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So ... Who is playing FFXIII right now?Follow

#102 Mar 22 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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To all the people who say this is easy, maybe your skills as a gamer got better since FFVI, FFVII, etc.?

I'm having a tough time with just regular battles and I'm stuck on Vanille's Eidolon. I personally think this is one of the hardest FF's to play.

For people who are saying this is linear, the point where I am at, the game has opened up a lot. Right now, I can go do side quests and other stuff if I wish and save the rest of the main story for later.

Yes, it's linear up to that point, but I liked having to just worry about going forward so I could focus on getting better at the combat system and understanding the story.

I think some people need to stop expecting another *insert favorite FF title here* and just accept it for what it is. (But it's okay to have negative opinions about it, just saying.)



Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:08am by ShinoHaven
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#103 Mar 22 2010 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm stuck on Vanille's Eidolon


I failed a lot on this one till I approached it a different way.

I beat it easily after I used saboteur+sentinel and switching to medic+sentinel when I needed a heal.

I'm sad now... my PS3 blu-ray drive broke on chapter 13. I hate consoles, dammit I want a PC port.
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#104 Mar 22 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I recon its a pritty good game so far, atm on chapter 7 i think. My only negitive thing thuss far is the lack of freedom. I seem to be on cruse controll, which is ok but hopefully i get a few more choices along the way soon. The other thing is a dont really understand the whole weapon upgrqde thing. i still have most of my starting weapons, just upgraded. Do ifind better ones soon, or just upgrade the ones i have more?

anyone have a good weapons upgrade faq?
#105 Mar 22 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm on Chapter 10 now and still LOVING the game.

It's not easy. There are plenty of puzzling fights, especially if you're playing it without a FAQ or guide like I'm trying to do.

Buffs and Debuffs are a very powerful part of the game, yet your team will take care of them for you as long as you paradigm shift into a set up that lets them have time to do it. People who are complaining about the lack of micromanagement ... I don't understand. Is it fun choosing "shell" from a menu? Is it fun choose "barfire" from a menu? Well, not to me. I'd rather paradigm shift into a X/Synergist/Sabateur setup and keep everyone alive while my team casts the right buffs and debuffs, watching to see when they are all set and ready to go while also watching health bars and enemies getting ready to cast nasty spells.

Having played many micro-management FF games, which were all great fun in their own way, it's refreshing to me to be able to watch the progression of the fight in general, rather than spend all my time scrolling through menus looking for "barwater" or "dispel"

As for open-ended stories - FF has NEVER featured much in terms of open-ended story telling. There is very little player choice in any FF game that I can think of. There are many other games where the player's action shapes the open-ended world, and those games are great. But FF has always been about following a story. So far in FFXIII I'm enjoying the story very much. If I wanted open-ended, I'd play Oblivion or Fallout3 or something along those lines.

I have yet to even hit the open-ended part of FFXIII but I'm enjoying the battle system as much as I enjoyed VII, and that is saying a lot. (I was a VII addict back in the day, and one of the few people I know of who killed emerald and ruby weapon, and managed to make a third KOTR)

One other thing I'm seeing in this thread that baffles me is all of the XB360 hate. I'm not a console guy... I'm a PC guy. Nevertheless I own both 360 and PS3. I loaned the PS3 out semi-permanently, so nowadays I play on a 360. The two products are so ubiquitous in everything except game catalog that I just don't see how people can call one system or the other a "piece of garbage" or whatever. They both play games in hi-def at 1080p. They both use different GPUs, with the PS3 being the more powerful processor (and the more expensive console) and yet end up showing the same output. They both allow you to download and play content from the Internet, stream video from your PC, etc. I just don't see how anyone would get into a Mac vs PC style debate over two products that are really so ubiquitous.

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#106 Mar 22 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Well haven't got as far into the game as I would have liked to by now, but i have been sick. (not up for anything lol)

My previous post was a little harsh. Still not my favorite FF but its growing on me.

The game has opened up and now I find myself in an area where I can find really easy encounters or mobs that can kill me just by looking in my direction lol.

This is where the Hardcore FF player in my will have issues lol. I wont want to leave this area and follow the story any further till i can kill everything in this area.

Thats great!

(so what do the rest of my party do when my main 3 are fighting?)

Still hate the fact if the party leader dies its all over, but whatcha gonna do.
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#107 Mar 22 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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Jordster wrote:
One other thing I'm seeing in this thread that baffles me is all of the XB360 hate. I'm not a console guy... I'm a PC guy. Nevertheless I own both 360 and PS3. I loaned the PS3 out semi-permanently, so nowadays I play on a 360. The two products are so ubiquitous in everything except game catalog that I just don't see how people can call one system or the other a "piece of garbage" or whatever. They both play games in hi-def at 1080p. They both use different GPUs, with the PS3 being the more powerful processor (and the more expensive console) and yet end up showing the same output. They both allow you to download and play content from the Internet, stream video from your PC, etc. I just don't see how anyone would get into a Mac vs PC style debate over two products that are really so ubiquitous.


There have always been console wars. Just the ones I am familiar with include:

Commodore Amiga Vs Atari
ColecoVision Vs Atari
NES Vs Sega (can't think of what the first one was called)
SNES vs Sega Genesis
SNES Vs Sega CD Vs Turbografix16
N64 Vs Sega Saturn Vs PS1
N64 Vs Sega Dream Cast Vs PS2
GameCube Vs Xbox Vs Ps2
360 Vs PS2
360 Vs PS3
I'm sure I've missed some.

(not going to include the Wii because it's still a different sort of animal)
#108 Mar 23 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Default
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Heading into Chapter 13 myself right now with all Jobs maxed, let's see how I do. I'm at almost 60 Hours, this includes grinding CP, and light farming for Spoils.

Once I finish I'm sure I'll need help with this Weapon Upgrade system that I'm still stuck on.

Wish me luck guys! I'll leave a non-spoiler comment after I beat it later on tonight.
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#109 Mar 23 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
NES Vs Sega (can't think of what the first one was called)
Sega Master System. Yes, it was a very creative name.

Also: Of course I know that, I'm an alpha geek.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 10:27pm by lolgaxe
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#110 Mar 23 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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If you want to get 5 gold stars on most fights you don't have time to sit and think about what spells you should use, as long as you use libra auto battle will generally select the best attacks.

My Rav Lightning, who has a str score more than double her mag score, using thunder instead of sparkstrike on a fully figured out mob that has no physical resistances.. says differently.

Autobattle is for when you don't feel like looking at the screen. In any battle where I need to put forth effort to get 5 stars, I have to pick my moves.

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Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 10:44pm by Deadgye
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#111 Mar 23 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
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FF13 is probably the worst FF I've ever played. I'd rather play Defenders of Oasis for Game Gear.

There's linear then there's LINEAR. We know there's no actual choice in how the story will play out but... I liked going to towns, resting in tents, walking on the world map. It broke things up; it was an experience.

This... I don't even know what to call it. 25 hours of fighting through a tunnel and some movies. Ah, Gran Pulse now I'm in a field fighting overly powered monsters! Great!

Plus the characters are so cliche and campy. It was almost like the movie Transmorphers that I saw. (No really that is a movie.) "Yeah they're Japanese! It's a JRPG." you say! Yeah, well the dialog in FF12 wasn't this bad. The only thing I know from this game is that it takes a LONG time to make CGI movies.

Despite all that I really can't wait for FF14. Go figure.

#112 Mar 23 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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While it certainly isn't the best game of the franchise, it certainly isn't the worst. That honor is held by both Final Fantasy 7 and 8. Even then, 10, 10-2 and 12 are worse as well. 1 was, understandably, generic to a fault. 2's "spend an hour attacking yourself and be invincible" system was beyond stupid. 11 started pretty good, but Square's been squatting all over that for the last few years. 6's story was good, but characters were interchangeable. 5's were just indistinguishable between each other.

...

How the **** does this franchise have a loyal freakin' following?
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#113 Mar 23 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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How the **** does this franchise have a loyal freakin' following?


I guess it's a good thing that a handful of people who can convey their distaste for something intelligibly manages not to detract from the enjoyment of the many thousands of people who love it.

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#114 Mar 24 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
FF13 is probably the worst FF I've ever played. I'd rather play Defenders of Oasis for Game Gear.

There's linear then there's LINEAR. We know there's no actual choice in how the story will play out but... I liked going to towns, resting in tents, walking on the world map. It broke things up; it was an experience.

This... I don't even know what to call it. 25 hours of fighting through a tunnel and some movies. Ah, Gran Pulse now I'm in a field fighting overly powered monsters! Great!

Plus the characters are so cliche and campy. It was almost like the movie Transmorphers that I saw. (No really that is a movie.) "Yeah they're Japanese! It's a JRPG." you say! Yeah, well the dialog in FF12 wasn't this bad. The only thing I know from this game is that it takes a LONG time to make CGI movies.

