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PSA: Top 10 annoying things to prepare for in FFXIVFollow

#102 Feb 24 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
Its not the point that you should not have to log off its the point that you should stop being sensitive. If you get offended in a game it was your fault most likely. Maybe you didn't start it but you let it get to you personally didn't you.
we all want to be respected and left alone in the ideal times etc ya ya we know we all do and life says {That's too bad}. for the record i'm never an ******* in the game and rarely have altercations about anything online. its just sad that some people can't get along and some people will always be ******** some will always cry about everything and take things too personal.
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#103 Feb 24 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I check everyone, sometimes more than once if they're really cool.

I remember the first time someone checked me multiple times, I thought either they were new or thought that my gear was pretty awesome. It could have been both, who knows?
I personally never had much of a problem being /checked, but I understood that was me. I was always amused when some body would have a clever emote as a reply to being checked, and that was really what first clued me into the idea that someone may have a problem with it.
Did I stop checking people? No. Did I think twice before doing it? Sometimes. Did I start to ask if I could check people? No, unless I was checking them more than once.
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#104 Feb 24 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm so checking everyone in 14 who has different gear then me, not to be rude but to see if there is anything that could make me better or somthing I might think looks good, also I remember doing NA only in my search comment just so I wouldn't have to use auto translate got alot of jp parties after that kinda weird.
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#105 Feb 24 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
xPeekABoo wrote:
Go get laid your too caught up in internet debates and MMO's!!!


Gather around, boys and girls, for today's object lesson:

xPeekABoo - Helps or harms the argument that NA players possess the maturity and insight to resolve conflict.

Discuss.


Bluefirefly wrote:
To address the specifically targeting /examine, that's not what I was explicitly trying to defend in my posts. But the Japanese are allowed to have their opinion as much as the next person, and the US is known for being a rather rude country, as can be seen in the quote above by our beloved xPeekABoo.


If it turns out that he's not from NA, you're both going to look silly! :P

Just popped back in to say that Aurelius, I'm sure you're aware that if I run into you in FFXIV you're gonna get /checked like 47 times. : )


Edited, Feb 25th 2010 12:01am by Eske
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#106 Feb 24 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Default
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xPeekABoo wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
If not to convince you you are mistaken in your opinion on this matter, then this post will serve to clean up some serious misinterpretations on your part, which I find surprising given you are an "emotional health professional," whatever that implies.


Go get laid your too caught up in internet debates and MMO's!!!


Do not take this post as me supporting Bluefirefly, but SHE is pretty hot and probably doesn't have issues with getting laid if she so desires.



Edited, Feb 25th 2010 12:10am by StartTrouble
#107 Feb 25 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Default
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some serious misinterpretations on your part, which I find surprising given you are an "emotional health professional," whatever that implies.


It implies nothing. Emotional health is the exact emphasis of my doctorate, so good luck clearing up my serious misinterpretations.

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Maybe this was just not your day.


Maybe. Odds are strongly leaning towards you not knowing what you're talking about, though.

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Yours just happened to be so flawed by my standards that I merely pointed out the issues. Rather than address them, you try to turn this into some personal attack to avoid discussing the issue that is actually at hand. I would definitely want someone to tell me if my argument was awful, and then point out why. Instead of wallowing in my ignorance, like you are telling me you want to do, I prefer to gain as much information as I can. I do have a bias, as everyone does in an argument, but I'm not "just another person who is wrong on the internet." I could easily say the same thing about you, but rather than stoop to such a petty level, I merely pointed out that your argument was terrible, not your point of view or you as a person. But I hope you feel all big and emotionally-health-professional in control and that you are so above being corrected. I am amazed you have gotten this far in life with such a world view.


HA. HA. HA.

Look, I'm not trying to make personal attacks here. You either didn't understand my point or have such poor judgment that you failed to recognize its merits. Either way, it's very hard to take you seriously. If I had even the faintest inkling of a sensation that you had anything meaningful to contribute to my understanding of the subject, I would gladly offer your insight the respect it deserves. Instead you dismissed my wisdom as absurdity, and are sharing what is clearly an uneducated opinion. If it makes you feel better to think that I'm just being a big ol' jerkface, then I welcome you to think so. I really don't care about your opinion of the matter (this is just ************ to me), because while you can say the same thing about me, it won't change the fact that I'm right and you're wrong. <- You can say that sentence as well, and I will still be right. <- And it just keeps on going like that.
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The health profession isn't exactly the most praised category for being able to help people with their issues.


You're right. That's why people are encouraged to turn to you to solve all their issues, because you know so much better than "the health profession." By the way, who is the most praised? I'm curious, because I thought it would be the same people who get results, and also happen to get a lot of praise.

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I actually don't have problems with people being rude to me on the internet, I'm simply speaking out for others who I know feel differently because people like you are trying to make them be a certain way so that others can get away with being desstructive.


Shows that you COMPLETELY missed the point of my post. Others already can get away with being destructive. I can't change that. You can't change that. Basically no one can (not SE, not your mommy, the guvment, etc.). It's a reality of our world that when we depend on others to accommodate our own emotional needs, we give them license to trample on our feelings. This is an inherent part of our psychology that is inevitably represented in our sociology.

