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#1 Mar 11 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I haven't seen this info posted yet, but Eorzeapedia seems to have new info, that Famitsu hasn't posted. The source info is from Famitsu (strange they didn't post a lot of this) and 4Gamer.

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/03/11/detailed-class-info-from-famitsu-and-4gamer/#more-2576[/link]

Some comparisons FFXIs "Jobs" and FFXIVs "Classes":

Gladiators as well as Pugilists have access to a "Provoke" like ability called "Roaring Sword" and "Whistle" respectively.

Lancer seems to have a version of sneak attack called "Overrun".

Lancers also have "Collusion" which MIGHT be a version of trick attack, though it doesn't mention hate transfer or something similar.

Pugilist also have something similar to sneak attack called "Blind Side"

Pugilist's also have "steal".

Archer has "Stride" which sounds like "Flee"

It seems that FFXI's Thief is spread among multiple classes in FFXIV. Also, like FFXI's DNC, it seems all jobs MAY have the ability to use TP for things other than just Weapon Skills.

Edited to add Sources.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 1:48pm by VayMasters
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#3 Mar 11 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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One of the devs said there maybe an option to customise the blacksmith into a battle-blacksmith, where they could reduce the defense of mechanical enemies.
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#5 Mar 11 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Are these all the jobs?? Seems like the Pugilist is the new Thief im sad with this.. I guess ill be a Pugilist!


I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, there's no pure THF class, on the other(you have different fingers), by taking a few jobs, breaking them up and merging them into the others, it creates more diversity among the classes.
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#6 Mar 11 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Default
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Why would you expect a theif its not FF11.

The Gladiator is a weapons specilist if you are looking to use daggers/knifes.

Seems the Lancer has some kind of sneak attack though.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 8:39am by Diakar
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#7 Mar 11 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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That's like why would anyone be expecting an Archer, or a Knight, or a Mage. It's sort of a staple to the Fantasy MMORPG genre, and of Final Fantasy's.

The abilities and overall theme of the job were pretty cool.

Why wouldn't anyone expect a Thf like class?
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#9 Mar 11 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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So far it doesn't seem like there's a FFXI thf like class. Though aspects of it seems to be spread among the jobs. Like the tactical position of thf seems to be a part of Lancer.

Pugilist also seems to have something like sneak attack, as does lancer.

No class seems to have the theme of a thief though.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 9:38am by VayMasters
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#10 Mar 11 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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The last few final fantasy's (save XI) haven't had traditional classes. Should we also expect a ravager, medic, or sentinnel? Those are in ffxiii, and are basically black mage, white mage, and knight, but go by different names.

With XIV in particular, the developers have stated that they purposely aren't using the same names as the jobs from ffxi, so i wouldn't expect a thief. It seems multiple abilities from xi have been combined to make the new classes; thautamurge can sacrifice hp to heal others, lancers have a version of trick attack, pugilists steal. Oh and Archer's get a version of FEAR!

I for one like the idea, its going to create more diversity among the classes, which should equal more diversity at endgame, rather than ffxi where only a few of the jobs are utilized in endgame events.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 9:48am by MerylStryfe
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#11 Mar 11 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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MerylStryfe wrote:
Should we also expect a ravager, medic, or sentinnel? Those are in ffxiii, and are basically black mage, white mage, and knight, but go by different names.


I'm so glad the Black Mage isn't called Ravager because I would have chosen that class without putting any thought into it just for the kickass name.
#12 Mar 11 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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MerylStryfe wrote:
Should we also expect a ravager, medic, or sentinnel? Those are in ffxiii, and are basically black mage, white mage, and knight, but go by different names.


I'm so glad the Black Mage isn't called Ravager because I would have chosen that class without putting any thought into it just for the kickass name.


Ya, and all the "<-- {Mi'qote} {fun} {hole} {Ravager}" spam would be heartwarming :P
#13 Mar 11 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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In the future, please give some credit to the original source, which is 4gamer. It's ok to link to Eorzeapedia, just mention their source as well. Thanks!
#14 Mar 11 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Remember they've only released info on like 7 different classes, and 7 weapons.

