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i hope conjurers don't become pigeon holed as healbotsFollow

#1 Mar 12 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
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Considering the rest of the classes seem focused on DPS/tanking--with Monk having a self heal and Thaumaturge having a sacrificial heal, which will probably be situational at best--I'm worried Conjurers will be forced to spec to be White mages and spam cure =/ I really hope SE lets CON spec pure DPS / hybrid and still be effective. I can't STAND healing to be honest, I really hope they don't ***** over spell casters like that.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 4:32pm by imperialvulture
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#2 Mar 12 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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As usual, don't expect to get as much invites as healers do if you go a DPS conjurer- but I don't see why they would be pigeon holed into healer roles. Play what you want.
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#3 Mar 12 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Also, they are still in Alpha stage, things are subject to change.
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#4 Mar 12 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, and Thaum's getting that mana regen reminds me a lot of Refresh. Which means that they alone will get invites left and right. Who knows, maybe they'll actually make healing fun instead of staring at health bars.

All I know is, melee dps is going to clog 14 just as badly as they did in 11. There's going to be a lot of Lancers and Marauders and not enough Gladiators/Monks speccing to tank, or Conjs/Thaums specced for party utility/heals.

I am not whining, just pointing out patterns I've seen in MMOs. I hope I am proven wrong.
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#5 Mar 12 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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If someone will try to change that, I don't think that will happen in an MMO. The holy trinity has been around in games since the beginning, and I don't think an MMO is a good experiment ground for something completely new, that would fix the issue you mentioned.

Before someone revolutionizes the genre, expect to deal with that issue.
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#6 Mar 12 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I doubt it. Yes, healing ones will probably have an easier time finding groups, but you wouldn't be forced into it. From the sounds of it, they're also the main elemental mages, so that's an important role too.
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#7 Mar 12 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
Well i believe it will be like that. Conjures will be FFXIV:s White mages... But i believe also that they make some changes to the jobs now when Beta has started and they'll see how jobs work out together. If i understood right they especially follow how Thaumaturge works out. Maybe Conjures can special either white magic or black magic among other elements.

These jobs are also just starting jobs. For sure they'll add new jobs sooner or later, so there might be 100% heal jobs later.
#8 Mar 12 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Well, FF14 sounds like it could do away with the holy trinity some-what with its emphasis on tactical group based battles. I mean, if you fight a group of mobs at once, what's to stop a bunch of Conjs spamming AOE and farming them? Granted it wouldn't be as efficient as a "normal" party, but I imagine it could be done.

My worry is that they are repeating the same mistakes they did in 11. There were just too many **** melee DD's in that game and not enough party slots.

I also hope you can make enough money without having to level a tradeskill job... I really have never enjoyed tradeskilling that much in MMO's. Knowing SE though they will have the best gear come from tradeskilling, so I'll have to befriend some miners quick :P
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#9 Mar 12 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest I was looking forward to playing a Black Mage-styled magic DPS class in 14. I hope it all evens out in the long run. I wouldn't mind being a Red Mage swiss army knife, but a healbot White Mage? **** NO. (No offense to people who enjoy healing, I just can't stand doing it all the time)
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#10 Mar 12 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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My worry is that they are repeating the same mistakes they did in 11. There were just too many **** melee DD's in that game and not enough party slots.


At least so far it looks like every DD class has a bigger purpose in a fight than just a different way of dealing damage. I only hope that they don't go overboard with adding more classes, if they don't have a solid role in mind for them, that adds to the game.
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#11 Mar 12 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It's funny to come across this thread, because I've been talking to everyone lately about how worried I am that there will be no dedicated healing class and that Conjurers may not be able to spec specifically for healing, thus becoming (as I've said before) a "jack of all trades" that just happens to be able to heal as well, but is brought into the party specifically for damage.

So I've had the opposite concern.. that everyone is going to want Conjurers to be DPS and if I were to grow in the direction of healing I might be out of luck.

I loathe offensive magic.. I don't mind a melee DPS at all but for some reason, offensive magic bores the bajeebus outta me. Leveling BLM was such a chore that I had to do to be able to take WHM to max... I'm so glad I got it far enough up that even with the level cap raise, I can still level my WHM without ever having to go back to that blasted BLM sub.

