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PSA: Top 10 annoying things to prepare for in FFXIVFollow

#1 Feb 21 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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With all the recent drama happening on the forums I thought it might be a good time to do something fun, so I have for you all this special top 10 list made entirely for your amusement. We're all anxiously waiting for the release of FFXIV, but it's important for people to remember that no matter how different you want FFXIV to be, some things never change... so without further adieu I give you:

The Top 10 Annoying Things to Prepare for in FFXIV:

10. Annoying/overused/unoriginal character names i.e. xxCloudxx, Sephirof, LeeroyJenkins, Timmmmmmy.

9. Nearly empty linkshells/guilds because everyone wants to start their own.

8. Female Lalafell being reffered to as lolifell.

7. Random immature people standing next to you spamming emotes that they think they were the first to notice resemble sexual acts.

6. Getting accused of being RMT because you're chosen source of income happens to be exploited by them.

5. Half the population (having never played XI) being totally lost in conversations because the other half won't stop using the old race names from XI.

4. At least one glitch at release that can be exploited, and at least 500 stupid people later banned for exploiting said glitch.

3. Guys claiming they chose Miqo'te for their stats (despite SE promising only minor racial stat differences).

2. 50,000* people claiming they were one of the 5,000* people in the beta just so they can say "Ive been playing since beta so stfu nub".

1. Comparisons to WoW (and other MMOs).

And there you have it, please feel free to add your own and help make everyone as prepared as possible for the wonder that FFXIV will be, and the stupidity of the people who will be playing it.

As a side note, I intentionally left gillsellers off this list for two reasons 1. everyone already knows to expect them and 2. they're more like a disease then an annoyance.

*these numbers were hastily removed from my ****, actual figurs may will vary.

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 4:44pm by LeodegranceMCIII
#2 Feb 21 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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LeodegranceMCIII wrote:
2. 50,000* people claiming they were one of the 5,000* people in the beta just so they can say "Ive been playing since beta so stfu nub".


This one is by far my favorite. Bravo!

I would probably add:

11. People spamming in shout to each other in every single zone starting stupid, pointless conversations and asking where everything is.

12. People using FFXIV as a dating service.

edit: decided to keep it more succinct.

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 6:30pm by Bluefirefly
#3chemicalpenguin, Posted: Feb 21 2010 at 1:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 11a. Example: xxCloudLegolasxx shouts: "They should call it 'WoW: Cataclysm-360' because when you see it, it makes you want to turn around 360 degrees and walk away."
#4 Feb 21 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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7. Immature people standing next to you spamming emotes that they think they were the first to notice resemble sexual acts.


Ya know, that's not necessarily immature. Maybe you just don't have a sense of humor.
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#5 Feb 21 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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5. Half the population (having never played XI) being totally lost in conversations because the other half won't stop using the old race names from XI.


lol, nice. I'll be that 2nd half...
#6 Feb 21 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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12. People using FFXIV as a dating service.


LOL, this.

It baffled me at the amount of FF11 relationships I came across in the time that I played it.
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#7 Feb 21 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
7. Immature people standing next to you spamming emotes that they think they were the first to notice resemble sexual acts.

Ya know, that's not necessarily immature. Maybe you just don't have a sense of humor.

It's hard to think of a video game situation that more clearly represents immature than people attempting to perform faux sexual acts.
#8 Feb 21 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
7. Immature people standing next to you spamming emotes that they think they were the first to notice resemble sexual acts.

Ya know, that's not necessarily immature. Maybe you just don't have a sense of humor.


In the right situations, among friends it can be freaking hilarious. However, I was referring to random people/strangers that walk up and do it to others for no apparent reason. Some people might think it's funny just like some people find Johnny Knocksville funny, but to everyone else they just look like an ***. For your benefit though I edited my original post to be more clear, which shouldn't really be necessary in a JOKE thread, but I digress.

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 4:45pm by LeodegranceMCIII
#9 Feb 21 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
People using FFXIV as a dating service


Quote:
It baffled me at the amount of FF11 relationships I came across in the time that I played it.


QFT This is the reason I stopped playing.

Half the LinkShells I was in was like a high school dance. And it never ceased to amaze me when someone would destroy a linkshell for a piece of *** they met in a video game because they thought they were gonna "get some"

Shinsengumi LS of Leviathan I'm looking at you.
#10 Feb 21 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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LeodegranceMCIII wrote:
5. Half the population (having never played XI) being totally lost in conversations because the other half won't stop using the old race names from XI.