Despite all that I really can't wait for FF14. Go figure.



What is so good about walking around towns and using LOLtents to rest up?

Just about every FF game has sent you from point to point in a linear way. 13 just makes sure you don't get lost, which keeps the pacing of the story going.

I try not to set expectations for FF games, because each one is so different. I take each game for what it is, and I love FF13 for exactly what it is - a good story that keeps moving, and a combat system that is a lot of fun to try to master (I.e. 5*)

I am most of the way through chapter 10 (I think... I killed the mini-boss already) and I'm really excited to finally experience chapter 11. Sadly I'm pretty busy IRL.

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#115 Mar 24 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Default
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Seems as though as Fans we ask for a lot in upcoming Final Fantasy Titles. Yet, when it is given to us, we don't like it so much anymore, lol.

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#116 Mar 24 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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13 just makes sure you don't get lost, which keeps the pacing of the story going.


But that's "catering to casual"! The "challenge" of not knowing where the **** to go next is lost! Just like in XI when you took up a quest and you weren't told where to go next, that's challenge at it's best! SE sucks for taking that away from XIII!

Final Fantasy fans are the worst.

Okay, maybe the console fans are the worst. But FF fans are a good second.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 4:51pm by Hyanmen
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#117 Mar 24 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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How the **** does this franchise have a loyal freakin' following?
I guess it's a good thing that a handful of people who can convey their distaste for something intelligibly manages not to detract from the enjoyment of the many thousands of people who love it.
My point is that Final Fantasy isn't some epic franchise. Their games are flawed; Some immensely so. But, with the exclusion of 7 and 8, they're relatively enjoyable.

There are better games, though. ****, Square has some games in their library that blow Final Fantasy out of the water. Xenogears and Chrono Trigger come to mind, that should see more light of day than Final Fantasy.
Jordster wrote:
What is so good about walking around towns
When you're out to save the world, its nice to know there are people in it to save. Its a part of immersion, which is a VERY important aspect of role playing games. XIII falls short there; Outside Dajh, Serah, and Emogits Hope's Dad, I can't see why these people want to bother saving their world, outside of "They told us we shouldn't!"

The entire experience is sterile.
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#118 Mar 24 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I just hit the "Overworld" which, to be honest, scares the crap out of me.

Anyway. I was bored as first, but as the Crystairum opened up, the battle system gave me a little more freedom, the plot ramped up, I got into it. I stuck it out.

Is this the second-coming of JRPGs? Not yet, but its nice to see a JRPG that doesn't totally suck in this generation of consoles (See: Star Ocean, Last Remnant, ...)

In terms of FF games? I'm not sure. Let me finish the game, see how long it lasts me and if anything in the game sticks with me afterward. . The thing I love most about FF games is the side-quests, and building up to do the optional monsters. I have never finished the story in Ff12 because I have not killed Yiazmat, despite the fact that Ashe can solo the final boss XD. FF6, despite not being 140 hours long (like FF12 has been for me), is my favorite, however.

FF12 was harder, but FF13 is the hardest FF I've played in a while. I know in FFX I didn't get a game over until the fight against Evrae on the airship. In FF13? The first Eidolon battle (which those fights end up being some of the best this game has to offer), and I've hit many more game overs since.

Anyway. its a good game, and anyone who tells you it isn't didn't play more than 20 minutes of it. Its just got a bit of a pacing problem..
#119 Mar 24 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
That honor is held by both Final Fantasy 7 and 8.

What didn't you like about 7? I'm just curious. I haven't played a lot of the FF games. Way, way back when I played FF1 then a couple years ago I played some of FF5 on a S/NES emulator. Then I got FF7 for my PS3 and gave it a go and thought it was pretty neat. Interesting, though weird, story.
#120 Mar 24 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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plutoknight wrote:

Anyway. its a good game, and anyone who tells you it isn't didn't play more than five hours of it. Its just got a bit of a pacing problem..


ftfy.
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#121 Mar 24 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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MrTalos wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
That honor is held by both Final Fantasy 7 and 8.

What didn't you like about 7? I'm just curious. I haven't played a lot of the FF games. Way, way back when I played FF1 then a couple years ago I played some of FF5 on a S/NES emulator. Then I got FF7 for my PS3 and gave it a go and thought it was pretty neat. Interesting, though weird, story.


I think he meant 7 is his favorite.

FFVII is generally considered the best FF game of all time. It was definitely the most revolutionary, being the first FF game in 3d, and the best 3d game period for it's time.

It's also the famous tale from which Xxxsephirothxxx and Klowdd got their names (you know, the horrible derivative names of Cloud, the spikey blonde hero, and Sephiroth, the mysterious **** archrival.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 4:19pm by Jordster
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#122 Mar 24 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Jordster wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
That honor is held by both Final Fantasy 7 and 8.

What didn't you like about 7? I'm just curious. I haven't played a lot of the FF games. Way, way back when I played FF1 then a couple years ago I played some of FF5 on a S/NES emulator. Then I got FF7 for my PS3 and gave it a go and thought it was pretty neat. Interesting, though weird, story.


I think he meant 7 is his favorite.

FFVII is generally considered the best FF game of all time. It was definitely the most revolutionary, being the first FF game in 3d, and the best 3d game period for it's time.

It's also the famous tale from which Xxxsephirothxxx and Klowdd got their names (you know, the horrible derivative names of Cloud, the spikey blonde hero, and Sephiroth, the mysterious **** archrival.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 4:19pm by Jordster


I really hope you're being sarcastic.

My personal favorites were 4, 6, and 12. I'm enjoying 13 somewhat, but the game feels really linear to me, and I've never been one for linear gameplay. Also, I've found out the hard way that not utilizing the Paradigm Shift system to the best possible results will break you. Doing it right vs doing it wrong can make the difference between a 1 minute fight or a 4 minute one. I had a **** of a time in Chapter 4 until I started using Saboteur instead of just changing between Rav/Rav/Rav and Rav/Rav/Med.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 4:24pm by Mikhalia
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#123 Mar 24 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Jordster wrote:
I think he meant 7 is his favorite.
HEEEEEEEEEELL no. I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion.

For one, the game wasn't 3D, just the characters were polygonal. You know, since all the backgrounds were 2d. Star Fox was 3D, and that was on the SNES, so no, it wasn't some revolutionary move.

Sephiroth is, alone, reason enough to hate the game. A boring ineffectual "villain" that didn't really accomplish anything other than sneaking up on a FLOWER GIRL and killing her, and even then she still got the last laugh when it turns out his killing her didn't actually accomplish anything. And yet, he's become the poster child of every fanboy imaginable to the point that he's in a bunch of other games and movies. I guess the black trench coat, long silver hair, and the Overcompensation Katana™ were more awesome than I realize; I just don't see it.

The heroines of the story? Please, they might as well not have been there. Tifa was too stupid to tell the amnesiac that his memories were incorrect? WHY? Because it would hurt his feelings? All Aeris was good for was being a sheathe. Maybe if she stuck around a little longer so there was some Cloud x Zack x Aeris conflict she would have been interesting, but beyond being an inexplicable love interest, she was unremarkable. "OMG UR SOLDIER TOO? I LUVS U!" Yuffie was probably the only one that had a personality, and she was just a secret character at best, and lolibait at worst.

The supporting crew? Beyond Cid, who gave a flying @#%^ about them? He had a dream he wanted to accomplish. Barret was just a stereotypical, borderline racist, angry black guy. Vincent? Emogit bait. "Boo hoo, Hojo stole my girlfriend. I'm a vampire now!" Red XIII? Am I the only one that seems to remember that his introduction involved Hojo's experiment to have him breed with Aeris?

Cait Sith ... yeah, we'll just leave that the **** alone.

And finally, the main character. Cloud. A silent, whiny, so full of crap, and self-doubt twit that he would make any emo person on earth sound like an upbeat, sunshine loving, hippy. When he got two, yes, TWO, women totally wanting to bone them he treats them like utter crap, because he's got a bigger goal; To @#%^ up his arch-nemesis (once best friend forever) Sephiroth. Another closet Erectile Dysfunctioned individual, but I guess Cloud is concerned with his girth while Sephiroth is length. Seriously. Cid, who uses a SPEAR seems less like he's overcompensating than these two twits.

The story was roughly that the best soldier in the global army finds out his mommy is an alien and he goes insane and wants to rule the world. For mommy. Oh wait, first it starts off with the grand "CAPITALISM SUCKS!" story, where Cloud, Mr. T, and crew must make like Green Peace and take out a business! Yeah, that's really catchy. I heard the mission before that was they were boycotting KFC along PETA. Granted, it wasn't the worst story ever imagined, but I don't know why people are so fond of it. Eliminate all the RPG cliches ("We must save the world!" mainly), and that's the unique element to the story. An angry Oedipus Complex.

