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Archer - Hopes and Fears...Follow

#1 Mar 12 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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...of all the classes, Archer looks like the class I'll be going for, who else feels the same? Any opinions on this class from what we know so far?
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#2 Mar 12 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks like they are keeping the ideals they tried to change ranger into.

Rangers were meleeing and shooting for tp, so they nerfed it, then they added in the sweet spot dmg, then they unnerfed it a slight bit, then they added velocity shot that increased melee delay in exchange for faster and more powerful ranged shots.


I HOPE they make it how they originally wanted instead of all these band-aids. I also HOPE they make a ranged accuracy formula that isnt broken. Melees in XI could wear maybe 20 accuracy in gear and hit 85%. I have 4 accuracy traits and +50 r.acc in gear and I'm hitting less than them?

/exaggeration

I fear I'm gonna be bleeding out the nose for arrows again though ;;
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#3 Mar 12 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, Im looking forward to this, and blacksmithing as well. I agree with the above statement, if its gnna be ridiciously needed range acc like in XI to hit a target, not goin for it. Melee jobs didnt realy need acc gear and hit fine, ranger would have acc gear which took away from other traits that were useful and still missed. Forcing to use subs and currys.
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#4 Mar 12 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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im going to have to say my biggest fear is that they wont be as viable in groups with how they keep talking about them as a good class for solo'ers. I really would like to see them pull through as a more versitiale class with cheaper or more easily obtainable elemental arrows with a good elemental attribution damage calculation formula. So then maybe with the multiple shots they could actually make due as a backup for a mage if you couldnt manage to find a mage you were looking for.
#5 Mar 12 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I had fun with rng in ffxi until they nerfed it. After the nerf I couldn't stand dealing with the whole find the sweet spot crap, so I stopped lvling it at about 55 iirc. Anyways, what I always hoped they would do is have said sweet spot anywhere outside of melee range. Would have helped for when you steal hate so the melee don't have to chase the mob too far, and still fixes melee and ranged attacks for tp building.

If they could do anything like that in FFXIV I just might play the class, but that would be too simple :/
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#6 Mar 12 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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I will be going archer as well, and feel that it will be incredibly customizable. It seems they are really trying to make this a job involving more strategy then the others. We have to focus on distance, and with parties supposedly much more active and nomadic, it adds the difficulty of adjusting your position with each battle. I have a feeling stat arrows will play a much more important role this time around, and we will be counted on for numerous roles in a party. The addition of party vs. party battles means we will probably be kiting in regular EXP parties more often, as well as constantly moving around trying to find the sweet spot for different enemies. I really hope that if we focus on a certain element enough, our arrows could possibly glow a certain color depending on the element.

Perhaps the most intriguing aspect is the arrows with healing properties, which would give Archers the role of a support job of de-buffing and healing, like a RDM. Besides that, I like the stealthy elements added and really hope that we have quivers and that our bows will be visible when we aren't fighting mobs. Arrows will be expensive, but I will most likely be taking up a little crafting to make my own arrows.
#7 Mar 12 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
The most difficult thing to predict is how Square's vision for this job works juxtaposed to how the player base thinks it will work. In FFXI we made Ninjas tank and Beastmen solo. I have no doubt that people will take this job and make into what they want, if you can shoot on the run and have endless arrows it would be an awesome class.
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#8 Mar 13 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Default
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From the post above of elemental arrows, it can be just like any other game with elemental arrows. Blue ice arrows with a small ice burst, arrow on fire, a lightning arrow that sparks on impact. a green arrow for poison which might leave a small trail of smoke (acid) and so forth.
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#9 Mar 13 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
ragamuffin, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
The most difficult thing to predict is how Square's vision for this job works juxtaposed to how the player base thinks it will work. In FFXI we made Ninjas tank and Beastmen solo. I have no doubt that people will take this job and make into what they want, if you can shoot on the run and have endless arrows it would be an awesome class.


It will also be begging for some attention from the nerf bat. High damage + high survivability (the two components that have to be held in a proper balance in order to be labeled an effective solo class in any MMO) have to come at a price or the segment of players who are only interested in being uber at all costs will flock to the class and you end up with an imbalanced population. We saw it in FFXI, I've seen it in WoW, and it's generally accepted that if you make a class too good all around, sooner or later it's going to have to be nerfed.
#10 Mar 13 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
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from what ive read, i think that the archer as a class might be about biding time and using arrows only at the most opportune occasions. It would seem that the number of arrows we can bring is limited (with the devs giving us various skills to replenish them) and also craftable arrows. so the choice of which arrow to bring and when to use them would be critical. it would probably be less about keeping a steady stream of arrows going at the target. and more about rationing the ammo you have, which arrow to use and using them when it would hit the hardest/be of the most effect.

my greatest fear however, is that they make crossbows and guns for archers. it. just. wouldn't. make. sense. we're archers.


also what do they mean by the term "shortstop" which was used to described the archer's role in a party? is it a baseball reference?