They still haven't talked about ALOT of other weapons in past FF's.

Just don't think they wont add a dagger class, or a scythe class, or a bell class just yet :P
#15 Mar 11 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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While I would like about 2 more classes. I think all the jobs would be spread too thin if there are more than that. That was a big issue of mine with FFXI, too many jobs, too few roles. I'm just really hoping that each class has great depth. Maybe even have the ability to switch abilities and traits in and out within each class like how XI's does with Blue Mage.
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#16 Mar 11 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Zeyger wrote:
Remember they've only released info on like 7 different classes, and 7 weapons.

They still haven't talked about ALOT of other weapons in past FF's.

Just don't think they wont add a dagger class, or a scythe class, or a bell class just yet :P


Well there was a slight hint at Bard, other than that I can't think of anything else that was mentioned. I think a lot of the speculation has been based on the different weapons seen floating around in certain shots.
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#17 Mar 11 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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While I would like about 2 more classes. I think all the jobs would be spread too thin if there are more than that. That was a big issue of mine with FFXI, too many jobs, too few roles.


This is one thing that keeps me hanging on with hope rather than negativity. I actually think you make a really good point that FFXI may have had too many jobs, spreading the roles far too thin. It's a good angle to consider.

I think it will be nice to have a limited set of jobs for a change. Yes, it's true, DRG lovers are out of luck and there doesn't appear to be a WHM-specific class (that's what I was most sad about), and so on and so on.. but frankly, perhaps change is good. Just because it's different, and new, does not mean it is automatically bad. It's just a change.. and people fear change by nature ;) We also tend to fear the unknown. And right now, there is a plethora of "unknowns".

So I'm trying to remain positive on the grand scale, in that we're going to love this game for what it is and what it's going to be in and of itself... not for what it is "compared to Final Fantasy 11".
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#18 Mar 11 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Aside from that Bard hint, there's a couple other loose threads that remain unaccounted for.

There's the "mana battery" class mentioned in the recent interview.
Also whoever the heck uses the gunsmithing portion of Blacksmithing and the gunpowder made from the Miner's Salt Peter.

These can either be three more classes, two more classes, or just that Archers can use Guns and the mana battery is Thaumaturge (Siphon weaponskill + Initiation ability).
#19 Mar 11 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Well just look at it this way, there will be as many possible jobs as there are different weapons. Because weapon-in-hand dictates your 'job'.

lance/polearm - LANCER
sword - GLADIATOR
dagger
katana
Hand to hand - PUGILIST
great katana
great sword
bow and/or crossbow - ARCHER
gun
staff - CONJUROR
wand - THAUMATURGE
throwing weapons
blacksmith's hammer (maybe?)- BLACKSMITH
musical instrument
pick axe - MINER
needle
axe and/or hatchet
great axe - MARAUDER
scythe
shield
maybe some alchemist job with mixing items?

I imagine you can customize how you use each weapon as well by what skills you achieve.

Sword/shield = Gladiator: Basically seems to be a FFXI's Warrior

Gladiator -> (1) Paladin type job or (2) DD job of some sort. There's three jobs that use the same weapon basically.

There's a TON of room for many jobs here.
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#20 Mar 11 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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On the NA site it says that Gladiator has access to "Blades of all designs, short and long, single and double edged, straight and curved", so I'm doubting and hoping that there won't be one for each of them.

Also, on the NA site it says that Pugilists are "proficient with throwing weapons such as the chakram".

So there's a good possibility that some of the other classes will have similar things, such as (and it's a moderate stretch) Scythes being a variation of polearm so that Lancer can use it.

I'm also hoping that they don't have Great Katana AND Katana. Just one of the two.
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#21 Mar 11 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Goodness I hope they add a Dark Knight type class. But aside from that, I'm torn between Conjurer and Thaumaturge. They both seem really freaking awesome.
#22 Mar 11 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Goodness I hope they add a Dark Knight type class.