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Maybe instead of making people be less sensitive, you should try fixing the people with the actual problems in the first place. But, hey, who am I to tell you how to do your jobs. It's way easier to just tell people to not trust strangers than it is to actually try to prevent people from being murderers, right?


Or maybe the most efficient method is to do BOTH. Seeing as resources are limited and there's no way we can "fix" everyone (even if we could FIND them). Defense and offense are both essential.

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I never said that anyone's emotions were right or wrong; it is you who is creating the standard.


Yeah, I did. There are few situations where its worthwhile to experience negative emotions. It's not a moral issue of right and wrong, but it's definitely an issue of better or worse. It's better NOT to be bothered by most of the things that people allow to bother them in our society. That certainly includes ***** on the internet, and even extends to serious cases to the extent that most situations can be dealt with just as effectively without sensitivity as with. e.g., it's better to put a murderer in jail and go on with your life than put a murderer in jail and be a sad and angry mess.

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If you are so simple-minded as to believe that it is not a doorway that allows people to have access to the safety of someone else's home, I don't really know how to explain it otherwise.


Yeah, I'm probably just simple-minded, even though I'm frequently recognized by others as exceptionally intelligent. It couldn't be that I find your arguments legitimately baseless.

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The internet can be dangerous, and being harassed by ***** is considered one of those dangers.


The internet is not that dangerous, and being harassed by ***** online is not a danger (and to the miniscule extent that it could be considered a danger, it is the easiest kind of danger to avoid). It can be perceived as a danger, but that doesn't make it so. We're not talking about people making serious threats against you. We're talking about people just being discourteous ******

And for the record, I think protecting people from negative emotions is a great thing, regardless of what you think of my methods. I don't think they much care that my method is to make them stronger people rather than to childproof the whole world.

We probably do not disagree that strongly or fundamentally, but I nonetheless enjoyed attacking your arguments. You really should not take it personally, not even if I'm being a bit of a ****.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#108 Feb 25 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Default
Eske wrote:
If it turns out that he's not from NA, you're both going to look silly! :P

Just popped back in to say that Aurelius, I'm sure you're aware that if I run into you in FFXIV you're gonna get /checked like 47 times. : )


And you'd get blacklisted like...once.
#109 Feb 25 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
some serious misinterpretations on your part, which I find surprising given you are an "emotional health professional," whatever that implies.


It implies nothing. Emotional health is the exact emphasis of my doctorate, so good luck clearing up my serious misinterpretations.


Do try to keep in mind that if arrogance is an asset in any profession, mental health is not it.
#110 Feb 25 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Default
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I know that bringing about a change in cognitive reasoning for the purpose of helping people see things in a more healthy and beneficial way is largely central to a number of therapeutic forms, but so is respecting an individual's right to self determination. Yes, it would be a benefit if everyone had a thicker skin. Yes, if you can convince someone to try and develop a thicker skin you're probably doing them a favor of sorts. But you can't create an expectation around it. Changing the way people think requires either trust or high explosives. If I tell you that something you're doing is making me uncomfortable and you keep doing it, you damage trust. As right as you may be, as important as your point may be to you, you had a chance to earn by collaborating and you blew it (figurative 'you', of course).


Well, I'm not creating expectations of anyone, personally. People will continue to be ***** and pussies, and ***** will keep pounding on pussies and pussies will keep taking the beating. Telling people to "stop being a ****" or "stop being a *****" is rarely a successful strategy.

However, people learn in complex and myriad ways, not just by "trust or high explosives."

I'm not on the clock here, and as I said before, don't feel any particular obligation to "do the right thing." It's easy for me to tell people to sack up, and is highly unlikely to hurt them. The typical failure of that strategy has been half-witnessed already. "No, OTHER people should be responsible for MY emotions," becomes a more salient mindset (because god knows they don't want to be a heartless jerk like they perceive me to be), but most people will eventually come to the realization that it's not a very adaptive worldview. And if they don't, oh well. I'm still going to live happily and then die.

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That's why I said cultural competency is a one way street. Expecting people to investigate and adapt to my way of thinking based on cultural conditioning is a doomed strategy. It would be nice if it was something we could all count on, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's not. And we've got thousands of years of violent human history to attest to what happens when you've got a group of people on each side of a proverbial battlefield saying, "If you're not going to see things my way, I'm not going to try to see things your way, so let's abandon negotiations and get down to the gory bits."


That's why it's pretty ******* adaptive to not care if other people "get it" or not. It would really be pretty hypocritical of me to allow the fact that other people are upset by my worldview to upset me. Afterall, it's largely their problem, and I am -mostly- being nice by making any effort to address it. I don't expect any appreciation or anything, because nice or not, it's not that selfless an endeavor. And I've kind of come to expect people to think that I'm an insensitive jerk for suggesting that they help themselves, even though anyone who knows me only knows me as a deeply loving and nurturing person.

