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FFXIV v. FFXI Economy Follow

#1 Mar 17 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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I'm really hoping in FFXIV that gil isn't nearly as important as in FFXI. It seems to be different, but so far.. I have no idea.

In FFXI, to level a job, you had to spend tons and tons of money... Just to be effective against a mob. I'm really hoping in FFXIV, you work to get your stuff. Not buy everything. It actually kind of made it stressful to play FFXI when you didn't have a way to make money. It really did affect the casual player. I do understand the importance of money in a PVE mmo, however, the auction house shouldn't be a main source of getting items as it was in FFXI.

#2 Mar 17 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
The gil requirements for FFXI would, I would hope, have fallen under scrutiny of the developers when they went about creating a new game that broke away from FFXI's "too much time" aspects. There were two primary (non-RMT related) issues that helped shape the FFXI economy in a negative way. The first was low drops rates on pretty much everything. The second was a fully player-driven economy. It wasn't until CoP that players paid any serious attention to potions/ethers, for example. And with good reason...they were time consuming to farm the materials for which meant they were expensive, and they were also inventory hogs. Gear was also a concern...a lot of the gear players wore was crafted. When you look at the time required to do base level farming (ie. beehive chips, skins for leather, etc.) in addition to a sorely lacking gathering system (wood, ore), it's not surprising that players would look for any opportunity they could find to bypass that process. That meant charging top gil for anything/everything you had that was worth selling. The demand was always present...the supply process was altogether too onerous.

I made a relative fortune for a brief time as a high level alchemist with ~55-60 goldsmithing skill breaking down jewelry for silver ingots and gathering materials for firesand from regional vendors here and there. This was shortly after the change that allowed arrows/bolts to be stacked into quivers and bullets into bags. On a good day I could make twelve stacks of silver bullets for < 20k gil and turn around and sell them on auction within an hour or two for 200-250k gil. That lasted for less than a week before too many other people caught on and the market tanked. I used to have screenshots of the sales history on stacks of silver bullet bags where mine was the only name listed.

So you might think based on that little bit of reminiscing that all was well and good with the economy if someone could make off like a bandit like that. Except...it was a brief high period in a long, painful slog just getting my crafting skills to the point where I could do that. For starters, the profitability came from HQs which required something like 81 alchemy and 55 goldsmithing to get on a semi-reliable basis. Just getting my skills to that point required hundreds of hours and hundreds of thousands of gil. You know something is wrong with the game mechanics when the best place to get mid tier ingots is breaking them down from vendor-sold jewelry as opposed to gathering the ore in the field and smelting it.

I would expect, however, that with disciplines specifically revolving around gathering that the gathering system will be more robust. I would also expect that drop rates on materials across the board will be better, and based on what SE has said I also expect there to be a much wider variety of gear that is also more accessible. Increase supply and maintain or reduce demand and prices will drop. I think the ideal situation is one where you can keep your character going with the necessities (travel, repairs for gear, reasonable consumables) just from what you manage to pick up here and there while doing other things. I never want to play another game where I have to grind for hours just to fund consumables for a 3 hour xp/merit party.
#3 Mar 17 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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According to the interview with the developer,
there is durability system for the weapons that we use. Therefore, I assum that it will cost alot more money than FFXI. Especially for the type of player who going to work on multiple skills, they have to carry different type of weapon for that skill and it will cost descent amount of money.

They also mentioned that their will be no Auction. Person to Person trade system still exist but they haven't really mentioned about new system that will replace with Auction. I don't know how this going to affect the FFXIV economy.

#4 Mar 17 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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I hated that in Final Fantasy XI. When I was a newbie I farmed for months. I got rich and the gil lasted me until I was able to farm tornado scrolls at level 75. The economy was bad. I'm so sick of it. I really hope they improve the economy. That would be a plus.

I think less players would quit. Great idea. Hope Square really improves it this time.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 1:02pm by fusionfall
#5 Mar 17 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
hexid wrote:
According to the interview with the developer,
there is durability system for the weapons that we use. Therefore, I assum that it will cost alot more money than FFXI. Especially for the type of player who going to work on multiple skills, they have to carry different type of weapon for that skill and it will cost descent amount of money.

They also mentioned that their will be no Auction. Person to Person trade system still exist but they haven't really mentioned about new system that will replace with Auction. I don't know how this going to affect the FFXIV economy.



If repairing gear is too expensive, it will cost SE a tremendous number of subscribers. Gear repairs in games that use a durability system represent a persistent cost. If at any point a semi-intelligent player suddenly finds themselves unable to go out and fight because all of their gear is broken and they can't afford to repair it, something is wrong. It doesn't matter how many classes you're working on or how much gear is in your bags...you can only have one set of gear equipped at any one time and that one set of gear is the gear that will be suffering durability loss. The repair costs for someone leveling a gladiator will not be significantly different from those of someone leveling a gladiator, marauder, conjurer and blacksmith. The gear in your bags isn't likely to take durability damage...only the gear you have equipped.

