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No THF? What's the deal...Follow

#1 Mar 15 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm thinking either 1 of 2 things:

1 - They are just leaking out information extremely slow and havn't gotten around to announcing the 'dagger' job yet or..


2 - It will be some sort of advanced form of the pugilist that will need to be unlocked somehow or added in a future expansion
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#2 Mar 15 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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I think if there is a true Thief class the only hope would be that it's added in later. They are already spreading elements from the FFXI THF into different jobs in FFXIV, and as upsetting as it is I don't see a true thief adding anything else that they haven't given other classes... except maybe the fact that all those traits are in one character?
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#3 Mar 15 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Either way I don't think the dagger job will be a thief exactly, since stuff like steal has already been given away. But who knows.
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#4 Mar 15 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm hoping for something with more depth then just a thief. Thief has always seemed so generic in terms of people who want a "mischevious" or "bad" chracter. I'm hoping they make something really new and interesting.
#5 Mar 15 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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assassin incoming.
#6 Mar 15 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I assume there will be a dagger weilding class and you can "build" a thief around it. That is because I feel you can use abilities from other classes in some way or another. Speculation is just speculation though.
#7 Mar 15 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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assassin incoming


I'm pretty sure that the Japanese are more likely to view a ninja being an assassin moreso than a thief. :P
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#8 Mar 15 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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They have already given out all of the job abilities thf had from FFXI. Flee goes to archer, hide (or something like it) goes to archer, treasure hunter goes to blacksmith, sneak attack goes to pugilist, steal goes to pugilist, and trick attack goes to lancer.

I doubt a thf class will be around in this game, at least in the form we recognize. Like everyone else, though, I'm betting on an assassin class or something similar.
#9 Mar 15 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's still possible because there isn't a primary healing class revealed yet either and I'd be really surprised if there wasn't one since there appears to be a WHM type of outfit in the art.
#10 Mar 15 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Default
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Still think COnjurer will be the main healer, they have cure, but we'll see. Whoever is, they'll still have offensive abilities they can use, they'll need them to solo with.
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#11 Mar 15 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oddly at this point it's Gladiators who can use daggers. It does seem like if you want to assemble a traditional Thief you'd have to do so piece by piece, but I wouldn't put it completely past SE to create a Thief class. It's not looking like a starting class at this point though. Maybe they will add it as a "specialty."
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#12 Mar 15 2010 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Oddly at this point it's Gladiators who can use daggers


No Gladiators are sword based, I'm quite sure of it. it only lists sword on the FFXIV web site, and seeing as how the weapon dictates the job, I'm sure a different weapon means a different job.
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#13 Mar 15 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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Gladiators specialize in the handling of all manner of one-handed blades, from daggers to longswords, be they single- or double-edged, straight or curved.


Taken from the FFXIV official website under the gladiator section.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 11:46pm by senshikarasu
#14 Mar 15 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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My money is that THF and NIN are going to merge into either Assassin or Bandit!
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#15 Mar 15 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
Gladiators specialize in the handling of all manner of one-handed blades, from daggers to longswords, be they single- or double-edged, straight or curved.

Taken from the FFXIV official website under the gladiator section.


okay gotcha. thanks :)
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#16 Mar 16 2010 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
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*Speculation*... what if these base jobs were just that.. BASE JOBS. After you play there character and level up(i know there are know levels) you unlock abilities. Then just like in FFXI when you quested to to have a sub job, you quest to create your own character... assigning abilities to create a unique job. You could in essence create a THF job. Also i read that the crafting jobs have certin abilities in combat. I really doubt you would take a Blacksmith over a Gladiator in a PT set up. All the abilities listed for the crafting jobs are non attack abilities. Your could call them traits so to speak. As you level the craft.. you unlock these traits that are active no matter what JOB you are playing.. or maybe a limited number of slots for learned traits. You then would be able to customize and create a class fitting your style.
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#17 Mar 16 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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The ability to have subjobs was something that made FFXI truely unique so I'm sure they won't abandon it here, although it may be changed somewhat. I would be really surprised if subs didn't make their way into XIV in some form. Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but the dagger job will be a pirate!

