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#1 Mar 13 2010 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I like when in an interview a Dev tells you a fact, then in a post below it people ask about it. Like they just didn't read what was said. For example: If you can attack while running? When they just read that a Pug can. I just think its funny how people can't read an interview.

I'll coast through an interview then reread it to understand what i just read. But hay thats just me.
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#2 Mar 13 2010 at 2:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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You are not good at ranting.
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#3 Mar 13 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
insanekangaroo wrote:
You are not good at ranting.


Valid point, though. Kind of makes a person shake their head that people can still be confused about simple details we've had access to for months now. This thread is a pretty decent example. I mean...really? How can someone still be asking questions about that stuff?
#4 Mar 13 2010 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
You are not good at ranting.


Valid point, though. Kind of makes a person shake their head that people can still be confused about simple details we've had access to for months now. This thread is a pretty decent example. I mean...really? How can someone still be asking questions about that stuff?


Yeah that thread hurt to read, but the OP did have a valid point to some degree.

I think there are two problems at hand:

!) Many people are still approaching FFXIV as FFXI players, thus judging different aspects of new game mechanics based upon a 7 year experience in another game.

2) Square Enix has released information about different aspects of FFXIV, but has not established any foundation for people to apply that too. The new Classes, the New Systems of gameplay, they are difficult to interpret without a landscape to apply it to, other than a few "Shakeycam" videos of the Alpha.

I have found it easier to understand what is going on when I actively explored FFXIV as a new MMO, unrelated to FFXI at all. If you leave yoru FFXI experience behind it makes it a bit easier to get the broader picuter of what is going on. Much of which I am still on the fence about.
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#5 Mar 13 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
patient wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
You are not good at ranting.


Valid point, though. Kind of makes a person shake their head that people can still be confused about simple details we've had access to for months now. This thread is a pretty decent example. I mean...really? How can someone still be asking questions about that stuff?


Yeah that thread hurt to read, but the OP did have a valid point to some degree.

I think there are two problems at hand:

!) Many people are still approaching FFXIV as FFXI players, thus judging different aspects of new game mechanics based upon a 7 year experience in another game.


I don't think there are two reasons. I think there is one reason and it's the one I quoted here. The longer people keep insisting that all things FFXIV must be compared to FFXI to determine not only what will work but also what is or isn't feasible, the longer they're going to be making dumb statements and asking dumb questions (which, in this case, falls under the auspices of a "dumb question" when it's a question that has been answered in plain language in widely publicized releases from SE).
#6 Mar 13 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Default
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My original post was ment as, SE said this was going to be what the job does. and people ask what does that job do?
...... SE just said what it does so why ask? I understand speculation about certain things but, come on. Pug is going to have steal.... Umm is pug going to be able to steal? It's not that hard read the info the Dev's give and if it's unclear then speculate and ask questions but comprehend what you just read.

I hope thats a better Rant for ya :)
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#7 Mar 13 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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It pretty much comes down to laziness and lack of reading comprehension. This is a problem becoming inherently prevalent in our society lately. Instead of going out and gathering information for themselves, people take the lazy way and rely on others to supply it to them. When ideas are presented, people do not read thoroughly, and just grab the bits that are somehow important to them instead of attempting to grasp the big picture. I encounter this every day at work and then hop on the internet and see it everywhere. It really can be quite frightening at times when someone cannot understand a simple piece of information presented at a 4th grade reading level.

Instead of going out and reading the dev interviews, people will just post questions on a forum expecting to be answered, and when pointed to the information they're looking for, get offended because it wasn't handed to them on a silver platter. I don't think it's a matter of approaching the information from the PoV of a FFXI player or looking at FFXIV as a new MMO, but that it's a matter of laziness and a sense of entitlement that has become pervasive and destructive.

#8 Mar 13 2010 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Serielley wrote:
It pretty much comes down to laziness and lack of reading comprehension. This is a problem becoming inherently prevalent in our society lately. Instead of going out and gathering information for themselves, people take the lazy way and rely on others to supply it to them. When ideas are presented, people do not read thoroughly, and just grab the bits that are somehow important to them instead of attempting to grasp the big picture. I encounter this every day at work and then hop on the internet and see it everywhere. It really can be quite frightening at times when someone cannot understand a simple piece of information presented at a 4th grade reading level.

Instead of going out and reading the dev interviews, people will just post questions on a forum expecting to be answered, and when pointed to the information they're looking for, get offended because it wasn't handed to them on a silver platter. I don't think it's a matter of approaching the information from the PoV of a FFXI player or looking at FFXIV as a new MMO, but that it's a matter of laziness and a sense of entitlement that has become pervasive and destructive.


Oh please... Laziness is corrupting our society? First, it's wrong, productivity has never been higher, and second, sharing of knowledge is becoming increasingly important for development of wealth and prosperity. So it's all good and well. ^^

On the subject:
I think you misunderstand the whole purpose of a forum like this one. If everyone just went out and got all the info from the interwebs themselves, there would be nothing to discuss. Also, SE is never totally clear in what they say, and so it can be interpreted different by different people.
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#9 Mar 13 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It really can be quite frightening at times when someone cannot understand a simple piece of information presented at a 4th grade reading level.


My fiance teaches at the college level and has said this exact sentence at the end of a long day, lol.

And it's less reading comprehension and more lazy. Speaking for myself I read at a very high level, but only when it's really important, then I guess I can waste precious calories moving my eyes.
#10 Mar 13 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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insanekangaroo wrote:


Oh please... Laziness is corrupting our society? First, it's wrong, productivity has never been higher, and second, sharing of knowledge is becoming increasingly important for development of wealth and prosperity. So it's all good and well. ^^

On the subject:
I think you misunderstand the whole purpose of a forum like this one. If everyone just went out and got all the info from the interwebs themselves, there would be nothing to discuss. Also, SE is never totally clear in what they say, and so it can be interpreted different by different people.