Already did. Lancer's abilities do a lot of things that DRK did in XI.
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#23 Mar 11 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think for FF14, we have to throw out everything we knew from FF11. And think of the classes of 14 to go something like this...

Disciples of (War, Magic, Hand, Land)
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A Class
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Then players customize their characters to fit their own play style. So say you want to be a Gladiator but want to deal DMG, you would choose to progress in that way instead of being a tank-type of character.

So in a way, even if these are all of the classes, players may be able to craft their own "jobs" out of specialization of certain skills from a class. Maybe, I dunno.

It's all speculation now. Maybe they'll come out with additional classes in the future?

But I think it's pretty cool that every class seems to have some utility unlike in FF11, only a few jobs held utility like Stun, Refresh, Dispel, Tanking and such.

We'll see ;]

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 7:01pm by Yll
#24 Mar 11 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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My concern is that they will by and large reduce the number of overall classes in an effort to better flesh out the existing classes. For example, get rid of Thief, Ninja, and Samurai style jobs altogether just to give their attributes to other jobs.

One of the big problems with XI was that there weren't enough really useful abilities for each class. There were few situations where you had to decide what abilities you were going to use in a battle-- you had so few at your disposal that they were either abilities you used in basically every battle (often as soon as they were ready), or they were rather worthless abilities. So condensing the jobs is certainly one way to solve that problem, albeit the worst way. Hopefully they'll add lots of job styles and weapon types and still manage to flesh them out.

I'm optimistic though, seeing the way they've implemented positioning, responsive timing, and area of effect into the gameplay. e.g., moves that work after a dodge, lances having longer range. And I'd be very surprised if they add no other disciples of war or magic (a little surprised if there weren't more at or shortly after launch).
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#25 Mar 11 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't wait to see how the varied weapon range comes into play.

Longer weapon reach tends to be an advantage A) when movement distance is a limited commodity (like in FF Tactics or Valkyria Chronicles), B) when it lets you gain the upper hand in or end a fight before your opponent can even reach you (like in real life combat), or C) when you can keep your opponent within your weapon's range while staying out of his (like when defending from on top of a wall).

I don't think A or B will play a very big role in FFXIV, so I suspect a lot of the game is going to be about physically keeping enemies away from longer-range attackers like the Lancer and Archer. We've gotten a few hints that it will be possible to block enemy movement with your characters' bodies or by magic shields. There's great potential for levels of strategy that would have been impossible in FFXI.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 6:33pm by Borkachev
#26 Mar 11 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

lance/polearm - LANCER
sword - GLADIATOR
dagger
katana
Hand to hand - PUGILIST
great katana
great sword
bow and/or crossbow - ARCHER
gun
staff - CONJUROR
wand - THAUMATURGE
throwing weapons
blacksmith's hammer (maybe?)- BLACKSMITH
musical instrument
pick axe - MINER
needle
axe and/or hatchet
great axe - MARAUDER
scythe
shield


It would seem to me that this list would be innaccurate or hastely made my thoughts would be( to fill in where you couldnt)

Great Katana/Great sword: gladiator
Gun: Archer
Needle: Depends but if i had to make a guess I would say maybe Lancer
Shield:Gladiator(seeing as it already shows glads using one on ffxiv page)
Throwing: Any number of classes could use this Glads Pugs Mara's for pulling purposes alone
Axes/hatchet: botanists or maybe even marauders for single hand useage

The only things I cant seem to find a fit for would be daggers and scythe's although perhaps scythe could even be linked to thaum's, and instruments if there even is gonna be any.

Just my thought tho personally


Edited, Mar 11th 2010 7:43pm by Ashisogi
#27 Mar 11 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Archer can't use guns... that would be an Archer no more.