The choice to have crafters take an active roll in group play seems really odd to me though. I would've expected this to be something you wouldn't see on the battlefield actually fighting instead of repairing weapons or collecting materials during downtime. I could see this relating more to the so called 'many vs many' battles where fighters on the frontlines temporarily fall back for weapon and armor repairs from smiths. Perhaps the woodworkers could gather materials from the lumberjacks to create massive catapults to weaken the enemy strongholds. Alchemists concocting powder for cannons maybe? Could be a really interesting mechanic. Maybe I should apply for a job on projects like this XD
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#18 Mar 16 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
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THF + MNK = PUGILIST?

PUG got the steal,
based on lots fast weak attacks,
higher damage when fighting behind mobs,
focus on dex,crits.

Maybe there will something combined with NIN later, but I doubt there will be a THF only class.
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#19 Mar 16 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Swashbuckler will be part pirate, part thief, and by part thief i mean part hillbilly.
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#20 Mar 16 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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jtully wrote:
*Speculation*... what if these base jobs were just that.. BASE JOBS. After you play there character and level up(i know there are know levels) you unlock abilities. Then just like in FFXI when you quested to to have a sub job, you quest to create your own character... assigning abilities to create a unique job. You could in essence create a THF job. Also i read that the crafting jobs have certin abilities in combat. I really doubt you would take a Blacksmith over a Gladiator in a PT set up. All the abilities listed for the crafting jobs are non attack abilities. Your could call them traits so to speak. As you level the craft.. you unlock these traits that are active no matter what JOB you are playing.. or maybe a limited number of slots for learned traits. You then would be able to customize and create a class fitting your style.


I have a feeling this is how "defining" a class will come about. You take up different base jobs and pick and choose what skills to learn, you then apply those skills together and create your own class.

So to make a FFXI Thf in FFXIV you'd need to level Gladiator to level your dagger skill, level lancer and get Collusion (Trick Attack) then level Pugilist for Blindside (Sneak Attack) to make a sneak/trick attack type build.

How these skills continue to grow is yet unknown.
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#21 Mar 16 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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There's one important fact to keep in mind: it appears that classes may share abilities this time around. The only example I have to back this up at this time is the fact that both Pugilist and Gladiator have a Provoke-type ability, but I wouldn't put it past SE to have a THFy class that has a stronger version of the abilities that Pugilist and Lancer currently possess - or even similar abilities that work in slightly different ways. It's just too soon to tell right now.

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 10:57am by ChanchanXI
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#22 Mar 16 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
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Dagger gladiator with pugilist skills = THF, perhaps?
#23 Mar 16 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Because among all these people wielding giant weapons, a person with a dagger will feel awfully inadequate. :D
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#24 Mar 16 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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The thing is, right now, our options are extremely limited. We have TWO magic classes and five melee ones and just a handful of weapons.

Lance/Spear
2-handed Axes
1-handed Swords
Shields
Knuckles/Chakram
Bows/Undisclosed Throwing Weapon
Wands/Canes
Staves/Rods

(or something like that).

There are some VERY noticeable missing weapons that would be very surprising to lose. Daggers, 1-handed Axes, 2-handed Swords, Guns (which we know WILL be included). Then there are others that have been featured in other FF games and could very well make an appearance, such as Clubs, Katanas, Great Katanas, Bombs, Scythes and Crossbows (which were mentioned that, if implemented, wouldn't go to Archers).

I can definitely see a release of "advanced" jobs, too--ones that require a tactics-like system of x proficiency with job A and Y proficiency with job B. Like having access to 5 Pugilist skills and 4 Archer skills lets you unlock the Corsair or maybe Ninja, who will have access to early skills from the original job, like Steal, but will progress into completely new skills (and the Archer and Pugilist will continue to progress on their own path).

