put the items in storage. :(

It also made me sad that they really were the most unique pieces of armor in the game, not just rehashes of low level gear but colored differently. They looked fantastic, and matched the classes.

So please SE, if you do something similar to AF with the different disciplines, please make the items useful.

And yes, I understand that SOME AF in FFXI was useful to SOME jobs, but for the most part they were ignored, or used as Macro pieces at best. Since FFXIV is supposed to do away (or limit) mid-battle gear swaps, it'll be a different story.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 9:33am by jschaub
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#2 Feb 20 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, with the exception of the bulk of the weapons, the armor really was the best armor in the game at the time AF was implemented.

SE tried to fix that with AF+1 but fell short by raising the level of the armor into the 70s once upgraded. This put them at a comparison to end game armor which, again, made most of it look lackluster.
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#3 Feb 20 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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This is why you have to grab the tree from the roots.
Doing away with levels which SE is doing solves most of these issues.
no lvl cap means no armor should get outdated.
I agree with the rant nothing sucks like having heca which looks so **** but you never see it but for the split second your character pops up to ws.
and standing around in your ws set is elitist behavior no one cares what you ws in
and only noobs drool over your gear.
gear swapping via macros: clever to overcome the gear shortcomings yes but We can do without this. I would rather and realistically wear one set and have the ability to change out stuff but out of combat.
As long as no pyramid will be build deeming X piece superior to Y piece for any set situation FFXIV will succeed in the gear department imo.
I love AF its sad it lacks much use.
most beautiful gear sets ever, even the end game gear is mostly ugly.
SE tried to put too much detail in the askar/homam/salvage sets and they look crowded and crappy with the graphics capabilites maxed out compared to pld and drg af thats just my opinion tho.
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#4 Feb 20 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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goblinpimp wrote:
This is why you have to grab the tree from the roots.
Doing away with levels which SE is doing solves most of these issues.
no lvl cap means no armor should get outdated.


In theory, but I imagine you'd have to have some kind of skill that scales what types of armor you can wear. I'd have a hard time imagining you'll wear the same armor from beginning to end.
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#5 Feb 20 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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If they're to make "AF" useful in the game, they'll have to make it a drop from bosses or something like they did in other games. Tier Armors that you can replace with new ones as you level up, maybe every 10-15 levels or so. Having one set of gear that wins from mid level - endgame will ruin crafting and item drops. :(

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 12:12pm by GuardianFaith
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#6 Feb 20 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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If there is going to be AF armor in ffxiv then i expect it to be aimed at mid level players and not the maximum level of players unless there's a way to upgrade it like what happened in ffxi with the +1. I also expect ffxiv to go away with mid combat gear swaps completely so use for mid level players is all that this new type of job specific AF armor will be. There could even be job specific AF type armor that is made for the maximum level of players like with Dynamis armor for example. I don't expect it to be anything like ffxi but i do expect there to be some kind of armor for each class that only they can use for certain stages of progression. I would like to think if there was a set aimed at maximum level players then it would be the best for certain roles, a Gladiator's set could be the best at defense for example.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 3:38pm by KeeperOfTheStaff
#7 Feb 20 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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The AF quests were actually really simple to do, and if you want these items to be the end all of gear, than the system would be broken. I mean sure they took time, but comparing that to what other gear took to obtain it was miniscule. I thought most of the quest plotlines were quite cheesy, and personally hated doing them, but to each his own.
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#8 Feb 20 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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jschaub wrote:

And yes, I understand that SOME AF in FFXI was useful to SOME jobs, but for the most part they were ignored, or used as Macro pieces at best. Since FFXIV is supposed to do away (or limit) mid-battle gear swaps, it'll be a different story.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 9:33am by jschaub


Well to be fair pretty much every piece of gear in XI was just a macro piece, some just got left on longer than others. Obviously that wouldn't be the case in XIV if they do away with mid-battle gear swaps, just sayin'...

More on topic, I do hope there is AF type armor and I do hope it is useful and not just for the mid levels, but I don't really need for it to be the end-all-be-all for any class. Actually I wouldn't want any gear sets to be the end-all-be-all, I'm not really a fan of strict linear gear progression. I suppose I'd just like to see the AF mixed in with the rest of the 'attainable at endgame' gear available.
#9 Feb 20 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
In theory, but I imagine you'd have to have some kind of skill that scales what types of armor you can wear. I'd have a hard time imagining you'll wear the same armor from beginning to end.


Well of course but here's to the imagination and creativity of SE.
maybe the evolith and augment system is a test of things to come.
dipping toes in the water the same they did with level sync.
Hopefully it will be interesting maybe elemental affects boost certain skills
or certain skills unlock potentials in certain armor pieces or sets.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 4:56pm by goblinpimp
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#10 Feb 20 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
PopeyesOpenEye wrote:
Well to be fair pretty much every piece of gear in XI was just a macro piece, some just got left on longer than others. Obviously that wouldn't be the case in XIV if they do away with mid-battle gear swaps, just sayin'...

