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Discipline of the Hand: my hopesFollow

#1 Mar 04 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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Seeing as how they have divided up the 4 spheres that most mmo's share (that being melee, magic, gathering and crafting) into their own unique class sets, it is my hope that they actually do crafting justice. Here is what i would love to see:

CRAFTING THAT IS AN ENGAGING ACTIVITY!!

I mean, look at games like bejeweled, which are extraordinarily simple, yet have hundreds of thousands (if not millions) addicted to them. Or how addictive the card game was in ffIX; why not implement something like that to crafting? Some type of mini game based on skill or strategy, which at the end effects the quality of your work.

By engaging, i mean something along the lines of what vanguard attempted to do, but actually succeed. I would personally love it if it took 5 minutes to make basic things, and up to 2 hours for more complex armors/weapons/potions/etc. Sorta like a dungeon for crafting, which takes both time and effort to complete.

I am just truly tired of the half-assed crafting systems that many mmo's today just tack on to their game, just to say they have it. Having the items in your inventory, they pressing 2 buttons and *POOF!*, like magic you have the item.

Well, here's to hoping anyway. What are your hopes for the Hand?
#2 Mar 04 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
Minor nitpick and not to derail your thread, but it's Disciple, not Discipline.
#3 Mar 04 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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assataru wrote:
CRAFTING THAT IS AN ENGAGING ACTIVITY!!

I completely agree, minus the caps, and have been saying something similar for a long time. However, I very much disagree with you that time should necessarily be a component. I think forcing a player to spend 2 hours crafting something that could easily take 5 minutes is just wasting their time.

Crafting should probably be a minigame. If anyone has played puzzle pirates, they implemented the concept quite well for the bulk of their game play. I want crafting to not be a mindless activity; there should be skill and challenge. The better you complete the puzzle, the better the result.

All of the immediate problems I can think of are easily solvable. "Won't that get tedious for crafting 50 ingots?" Just add a feature to select how many items you wish to craft beforehand, and so you must only complete 1 puzzle to craft those 50 items.

I also like what Warhammer tried to do with crafting, by giving players flexibility in recipes. In Warhammer you had a key ingredient which determined the item you would make, but you had optional ingredients which affected the result. If you were making a strength potion for example, you could add optional ingredients to make it more stable (reduce failure chance), make a greater quantity, make a more potent potion, make a longer lasting potion, etc.
#4 Mar 04 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone played Puzzle Quest? Crafting in that was fun and challenging, and depending on the difficulty of the item it could take you anywhere from 20 seconds to 15 minutes.
If crafting is engaging like that... well Alchemy/blacksmith here I come!
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#5 Mar 04 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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while not exactly a 'crafting' profession, i did enjoy how they revamped the Fishing from FFXI. something along those lines can be done for all crafts, or they can even go the distance and add entire new interfaces for each. i'd also like to see a wider and stronger influence from crafting on everything else that is not crafting.
#6 Mar 04 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have been reading Zam religiously since Final Fantasy XI first arrived, and have yet to post once. This topic brings something I am really interested in.

I played Everquest II for a few months after the release, and the crafting in that game was the greatest I have experienced in any game thus yet. You didn't just click your materials into a menu, click create, and hope for the best. You basically had an entire additional spellbook for different "counter-spells" to use during the crafting process. Say you want to make a cloth item, during the process it could "snag" and you had a few "spell" options to choose from to recover from the error before you screwed up the said item being created. Some of the spells had drawbacks on top of fixing one issue. I.E It would fix a snag, but create another issue, forcing you to carefully compensate and plan out your crafting. It would take quite a while to create decent to great items. If this has changed since then, dont flame me, as I haven't played it in a LONG time. But anyone interested could research it up out of curiosity.

To see something of that sort implemented into Final Fantasy XIV, would be amazing I believe.

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#7 Mar 04 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree that it should be an "engaging activity" as you put it. I don't mind putting a couple hours into crafting something if it's fun, this however, does not entail long hours of running around trying to find merchants in certain regions that may or may not have what you're looking for. It worked in XI and it was fun for a good while, but I'd like to see something a little bit...more dramatic, yeah, I think that's the word I'm looking for.
#8 Mar 04 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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No, PLEASE not like EQ2. While I didn't mind the "game" you had to play in order to craft, it caused the process to take upwards of 3 minutes PER item made. I wouldn't mind a quick 15-30 second game, but anything that makes crafting take longer than that is a rather large detriment.
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#9 Mar 04 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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My hopes:

Farmville ala FFXIV...

That's a sure fire way to get at least another 5 million users addicted to ffxiv...
#10 Mar 04 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Default
MetalSmith wrote:
My hopes:

Farmville ala FFXIV...

That's a sure fire way to get at least another 5 million users addicted to ffxiv...