I'm still REALLY hoping for a pet class. I often enjoy them. Something like a Pup (in terms of customization ability for the pet) would be wonderful. And it could open up some really interesting cross-discipline jobs. For instance, having so-and-so blacksmithing/alchemy/Beastmaster (which could potentially require Archer and Gladiator skills) would let you become an Engineer, who can focus on developing himself as a pet-master or let it be a call-and-forget boost while he focuses on using bombs/guns strategically.

All in all, I'm excited to see what they come up with.

[EDIT]
Quote:
There's one important fact to keep in mind: it appears that classes may share abilities this time around. The only example I have to back this up at this time is the fact that both Pugilist and Gladiator have a Provoke-type ability, but I wouldn't put it past SE to have a THFy class that has a stronger version of the abilities that Pugilist and Lancer currently possess - or even similar abilities that work in slightly different ways. It's just too soon to tell right now.


They did mention that there's limited capacity to give your main class abilities from another. I'm not sure how they mentioned it--it was in one of the interviews. I think they mentioned you could give your blacksmith limited ability to see and mine ore, or something, from becoming proficient with mining. So, maybe there's a point where certain proficiencies are gained independent of your skill and you can "set" some of them? Like if you have a "level 20" Miner, Archer and Gladiator, than maybe you could chose 1 or 2 of their low level proficiencies and tack it onto another class. Like if you wanted to increase your Pugilist's threat, or Give your Miner's pebbles a boost from the Archer?

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 1:25pm by idiggory
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#25 Mar 16 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:

They did mention that there's limited capacity to give your main class abilities from another. I'm not sure how they mentioned it--it was in one of the interviews. I think they mentioned you could give your blacksmith limited ability to see and mine ore, or something, from becoming proficient with mining. So, maybe there's a point where certain proficiencies are gained independent of your skill and you can "set" some of them? Like if you have a "level 20" Miner, Archer and Gladiator, than maybe you could chose 1 or 2 of their low level proficiencies and tack it onto another class. Like if you wanted to increase your Pugilist's threat, or Give your Miner's pebbles a boost from the Archer?


The idea, as I understand it, is that you would be able to (example only) bomb around on your Pugilist for a while until you learn Steal and then be able to use Steal on any class (no doubt with certain limitations and/or restrictions). That's why I'm not overly concerned with the limited selection of caster classes right now. There are only so many different types of magic, and the abilities in FFXIV are going to revolve around the weapon moreso than the class. If you can cure, nuke, buff, and debuff with the selection of caster class archetypes in the game, that's all that's needed. It may require bouncing back and forth between a Conjurer and a Thaumaturge to get the spells you want, but that's not really all that different from bouncing between various different subjobs to get what you wanted for your main in FFXI. That's not to say that there's no more room for caster classes or that they won't be announced before launch, but it helps to look at the abilities available as opposed to just which class has them.
#26 Mar 16 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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I guess. :/ I would really like them to add another healer though. Right now we only have 1. Imo, the biggest fault in XI was the sheer number of DD jobs versus the extremely small number of tanks (2-3, realistically for content players wanted to do) and healers (1-2, with Dnc later adding a 3rd). How many DD? Not counting Ninja/Warriors/Dancers, but counting Summoners, we had 17 DD jobs (20 total). That is NOT BALANCED.

Made life pretty annoying.

At least with WoW, now, we have 3 tank -capable jobs out of 10. Sure, most people playing those classes choose not to tank, but they COULD.

I wouldn't mind them adding jobs that specialized in only healing/damaging magic. The difficulty here, of course, is making sure that Conjurers are still desirable. I'd say this is best achieved by giving them strong heals and some support abilities, but letting the dedicated healer have access to HoTs and shields, among other things. But that's still a tough balancing act. And if you give the Conjurer unique buffs/debuffs, they may just end up like Rdms, and those will be the only spells they every use (Refresh... Haste... Refresh... Haste...)
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#27 Mar 16 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess. :/ I would really like them to add another healer though. Right now we only have 1. Imo, the biggest fault in XI was the sheer number of DD jobs versus the extremely small number of tanks


Ah, you make it sound so easy :p
The best adding more healing classes can do is encourage people who like healing to play another healing job after they're done with their current, increasing the longevity of the healer pool. There really isn't diddly game mechanics can do to increase the healer pool size, because the desire to heal just isn't there in most people.

