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No Auto-Attacking?Follow

#1 Mar 16 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Default
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I do really hope they pick up the pace on combat this time around.

Some things I've read make me worry about this, tho...

Liiike ~ I can't remember where, but I read that there wasn't going to be any auto-attacking in XIV?
If that's true, will we just stand there in between ability cooldowns?

Is this true?
#2Skeptic, Posted: Mar 16 2010 at 12:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Where have you been?
#3 Mar 16 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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If I said under a rock would you answer my question?
#4 Mar 16 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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Last we heard, there wasn't going to be an auto-attack in the game. This may change, or the game will be made in such a way that you'll have little to no wait for cooldowns.
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#5 Mar 16 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you very much, Caia.

I suppose the most we can do is hope for the best~
#6 Mar 16 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Default
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The way I understand it there are no auto attacks. You choose whichever attack you want to use based on a bar that fills up. I'm gonna go ahead and call it AP(action points) just for ease of explanation. Weaponskills will still use TP like in FFXI, but normal attacks and spells have an AP cost and can't be executed without enough of this stored up. The more powerful the attack or spell the higher the AP cost.

Hard to tell this early in the game, but based on the gameplay we've seen thus far the basic abilities(normal sword swing) seem to take a little longer to activate than the auto attacks in FFXI. I was kind of hoping for faster gameplay as well, but its possible they will adjust this during alpha/beta. Cross your fingers.
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#7 Mar 16 2010 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Seems likely to be similar to FFXIII. Somewhat turnbased, but you can select actions for several turns at a time.
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#8 Mar 16 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I am going to say it will be more like White Knight Chronicles' system from watching Gamescom videos
#9 Mar 16 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Seems likely to be similar to FFXIII. Somewhat turnbased, but you can select actions for several turns at a time.


I haven't played much XIII, but I don't think you'll be able to queue up multiple actions at the same time. XIII kinda works on a 'computer select my next best action and if necessary I will change it' kinda thing. XIV will require you to select your next action for almost everything. Some abilities will be based on stance, some on TP or AP(whatever the other power bar will be called) and some moves which are reactive or require specific positioning ala sneak attack/overwhelm. In XIII you're confined to whatever you're fighting at the time, but in XIV another mob may wander into the battle area. Queueing up a strong AoE attack could prove deadly.
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#10 Mar 16 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, they already said that they would allow you to queue up multiple actions at a time. I imagine you'll have to do them manually or have preset queue macros though, unlike XIII.

It may not be an especially useful tool, and I'll be glad if it isn't. Though I assume you can change actions that you haven't yet executed.
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#11 Mar 16 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Being able to queue will be helpful, since movement is part of the game. Marauders aside, it would be useful if you could set it up and then, when the opponent moves, travel with him while you continue to attack. Queuing wouldn't be hard to do while moving for PC users probably, but it could be for PS3 users.
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#12 Mar 16 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Actually, they already said that they would allow you to queue up multiple actions at a time.


Not sure how I feel about that. I was hoping for something more involved than queue up a few actions and go afk. I guess we'll see how it all works together soon, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if I was disappointed.

idiggory wrote:
Being able to queue will be helpful, since movement is part of the game. Marauders aside, it would be useful if you could set it up and then, when the opponent moves, travel with him while you continue to attack. Queuing wouldn't be hard to do while moving for PC users probably, but it could be for PS3 users.


It just sounds boring to me. Queue up a few moves and /follow the mob. I don't think movement would be any different on PS3 unless the keyboard is somehow different.
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#13 Mar 16 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
I recall reading about queuing multiple actions as well. I don't recall which interview it was from, but I'm fairly certain it was direct from the devs.

That having been said, I think getting in the habit of queuing your actions for the next [insert length of time > 3 seconds here] would be a poor practice to get into.

And as far as the OP's question goes...no, you won't be standing around doing nothing between ability cooldowns. No auto-attack means that you'll have to trigger your normal melee attacks manually for each one. It doesn't mean there are no normal melee attacks...just that they're not automatically executed. The queuing system will mean that you're not going to be required to spam your normal attack button to get optimal dps because you can hit the button early and the attack will go off when the swing timer says it's allowed to go off.
#14 Mar 16 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Default
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How much queuing do you think would actually be going on? Unless you can queue in move commands and so forth it's not gonna see much use for anything more complicated than farming.