It's not the same as in XI. Archer isn't a Ranger. The class is the weapon type. Only subweapons can be used by many classes (throwing).
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#28 Mar 11 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
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It would seem to me that this list would be innaccurate or hastely made my thoughts would be( to fill in where you couldnt)

Great Katana/Great sword: gladiator
Gun: Archer
Needle: Depends but if i had to make a guess I would say maybe Lancer
Shield:Gladiator(seeing as it already shows glads using one on ffxiv page)
Throwing: Any number of classes could use this Glads Pugs Mara's for pulling purposes alone
Axes/hatchet: botanists or maybe even marauders for single hand useage

The only things I cant seem to find a fit for would be daggers and scythe's although perhaps scythe could even be linked to thaum's, and instruments if there even is gonna be any.


I listed each weapon as a specialization. Of course GLD can use shields as a sub weapon, but maybe they can evolve into a job that specializes in shield use. It's obvious that your weapon dictates your job, I don't really see how one job can have several different weapons, it doesn't really make sense. SE said that as soon as you change your main weapon, your main job changes.

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Archer can't use guns... that would be an Archer no more.


Exactly.

Quote:
It's not the same as in XI. Archer isn't a Ranger. The class is the weapon type. Only subweapons can be used by many classes (throwing).


This.
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#29 Mar 11 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Gladiators are fighters of close-distance who manipulate various one-handed swords such as daggers, long swords, double-edged or single-edged swords.

Archers use bows, not crossbows, but other classes might

Those are from Famitsu and Dengeki. I was really looking forward to a THF type class. I even thought they would call it Bandit. And if Archers only use Bows and other classes might use Crossbows. I'm thinking they would make a crossbow/gunslinger type class or maybe two!

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#30 Mar 11 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm also hoping that they don't have Great Katana AND Katana. Just one of the two.


What? Why? More options > less.

Personally I want to use a katana of -some- kind, and I would really like to know what class I should use until it becomes available. It's kind of hard to guess at this point because there aren't any classes that use two-handed swords or weapons like them, so there doesn't seem to be any intent to simply swap a model out should they ever want to add them. Gladiators could use a one-handed katana, but that'd be really odd with a shield.

So far I'm thinking the gameplay mechanics look like they're off to a good start, but I'm not especially fond of the cosmetic options.

One thing I never liked was SE's implementation of claws and such. I actually really LIKE monks/pugilists in general, but the ridiculous weapons ruin it for me.
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#31 Mar 12 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Only Disciples of the Hand will be able to make arrows. However, in the future, by putting abilities from a Disciple of the Hand on an Archer, they could attain some limited crafting ability.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=21841

There... you can actually mix and match abilities from different classes..
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#32 Mar 12 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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What? Why? More options > less.

Personally I want to use a katana of -some- kind, and I would really like to know what class I should use until it becomes available. It's kind of hard to guess at this point because there aren't any classes that use two-handed swords or weapons like them, so there doesn't seem to be any intent to simply swap a model out should they ever want to add them. Gladiators could use a one-handed katana, but that'd be really odd with a shield.

So far I'm thinking the gameplay mechanics look like they're off to a good start, but I'm not especially fond of the cosmetic options.

One thing I never liked was SE's implementation of claws and such. I actually really LIKE monks/pugilists in general, but the ridiculous weapons ruin it for me.


A few reasons, for one, there's no such thing as a great Katana, IRL, that's the small one.

Second, more options isn't always greater than less. FFXI had an incredible balancing problems between all of the jobs that were DD's, then more balancing problems with melee DD's, then even more issues with the social fighting it caused.

They have plenty of weapons that they don't need to take a weapon, copy it, make it bigger, and call it something else.
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#33 Mar 12 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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A few reasons, for one, there's no such thing as a great Katana, IRL, that's the small one.


I think most people are fully aware of that. I don't think the fact that "great katana" isn't the most accurate term even remotely resembles a good reason to exclude them.

Quote:
Second, more options isn't always greater than less. FFXI had an incredible balancing problems between all of the jobs that were DD's, then more balancing problems with melee DD's, then even more issues with the social fighting it caused.