This is the kind of thing that's resolved by sweeping and drastic modifications to the fundamentals, it's not something a class bandaid can fix.


Quote:
At least with WoW, now, we have 3 tank -capable jobs out of 10. Sure, most people playing those classes choose not to tank, but they COULD.


Maybe I've misread you.
Whether or not they can should be a non-issue, because that whole "strong-arm somebody through social pressure to 'take one for the team' and heal" is really only effective in unforgivably strict group systems. The more forgiving the system, the more likely it is people will throw some colorful verbs at you instead.



Edited, Mar 16th 2010 4:14pm by Zemzelette
#28 Mar 16 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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The best adding more healing classes can do is encourage people who like healing to play another healing job after they're done with their current, increasing the longevity of the healer pool. There really isn't diddly game mechanics can do to increase the healer pool size, because the desire to heal just isn't there in most people.


Not hardly, actually. People don't just choose their jobs based on mechanical functions and party role (in fact it may be the minority of experienced subscribers that do). The thematic elements of a class can act as tremendous draw or repellent. Another healing class that is thematically AND mechanically similar probably wouldn't increase the number of healers significantly, but consider two capable healing classes from FFX2:

http://www.ffx2.com/whitemage
http://www.ffx2.com/alchemist

Personally I have no interest in playing a White Mage, but Alchemist is kind of badass. Consider also all of the pirate-lovers who picked up a support class against their ideal inclinations when Corsair was released in FFXI.

Adding healers with differing themes and methods of healing could easily attract more people to healing classes.
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#29 Mar 16 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Ah, you make it sound so easy :p
The best adding more healing classes can do is encourage people who like healing to play another healing job after they're done with their current, increasing the longevity of the healer pool. There really isn't diddly game mechanics can do to increase the healer pool size, because the desire to heal just isn't there in most people.

This is the kind of thing that's resolved by sweeping and drastic modifications to the fundamentals, it's not something a class bandaid can fix.


I COMPLETELY disagree. Mechanics can make a great deal of difference in the population of an archetype.

Think of healing as a Whm vs. Healing as a Dnc. They're completely different, and for the most part the overlap isn't any larger than it would be for, say, a Whm and a Blm.

I'm going to make a WoW example here, because it works better:

In WoW, there are 4 healing jobs--Priest, Druid, Shaman and Paladin. They ALL play very differently. Priests have two different specs that let them specialize, in a nutshell, in either tank or AoE healing. They play very differently. Druids specialize in HoT (Heals over Time) spells, which means they are best at preemptive healing. Shaman are pretty decent at both, but they are unique in that one of their heals "bounces" from target to target, and gets less effective with each one. So they can't predict who is going to get which subsequent heal, which makes the way they manage casts and select targets different. Paladins are pretty much devoid of AoE heals, and focus a lot on high critical rates for single-target heals.

Sure, all of them require someone to want to heal, but the variation there increases the chance that they ACTUALLY WILL. If you only have one healing job, anyone who wants to heal but doesn't enjoy the play style will do something else. That's losing the population when you don't need to. Plus, having different choices may drive someone who is uncertain if they'd like healing to go ahead and do it. I never found Priests that interesting (well, I didn't think I'd mind healing, but I really hated leveling the Priest when I tried it). But, I've entertained the idea of leveling a Druid or Shaman for a long time with the intention of trying to heal first and foremost, because their play style sounds interesting to me.

Same thing with Tanking. WoW has 4 classes that all function differently. I really enjoy Death Knight tanking, think I'd like Paladin tanking, don't know about Warriors and know I don't like Druid tanking. The play style makes a big difference.

If you want to argue it doesn't, then feel free to explain why XI had 17 DD jobs. CLEARLY someone that wanted to DD would be fine with just a Mnk, right?