From where I'm sitting it is. There's a whole argument I could get into here about entitlement, laziness, and a growing apathy towards education, but this isn't the Asylum, so I won't. Sure, sharing of knowledge is easier than ever thanks to the internet, but that does not mean that everyone participates in the sharing of knowledge. For the most part, people have grown accustomed to having their information spoon fed to them, which leads to a sense of entitlement and growing laziness. A large number of people will just blindly listen to or read information posted on a website or broadcast on their television and call it good instead of going out and verifying sources and bringing together opposing viewpoints to truly understand an issue or piece of information.

As for misunderstanding the purpose of the forums, I think I understand them quite well. They exist as a place where people can come and talk about their favorite games and other topics. Some of that discussion may consist of questions. However, when I see topics posted over and over again about how people want PvP in FFXIV, or if XIV will use PlayOnline, or any multitude of other questions that have definitively been answered and are easily accessible at any number of websites... How is that not laziness and a prime example of what I'm talking about? How is the fact that the devs have stated clearly and definitively that there will be no PvP except for Ballista type activities unclear on Squenix's part?

We have recieved a lot of information about FFXIV, information that makes a lot of things quite clear, provided you read the information. People like Elmer have worked hard to bring that information to us here at ZAM, but people just don't bother looking at it. Laziness. If everyone paid attention to the information that has been provided, we would still be able to have conversations here, discussing the information, which is usually how things work.
#11 Mar 13 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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I don't like seeing "When is this game going to be released" or "Did the beta start yet" threads any more than the next guy, but it seems like they're an inevitability. Common sense ought to dictate that people should first check the FFXIV official site, or at least, the available FFXIV Wikibase that's stickied right at the top of the forum here before asking questions that have readily available answers, but that's never stopped 'em before.

Best thing you can do is just be patient and answer the question while referring them to the available information outlets. I mean, it's an internet forum: there isn't a shortage of space available, and if you're not interested in helping, it's easy enough to ignore the question. This is all assuming that the question is phrased politely, of course.
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#12 Mar 13 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Its just the way Forums are people would sooner start a new thread and ask than take the time to search for the information themselves.

Lazy ?? well yes it is, ideally people wouldn't answer them and they may actually have to do the work themselves.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 11:15am by Diakar
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#13 Mar 13 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
I don't like seeing "When is this game going to be released" or "Did the beta start yet" threads any more than the next guy, but it seems like they're an inevitability. Common sense ought to dictate that people should first check the FFXIV official site, or at least, the available FFXIV Wikibase that's stickied right at the top of the forum here before asking questions that have readily available answers, but that's never stopped 'em before.

Best thing you can do is just be patient and answer the question while referring them to the available information outlets. I mean, it's an internet forum: there isn't a shortage of space available, and if you're not interested in helping, it's easy enough to ignore the question. This is all assuming that the question is phrased politely, of course.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Slap him silly with that fish and he'll stop asking for it.
#14 Mar 13 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't like seeing "When is this game going to be released" or "Did the beta start yet" threads any more than the next guy, but it seems like they're an inevitability. Common sense ought to dictate that people should first check the FFXIV official site, or at least, the available FFXIV Wikibase that's stickied right at the top of the forum here before asking questions that have readily available answers, but that's never stopped 'em before.


you would think people would do that. I have seen a lot of topic like that and even on some games main forum.
before you even get to the forum you would think people would spend lets say the 5min and read the site.
I suppose its easy just to post a question
#15 Mar 13 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Eske wrote:
I don't like seeing "When is this game going to be released" or "Did the beta start yet" threads any more than the next guy, but it seems like they're an inevitability. Common sense ought to dictate that people should first check the FFXIV official site, or at least, the available FFXIV Wikibase that's stickied right at the top of the forum here before asking questions that have readily available answers, but that's never stopped 'em before.

Best thing you can do is just be patient and answer the question while referring them to the available information outlets. I mean, it's an internet forum: there isn't a shortage of space available, and if you're not interested in helping, it's easy enough to ignore the question. This is all assuming that the question is phrased politely, of course.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Slap him silly with that fish and he'll stop asking for it.


Hope your fish-slapping arm is limbered up, because you'll have to offer that same treatment again and again to each subsequent person that asks.

Non fish-slapping version: I'd agree with you, but this is rarely an issue with repeat offenders. It's always a new guy with 1 post to his name coming in and asking when the game is going to be released. Telling each and every one of them off and lamenting how lazy people have become is an exercise in futility.
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#16 Mar 13 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
Hope your fish-slapping arm is limbered up, because you'll have to offer that same treatment again and again to each subsequent person that asks.

Non fish-slapping version: I'd agree with you, but this is rarely an issue with repeat offenders. It's always a new guy with 1 post to his name coming in and asking when the game is going to be released. Telling each and every one of them off and lamenting how lazy people have become is an exercise in futility.


The one-post wonders showing up and asking questions that have been answered ad nausea are one thing. I frequently pass those threads over altogether and leave them for other people to respond to. The new threads started by people whom you know have been around for a while and have even tried to argue from an "informed" point of view are another matter altogether. It's grimly satisfying when someone argues with you over some particular detail and then tips their hand to their generalized ignorance later on. At that point, my fish swinging arm is not the concern...whether or not I can do an adequate job before the fish disintegrates becomes the real issue.
#17 Mar 13 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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What the ****? Man, I got all cozy with a cup of tea ready to read what was to be the next epic post only to be let down!? Your rant fails.


The problem with the dev interviews is not always people not reading or comprehending and then asking stupid questions. Ok sometimes it is, but before you even get that far you have to realize that you have developers who are supposed to be hush hush about alot of elements of this game. Thats why I wish we wouldn't get halfass info and explanations about interface, abilities and whatever else they don't want to spill the whole sack of beans on.