Imagine pulling as a Bard in ffxi. There is no possible way that you could queue up all the actions required to do that successfully. You can't queue a heal for someone who hasn't been injured yet...you could but do i need to finish this thought? The thing is that most jobs in XIV wont be able to be played like a monk or dragoon in XI, they involve more player input.
#15 Mar 16 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It just sounds boring to me. Queue up a few moves and /follow the mob. I don't think movement would be any different on PS3 unless the keyboard is somehow different.


This sounds a little unrealistic to me. If I had to guess, SE won't allow us to /follow the mobs around while queuing up a bunch of moves. You have to remember that placement in relation to the mob is important in many ways, whether you need to be behind it, in front of it, directly in the middle of the party of mobs, etc. Either way, this is a huge improvement from the FFXI melee lazy route of clicking attack and waiting for your TP bar to fill up. This requires strategy. For those who plan to party, if they just line up a bunch of stuff and /follow, no one is going to put up with it. I think this is going to involve more teamwork than is being recognized, or at least I seriously hope so. SE has stated that they want us to consider more closely the tactics and group effort of battle this time around when we're not soloing, and since we'll be facing parties of mobs as well, this method will make for an interesting dynamic, in my opinion.
#16 Mar 16 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Imagine pulling as a Bard in ffxi. There is no possible way that you could queue up all the actions required to do that successfully. You can't queue a heal for someone who hasn't been injured yet...you could but do i need to finish this thought? The thing is that most jobs in XIV wont be able to be played like a monk or dragoon in XI, they involve more player input.


See, that's the beauty of it. You need to learn how to use the system, when to use it, what order to queue etc.

For example, as a healer, you won't be queuing heals for attacks that haven't happened, no. But you can do other things, like cast support spells or attack spells. If you know your first heal won't cover the full damage, you can queue another. It allows you to be slightly more proactive.

The point isn't to queue up 20 seconds of a fight. It's to alleviate the load a little so that you can focus on different things. And part of this is learning how to effectively use it.

Finally, just because you queue something doesn't mean it can go off without help. Some spells/attacks will require you to stand still. But the game encourages movement, so you are going to need to be attentive to your queue, or you can potentially lose out on damage from these actions pausing or canceling.
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#17 Mar 16 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Actually, they already said that they would allow you to queue up multiple actions at a time.


Not sure how I feel about that. I was hoping for something more involved than queue up a few actions and go afk. I guess we'll see how it all works together soon, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if I was disappointed.



I doubt you could queue up enough attacks to go afk for any length of time. Plus, if you want to be effective, you need to do more than /follow the enemy. Maintaing the right distance is important, attacking from behind may be more effective, especially with some moves relying on it, and such.
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#18 Mar 16 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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I'm actually really excited to see this system. It clearly isn't just a copy of WoW's system (or whatever WoW copied it from), which is what every other MMO has been, but it also isn't just XI's system. SE is trying to do something new and interesting. Even if it turns out to not work well, I'll still give them credit for that.
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#19 Mar 16 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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The point isn't to queue up 20 seconds of a fight. It's to alleviate the load a little so that you can focus on different things. And part of this is learning how to effectively use it.


^This exactly

In my brd example, it'd b nice to queue min and mad but queuing up 10 moves just isn't gonna happen. What would be nice is if you could interrupt/pause your queue while you do something else more pertinent. But already this seems like a more customizable auto-attack. I personally abhor auto attack, I'd much rather have a button masher just because it stimulates more. Auto-attack did have its advantages, it really helped to have it going as pld or nin while u were busy doing other stuffs
#20 Mar 16 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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Raymund wrote:
Maintaing the right distance is important, attacking from behind may be more effective, especially with some moves relying on it, and such.


Yeah, I stated this earlier in the thread. Its the exact reason why I don't support queueing up moves. I'd like the combat to be more reactive and reflexive than just picking a few moves and waiting 20 seconds to add a few more to the chain.