SE has to know that repair costs have to be extremely reasonable (see also: negligible on all but the best gear), otherwise they're going to be swamped with complaints from angry players who are sick of farming in broken gear just so that they can afford to repair it. Durability is a currency sink. Nothing more, nothing less. Excluding endgame activity in very good gear, it's not a substantial cost to any one player, but take a little bit more gil out of the pockets of thousands of players every day paying their nominal sum to fully repair after a session and you end up with a very substantial amount of currency being funneled out of the economy. That leaves room for a substantial amount of currency to be funneled back into the economy by mob drops and guildleve rewards. That tends to reward skilled players (dying less = lower repair costs) without bankrupting not-so-skilled players.
#6 Mar 17 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Regarding durability... (I believe it was either an interview or on the ffxiv website itself)I thought classes like blacksmith and/or weaver will be able to repair gear while in a party/battle? If this is the case you may see a party include these trades clsses as well, being able to get experience/skill for the class as well as assisting the other party members. It might be interesting to see how this works when the game releases.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 12:27pm by Lefiont
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#7 Mar 17 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
Lefiont wrote:
Regarding durability... (I believe it was either an interview or on the ffxiv website itself)I thought classes like blacksmith and/or weaver will be able to repair gear while in a party/battle? If this is the case you may see a party include these trades clsses as well, being able to get experience/skill for the class as well as assisting the other party members. It might be interesting to see how this works when the game releases.


It has been confirmed that you will not be able to repair during a fight. DoH will be able to repair gear at the expense of durability on their tools. Exactly what will be involved in repairing those tools is yet to be seen...whether it's done with materials or at an NPC vendor we don't know, but it also stands to reason that there will be repair NPCs for those times when an appropriate DoH is not available.
#8 Mar 17 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping that repair tools for gear and weapons are not hard to find, or too expensive. I am really excited about the potential that XIV has as far as having a player run economy with dedicated crafting classes.
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#9 Mar 17 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that Aurelius pretty much summed it up in the first post. Fix the drop rates, don 't make the repair cost unreasonable and you can have an economy where there is potential to make a lot of gil, or to have just enough, based on what you choose to do.

In FFXI it took me almost a full year to make my first million. That of course was my own fault because I never took up a craft. I look forward to crafting in FFXIV and hopefully making some gil this time around.
I work 40+ hours a week IRL, I don't want to feel like I have to use all my gaming time "working" for gil, when I'd rather be doing something else like leveling a different job or a guildleve.
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#10 Mar 17 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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By the way, this is somewhat off topic but I wonder how this going to affect the economy.

Quote:
Crafters will have other unique abilities, such as being able to add their own colors or patterns to the equipment they make



If FFXIV is going to let the crafters add their name on item description.
Do you think the crafters who get popular among player will make their own brand and earn so much of profit that might affect the economy of FFXIV? =P
#11 Mar 17 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm guessing is that durability is tied to the effectiveness of gear (so, being at 100% on your weapon will make it do more damage than if it was at 50%). And I'm guessing that repairs can be made at NPCs.

But I'm also guessing that there won't be these NPCs in the field, and that they may not be accessible when doing a guildleve. So, a blacksmith would be useful to keep everyone going strong.

But, I could be wrong. But it seems weird that SE would specifically mention a BS being able to repair the gear of his party members (see the recent article where they talk about the new confirmation for a /check) if they weren't expecting that it would be needed. Of course, this could just be a preventative measure. It isn't uncommon in WoW, for instance, for someone to break their gear in a group because they haven't repaired in 2 weeks.

[EDIT]
Quote:
Do you think the crafters who get popular among player will make their own brand and earn so much of profit that might affect the economy of FFXIV?


No. Not unless SE creates some way for them to effectively advertise in game without it being spam (such as letting players "purchase" loading screens). And, even then, only if the products provided by players can actually vary, in the same way you would choose Tropicana Orange Juice over Minute Maid, or a Abercrombie shirt over a Walmart one.

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 3:16pm by idiggory
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#12 Mar 17 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think there will be a repair "cost". Whether or not Gil plays a part in the game, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure (from what I've gathered from interviews) that the player trade system is going to be paramount...which is why they aren't just "crafts" this time around, but actual classes.

For instance, as a Blacksmith in a group, you would be expected to repair gear along with performing your available combat skills. That's not to say you're going to be crafting while people are fighting, but you'll be utilizing all of your skills as part of the group effort.

In essense, the skilling up of a craft class is associated to gathering materials & crafting, rather than skilling up weapons as per the more conventional combat classes.

It's actually a very logical and sound system, to incorporate crafting elements as "classes" rather than actual skills and give them combat orientated abilities and skills. And because class changing involves weapon changing, it will be easily balanced to assume that not only could that blacksmith do that role, but could switch to say, Gladiator when repairs or Blacksmith-specific abilities aren't required.