My main lot in any MMO I've ever been in, has been Healer. Dedicated healer. If I'm a mage, the one and only thing I wanna be doing? Is healing.

If I can't do that in FFXIV, I won't bother with a mage class.. I'll fall to my backup plan.
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#12 Mar 12 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whether or not you can become dedicated to a role, from the looks of everything so far, I don't think that there's going to be any dedicated classes. I think it's a really good idea, as long as they don't balance the game for those dedicated characters.
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#13 Mar 12 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's also important to factor in the HP recovery mode when talking about a discussion on healing.

This game has a lack of natural MP regen and a natural HP regen outside of battle. This is a functional flip of XI, where there was an abundance of natural MP regen outside of battle and natural HP regen was rendered meaningless. This means the need for healing is not only minimized and but outright punished in excess.

All the healing done in the game is only necessary in-battle healing. Because HP recovery mode is free (in theory) and cures cost mana, when the battle ends it'll be up to every individual to regenerate their own health. At the end of the day, winning a battle with full health is not necessary for success, in fact in this case it might even be a gross waste of mana. There's only 1 HP matters, the very last one.





#14 Mar 12 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zemzelette wrote:
there was an abundance of natural MP regen
I really have to disagree here.

Did you ever play Black Mage? Smiley: dubious
#15 Mar 12 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Played Whitemage and Summoner, actually. :p
I'm speaking comparatively, insomuch that a majority of your mana-regen was outside of battle (pre-ToAU). There are other games out there where the whole mechanic of resting is just out and out alien logic. But yeah, within the continuity of that single game, abundant makes it sound overly powerful.



Edited, Mar 12th 2010 6:23pm by Zemzelette
#16 Mar 12 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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If it does, it does. At that point you'll have a few options: Either deal with it and heal, level something else, or get used to soloing and sparse invites. The whole "It's my money I can play as I want" argument is invalidated when your "enjoyment" is at the detriment of the other people you're playing with.
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#17 Mar 12 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Please god stop saying dps.
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#18 Mar 12 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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If it does, it does. At that point you'll have a few options: Either deal with it and heal, level something else, or get used to soloing and sparse invites. The whole "It's my money I can play as I want" argument is invalidated when your "enjoyment" is at the detriment of the other people you're playing with.

Ok, but the game's not out yet, this is the exact time when you make your opinions known. And as I said, it sounds like conjurer is the main elemental mage too, aka black mage, so there's no reason that shouldn't be a viable role.

Please god stop saying dps.

No.

Oh, do you mean as a description for a damage dealer or damage per second? Either way, it's a common term so expect to see it.
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#19 Mar 12 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Default
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Every MMO has a healing class and Conjurer appears to be that class in FFXIV. If you can't stand healing then why be the healing class? I'm confused.

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't realize this appears to be the nuking class as well.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:33pm by TauuOfSiren
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#20 Mar 12 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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Because conjurer also looks to be a nuking class. If you want to be a nuking class, why play something else?
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#21 Mar 12 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
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Assuming there are no other unrevealed/advance jobs/classes/disciplines I'm guessing most people are going to expect Conjurer's primary role in PT's to be anything other than healing and support. Does this mean I want Conjurer's to be stuck as heal bots? No, I would love to see Conjurer's with DD abilities as long as first and foremost they concentrate on supporting the party. I personally love hybrid classes that combine DD and support like FFXI's Corsair, Vanguard's Bard and Druid, and Aion's Chanter. My philosophy has alway been if you want to go pew, pew, nuke, nuke, as a mostly support class never complain when people don't want to invite you into their pt.


Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:25pm by Tenison
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#22 Mar 12 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Raymund wrote:

Please god stop saying dps.

No.

Oh, do you mean as a description for a damage dealer or damage per second? Either way, it's a common term so expect to see it.


No, it's a WoW term. It just happens that many people played WoW. Doesn't mean it's a common term.
I would wager that half to most of the players in FFXIV will be from FFXI (even if they played WoW at some point), thus DPS will not be a "common term."