7 years in FFXI will do that to you. It'll take me time to start using the proper names in game.
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#11 Feb 21 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefX wrote:
Half the LinkShells I was in was like a high school dance. And it never ceased to amaze me when someone would destroy a linkshell for a piece of *** they met in a video game because they thought they were gonna "get some"

Shinsengumi LS of Leviathan I'm looking at you.


Exactly! One of my friends would always fall for the same BS act. A "girl" character would seduce him, he would give them tons of items and gil, and then she would tell him she needed her space and move on to the next sucker. And then of course there were the linkshell leaders with their harems, and despite any linkshell rules, if one of his/her girlfriends/boyfriends wanted the drop, they got it. Gotta love a certain dyna linkshell.
#12 Feb 21 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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11. People spamming in shout to each other in every single zone starting stupid, pointless conversations and asking where everything is.


I will not be denied my God-given right to turn /shout into /b/.
#13 Feb 21 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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7 years in FFXI will do that to you. It'll take me time to start using the proper names in game.

Wait, they're gonna have new names? I didn't bother to notice... J/K
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#14 Feb 21 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Add to list: The inevitable use of FFXI jokes. Such as Taru punting. If there is no autotranslate function, guaranteed that wont stop people from reliving their glory days with regular sentences divided by brackets(PENTA THRUST) (MITHRA) (FUN) (HOLE). ha ha ... fricken ha.

Also add: Collision detection on other playable characters. Just so your final sprint to the airship will be missed due to that 1 second delay when running through another character by accident.
#15 Feb 21 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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11a. Example: xxCloudLegolasxx shouts: "They should call it 'WoW: Cataclysm-360' because when you see it, it makes you want to turn around 360 degrees and walk away."


I'm not sure if it was unintentional or a part of the commentary, but for me it would be the second time this week that someone made the mistake of offering 360 degrees as the number of degrees that you would turn in order to go in the other direction.

/pedantry
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#16 Feb 21 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if it was unintentional or a part of the commentary, but for me it would be the second time this week that someone made the mistake of offering 360 degrees as the number of degrees that you would turn in order to go in the other direction.


Its wrong on purpose, originating from the joke "Why do they call it the XBox 360?"
#17 Feb 21 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah ok. I'm unfamiliar with that joke.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Feb 21 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Default
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ITT: People who have no sense of humor about things and are too uptight to enjoy immature jokes every once in a while.
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#19 Feb 21 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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#20 Feb 21 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
mortalabattoir wrote:
ITT: People who have no sense of humor about things and are too uptight to enjoy immature jokes every once in a while.


Immature jokes from friends are far more acceptable to most people than immature jokes from complete strangers.
#21 Feb 21 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

8. Female Lalafell being reffered to as lolifell.



YES
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#22 Feb 21 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
11a. Example: xxCloudLegolasxx shouts: "They should call it 'WoW: Cataclysm-360' because when you see it, it makes you want to turn around 360 degrees and walk away."


You know that if you turn 360 degrees around you end up going the same direction right? I think you meant 180 degrees sir :). Or an aboutface ;o
#23 Feb 21 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Default
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Irspellxxornab wrote:
Quote:
11a. Example: xxCloudLegolasxx shouts: "They should call it 'WoW: Cataclysm-360' because when you see it, it makes you want to turn around 360 degrees and walk away."


You know that if you turn 360 degrees around you end up going the same direction right? I think you meant 180 degrees sir :). Or an aboutface ;o


You have apparently never been in trade and or barrens chat. I envy you.

Also that Zelda game is weird, I mean he has swords and bombs and bows and other cool stuff, but who names their main guy character zelda ?
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#24 Feb 21 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
I too will be in the later half of the group is #7
#25 Feb 21 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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Irspellxxornab wrote:
Quote:
11a. Example: xxCloudLegolasxx shouts: "They should call it 'WoW: Cataclysm-360' because when you see it, it makes you want to turn around 360 degrees and walk away."


You know that if you turn 360 degrees around you end up going the same direction right? I think you meant 180 degrees sir :). Or an aboutface ;o


I did not make a mistake. And it proves the point.