I think this is why they've done away with the auction system, because crafting & "materials" are going to be the primary focus over a conventional currency economy.
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#13 Mar 17 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
By the way, this is somewhat off topic but I wonder how this going to affect the economy.

Quote:
Crafters will have other unique abilities, such as being able to add their own colors or patterns to the equipment they make


If FFXIV is going to let the crafters add their name on item description.
Do you think the crafters who get popular among player will make their own brand and earn so much of profit that might affect the economy of FFXIV? =P


Can I ask where you heard this? I've read it a few times and the idea has me very excited, however I don't know if it's just an idea that someone had that people took off and ran with or a true from-the-developers quote.
I hope it's true, just the idea of different colored blades alone would be worth it for me.
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#14 Mar 17 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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According to Famitsu Interview, the one of the aspects of FFXIV is that you don't recover MP and players move around about as they fight and eventually return to Aetheryte to restore HP and MP.

Based on the picture of following link, it looks like we can repair our gears by blacksmith at Aetheryte.

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk207/Meicyn/ffxiv.jpg


Edited, Mar 17th 2010 3:28pm by hexid

Edited, Mar 17th 2010 3:30pm by hexid
#15 Mar 17 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can I ask where you heard this? I've read it a few times and the idea has me very excited, however I don't know if it's just an idea that someone had that people took off and ran with or a true from-the-developers quote.
I hope it's true, just the idea of different colored blades alone would be worth it for me.



I got this information from following link.

Dengeki interview: http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=19635
#16 Mar 17 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks! Let's hope that those features make it past the alpha and beta. It's truly something I would love to see.
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#17 Mar 17 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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My main concern is about the mats to make all the gear we are talking about. If gatherers can only see nodes while they are that set as the harvesting job this is going to harshly limit the amount of supplies that can be harvested at higher levels if they need a group to get around with their limited fighting skills.

Now of those harvesting classes how many of them will be sharing what they harvest with the group? Probably not more then 1% to be honest. We are not new to mmo's, we all know how the greed of the auction house works by this point. This will do one thing, drive the prices of mats sky high, as well as setting the prices of crafted goods at a bank busting unseen record. Unless a very wide range of crafting mats drop off of mobs and are not strictly harvested.

In FFXI my main craft was CC though I had everything else I could to support it maxed out also. I would harvest and farm my own goods then craft and sell them. This got me 100% profit, Most likely a large portion of the people will do the same in FFXIV. Sure some will harvest just to sell mats, but that as I said before with a limited number of people being able to harvest will just drive prices up.
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#18 Mar 17 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting topic. I also think, as some people have allready said, that the main issue with FFXI's economy was the endless hours players needed to farm in order to get enough money to buy a "decent" gear. Also the low drop rates for some elemantal crafting (potions, for instance). Its ok to have low drop rates in hig level equipment, but **** it was hard to get enough drops of malboro vines (used to be an Alchemist in FFXI. At the same time, begginers had a hard time against high skilled players, who were able to make HQ crafts, making profits while selling cheap (HQ ment, in some way, decresing the production costs). This aspect made crafting a really hard task, because you usually had to spend a lot of gil, and profits (if any) turned to be so small that it wasn't profitable at all until achieving middle range skills.

In FFXI, there was a dilema. First, you wanted to level your favorite job, but you couldn´t do it with the proper gear. As leves increased, gear became more expensive. At some point you needed to diviate from the leveling gameplay to the getting money gameplay. There were four options (or the common ones at least): To farm Beastment's Seals, to farm crafting items (i.e. silks, yagudo necklaces, ores, you name it), being skilled enough to make profits with the craft of your choice, and the last but not the least, the horrible competiion for NM/HNM (which also implied having some good luck in order to get drops). As levels increased, so the aumount of gil in order to continue playing as a decent player.

So, defenetely, drop rates have to be acknowledged in FFXIV. Second, good gear (by this i mean the gear needed to play "decently" in PT) needs to be controlled by NPC's (in order to avoid inflation) or accesible to all players without having to spend months to afford it. As Aurelius pointed out, increasing the mob drop rate will be an important factor in order to pour money back into the economy, somehow counteracting the money being lost by NPC gear sells.

PS. Sorry for my grammar/orthography. English is not my native language.

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#19 Mar 18 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Smart players will start out as DoH or DoL.
#20 Mar 18 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They also mentioned that their will be no Auction. Person to Person trade system still exist but they haven't really mentioned about new system that will replace with Auction. I don't know how this going to affect the FFXIV economy.


:(

I really like the idea of auction houses in MMOs. Granted, I didn't really like how the one in FFXI worked, but it's a lot better than having nothing in my opinion. I still like having the option of setting up a bazaar while you're afk, etc, but this is not optimal, or for some of us even optional (leaving the computer running all night/all day when you're sleeping or at work).