Anyway, this is not a cultural issue for the most part, though I see the analogy. This is predominantly a general psychological issue that transcends culture. "Health" is mostly universal.

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This idea that you should just "feel your feelings" suggests that your initial emotional reaction to a situation is always the right one, and is complete nonsense.

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No, it's not. It's a fundamental requirement to developing the kind of self awareness that becomes a tool for positive growth/change. As a mental health professional, I'm sure you're as aware as anyone else how few people actually possess an accurate and healthy sense of self awareness. And the instant you start telling people that they're wrong for the way they feel, you...again...lose trust. Your ability to help them is diminished. Your ability to encourage them to see your point of view is all but destroyed, so either start stockpiling the C-4 or accept the ongoing conflict that develops.

No? Don't get me wrong-- it's an important strategy in dealing with serious traumatization, but we're not talking about rape or abuse victims, or generally any kind of situation that entails the need of grief counseling. And as I alluded to before, a counseling method is not the same as a counseling goal. A counselor can feign acceptance and validation of all feelings, recognizing that it would be counterproductive to tell you to sack up, but ultimately their goal is for you to sack up and get on with your life. I'm not here as a counselor, and it exceeds my limits as an individual to genuinely care about whether all the people here or in FFXIV are emotionally self-actualized individuals.

So I'm not going to attempt to create a safe place for you (ambiguous) to share your feelings and try to help you work through them at your own pace. I'm going to cut the **** and tell you that ultimately, you are asking people who don't, won't and can't care about you to not kick your ***, and then when they do, you also kick yourself in the *** by letting it bother you. You may sway a few people, and by all means try if you have it in you, but you are seriously shortchanging your growth and wellbeing as a person if you embrace that as your one and only strategy for emotional resolution.

For the love of you, do not depend on others, on the internet or in person, to provide you with emotional security and treat your feelings gently. Do yourself a favor and grow a thick skin. It is not an easy thing, but it is a worthwhile endeavor. As for self awareness, that is a skill that you develop as a part of that process. You definitely have to acknowledge your initial feelings, but you also have to learn not to run with them. Sometimes someone does something and I feel angry, and I have to acknowledge that I feel angry, assess whether or not I should feel angry (the answer is basically always "no" because I don't LIKE being angry), and then stray away from those angry cognitions. Another important aspect of this process is preventing those initial negative feelings altogether by emotionally conditioning yourself.

I look back on many situations where I could have let my emotions get the better of me (and society would have vindicated me), and know that I am a much happier person as a result of learning to take responsibility for my own emotions. I only wish the same for everyone. Frankly it is much easier to convince someone to do themselves a favor than it is to convince them to do favors of courtesy for others.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#111 Feb 25 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Default
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Do try to keep in mind that if arrogance is an asset in any profession, mental health is not it.


I'm a determinist through and through. I am essentially incapable of arrogance.

Confidence I have in spades though, and rightfully so. I am an extremely capable intellect, through no real virtue of my own.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#112 Feb 25 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Eske wrote:
If it turns out that he's not from NA, you're both going to look silly! :P

Just popped back in to say that Aurelius, I'm sure you're aware that if I run into you in FFXIV you're gonna get /checked like 47 times. : )


And you'd get blacklisted like...once.


Touché, salesman.
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#113 Feb 25 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Do try to keep in mind that if arrogance is an asset in any profession, mental health is not it.


I'm a determinist through and through. I am essentially incapable of arrogance.

Confidence I have in spades though, and rightfully so. I am an extremely capable intellect, through no real virtue of my own.


Now, granted, my knowledge on the subject extends about as far as Wikipedia's entry on it, but how does determinism preclude arrogance exactly?
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#116 Feb 25 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Default
xPeekABoo wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
xPeekABoo wrote:
Go get laid your too caught up in internet debates and MMO's!!!


Gather around, boys and girls, for today's object lesson:

xPeekABoo - Helps or harms the argument that NA players possess the maturity and insight to resolve conflict.

Discuss.


I am actually Brazilian, I guess you have failed in trying to say NA players don't possess the maturity and insight to resolve conflict.


I made no statement...I posed a topic for discussion.

Your response was still pretty lame, though. Actually, more than pretty lame. Your momma must be real proud of you.
#118 Feb 25 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Default
Kachi wrote:
Well, I'm not creating expectations of anyone, personally. People will continue to be ***** and pussies, and ***** will keep pounding on pussies and pussies will keep taking the beating. Telling people to "stop being a ****" or "stop being a @#%^" is rarely a successful strategy.

However, people learn in complex and myriad ways, not just by "trust or high explosives."


I'm guessing that at some point throughout your education you've been required to invest some time in a counseling/therapeutic capacity or that you've been working in that capacity while pursuing your doctorate so you're well aware that establishing a measure of trust with the people you're trying to help is an enormous benefit. Without it, they're more inclined to hear what they expect you to say and less inclined to apply what they've learned from you.