People will shout things like this to start up random and worthless conversations because it somehow forces people to "shout" back pointing out the error in the degrees, then more people "shout" about how it was intentional, and then more people usually follow up with the same joke except changing "Catalcysm-360" to reference something else like another game, or music album etc..

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 10:43pm by chemicalpenguin
#26 Feb 21 2010 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
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13. random low levels spam /tells by the auction house asking for more gil so they can afford the stuff they want.
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#27 Feb 22 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
mortalabattoir wrote:
ITT: People who have no sense of humor about things and are too uptight to enjoy immature jokes every once in a while.


Immature jokes from friends are far more acceptable to most people than immature jokes from complete strangers.


I disagree. I felt like in FFXI, the entire community was a close friend enough for me to see an immature joke in /shout and enjoy it. I could laugh with those who do {mithra}{fun}{hole} or those who go around using /welcome to look like they were humping random people. It's all in good fun, and people really need to take the sticks out of their bums and laugh at life more. IMO those were a few of the only people who understood what it means to play a game for fun. A lot of times it was unoriginal, sure, but FFXI wasn't a competition for originality, in linkshells or outside of them.

I'd much rather be an immature person than someone who can't laugh at things, honestly, and that's not directed at you, that's directed at pretty much everyone who's ever complained about people being immature.
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#28 Feb 22 2010 at 12:39 AM Rating: Default
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chemicalpenguin wrote:
I did not make a mistake. And it proves the point.

People will shout things like this to start up random and worthless conversations because it somehow forces people to "shout" back pointing out the error in the degrees, then more people "shout" about how it was intentional, and then more people usually follow up with the same joke except changing "Catalcysm-360" to reference something else like another game, or music album etc..


It's called an internet meme. It's quite common. And it sounds like those people were having fun while you were getting your panties in a bunch. I'd much rather listen to those people enjoy themselves than to you complaining about how people enjoy themselves.
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#29 Feb 22 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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And it sounds like those people were having fun while you were getting your panties in a bunch. I'd much rather listen to those people enjoy themselves than to you complaining about how people enjoy themselves.


You have to realize that people are affected differently by similar things. What may be true for one person, may not be necessarily true for the others, and it is kinda childish to presume otherwise. Just because certain people don't find sexual innuendo jokes funny doesn't mean that they have a terrible sense of humor or that they are incapable of having fun. It just means that those people don't find those jokes very tasteful.

Let's say, for example, that one of the people participating in those types of jokes was very sensitive to racial jokes and the conversation steers that way. The person speaks out about it and the same people he/she was just having fun with now start saying that s/he should lighten up and get a sense of humor. Does this mean that the person should discard all his/her values just because some people claim that racial jokes are enjoyable and that they don't know how to have fun? Does it now mean that the person has no sense of humor because they find racial jokes distasteful, even though they don't mind sexual jokes?

In any case, I personally don't care much about how people get their kicks. I'm pretty much open to anything and if people want to talk about galkan sausages and mithra fun holes or whatever, then they can go right ahead. I would just not participate in that conversation because I don't find it to be funny at all, though I don't condemn those that do, and would rather do something more important with my time.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 2:34am by Auruelis
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#30 Feb 22 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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Auruelis wrote:
In any case, I personally don't care much about how people get their kicks. I'm pretty much open to anything and if people want to talk about galkan sausages and mithra fun holes or whatever, then they can go right ahead. I would just not participate in that conversation because I don't find it to be funny at all, though I don't condemn those that do, and would rather do something more important with my time.


AureliusSir sock?

Just kiddin'. Anyway, I realize that some people are bothered by that kind of behavior, but there's definitely a line there somewhere. I think as long as the conversation doesn't get too personal, too aggressive, too racially/sexually insensitive, then it's okay. If not, a polite /tell asking someone to stop should suffice, and if that's not enough, then the other person has the problem.