I really think there needs to be some sort of centralised system for selling and buying that doesn't just involve /shouting or bazaar afk.

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 12:42am by Fetter

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 12:45am by Fetter
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#21 Mar 18 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll be the first to admit that my MMO experience is limited to just FFXI but anyone I've spoken to who has played other MMOs and FFXI has always said that the Auction house in FFXI was by far the best selling system they've encountered. I always thought it was pretty smooth, and I'll be curious to see how/if they replace it.
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#22 Mar 18 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
ReiThor wrote:
I'll be the first to admit that my MMO experience is limited to just FFXI but anyone I've spoken to who has played other MMOs and FFXI has always said that the Auction house in FFXI was by far the best selling system they've encountered. I always thought it was pretty smooth, and I'll be curious to see how/if they replace it.


The FFXI system was too limited. It also wasn't a true auction, but that's a minor detail. Only being able to list 7 things at a time was a bit of a pain. Having a different auction for each city was also a pain. The server resources allocated to the auction/mail system in FFXI were inadequate. I've played other MMOs where the mail system could lag, but nothing ever so bad as FFXI.

Some people like being able to engage in bidding wars for the stuff they want because there's always a chance that they can get a good deal. At the same time, some people turned the FFXI auction system into a bit of a mini-game, going around and bidding low in the hopes of snagging something well below the sales history price. Some people like being able to see the buyout price on everything so they can just go, look, decide and buy (or not) without messing around with rejected bids. I've engaged in bidding wars in other games and it's (almost) hilarious how some people get their knickers in a knot when you keep outbidding them. I wasn't doing it to be malicious or just to give them a hard time..I wanted a particular item and I was prepared to pay a substantial sum of currency for it (relatively speaking).

Given that the devs have said that they're doing something different from the auction system, I'm curious to see what they have in mind. I personally am not interested in seeing bazaars everywhere...I know a lot of people enjoyed the concept and had fun browsing the bazaar farms in Rolanberry and various other places, but it's not for me. I usually know what I want/need and prefer to be able to go to one place to find it.
#23 Mar 18 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Now i'm no economics major, in fact I hated the course MicroEcon101 that I had to take my first year in uni, so don't be too harsh on me if i say something stupid :P...but, couldn't they base the game's economy as it works in real life (albeit its not working very well these days), as in, you have a people controlled economy and the invisible hand controlling major aspects of it so as to not leave it to the "inexperienced" and watch it fall (just as FFXI did with its economy) -- so, since we're not going to have a government and "laws" and what have you in FFXIV, I would suggest they give each item a "highest selling price" and allow the players to auction off their stuff as was the case in FFXI. Wouldn't this be a solution to over inflation? I mean, say I have a bow, and I want to sell it - the "cap" on its selling price would be predetermined by the game and it will only allow me to sell it for 30k max (for example) but when i look on the auction house and see a few up there for 30k, I decide I wanna sell it faster and put it up there for 25k hoping for a quick snatch. This way there is still the auctioning of items and you don't have total control of the economy in this case.
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#24 Mar 18 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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There's some really intresting things to read about in this topic. I'm glad I posted this!

:D
#25 Mar 19 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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You have to keep in mind, and i'm sure you could debate how long this can be said to have been true, but the fact that the NA release was a full year after the JP release made a big difference as far as prices of things relative to 'new' players. The simultaeneous release will eliminate any problems there.

As for the economy itself I always felt having a more player based economy was better as it gave FFXI more depth and it added to the value of the crafts. And how else are we entrepeneurs to build our piles of wealth?

Sorry but fixing of prices of any kind is bad. The thing about inflation is that usually the prices of everything goes up so it's that much easier to make money.
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#26 Mar 20 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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@Timekill: true, that is the thing about inflation, in the real world but it didn't quite work out that nicely in FFXI. In fact if i remember correctly, crystals, at one point, were a steady state of income -- a lot of armor went way up in price eventually (armor, components for synthesis, items required for "discipline of the land", etc.) while crystals dropped immensely in price. Also, things didn't work out very nicely, for example, with cockatrice meat and mithkabobs where the price of a stack of meat was about the same as the price of a stack of kabobs (at one point, in Shiva server anyway). I think full control to the players isn't the best idea but i don't know how this problem can be remedied while keeping freedom because i too loved the AH system in FFXI but call a spade a spade, when it was bad, it was BAD.
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#27 Mar 20 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
@Timekill: true, that is the thing about inflation, in the real world but it didn't quite work out that nicely in FFXI. In fact if i remember correctly, crystals, at one point, were a steady state of income -- a lot of armor went way up in price eventually (armor, components for synthesis, items required for "discipline of the land", etc.) while crystals dropped immensely in price. Also, things didn't work out very nicely, for example, with cockatrice meat and mithkabobs where the price of a stack of meat was about the same as the price of a stack of kabobs (at one point, in Shiva server anyway). I think full control to the players isn't the best idea but i don't know how this problem can be remedied while keeping freedom because i too loved the AH system in FFXI but call a spade a spade, when it was bad, it was BAD.