Quote:
I'm actually really excited to see this system. It clearly isn't just a copy of WoW's system (or whatever WoW copied it from), which is what every other MMO has been, but it also isn't just XI's system. SE is trying to do something new and interesting.


Its not a copy of other MMOs, but queueing up moves has been in quite a few other RPGs and is by no means new and innovative. Its actually sounding really close to what XIII is like. I don't wanna be spamming buttons, but at the same time I don't want to feel like I'm being lead through a battle with little to no interaction. There are many people against auto attacking, but it just makes sense to me.

If there is a mob in front of you then obviously you're going to swing at it. Instead of queueing up several attacks it would make more sense to select your next attack that would replace your normal auto attack. What would also be welcome are more attacks or abilities that trigger on certain events during the battle.
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#21 Mar 16 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Raymund wrote:
Maintaing the right distance is important, attacking from behind may be more effective, especially with some moves relying on it, and such.


Yeah, I stated this earlier in the thread. Its the exact reason why I don't support queueing up moves. I'd like the combat to be more reactive and reflexive than just picking a few moves and waiting 20 seconds to add a few more to the chain.


Just because you're given the option to do it doesn't mean you have to use it. If those of us who recall the statement about queuing up multiple attacks are correct and if it's a feature that makes it to the retail release of the game, the people who make excessive use of it to the point where they're bungling fights because they've overqueued and the situation has changed are going to be labeled as lazy, poor players. Count on it.
#22 Mar 16 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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Aurelius wrote:
Just because you're given the option to do it doesn't mean you have to use it.


My fingers are crossed.
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#23 Mar 16 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to clarify something about FF 13 battle system. You can not 'queue and go afk', if you went afk for a couple of seconds in FF13, you'd be dead. Its extremely fast passed, and you have to choose all your moves or choose an 'auto attack' which chooses from a few abilities to queue up (though this isn't the smartest way to play..). With that said, i doubt FF 14 is in any much danger of that. And honestly ff13 is probably one of the best ff battles systems ive ever played...extremely fun and challenging. It will also make melee jobs more engaging, I don't know how many times I could just walk away as sam and monk in ff11 and take a **** and no one would even notice.
#24 Mar 16 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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I like how there won't be auto-attack in this game for a few reasons. First melee fighters(at least I would/will) will have a more entertaining time fighting because in reality in FFXI for some of the front line jobs I could go AFK for a long time and no one would care or notice. Second, because of the new positioning element melee fighters will always be thinking about the best spot to attack, so just moving your character and not being able to pick your attacks would be boring, but maybe I just feel that way. Lastly, I like the idea that I will have more control over my character instead of mindlessly hitting a monster.

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 8:03pm by MrStyles
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#25 Mar 16 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Its not a copy of other MMOs, but queueing up moves has been in quite a few other RPGs and is by no means new and innovative. Its actually sounding really close to what XIII is like. I don't wanna be spamming buttons, but at the same time I don't want to feel like I'm being lead through a battle with little to no interaction. There are many people against auto attacking, but it just makes sense to me.


Except that you refuse to consider that queuing may work in any way other than selecting the next 10 abilities and alt-tabbing to the internet. SE's vision for the game is to always have you doing something, not just standing around. Considering that is their mission, then you should assume that queuing will enable you to do that more efficiently, not the opposite. You'll probably be able to queue a little, whether that simply means 1 second or 10 seems to be the biggest question.

And how would queuing make you feel like you're being led through a battle? You still have to select the abilities, you still have to move, you still have to watch your surroundings and bars. Because you can choose how you will act a second before you do it, you are suddenly being led? I always try and predict my actions for the immediate future when playing games. Otherwise you'd go OOM, or waste spells/abilities/consumables. Or ***** up your ability orders. Etc.

If you can queue for 10 seconds, you probably won't use every bit of it. It would just be really helpful if you could queue 5 attacks for times when you are running in and out of range, so one goes off every time you enter it.
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#26 Mar 16 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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I think FFXIII battle system is great, but thats besides the point here.

I think FFXIII is a good hint to what kind of battle system we can expect for in FFXIV. Lets compare some of the similarities with some of the information we already know about the battle system.