The ending? Ahahaha ... Red XIII, who was the last of his kind, runs up to Ruin Midgar with his three kids. Whiskey tango foxtrot, TOC. The ending is meant to tie up loose ends, not make you want to throw a TV out a window.

If that isn't enough to dislike it, the fanbase and unrealistic hype is certainly more than enough to launch it into infamy. "Best FF of all time?" Please, 4 and 6's stories, while still hookey, were still infinitely better and at least Cecil x Rosa and Locke x Celes were memorable and interesting. Sephiroth x Mommy sure as **** wasn't.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:07pm by lolgaxe
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#124 Mar 24 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Just completed the last chapter, and I'd have to say, it was an overall great game. Yea, I still have to do hunts, upgrades, etc. now..but man, that last Chapter made it all worth while.


Keep playing, it's well worth it.

Square Enix, Thank You for giving us a set of new Characters to build a relationship with and join on a Journey, yet again, to make the impossible possible.

Now, give me XIV.
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#125 Mar 24 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
So much win, far more eloquently than I could have put it myself


I totally non-*** love you right now. I'm seriously going to copypasta that into a notepad file and keep it onhand for the next time I need it, which is once every 2-3 weeks.

You should go post it on GameFAQs, where the contest board is probably going ******* about Link barely beating out Cloud in the latest character battle popularity contest.
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#126 Mar 24 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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No I wasn't kidding ... 7 was the sh*t. I was 16 back then, but I liked the story. I like the materia. I got tired of the endlessly long animations, especially when Mimic'ing Knights of the Round to beat Emerald Weapon, but nevertheless...

Wikipedia sums it up quite well:

Wikipedia wrote:
The game received near universal acclaim from critics. GameSpot commented that "never before have technology, playability, and narrative combined as well as in Final Fantasy VII", expressing particular favor toward the game's graphics, audio, and story.[4] IGN's Jay Boor insisted the game's graphics were "light years beyond anything ever seen on the PlayStation", and regarded its battle system as its strongest point.[7] RPGamer praised the game's soundtrack both in variety and sheer volume, stating that "Uematsu has done his work exceptionally well" and "is perhaps at his best here".[79] In January 2005, it was selected by Electronic Gaming Monthly as sixth on their list of "the 10 most important games ... that helped redefine the industry since ... 1989". Citing its "beautiful cut-scenes and a deep, introspective narrative", they claimed that "Square’s game was ... the first RPG to surpass, instead of copy, movie-like storytelling." In late 2007, Dengeki PlayStation named Final Fantasy VII as the "best story", "best RPG", and "best overall game" in their retrospective awards feature about the original PlayStation.[80] GamePro named it the fourteenth most important and most innovative video game of all-time,[81][82] as well as the best RPG title of all time.[83]

Final Fantasy VII has received negative criticism as well. GameSpy rated it seventh on their "25 Most Overrated Games" list in September 2003.[84] Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine (OPM) and GameSpot questioned the game's highly linear progression.[4][77] OPM considered the game's translation "a bit muddy" and felt the summon animations were "tedious".[77] RPGamer said "[the game] is far from perfect", citing its translation as "packed with typos and other errors which further obscure what is already a very confusing plot".[85] GamePro also considered the Japanese-to-English translation a significant weakness in the game,[50] and IGN regarded the option to use only three characters at a time as "the game's only shortcoming".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII#Critical_response

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:33pm by Jordster
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#127 Mar 24 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree a good bit with lolgaxe, although I certainly wouldn't call it the worst FF game of them all (I reserve that honor for 8 or 10), but man is 7 so ******* overpraised its beyond retarded. Everything you noted about the story is exactly right; the mostly bland characters, and especially the overcompensation weaponry.

I laugh when I hear 7 is the "greatest" final fantasy and most times the same people have never played anything before hand and a good few I know of haven't even played RPG's before, they just picked it up because of excellent graphics and CGI. Personally my faves of the series is 6,9, and 12 (which I know gets a lot of flack mostly because of the battle system) Great game? Absolutely, greatest FF game? Meeehhh...
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#128 Mar 24 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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My point is that Final Fantasy isn't some epic franchise. Their games are flawed; Some immensely so. But, with the exclusion of 7 and 8, they're relatively enjoyable.

There are better games, though. ****, Square has some games in their library that blow Final Fantasy out of the water. Xenogears and Chrono Trigger come to mind, that should see more light of day than Final Fantasy.


Yeah, because so few people enjoyed 7 and 8. I hear your criticisms of 7 and I've heard them all before... reductionism to the absurd, is usually what they amount to. It still stands out as one of the greatest games of all time, and I'm sorry for those who missed out on what made it so fun.

Xenogears and ChronoTrigger are great games as well, though they also have their flaws. Xenogears inparticular suffered from a rushed production and significant portions of the endgame were left out. Personally I would even agree that CT and Xenogears rival FF7, but leaps and bounds better? **** no.

Likewise, to me it's completely defensible to say that FF6 is the best of the series, and certainly many people feel that way. But you also have to keep in mind a certain context of your own maturity as a player when you evaluate these games. Was FF6's story really so much better than FF7's, or was it maybe that FF6's story was better at 13 years old than FF7's was at 16 years old? We always tend to glorify things from our childhood because they have an advantage on us at those impressionable ages.

And sometimes people just don't like something nearly as much as everyone else. So oh well.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129 Mar 24 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Jordster wrote:
plutoknight wrote:

Anyway. its a good game, and anyone who tells you it isn't didn't play more than five hours of it. Its just got a bit of a pacing problem..


ftfy.
haha. I see what you did thar!

Ok, 5 hours is a bit more like it. I was bored until Lake Bresha, and then kinda bored until the Eidolon fights popped up.

Anyway I hope the new incarnation of the "Hunt" system from FF12 is lengthy and awesome, but even still, Pulse is such a breath of fresh air, I loved the build-up to it, however overly-lengthy it was, and reaching it was such an eye-opening experience.

And to everyone fighting over which FF game is best or what RPG is better than FF7 -- Look, we all know Chrono Trigger is the best RPG ever! XD

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:09pm by plutoknight
#130 Mar 24 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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i dont agree with you gaxe, but god **** that was hilarious.

as for my personal favorites, i agree with you about four and six; both were awesome, and four had some nice twists to it (golbez and cecil are bros?! wtf?!) while six is the only FF game currently that has had a villain with the balls to actually destroy the **** world (instead of just merely threatening).

also, kefka was just f*cking creepy. he was heath ledgers joker before heath ledger did the joker.

as for 13, i enjoy it. yeah its linear, but as noted before *all* FF's were linear, its just you wernt kept to a certain area for so long (and in 13's defense, you can still explore, it just takes place later on in the game).

as for me, the things that really stuck with me all happened during and after chapter 11. the history of pulse, as experienced while out in the world itself, just rocked my little gamer world. i thought it was very well done, and as i said before, id love for them to expand on it with subsequent games.
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#131 Mar 24 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
i dont agree with you gaxe, but god **** that was hilarious.
I can live with that. I gave my opinion on why I didn't enjoy that particular game. I'd say it was leagues above the "Wiki told me so!" and "You should turn your brain off and you'll enjoy it!" counter-arguments.

And yes, Kefka was Heath Ledger creepy before Heath was creepy. Smiley: thumbsup

Insta-Edit: I just found the chocobos in XIII, and it made Sazh even more awesome. And his little chocobo. God, I actually feel bad about mocking him prior to playing; Calling him Chocobro.

I mean, he's still Chocobro, but now he's awesome as well.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 8:00pm by lolgaxe
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#132 Mar 24 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Final Fantasy has certain things that make it a Final Fantasy game. For one, different character development systems, be it job systems or sphere grids, every FF has something different. Another is story telling. Every FF has a different theme like FFVII=death or FFX= tragic love story. FFXIII is "The battle within" or battle with one self. Most if not all the main character go through character growth in some fashion. Hope relation to Snow, Sezh feelings on Pulse, Lightnings feelings about herself.

Yes FFXIII is very linear but so was FFX or FFXII for that matter. Also you don't see towns folk because it wouldn't go along with the story since you are a fugitive and everyone is afraid of you. At the end of the day 13 is what it is and it takes it's place among all the FF games made and yet to be made.

P.S. Most polls show the most favored is Final Fantasy VI.
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#133 Mar 25 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
While it certainly isn't the best game of the franchise, it certainly isn't the worst. That honor is held by both Final Fantasy 7 and 8. Even then, 10, 10-2 and 12 are worse as well. 1 was, understandably, generic to a fault. 2's "spend an hour attacking yourself and be invincible" system was beyond stupid. 11 started pretty good, but Square's been squatting all over that for the last few years. 6's story was good, but characters were interchangeable. 5's were just indistinguishable between each other.