The auto-translator stuff and sexual emotes typically aren't very funny to me, either, but I do appreciate the level of comfort that the community has. It's definitely better than playing a game where nobody speaks to each other, believe me **cough** Vanguard **cough**. It's just always going to be one of those things where sometimes people cross the line, and sometimes people are too sensitive. You just have to be willing to react appropriately when either happens to absolve the situation. FFXI's community was solid, and I'm expecting the same from FFXIV's. It shouldn't be a major issue.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 3:14am by Eske
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#31StartTrouble, Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Oh the irony. Hypocrite, much?
#32 Feb 22 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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LeodegranceMCIII wrote:
With all the recent drama happening on the forums I thought it might be a good time to do something fun, so I have for you all this special top 10 list made entirely for your amusement.

please feel free to add your own and help make everyone as prepared as possible for the wonder that FFXIV will be, and the stupidity of the people who will be playing it.


THERE.

let me quote the OP, so ppl can start to realize this thread is do something fun with a list of annoying things to prepare for FFXIV, NOT to argue something dumb.

lets keep rolling!
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#33 Feb 22 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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10. Annoying/overused/unoriginal character names i.e. xxCloudxx, Sephirof, LeeroyJenkins, Timmmmmmy.


This. Also I saw a pic where a character had numbers in his names. I really dont like names with numbers in them in a fantasy MMO.
#34 Feb 22 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
Mostaru wrote:
LeodegranceMCIII wrote:
With all the recent drama happening on the forums I thought it might be a good time to do something fun, so I have for you all this special top 10 list made entirely for your amusement.

please feel free to add your own and help make everyone as prepared as possible for the wonder that FFXIV will be, and the stupidity of the people who will be playing it.


THERE.

let me quote the OP, so ppl can start to realize this thread is do something fun with a list of annoying things to prepare for FFXIV, NOT to argue something dumb.

lets keep rolling!


I've largely steered clear of this thread, but you have to know that a "fun" thread focused on things people find annoying is flame bait.
#35 Feb 22 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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8. Female Lalafell being reffered to as lolifell.
I plan on calling them lalalas, and they will remind me of the singing midgets of my childhood. What fun we shall have together!
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#36 Feb 22 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Default
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Re: Aure

I was just quoting what OP said...
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#37 Feb 22 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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- People referring to gil as gold.
#38 Feb 22 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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BubbleGumCrisis wrote: This. Also I saw a pic where a character had numbers in his names. I really dont like names with numbers in them in a fantasy MMO.


I've gotta agree, I was really surprized when I first played FFXI and created my character and had no option to add numbers. Pleased, yes. But also surprised. I'd very much like to see that again. Otherwise I'm sure we are going to see a lot of Tifa837456s and Zell14378717s. Or of course everyone's favorite, using the number 3 to replace the letter E... Can't you see it now "S3phirothL33T" & "Zidan3Pwns"

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 3:22pm by ReiThor
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#39 Feb 22 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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GuardianFaith wrote:

Ya know, that's not necessarily immature. Maybe you just don't have a sense of humor.


Nope, pretty sure doing this sort of things to strangers is immature. It's thoughtless and ignores very reasonable social boundaries.

Let's not forget that the intent of these actions towards strangers are rarely intended to make them laugh. More often than not it's to get a rise out of them, and last I checked trying to spitefully get your entertainment from other peoples reactions is about as immature as it gets.

mortalabattoir wrote:
It's called an internet meme. It's quite common. And it sounds like those people were having fun while you were getting your panties in a bunch. I'd much rather listen to those people enjoy themselves than to you complaining about how people enjoy themselves.


TLDR Statements like this combined with others from other posters make me think it's more important to some (Not necessarily MortalAbattoir?) people that they can say stupid crap without getting called on it and getting their feelings hurt (Oh, sorry, they "get their panties in a twist" and "whine" and "Don't have a sense of humor") than the average person having the ability to play the game comfortably.
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#40 Feb 22 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
BubbleGumCrisis wrote: This. Also I saw a pic where a character had numbers in his names. I really dont like names with numbers in them in a fantasy MMO.


I've gotta agree, I was really surprized when I first played FFXI and created my character and had no option to add numbers. Pleased, yes. But also surprised. I'd very much like to see that again. Otherwise I'm sure we are going to see a lot of Tifa837456s and Zell14378717s. Or of course everyone's favorite, using the number 3 to replace the letter E... Can't you see it now "S3phirothL33T" & "Zidan3Pwns"

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 3:22pm by ReiThor


I've been getting the impression that SE takes immersion in their "final fantasy" world very seriously. I'd expect the same rules that FFXI had in place.
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#41 Feb 22 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I got another one... someone will use the random number generator to make gambling games, and they will be shouting throughout an area to advertise for their gambling games. uggggg.
#42 Feb 22 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Default
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Maybe it's just me but these things don't tend to annoy me. I just enjoy the game and associate with people that i get along with.
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#43Kachi, Posted: Feb 22 2010 at 8:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) /
#44 Feb 22 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I just really have no sympathy for people who allow internet strangers to be accountable for their own comfort when it comes to anything shy of harassing behavior that warrants actual legal action.