1. Some magic spells cost TP, (even though TP is harder to come by in FFXIII than it will be in FFXIV)
2. Queuing up actions (take away the auto queue thats on FFXIII, and I would expect something like that)
3. Actions also having a AP cost (which corresponds with your queue bar, it limits how much you can queue up at the same time)


As someone else said you can't go afk in FFXIII or you will die, and despite the queue bar it is still fast paced, without feeling like a button mash action game.

Now I am not saying this will be the exact same battle system, but look at the elements in FFXIII and it matches with everything they said. Only difference is the FFXIV system will be more advanced with distances making a difference instead of FFXIII where the distance makes no difference. Also other differences like you not being able to queue actions on different mobs in the same queue bar, which could be easily fixed. For example you can't queue up fire on Mob A and blizzard on mob B on the same queue bar, you can only target 1 mob on FFXIII.
#27 Mar 16 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
I think FFXIII battle system is great, but thats besides the point here.

I think FFXIII is a good hint to what kind of battle system we can expect for in FFXIV. Lets compare some of the similarities with some of the information we already know about the battle system.

1. Some magic spells cost TP, (even though TP is harder to come by in FFXIII than it will be in FFXIV)
2. Queuing up actions (take away the auto queue thats on FFXIII, and I would expect something like that)
3. Actions also having a AP cost (which corresponds with your queue bar, it limits how much you can queue up at the same time)


As someone else said you can't go afk in FFXIII or you will die, and despite the queue bar it is still fast paced, without feeling like a button mash action game.

Now I am not saying this will be the exact same battle system, but look at the elements in FFXIII and it matches with everything they said. Only difference is the FFXIV system will be more advanced with distances making a difference instead of FFXIII where the distance makes no difference. Also other differences like you not being able to queue actions on different mobs in the same queue bar, which could be easily fixed. For example you can't queue up fire on Mob A and blizzard on mob B on the same queue bar, you can only target 1 mob on FFXIII.


I have to agree that system in XIII was brilliant and I can actually see something like this working beautifully in XIV, didn't they even show a video from alpha of a mob being sent into a stagger-like mode? I could be wrong.

But the problem I see where only selecting one target isn't really too big of an issue imo. For example player A and player B both need cure however you only have access to single target spell. Well instead of waiting for all 5 bars to charge enter the command early and set off 1 or 2 cures on target at a time then switch to other target player. I think it was done with triangle on ps3 didn't really even notice it did that until Ch.11 didn't remember seeing it in tutorial neither. But I think system is best I've seen in any FF in a long time. Plus ability to change roles like Nuker to Healer sounds as simple as the change of equipment for this purpose. Could see a lot of /equip macros if this is the case tho.
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#28 Mar 16 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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I for one am glad that I don't fully understand all the nuances of the FFXIV battle system before I even play it. I'm looking forward to a brand new experience and learning the new tricks. And I hope its a lot different from FFXI. I want to go into FFXIV being a complete noob. :D
#29 Mar 16 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Something that I don't think has been pointed out (I'm not gonna lie, I skimmed a few of the longer posts), is that if they do go with a system similar to XIII, at any point during your ATB bar charge (which in this case will likely just be a swing/action timer), you can force whatever moves in the queue to execute and the left over ATB bar goes into your next round. While this won't work as cleanly in an MMO setting, I think it will be very likely something like this will be available... or at the very least, as has been said, a way to quickly cancel and/or change your moves.

If they do something that's even remotely similar, I won't be sorry to see auto-attack go. I'm a little ashamed to admit I've died in FFXIII quite a few times in normal random encounters because of one poor choice I've made (just one more attack round, I don't need to heal yet!!) in a battle... I hope this challenge and need to be aware of the battlefield at all times comes into play in XIV.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 1:48am by dalm
#30 Mar 17 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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I just hope it doesn't turn into an ability spam/button mash fest like WOW or other similar MMOs... skill quickly becomes who can hit the function keys in the right order fastest under those sorts of systems. Personally, I enjoyed/appreciated having time to strategize/adapt while auto-attacking in XI.
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#31 Mar 17 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
Except that you refuse to consider that queuing may work in any way other than selecting the next 10 abilities and alt-tabbing to the internet. SE's vision for the game is to always have you doing something, not just standing around.