Actually I think you're right on. Except for the 7 part. And FF13 is still the worst*. And I thought 12 (although far from my favorite) blows away 13 in terms of pacing, acting and story. I didn't feel like a complete idiot playing it.

I think independent from what wikipedia says 7 did a lot of things right (or maybe came at the right time). Despite not being completely 3D it blew me away in terms of seeing 3D summons and awesome spell effects for the first time. Not to mention the wealth of mini-games and diversity. So as it may have had a cheesy story I was willing to forgive that because there was so much more to 'do' and see. FF13 story (characters) suck and there's one thing to do. Fight.


Quote:
My point is that Final Fantasy isn't some epic franchise. Their games are flawed; Some immensely so. But, with the exclusion of 7 and 8, they're relatively enjoyable.

There are better games, though. ****, Square has some games in their library that blow Final Fantasy out of the water. Xenogears and Chrono Trigger come to mind, that should see more light of day than Final Fantasy.


Yup and the first two (Konami) Suikoden games are way better than most FF games. Sorry for bouncing around so much but FF6 was awesome for SO many reasons, because it did some things differently and well.

RPGs to me are sprawling epics that put (me) in the 'role' (novel, eh?) of a hero (who doesn't keep calling himself one) and puts me in different experiences and gives me the opportunity to explore the story at my own pace regardless if it is an illusion of freedom or not. Oh and I usually get to name my characters, (@$$f4C3, XXcLOUDXX, or Steve) if I want.

*To be fair I've only put in 30 hours and I'm at the point where every says it turns around. Maybe if I treat it like an ugly girl with a decent *** I can beer goggle my way through it.



Edited, Mar 25th 2010 2:15am by Kierk
#134 Mar 25 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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...a hero (who doesn't keep calling himself one)...


i actually liked that about snow. at first it was annoying, and a bit overdone, but then lightning decked him a few times, and over the course of the game you realize that what started as a somewhat campy lampshading of the "hero" role actually is a core part of his personality. snow really does believe that he's in a position to be the hero, to save the people (and the girl) and make the world a better place. and he is. hes sure as **** more capable of it than the vast majority of other people in his world.

the relationship between lightning and snow was key to this i think; at first she just sees him as this irreverent blowhard, playing the part while the real soldier (her and the rest of the GC) do the real fighting. but as time goes by, he shows that hes willing to do whats necessary, that he can basically walk the talk he keeps talking.

lots of characters started out as a bit "iffy" in my mind. vanille was *too* cute, hope was *too* emo, snow was *too* noble, and sazh was a bit heavy on the comedic relief. but then as the game progresses, you learn more about hope and vanilles backgrounds, see snow come under intense pressure (and stick it out) and uncover a LOT of darkness in sazh. you also learn why lightning was so **** driven, and why vanille seemed so happy-go-lucky.

Quote:
I can live with that. I gave my opinion on why I didn't enjoy that particular game. I'd say it was leagues above the "Wiki told me so!" and "You should turn your brain off and you'll enjoy it!" counter-arguments.


word. i actually liked seven, even the story (altho as i got older, aerith really....i dunno, got on my nerves i guess you could say?), but the real joy for me was the materia system, and by extension, its use in the battle system. the story aint bad imo, but i found four, six, and ****, even one to be more engaging. but i can forgive seven in the same way i can forgive ten; it was a first for square, going for that grandiose style, trying to take things to the "next level" if you will. with ten, it was voice acting, something that was done either very well (auron for me) or something that was a bit forced at times (most everyone else). with seven, it was trying to make a cinematic gameplay experience while still being an RPG. you had different camera angles in battle, epic summon sequences, an expansion of the limit system and a great deal of customizability for your characters.

im more forgiving in that regard than some however lol. im also more of a fanboi than most, much to my chagrin at times >.<
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#135 Mar 25 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Decent
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A boring ineffectual "villain" that didn't really accomplish anything other than sneaking up on a FLOWER GIRL and killing her, and even then she still got the last laugh when it turns out his killing her didn't actually accomplish anything.


You seem to have forgotten about the mass amount of people he killed and the burning of villages and etc.

Quote:
The ending? Ahahaha ... Red XIII, who was the last of his kind, runs up to Ruin Midgar with his three kids. Whiskey tango foxtrot, TOC. The ending is meant to tie up loose ends, not make you want to throw a TV out a window.


His type of animal breeds with human females.

blahblahblah. The arguments against 7 are all just pure QQmoar ********* The game is overrated, good, we agree. It's still a great game. Now sit down and shut the **** up. t, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, all good games. 10-2 had an amazing battle system, crappy story. 12 was bland. Still playing 13 and 6.

Srsly lolgaxe, your anti-fanboy is more fanboy than the actual fanbois.
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#136 Mar 25 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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oh man, if only mittens were here.

and Z! man i miss Z.
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i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#137 Mar 25 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I can understand not appreciating FF7 fully for those who haven't played Crisis Core, because it shows you things like the way the world, characters, and story should have been seen had the hardware been capable of conveying it. Without having seen that, I can understand where a person would have trouble envisioning the world correctly. If you played Crisis Core and still heavily criticize the story of FF7, I guess you might be crazy.

As for 12 vs. 13, here's some perspective:
With 4000 player ratings, XII has a rating of 8.2--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/my/459841.html
Note also that there is not a disproportionate number of very low ratings of 1 and 2. These are relatively fair and honest ratings of the game.

With 1500 player ratings currently, XIII has a rating of 8.5--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps3/my/928790.html
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/my/950899.html
And as of now, 6.5% of PS3 and 3.5% of 360 players gave it an unfair rating of 1 (probably as many honest 1's as XII received, but mostly just people trying to bring down the average of the game).

So there is really already no doubt that XIII will be far better critically received than XII. I was discussing with my brother why XII was such a lackluster title a few hours ago, actually, and we shared the same opinions that most players had-- sparse story and underdeveloped characters, poor character progression mechanics and gameplay with a relatively short shelf life. There was plenty of content, but not a lot of incentive to complete it aside from just being a completionist.

I also have a theory that because the gameplay was very similar to FFXI, it was especially unappealing to most people who had already played XI for years. For the two of us at least, that was definitely a factor... we were already so familiar with the controls and general idea of the gameplay that it just didn't feel nearly as fresh as it would to someone who had never played a game quite like it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#138 Mar 25 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I can understand not appreciating FF7 fully for those who haven't played Crisis Core, because it shows you things like the way the world, characters, and story should have been seen had the hardware been capable of conveying it. Without having seen that, I can understand where a person would have trouble envisioning the world correctly. If you played Crisis Core and still heavily criticize the story of FF7, I guess you might be crazy.


its actually not that hard...people are different. different people like (and dislike) different things. many post-ff7 players think sephiroth is the end-all be-all of final fantasy villains. i happen to disagree; i think kefka did a masterful job, annihilating at least as many people as sephiroth did (and without even giving them the dignity of death by sword or fire). i think sephiroth was also pretty badass in his own way, but nobody will ever top kefka for me.

and thats fine. people can love sephiroth and hate (or ignore) kefka as much as they want. its an opinion thing. just like gaxes' feelings about ff7 are opinions. you may disagree, you may think hes crazy, but that doesnt change anything. i think anyone who thinks any villain is worse than kefka is batsh*t insane. kefka killed things for the pleasure of killing them, because he liked watching stuff die. he wanted to end the lives of everyone who lived in the world (and his too!) because he had come to the realization that we all die eventually, so why not just die now and get it over with. yet sephiroth had a big sword, long hair, and wasnt as overtly mentally unstable. ive yet to see a girl say they can/want to "change" kefka, but the sheer amount of sephiroth fan fiction chock full of mary sues should tell you how many women thought they could (and wanted to) "change" sephiroth.

but to each their own.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 12:37am by Quor
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i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#139 Mar 25 2010 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm talking purely about people who think that FF7 had an objectively bad story and characters. Naturally in any art form there is a great deal of subjectivity, but there is also objectivity in the appeal something carries with its audience. Where this becomes a problem is when someone doesn't think "this wasn't for me" but "this wasn't good for all people who are intelligent consumers of this art form". I love the music of Avenged Sevenfold, and some people would draw from that that I have bad taste and know little of music, when in reality I have an excellent music education. To them, they know good music, so if they don't like Avenged Sevenfold, only people who aren't as "sophisticated" as they are would like that band.

I didn't like XII, and it was for many reasons an objectively (relatively) poor Final Fantasy title. But I don't pretend like it was a terrible title. It was a 6 or 7 for me, which isn't bad, but isn't worth my time to play and doesn't keep my interest. I recognize that it does more for some people than it did for me.