Edited, Mar 13th 2010 4:52am by Eithelas
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#11 Mar 13 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I fear I'm gonna be bleeding out the nose for arrows again though ;;


I dunno if it'll be as bad as FFXI had it were every single piece of ammo had to be bought and was terribly expensive. From what I understood in the latest update was that you can actually buy the ammo but the job itself will still have a kind of default ammunition. Able to use it for mediocre damage? Or perhaps the pre-purchased ammo can administer status aliments.

Just speculating!

What I'd like to see is the ability to regain some of the ammo from the fallen enemy the way the mages can suck out MP from corpses.

Quote:
my greatest fear however, is that they make crossbows and guns for archers. it. just. wouldn't. make. sense. we're archers.


I think they already said crossbows wouldn't be in this and that they would in-fact go to another job.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 5:20am by akelah
#12 Mar 13 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Good
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Sloannn wrote:
I will be going archer as well, and feel that it will be incredibly customizable. It seems they are really trying to make this a job involving more strategy then the others. We have to focus on distance, and with parties supposedly much more active and nomadic, it adds the difficulty of adjusting your position with each battle. I have a feeling stat arrows will play a much more important role this time around, and we will be counted on for numerous roles in a party. The addition of party vs. party battles means we will probably be kiting in regular EXP parties more often, as well as constantly moving around trying to find the sweet spot for different enemies. I really hope that if we focus on a certain element enough, our arrows could possibly glow a certain color depending on the element.

Perhaps the most intriguing aspect is the arrows with healing properties, which would give Archers the role of a support job of de-buffing and healing, like a RDM. Besides that, I like the stealthy elements added and really hope that we have quivers and that our bows will be visible when we aren't fighting mobs. Arrows will be expensive, but I will most likely be taking up a little crafting to make my own arrows.


Great post.

I too am going with archer as of now, a pet class would be the only thing to change that.

I really like how they are expanding upon the RNG's role with the use of arrows. However, out of all the classes Archer seems to be "Missing something". Perhaps if the capability of an archer to debuff targets is further explored it would solve that. Or perhaps adding a secondary ability that benefits the party such as evasion and accuracy bonuses. If you look at the diagram we would be the farthest out in terms of the action, so in reality there needs to be something else there to contribute from missing out. If you have played a Ranged class in any other MMO you can understand what I am saying by that, shooting at stuff from afar gets boring after awhile.

I suspect that there is more to the class than meets the eye at this point. I only hope they provide some other outlet than just mashing 1 and 2.

What is really interesting is that if you look at the abilities and the short dev input you can get an idea of what you may encounter while playing an Archer.

Quote:
Archer Abilities
Replenish: Fire off multiple arrows at one time (the description says all of your arrows)
Chameleon: Erase your presence to avoid detection
Stride: Be able to move quickly for a short period of time
Retrieval: Gather up arrows in exchange for some HP
Hawkeye: Increase the accuracy of your next attack

Weapon Skills
Shadow Stitch: Bind the enemy
Wide Volley: Attack your target and other enemies around it
Quick Knock: Use multiple arrows in rapid succession to attack enemies in a fan like AoE attack
Snakebite Arrow: Attack and remove enhancing magic from the enemy
Shrieker: Attack the enemy and cause it to retreat

Most of the abilities seem to be aimed at allowing you to get at range distance. Out of the 10 abilities listed only 1 of them is a debuff (Snakebite arrow). So the assumption here is that it really is the arrows that do the debuffing, not the skills. Makes you wonder if there is more to be seen.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 4:30am by patient
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#13 Mar 13 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant Scholar wrote:

It will also be begging for some attention from the nerf bat. High damage + high survivability (the two components that have to be held in a proper balance in order to be labeled an effective solo class in any MMO) have to come at a price or the segment of players who are only interested in being uber at all costs will flock to the class and you end up with an imbalanced population. We saw it in FFXI, I've seen it in WoW, and it's generally accepted that if you make a class too good all around, sooner or later it's going to have to be nerfed.