[EDIT]
Basically what Kachi said in a more FF-relevant manner in way fewer words.

One more example (this time FF specific).

Playing the support role, you had 3 options-- Rdm, Bard and Smn (despite that it wasn't often used). I know plenty of people that loved Rdm and hated Brd, or vice versa. They both wanted to play support, but had they been unable to play the one they wanted, they would have done something different rather than go the other (or Smn, since it was such a definition-less job).

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 4:53pm by idiggory
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#30 Mar 16 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'll make a concession for Aesthetics, sure. If my race rants are any indication, I'm not one to discount the power of it. But in all the games that have such variety, does it actually amount to changing the overall population ratios, or does the DPS branch of the holy trinity still come out the clear winner?

I won't turn my nose down at options, but does this really tackle the root of the problem in a lasting meaningful way?

#31 Mar 16 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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If you want to argue it doesn't, then feel free to explain why XI had 17 DD jobs. CLEARLY someone that wanted to DD would be fine with just a Mnk, right?


Don't really want to argue, but the answer to this question is too easy. Look no further than your typical group setup. There are 4 categories of classes in most MMOs. Tanks, healers, melee DD and ranged/caster DD. So far already a 2 to 1 in favor of DD if you have perfect balance(one of each type).

I know that other setups can work well, but you generally have 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 support job and 3 DD. Three DD jobs for each one of the other jobs. 2 types of DD for each of the other jobs... factor in that the majority of the gaming population would rather be delivering huge crits to the face for the oohs and ahhhs and its not hard to see why DD always heavily outnumbers other job types.

If 70% of the people playing a game would rather DD then it doesn't matter how many healing jobs are available. It would only affect the other 30% who don't mind wearing the dress.
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#32 Mar 16 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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But in all the games that have such variety, does it actually amount to changing the overall population ratios, or does the DPS branch of the holy trinity still come out the clear winner?


It certainly would. Because, like I said, let's say there is x% of people that are willing to heal (in the broad sense. Meaning, they would ever enjoy healing in some form). I'm going to arbitrarily say it's 20% for the purpose of discussion.

Now, if there is only 1 healing job, if a single one doesn't like the way it works, we will be seeing less than 20%. Chances are, many players aren't going to like that class. For the sake of discussion, we will say that 10% of those players won't enjoy healing as a Conjurer (they may like DDing as one or dislike it altogether. Perhaps we should include those who would be willing to do it if they had to, but would REALLY prefer not to--these do exist in large amounts). So, out of a potential 20% of players that were willing to heal, we are down to 10%. And of that 10%, many are going to enjoy doing other things on other jobs (none of which can heal) so that number is lower. And for some of them, they will prefer those other jobs, and only level conjurer on the side or for group activities with friends.

Now the actual population of healers is way lower than the potential population.

More classes means you lose fewer players to initial dislike of the job. More variety means more players that aren't on their main job may play another healer (either for skills or because they also like that one).

Plus, remember that XIV has specializations. Even if a conjurer is willing to heal, chances are many of them will prefer damage dealing when possible, so they will specialize towards those spells when possible. If the two don't scale together (two meaning damage and healing) in specializations, then you have an even lower pool of candidates for the most difficult content.
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#33 Mar 16 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.

In my previous post I meant to imply in that 'concession' comment, that I agree having something functionally similar but aesthetically different is a good thing. Where we differ is whether or not that constitutes something that's powerful enough to overcome the natural imbalance in the holy trinity.

I don't think it's potent enough to do that all on it's own.
(which is what prompted me to mention that 'sweeping and drastic changes to fundamentals' comment earlier)

And you do? Am I right, or am I putting words into your mouth?





Edited, Mar 16th 2010 6:34pm by Zemzelette
#34 Mar 16 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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I guess. :/ I would really like them to add another healer though. Right now we only have 1. Imo, the biggest fault in XI was the sheer number of DD jobs versus the extremely small number of tanks (2-3, realistically for content players wanted to do) and healers (1-2, with Dnc later adding a 3rd). How many DD? Not counting Ninja/Warriors/Dancers, but counting Summoners, we had 17 DD jobs (20 total). That is NOT BALANCED.