The other thing that gets in the way of comprehension is translation. It even confuses most of the japanese speaking/reading folks we have here on zam. Vague and often garbled information does not translate well. I myself asked if you could attack while running. After reading that you need to build power for your attacks and that moving cancels this effect, who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running. It may be about a specific ability, but that often times is not specified. If you read these interviews too literally you could easily make the same mistake.
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#18 Mar 13 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I myself asked if you could attack while running. After reading that you need to build power for your attacks and that moving cancels this effect, who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running. It may be about a specific ability, but that often times is not specified. If you read these interviews too literally you could easily make the same mistake.


I understood it when I read it. You would have basic attacks and then you would have an ability (passive or otherwise) that would give you a bonus to your damage if you stood still. I think you're overlooking the one fundamental question you need to be asking yourself when you're taking snippet <A> and trying to merge it with snippet <B> in order to try and get a glimpse of the bigger picture. And that one fundamental question is, "Does it make sense?" Does it make sense that in a game featuring mobility as a more important component of combat that a melee class would be unable to attack unless they're standing completely still? Not really. Particularly in light of the statement on the official page that says, "The strength of the marauders lies in their ability to control timing and distance to maximize the efficacy of their blows."

So instead of asking for clarification in light of conflicting statements, assumptions are made. The worst fears must be realized or life is just not worth living, amirite? The alternative might be someone actually reading carefully and thinking, at worst, "Something is not making sense here, so maybe I should inquire and see what other people have to say on it."

The mechanic you're referring to, btw, appears to be called "Steadfast Stance", which ought not be confused as, "The only stance in which I am able to attack".
#19 Mar 13 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I understood it when I read it. You would have basic attacks and then you would have an ability (passive or otherwise) that would give you a bonus to your damage if you stood still. I think you're overlooking the one fundamental question you need to be asking yourself when you're taking snippet <A> and trying to merge it with snippet <B> in order to try and get a glimpse of the bigger picture.


Ahh, but you are wrong. It turns out that it's not a passive ability, but something that you activate. If you select this charged up move and the mob happens to wander over to your adventuring buddy(who is out of range) while you are charging it then the power you stored will be lost when you have to move. This brings up a few questions that are not answered in the interview and concearn me. Also, these are not snippets unless the interviewers decided to put two different things together. Quoted directly from the interview...

Dengenki Classes and Beta Q&A wrote:
- While storing up power, is it impossible to perform any actions that require movement?

A: Moving cancels the act of storing power.


These are their words and not my conclusions. Because we(I) have no experience with the game and only a few lines of text and some gameplay footage to go on I think its clear why there is so much confusion. Cancelling the act of storing power could mean that it will resume where you left off when you stop moving or it could mean that this power is completely lost. They do not specify and its not likely this question will ever be answered until you experience it first hand.

Quote:
The mechanic you're referring to, btw, appears to be called "Steadfast Stance", which ought not be confused as, "The only stance in which I am able to attack".


So its "Steadfast Stance" that allows you to charge up power and turn single target attacks to AoE? Alright, I'll see if I can find any info on this...

Eorzeapedia.com wrote:
Weapon Skills:
Skull Thunder: Lasting damage on the enemy or gather your power to create a wider AoE attack.

Okuda – In order to use some of the Marauder’s special abilities, you’ll have to be standing still.


So either you're wrong again or we're both right. They have multiple abilities that require them to be standing still. Sounds like they're a pretty immobile attacking class to me.
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#20 Mar 13 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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They have an ability currently to override this.

Quote:
Enduring March: Take strong and sure steps, enabling movement at reduced speed while bound. While active, also maintains steadfast stance while moving.


Edited, Mar 13th 2010 8:02pm by VayMasters
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#21 Mar 13 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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格闘士


Pugilist

- With Offensive Stance and Defensive Stance, does the stance change based on the abilities you use?


A: When you select a command, you can decide upon either one based on the position of the Effect Gauge. Moving it towards Offensive is good for attacks and moving it towards Defensive is good for defending. Once a stance is deepened to its maximum point, there will be other abilities that become available.

- Chakra says it consumes TP to heal one's HP, but can the effect be changed by the amount of TP it consumes?

A: The effect does change based on the amount of TP it uses. You cannot choose the amount yourself, but there will be levels to its effectiveness.

- Why does Pugilist have Steal?

A: We wanted to prepare several different avenues for each class to grow. Think of it as a way to put one's skills to a more sinister use.

- Will the damage from Tackle improve the farther away from the enemy you start?

A: Yes, having a running start increases the damage.

Its part of a Dev interview a couple of days ago.
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#22 Mar 13 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I thought you guys were talking about Maurader. The Maurader has steadfast stance, I didn't know that the Pugs stances were named yet.
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#23 Mar 13 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Quote:
I understood it when I read it. You would have basic attacks and then you would have an ability (passive or otherwise) that would give you a bonus to your damage if you stood still. I think you're overlooking the one fundamental question you need to be asking yourself when you're taking snippet <A> and trying to merge it with snippet <B> in order to try and get a glimpse of the bigger picture.


Ahh, but you are wrong. It turns out that it's not a passive ability, but something that you activate. If you select this charged up move and the mob happens to wander over to your adventuring buddy(who is out of range) while you are charging it then the power you stored will be lost when you have to move. This brings up a few questions that are not answered in the interview and concearn me. Also, these are not snippets unless the interviewers decided to put two different things together. Quoted directly from the interview...


I didn't say it was a passive ability. I said an ability (passive or otherwise).

Sorry, but with reading comprehension like that it's no wonder you were confused.

Quote:
Dengenki Classes and Beta Q&A wrote:
- While storing up power, is it impossible to perform any actions that require movement?

A: Moving cancels the act of storing power.


These are their words and not my conclusions. Because we(I) have no experience with the game and only a few lines of text and some gameplay footage to go on I think its clear why there is so much confusion. Cancelling the act of storing power could mean that it will resume where you left off when you stop moving or it could mean that this power is completely lost. They do not specify and its not likely this question will ever be answered until you experience it first hand.