I'm hoping they have NPC vendors that compete with players. They'll price competitively, and their prices change based on player sale. Of course this would be impossible if there's no "Auction house" or something that allows the computer detect how much items are actually being sold for.
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#28 Mar 20 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Default
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I think the most important thing is that items once equiped shouldn't be resold as it is in ffxi.
The whole economy works much better and allow crafters to make gil even on the lower crafts.

As for the repaircosts I remember in WoW beta the repairs were much higher and even more it was depended on how you got hit.
So someone who is tanking get hit most of the time and need to repair more.


Im really interested to see how they will handle the trading between players.
Auctions works good if you handle it right and tbh the system WoW use is pretty good and I really hope they use the mailsystem like they have in WoW cause going to the moghouse each time to see if your items are sold really was a downside.
#29 Mar 20 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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BTW, I forgot to mention this but Crysta Currency may affect the economy of FFXIV as well. Even though it was meant to be prevent RMT act, in game economy will get affected from it. However, I don't know if this is going to affect negatively or positively.
#30 Mar 20 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
@Timekill: true, that is the thing about inflation, in the real world but it didn't quite work out that nicely in FFXI. In fact if i remember correctly, crystals, at one point, were a steady state of income -- a lot of armor went way up in price eventually (armor, components for synthesis, items required for "discipline of the land", etc.) while crystals dropped immensely in price. Also, things didn't work out very nicely, for example, with cockatrice meat and mithkabobs where the price of a stack of meat was about the same as the price of a stack of kabobs (at one point, in Shiva server anyway). I think full control to the players isn't the best idea but i don't know how this problem can be remedied while keeping freedom because i too loved the AH system in FFXI but call a spade a spade, when it was bad, it was BAD.


I'm hoping they have NPC vendors that compete with players. They'll price competitively, and their prices change based on player sale. Of course this would be impossible if there's no "Auction house" or something that allows the computer detect how much items are actually being sold for.


You say that from a buyer's perspective. I'd be curious to see how enthusiastic you would be when it was your goods that were being undercut by an NPC.
#31 Mar 20 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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For all it's flaws, I still like the AH in FFXI. It's nice to have a centralized listing, of items up for sale.

I rarely bother with bazaars, because it's annoying having to check 100+ different people, having no idea what they are selling. Maybe they'll have that sushi you told your pt you were going to grab real quick, before heading to camp. Maybe they'll just have a rock salt for 99,999,999. It's just a horribly inefficient system.

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#32 Mar 20 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I rarely bother with bazaars, because it's annoying having to check 100+ different people, having no idea what they are selling.


I agree its a pain in the **** to have to search dozens of bazzars that are all randomly placed all over town. Half the time we miss peoples shops, half the time we check the same one twice. (really is it that hard to form a straight line to prevent this people?) :P

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 4:21pm by Mistre
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#33 Mar 20 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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The thing I loved most about the FFXI auction house was how you could see almost every non-rare/ex item in the game. I would use the auction house to gauge how good my weapons and armor were against what was available for my level.

Having the 'blind bidding' system was fun when you wanted to see how much of a deal you could get on an item, but there's been a few times when I just really needed an item right away, and the system made it a lot more frustrating than it needed to be.

I actually liked the player controlled economy. It made you have to come up with new, more creative ideas once prices of the item you were farming/crafting became ridiculous. Otherwise I totally would have been stuck in Sarutabaruta slapping Crawlers for most of my farming life.
#34 Mar 20 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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You say that from a buyer's perspective. I'd be curious to see how enthusiastic you would be when it was your goods that were being undercut by an NPC.


No I'm saying that from a player point of view, not buyer, not seller.

Having a good equation that can change the prices of goods from NPCS, based on the current prices of those goods, will create competition.

Give NPCs a limited number of supplies, make them restock and update prices once every 30 minutes to 1 hour (randomly within that period). Since the prices would only be ball parked and not exact, each NPC even though selling the same goods would have different prices. Make NPCs in each City/town/state only affected by their respective City/town/state.

And just because the players push the prices high, doesn't mean that the NPCs won't.
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#35 Mar 20 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
You say that from a buyer's perspective. I'd be curious to see how enthusiastic you would be when it was your goods that were being undercut by an NPC.


No I'm saying that from a player point of view, not buyer, not seller.

Having a good equation that can change the prices of goods from NPCS, based on the current prices of those goods, will create competition.


As if thousands of players on the same server don't already create competition.

Quote:
Give NPCs a limited number of supplies, make them restock and update prices once every 30 minutes to 1 hour (randomly within that period). Since the prices would only be ball parked and not exact, each NPC even though selling the same goods would have different prices. Make NPCs in each City/town/state only affected by their respective City/town/state.