The Archer class is still weak physically which makes me think that considerable finesse will be required to master it, most MMOs are not that balanced the first few months after release so I expect quite a few adjustments. Yes, indeed people do flock to uber classes, already people are gravitating toward conjurer and lancer but I expect this will even out in the end.

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#14 Mar 13 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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I remember playing SAM/RNG pre-nerf ... good god was the TP gain and sidewinder damage / frequency incredible. I only wish we could have had Seigan before the nerf for all the times SAM/RNG pulled hate lol.
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#15 Mar 13 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
ragamuffin, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:

The Archer class is still weak physically which makes me think that considerable finesse will be required to master it, most MMOs are not that balanced the first few months after release so I expect quite a few adjustments. Yes, indeed people do flock to uber classes, already people are gravitating toward conjurer and lancer but I expect this will even out in the end.



That's why being able to fire on the move would be potentially class breaking. If you're physically weak but can kite and pump out damage all day long, the only thing that is going to give you a hard time is a mob with a ranged snare/root or proximity aggro from things you didn't see because you were looking somewhere else while you were running. Unlimited ammunition could also be potentially class-breaking because there has to be some sort of balancing aspect to high damage ranged classes to dissuade people who are only wanting to be uber with the fewest possible strings attached. Casters have mana/MP. It's great that SE is giving Archers an option to recover some of their ammunition and could be a good scaling tool that allows SE to adjust the rate of ammunition consumption without coming up with stupid ideas like (example only) one arrow hitting (and damaging) 5 targets.
#16 Mar 13 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Most of the abilities seem to be aimed at allowing you to get at range distance. Out of the 10 abilities listed only 1 of them is a debuff (Snakebite arrow). So the assumption here is that it really is the arrows that do the debuffing, not the skills. Makes you wonder if there is more to be seen.


I just wanted to say that the NA page has better translations, and some of the abilities and weapon skills were completely lost in translation. I've updated the "Classes compiled" topic for archer already if you want to see them.
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#17 Mar 13 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

If you look at the first screenshot on the site now (with the lizard monsters) you can see a map of the area in the upper right of the screen. The terrain looks pretty distinct here, and makes me think that Archers may be expected to take advantage of locations that are somewhat inaccessible to the enemy.
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#18 Mar 14 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Decent
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patient wrote:
Sloannn wrote:
I will be going archer as well, and feel that it will be incredibly customizable. It seems they are really trying to make this a job involving more strategy then the others. We have to focus on distance, and with parties supposedly much more active and nomadic, it adds the difficulty of adjusting your position with each battle. I have a feeling stat arrows will play a much more important role this time around, and we will be counted on for numerous roles in a party. The addition of party vs. party battles means we will probably be kiting in regular EXP parties more often, as well as constantly moving around trying to find the sweet spot for different enemies. I really hope that if we focus on a certain element enough, our arrows could possibly glow a certain color depending on the element.

Perhaps the most intriguing aspect is the arrows with healing properties, which would give Archers the role of a support job of de-buffing and healing, like a RDM. Besides that, I like the stealthy elements added and really hope that we have quivers and that our bows will be visible when we aren't fighting mobs. Arrows will be expensive, but I will most likely be taking up a little crafting to make my own arrows.


Great post.

I too am going with archer as of now, a pet class would be the only thing to change that.

I really like how they are expanding upon the RNG's role with the use of arrows. However, out of all the classes Archer seems to be "Missing something". Perhaps if the capability of an archer to debuff targets is further explored it would solve that. Or perhaps adding a secondary ability that benefits the party such as evasion and accuracy bonuses. If you look at the diagram we would be the farthest out in terms of the action, so in reality there needs to be something else there to contribute from missing out. If you have played a Ranged class in any other MMO you can understand what I am saying by that, shooting at stuff from afar gets boring after awhile.

I suspect that there is more to the class than meets the eye at this point. I only hope they provide some other outlet than just mashing 1 and 2.

What is really interesting is that if you look at the abilities and the short dev input you can get an idea of what you may encounter while playing an Archer.