Since when has a basic melee attack in any MMO ever required storing power? Does it say storing power, or storing TP? So if it doesn't say you can't store TP and it doesn't say you can't auto attack, why would you come to the conclusion that you can't attack at all if you're moving?

Quote:
Eorzeapedia.com wrote:
Weapon Skills:
Skull Thunder: Lasting damage on the enemy or gather your power to create a wider AoE attack.

Okuda – In order to use some of the Marauder’s special abilities, you’ll have to be standing still.


So either you're wrong again or we're both right. They have multiple abilities that require them to be standing still. Sounds like they're a pretty immobile attacking class to me.


Okay so let's think it through in a little more detail, shall we?

You have an ability...Steadfast Stance...that allows you to store power.

You have a listed weapon skill that says lasting damage on the enemy or gather your power to createa wider AoE attack.

Not standing still = single target DoT. Standing still = AoE. Yes, now some comprehension starts to sink in. Ahhh...far cry from "can't attack unless you're standing still," isn't it?

That's all I'm saying. Too many people (see also: too many people) are taking poorly comprehended snippets of snippets and jumping to ridiculous conclusions. So let's all agree to follow a general guideline before we start writing our suicide notes, shall we?

1. Less assumption.
2. More comprehension.
3. ???
4. Profit.

I love a win-win.
#24 Mar 13 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
So let's all agree to follow a general guideline before we start writing our suicide notes, shall we?

1. Less assumption.
2. More comprehension.
3. Slap someone with a fish.
4. Profit.

I love a win-win.


::nods::
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#25 Mar 13 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I didn't say it was a passive ability. I said an ability (passive or otherwise).

Sorry, but with reading comprehension like that it's no wonder you were confused.


I never said that you did. Eventhough you implied that it might be, I just said that it is not passive. Because its not. I understand what you wrote. The part that is wrong is the bonus damage. The charge up makes the ability AoE which may or may not increase damage.


Quote:
Since when has a basic melee attack in any MMO ever required storing power? Does it say storing power, or storing TP? So if it doesn't say you can't store TP and it doesn't say you can't auto attack, why would you come to the conclusion that you can't attack at all if you're moving?


Apparently since the invention of this particular attack unless it works like casting in XI where if you move you lose. I haven't played them all so I can't really say which games have this battle mechanic. It says storing power. Its really stupid to draw conclusions based on what it doesn't say, rather than what it does. Break down what it does say...

The use of this ability requires the charging of power.
Power cannot be charged while moving.
You cannot use this charging ability to attack while moving.

I'm pretty sure that this is the way I understand it to be and how it will work in the game. I do not understand this to mean that you cannot attack at all while moving, but if you do select this ability that you are unable to move unless you want to interupt the action. Its clearly not a matter of comprehension. If there is not enough information then people will draw their own conclusions.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Mar 13 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Quote:
I didn't say it was a passive ability. I said an ability (passive or otherwise).

Sorry, but with reading comprehension like that it's no wonder you were confused.


I never said that you did. Eventhough you implied that it might be, I just said that it is not passive. Because its not. I understand what you wrote. The part that is wrong is the bonus damage. The charge up makes the ability AoE which may or may not increase damage.


How do you know it's not passive? Can you provide me a link from SE where it specifically states that it's a toggled/activated ability? It could well be passive...that you start storing power any time you stand still while your weapon is drawn. You also don't know the effect that it will have on damage overall because we haven't been given complete ability lists yet. See the difference? You're taking information and making concrete assumptions. I'm taking information and extrapolating possible scenarios.

Less assumption.

More comprehension.

Fishes.

Profit.

Quote:
Quote:
Since when has a basic melee attack in any MMO ever required storing power? Does it say storing power, or storing TP? So if it doesn't say you can't store TP and it doesn't say you can't auto attack, why would you come to the conclusion that you can't attack at all if you're moving?


Its really stupid to draw conclusions based on what it doesn't say, rather than what it does.


I agree. So what's your excuse?

Quote:
Break down what it does say...


Yes, let's...

Quote:
The use of this ability requires the charging of power.


Link please.

Quote:
Power cannot be charged while moving.
You cannot use this charging ability to attack while moving.


So you can't charge power while moving. That's all it says. It says nothing about standard melee attacks and makes no global statements about usage of TP. It doesn't say all abilities require that you have power stored up. So if you take what is written, it means that Marauders will be more effective while stationary. Doesn't mean they have to be stationary to do anything. Just that there will be inherent benefits to staying put.

If you actually read the abilities listed on the official site, any ability listed with mention of charged power lists it as an augmentation to the basic ability.

So if we take what other things SE has said...like how combat will involve more movement than in FFXI...and then ask ourselves, "Does it make sense that they'd do that and then make a class that is functionally useless unless they're standing still?" all of a sudden we arrive at this thing some might call a flaw in our conclusion. And then when presented with an alternative that does make sense...that Marauders will be able to function on the move but will be at their very best while standing still and voila!! A rational conclusion!

Or does the idea of a rational conclusion bother you?

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that this is the way I understand it to be and how it will work in the game. I do not understand this to mean that you cannot attack at all while moving, but if you do select this ability that you are unable to move unless you want to interupt the action. Its clearly not a matter of comprehension. If there is not enough information then people will draw their own conclusions.


It means, from a more rational hypothetical, that a savvy tank is going to take note of the Marauder in their party and do their best to keep mobs stationary, which is what a good tank does whenever possible anyways. It means that if you're the guy playing the Marauder you're going to look for any/every opportunity to stay put, but you're not going to suffer heavily for opting to move for range or to transition targets for fear of rendering yourself useless. Take it from someone who has more diverse MMO experience than you seem to have...melee classes are already penalized in heavy movement scenarios based on the nature of their attacks. Further penalizing them because it seems like a neat idea would be a pretty boneheaded move on the part of a developer.

Big picture. Marauders will still be using normal melee attacks on the move. They'll still be able to use most if not all TP-based attacks on the move. What they won't be able to do on the move is make use of the added benefit of stored power unless they're able to remain stationary for an undetermined length of time.