In an MMO, options can make or break the game. There are a couple of jobs that aren't in FFXI that could make me start playing it again. Considering players want to make a character that will stand out as their own, or at least make one that they like, it's critical to include options that players are expecting. You can be sure that players will be expecting more weapons than were in FFXI, not less. SE would be fools not to.

FFXI's balancing problems had little to do with there being too many jobs. SE was clearly just not responsive enough when it came to balance. They also didn't differentiate roles between melee DDs hardly at all; for the most part all melee DDs did was damage to the mob. That makes the question of figuring out which ones do their job best fairly easy.

At the very least, introducing katanas as a cosmetic option would do nothing to the game balance.

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They have plenty of weapons that they don't need to take a weapon, copy it, make it bigger, and call it something else.


I disagree. I was actually thinking that if that's all the weapons they offer, maybe I shouldn't even play the game. If I wasn't 90% sure that there would be katanas at some point, I might not even bother.

Ideally katanas will come with their own class/role. But it seems like there will be ample customization to help offset balance issues either way.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Mar 12 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I am totally for a Katana class though. I love Samurais, and if only they had a strong wyvern in FFXI, it would easily be at the top of my list (I love dragons also).

There's not much reason to have a dozen jobs that serve identical roles.

There was a question asked on a FFXIV, Dengeki interview "Why does Pugilist have steal?", and their response was "they wanted each class to have several different avenues to grow". They could easily give each class similar weapons to use like Lancer (I wouldn't myself, but it can happen) could use Scythes.

There's also under "Archer" in the Dengeki interview the devs say that "n the future, by putting abilities from a Disciple of the Hand on an Archer, they could attain some limited crafting ability". This could allow players to craft their desired class.
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#35 Mar 12 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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There's not much reason to have a dozen jobs that serve identical roles.


I completely agree, but that was a design flaw, not a concept flaw. 20 jobs could have all had unique roles, but the developers didn't design them that way. For example, Samurai was supposed to be the "Skillchain Master," but it wasn't really. Samurai was just another melee damage dealer that happened to get TP faster than others. Eventually they got a couple more abilities to manipulate TP, but they're still nothing resembling a skillchain master.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Mar 12 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I completely agree, but that was a design flaw, not a concept flaw. 20 jobs could have all had unique roles, but the developers didn't design them that way. For example, Samurai was supposed to be the "Skillchain Master," but it wasn't really. Samurai was just another melee damage dealer that happened to get TP faster than others. Eventually they got a couple more abilities to manipulate TP, but they're still nothing resembling a skillchain master.


That's true, but "Skillchain Master" isn't a role, it's a way of full filling the a DD role. How many different roles are there.

Melee DD (Drk)
Range DD (Rng)
Tank (Pld)
Magic DD (Blm)
Healer (Whm)
Support (Brd)
Controller (Thf)

I don't consider Hybrid a role, and it seems that every class in FFXIV is Hybridized. There might, might not be a controller of the known classes yet, though Lancer might have some controlling abilities, as well as Archer, and one or both of the mages.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 1:38pm by VayMasters
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#37 Mar 12 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I completely agree, but that was a design flaw, not a concept flaw. 20 jobs could have all had unique roles, but the developers didn't design them that way. For example, Samurai was supposed to be the "Skillchain Master," but it wasn't really. Samurai was just another melee damage dealer that happened to get TP faster than others. Eventually they got a couple more abilities to manipulate TP, but they're still nothing resembling a skillchain master.


"Unique" in concept, not unique in practice. "Skillchain master" basically means "dealing damage". There's nothing unique about that. Only thing different is how you deal the damage, and XI gave lot of options for that in the way of different weapon types already.. but that alone is not enough to justify so many jobs. There was no other point to it than fanservice.