Right, because what players really want is a bloated economic system. Simple is good. You don't need a developer wasting time coming up with lame gimmicks to control the economy on farmable/craftable goods. What's the point of the game if going out and fighting things for drops is replaced by canvasing the globe for the best price from an NPC? What's the point of farming/crafting anything to sell if the game itself is going to undercut you from a vendor? Vendors ideally exist to normalize the prices on essentials; repairs, extremely basic consumables, etc. There's no harm in having nifty bits on vendors here and there, but to involve NPC vendors on the scale you're talking about is ludicrous.
#36 Mar 20 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Right, because what players really want is a bloated economic system. Simple is good. You don't need a developer wasting time coming up with lame gimmicks to control the economy on farmable/craftable goods. What's the point of the game if going out and fighting things for drops is replaced by canvasing the globe for the best price from an NPC? What's the point of farming/crafting anything to sell if the game itself is going to undercut you from a vendor? Vendors ideally exist to normalize the prices on essentials; repairs, extremely basic consumables, etc. There's no harm in having nifty bits on vendors here and there, but to involve NPC vendors on the scale you're talking about is ludicrous.


Oh yeah, you mean just like in FFXI, when everything was stable and there was no one whatsoever, not a soul, not even one person ever throwing the system out of whack.

And you COMPLETELY right, why should developers ever try to improve their games over the last. They should just re-release FFXI with a new paint job. Or better yet, FF2 with a new skin, people will be happy with it. /end sarcasm
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#37 Mar 20 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
Right, because what players really want is a bloated economic system. Simple is good. You don't need a developer wasting time coming up with lame gimmicks to control the economy on farmable/craftable goods. What's the point of the game if going out and fighting things for drops is replaced by canvasing the globe for the best price from an NPC? What's the point of farming/crafting anything to sell if the game itself is going to undercut you from a vendor? Vendors ideally exist to normalize the prices on essentials; repairs, extremely basic consumables, etc. There's no harm in having nifty bits on vendors here and there, but to involve NPC vendors on the scale you're talking about is ludicrous.


Oh yeah, you mean just like in FFXI, when everything was stable and there was no one whatsoever, not a soul, not even one person ever throwing the system out of whack.

And you COMPLETELY right, why should developers ever try to improve their games over the last. They should just re-release FFXI with a new paint job. Or better yet, FF2 with a new skin, people will be happy with it. /end sarcasm


You know that there are MMOs other than FFXI, yes? And the issues you're complaining about are largely non-existent in those MMOs outside of RMT influence, yes? So maybe instead of coming up with hair-brained schemes that can only promote a broken economy you'd pause and ask yourself what is happening in those other games compared to FFXI and why, oh why, they have reasonably healthy, stable economies without the "illusion" of a player driven market bolstered by putting anything/everything worth buying or selling into the hands of an NPC to regulate the prices.

Less defensiveness, more thought.
#38 Mar 20 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Default
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You know that there are MMOs other than FFXI, yes? And the issues you're complaining about are largely non-existent in those MMOs outside of RMT influence, yes? So maybe instead of coming up with hair-brained schemes that can only promote a broken economy you'd pause and ask yourself what is happening in those other games compared to FFXI and why, oh why, they have reasonably healthy, stable economies without the "illusion" of a player driven market bolstered by putting anything/everything worth buying or selling into the hands of an NPC to regulate the prices.

Less defensiveness, more thought.


Yeah and most of those games have an extremely basic, uninteresting economy. And not everything would be able to be bought from NPCs. Hopefully more stuff than in FFXI, but not everything.

Why is it every time someone tries to add to a discussion, you come in and immediately tear it down with all negativity? As if you know best, HA! If you have nothing constructive to say about SPECULATION and discussion of ideas, SHUT THE F*** UP!
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#39 Mar 20 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
You know that there are MMOs other than FFXI, yes? And the issues you're complaining about are largely non-existent in those MMOs outside of RMT influence, yes? So maybe instead of coming up with hair-brained schemes that can only promote a broken economy you'd pause and ask yourself what is happening in those other games compared to FFXI and why, oh why, they have reasonably healthy, stable economies without the "illusion" of a player driven market bolstered by putting anything/everything worth buying or selling into the hands of an NPC to regulate the prices.

Less defensiveness, more thought.


Yeah and most of those games have an extremely basic, uninteresting economy. And not everything would be able to be bought from NPCs. Hopefully more stuff than in FFXI, but not everything.

Why is it every time someone tries to add to a discussion, you come in and immediately tear it down with all negativity? As if you know best, HA! If you have nothing constructive to say about SPECULATION and discussion of ideas, SHUT THE F*** UP!