Edit: If you want to get technical, this is what the devs said about power:

Quote:
Basically, storing up power will make regular melee attacks into AoE attacks. Storing up power will have other special effects on weaponskills.


Big difference between that and your conclusions, isn't there?

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 7:22pm by AureliusSir
#27 Mar 13 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Default
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4,146 posts
Aurelius wrote:
How do you know it's not passive? Can you provide me a link from SE where it specifically states that it's a toggled/activated ability?


I already did, but apparently you didn't read it. Once again from the Dengenki post here http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=12682779933574566&num=105&page=1

Dengenki Classes and Beta info wrote:
- Marauders can store up power to unleash an AoE attack. Can they do this with regular melee attacks, or is it only reserved for weaponskills?


A: Basically, storing up power will make regular melee attacks into AoE attacks. Storing up power will have other special effects on weaponskills.

- While storing up power, is it impossible to perform any actions that require movement?

A: Moving cancels the act of storing power.


Its important to note that the second question asks if it is impossible to perform any other actions. The answer does not address this part of the question so here is where you're left to draw conclusions. I'm not assuming that you cannot do anything else while storing power, but it is CLEARLY stated that moving will cancel this effect. They do not say if moving will clear any power you have stored or if it only temporarily halts gains in power.

Quote:
I agree. So what's your excuse?


Quote:
So if it doesn't say you can't store TP and it doesn't say you can't auto attack, why would you come to the conclusion that you can't attack at all if you're moving?


My only conclusion is that if you activate this ability(referring to whatever it is that allows AoE for regular attacks or 'other special effects' on weaponskils) you are unable to move. If you cannot use this attack while moving... well you just can't. Again, I'm not going by what it doesn't say, only by what it does say and they don't answer the question clearly. Perhaps they should've restated the question because the answer is not there.

It is stated in several places and on several websites that you will not gain any power while moving. I have already linked it twice, but here it is once again and from two different sources. Do you bother to read the posts before you respond? http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/03/13/lost-and-gained-in-translation-abilities-and-weapon-skills/

Eorzeapedia wrote:
Weapon Skills:
Skull Thunder: Lasting damage on the enemy or gather your power to create a wider AoE attack.

Okuda – In order to use some of the Marauder’s special abilities, you’ll have to be standing still.


Aurelius wrote:
So you can't charge power while moving. That's all it says. It says nothing about standard melee attacks...


Direct your attention to the first quote from Dengenki please. Read it again. Now take as long as you need to try to comprehend it. Now admit that you are wrong. Bolded and @#%^ing underlined.

Saying that having abilities that are more potent while standing still is far from saying that the class is completely useless while moving. This was never the conclusion I drew. My concearn with what is stated by the devs is that it does not address what else you can or cannot do during the 'powering up' phase.

Comprehend this... not all MMOs are created equal. Just because you feel that you have more experience than myself or anyone else does not mean that your conclusions drawn from information which is unclear or has yet to be presented are any closer to the truth than anyone else. You contradict yourself several times in your post and then you call me out by quoting the same information you asked me to link as proof of my claims. You seem to have a firm understanding of what my conclusions are even though all I'm asking for is more information because they didn't answer the @#%^ing question. That is my conclusion.

Edited, Mar 14th 2010 12:11am by FilthMcNasty
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#28 Mar 13 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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#29 Mar 13 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
How do you know it's not passive? Can you provide me a link from SE where it specifically states that it's a toggled/activated ability?


I already did, but apparently you didn't read it. Once again from the Dengenki post here http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=12682779933574566&num=105&page=1


The Dengeki article does NOT say that Steadfast Stance is passive or activated. At all. It makes a lot more sense that it would be passive and would start charging power any time you're not in motion while you're in combat mode, but if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong because it says something when in fact it does not, you're a moron and you need to go back to one of MY statements about your abysmal reading comprehension.

Dengenki Classes and Beta info wrote:
Its important to note that the second question asks if it is impossible to perform any other actions. The answer does not address this part of the question so here is where you're left to draw conclusions. I'm not assuming that you cannot do anything else while storing power, but it is CLEARLY stated that moving will cancel this effect. They do not say if moving will clear any power you have stored or if it only temporarily halts gains in power.


Only if you're not so bright. You have standard melee attacks. You have TP based attacks. You have stored power. Power will only be stored if you stand still. Does it get dumped if you move? Who knows? Does it matter? No. Because the only explicit information we've seen is that stored power will convert standard melee attacks to AoE attacks and will add extra effects to weaponskills. There's a one line hint that some abilities may require stored power, but for all we know that's referencing the AoE components of the base skills you can use whether you have power or not. Drawing any conclusion s beyond that is, in your own terms, stupid, because the devs haven't said one way or the other what (if any) abilities will be fully and completely unavailable without stored power.

Quote:
My only conclusion is that if you activate this ability(referring to whatever it is that allows AoE for regular attacks or 'other special effects' on weaponskils) you are unable to move. If you cannot use this attack while moving... well you just can't. Again, I'm not going by what it doesn't say, only by what it does say and they don't answer the question clearly. Perhaps they should've restated the question because the answer is not there.


No, you can move...it just impacts whether or not you store power. I think you're thinking of Steadfast Stance as something akin to a spell you cast to gain power. I think you're mistaken. What I'm saying is that it's more likely a passive ability that causes you to store power when you're not moving and that automatically converts your standard melee attacks to AoE and automatically changes the effect of your weaponskills. And if you're going to insist that I'm wrong, provide a quote...not a link to 3 screens of interviews...find it yourself, quote it, and support your own **** (flawed) argument. I don't think you can. In fact, I know you can't. So get over yourself and stop being such a thick twit about it.

Quote:
It is stated in several places and on several websites that you will not gain any power while moving.


No ****. So what? What is it you think you need power in order to do? Don't say standard melee attacks, because that would make you stupid. And don't say weapon skills, because that would make you stupid, too. So WHAT, in the BLUE **** is it that you think you need power for so much so that you "can't" move while storing it?