Now here's where it gets interesting: What constitutes harassing behavior that warrants legal action?

As far as the actual issue goes, I kind of straddle the fence. But if you've say, played Call of Duty (really any online FPS, just an example) you get a great demonstration of how what's "just fun and games" to some people, can be horrifically offensive and uncalled for to others.

It's tough. There's a line that has to be agreed on to be drawn somewhere, but you won't find two people who agree on it perfectly. There's no perfect approach to the issue.


As a side note: Does anyone remember the "/examine" fiasco that went on and off for a long time on the FFXI forums? Some people felt like it was an invasion of their privacy. I argued against them like every single week on and on. It was inane.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 10:31pm by Eske

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 10:37pm by Eske
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#45 Feb 22 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
As a side note: Does anyone remember the "/examine" fiasco that went on and off for a long time on the FFXI forums? Some people felt like it was an invasion of their privacy. I argued against them like every single week on and on. It was inane.


That's because you have one group that fights tooth and nail to defend what they perceive to be an entitlement and another group that fights tooth and nail for what they perceive to be a courtesy. It comes down to respect, and part of respect means that if you don't have to do something and you know it makes others uncomfortable, you don't do it. It's like sitting down in a crowded restaurant and going out of your way to produce chainsaw-like flatulence. If you're gassy, you're gassy, but you don't need to disrupt the people around you to address it.

If you're curious about the gear someone else is wearing and you've heard that a significant portion of the population prefer to be asked before you examine them and you don't do it, you're not being very nice. You'd have to be living under a rock to not know that a significant portion of the population doesn't appreciate sexual inferences from strangers. If you ignore that social convention for the sake of your own amusement, you're being a crass prick.

Of course, it's your right to be a crass prick if you really want to ('you' being used in the general sense). And it's the right of the community to respond as they do. Just don't cry when you start seeing "JP only" in search comments or "mature players only" in LS/whatever recruitment ads. You do what you feel the need to do and other people respond the way they do. The hope, however, is that everyone be grown-up enough to take responsibility for their part in any conflict that ensues.
#46 Feb 22 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Conversations about ****(atrice) farming, Meat Farming, etc.

"I'm farming ***** for gil" is only amusing the first time you say it >_>
#47 Feb 22 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
7. Immature people standing next to you spamming emotes that they think they were the first to notice resemble sexual acts.

Ya know, that's not necessarily immature. Maybe you just don't have a sense of humor.

It's hard to think of a video game situation that more clearly represents immature than people attempting to perform faux sexual acts.


Not to be an *** or anything, but Allegory, you really aren't the person that should be commenting on any sexual act, faux or otherwise.

Westyle wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure if it was unintentional or a part of the commentary, but for me it would be the second time this week that someone made the mistake of offering 360 degrees as the number of degrees that you would turn in order to go in the other direction.


Its wrong on purpose, originating from the joke "Why do they call it the XBox 360?"


It's a stupid joke that makes no sense. Sadly most people that I've seen use it don't know why it's stupid.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 11:46pm by Turin
#48 Feb 22 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Eske wrote:
As a side note: Does anyone remember the "/examine" fiasco that went on and off for a long time on the FFXI forums? Some people felt like it was an invasion of their privacy. I argued against them like every single week on and on. It was inane.


That's because you have one group that fights tooth and nail to defend what they perceive to be an entitlement and another group that fights tooth and nail for what they perceive to be a courtesy. It comes down to respect, and part of respect means that if you don't have to do something and you know it makes others uncomfortable, you don't do it. It's like sitting down in a crowded restaurant and going out of your way to produce chainsaw-like flatulence. If you're gassy, you're gassy, but you don't need to disrupt the people around you to address it.