So all I was saying was that there's a valid and objective reason why some people wouldn't like the story of 7, and I think most people would find that reason absolved by having played Crisis Core. If not, then there is probably some very unusual reason why they wouldn't (like craziness... or perhaps some other hyperbolic explanation :p )

I know some people didn't like the very confusing start to XIII. Personally I approached it like you would a mystery novel/movie and tried to figure out what was going on, then as I pieced together information from the game and datalog, I got the general idea very quickly. People who didn't or couldn't have a similar approach to the game might find the story frustrating and needlessly confusing, even though I enjoyed it. So this is something fairly subjective, as it plays to the normal audience's psychology (who are receptive to this kind of storytelling approach), but some people would predictably not like it.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#140 Mar 25 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I can understand not appreciating FF7 fully for those who haven't played Crisis Core, because it shows you things like the way the world, characters, and story should have been seen had the hardware been capable of conveying it. Without having seen that, I can understand where a person would have trouble envisioning the world correctly. If you played Crisis Core and still heavily criticize the story of FF7, I guess you might be crazy.

As for 12 vs. 13, here's some perspective:
With 4000 player ratings, XII has a rating of 8.2--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/my/459841.html
Note also that there is not a disproportionate number of very low ratings of 1 and 2. These are relatively fair and honest ratings of the game.

With 1500 player ratings currently, XIII has a rating of 8.5--
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps3/my/928790.html
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/my/950899.html
And as of now, 6.5% of PS3 and 3.5% of 360 players gave it an unfair rating of 1 (probably as many honest 1's as XII received, but mostly just people trying to bring down the average of the game).

So there is really already no doubt that XIII will be far better critically received than XII. I was discussing with my brother why XII was such a lackluster title a few hours ago, actually, and we shared the same opinions that most players had-- sparse story and underdeveloped characters, poor character progression mechanics and gameplay with a relatively short shelf life. There was plenty of content, but not a lot of incentive to complete it aside from just being a completionist.

I also have a theory that because the gameplay was very similar to FFXI, it was especially unappealing to most people who had already played XI for years. For the two of us at least, that was definitely a factor... we were already so familiar with the controls and general idea of the gameplay that it just didn't feel nearly as fresh as it would to someone who had never played a game quite like it.



Yet a quick look on Metacritic suggests that FFXII critically is better with a 92, where as FFXIII has an 83.

User scores are different though. With FFXIII with an 8.7 and FFXII with a 7.7.

I honestly think that SE is obviously doing something right. They need the business.

Here's a quick analogy: A lot of critics love the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds, but joe everyone loves the crappy song Kokomo. Kokomo made it to number #1 and went platinum. It was a relatable catchy, yet vapid song. Every song on Pet Sounds is 1000x better. All that matters is what the people think, but in FF's case I just don't get it.
#141 Mar 25 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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And as I've pointed out, critics -especially of video games- are just players like anyone else. They may be a bit better informed or "cultured" in the art than the average player, but that is by far the least true in the video game genre. I could go on for pages why, but I can't imagine why anyone would really need an explanation.

Critical reception doesn't just refer to the reception of "critics" either. On that note, I interpret FFXIII to be much better received on Metacritic than XII.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#142 Mar 25 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm talking purely about people who think that FF7 had an objectively bad story and characters. Naturally in any art form there is a great deal of subjectivity, but there is also objectivity in the appeal something carries with its audience.


i think its hard to bring objectivity and subjectivity into it. you say avenged sevenfold, which while not my favorite band, i personally like. but regardless of my personal feelings, you cant say the musicians in the band (guitars, drums, bass) arent musically skilled. i play drums, and i know its not easy to do some of the beats ASX does. same for a lot of stuff metallica does as well as many other heavy metal acts (and some punk too...and ironically enough, jazz).

so i think from an objective, technical perspective, seven was great. each FF was great in its own right, pushing the limits of graphical power as well as gameplay innovation. while its tempting to look back at the yesteryear nostalgia of exploring a huge world into every nook and cranny, saving at save points before you use your tent/cabin/house to restore life and mana (or in FF1, spell "uses"), its also necessary to understand that things have changed. the minutiae of managing every little bit of your party has given way to an evolution involving a more streamlined, story-driven experience. mass effect to mass effect 2 is another version of this; you drop the healing ability (medi-gel) for an auto-heal ability similar to what you get in gears of war or halo, and ditch the expansive inventory for a slimmer, customizeable armor and weapon loadout approach. in both the case of ME and the evolutions of FF, you have a slimming of "chores" in lieu of a focus on gameplay.

some hardcore rpg purists (ok, all of em) would probably argue against that, that the presence of that minutiae of inventory management and health gain via items is what defines an RPG as an RPG, but SE understands that the evolution of the game is changing, and people would rather not be bogged down quite as much with that kind of thing.

and objectively, seven was quite succesful. it brought RPG's into the mainstream more than any other RPG did. i remember in high school several people who i did NOT peg as gamers were all aflutter about FF7, which was **** near anathema to me coming off of chrono trigger and FF6. but seven was fun when i played it, and its still fun now, albeit with a bit of an onerous edge to some things, which i attribute to that whole genre evolution thing i mentioned before. objectively, i doubt anyone can say FF7 was a failure. it sold a lot of units, advanced the genre (for better or worse) and was a fine first attempt at an epic, cinematic style of play (vs the somewhat stale-by-comparison fare that was the standard up until then).

however, that doesnt account for gaxes' guttural reaction against the stories protagonist and antagonist. some characters you just hate, and especially if theyre the main characters of a game, that causes you to hate the game. personally, i think some of gaxes' hatred comes from the sheer number of people who fell in love with those specific characters he hates, and i cant say i blame him. tifa is awesome, and she will always be my number two FF girl, right behind rydia, but even i, in my own fanboi-ism, cant stand the....i guess the best word is "groupies" that grew up around sephiroth and cloud. i actually *like* cloud as a character; he has deep personal flaws and the strength to change the world while lacking the confidence in himself to do so. but my god, as a sometime writer of fan-fiction, the sheer number of cloud romance fan fics ive seen just....i think its turned me off to seven as the years have gone by, and i wouldnt be surprised if gaxe felt the same way (we are brothers in slaughter after all).

so while i understand what youre saying when you say...

Quote:
So all I was saying was that there's a valid and objective reason why some people wouldn't like the story of 7, and I think most people would find that reason absolved by having played Crisis Core. If not, then there is probably some very unusual reason why they wouldn't (like craziness... or perhaps some other hyperbolic explanation :p )


...i doubt it. youre talking about a game that brings to light a lot of the unknowns in the world of FF7, and this includes a number of characters that gaxe has shown to have a rather low opinion of. ive seen/played crisis core, and it was fun and i liked the extra lore i learned in it, but its ultimately about the events leading up to seven, and the people involved in them. gaxe doesnt like the people involved in seven, so i really doubt hed like them more after playing crisis core.

and if theres one thing gaxe is consistent in, its hatred. its his most endearing quality!
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feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#143 Mar 25 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
however, that doesnt account for gaxes' guttural reaction against the stories protagonist and antagonist. some characters you just hate, and especially if theyre the main characters of a game, that causes you to hate the game. personally, i think some of gaxes' hatred comes from the sheer number of people who fell in love with those specific characters he hates, and i cant say i blame him. tifa is awesome, and she will always be my number two FF girl, right behind rydia, but even i, in my own fanboi-ism, cant stand the....i guess the best word is "groupies" that grew up around sephiroth and cloud. i actually *like* cloud as a character; he has deep personal flaws and the strength to change the world while lacking the confidence in himself to do so. but my god, as a sometime writer of fan-fiction, the sheer number of cloud romance fan fics ive seen just....i think its turned me off to seven as the years have gone by, and i wouldnt be surprised if gaxe felt the same way (we are brothers in slaughter after all).

so while i understand what youre saying when you say...

Quote:
So all I was saying was that there's a valid and objective reason why some people wouldn't like the story of 7, and I think most people would find that reason absolved by having played Crisis Core. If not, then there is probably some very unusual reason why they wouldn't (like craziness... or perhaps some other hyperbolic explanation :p )


...i doubt it. youre talking about a game that brings to light a lot of the unknowns in the world of FF7, and this includes a number of characters that gaxe has shown to have a rather low opinion of. ive seen/played crisis core, and it was fun and i liked the extra lore i learned in it, but its ultimately about the events leading up to seven, and the people involved in them. gaxe doesnt like the people involved in seven, so i really doubt hed like them more after playing crisis core.


You're still missing my point. Now, you may be right about lolgaxe, and I would agree to the extent that most people who SAY they didn't like the story/characters really just don't want to be associated with the kind of people who DO (which is what I was saying in the first part of my post). But that is not necessarily the case, and not how I interpreted his assessment of the game. He made objective criticisms of the story/characters, not only guttural and subjective ones.

Now IF you're right about his reasons for not liking the story/characters, I'd agree. Crisis Core would do nothing for him. But there are some people who genuinely just didn't like it, and then having reflected on why, found a compelling and objective reason for their dislike of the game. For those people, I think playing Crisis Core would show them how characters like Cloud and Aeris should have been envisioned.
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#144 Mar 25 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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My disdain for 7 is only partially the game itself.