Quote:
I have already linked it twice, but here it is once again and from two different sources. Do you bother to read the posts before you respond? http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/03/13/lost-and-gained-in-translation-abilities-and-weapon-skills/


The ONLY reference to power for Marauders in that entire page you linked is for Enduring March. You still haven't linked or quoted ANYTHING pertaining to SPECIFIC ABILITIES that REQUIRE power in order to use them at all. Everything else says that you can use it, and if you have power it's AoE or has bonus effects. So WHAT is your freaking hangup on this?

Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
So you can't charge power while moving. That's all it says. It says nothing about standard melee attacks...


Direct your attention to the first quote from Dengenki please. Read it again. Now take as long as you need to try to comprehend it. Now admit that you are wrong. Bolded and @#%^ing underlined.


IT DOESN'T SAY THAT YOU CAN'T USE STANDARD MELEE ATTACKS WITHOUT POWER. IT SAYS IT MAKES THEM AOE. THERE'S AN ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE.

Is that bolded and underlined enough for you?

Quote:
Saying that having abilities that are more potent while standing still is far from saying that the class is completely useless while moving. This was never the conclusion I drew. My concearn with what is stated by the devs is that it does not address what else you can or cannot do during the 'powering up' phase.


You can use melee attacks while powering up. And you can use TP attacks while powering up. It's a STANCE, not an ABILITY. Figure out the difference and stop being such a thick twit.

Quote:
Comprehend this... not all MMOs are created equal. Just because you feel that you have more experience than myself or anyone else does not mean that your conclusions drawn from information which is unclear or has yet to be presented are any closer to the truth than anyone else. You contradict yourself several times in your post and then you call me out by quoting the same information you asked me to link as proof of my claims. You seem to have a firm understanding of what my conclusions are even though all I'm asking for is more information because they didn't answer the @#%^ing question. That is my conclusion.


If you weren't such a dunce, you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. You would have figured it out on your own.
#30 Mar 14 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
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4,146 posts
Quote:
The Dengeki article does NOT say that Steadfast Stance is passive or activated. At all. It makes a lot more sense that it would be passive and would start charging power any time you're not in motion while you're in combat mode, but if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong because it says something when in fact it does not, you're a moron and you need to go back to one of MY statements about your abysmal reading comprehension.


If Steadfast Stance is what makes you gain this power while you are standing still then it is something that is active based on which stance you select. I'm glad you've decided to resort to name calling. Lets take it back to 5th grade.

Quote:
There's a one line hint that some abilities may require stored power, but for all we know that's referencing the AoE components of the base skills you can use whether you have power or not. Drawing any conclusion s beyond that is, in your own terms, stupid, because the devs haven't said one way or the other what (if any) abilities will be fully and completely unavailable without stored power.


Its not a hint. Its plainly stated that you will be required to store power to make normal attacks(single target) do AoE damage or to activate 'other special effects' when using weaponskills. The question is, will storing this power up keep you from using other abilities. The answer given does not satisfy the question. Again, I haven't made any conclusions.

Quote:
No, you can move...it just impacts whether or not you store power. I think you're thinking of Steadfast Stance as something akin to a spell you cast to gain power. I think you're mistaken.


Way to state the obvious. We know you can move. We know that you will not store power when you move. The question is what happens to the ******* power if and when you do move. Go read the question again for the first time. I'm not thinking of it as a spell, rather asking if the effect works like a spell. That is basically a way to understand how the mechanic of the ability works. The comparison used between casting a spell and storing TP is valid because it shows how this mechanic functions. You wanna call me a moron because I want to understand how it works? Let me take you back to 4th grade...

If this mechanic is like TP then you would gain power up until you move. TP is reset upon use so the amount you had accumulated up to the point you moved would remain until you stopped moving or used an ability assuming you have enough power stored once you stop moving. However, if this mechanic works similar to casting a spell then your power gain would be tcompletely dumped and reset if you move during any point between starting gain up to completion of the ability. Simple comparison to try and understand how **** is supposed to work.


Quote:
No sh*t. So what? What is it you think you need power in order to do? Don't say standard melee attacks, because that would make you stupid. And don't say weapon skills, because that would make you stupid, too. So WHAT, in the BLUE **** is it that you think you need power for so much so that you "can't" move while storing it?


You're completely missing the point. We already know what power is used for. Its not needed to do anything other than what has been stated repeatedly so that you might understand, but obviously don't. Where did I say you need power for regular attacks or weaponskills? Its used to alter normal attacks and weaponskills jackass. You need some Skull Thunder to get a simple concept through that dense head you carry around. Don't try to stand on 'facts' you pulled out of thin air and ******* grill me about providing links. Especially when the links prove you wrong and then you sit back and call names because I'm not bright enough to make **** up like you.









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#31 Mar 14 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Quote:
The Dengeki article does NOT say that Steadfast Stance is passive or activated. At all. It makes a lot more sense that it would be passive and would start charging power any time you're not in motion while you're in combat mode, but if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong because it says something when in fact it does not, you're a moron and you need to go back to one of MY statements about your abysmal reading comprehension.


If Steadfast Stance is what makes you gain this power while you are standing still then it is something that is active based on which stance you select. I'm glad you've decided to resort to name calling. Lets take it back to 5th grade.


If it's a persistent buff, it's not an active ability. It's passive. Once enabled, you don't have to keep enabling it. Any time you are not moving, you gain the benefits of it. That's passive, not active, and if you can't tell the difference that's not my problem. There has been no mention of any other stance for Marauders.

Quote:
Its not a hint. Its plainly stated that you will be required to store power to make normal attacks(single target) do AoE damage or to activate 'other special effects' when using weaponskills. The question is, will storing this power up keep you from using other abilities. The answer given does not satisfy the question. Again, I haven't made any conclusions.