If you're curious about the gear someone else is wearing and you've heard that a significant portion of the population prefer to be asked before you examine them and you don't do it, you're not being very nice. You'd have to be living under a rock to not know that a significant portion of the population doesn't appreciate sexual inferences from strangers. If you ignore that social convention for the sake of your own amusement, you're being a crass prick.

Of course, it's your right to be a crass prick if you really want to ('you' being used in the general sense). And it's the right of the community to respond as they do. Just don't cry when you start seeing "JP only" in search comments or "mature players only" in LS/whatever recruitment ads. You do what you feel the need to do and other people respond the way they do. The hope, however, is that everyone be grown-up enough to take responsibility for their part in any conflict that ensues.


I don't mean to start up that argument again, (okay, I did) but I'll give this a whirl.

Aurelius wrote:
If you ignore that social convention for the sake of your own amusement, you're being a crass prick.


You use the word "convention" here, which means "general agreement or consent; accepted usage, esp. as a standard of procedure". I'll question that application, because while you say "significant portion of the population", I think we can both agree that the population of those that were bothered by /check (it was /check, right?) was the minority. A VERY vocal minority, but the minority nonetheless. So I don't think it's fair to say that it was the "social convention" at all. Now, most players I encountered either weren't bothered by /check, or suffered in silence. So with that in mind, what's a person to do if they want to find out what that cool looking piece of armor is? Or if they want to make sure that their party member is equipped up to snuff? Does one simply not risk it, and never /check again? Ask permission of every single player? Or do they play the odds, and just go with it? I for one, never asked before I /checked, and it was never an issue. And I /checked like it was my job :P . Now of course, I should say that if someone did have a problem with it, and politely asked me to stop, then I would have responded in kind. But that never happened, either. Makes me think it's a case of the venue of the internet forum exacerbating a non-issue.

Also, "for the sake of your own amusement" is quite a reach. Most people who used that function did it with innocent intentions, obviously.

When I argued this point before, it was because of the specific rhetoric used against /check. Most people analogized it to coming up to someone and reaching into their shirt to examine the label. Sometimes they went as far as to say underwear. I feel that's a fundamentally flawed analogy, because it relies on an emotional response to what we all recognize is a physical violation. It might be fair if your character performed the exact same set of actions to another character, but since that's not the case, I think it's a fair bit of exaggeration. And it's not like the clothes that we wear are significant for their +3 Dexterity, something which can't be grasped from a visual cue. No, it's really a very different and unique situation, and I don't feel that applying superfluous real-life values to it is necessary or appropriate.

It's like your flatulence example: an oversimplified exaggeration.

Now, if we want to talk real-world examples, I think it's worth noting that society does not always accommodate the beliefs of a minority. For example, a minority of the population believes that the amount of sexual content/violence in popular media is not appropriate, yet the level of such content simply persists, or even grows stronger. We collectively ignore the belief of that minority because it is in discord with the more popularly held one. I think that /check is kind of like that situation.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2010 12:38am by Eske

Edited, Feb 23rd 2010 12:42am by Eske
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#49 Feb 23 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
You use the word "convention" here, which means "general agreement or consent; accepted usage, esp. as a standard of procedure". I'll question that application, because while you say "significant portion of the population", I think we can both agree that the population of those that were bothered by /check (it was /check, right?) was the minority. A VERY vocal minority, but the minority nonetheless.


When it comes to fundamental concepts like respecting the people in your community, dismissing the concerns of a particular group based on their minority status is not acceptable when respecting their boundaries doesn't cause you any harm. It was concern put forward by the JP community about /check that started the whole debate. It was a case of the way the emote was translated in the JP client in conjunction with a cultural preference towards privacy. All they asked was that you send them a simple "{/check} OK?" and then honor their response. A lot of NA saw that and said, ********** you. I'm American. I do what I want and if you don't like it, you deal with it."

And when that kind of general attitude in conjunction with the language barrier started resulting in more and more JP search comments that included "JP only", the NA cried. Yes, the delicious salty tears of the victimized did flow, because of course no NA player had ever done anything to contribute to the rift.

It's not like gear in FFXI was so varied that you couldn't learn what individual pieces looked like on sight alone after having seen it a few times. It's not like you needed to /check every single person in a Noble's Tunic to see what they had on, and your desire to weed out undesirables based on gear is not a higher priority than respecting their boundaries.