I never said you have to alt-tab to the internet. It really doesn't matter what you do. The point is that many of the things you might do could be relating to your positioning, stance or some sort of reactive abilities that are not immediately available but become available due to something that happens during battle. If their vision is to always have you doing something then what better way is there but to select each action when its available?

Quote:
And how would queuing make you feel like you're being led through a battle? You still have to select the abilities, you still have to move, you still have to watch your surroundings and bars. Because you can choose how you will act a second before you do it, you are suddenly being led?


I like to select the actions I use at the point I'd like to use them. There is a more interactive feel to the game when you do this as opposed to selecting several moves and waiting til they are complete. It should take you more than one second to queue several actions so I'll take this as exaggeration. Even if it is such a short time then there really is no purpose for it anyway.

Quote:
If you can queue for 10 seconds, you probably won't use every bit of it. It would just be really helpful if you could queue 5 attacks for times when you are running in and out of range, so one goes off every time you enter it.


Go to youtube and watch a video of XIV gameplay with characters attacking mobs. Notice how long it takes for them to execute moves. Normal melee attacks were taking around 5-6 seconds between rounds in the footage I saw of a gladiator. This is just the basic melee swing and not a more powerful move. Queueing up 5 moves is 25-30 seconds of battle for basic melee alone. Chances are something else will become available before that time is up and you'll have to change or cancel all or parts of your chain. While its not proving that it is ineffective, it definitely does not show that it is as effective or better than just waiting and selecting attacks as you go. Seems kinda pointless.
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#32 Mar 17 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it has already been pointed out to you that the length between swings is mostly because people didn't know what they were doing, and were inputting commands that they weren't able to use.

Either way, 5-6 seconds is not much longer than for weapons in FFXI. If you're assuming that delay will function like in XI, then you have no basis for that assumption.
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#33 Mar 17 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it has already been pointed out to you that the length between swings is mostly because people didn't know what they were doing, and were inputting commands that they weren't able to use.


This is correct. Whoever was playing was spamming abilities they didn't have the energy for, but the attacks still went off when they did get enough energy so it really doesn't make much of a difference. Its like having refresh up and spamming a spell that you're 3 mp short of. The cast will start as soon as you get that tic of mp assuming there is no penalty for trying to use a spell or ability that you don't have the mp or energy for in XIV.

Quote:
Either way, 5-6 seconds is not much longer than for weapons in FFXI. If you're assuming that delay will function like in XI, then you have no basis for that assumption.


I'm not assuming anything. I don't remember stating that the two would work the same way. What I did say was that I'd be happier if they don't and in fact would like XIV to be slightly faster than XI was if anything.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'd like the combat to be more reactive and reflexive than just picking a few moves and waiting 20 seconds to add a few more to the chain.


If XIV turns out to have a battle system like XIII then I doubt I'll be playing =/

Edited, Mar 18th 2010 1:50am by FilthMcNasty
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#34 Mar 18 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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There's no auto-attack in FFXIII, tell me how long are you waiting around for cool down time in that game? my point is, unless you know how the battle system dissects, you can't have a proper opinion on it and up to this point in time, we know next to nothing about it so keep your chin up, flap your ears and cross your eyes and you'll see what happens.
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#35 Mar 18 2010 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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144 posts
I like the idea, kids wont go afk anymore.... hopefully
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Server: Alexander
Character Name: Lovestospoon
Level: 75 WHM
Crafts: 100 Cooking
#36 Mar 18 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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132 posts
Lovestospoon wrote:
I like the idea, kids wont go afk anymore.... hopefully


I take offence to that. It was always nice being able to run to the toilet or getting a drink after using a WS and all my abilities were on cooldown :P
#37 Mar 18 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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257 posts
I'm sure there will be some 3rd party app that'll do auto attack for you. I'm betting it'll be as common as the windower.
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FFXI(retired 04/2006): Epedemicoptikz, Phoenix Server, 75 SAM/NIN/WAR

#38 Mar 18 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
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132 posts
Unfortunate for PS3 users :P
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