I don't think you can design 20 jobs with unique roles. Backline/front line Healer, support, nuker, melee DD, ranged DD, tank. More jobs than that and they'll be just filler and serve no real purpose.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 9:41pm by Hyanmen
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#38 Mar 12 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I could see different nations having different classes to full fill all the roles. Though so far there's no indication of that in FFXIV.
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#39 Mar 12 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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I don't think you can design 20 jobs with unique roles. Backline/front line Healer, support, nuker, melee DD, ranged DD, tank. More jobs than that and they'll be just filler and serve no real purpose.

No, but as long as they're balanced and each has their own niche then you can have multiple Damage Dealers and tanks and such. In WoW, every class can deal damage. Some better than others, but those worse off in dps have other abilities they bring to the table. And this allows for a wide range of playstyles. Would be pretty boring if there was only 1 damage class or 1 tank class and only 1 way to play them. FFXI's 20 jobs was a bit overkill, but part of the problem there was lack of abilities and defining qualities that made all DDers useful. And they seem slow on the balance. Dragoon was bad for sooo long before they finally addressed it.
#40 Mar 12 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Nonononono... big misconceptions here.

First of all, if Samurai were really skillchain masters, as in helping the group to facilitate more damage (which early in the game, they were looked at that way), then they would be a damage/support role. As it stands though, they don't significantly contribute to the amount of damage that OTHER party members do, so they are purely a melee DD. That also depends on what Skillchains DO. If Skillchains had other effects, like restoring HP or inflicting status (or if SAM could cause those effects), then Samurai wouldn't be pigeonholed into a purely damage dealing role.

Secondly, there can be as many roles as the gameplay invents. Claiming otherwise is like saying that all chess pieces are the same because they all serve the same role despite achieving it in different ways. Basically if you follow that argument to its natural end, there aren't six or so roles, but only two: offense and defense. Well yeah, that's kind of how combat works, so all fighting games are somewhat limited to those very generic roles.

For example, the healer and tank roles exist as a function of HP, and HP being something that can be lost and regained incrementally. The refresh role exists as a function of MP. These are not essential characteristics-- a game actually doesn't HAVE to have MP, for example, nor does it have to have HP that can be recovered. Same for TP. And there's no limit. There could be AP, BP, CP, DP, EP, FP, GP, etc., and a role for every one of those fluid or nonfluid stats. These may all be support roles in that they support offense or defense, but what's the problem with that? The point of having jobs and such isn't to cover the roles. If it were you could have as few as one or two jobs.

It's all about manipulating the channels of victory, which is what gameplay IS. And the more channels to victory you create and the more complex ways you can manipulate them, the deeper the gameplay becomes. Every gameplay element and mechanic exists as one that can be manipulated into something that an entire or partial role can center around. Is positioning a gameplay element? Then you can have a role that specializes in improving the party's position. Timing? Aim? Just working with what's in FFXI I could have easily designed twice as many roles as they currently have while making the ones that already exist more distinct. Barring PS2 limitations, of course :p

Besides mechanical roles there are also thematic roles. A Samurai and a Dark Knight have essentially the same role, but they are distinct in style. Not only visually, but in the way they fulfill their role, and that's important to players too.
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#41 Mar 12 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Default
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Offensive and Defensive are not roles.

As by the Marriam-Webster dictionary
Role
1 a (1) : a character assigned or assumed <had to take on the role of both father and mother> (2) : a socially expected behavior pattern usually determined by an individual's status in a particular society b : a part played by an actor or singer
2 : a function or part performed especially in a particular operation or process <played a major role in the negotiations>

Don't be oppositional, you know what we mean.

And yeah, they could have a class that just attacks, and one that just defends, and one that just heals Hp, and one that just heals mp, and one that just sits there, but they don't(although technically, that's what we drgs did for a few years).

Having too many classes that fill the same role is just fluff. No reasons other than creating the illusion of diversity.

Obviously people don't mind having a few classes that do the same role in a different way, but to have RNG, DRG, DRK, SAM, WAR, BLM, BLU, MNK is incredibly stupid since then you end up with a bunch of shallow classes.
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#42 Mar 12 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Offensive and Defensive are not roles.