Made life pretty annoying.

At least with WoW, now, we have 3 tank -capable jobs out of 10. Sure, most people playing those classes choose not to tank, but they COULD.


I understand where your coming from...but how many different ways can you cast cure. The same spell being cast by a character with different color armor only goes so far. To me it seems that between conjurer and THU they have allowed for WHM, BLM, SCH, and RDM through combining them in some fashion. You could prolly get bard in there somehow and SMN most likely comes from being a high level mage class.

The beauty of all this is that you could prolly combine a high level lancer with gladiator skills and get Ajax of Telamon. Endless possibilities




Edited, Mar 16th 2010 6:36pm by aurormnk
#35 Mar 16 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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By holy trinity do you mean Tank, DD, Heals?

I don't think it would need to. What I'm interested in is promoting a decent enough pool of tanks and healers so that you don't have massive amounts of DD waiting hours for groups whenever they don't want to do solo content.

My comments about both being useful in a group had nothing to do with a small 6-8 group system (though, I can see a Conjurer and dedicated healer being useful with 8 players). It was meant more for the large-scale combat similar to God-Fights in FFXI or raids in WoW. Because while the conjurer would be fine for a group healer, population-intensive fights tend to prejudice against hybrid classes in favor of dedicated ones, which was true in both WoW and FFXI. How often did your Rdms melee, cast nukes or heal?

So, to answer your question, I don't think it would alter overall group configuration for everyday activities. Nor do I think that's a problem.

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The same spell being cast by a character with different color armor only goes so far.


This isn't what I suggested at all, which is specifically why I made the comment about all DD being happy with one job. They wouldn't, because play style matters. This is just as true with Healers as it is with Damage Dealers and Tanks. I didn't play a Rng in XI, even when it was super OP, because I didn't enjoy the class. And neither did many others, such as those that continued to play Drg, even though they were very underpowered.

Otherwise, every single MMO would consist of 3 or 4 classes. Tank, Healer, DD (which might get split into Magic and Melee DD).

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 6:41pm by idiggory
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#36 Mar 16 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Totally agree with idiggory. Having more variety in the way a role plays will encourage more to try that role. No, adding a second job won't magically double the number of healers/tanks, but it will help. It also provides another job for those healers and tanks that already leveled, to do so again if they want to. Why is having 17 Damage dealers a good thing, but you don't think adding a couple different ways to heal/tank would be good?
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#37 Mar 16 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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If you have 20% willing to heal and there is only 1 job to heal with the numbers wouldn't change since there is only one option. If you introduce more healing classes the % will still remain pretty close despite there being more options. Adding more classes to fill a role will just split that 20% into the % of people who prefer one healer type vs the rest.

The holy trinity refers to the available roles. Heal, tank or DD. The ratio of healers and support jobs to melee and ranged DD will always be low. Even in raid style settings if you look at what classes and talents compose large raids the evidence still supports DD heavy groups.

I'm all for having more classes that are suited to cover more than one of these roles, but I don't think it would change the base of what players want to do.
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#38 Mar 16 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If you have 20% willing to heal and there is only 1 job to heal with the numbers wouldn't change since there is only one option. If you introduce more healing classes the % will still remain pretty close despite there being more options. Adding more classes to fill a role will just split that 20% into the % of people who prefer one healer type vs the rest.


Like I said, that is NOT 20% healers, it is 20% WILLING TO HEAL INDEPENDENT OF CLASS.

If you have 20% willing to heal, but 10% of them hate Conjurer, you end up with 10% players who will actually heal.

Thanks for playing.
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#39 Mar 16 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I used it the exact same way you did. 20% willing to heal. If there is only 1 class capable of healing and half of them don't like the class then there is really only 10% willing to heal and not 20%.

idiggory wrote:
Like I said, that is NOT 20% healers, it is 20% WILLING TO HEAL INDEPENDENT OF CLASS.