Quote:
I'm not on the clock here, and as I said before, don't feel any particular obligation to "do the right thing." It's easy for me to tell people to sack up, and is highly unlikely to hurt them. The typical failure of that strategy has been half-witnessed already. "No, OTHER people should be responsible for MY emotions," becomes a more salient mindset (because god knows they don't want to be a heartless jerk like they perceive me to be), but most people will eventually come to the realization that it's not a very adaptive worldview. And if they don't, oh well. I'm still going to live happily and then die.


You're providing a great argument for individualism. What you're not addressing is how that individualism fits within the context of a community.

Quote:
That's why it's pretty @#%^ing adaptive to not care if other people "get it" or not. It would really be pretty hypocritical of me to allow the fact that other people are upset by my worldview to upset me. Afterall, it's largely their problem, and I am -mostly- being nice by making any effort to address it. I don't expect any appreciation or anything, because nice or not, it's not that selfless an endeavor. And I've kind of come to expect people to think that I'm an insensitive jerk for suggesting that they help themselves, even though anyone who knows me only knows me as a deeply loving and nurturing person.

Anyway, this is not a cultural issue for the most part, though I see the analogy. This is predominantly a general psychological issue that transcends culture. "Health" is mostly universal.


"Health" has to take into account cultural conditioning and expectations.

Quote:
No? Don't get me wrong-- it's an important strategy in dealing with serious traumatization, but we're not talking about rape or abuse victims, or generally any kind of situation that entails the need of grief counseling. And as I alluded to before, a counseling method is not the same as a counseling goal. A counselor can feign acceptance and validation of all feelings, recognizing that it would be counterproductive to tell you to sack up, but ultimately their goal is for you to sack up and get on with your life. I'm not here as a counselor, and it exceeds my limits as an individual to genuinely care about whether all the people here or in FFXIV are emotionally self-actualized individuals.


I think your perspectives are largely naive on this. And I think that if that attitude follows you into a clinical therapeutic role, you're not only going to accomplish less than you think you will, but you're also going to run the risk of creating harm. I think that, based on what you've said here, you grossly underestimate the role of biological and social influences on mental health. More specifically relevant to this discussion, ignoring social (cultural) influences on perception is counterproductive.

Quote:
So I'm not going to attempt to create a safe place for you (ambiguous) to share your feelings and try to help you work through them at your own pace. I'm going to cut the sh*t and tell you that ultimately, you are asking people who don't, won't and can't care about you to not kick your ***, and then when they do, you also kick yourself in the *** by letting it bother you. You may sway a few people, and by all means try if you have it in you, but you are seriously shortchanging your growth and wellbeing as a person if you embrace that as your one and only strategy for emotional resolution.


I'm guessing that would be your response in a general social capacity and not a therapeutic one. I was always taught that the first step to being a good counselor or therapist was to be a good citizen. Don't get me wrong...you've seen my posts here. If someone feels it's appropriate to let their bias influence their response to me, I'm not averse to mixing it up. And when it comes to in-game interaction with other players in an MMO, I'm largely interested in performance. Someone can be the most amicable person I've ever met but at the end of the day if they can't perform, they remain that person I chat happily with but don't necessarily call upon on a regular basis to group with. At a base level, however, I personally believe that a measure of respect is due to all people regardless of their level of skill and attentiveness, unless and until they demonstrate individually that they don't deserve it.

Quote:
For the love of you, do not depend on others, on the internet or in person, to provide you with emotional security and treat your feelings gently. Do yourself a favor and grow a thick skin. It is not an easy thing, but it is a worthwhile endeavor. As for self awareness, that is a skill that you develop as a part of that process. You definitely have to acknowledge your initial feelings, but you also have to learn not to run with them. Sometimes someone does something and I feel angry, and I have to acknowledge that I feel angry, assess whether or not I should feel angry (the answer is basically always "no" because I don't LIKE being angry), and then stray away from those angry cognitions. Another important aspect of this process is preventing those initial negative feelings altogether by emotionally conditioning yourself.


I agree. I agree 100%. Unfortunately, what you've said doesn't apply outside your scope of influence. And it doesn't provide a working solution to what happens if you find out that a particular group of people is offended by a particular unnecessary action and the goal in mind is to preserve a healthy, functional community. It would be smart to accept that you're not going to be able to make everyone happy all the time. It would be smart to accept that sooner or later, no matter how hard you try, you're going to come across people that carry unreasonable expectations and it would be unhealthy to go out of your way to appease them. It would also be smart to accept your part in a given conflict and determine whether or not the benefits accrued to you based on your behavior warrant the conflict. And when it comes down the the individualistic attitudes and beliefs widespread throughout various different cultures, it would be smart to accept that for a lot of people, any level of conflict short of physical harm or dire sanctions is acceptable for the sake of doing what you want to do. Adopting that approach, however, and then crying when the people you have put yourself at odds with tell you to **** off is neither smart nor healthy nor particularly mature.
#119 Feb 25 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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1-10: People complaining about people potentially complaining about potential problems that are equally unlikely to occur.