More on topic, I do hope there is AF type armor and I do hope it is useful and not just for the mid levels, but I don't really need for it to be the end-all-be-all for any class. Actually I wouldn't want any gear sets to be the end-all-be-all, I'm not really a fan of strict linear gear progression. I suppose I'd just like to see the AF mixed in with the rest of the 'attainable at endgame' gear available.


Similar to this, with the "no gear swaps in combat" idea, I don't really want to see gear that you can get within a year of playing the game that is still considered "the best" 3 years later. Character progression is a central feature of RPGs, and a substantial part of that progression comes from gear. If you've already got the best, what does that leave for potential rewards later on? Do I really want a character that looks the same in 2013 as it does in 2011?

SE already knows that they shot themselves in the foot by introducing relic weapons as early into the game's lifespan as they did. Smart developers never cap gear progression. There always has to be room to move forward. It just has to be paced appropriately. I remember when I played LOTRO, every class had a very involved, multi-stage quest that typically involved going and killing a significant number of high level mobs in high level zones for the first stage, then gathering drops from several named spawn mobs for the second stage, and finally gathering drops from bosses in high level instanced content. By the time it was all said and done, you could turn in the final quest for a very good weapon that was suited to your class. About two weeks after I finished that quest, they released a new zone that featured a quest that could be done in about half an hour (start - finish) that rewarded a weapon on par with the one you got from the epic class specific quest. That was a case of botched itemization. People who started playing closer to launch than I did would have gotten much more use out of their class specific weapon than I did, but to take a multiple hour process and render it obsolete for the sake of a 30 minute quest was a bit silly. If anything, they would have been better off waiting unti they raised the level cap when the natural progression of gear meant that more common weapons would approach the quality of the quested weapons anyway.

People need an incentive to repeat content. I seriously doubt that most people who were running Dynamis on a weekly basis 3 years ago would still be running it today if it weren't for the relics. There has to be a good balance between incentive to repeat content and letting go of it when there's abundant content to replace it.
#11 Feb 20 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Similar to this, with the "no gear swaps in combat" idea, I don't really want to see gear that you can get within a year of playing the game that is still considered "the best" 3 years later. Character progression is a central feature of RPGs, and a substantial part of that progression comes from gear. If you've already got the best, what does that leave for potential rewards later on? Do I really want a character that looks the same in 2013 as it does in 2011?


I agree with 98% of your post but on this I would like to point out that the rewards don't have to be better gear or even gear at all. Relative back to the transition from lvl progression to skill progression. Skill sets, abilities, enhancements, spells all sorts of things can be rewarded upon advancement.
Sur ea set of gear gets old to look at but does it really need to be swapped out for something that trumps it and makes it obsolete or can it be replaced by something that is purely alternative or situational not on a gear swapping note but on a whole event or mob type etc.
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

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#12 Feb 20 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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goblinpimp wrote:
[quote]
Sur ea set of gear gets old to look at but does it really need to be swapped out for something that trumps it and makes it obsolete or can it be replaced by something that is purely alternative or situational not on a gear swapping note but on a whole event or mob type etc.


This is how I would like to see endgame gear progression done as well. With upgrades coming not necessarily by tiers, more by situational usefulness. Maybe it's the RDM in me but I don't like when my favorite piece of gear becomes obsolete any more than I would want to stare at said piece of gear for the next 3 years.
#13 Feb 20 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
goblinpimp wrote:
Quote:
Similar to this, with the "no gear swaps in combat" idea, I don't really want to see gear that you can get within a year of playing the game that is still considered "the best" 3 years later. Character progression is a central feature of RPGs, and a substantial part of that progression comes from gear. If you've already got the best, what does that leave for potential rewards later on? Do I really want a character that looks the same in 2013 as it does in 2011?


I agree with 98% of your post but on this I would like to point out that the rewards don't have to be better gear or even gear at all. Relative back to the transition from lvl progression to skill progression. Skill sets, abilities, enhancements, spells all sorts of things can be rewarded upon advancement.
Sur ea set of gear gets old to look at but does it really need to be swapped out for something that trumps it and makes it obsolete or can it be replaced by something that is purely alternative or situational not on a gear swapping note but on a whole event or mob type etc.


If skill progression, skill sets, abilities, etc. are evolving and gear is not, the value of gear becomes less and less. Both have to have room to progress.
#14 Feb 20 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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When AF came out, the game was only in Japan and had a level cap of 60.