If 100 people play a game and 20% of them want to heal, how many will play the only healing class available in the game? How many would play a healing class if there were 17 healing classes available and only 2 DD classes? The numbers remain the same. The amount of people spread across each class changes. You don't want more options for healing classes. You want more people to play these healing classes. Its not about balance in the holy trinity.

idiggory wrote:
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#40 Mar 16 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Otherwise, every single MMO would consist of 3 or 4 classes. Tank, Healer, DD (which might get split into Magic and Melee DD)


The thing is, every MMO does contain these classes, just because you do a likkle jig and look like a fairy and somehow you heal your comrades doesn't mean that your not healing. You dress the class up in different garb, create different animations and call it the snot mage, different than the whm because all his healing is done by feeding his party the fresh boogers picked from his nose.

I know what your saying digs but XI did a good job in making the heals look different, expect the class customization to allow for something similar.

Also in XI, you generally have 1 healer and possibly a sub for the just in case moments. Assuming something similar in XIV which isn't an outlandish assumption, you will have 1 healer for every party. Thats 1.5 out of 6-8 that needs to heal. 1 in 6 is only 17% of the population and 1 in 8 is 12.5% do we really need many more than is required?
#41 Mar 16 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I used it the exact same way you did. 20% willing to heal. If there is only 1 class capable of healing and half of them don't like the class then there is really only 10% willing to heal and not 20%.


No. There are different ways you can go about healing. They may be interested in healing, they've healed in other games, but if they don't like the way the only class in a game does it, then they won't heal in that game. But if there was another class available, with a different way of healing, then they migth be interested. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Just because someone likes healing does not mean they will do it no matter what. Just because someone doesn't like how a particular healer class plays, does not mean they're noit interested in healing, does not mean they won't heal if given another option.
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#42 Mar 16 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, that is what I mean by Holy Trinity.

We agree that 'people don't have to wait for groups' is a good measuring stick. I think we still disagree in how to accomplish that, but ultimately we do want the same thing.
#43 Mar 16 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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'Trinity' theories are always hard to prove either way. I, for example, have experienced both ends of the spectrum being discussed here. For the side who favors the notion that adding new healing-oriented classes would increase the potential population of healers, I can say that I agree when I played LotR. I hated their original class, the ministrel. I ended up playing as a loremaster (originally billed as a backup healer/cc strategist) until their first expansion allowed for the creation of a healer/dps hybrid called the runekeeper. The runekeeper's style of healing was more my style and having enjoyed it, started full-timing that class as a healer. So there, 1 more healer in the that world. However, even with more choices, you have to end up facing the community. If the community feels that the ministrel is still a better healer for A,B, and C - you can bet your **** those parties who want the 'right' setup will make you sit till they're desperate (Just like what FFXI summoners had to put up with back in the day - I was one of them too). Granted, things over time were rebalanced, friends allowed you to try, etc, but the point remains. ****, if you want to bring WoW in as an example, healing in the original pre-expansion proved to be a ***** as far as preference went. Priests healed everything fine, paladins tended to be mana-starved, and druids... were druids were another cup of tea all together. They were one of the best raid healers, but at the same time no one wanted to take you on a 5 man (because the things back then that gave that class its flavour didn't jive with the people who wanted a smooth, issue free run). Blizz's way of fixing this (for better or for worse) was bringing the healer types closer together. They had less overall uniqueness, but it was easier for the raid to deal with not having certain numbers of the classes. It's a balancing act to sat the least.
#44 Mar 16 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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Me wrote:
Like I said, that is NOT 20% healers, it is 20% WILLING TO HEAL INDEPENDENT OF CLASS


Filth wrote:
I used it the exact same way you did. 20% willing to heal. If there is only 1 class capable of healing and half of them don't like the class then there is really only 10% willing to heal and not 20%.