I generally don't mind farming as long as the drop rates on common crafting materials are reasonable. Even 20-25% is not bad. I can remember going on Beehive Chip farming expeditions in FFXI and frequently go 20-30 kills without seeing a single chip drop. Even better when I'd come across Stinging Sophie...who you'd think, being an NM and all, would be at least a guaranteed drop of a Beehive Chip if nothing else, only to get...nothing. If the drop rates are high enough that you feel like you're making progress, it's fun. If you start dreading your next kill because you don't think you can stand any more disappointment, it's broken.
#11 Mar 04 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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you missed it.

Farmville is a stupid facebook app that my wall is spamed with 5 million times a day with weird ****. Everyone loves it. SE needs to pull a microsoft and add it to have a similar way of gardening in ffxiv.
#12 Mar 04 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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never played farmville, better things to waste my time on lol... as for spending hours crafting one item, i dunno. definately need to do something with it. once u add in the hours you put into farming up the items for the crafting, you will have alraedy put hours into the crafting <,< unless of course your made of money and just buy most everything.
i was just wondering something when farmville was mentioned, i wonder how gardening will be in ffxiv. just a simple pot? or like rows of corn/plants? i think having our own house with a nice little garden would be cool lol. i reckon it could work similar to the moghouse where everyone walks into the the same house and it is theres instead of having huge neighborhoods of everyones houses. then maybe be able to walk out the back door to your garden. lol i dunno just a random thought.
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#13 Mar 05 2010 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, as far as how farmville works for that:

Each plant takes X amount of time to grow, ranging from 2 hours to 4 days or something like that. You then have X time to harvest said plants, after which, they wilt.

You could have plants ranging from grasses that grow in a matter of hours to Crops like cotton that take a day or so.

You could also have trees that grow up and mature. You can then decide whether to harvest fruit from them every could of days or harvest the tree for lumber (Cherry, Walnut, Oak, Almond trees for example.) Or have trees that take a very long time to grow and can only be harvested for wood. Ash, Maple, Mahogony, Pine.

One change I would make, Make an HQ like system set up to each plant having a 5% or so for HQ items, and then give 2 chances to fertilize for 2% increases in HQ or something like that.
#14 Mar 05 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
...it caused the process to take upwards of 3 minutes PER item made. I wouldn't mind a quick 15-30 second game, but anything that makes crafting take longer than that is a rather large detriment.

As I said earlier, easily fixable. Allow players to choose a quantity of items to craft before doing so.
#15 Mar 05 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I definitely don't want to see an EQ2 style system, not only did it take forever but you could die while crafting. #1 I have quests to run, crafting is for doing between quests, I'm thinking the Hand gatherers will have something akin to Treasure Hunter. #2 surviving a dungeon full of ugly mobs to get my hands on some materials just to return to the workshop and have the forge explode and kill me is just **** annoying.

As for Farmville, I've not played it, I'm a fan of Crazy Planets myself, but it sounds like the plant growth thing is kinda like FF11's gardening. Am I wrong?

Also if there's going to be class shifting on the fly and you can craft in the field I don't wanna have to wait 5 minutes for my parties crafter to make some food for everyone with the drops we just got.
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#16 Mar 05 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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If items take too long to craft they are going to be very expensive. No one wants to spend a half an hour crafting something just to make 100 gil.

Besides that, you have to off-set the success-loss ration. If you lose the items you are crafting with on a failure + all the time spent on it, you're gonna darn sure wanna make up for it when you sell the item
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#17 Mar 05 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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I really hope crafting is more involved than just click, pray, break. But I also agree that I didn't like the EQ2 crafting. Maybe some compromise:

For example, crafting something like food, potions, arrows, etc. should only take 10-30 seconds and maybe just be like FFXI. But it would be nice if crafting things like Scorpion harness actually did take time and skill. I'm not talking about gathering that unique crafting ingredient. Heck, make a "scorpion harness" use the exact same ingredients as "generic bone harness" but make the difference an hour long crafting "game". That removes the exploitable crafting ingredients but still puts value on high-end items. Plus it prevents you from spamming SH, so the market won't be flooded.

So to summarize:
Consumables: 10-30 seconds, no/easy mini-game.
Generic gear: 1-5 minutes, easy mini-game.
Middle of the road gear: 5-10 minutes, medium mini-game.
Uber top-end gear: 30-60 minutes, hard mini-game.

I actually really like that idea. :)
#18 Mar 05 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quite a few games have tried the minigame route and aside from some approachable snags I think the whole mechanic gets pulled off pretty well. Even some Free-to-Plays have done a stellar job reinventing the formula. It's a concept well worn enough to be a safe business bet, and their intention to make crafting and gathering stand toe-to-toe with combat makes something like it almost necessary. I just can't imagine SE would fall back to the Everquest-era crafting in light of this.