Marking a departure from the typical "Medieval swords and magic" and going into the "Technology and space" theme was one I didn't much care for. I also never cared much for emo main characters (which is why I disliked 8 too). The only reason I exclude Cecil from this is that once you hit Mount Ordeals, he gets away from his angst and grows into a real hero. I also didn't really care for the fact that the only character who was really starting to have a good chance at character development was shish-ke-bob'ed at the end of disk one.

That said, I did like the materia system, and the golden saucer (particularly chocobo races and breeding) was one of my favorite aspects of the game. The soundtrack was pretty solid, and the limit break system was a nice addition.

In the end though, it's not the game itself that ruined the game for me, it's the fanboys. I think we can agree that the game is so immensely overrated. Anyone that can't see how is probably one of those fanboys.

The problem is, the PS1/N64 era of gaming changed gaming entirely. A whole new breed of gamers were coming into the console realm, and for many, the PS1 or N64 was their first video game system. Without regard to the N64 side, for many gamers of that era, FF7 was the first Final Fantasy they ever played. Quite honestly, it's to the point that if I ask someone "What's the first FF game you ever played?", if they say 7, I'm jawdroppingly astounded if they don't fight to the death defending it as "The greatest FF ever made". I'm also pretty **** surprised if I ask if they ever played any of the FF1-6 titles, because usually this same group of people will proudly state "No, the graphics suck", COMPLETELY dismissing two consoles worth of titles' stories that they have never gotten to experience.

Most people who played during the NES/SNES era will almost always submit FF4, FF6, or both, as some of the best FF titles, and yet the PS1/PS2 era players have completely dismissed them. Even players who started in the post PS1 era and went back and gave the SNES FFs a chance tend to admit that they're more polished and have better stories. Not always, but usually.

For the record, my first FF was FF1 for NES.

Moving past the inherent fanboyism that having 7 be your first seems to breed the inherent idea that 7 was the best, we move ahead to 8. By the time 8 came out, almost everyone who played it had played 7, and probably more than half (if not most) of the people who played 8 were playing the second FF title they had ever played. Thus 8 was largely compared to 7, and one of the more common negative reactions to 8 were things like "Where's Cloud?" "Where's the materia?" "This game sucks, there's no (insert FF7 thing)!". These players completely neglected to understand the fact (having never played any previous titles) that the entire franchise to this point had already been over 10 disjointed titles (once you count Legend/Adventure and MQ), most of which having very little to do with each other, save for the common recurring themes of chocobos, crystals, the typical "Save the world" RPG cliche, and someone named "Cid" (although that started in II).

Granted I wasn't a huge fan of 8, but it followed the most overrated FF of all time by managing to be the most underrated, since it was unjustly compared to its immediate predecessor by people who had no clue what they were talking about. By the time 9 and 10 hit shelves, people had finally figured it out, but it was too late for 8 already.

FF: The Spirits Within received a massive amount of poor press. The biggest complaint about the movie? "It had nothing to do with the game". And it should be painfully obvious, given the history of FF fanboyism, that by "The game", critics meant "7". When TSW came out, all of the FF7 fanboys were pretty much expecting to see what Advent Children was. When they didn't get it, they were ******* and as such an otherwise good movie (which, by any other name, would have received great ratings) got bombed.

So yeah, FF7 was an okay game, but most of my dislike for it comes not from the game itself, but from the horribly rabid fanboys it seems to have produced. FF10 was almost as bad in terms of fanboys, but FF7 will forever be one of the most overrated, overpraised games, due in large amount to the sheer amount of people who played it for whom it was their first FF game. You will nearly never see anyone for whom 7 was NOT their first say that 7 was their favorite. In fact, I only say "nearly never" not because I've ever heard of such a thing, but because statistically, I'm sure someone of that nature exists. I think the only way I could ever take a "reasons I liked FF7" opinion seriously is if it WASN'T their first, due to the sheer amount of fanboy bias that seems to have soaked into the minds of the people for whom it was.
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#145 Mar 25 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
And as I've pointed out, critics -especially of video games- are just players like anyone else. They may be a bit better informed or "cultured" in the art than the average player, but that is by far the least true in the video game genre. I could go on for pages why, but I can't imagine why anyone would really need an explanation.

Critical reception doesn't just refer to the reception of "critics" either. On that note, I interpret FFXIII to be much better received on Metacritic than XII.


I don't want to split hairs but games are recieved and they are critically recieved. The main point about critics is that they at least try to be objective, and use thier gaming knowledge to reach somewhat fair conclusions. Everyone else may not have the means to verify how they feel based on evidence produced by a particular game.

Are video game reviews as in depth as say movie reviews, no. But I think that has to do with partly with the lack of maturation in the genre itself. However, giving a 10 and saying "omg dis is r grate game" hardly counts as critical analyisis.

Yes it looks as though 13 will be liked more than 12 by the people however I'm curious as to why. What isn't important is it's comparison to 12 but rather something else entirely. Generational diffrences, a ff game on a next gen console, very good presentation, etc.
#146 Mar 25 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
Kachi wrote:
And as I've pointed out, critics -especially of video games- are just players like anyone else. They may be a bit better informed or "cultured" in the art than the average player, but that is by far the least true in the video game genre. I could go on for pages why, but I can't imagine why anyone would really need an explanation.

Critical reception doesn't just refer to the reception of "critics" either. On that note, I interpret FFXIII to be much better received on Metacritic than XII.


I don't want to split hairs but games are recieved and they are critically recieved. The main point about critics is that they at least try to be objective, and use thier gaming knowledge to reach somewhat fair conclusions. Everyone else may not have the means to verify how they feel based on evidence produced by a particular game.

Are video game reviews as in depth as say movie reviews, no. But I think that has to do with partly with the lack of maturation in the genre itself. However, giving a 10 and saying "omg dis is r grate game" hardly counts as critical analyisis.

Yes it looks as though 13 will be liked more than 12 by the people however I'm curious as to why. What isn't important is it's comparison to 12 but rather something else entirely. Generational diffrences, a ff game on a next gen console, very good presentation, etc.


The problem with using "critical reception" is that you're generally talking about ONE person's opinion from ONE website or TV show or magazine. They can "try" to be objective, but once you combine the facts that:

1) Everyone has different tastes
2) Certain gaming companies DO pay for advertising (And to think that advertising doesn't affect reviews or that good/bad reviews don't affect future advertising is naieve)

You result in the fact that critical reviews are... I won't say "worthless", but I will say they are "of limited value at best". Referring to overall critical reception of a game is far more subjective than overall fan reception because it's a smaller group of people who are all reviewing the game on an opinion by opinion basis, and as I mentioned: a lot of those opinions may or may not be influenced by corporate advertising.

GameCo could release "Steaming Pile of ****" for PS3 today, and if you pick up Awesome Gaming Review Magazine and 80% of their advertising revenue comes from GameCo, it's a pretty safe bet that SPoS is getting a front page display and a 10 page review, touting it as revolutionary, and commanding the masses to rush out in a buying frenzy.

Granted I'm exaggerating my point a bit, but if you consider G4 and their history of devoting a full 30 minutes (or more) to certain games, and correlate that with which companies advertise said games on their network, you'll see that I'm not far off.

And before anyone points out, "But this is G4 you're talking about, and G4 sucks"; don't forget that G4 is one source of "critical reception", and that such a statement is pretty effective at proving my point about how subjective those critical receptions REALLY can be.

I've personally felt that the best thing a company can do is release free, easily obtainable demos and let players decide for themselves whether they want to plop down the $30-60 bucks. If you think your game is all that and a bag of chips, let the people who pay your salaries make that decision for themselves. I'm not going to say that NOT having a game demo necessarily implies the game is bad, but admit it: If you WEREN'T comfortable your product would sell well, would you want to give your customers the chance to try it before they buy it, or would you want cash up front? Just sayin.
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#147 Mar 25 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Just decided to pick up XIII recently. Some random thoughts: (Some very minor, early game spoilers, as I haven't gotten very far yet)

I'm really hoping that the characters start developing quickly. I'm at chapter 4 or so, and all but Sazh kind of irritate me (Haven't seen enough of Fang to judge her yet, though). It's something that I realized would be an issue from what I heard and saw before I got the game, but I still haven't gotten past it yet. Snow seems very shallow to me, and the casual banter and parroting about being a "hero" between him and the rest of NORA really takes the gravitas out of the holocaust of Cocoon that the Purge is supposed to represent. I wonder, if so many innocent people are being murdered, why are these people so carefree? It's not just wry, sarcastic humor...they seem to really just be messing around and being self-indulgent. Lightning's nasty, aggressive nature is completely abrasive. It seems like she's saying every line through clenched teeth. Hope is a weird one to me: sometimes it seems like he's taking things surprisingly well, and sometimes he's just sulky. It's understandable considering PTS and shock, but I just can't pin him down yet. But either way, he reminds me too much of Tidus from FFX, who I hated, what with his angsting about his parents, and lashing out randomly. Very common teenage stuff I suppose, but that doesn't mean that I enjoy a ham-handed portrayal of it from one of my main characters. Vanille is cute, but her voice is a little annoying, and I think that her bubbly personality is a bit too much of a caricature.