My reference to social conventions was aimed at the sexual references, not /check. Sexual innuendo/jokes/inferences aimed towards strangers is held almost universally as socially inappropriate in the real world, and there's no solid rationalization for why that social convention can be dismissed just because of teh intartoobs anonymity.

Quote:
Also, "for the sake of your own amusement" is quite a reach. Most people who used that function did it with innocent intentions, obviously.


Again...that particular statement was referencing the sexual jokes/emotes/whatever, not /check.

Quote:
When I argued this point before, it was because of the specific rhetoric used against /check. Most people analogized it to coming up to someone and reaching into their shirt to examine the label. Sometimes they went as far as to say underwear. I feel that's a fundamentally flawed analogy, because it relies on an emotional response to what we all recognize is a physical violation. It might be fair if your character performed the exact same set of actions to another character, but since that's not the case, I think it's a fair bit of exaggeration. And it's not like the clothes that we wear are significant for their +3 Dexterity, something which can't be grasped from a visual cue. No, it's really a very different and unique situation, and I don't feel that applying superfluous real-life values to it is necessary or appropriate.


Something that I learned as management in a "progressive" company in addition to my counseling training and experience is a concept best summed up as "perception is reality." If I'm just minding my own business, you walk up to me and start doing something that a) you don't need to be doing and b) it bothers me and I tell you that you're making me uncomfortable, I don't have to rationalize why I'm uncomfortable. If you're interested in being a decent human being, you'll respect my wishes. So when you get word that a noteworthy segment of FFXI's population is made uncomfortable by being /checked and would prefer to be asked before you do it, you have a choice to make. You can foster good will by honoring that request unless you know your /check is going to be a non-issue, or you can foster animosity by ignoring it.

Quote:
Now, if we want to talk real-world examples, I think it's worth noting that society does not always accommodate the beliefs of a minority. For example, a minority of the population believes that the amount of sexual content/violence in popular media is not appropriate, yet the level of such content simply persists, or even grows stronger. We collectively ignore the belief of that minority because it is in discord with the more popularly held one. I think that /check is kind of like that situation.


No, it's not like that situation. TV shows/movies/games/music come with content advisories. Content advisories are the response to balancing freedom of speech with respect for various different tolerances. They basically give someone a brief overview of what is contained in the media so that person can make a decision about whether or not the content is acceptable to them before they're actually subjected to the content. MMOs come with content advisories based on the actual content of the game with a caveat ("...experience may change"...) aimed at protecting the developers from action based on the behavior of the players, but that doesn't give the players carte blanche to do whatever the **** they want.
#50 Feb 23 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My reference to social conventions was aimed at the sexual references, not /check. Sexual innuendo/jokes/inferences aimed towards strangers is held almost universally as socially inappropriate in the real world, and there's no solid rationalization for why that social convention can be dismissed just because of teh intartoobs anonymity.

Quote:
Also, "for the sake of your own amusement" is quite a reach. Most people who used that function did it with innocent intentions, obviously.


Again...that particular statement was referencing the sexual jokes/emotes/whatever, not /check.


Gotcha.

Quote:
Something that I learned as management in a "progressive" company in addition to my counseling training and experience is a concept best summed up as "perception is reality." If I'm just minding my own business, you walk up to me and start doing something that a) you don't need to be doing and b) it bothers me and I tell you that you're making me uncomfortable, I don't have to rationalize why I'm uncomfortable. If you're interested in being a decent human being, you'll respect my wishes. So when you get word that a noteworthy segment of FFXI's population is made uncomfortable by being /checked and would prefer to be asked before you do it, you have a choice to make. You can foster good will by honoring that request unless you know your /check is going to be a non-issue, or you can foster animosity by ignoring it.


That would be all well and good, except in this case, it would mean that I would have to live my life assuming that it makes every person uncomfortable, though in fact, in only makes a certain percentage of the population uncomfortable. You see, it isn't just someone's wishes about your behavior with them personally. It's about changing the methodology of the entire community.

As far as the Japanese translation goes, I think that's an issue that's far better taken up with SE, not with the NA players. Petitioning Square to change the wording of /check would be a reasonable response, not suggesting that NA players are somehow "immature" for utilizing the in-game feature. That's unreasonable, and a bit chauvinistic, if you ask me. If issue was raised with Square, and they ignored it, then it's a problem with the company, not the players. Unfortunately, I don't know what developed with the problem on their side. If you happen to, please fill me in, I'm pretty curious.