Quote:
Archer Abilities
Replenish: Fire off multiple arrows at one time (the description says all of your arrows)
Chameleon: Erase your presence to avoid detection
Stride: Be able to move quickly for a short period of time
Retrieval: Gather up arrows in exchange for some HP
Hawkeye: Increase the accuracy of your next attack

Weapon Skills
Shadow Stitch: Bind the enemy
Wide Volley: Attack your target and other enemies around it
Quick Knock: Use multiple arrows in rapid succession to attack enemies in a fan like AoE attack
Snakebite Arrow: Attack and remove enhancing magic from the enemy
Shrieker: Attack the enemy and cause it to retreat

Most of the abilities seem to be aimed at allowing you to get at range distance. Out of the 10 abilities listed only 1 of them is a debuff (Snakebite arrow). So the assumption here is that it really is the arrows that do the debuffing, not the skills. Makes you wonder if there is more to be seen.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 4:30am by patient




I went to FFXIV site and read the abilities, replenish is different in the site
it says "Replenish: Invoke a blessing of renewal, consuming mp to replenish your projectiles to capacity"
#19 Mar 14 2010 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Eabaud wrote:

I went to FFXIV site and read the abilities, replenish is different in the site
it says "Replenish: Invoke a blessing of renewal, consuming mp to replenish your projectiles to capacity"


Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I think I'll trust the official description. It fits the definition of "replenish." Firing off all your arrows is the OPPOSITE of "replenish."
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#20 Mar 14 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I also wonder what Ashkin is. Probably a type of monster?
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#21 Mar 14 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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in one of the interviews, i read that apparently one of the crafting professions may allow your archer to craft some arrows. but i cant seem to find where i read it from but im pretty sure i read it.

anyway, just speculating here, arrows would seem to be limited in supply for the archer, which is also why i believe they seem to be emphasing on the archers "alternate attack" for when they run out of arrows. and replenish (using hp to resupply) and the scavenge like ability ( which uses mp to restock arrows).
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#22 Mar 14 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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my greatest fear however, is that they make crossbows and guns for archers. it. just. wouldn't. make. sense. we're archers.


also what do they mean by the term "shortstop" which was used to described the archer's role in a party? is it a baseball reference?


In one of the interviews they've said that if xbows are added to the game, archers will most likely not be getting them. If they're too good to xbows I doubt an archer will do something as gauche as pick up a pistol or a rifle. Though there was mention of guncrafting as an advance style of blacksmithing. Hopefully they reincarnate Corsairs as the gun-wielders.

As for shortstop, the wiki defination of it is, "Shortstop is often regarded as the most dynamic defensive position in baseball, because there are more right-handed hitters in baseball than left-handed hitters, and most hitters have a tendency to pull the ball slightly, so more balls go to the shortstop than any other position."

I'm guessing they just mean that since Archers have the longest range they have to pay attention to what's going on and change tactics fast.


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#23 Mar 14 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Eithelas wrote:
in one of the interviews, i read that apparently one of the crafting professions may allow your archer to craft some arrows. but i cant seem to find where i read it from but im pretty sure i read it.



It's from the Dengeki interview. Here ya go:

Quote:
- Can Archers make arrows by themselves?

A: Only Disciples of the Hand will be able to make arrows. However, in the future, by putting abilities from a Disciple of the Hand on an Archer, they could attain some limited crafting ability.


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#24 Mar 15 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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I am really excited for this class. Archery is always my favorite form of attacking in RPGs, for sure, and what prompted me to start ranged back in 03 on FFXI. I've stuck with it all these years, despite the changes, but as someone pointed out earlier, it sure would be nice if they had just designed it right from the start.

FF14's archer seems like it's headed in the right direction. A ranger SHOULD be able to control distance from enemies, since that's what it's about. It needs to be one step ahead, and needs to have mastery over movement and the terrain. A wide variety of abilities to help that is very, very welcome, and I am excited to see this sampling they gave us so far.
The idea that it could expand it's role through ammunition is also an excellent one. FF11's ranger allowed this, but in a very limited way. With things like defense down, attack down, blind, silence, sleep, and other things, they let the ranger have some more abilities... but it didn't get worked on very much. They really coulda expanded that a lot and/or implemented it better.
A shot-by-shot debuff is not a good idea in a game like 11, especially with the broken accuracy issues.

Have the ability to buff and debuff with shots, though, is genius, and I like that they plan to keep with with. And since ranged attacks are actually being designed as a form of attack and part of the system rather than a strange gap-stretching afterthought like in 11, they could do things right from the start. It's very exciting. :D

(Only problem here... where's scavenge? How will I ever be able to find my insect wings once every 5 minutes in FF14?! :( )
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#25 Mar 15 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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My best bud really wanted to lay ranger back at NA release, but when he unlocked it, very quickly he realized that it was going to be too expensive for him since neither of us really knew how to make money at even a decent rate.