There's actually a lot of speculation on these boards I don't comment on. Every once in a while, however, I come across an idea that is so fundamentally flawed that I throw my two cents. This is a discussion forum after all, not a place to spew our ideas and sit back basking in our own creativity without input from other people. If you want to prattle on about this or that without people commenting on your ideas, start a blog and lock it.

The economies that you're labeling as "extremely basic" are identical in function to those in FFXI. You kill things and take what they drop or you gather things. You either use the things you take, convert them to something else via a crafting profession, you sell them to another player or an NPC, you give them away, turn them in for a quest, or you drop them. Sometimes you use the things you make with your professions, sometimes you give them away, sometimes you sell them. These are all pretty much standard concepts in virtually any MMO. I'm not sure where you get the (flawed) idea that FFXI's basic economic functionality is/was any more complex than any other game. It's subject to the same laws of supply and demand as any other player driven economy in any other MMO. It's subject to unreasonable fluctuations due to RMT activity like any in any other MMO. And, had SE done a better job of tuning the drop rates and accessibility of things like crafting materials in addition to addressing RMT in a timely and effective fashion, the botched economy of FFXI would never have gotten so out of hand.

You don't fix problems by complicating them and adding new things that won't work. You fix them by figuring out what isn't working and address it. The issue wasn't that largely player driven economies don't work...the issue was that it's a game and when you force people to treat it like a job they tend to do stupid things to try and recover some semblance of entertainment value. If the supply is too low and the demand is non-negotiable, guess what? IT'S BROKEN. If the community "expects" you to take time out every ten levels to spend a month farming for the next "must have" piece of gear because the itemization is **** and people are so sick of the grind that only top xp/hour will do, guess what? IT'S BROKEN These aspects can be solved by better regulating the supply and mitigating the demand.
#40 Mar 20 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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There's actually a lot of speculation on these boards I don't comment on. Every once in a while, however, I come across an idea that is so fundamentally flawed that I throw my two cents. This is a discussion forum after all, not a place to spew our ideas and sit back basking in our own creativity without input from other people. If you want to prattle on about this or that without people commenting on your ideas, start a blog and lock it.


All ideas are fundamentally flawed when the mechanics around them are unknown. You might have the best idea in the world, but it might not work if there's an idea implemented that's in direct contrast.

Speculation, Ideas, these two words are important. Just because you can't see them being good, doesn't mean they're not! You in particular, do this all the time. Someone else just recently accused you of the same thing.

It's not so much about not wanting people to comment, it's that so far, roughly 90% of the time you disagree and your reasons are all based on other games with different systems while being completely ignorant to the system it's suggested for, just like everyone else.

My idea posted here might be the greatest in the world, it might also be the fall of all known civilization. You don't know, so STOP giving reasons as if you do.

You have no clue whether it would be BROKEN or not. Your in the same boat as the rest of us, so stop pretending to be an all knowing, all seeing God's gift to the green earth.
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#41 Mar 20 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
There's actually a lot of speculation on these boards I don't comment on. Every once in a while, however, I come across an idea that is so fundamentally flawed that I throw my two cents. This is a discussion forum after all, not a place to spew our ideas and sit back basking in our own creativity without input from other people. If you want to prattle on about this or that without people commenting on your ideas, start a blog and lock it.


All ideas are fundamentally flawed when the mechanics around them are unknown. You might have the best idea in the world, but it might not work if there's an idea implemented that's in direct contrast.


That seems to be the last line of defense for bad ideas these days..."Well...well...that game isn't out yet so we don't know for sure!!!!"

Quote:
Speculation, Ideas, these two words are important. Just because you can't see them being good, doesn't mean they're not! You in particular, do this all the time. Someone else just recently accused you of the same thing.


At least a century worth of recent human history supports my claim that your idea is a bad one. What you're touting as such a good idea is pretty **** close to this economic model we call "communism". You're suggesting SE step in and regulate the cost of goods based on NPC prices. Dumb idea.

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My idea posted here might be the greatest in the world, it might also be the fall of all known civilization. You don't know, so STOP giving reasons as if you do.


Whatever you say, Gorbachev.
#42 Mar 20 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually it wouldn't be price fixing Mr. Limbaugh, the NPCs would compete with the players.

And since your Mr. Know it all and you know every specific and result of every idea to have existed and every idea that will ever exist there's no point in arguing since you don't like the idea, it MUST be wrong.

oh and btw, this argument

Quote:

That seems to be the last line of defense for bad ideas these days..."Well...well...that game isn't out yet so we don't know for sure!!!!"


Hasn't worked since kids thought that it was clever in kindergarten and is heavily reminiscent of Pee Wee Herman.
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#43 Mar 20 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Actually it wouldn't be price fixing Mr. Limbaugh, the NPCs would compete with the players.