Quote:
No, it's not like that situation. TV shows/movies/games/music come with content advisories. Content advisories are the response to balancing freedom of speech with respect for various different tolerances. They basically give someone a brief overview of what is contained in the media so that person can make a decision about whether or not the content is acceptable to them before they're actually subjected to the content. MMOs come with content advisories based on the actual content of the game with a caveat ("...experience may change"...) aimed at protecting the developers from action based on the behavior of the players, but that doesn't give the players carte blanche to do whatever the **** they want.


I wasn't suggesting anything that you paraphrased there, though. Consider my example the counterpoint to that second quote of yours that I have in this post: that we should change our behavior based upon what makes others uncomfortable. Simply put, I'm saying that no, we don't always have to do that. Sometimes, if the belief of the other person isn't in accord with the societal convention, then it's up to the minority to adapt instead. (It's important to note that I say "sometimes". It's a case-by-case thing that's dependent upon a lot of factors, like the amount of people affected, the reasonableness of the claim, the severity of the issue, and the range of solutions available.)

And as far as that adapting goes, I think a change in the language used in the Japanese version, plus the implementation of the toggle feature would have accomplished that perfectly well.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2010 3:23am by Eske
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#51 Feb 23 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
As far as the Japanese translation goes, I think that's an issue that's far better taken up with SE, not with the NA players. Petitioning Square to change the wording of /check would be a reasonable response, not suggesting that NA players are somehow "immature" for utilizing the in-game feature. That's unreasonable, and a bit chauvinistic, if you ask me. If issue was raised with Square, and they ignored it, then it's a problem with the company, not the players. Unfortunately, I don't know what developed with the problem on their side. If you happen to, please fill me in, I'm pretty curious.


The English client saw "<player> examines you." in their chat log when someone did a /check. The translation of the Japanese emote was basically, "<player> stares at you intently." It was largely a cultural thing. JP took it as an invasion of privacy and the translation did nothing but exacerbate the situation.

And your argument...that SE could have changed it or added a toggle...is a valid argument. By itself. SE could have changed it, but they didn't and that's all that matters. It's not about what could have been or should have been. It's about the reality of the situation, and the reality is that it was made known to the NA community that the JP found it rude and the NA continued to do it anyway. Some NA listened and had the social acumen to use the /check feature with discretion. Others ignored it. It came down to the same question: are your actions promoting good will or animosity? And all the deflections and all the blame and the denial of responsibility for their own behavior while simultaneously joining in the, "our game's community is so great!" circle jerk did nothing good for the NA community.

Quote:
I wasn't suggesting anything that you paraphrased there, though. Consider my example the counterpoint to that second quote of yours that I have in this post: that we should change our behavior based upon what makes others uncomfortable. Simply put, I'm saying that no, we don't always have to do that. Sometimes, if the belief of the other person isn't in accord with the societal convention, then it's up to the minority to adapt instead. (It's important to note that I say "sometimes". It's a case-by-case thing that's dependent upon a lot of factors, like the amount of people affected, the reasonableness of the claim, the severity of the issue, and the range of solutions available.)


You're dodging. If you know that what you're doing has the potential to make someone else uncomfortable and you do it anyways, you're being a jerk. It's not like not /checking someone is going to keep you from paying your bills or putting food on your table. It's not going to make your children sick or cause your house to burn down. If you think seeing what someone else is wearing justifies putting you at odds with a substantial segment of the community, you might want to rethink your priorities.

It's the same with the sexual innuendo/jokes/emotes. It's immature outside of your own social circle. It's a shining example of social ineptitude to run around being a crass idiot knowing that it could make people uncomfortable and then treating it like somehow your behavior is their fault. You have a choice around your own behavior. You can't choose how people will respond to you but you can apply a modicum of common sense and realize there's a pretty good chance it won't be received well. And again it comes down to the selfish individualism that says, "I do what I want when I want and if if bothers you, tough."

When I'm out in public and a group of young people is being loud and profane and rowdy, it doesn't surprise me. The hope is that someday they'll grow out of it and learn what it really means to be a part of a community. Until then, I just write them off as immature. When adults are out in behavior being loud and profane and rowdy, I write them off as morons.
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