No, it won't. The devs have specifically said that you can forego storing powers if you want to attack faster. If you want the benefit of stored power, you stand still while it charges and then trigger your attack. If you don't care or don't have time to stand still, you just go.

Quote:
Way to state the obvious. We know you can move. We know that you will not store power when you move. The question is what happens to the @#%^ing power if and when you do move.


Really? That was your question? What happens to the power if and when you do move? Are you sure? Because that looks a fair bit different from your question in your post in this thread:

Dumbass the Confused wrote:
who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running


Interesting discrepancy, wouldn't you say, Captain Backpeddler?

Quote:
Go read the question again for the first time.


I didn't just read it, I quoted it for you. So worm your way out of that one if you can.

Quote:
I'm not thinking of it as a spell, rather asking if the effect works like a spell. That is basically a way to understand how the mechanic of the ability works. The comparison used between casting a spell and storing TP is valid because it shows how this mechanic functions. You wanna call me a moron because I want to understand how it works? Let me take you back to 4th grade...

If this mechanic is like TP then you would gain power up until you move. TP is reset upon use so the amount you had accumulated up to the point you moved would remain until you stopped moving or used an ability assuming you have enough power stored once you stop moving. However, if this mechanic works similar to casting a spell then your power gain would be tcompletely dumped and reset if you move during any point between starting gain up to completion of the ability. Simple comparison to try and understand how sh*t is supposed to work.


I've given you about a half dozen attempts in this thread to reinforce your original dumbass assertion that the information given could easily be construed as being unable to attack while moving. Now you're just twisting things around and making **** up as you go. And I'm almost out of fish. So carry on as a dumbass would. Makes no difference to me. You're in over your head and too stupid to know it so maybe I'll extend to you one last chance to do the smart thing, which would be to quit while you're ahead.

Quote:
Where did I say you need power for regular attacks or weaponskills?


In your first post in this thread. No power while moving, to you, translated to, "who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running." You about done digging yet?

Quote:
Its used to alter normal attacks and weaponskills jackass.


I know. Apparently, you found that out from me.

Quote:
You need some Skull Thunder to get a simple concept through that dense head you carry around. Don't try to stand on 'facts' you pulled out of thin air and @#%^ing grill me about providing links. Especially when the links prove you wrong and then you sit back and call names because I'm not bright enough to make sh*t up like you.


The links don't prove me wrong. At all. Less forum time for you...more remedial literacy classes.
#32 Mar 14 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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4,146 posts
Quote:
If it's a persistent buff, it's not an active ability. It's passive. Once enabled, you don't have to keep enabling it. Any time you are not moving, you gain the benefits of it. That's passive, not active, and if you can't tell the difference that's not my problem.


So these AoE attacks and special effects that you get to weaponskills are persistent? Meaning that once you fill your power to the necessary level they will automatically trigger? I don't see that being of any consequence at all...
"Woot! We got Fafnir claim... wait, why the **** are all these darters beating me down? Oh ****, I unleashed the powa D:"



Quote:
No, it won't. The devs have specifically said that you can forego storing powers if you want to attack faster.


This still does not answer the question. You can skip storing power and dance around the mob like a jackass, yes. That doesn't mean that when you do store it you will still be able to attack normally just at a slower rate. If this is true then its your turn to link. This info would have answered the question in the first place.

I haven't twisted anything. The thread is about the OP being annoyed with people not being able to comprehend dev answers in interviews. They say that camps will be mobile yet they have a class where its to your benefit to stay planted. Does that make sense? That is after all according to you, the fundamental question.

Quote:
Quote:
Where did I say you need power for regular attacks or weaponskills?


In your first post in this thread. No power while moving, to you, translated to, "After reading that you need to build power for your attacks and that moving cancels this effect, who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running?"
You about done digging yet?


I added the entire question so you could take it into context. This doesn't say you need power to perform regular attacks. It says that based on what the devs said, if you need to move you cannot perform the attacks you store power to use. Its based in response to the OP saying..

Frebaut wrote:
Like they just didn't read what was said. For example: If you can attack while running? When they just read that a Pug can. I just think its funny how people can't read an interview.


The devs said just that about the Marauder class. If you want to use some of the special attacks, you need to be standing still.

Quote:
I've given you about a half dozen attempts in this thread to reinforce your original dumbass assertion that the information given could easily be construed as being unable to attack while moving.


It only took one.










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#33 Mar 14 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Quote:
If it's a persistent buff, it's not an active ability. It's passive. Once enabled, you don't have to keep enabling it. Any time you are not moving, you gain the benefits of it. That's passive, not active, and if you can't tell the difference that's not my problem.


So these AoE attacks and special effects that you get to weaponskills are persistent? Meaning that once you fill your power to the necessary level they will automatically trigger? I don't see that being of any consequence at all...
"Woot! We got Fafnir claim... wait, why the **** are all these darters beating me down? Oh sh*t, I unleashed the powa D:"


If...

it is a persistent buff...

it is passive.

And since we've seen nothing to suggest that it's passive or something you activate each time you want to use it, for you to say it IS active and it is NOT passive is pretty stupid. You don't know either way.

If it's something you toggle and it remains until you turn it off, it's passive. If it's something you have to key each time you want to use it, it's active. Having it as passive makes sense. Having it as active makes sense. That is my point. Not sure it was all that bright of you to use the FFXI example...a game where AoE was a joke farming tool and not something that was ever used in at-level combat to any substantially degree, but whatever floats your boat. You still haven't quoted where it has been said that you activate it like an ability as opposed to a persistent trait that charges power any time you're in combat and not moving or a toggled buff that does the same that can be turned off, yet you claim to know exactly what it is. I've read the Dengeki and the Famitsu articles. I've read your Eorzeapedia link. NONE of those said ANYTHING about how Steadfast Stance is implemented.

And really , it doesn't matter, because your question had nothing to do with how power was stored...it was how anyone could possibly not come to the conclusion that Marauders wouldn't be able to attack while running.