No. You didn't. Read it again, specifically the part in caps. If 20% of players are willing to heal, in general, independent of the classes offered, but only 10% of them like the only job available, then 20% are willing to heal but only 10% will be healers.
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#45 Mar 16 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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And as said, just because 10% don't like the only healing class, doesn't mean they aren't willing to heal, just not as that job/style.
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#46 Mar 16 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Default
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If there is only one healing class, what are the other options? Where do the other 10% go? WoW? lol
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#47 Mar 16 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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They either quit or they play Tanks/DD classes that they do enjoy. Or they still play Conjurer and refuse to heal.
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#48 Mar 16 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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My thought was that you would build a Thief from all of the abilities of the base classes. All the pieces are there...
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#49 Mar 16 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

In my previous post I meant to imply in that 'concession' comment, that I agree having something functionally similar but aesthetically different is a good thing. Where we differ is whether or not that constitutes something that's powerful enough to overcome the natural imbalance in the holy trinity.

I don't think it's potent enough to do that all on it's own.
(which is what prompted me to mention that 'sweeping and drastic changes to fundamentals' comment earlier)

And you do? Am I right, or am I putting words into your mouth?


I think it is. Frankly, a lot of it has to do with masculinity and gender roles. You're looking at a genre that is very heavily populated by males and then looking at roles like damage, tank, support, and heal. Right off the bat, most people are going to identify damage and tank as the more masculine roles, but this isn't a salient observation on its own (there's no shortage of counselors, teachers, doctors, etc. who are men). So the packaging of these roles is an incredibly important factor, especially when considering other role models, particularly in the fantasy genres.

Basically, most players want a character who is kind of a badass. If your only heal and support options involve white flowy robes and sparkly magic, minstrels with flutes and lutes, dancers in frilly garb, etc... you get the idea. It doesn't paint the image of a badass as crafted by our society. Maybe a bit moreso for Japanese players? I don't know. But you could significantly increase the number of players who were willing to play healing and support roles by dressing those roles up in ways that appeal to more of the playerbase.

Hybrid roles that allow players to be a little badass at times but still maintaining primary support roles would also probably help.
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#50 Mar 16 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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I never really thought of it that way, but now that I am, one thing pops out at me. In WoW, the healers kinda look like this:

Paladin- Wears Plate Armor.
Priest- Wears Cloth Robes.
Druid- Wears Leather, but looks like a tree.
Shaman- Wears Mail.

As for the way the heals look, the Paladin/Priest's normal heals look white/yellow/gold. Kinda stereotypical.

The Shaman and Druid have heals that are green and have leaf-looking effects in them. The Shaman's jump between targets, creating arcs as they move.

I'm not going to go into each little unique effect, but that's the gist of it. Players that like the "strong" aspect might aesthetically prefer a Paladin, since he wears armor as heavy and big as the Warriors/Death Knights/other Paladins. Plus, the idea behind the class is that they are warrior priests--they've been on the front lines and seen terrible things.

Priests are clearly the most "feminine" of the healers. Kinda a similar bookish sense you would consider a stereotypical catholic priest to be.

Shaman are the most "savage." They don't generally lean towards civilization, and they are the ones you could see doing some crazy voodoo action in a dark hut during a thunderstorm.

Druids are the bridge between the three, I think. They come from long-standing civilization (though not an technologically advanced one, in terms of engineering) that reveres nature. They are prone to action, like Shaman, but still study and evaluate their options, like Priests. And they are often battle-hardened. Plus, they turn into TREES.

In ways, you really can be a badass healer if you like that aesthetic. This, plus the diversity in mechanics, could be a decent reason why WoW has a much higher percentage of healers than XI did.
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#51 Mar 16 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
My guess is that there will be a dagger class. Daggers are pretty basic in the 'tools you use to kill things' category. I'm also guessing it won't be thief this time around and probably not have much to do with stealing things. I'm guessing however it will still have the rear attack for lots of damage type ability, because that's hard to disassociate from daggers. Assassin maybe, rogue maybe, who knows.
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