Perhaps I've just outgrown these games. The characters don't convey realistic, deep emotion. I feel like the Robot Devil in Futurama:

Quote:
Your dialogue lacks subtlety! You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!


The linearity isn't game-breaking, but I do miss the feeling that I'm "exploring" a new area, uncovering its secrets and deciding my own priorities of where to go first. Instead, everything is just "the path", and I spend the time enjoying the graphics. Personally, I don't think that's really to the game's benefit, though it was clearly deliberate. Even if there were branching paths, or open-ended areas, I'd still take the time to marvel at the surroundings, because they look that good. And that way, I'd still get that excitement that comes from exploring. Instead, like the characters, everything is just spelled out. Even character progression is linear: The limited implementation of the Crystarium means that my characters level up in a very straightforward manner. Combine those factors with the slow development of the battle system in the first couple hours, and it was like watching a video game on autopilot. Thankfully, the battle system is rounding out quite nicely now, at least.

All that being said, it's actually good game. But for me, it's frustrating that SE clearly works very hard to make parts of their games spectacular (graphics, art design), yet lately other aspects of the game seem to suffer from what I'd almost dare to call "lazy" design (plot, character development). I don't think that the Japanese conventions for characterization should clear these faults. I'm familiar with many Japanese stories that excel in these same categories, and SE definitely has the time and the resources to make these aspects of the same quality as their graphics. I'm beginning to think that SE has stagnated a bit in this regard, perhaps due to having an audience that's guaranteed to eat up their product regardless. We've been conditioned to enjoy what we're given, and SE does enough right to keep us from questioning that. But FFXIII's characters have started off on such a low level, that they're going to have to do a lot of work to even get back to neutral for me. That's the game's biggest problem so far, as I see it.
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#148 Mar 25 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
The linearity isn't game-breaking, but I do miss the feeling that I'm "exploring" a new area, uncovering its secrets and deciding my own priorities of where to go first. Instead, everything is just "the path", and I spend the time enjoying the graphics. Personally, I don't think that's really to the game's benefit, though it was clearly deliberate. Even if there were branching paths, or open-ended areas, I'd still take the time to marvel at the surroundings, because they look that good. And that way, I'd still get that excitement that comes from exploring. Instead, like the characters, everything is just spelled out. Even character progression is linear: The limited implementation of the Crystarium means that my characters level up in a very straightforward manner. Combine those factors with the slow development of the battle system in the first couple hours, and it was like watching a video game on autopilot.


I've been playing 13 on and off, and I never could put my finger on why I can't just sit down and play it without getting bored and feeling like I need to go do something else. I think what you just said sums it up perfectly.

At the risk of parroting much of that paragraph, I feel very strongly the same way; that I'm not exploring so much as "following a one way path" and that I'm not playing a game so much as "Watching an interactive movie".

Granted, [CUTSCENE] I'm only [CUTSCENE] on chapter [CUTSCENE] five, and [CUTSCENE] I hope [CUTSCENE][CUTSCENE] it improves, but [CUTSCENE] I can't seem [CUTSCENE] to actually [CUTSCENE][CUTSCENE] enjoy the [CUTSCENE] GAMEPLAY [CUTSCENE] aspect long enough [CUTSCENE] without [CUTSCENE] interruption.

I mean, I know SE has really had a ***** for CGI Cutscene-laden games since FF7, but given that there are three disks worth of gameplay, it really makes me wonder how much of the three disks is gameplay and how much is movie. And even full length movies with some bonus material thrown in usually tend to fit on one disk.

Again, it's not that I'm trying to find fault with the game, I just feel that between the massively overpowering cutscene bombardment (Which is why I didn't like Kingdom Hearts 2), and the fact that the actual gameplay portion is just following a relatively straightforward path from point A to point B (Which is why I didn't like Final Fantasy X), it seems to me like I have to make myself work at finding reasons to like the game and keep playing it so I don't feel like I wasted $90 buying a brand new game and hardback collector's edition guide.

Usually whenever I buy new games, I can't wait to open them, pop them in, and just plow through every last bit of optional content the game has to offer, and I can't be ***** to play ANYTHING else for the next 2-4 weeks. Not only do I feel like I have to practically force myself to sit down and play the game (and I haven't touched it in two days now), I actually -want- to just get to the end and be done with it and skip any optional content or side quests. And I have NEVER felt that way about ANY FF title, EVER. I have actually gotten so bored of 13 that I'm currently playing TWO OTHER FF TITLES (9 and 12) because FF13's gameplay and repeated cutscenes are making me pine for earlier games I enjoyed more.

Please, someone who has gotten farther in the game, tell me that the "point A to point B" maps are replaced by something more open, tell me that the combat system will become something more involved than a button masher, tell me that the cutscenes are going to go away and leave me alone and that the GAME will actually tell its own story instead of relying on hours of FMVs to do it. I'm busting my *** TRYING to find reasons to like the game. If anyone who has gotten farther in the game can give me any sort of indication that the game will get better in the areas I've mentioned, maybe it will light a spark under me to WANT to play it again.
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#149 Mar 25 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The problem with using "critical reception" is that you're generally talking about ONE person's opinion from ONE website or TV show or magazine. They can "try" to be objective, but once you combine the facts that:
 
1) Everyone has different tastes
2) Certain gaming companies DO pay for advertising (And to think that advertising doesn't affect reviews or that good/bad reviews don't affect future advertising is naieve)
 
You result in the fact that critical reviews are... I won't say "worthless", but I will say they are "of limited value at best". Referring to overall critical reception of a game is far more subjective than overall fan reception because it's a smaller group of people who are all reviewing the game on an opinion by opinion basis, and as I mentioned: a lot of those opinions may or may not be influenced by corporate advertising.
 
GameCo could release "Steaming Pile of sh*t" for PS3 today, and if you pick up Awesome Gaming Review Magazine and 80% of their advertising revenue comes from GameCo, it's a pretty safe bet that SPoS is getting a front page display and a 10 page review, touting it as revolutionary, and commanding the masses to rush out in a buying frenzy.
 
Granted I'm exaggerating my point a bit, but if you consider G4 and their history of devoting a full 30 minutes (or more) to certain games, and correlate that with which companies advertise said games on their network, you'll see that I'm not far off.
 
And before anyone points out, "But this is G4 you're talking about, and G4 sucks"; don't forget that G4 is one source of "critical reception", and that such a statement is pretty effective at proving my point about how subjective those critical receptions REALLY can be.
 
I've personally felt that the best thing a company can do is release free, easily obtainable demos and let players decide for themselves whether they want to plop down the $30-60 bucks. If you think your game is all that and a bag of chips, let the people who pay your salaries make that decision for themselves. I'm not going to say that NOT having a game demo necessarily implies the game is bad, but admit it: If you WEREN'T comfortable your product would sell well, would you want to give your customers the chance to try it before they buy it, or would you want cash up front? Just sayin.

 

Nah, critical reception means a least a few differing well offered opinions. I don't know of many receptions that one person can throw. I wouldn't take stock in just one opinion.
 
I also don't believe solely what Adam Sessler tells me. Nor do I think Playstation Magazine or XBox magazine have an unbiased opinion; their purpose is to sell games. Yeah and late night talk shows aren't primarily entertainment they're PR machines. I understand that completely.
 
I too am aware of the Kane and Lynch/Gamespot debacle and the roll that video game "payola" can play. Bias is inescapable.
 
But looking at an aggregate site like metacritic or rotten tomatoes and you'll often see that the sum of a group of critics is a way better indicator of the worth of something, more times than not. Especially against a random group of fans whose bias is overt.

How is it that the 'biased' critics scores are generally more even keeled than the whims of fanbased ratings?
 
I agree with the demos thing (I'd like to see more of that too) however most game companies don't want to play that game. If you were them and you thought your game was good, and you spent millions of dollars on it, then it turns out people hated the demo. Oops. I've seen movie trailers that are so poorly edited that relayed the wrong tone of the actual movie, so there are definitely a lot of factors they would have to take into consideration. Logistical and creative.

And about your latest post I agree completely. I couldn't wait to continue with Mass Effect 2 it was just paced right (my own pace). With 13 I'll have to force myself to play.
#150 Mar 25 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Marking a departure from the typical "Medieval swords and magic" and going into the "Technology and space" theme was one I didn't much care for. I also never cared much for emo main characters (which is why I disliked 8 too). The only reason I exclude Cecil from this is that once you hit Mount Ordeals, he gets away from his angst and grows into a real hero. I also didn't really care for the fact that the only character who was really starting to have a good chance at character development was shish-ke-bob'ed at the end of disk one.