More seriously, having to re-level all my jobs that I already leveled under different names. Also just silly names, I can't read "pugilist" without envisioning something to do with large brown fish.
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#120 Feb 25 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
OddysseusOfRamuh wrote:
1-10: People complaining about people potentially complaining about potential problems that are equally unlikely to occur.


More seriously, having to re-level all my jobs that I already leveled under different names. Also just silly names, I can't read "pugilist" without envisioning something to do with large brown fish.


A "pugilist" is another word for a boxer or, more generally, a fighter.

Edited, Feb 25th 2010 10:52am by AureliusSir
#121 Feb 25 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, maybe I missed something.
I quit playing 11 about 3 or 4 years ago, when I was on No one cared if you checked them.

When did it become all inflaming?

Quote:
I can't read "pugilist" without envisioning something to do with large brown fish


I always picture a, 1893 British guy with a handlebar mustache challenging his opponents to Fisticuffs.
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#122 Feb 25 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Ok, maybe I missed something.
I quit playing 11 about 3 or 4 years ago, when I was on No one cared if you checked them.

When did it become all inflaming?


It's never been a big issue in the English version, it's always been an issue in the Japanese version because their text reads something like "[Character name] stares at you intensely waiting to jump you and take everything."
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#123 Feb 25 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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And you'd get blacklisted like...once.


Really?
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#124 Feb 25 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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A "pugilist" is another word for a boxer or, more generally, a fighter.


And to those who have played FFXI it will be someone to remind them about the **** that was dealing with noobs in Valkurm or Qufim as they died from "Screwdriver".
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#125 Feb 25 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
AlexanderrOfAsura wrote:
Quote:
A "pugilist" is another word for a boxer or, more generally, a fighter.


And to those who have played FFXI it will be someone to remind them about the **** that was dealing with noobs in Valkurm or Qufim as they died from "Screwdriver".


I played FFXI. I didn't think of Pugils when I saw Pugilist...I saw a character standing their with fist weapons and the class name made perfect sense.
#126 Feb 25 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
Elmyrsun wrote:
Ok, maybe I missed something.
I quit playing 11 about 3 or 4 years ago, when I was on No one cared if you checked them.

When did it become all inflaming?


Thread here.

and I had to suppress a chuckle when this one came up in the search. The farthest back I found any reference to the conflict over the /check feature was 2003. The last thread where it came up in the subject line was January of 2006.

(Edit to add: these are just two examples. The forum search for 'examine' came up with 519 hits, but not all of those involved the /check feature and a single thread with 'examine' in the subject would count one hit for each post in the thread.)

Edited, Feb 25th 2010 12:05pm by AureliusSir
#127 Feb 25 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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Now, granted, my knowledge on the subject extends about as far as Wikipedia's entry on it, but how does determinism preclude arrogance exactly?


Being a good determinist entails accepting that everything that you are is purely by the whim of chance (or more accurately, the physical laws of the world). While I could theoretically have an inflated sense of self importance within a context and still be a determinist, ultimately I wouldn't be a good determinist if I didn't at least acknowledge that my hypothetical "greatness" was through no personal virtue of my own. It's a philosophy you can't really adopt without putting yourself in your place.

Quote:
you're well aware that establishing a measure of trust with the people you're trying to help is an enormous benefit.


Except that within this capacity, I'm not really invested in helping anyone. I'm playing a video game or ******* around a forum for my personal amusement and recreation.

Quote:

You're providing a great argument for individualism. What you're not addressing is how that individualism fits within the context of a community.


I'm not addressing that now because that's not something that anyone took serious issue with. I am scarcely an individualist-- that is only one side of the coin. I could go on and on about the other side, and in fact I have (you've probably seen me go on and on about social responsibility). That's why I very succinctly laid out the compensatory nature of the ideals. The individualist is one side, but it needs to overshoot the collectivist side and vice versa.

Quote:
"Health" has to take into account cultural conditioning and expectations.


Not as a product. As a process, yes, but there is nothing culturally relative about health outcomes. Obviously emotional adjustment is largely determined by the context in which the individual is embedded, but the end product emotions are not relative. We both know I'm oversimplifying for the purposes of the argument, I think.

Quote:
I think your perspectives are largely naive on this. And I think that if that attitude follows you into a clinical therapeutic role, you're not only going to accomplish less than you think you will, but you're also going to run the risk of creating harm. I think that, based on what you've said here, you grossly underestimate the role of biological and social influences on mental health. More specifically relevant to this discussion, ignoring social (cultural) influences on perception is counterproductive.


We can talk more about this, but I don't think you've any kind of accurate measure of my understanding of biological and social influences on mental health. I would not ignore social influences (emotional and social health go hand in hand afterall), but let me ask this so we can just get right to it-- to what extent do social influences influence our outcome goals? They don't really, do they? Short term goals, definitely, but long term goals are pretty much one-size-fits-all. We want all people to be happy and emotionally resilient, yet mindful and considerate of how their behaviors impact those around them (which does factor in social contexts, but only on the one side). To those extents I will agree with you, but if you think they play an even more important role, please explain.

Most likely you're just transferring your perceptions of my analysis of one domain to an entirely different one where they really aren't applicable.