While I'm pretty confident about the mechanic itself, I'm still concerned crafted content won't be particularly relevant. When crafting is a means to an ends (money), if 90% of the recipes are useless or become useless because of dungeon drops, we can give it a grumbling pass because that last 10% can still give you what you want. When crafting is it's own ends, this isn't so forgivable. Although perfectly relevant crafting has been done before, it hasn't been done very often. I really hope they can manage to make a crafting system that's not only fun, but worthwhile.



Edited, Mar 5th 2010 1:09pm by Zemzelette
#19 Mar 05 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Caia wrote:
...it caused the process to take upwards of 3 minutes PER item made. I wouldn't mind a quick 15-30 second game, but anything that makes crafting take longer than that is a rather large detriment.

As I said earlier, easily fixable. Allow players to choose a quantity of items to craft before doing so.



I was a max level Sage in EQ2, and I don't remember having to craft anything for as long as 3 minutes... Sure, when you're lower level and less skilled in the craft, the synth takes longer. But 3 minutes seems like a bit of an exaggeration.

The upside to taking (and it does) longer to craft an item in EQ2 than FFXI is that you have control of your craft with EQ2's style. The mini-game allows you to put some real skill and control into your synth, not just rely on chance/in game skill alone, like in FFXI.

If I were crafting an item with a Shining Cloth or V. Claw, I'd rather it take longer and have more control over it than have it be left to chance. EQ2's craft system was not that bad at all.

I never got into crafting in SWG, but I hear vets on the TOR forums rant and rave about how good it was.
#20 Mar 05 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
As I said earlier, easily fixable. Allow players to choose a quantity of items to craft before doing so


that'd be interesting, because then you'd be taking a gamble. if you mess up on a huge quantity of items you'd be ****** off. i suppose some people would take the safe route and craft several batches instead.
#21 Mar 05 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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I have heard good things about SWG also, I played Vanguard for a while and that had a really well through out crafting system, what with crafting being a class now there is no way that it could be as simple as FF11.

It's one of the first things I will be checking out... If I get into the beta.
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#22 Mar 05 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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Somethings I'd like to see would be personalization and additional effects from things you craft.

I would LOVE if you were a blacksmith and could change the color of things that you made or repaired. Imagine if you could craft a sword and make the blade any color you wanted? I know I would be extremely happy if I could use a green or blue blade. How about a red blade like Genesis from Crisis Core? Tired of that white armor? Bring it to a crafter to make it purple and add a dark element to it.

I'd also like to see some benefit to things you make. You should be able to add poison resist to armor or shields. You should be able to add elements to weapons. And when you get to a high crafting level you should be able to add full spells to armor and weapons. Regen to your helmet? Slow as an added effect on your lance? {Yes, please!}
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The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

#23 Mar 05 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Isn't the synergy thing kinda like a mini-game? I really have no idea since I don't play, but from what it sounded like it did involve more than just putting materials in a box and clicking ok.
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#24 Mar 07 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I hated the crafting in FFXI.... All around it was horrid. From the thousands of rumors about time of day, lunar cycle, facing a certain direction or w/e cause SE is too **** secretive about every **** aspect of the game. The fact that I had to look up most of the recipes online itself is just lame.... They need to combine some factors of a few games.

First of all, make some of he crafting similar to WOW. I like the fact that you hafta be a cetain lvl to be able to be a more skilled crafter. (This also should cut down on gil farmers) The other thing I liked about wow crafting was the fact that you learned the plans/formula/schematic and you could just do it anytime if you had the mats. I shouldn't need to have a scratch sheet of paper or internet favorite specifically tagged to look this crap up. Another thing is the the leveling in the game for the skill sucked major balls... As a matter of fact every kinda skill in that game was annoying to level up. Especially parrying and gaurd....

But I do agree, something to make crafting more fun would be great. Though I don't wanna spend 20min of jackin' off on a mini game just to make some juice. And btw... I played EQ2 for about 10min before wanting to gouge my eyes out with an ice pick... That game was friggen horrible... Maybe the crafting was good, but I never got near that. I was far to concerned with the blocky crappy graphics, the horrid game play, and the lame *** story to ever get passed the starting area lmao!
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#25 Mar 07 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Default
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Reckthor for the win ! lmfao.
#26 Mar 07 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, tell'em how you really feel! lol
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The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

#27 Mar 08 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I just hope I don't have to create a miniature corporate empire to make good efficient use of a craft, but that has plenty to do with other aspects of the game not necessarily related to crafting
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#28 Mar 09 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
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To add to this, I think it would be cool to be able to have up to two or three people help you with the crafting. Maybe better results, or assistance with the mini-games or whatever.
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#29 Mar 09 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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I was thinking the same thing. A party of crafters, so to speak.