People forget that JPs had an expansion before the game even came to NA.
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#15 Feb 20 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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Well, with the exception of the bulk of the weapons, the armor really was the best armor in the game at the time AF was implemented.


no one has forgotten Japanese players had it first. as the above poster points out it was the best at the time.
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#16 Feb 20 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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If skill progression, skill sets, abilities, etc. are evolving and gear is not, the value of gear becomes less and less. Both have to have room to progress.


agreed. What I meant was both balanced between gear and the characters itself. Mainly evolving the stats on the gear or something of equivalent nature.
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PS: Your Wonder Clomps and Fang Necklace at DRG75 are utter dogsh*t terrible. You've had an entire month and made no improvements in your gear.

Bsphil to Phantasydragon
#17 Feb 21 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I've always likes the idea of having two sets of armour that you wear, one if for stats and the other for aesthetic appearance, several MMO's do this, its not very realistic to wear 2 sets of clothes of course but at least you can mix great stats with what you think you look good in.

Plus it has the upside that not everyone is running round looking like clones of each other at end game.

From what I remember Aion also had a nice system where you could transfer stats to gear of your choice.
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#18 Feb 21 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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AF2 was pretty useful and close to being Best in slot short of AF2+1 for many pieces other than that FFXI gear was all about situational gear, evasion builds, sneak attack builds, trick attack builds, tanking builds, dd builds (see where I'm going?)

To make one set of gear best in slot for everything would be pretty broken with the current FFXI system. It quite simply has no chance of working on anything in fact challenging (although it could for more or less trivial stuff).

That being said blinking in and out of gear more often and faster than models during fashion weak is quite possibly the stupidest game mechanism I've ever encountered.

Should have called it Fashion Fantasy XI considering how much gear people carried around and how often people changed into and out of different "outfits".
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#19 Feb 21 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Diakar wrote:
Plus it has the upside that not everyone is running round looking like clones of each other at end game.

From what I remember Aion also had a nice system where you could transfer stats to gear of your choice.


I actually love this idea. It would be a great addition to crafting armor if you could personalize what you were making a little more. There could be different items you could use in a synthesis (or whatever it will be) to make the same type of armor but with small changes. Changing colors, for example, would definitely add to the personality of the armor. I always wanted a blue Vermilion Cloak in FFXI. Sure, you can change it for yourself, but no one else can see it. I personally liked having multiple sets of armor to wear because some looked better than others, but with the inventory space available at the time, it wasn't efficient to be carrying around 5 sets of armor, staves, jewelery, macro pieces, etc and trying to keep things on me I wanted to wear more for fun.

Being able to transfer stats to armor would be interesting, but it would have to have some type of limitations. I think if people could transfer stats to the festival clothes in FFXI it would have been a little ridiculous. The stats on the armor should make sense and maybe be somewhat job-specific since the armor will also be job-specific.
#20 Feb 21 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Remember too that the usefulness of AF to the individual depended greatly on how close your interpretation of your job was to SE's interpretation. Part of the lack of usefulness came from what the community accepted as the job's role versus what SE thought it was. Case in point: All that +ENM on WAR AF.

I tell you one little idea that just came to me, if there are class specific "artifact" pieces in FFXIV, I can wager that the "AF" weapon may be a tad more useful than the AF weapons from 11.
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#21 Feb 21 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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There definitely needs to be a separation between aesthetics and function in gear. Players should for the most part be allowed to look how they want to and function how they want to simultaneously. Whether you make aesthetics completely open, or make them as difficult to earn as functions-- either way is better than limiting players to choosing one or the other (because then it's really not much of a choice).

Quote:

I agree with 98% of your post but on this I would like to point out that the rewards don't have to be better gear or even gear at all. Relative back to the transition from lvl progression to skill progression. Skill sets, abilities, enhancements, spells all sorts of things can be rewarded upon advancement.


I'm glad you pointed this out. In FFXI and nearly every MMO, you kill things for two reasons: xp or stuff (money/equipment). XP is a very general kind of character enhancement though, and there are many more ways that can add depth and complexity to the system. For example, the way BLU learned skills from enemies. Some games give you bonuses for your title. I'd like to see more quested abilities and character progression in general, rather than "get enough generic XP and you can access it."

There just isn't much flavor to the enhancement in most MMOs. You grind xp to progress your character, and then you grind bosses to improve your gear. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing small permabonuses for achievements. Fafnir may not have something you need, but killing him once will give you an epic HP bonus (epic in name only). Why not bosses you have to defeat to learn certain spells or abilities? Some relatively novel originality.

I give the benefit of the doubt that SE would have done these sorts of things in XI if they weren't so limited before by hardware and experience, or at least I'd like to, but seeing how they allocated their developmental resources in XI doesn't instill me with purest hopefulness.
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