Quote:
Unfortunately, what you've said doesn't apply outside your scope of influence. And it doesn't provide a working solution to what happens if you find out that a particular group of people is offended by a particular unnecessary action and the goal in mind is to preserve a healthy, functional community.


Granted, that's true. And if I were on the clock, that might matter to me. I could go over counseling methods to promote emotional resiliency, but that's neither especially relevant nor entertaining. For my part as a professional, those are my goals, not my methods. If people could be made to be happy by simply telling them to "get over it," there wouldn't be a need for my field. On the other hand, tough love is not entirely without place in counseling.

I actually had a related conflict (not anything near a fight) with my girlfriend the other day. I'm prone to tease a lot and it was starting to bother her a bit. Even though she knows I'm 100% kidding, she has hangups over an old boyfriend who would say similar things in complete seriousness. Now, not everyone may think me the world's greatest boyfriend for this, but my response to her was that for my part, I would tone down the teasing, and for her part, she'd need to get over it because I'm not going to give up that part of myself to appease an irrational (though legitimate) oversensitivity. However reticently for both of us, this was an agreeable compromise. In time she will become less affected by my teasing and I could stand to exercise some restraint in calling people ********

Quote:
Adopting that approach, however, and then crying when the people you have put yourself at odds with tell you to @#%^ off is neither smart nor healthy nor particularly mature.


I think that's what I was saying about people with hypocritical sensitization.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#128 Feb 25 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Now, granted, my knowledge on the subject extends about as far as Wikipedia's entry on it, but how does determinism preclude arrogance exactly?


Being a good determinist entails accepting that everything that you are is purely by the whim of chance (or more accurately, the physical laws of the world). While I could theoretically have an inflated sense of self importance within a context and still be a determinist, ultimately I wouldn't be a good determinist if I didn't at least acknowledge that my hypothetical "greatness" was through no personal virtue of my own. It's a philosophy you can't really adopt without putting yourself in your place.


Ah, gotcha. Thanks for explaining.
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#129 Feb 25 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
Granted, that's true. And if I were on the clock, that might matter to me. I could go over counseling methods to promote emotional resiliency, but that's neither especially relevant nor entertaining. For my part as a professional, those are my goals, not my methods. If people could be made to be happy by simply telling them to "get over it," there wouldn't be a need for my field. On the other hand, tough love is not entirely without place in counseling.


I've applied both "tough love" and more empathetic approaches, so I understand where you're coming from. It's a question of the goal as well as the rapport you have with an individual. I've seen situations where overly empathetic approaches over a prolonged period of time have created harm. I've also seen situation where more direct, "to the point" approaches have done the same.

Regardless of how it may seem, I'm not defending the sensitivity of the Japanese players. My point is simply that people who knowingly engage in behaviors that are likely to create conflict have no business complaining when they experience consequences as a result of that conflict be it (in the context of an MMO) GM intervention/account action, exclusion from the activities of a particular group of players, or subsequent conflict of a communicative nature.
#130 Feb 25 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

Look, I'm not trying to make personal attacks here. You either didn't understand my point or have such poor judgment that you failed to recognize its merits. Either way, it's very hard to take you seriously. If I had even the faintest inkling of a sensation that you had anything meaningful to contribute to my understanding of the subject, I would gladly offer your insight the respect it deserves. Instead you dismissed my wisdom as absurdity, and are sharing what is clearly an uneducated opinion. If it makes you feel better to think that I'm just being a big ol' jerkface, then I welcome you to think so. I really don't care about your opinion of the matter (this is just ************ to me), because while you can say the same thing about me, it won't change the fact that I'm right and you're wrong. <- You can say that sentence as well, and I will still be right. <- And it just keeps on going like that.


And you're saying it's hard to take ME seriously? Please, if anything it sounds like my education on this matter is far superior to yours. Did you take your classes in Burma or something? Dragging your profession in not as a supporting factor but to say you are above defending your argument just discredits it that much more. Please give me the number to your office so I can make sure no one goes through any damage thanks to your lack of a good education. If you even have an office. Just because someone isn't an "emotional health professional" doesn't mean they have a less valid argument than you do. I personally think you're too immature to deal with people's emotional health. Thank you for severely damaging my faith in those who work in your field. But don't worry, I don't think you're a meany-head-jerkface. I'm not as easily offended as you apparently think I am.

Quote:
You're right. That's why people are encouraged to turn to you to solve all their issues, because you know so much better than "the health profession." By the way, who is the most praised? I'm curious, because I thought it would be the same people who get results, and also happen to get a lot of praise.


I am very curious to know what your ACTUAL profession is. We all know psychologists are different from psychiatrists, etc. Trying to group yourself in with people who actually do have some weight in the matter and using simple jargon as a shield makes me wonder even more how legitimate your "degree" really is. They really do make it far too easy for people to pass college courses nowadays. Every "emotional health professional" has their own way of doing things and does not necessarily have the same objective, so stop waiving the "field" around like some sort of sword you clearly don't even understand yourself. I'm sure I have helped people more than some health professionals, and I'm sure there are health professionals who have helped people more than I have. That certainly doesn't make you one of them.