Offender and Defender. There. Now they're roles. And a game could easily consist of only those roles.

As I said, thematic roles are important, but you can also create diversity in mechanical roles. I'm not being arbitrarily oppositional here. I think you're missing something that's important to the development of roles in game design, and that is that roles exist as a function of the game rules and mechanics, which can be altered fairly easily.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Mar 12 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
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Ok then, TRADITIONAL MMO ROLES. No game EVER has just an offender and defender, because of the overarching simplicity.

Simplicity, just as overcomplexity, is a bad thing for the average player. If it wasn't, all commands would have to be typed out in msdos command fashion.

After rereading over this, there's not really a goal to this argument based on where it is now.
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#44 Mar 12 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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And don't argue themantics, because if you create a class just to fill a specific theme, then it's open to have 100 more classes, and thus, becoming shallow and insignificant.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 2:55pm by VayMasters
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#45 Mar 12 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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but to have RNG, DRG, DRK, SAM, WAR, BLM, BLU, MNK is incredibly stupid since then you end up with a bunch of shallow classes

Maybe, maybe not. They're as shallow as SE wants to make them. In FFXI they were pretty shallow, you didn't get enough abilities. In WoW, each DPS play pretty differently. Yes there is overlap and similarities, but, say, a cat druid plays much differently than a paladin. Druids have a lot of abilities and playing it well is quite complex. Paladin only has a few useful abilities and it's easier to play. That also alows for easier to play classes for those not so great at the game, and more complex ones for those that like a challenge.
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#46 Mar 12 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Goodness I hope they add a Dark Knight type class.


Already did. Lancer's abilities do a lot of things that DRK did in XI.
It looked like they had something similar to soul eater. But I wouldn't call that one trait enough to make the job a DRK. In the other interview, they said that the Scythe would definitely make its way into the game, though. So there is still hope. Smiley: grin
#47 Mar 13 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok then, TRADITIONAL MMO ROLES. No game EVER has just an offender and defender, because of the overarching simplicity.


There have in fact been many games with only 2-4 roles. Why would two roles cause "overarching simplicity?" Would ONE role do that? Of course not. The number of roles has no absolute bearing on simplicity, because there are many many mechanical elements besides role constructs in nearly any game short of rock, paper, scissors.

Quote:
Simplicity, just as overcomplexity, is a bad thing for the average player. If it wasn't, all commands would have to be typed out in msdos command fashion.


That's an oversimplification of the psychology behind games. For every player in every game there is an optimal level of challenge, and it is continuously moving. What is complex to many people is simple to me. The aim should not be to just land in the general region of optimal difficulty, but to allow for a degree of autonomy in seeking the level of complexity that suits the players.

Quote:
And don't argue themantics, because if you create a class just to fill a specific theme, then it's open to have 100 more classes, and thus, becoming shallow and insignificant.


I'm really not sure what your point is here. My point is though jobs like SAM and DRK are very similar mechanically, the drastic thematic differences in conjunction with relatively shallow mechanical differences makes them both more than welcome to the playerbase. Ideally their mechanical differences might be a bit more pronounced, yes, but it's preferable to have a white knight and a black knight that do the exact same thing than to force everyone to be the same one.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Mar 13 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Default
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I'm really not sure what your point is here. My point is though jobs like SAM and DRK are very similar mechanically, the drastic thematic differences in conjunction with relatively shallow mechanical differences makes them both more than welcome to the playerbase. Ideally their mechanical differences might be a bit more pronounced, yes, but it's preferable to have a white knight and a black knight that do the exact same thing than to force everyone to be the same one.


Kinda ironic that someone who thinks so highly of himself managed to have that play on words go over his head.

This argument bores me now, to many opinions and situations. This is not the topic your looking for, move along.
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#49 Mar 13 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I read themantics as a typo. So sorry that your wit eluded me. Now if only you would employ it to an actual rebuttal or concession.

My advice is that if you don't want to talk to me, stop responding to me.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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