I really hope it's not nearly as bad in XIV when it comes to Archer's expenses. I have a feeling he's going to want that an Elezen Archer as either his main or secondary.
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#26 Mar 15 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just glad that they added visible quivers.
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#27 Mar 15 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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And visible bows while in passive mode!
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#28 Mar 15 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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That always annoyed me not being able to see the bow hehe.
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#29 Mar 15 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Ashkin is probably undead. while Seedkin (which is refered to in Marauders skills) are probably plants. ie: our lovely mandragoras. lol
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#30 Mar 15 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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woah! thanks. lol my eagle eye was on it's 2hour cooldown. lol.

wonder what difference will there be between crafted ammo and the ammo your pick up through replensih(MP for Ammo)/retrieval(HP for ammo). Reckon the ammo will be a generic number of shots you can fire, while your weapon skills/abilities determine what kind of arrows they are; or will the ammo themselves be the specific kind of arrows you are firing? (ie: you need to craft snakebite arrows to use the snakebite skill)

one speculation of mine would be that there might be a generic plain bread and butter arrows, while crafted version could have some sort of elemental affinity which would play into the whole elemental wheel etc.


if they say "by putting abilities from a Disciple of the Hand on an Archer, they could attain some limited crafting ability." means it's almost like allocating a specific skill from a disciple of hand class into your archer. (like a subjob) does that mean we can choose skills over a variety of classes to customise our character? i wonder what is the limit on this?
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#31 Mar 15 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
Eithelas wrote:
if they say "by putting abilities from a Disciple of the Hand on an Archer, they could attain some limited crafting ability." means it's almost like allocating a specific skill from a disciple of hand class into your archer. (like a subjob) does that mean we can choose skills over a variety of classes to customise our character? i wonder what is the limit on this?


It was announced several months ago that you would be able to learn skills from one class and "equip" them on another. The exact implementation and what limitations there may be are yet to be seen.
#32 Mar 30 2010 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure if anyone spotted / noticed before but at 0:47 the elezen female starts to do a turn and raises bow, at 0:49 the Puk gets hit by a ball of fire- after which the Puk makes a b-line to the archer.

I do believe this is might actually be an archer weapon skill? Flaming arrow perhaps.

(excuse my watching of 1 year old videos to satisfy my ffxiv cravings)
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#33 Mar 30 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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VayMasters wrote:
My best bud really wanted to lay ranger back at NA release, but when he unlocked it, very quickly he realized that it was going to be too expensive for him since neither of us really knew how to make money at even a decent rate.

I really hope it's not nearly as bad in XIV when it comes to Archer's expenses. I have a feeling he's going to want that an Elezen Archer as either his main or secondary.


I have to agree on this. I hope people are not punished on the monetary side just because they happen to like playing ranged classes.

Personally I want to play a gun wielding class if anything (if anything rangeresque that is), which like it has been mentioned already doesn't really go with the whole "Archer" class theme, so I will try something else I believe, but it definitely sounds like an interesting class.
#34 Mar 30 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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From SEs description of spells/abilites, it seems very very reminecent of the Ranger calss in EQOA on the PS2 (which is to this day my favorite MMORPG)
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#35 Mar 31 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Decent
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From the sound of it, they're going to make it like a hybrid of Hunter and Archer, which is what I always thought XI's Ranger SHOULD have been, but wasn't.

Moves that scare away mobs INSTANTLY makes me think of Hunter's Oust. Hopefully they'll be able to interact with Beasts in more interesting ways than Ranger ever did.


I also hope they include Traps. Traps were a good concept, but always poorly implemented. If they were akin to how Hunter's in WoW used them though, they could be really neat.
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#36 Mar 31 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't get when people say "I'm going to go Archer, etc". Don't you want to try out all the classes first before you stick to one? Personally I will be testing out every combination I can before I stick to just one race, clan and class for the journey to endgame (whatever that will involve).
As for Archer, from what I have seen and read they will have just bows to begin with, no x-bows or guns and its been hinted at those weapons would go to another class (recent dengeki games interview?) that would be a shame.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 2:08pm by NumptyHunter
#37 Mar 31 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe they just have plans to use other ranged type weapons for different classes. Guns could very easily be used to define a class that resembles Fusilier/Gunner. Crossbows could be used for a more "Marksman" type class, more akin to XI's Ranger. Throwing weapons will probably define Ninja, since one of Ninja's trademark skills throughout the Final Fantasy series was Throw.




I remember in Tactics, they had two different bow classes, bow and greatbow. Greatbow was the signature of hunters, while Assassins, Snipers, and Archers all used the normal bows. They could also adopt this system.
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