Quote:
Yeah, I'm probably just simple-minded, even though I'm frequently recognized by others as exceptionally intelligent. It couldn't be that I find your arguments legitimately baseless.


It's really not that hard to take the *****-*** route like you, but I prefer to actually stick to the point or stop arguing if I actually don't care to prove my point instead of turning it into a ******* contest. It appears you are not only implying, but straight up saying you are smarter than me just because the people you associate with deem you so. I am also considered highly intelligent, but I'm not so petty as to resort to using it in the place of a legitimate point. I try to let my arguments speak for themselves, and rather than get personally offended and reassert my intelligence by tearing someone elses down, I merely inform someone of their ignorance using hopefully legitimate points. Being ignorant and being stupid are two different things. While your ignorance has yet to be assessed, your stupidity is clear in your immature comebacks. If you do not intend on making something clear to me regarding my argument, don't bother responding to it. Other people may appreciate your "I'm God, don't question me because you're wrong!" antics, but they're really just boring to me at this point. I'd actually really like to respect your arguments but your attitude makes it physically impossible. So, you win?

As for PeekABoo, all I have to say is thank God you are not representing the NA players. We can still have hope. I think it says a lot more about you if you're posting ridiculous poems you made up (just for me <3) about topics you supposedly don't care about than me having a debate with Kachi. Someone was getting a little jealous it seems. ;) Must be that mediocre *** life you're not enjoying.
#131 Feb 26 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Basically you haven't MADE any legitimate arguments. You just drone on and on about how bad I am at a profession you don't really know anything about. Plus you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think I have anything to prove to you. Your opinion of me truly means nothing. You don't know me as a person or a professional, but you're prepared to judge me nonetheless. So even to the extent that I am capable of caring what some random internet person thinks of me, a particularly ignorant specimen such as yourself gets nothing.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#132 Feb 26 2010 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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223 posts
Kachi wrote:
Basically you haven't MADE any legitimate arguments. You just drone on and on about how bad I am at a profession you don't really know anything about. Plus you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think I have anything to prove to you. Your opinion of me truly means nothing. You don't know me as a person or a professional, but you're prepared to judge me nonetheless. So even to the extent that I am capable of caring what some random internet person thinks of me, a particularly ignorant specimen such as yourself gets nothing.


I wouldn't say I'm particularly ignorant, or a specimen, seeing as my uncle is a psychiatrist. But, Kachi, I heart you. *hugs it out* I don't care if you're bad at your profession, we want you on ZAM just the way you are! *sans sarcasm*
#133 Feb 26 2010 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Both cultures should have met halfway. Its idiotic for either culture to demand that "their way" of doing things is the right way.

JP players needed to realize that A.) A lot of NA players had no idea it was an invasion of their privacy. And B.) Most NA players are fine -- and even wanted to be checked (look at my cool bling!) -- with being checked.

NA players needed to realize that A.) It was translated very poorly. B.) The Japanese culture tends to frown on stuff like that.

Both cultures needed to stop and say, "Hey, we're from different cultures and we do things a little bit differently. No offense is meant."

Of course, SE really could have nipped this whole thing in the bud much sooner than they did. Should they have? Yeah. They wanted to build a cross culture game. They should have seen some of this up front. And the stuff the didn't see up front should have been fixed as soon as it was a known issue. If you're going to make a game that spans cultures, then it becomes your responsibility to do what you reasonably can ensure those cultures don't clash.
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#134 Feb 26 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
So much awesomeness in the last few posts not point quoting it all.
I love how the thread has gone haywire.
especially the mental health professional's little discussion and Aurelius's.
all I really want to know now is how exactly is checking a JP player disrespectful? Pure curiosity.
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#135 Feb 26 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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The OP forgot one.

0. Threads like this.
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#136 Mar 05 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
nm

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 11:54pm by matthewdorothy
#137 Mar 05 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Default
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Bluefirefly wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Basically you haven't MADE any legitimate arguments. You just drone on and on about how bad I am at a profession you don't really know anything about. Plus you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think I have anything to prove to you. Your opinion of me truly means nothing. You don't know me as a person or a professional, but you're prepared to judge me nonetheless. So even to the extent that I am capable of caring what some random internet person thinks of me, a particularly ignorant specimen such as yourself gets nothing.


I wouldn't say I'm particularly ignorant, or a specimen, seeing as my uncle is a psychiatrist. But, Kachi, I heart you. *hugs it out* I don't care if you're bad at your profession, we want you on ZAM just the way you are! *sans sarcasm*


The psychiatric field is about as useless as any other non-factual, pompous, self-professing profession. Just because he uses a thesaurus, he's able to make you perceive his arguments as more than just another random opinion. Seriously, arts degrees are for people who know how to ********* not how to think logically.
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#138 Mar 06 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Just trolling around and ive only read the first page of posts but in reference to the person saying "you cant
act/say anything you want just cause its a game" (referring to examining ppl). Just one thing:

Notice: game experience may change during online play

I will act/say and /examine as much as I **** well please and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
In fact the whiney ppl complaining about stupid courtisies in a VIDEO GAME should and will be targetted
for even further harassment. And before anyone says "Ill just report you and get u banned" please...ive been
around the MMO block more than once and thats complete BS. In all the games ive played I have never seen
anyone including myself that has been banned or whatever for harassement/using an in-game feature.
#139 Mar 06 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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lawlz at people saying "I don't like being checked, and I don't want to use the filter. So don't check me."