And don't let this fool you into thinking I want to derail or discuss the intricacies of WoW vs FFXI. Both are great.

But WoW was a skill spam game. FFXI was not. I believe WoW had some way to tell you your damage per second and if it didn't I know there was at least a plugin. FFXI did not.

FFXIV won't be about spamming skills, given that you're using some vision of an ATB/TP bar and not 500 abilities on a cooldown. So don't "expect to see it."
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#23 Mar 12 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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It really depends on what skills you decide to invest in, the interview said a conjurer could specialise in specific magic, ie fire, water etc so if you want to be a black mage just pick an element and go with that.

DPS is not a WoW term its used in almost ever MMO.

Quote:
All I know is, melee dps is going to clog 14 just as badly as they did in 11.


FF11 wasn't like that prior to ToAU.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:23pm by Diakar
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#24 Mar 12 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, the term DPS(Damage Per Second) has been around since back in the glory days of EQ1 and UO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reason FFXI uses the term DD(Damage Dealer) is because that's more accurate translation of the Japanese term.
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#25 Mar 12 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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has a "cure" or "heal" spell been mentioned? (for conjurer)

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 1:31am by insanekangaroo
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#26 Mar 12 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaymasters wrote:
Because conjurer also looks to be a nuking class. If you want to be a nuking class, why play something else?

Oh ok I think I understand now. It's like they put BLM and WHM together into one class with the ability to lean more towards one or the other. Kinda like SCH?

Perhaps the main healing class hasn't been shown yet. There will be a high demand for healing, you can't have a challenging MMO without the need for it. If 75% of Conjurers insist on nuking that could be a problem.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:34pm by TauuOfSiren
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#27 Mar 12 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
has a "cure" or "heal" spell been mentioned? (for conjurer)


Conjurer Abilities
Profound: Casting time increases but so does the spell power
Trance Chant: No matter what, your spell casting will not be interrupted
Spirit Bind: You bind yourself in exchange for decreasing MP costs per spell
Roaming Soul: You can cast while walking
Purge: You can balance off the elemental status of you and the enemy (translation note: I really don’t know what they mean by that)

Weapon Skills
Fire: an AoE fire attack
Cure: an AoE cure spell
Protect: an AoE spell that increases the physical defense of your party members
Shock Spikes: A thunder elemental spell that surrounds you and will attack and paralyze the enemy if you are attacked
Frost: a DoT AoE ice spell
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#28 Mar 12 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Default
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It's kind of weird that cure is mentioned as a weapons skill also.

I guess all magic is classed as a weapon skill now though maybe :S

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:38pm by Diakar
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#29 Mar 12 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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It could be a problem, it really depends on all the other classes. I know somewhere it mentioned Archers having a little way to heal, and I'm willing to be that other jobs have a way to heal. If set up right, the game might actually work easier for hybrid characters than min/maxers.

I really wish they'd at least give us an idea of what they are aiming for.
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#30 Mar 12 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's kind of weird that cure is mentioned as a weapons skill also.

I guess all magic is classed as a weapon skill now though maybe :S


Since "class" is detirmined by what kinda weapon you're holding it does kinda make sense if you look at magic as a skill derived from channeling through a staff.
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#31 Mar 12 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Default
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It's kind of weird that cure is mentioned as a weapons skill also.

I guess all magic is classed as a weapon skill now though maybe :S


Maybe it uses TP instead of MP for that particular one.
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#32 Mar 12 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Default
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Well they want soloing to be an option, so it makes sense that all classes would have enough oh, something, to both survive a battle and do enough damage to kill the enemies.

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 8:49pm by Raymund
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#33 Mar 12 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess all magic is classed as a weapon skill now though maybe :S


Mp Bar. Silly. :p
They just haven't released the spells yet.

The reason your seeing generic-seeming spells attached to something as precious as TP, is because they're AOE. AOE in a game about position is good stuff. Especially if it's the instantaneous natural by-product of casting that requires no further use of mana. Downright Delicious.