I also agree with zems post on making crafting worthwhile. It's all too common for mmo's to overshadow crafted gear with uber end-game raiding items. Hopefully they will find a way to not let this happen.
#30 Mar 09 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Another thing is the the leveling in the game for the skill sucked major balls...


I'll agree there, spending 20 expensive materials to get.4 skill up was a bit of a nightmare, but I also don't wanna see something as pathetically easy as the WoW system, where every time I get a level I hit "Craft all" on something random wait 2 minutes and have max level again. I don't believe things should be a .1 by .1 every 10 attempts nightmare, but I also believe you shouldn't get a skill up every time you hit the button.
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#31 Mar 09 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
Another thing is the the leveling in the game for the skill sucked major balls...


I'll agree there, spending 20 expensive materials to get.4 skill up was a bit of a nightmare, but I also don't wanna see something as pathetically easy as the WoW system, where every time I get a level I hit "Craft all" on something random wait 2 minutes and have max level again. I don't believe things should be a .1 by .1 every 10 attempts nightmare, but I also believe you shouldn't get a skill up every time you hit the button.


From someone who was just over on the WoW boards crying about the meanie heads you experienced on your way to your zomfguber level 30 character, you're in no real position to be commenting on the crafting process. It starts off easy and builds to become fairly material intensive as you go. It's not on the same level as FFXI in terms of exorbitant cost for marginal returns, but it's also a far cry from what you described.
#32 Mar 09 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
From someone who was just over on the WoW boards crying about the meanie heads you experienced on your way to your zomfguber level 30 character, you're in no real position to be commenting on the crafting process.


That's interesting,
I haven't responded the the "I quit because of the D-bags post." that I made on their page in a few days. I'm surprised to see that an aforementioned "Meanie Head" has actually followed me from one forum to another to flame me here to. You guys really love defending that game don't you?

My opinion stands.
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#33 Mar 09 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
From someone who was just over on the WoW boards crying about the meanie heads you experienced on your way to your zomfguber level 30 character, you're in no real position to be commenting on the crafting process.


That's interesting,
I haven't responded the the "I quit because of the D-bags post." that I made on their page in a few days. I'm surprised to see that an aforementioned "Meanie Head" has actually followed me from one forum to another to flame me here to. You guys really love defending that game don't you?


Don't flatter yourself. I go back and forth between both boards, which hardly constitutes following you. I just think that if you're going to offer a critique that you should do so from a position of knowledge, not superficial understanding -> critical speculation.

It's like so many of the "reviews" written by people for products on the site where I buy my computer hardware. "Looks great. Comes with everything you need to connect it. I haven't installed it yet so I can't tell you how well it works, but I would recommend it to anyone."

Uhh...what?

Quote:
My opinion stands.


An opinion based on a superficial understanding is a crap opinion.

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 7:19am by AureliusSir
#34 Mar 09 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
I don't believe things should be a .1 by .1 every 10 attempts nightmare, but I also believe you shouldn't get a skill up every time you hit the button.

You must find slots machines to be an incredibly challenging and skillful game.
#35 Mar 09 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Don't flatter yourself. I go back and forth between both boards,


Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, I figured you were bouncing back and forth. I never meant you were here just for me. But that you took the effort to bring up my WoW post here as ammunition to pick my opinion apart, that's whats interesting.

And really, you're not doing anything to make me regret bailing on that one. So nice not being insulted daily, except for here of course.
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#36 Mar 09 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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please play nice and stay on topic.
#37 Mar 09 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
please play nice and stay on topic.


My apologies.
/bow
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#38 Mar 10 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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lol, I'm not defending WOW in the least bit, it's a horridly easy game that allows far too many children to run crazy in.... All I'm saying is we can take "examples" from other games and apply it to "The new Hotness" as I'm describing FFXIV lol. Trust me, the ONLY reason I'm playing WOW right now is cause for some reason SE put a block on Korea and I'm stuck here for another year because I'm stationed here. That and the pvp is actually pretty fun, that's pretty much the only redeeming quality of that fail azz game. I cannot WAIT to delete that game from my computer and eagerly upload my new new addiction.

Only reason I even mentioned it was becuase someone had mentioned EQ2, and where WOW is a game so dumbed down for kids that a 9yr old with down-syndrom could hit 80 with no problem whatsoever, I'm certainly not suggesting we make a copy with pretty graphics. You have to admit that the skill leveling system for FFXI was really really really **** annoying. For just about everything from crafting to weapon skills, to parry/gaurd skills. The .1 at a time crap has gotta go. It shouldn't take me 1-3 months to get parry to 275 from 210.... lol. It most CERTAINLY shouldn't take you millions of gil just to cap out your crafting skill the last 5 points.
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