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 2:24am by Deadgye
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#140 Mar 06 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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FFDude wrote:
I will act/say and /examine as much as I **** well please and there is nothing you can do to stop me.
In fact the whiney ppl complaining about stupid courtisies in a VIDEO GAME should and will be targetted
for even further harassment. And before anyone says "Ill just report you and get u banned" please...ive been
around the MMO block more than once and thats complete BS. In all the games ive played I have never seen
anyone including myself that has been banned or whatever for harassement/using an in-game feature.


That's interesting, because I have.

While I'm not speaking on behalf of the /examine argument, as for the act/say comments, I think people are really more referring to the losers who can't control themselves and instead of politely obliging to someone who asks them to stop, take more time out of their already empty lives to continuously harass people. People realize that not everyone in an MMO are going to know how each individual feels about certain things, but it's not too much to expect someone to stop if they're asked. You can very easily assume if someone takes advantage of the anonymity of a videogame, it is because they wouldn't stand a chance saying/acting that way irl. I really find it amusing that people go to such lengths to try and be douchebags. I wonder what you're really gaining out of it? Oh right, you're showing those pussies a thing or two about expecting people to respect their space or beliefs. You're really teaching them a lesson...

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 9:03am by Bluefirefly
#141 Mar 06 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe I'm the minority here, but even when people have attempted to harass me in-game it never really bothered me much.
Oh gee, you're making you Taru look like he's humping my dead body.....
You think my gear is so special that you have to /check me 15 times in less than a minute....
Ummm yeah, ok, you go ahead and waste your own time, and I'm gonna get on with my gaming experience.

Look I'm not completely innocent either, I've taken part in /shout convos across WG, I've stood there and talked to someone I don't know who is AFK for a good 20 or 30 lines.

The point is, I think it's a case of "to each their own". Somethings are gonna bug some people and other people aren't even going notice at all. The common rule I try my best to follow is simple, Don't do something that I wouldn't want done to me. Sure it's not foolproof, cause as I said a lot of the crap some people pull just doesn't faze me, but it's worked out pretty well for me so far.

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 11:23am by ReiThor
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#142 Mar 06 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Oh gee, you're making you Taru look like he's humping my dead body.....


i'd actually welcome that, hahaha. tarus are so cute.

anyhow..

they need to bring back trains; that way i can be in a party healing the group and then get zerged from behind by a thousand beetles.

i love getting zerged from behind.

Edited, Mar 6th 2010 6:42pm by snuggans
#143 Mar 06 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The psychiatric field is about as useless as any other non-factual, pompous, self-professing profession. Just because he uses a thesaurus, he's able to make you perceive his arguments as more than just another random opinion. Seriously, arts degrees are for people who know how to bullsh*t, not how to think logically.


Non-factual? Are you kidding me? Arts degree? You really know absolutely nothing about the psychiatric field, do you?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#144 Mar 06 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
Pluelf wrote:
The psychiatric field is about as useless as any other non-factual, pompous, self-professing profession. Just because he uses a thesaurus, he's able to make you perceive his arguments as more than just another random opinion. Seriously, arts degrees are for people who know how to bullsh*t, not how to think logically.


A psychiatric Ph.D. is built on a B.Sc., not a B.A.. It also requires time spent in medical school.
#145 Mar 10 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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...[edit] missed a page of the thread before I posted...

Edited, Mar 10th 2010 7:04pm by Calispel
#146 Mar 11 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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11.) Hearing "Where is Sulu?!?!" over and over in local chat.


Whoops, wrong game. (Still very true though.)
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#147 Mar 12 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent
11) "I have 20 level 99 jobs on ffxi and I can tell you that you're doing that wrong, despite the fact that this game has a completely different battle system than ffxi" from a person with a second grade grasp of grammar and spelling. Hukd on fonix wukd fo me!
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#148 Mar 12 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Default
How about, People hijacking a thread to showboat their profession/education/verbosity, while I'm trying to find something interesting to read about the top 10 annoying things to prepare for in the FFXIV thread.


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The pen struggles to write fancy words to impress,
But is there a need to impress?
Impress through scribbles on paper...
or flashing fingers on keypads...
or sweat and blood on the printing press?
No, there is no more need for fancy words.
There is only a need to write.
Write to inform,
Write to entertain,
Write to live,
Write write write.
Nothing fancy about it at all.

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#149 Mar 13 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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How about people bumping threads that they apparently don't like?

Btw, bump.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#150 Mar 13 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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14. Comparisons to FFXI.
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