Edited, Mar 12th 2010 8:09pm by Zemzelette
#34 Mar 12 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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It could be a problem, it really depends on all the other classes. I know somewhere it mentioned Archers having a little way to heal, and I'm willing to be that other jobs have a way to heal. If set up right, the game might actually work easier for hybrid characters than min/maxers.

I really wish they'd at least give us an idea of what they are aiming for.


All classes have a self heal, but Conjurer seem to have the only publically known way to heal others with no strings attatched. I'm guessing the self heals are more for solo, and those "Oh ****" moments than standard use.



Edited, Mar 12th 2010 7:51pm by Tenison
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#35 Mar 12 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it said that archers could use an arrow to heal with (cupid). I'll see if I can find it.
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#36 Mar 12 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tenison wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reason FFXI uses the term DD(Damage Dealer) is because that's more accurate translation of the Japanese term.
No, DD is used in place of DPS because it sounds less stupid. Think about it.

"We're looking for damage dealers!"

"We're looking for damage per seconds!"

Seriously. It might have been around, but that doesn't make it sound less ridiculous.
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#37 Mar 12 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it said that archers could use an arrow to heal with (cupid). I'll see if I can find it.


I can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong, I could swear up and down in a court of law that I read it somewhere recently.
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#38 Mar 12 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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I personally doubt that they will get pigeonholed.
The nature of the "leveling" system as more explained in recent updates there will be so many different kinds of unique versions of each characters abilities per archetype.
A Conjurer is basically "all" mages, but which skills you choose to use the most will level up.
Perhaps some mages will choose to go all white magic, cures, buffs. Others might focus more on Elemental magic, etc.
If you're limited to how many spells/and abilities you can use in any single battle, perhaps leveling skills will kinda like be leveling a sub job. Where some mages will level Cure for if its needed.
Ultimately, who knows how it will work for sure till we get to play.
And if elemental spells are useful for damage dealing, and the best ones require the mage to not be able to focus on specializing heal magic, then there will always be a variety.
#39 Mar 12 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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So I admit, I didn't read this whole thread. But gamers tend to gravitate towards Damage Dealing roles because it's "awesomer" to kill stuff than to heal your friends. (explanation totally a joke, end result is real though.) So yeah, healers will always be in higher demand than DDers because they're more rare. If one class (Conjurer) can do both DD and heal (but not simultaneously) then of course the healing Conjurers will have higher invite rates that DDing Conjurers. Thats no different than WHMs getting more invites than DRKs. Just change WHM for "Healing Conjurer" and DRK for "DD Conjurer".

So in short, if you "spec" for DD Conjurer, expect typical DD invites. If you are a healing Conjurer, expect typical healer invites.
#40 Mar 12 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Exactly.
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#41 Mar 12 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong, I could swear up and down in a court of law that I read it somewhere recently.


You're right. I saw it somewhere as well. I am very excited about this, maybe Rangers can be semi healers.
#42 Mar 12 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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This?

Quote:

Iwao: Arrow selection is also key. It's more than just choosing the arrow with the most damage, an Archer can also use arrows to effect the status of the enemy or even support their allies




Quote:

So in short, if you "spec" for DD Conjurer, expect typical DD invites. If you are a healing Conjurer, expect typical healer invites.


I don't think anybody's contesting that a healer class will probably be in more demand than several DPS. It's whether the power of the healing spells is so high that all the other potential in the class will be rendered useless because groups are crippled without a dedicated healer. It's not necessarily a given that dedicated healing is going to be as insanely sought after as it was in XI. It could be less of a 'bread and butter', and more of a 'it's nice if you have it'.

In the sense of "you could always solo", in the sense of "people's defensive capabilities are so potent the proper application of them could have you do without a dedicated healer", in the sense of "abilities and spells of inactive classes can be used on active ones so everyone can have a certain degree of self sustainability they use for solo play that can be fallen on in a pinch for group play", in the sense of "if we weren't given a dedicated healing class it's very possible it's because we don't need one", in the sense of "HP recovery mode between battles creates a ceiling of mp effectiveness that means your probably better off using that TP for a nuke around the end of a fight than topping someone off with a heal, and this remains so functionally consistent hybrid healers are actually more efficient than dedicated ones"...