Quote:
Quote:
No, it won't. The devs have specifically said that you can forego storing powers if you want to attack faster.


This still does not answer the question. You can skip storing power and dance around the mob like a jackass, yes. That doesn't mean that when you do store it you will still be able to attack normally just at a slower rate. If this is true then its your turn to link. This info would have answered the question in the first place.


I'm going to do you better than a simple link. I'm going to quote it. Then I'm going to give you a link and you can find the quote within that page. Then I'm going to explain it. And the next time you ask me for a link instead of doing your own @#%^ing research, and require an explanation instead of using your won @#%^ing brain, I'm going to bludgeon you with a sturgeon. I do my research and I don't struggle to understand basic English. You still have NOT provided the quote where it says Steadfast Stance is an activated ability, btw, so get off your lazy *** and provide the quote or stfu.

Famitsu article wrote:
However, if there are many enemies to deal with, they can forgo storing up that power in order to strike more often.


Link.

Stop and charge power before attacking = slower attacks. Forego charging power = attack faster.

Quote:
I haven't twisted anything. The thread is about the OP being annoyed with people not being able to comprehend dev answers in interviews. They say that camps will be mobile yet they have a class where its to your benefit to stay planted. Does that make sense? That is after all according to you, the fundamental question.


You're not going to be running and fighting the entire time. If you had played an MMO with many vs. many + moving from mob group to mob group instead of many vs. one and pulling everything to a predesignated camp, you'd know this. You're going to engage one group, fight them, move to the next group, etc. When you're fighting, in most cases a savvy tank is going to hold mobs still. That's how it's done in other games. SE might put a more diverse spin on it but you're out to lunch if you think that fighting in FFXIV is going to entail CONSTANT movement. It's not. Marauders will have chances to charge power...just not necessarily all the time.

Quote:
I added the entire question so you could take it into context. This doesn't say you need power to perform regular attacks. It says that based on what the devs said, if you need to move you cannot perform the attacks you store power to use. Its based in response to the OP saying..


No, you didn't say "attacks you store power to use." You said "attacks". Big difference.

Quote:
Quote:
I've given you about a half dozen attempts in this thread to reinforce your original dumbass assertion that the information given could easily be construed as being unable to attack while moving.


It only took one.


You still haven't succeeded.


Edited, Mar 14th 2010 1:28am by AureliusSir
#34 Mar 14 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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4,146 posts
Quote:
If it's something you toggle and it remains until you turn it off, it's passive. If it's something you have to key each time you want to use it, it's active. Having it as passive makes sense. Having it as active makes sense. That is my point. Not sure it was all that bright of you to use the FFXI example...a game where AoE was a joke farming tool and not something that was ever used in at-level combat to any substantially degree, but whatever floats your boat.


Based on almost everything I have seen about this game there is nothing automatic and you need to activate almost every attack, ability or stance ect... If not through a button press it will be something that you activate to dictate what abilities are available to you like a stance. Maybe I wasn't clear, but the XI example shows why this could be dangerous. It doesn't make sense to have AoE going off as randomly as a timer filling up. It would make sense if you either pick the single target attack or the AoE attack. It would be annoying to be limited to using only one of these types of attack or to have to keep moving to avoid accidental use of AoE. Especially when you don't want to wake that killer bunny you linked.

Quote:
And really , it doesn't matter, because your question had nothing to do with how power was stored...it was how anyone could possibly not come to the conclusion that Marauders wouldn't be able to attack while running.


Again, that question was posed to the OP about how it could be easy to think that you would not be able to attack while moving. I personally questioned the answer that was linked from the Dengenki interview about Marauders specifically not being able to use their charged abilities while moving and what happens to the power if they do move. Going back to my first reply to you...

Quote:
Dengenki Classes and Beta Q&A wrote:
- While storing up power, is it impossible to perform any actions that require movement?

A: Moving cancels the act of storing power.



These are their words and not my conclusions. Because we(I) have no experience with the game and only a few lines of text and some gameplay footage to go on I think its clear why there is so much confusion. Cancelling the act of storing power could mean that it will resume where you left off when you stop moving or it could mean that this power is completely lost. They do not specify and its not likely this question will ever be answered until you experience it first hand.


This is what I had an issue with. Not normal attacks. The only thing I question is this whole power up sh*t.

Quote:
I do my research and I don't struggle to understand basic English. You still have NOT provided the quote where it says Steadfast Stance is an activated ability, btw, so get off your lazy *** and provide the quote or stfu.


If I'm not mistaken this was posted just before the Dengenki info and I did read it. Its still not very clear about if you can still activate other attacks during the power up. Yes, you can forgo the stronger charged attacks for the normal single target ones. What happens inbetween?


I didn't say the stance was an activated ability. You said that I was referring to the Steadfast Stance when I was talking specifically about the attacks and weaponskills relating to the storing of power.

I also didn't say that you would constantly be on the go, but SE has mentioned that instead of a group staying in one spot pulling for hours that we will have to be mobile. This doesn't mean constantly, but it doesn't sound like a bonus for a class that seems to be limited in their effectiveness while roaming. They also said that Marauders may struggle with large groups. This also affects the class.

Quote:
No, you didn't say "attacks you store power to use." You said "attacks". Big difference.


Quote:
After reading that you need to build power for your attacks and that moving cancels this effect, who wouldn't think you couldn't perform attacks while running.


If you want to you can take it there I guess. It should be obvious to most including and especially those who 'did their research' that when I refer to building power for attacks, that the attacks I'm speaking about use the power stored. No, I did not say "attacks used with stored power" or "attacks made in Steadfast Stance" It should've been obvious.



Edited, Mar 14th 2010 5:37am by FilthMcNasty
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30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#36 Mar 14 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quit with the flaming please. Take it to ASylum if you need to.
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#37 Mar 14 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Wait what... Did i miss something...
Square Enix is making another MMO ?
OMG - FFXIV is going to be an MMO...

/excitement
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