Those are the kinds of more objective criticisms that I'm talking about.

The departure towards a more futuristic setting was one of the things that 7 did very well. Most RPGs up to that point were chipper protagonists in a high fantasy medieval setting, and 7 broke from that tradition by creating a darker, arguably more mature world.

As for emo main characters, that's the kind of comment that makes me think some people should play Crisis Core. Cloud is not some arbitrarily emo guy who acts like a badass "just 'cuz" and wields a big sword to compensate for something. He's a young man with a shy but pleasant demeanor who undergoes a traumatic experience that would make anyone depressed and withdrawn. In that sense he's a very believable and relatable character. And yeah, that other stuff gives him a lot of appeal. He was one of the first RPG protagonists that was really damaged, and easily one of the most badass.

Quote:
I don't want to split hairs but games are recieved and they are critically recieved. The main point about critics is that they at least try to be objective, and use thier gaming knowledge to reach somewhat fair conclusions. Everyone else may not have the means to verify how they feel based on evidence produced by a particular game.

Are video game reviews as in depth as say movie reviews, no. But I think that has to do with partly with the lack of maturation in the genre itself. However, giving a 10 and saying "omg dis is r grate game" hardly counts as critical analyisis.

Yes it looks as though 13 will be liked more than 12 by the people however I'm curious as to why. What isn't important is it's comparison to 12 but rather something else entirely. Generational diffrences, a ff game on a next gen console, very good presentation, etc.


The thing is, there is calno shortage of video game "buffs". And the problem with "buffs" is always that they can't necessarily assess the reception of the casual audience, either, nevermind the sheer demographic range their dealing with, NOR do they agree with eachother at all. Do you rate it based on how much you liked it, or how much you think the average person will like it? Both are highly limited. Why do some critics have such stark differences in their ratings? Could it be because they are each their own person? Yeah, and that's why it's better to just get as many "own people" to rate it as you can. There is no meaningful screening basis that selects critics from the average player. So player ratings are much more powerful, statistically speaking.

With a hyped game like FF13 especially, the only good thing that comes from critics are that you're not likely to get dishonestly low scores like 1's and 2's, though you'll still get overhyped 10's.

As for why 12 is received more poorly, I'm not sure I've ever been asked a simpler question. 12 was a huge departure from the franchise, and that alone would be reason enough. The general balance of story:gameplay was abandoned entirely, for example, to the chagrin of many fans of the series. 13 is by leaps and bounds more consistent with the expectations of the franchise and that alone will assure a better reception.

Audience, audience, audience. A -franchise- has expectations from its audience. FF12 had its own merits as a game, but it did not live up to the expectations of its audience, just like a Big Mac has its merits as a burger, but if I go to Burger King for a Whopper and get a Big Mac instead, I'm not going to say, "Oh, I wasn't expecting a Big Mac, but it has its own merits as a burger." I'm going to say, "This is not what I ordered. If I wanted a Big Mac I would go to McDonald's." FF12 was not the kind of game that most players go to the Final Fantasy # franchise for.

All that aside, it's my personal opinion that 13 is also simply a better game.

@Eske: I find the characters to be very believable and human. Yes, they're a touch exaggerated, especially early in the game when you don't understand where they're coming from.

As for the linearity, love it. I love that I don't have to make a bunch of trips to GameFAQs to make sure that I don't miss anything. Granted some people aren't concerned with getting a perfect playthrough, but as someone who doesn't want to miss anything, it's something I really appreciate. I was going to pick a linear path (the "right" path) anyway. Now I don't have to bother figuring out what it is. I know I'm going to get the "good" ending without any outside help.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#151 Mar 25 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
How is it that the 'biased' critics scores are generally more even keeled than the whims of fanbased ratings?


Everyone is biased, be they "critics" or "fans". The closest thing you'll get to an "unbiased rating" is to ignore all 1/10 and 10/10 ratings (or anything under 10% or above 95%) and take an aggregate score from everything else.

I've always been of the opinion that I don't trust any review that can't come up with at least two positive things and at least two negative things to say about a game (and for these purposes, "I can't stop playing it" is not a negative point, nor is "At least the game didn't give me cancer" is not a positive point). No matter how good a game is, it will have downsides and no matter how bad a game is, it will have good sides. Granted, I'd probably be hard pressed to find the good sides in some of the shining examples of fail out there, but I still stick by my assertion that any review that can't come up with valid good and bad aspects of a game isn't worth the paper it's printed on (or kb it takes up on the web server).
 
Kierk wrote:
I agree with the demos thing (I'd like to see more of that too) however most game companies don't want to play that game. If you were them and you thought your game was good, and you spent millions of dollars on it, then it turns out people hated the demo. Oops. I've seen movie trailers that are so poorly edited that relayed the wrong tone of the actual movie, so there are definitely a lot of factors they would have to take into consideration. Logistical and creative.


If you thought your game was good and you spent millions of dollars on it only to find out people hated the demo, maybe you need to take a step back and re-evaluate it.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/127579/the_10_worst_games_of_all_time.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception

I'm sure, or at least I'd hope, that no one with any sense in their mind would see a game in development that was turning out badly and still continue pumping funding into it, see that it ended badly, and publish it anyway. When you consider games iconic of being the worst of the worst like Superman 64 and Atari's ET, never mind all of the $1-$5 bargain bin titles you see at your local Rite-Aid or dollar store, you have to consider that at least some of those developers were genuinely happy with their steaming pile of ****, and were completely oblivious to the fact that it was indeed a steaming pile of ****.

Why should we, the consumer, still have to give them our money to find out that it's a steaming pile of ****? Now they've made money and we're stuck with a shiny coaster that cost us $20-60. Sure, you can end up trading in some of those games (at a loss of money to you) to your local game shop, but at this point the company has already made their money and they will go on to waste money and time making Steaming Pile of **** 2. Sure, it probably won't sell well, but wouldn't their time and resources be better served on something that doesn't suck?

Granted there are some games I just go out knowing I'm going to like and I buy them and usually I'm right (Mass Effect 2, GTA4, Sims 3, Beautiful Katamari, Miles Edgeworth). Usually it's because they're sequels of other established franchises like the examples I cited above. Other games from established franchises (SimCity Societies, Lunar: Dragon Song, FF13) I loved previous games from the series but... I just wonder what the **** happened.

I mean, I'm sure there are some people out there that like them, but I'm not one of them. At least in the case of Lunar:DS I was warned that it was a steaming pile of crap before I spent any money on it, and in the case of SC:Societies, I picked it out of a bargain bin for $5 (I almost bought it for $50 new when it first came out and I'm glad I didn't; this way I only wasted $5 instead of ten times that).

Conversely, there are bargain bin games I'll find that I've never heard of before (Dungeon Keeper, Impossible Creatures, Battle Realms) that just turn out to be a ton of fun, and then there are games I've heard tons of negative reviews on (FF:Mystic Quest, Quest 64) that despite all the negative reviews; I thought they were fun, albeit somewhat childish in both examples.

In the end, no matter how many reviews I read, there's only one person's review I put all my faith in: My own. And I'll admit, it's pretty **** biased, too.

Kierk wrote:
And about your latest post I agree completely. I couldn't wait to continue with Mass Effect 2 it was just paced right (my own pace). With 13 I'll have to force myself to play.


Yeah, ME2 was another game that I found myself doing every side quest I could find. I grinded minerals to buy every upgrade I could afford as soon as I could afford it. I guess that ended up being another thing I disliked about 13 was that it is extremely prohibitive to grinding. I could probably grind mats to massively upgrade all my weapons, but since you can't level up and your crystarium levels are capped, there's only so far your character progression can take you, whereas in 12 I found myself doing every hunt as soon as I could, grinding LP asap. As I mentioned before, I'm playing the game through from scratch again, Story-wise, I just got the Dawn Shard and am supposed to be heating to Jahara to eat with the Garif; I have 3 Quickenings for everyone, 6 Golden Amulets, the Zodiac Spear, every non-item Augment for everyone, every spell license for all spells I currently have (and all spells bought, ditto for Technicks.

Honestly, I find myself turning every game I play into a grindfest. Even in the Sims, I'll usually build up all of my person's skills and not let them leave the house to get a job or talk to anyone (they can use the computer for social) until they're maxed out.

I've always preferred games that let you choose whether you wanted to just play through the story as fast as possible or whether you wanted to stop and grind a bit (or a lot) at any point. I think that if FF13 were a little more open-world as opposed to the "Point A to point B" pathing, and didn't limit your character growth, I'd probably enjoy it a lot more.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
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