Edited, Mar 13th 2010 12:16am by Zemzelette
#43 Mar 12 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Default
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Iwao: Arrow selection is also key. It's more than just choosing the arrow with the most damage, an Archer can also use arrows to effect the status of the enemy or even support their allies


No, the one I remember stated archer, arrow, and healing in the same sentence. I'm sure of that much.
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#44 Mar 12 2010 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
Iwao: Arrow selection is also key. It's more than just choosing the arrow with the most damage, an Archer can also use arrows to effect the status of the enemy or even support their allies


No, the one I remember stated archer, arrow, and healing in the same sentence. I'm sure of that much.


they keep referring to archer as the "lone wolf" class and other adjectives that mention it being loner like and solo friendly.

This leads me to believe a curing arrow might be in the cards. Either that or they are just calling it a loner class because it stands SO FAR BACK that they never have anyone to talk to.
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#45 Mar 12 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Default
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Just see it as a blackmage and whitemage, or so called future scholar, nothing different.
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#46 Mar 13 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
So in short, if you "spec" for DD Conjurer, expect typical DD invites. If you are a healing Conjurer, expect typical healer invites.

Unfortunately that isn't how it works out in practice. Classes that can heal will be expected to heal, almost always.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 12:11am by Allegory
#47 Mar 13 2010 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
Louiscool wrote:
Raymund wrote:

Please god stop saying dps.

No.

Oh, do you mean as a description for a damage dealer or damage per second? Either way, it's a common term so expect to see it.


No, it's a WoW term. It just happens that many people played WoW. Doesn't mean it's a common term.


No, it's an acronym that sees common usage in a number of MMOs. I really do suggest that you get used to it.

Quote:
I would wager that half to most of the players in FFXIV will be from FFXI (even if they played WoW at some point), thus DPS will not be a "common term."


It will likely be just as (if not more) common as "DD". If you're going to get hung up on a simple term, you're going to have a very miserable time in FFXIV.

Quote:
But WoW was a skill spam game. FFXI was not. I believe WoW had some way to tell you your damage per second and if it didn't I know there was at least a plugin. FFXI did not.

FFXIV won't be about spamming skills, given that you're using some vision of an ATB/TP bar and not 500 abilities on a cooldown. So don't "expect to see it."


Just...stop. Please. Exaggerations don't help your argument and the combat system in FFXIV is shaping up to be as similar to that of WoW as it is to FFXI. Like it or not, if you opt to play FFXIV you're going to be sharing a new game with a lot of people with varied MMO backgrounds and if you think for even half a second that they're going to happily tolerate being expected to observe FFXI terminology conventions, you're in for a disappointment.
#48 Mar 13 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Default
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Conjurer hopeful is similar to rdm/whm... as I understand Conjurer = elements skill up so ill skill up 2 elements that give me enf.. spell and cure(ga) spell.. to be as rdm/whm or rdm/blm which is the most job I liked in FFxi
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#49 Mar 13 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Well guys come to think of it, Since classes the War classes does have the ability to heal themselves a little, I don;t see why we need 100% healbots.
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#50 Mar 13 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
Humster wrote:
Well guys come to think of it, Since classes the War classes does have the ability to heal themselves a little, I don;t see why we need 100% healbots.


Not every class has been announced to have a self heal and it's a pretty safe bet in group content that they aren't going to be expected to stand around and heal themselves...especially the tank(s). There's no reason to believe that there won't be group content that will require dedicated healing roles. Hybridization is best in a solo environment...in groups, the group is the hybrid and typically requires people to focus on specialized roles.
#51 Mar 13 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
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621 posts
Louiscool wrote:


they keep referring to archer as the "lone wolf" class and other adjectives that mention it being loner like and solo friendly.

This leads me to believe a curing arrow might be in the cards. Either that or they are just calling it a loner class because it stands SO FAR BACK that they never have anyone to talk to.


? So you foresee achers shooting themselves with curing arrows? How are you gonna hit yourself with an arrow? Shot straight up in the sky?

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 9:08am by insanekangaroo
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Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
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