The only way for an NPC to "compete" with a player is to undercut them, which is, in essence, regulating the economy through prices defined by the "governing authority" (ie. SE) whether it's on a moving scale or not.
#44 Mar 20 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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So agree with you Aurelius. The droprates in FFXI were so broken. Many turn to gil buying because making money took unreasonable amounts of time, turning it into a second job rather than fun.
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#45 Mar 20 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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The only way for an NPC to "compete" with a player is to undercut them, which is, in essence, regulating the economy through prices defined by the "governing authority" (ie. SE) whether it's on a moving scale or not.


And? Nothings wrong with that. The NPC prices would vary based on what the players have been selling them, some days (in game days, if they bring that back) they'll be higher, and other days they'll be lower, their supply will also be limited. They'll be just like players other than they don't have to farm the items, and their sale prices will be randomly generated, within a rang(15% maybe) based on player prices for the previous day.

This will enforce competition(we call that capitalism, not communism), and even if some players get together and monopolize an item, they'll have competition regardless.

Rare items would be just that, rare, with a low chance of certain ones of them ending up at respective NPCs(Leaping boots at a tanner, armor at a blacksmith). Not all of them though, and maybe only 1 item a week would appear across the entire world.

Another thing is that players would have to actively check each NPC to see if they're undercutting anything on the AH(or whatever they use).

Something variable like this has NEVER been used. If FFXI had this, then Silk Thread prices wouldn't have dropped like like anvils once SE had NPCs start selling them (which totally sucked, they weren't worth farming afterward).

I can't believe I agree with you on something(the drop rates totally sucked, my buddy was 0/72 on leaping boots and 0/50 on the emperors hairpin).
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#46 Mar 20 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
The only way for an NPC to "compete" with a player is to undercut them, which is, in essence, regulating the economy through prices defined by the "governing authority" (ie. SE) whether it's on a moving scale or not.


And? Nothings wrong with that.


Pretty much everything, considering that if SE gets the basics right your idea would be useless. You're adding a needless complication under the auspices of controlling prices. Most people would agree that it's much better to have absolute freedom to charge what you want which, if you're smart, will reflect what the market can sustain at the time you try to sell. The FFXI sales history on items already served the purpose of your NPC without the hassle of having to make a side trip to talk to some guy and see what you should be selling your goods for.

It's just a bad idea. I'm not so sure why you're so rabid about defending it. Simple. Is. Good. Save the complexity and diversity for the combat system. I don't need the simple act of selling my goods to be turned into some drawn out side-quest checking NPC prices and comparing them to auction histories to get an idea of what I should be selling my stuff for. Not only will your idea, with "limited" quantities and sometimes there, sometimes not, sometimes over, sometimes under, be fundamentally USELESS, it would add the element of tedium that most people would be just as happy without. Complicate your own life as much as you think you need to. Don't expect people to agree with ideas that complicate theirs.
#47 Mar 20 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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So your under the assumption that SE is going to get it right, and that the economy has no issues.

Regulation are, usually, a good thing, they're there to keep everything from going completely out of whack.

Quote:
Most people would agree that it's much better to have absolute freedom to charge what you want which, if you're smart,


Yeah, because we all know that it really works for the U.S.. Every several years we have a terrible crash because people do practically whatever they want. It happened to FFXI too, plenty of people lost a lot of hard earned gil if they bought expensive items right before the prices dropped. Not to mention, all the gil that was worked hard to get became worthless once everything got real expensive.

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Complicate your own life as much as you think you need to. Don't expect people to agree with ideas that complicate theirs.


Yeah I'd be pretty agitated if I tried to price gouge and it was mad significantly more difficult because the developers put something in place to keep things like that from happening.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 1:28am by VayMasters
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#48 Mar 20 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
VayMasters wrote:
So your under the assumption that SE is going to get it right, and that the economy has no issues.

Regulation are, usually, a good thing, they're there to keep everything from going completely out of whack.


Supply and demand are the built in regulators to a free market economy. You'll notice the caveat I gave earlier about necessities. It's no different from a real world model where governments of free market societies will occasionally step in to regulate energy costs. That doesn't mean they're going to start opening government grocery stores and general retail outlets to compete with existing business just to keep their prices in check.

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Most people would agree that it's much better to have absolute freedom to charge what you want which, if you're smart,


Yeah, because we all know that it really works for the U.S.. Every several years we have a terrible crash because people do practically whatever they want. It happened to FFXI too, plenty of people lost a lot of hard earned gil if they bought expensive items right before the prices dropped. Not to mention, all the gil that was worked hard to get became worthless once everything got real expensive.


Any idea what caused the hyper-inflation in FFXI? Any idea at all?

Quote:
Quote:
Complicate your own life as much as you think you need to. Don't expect people to agree with ideas that complicate theirs.


Yeah I'd be pretty agitated if I tried to price gouge and it was mad significantly more difficult because the developers put something in place to keep things like that from happening.


Don't cry about price gauging. Please. If you think the price is unreasonable, don't pay it. When you pay a price you feel is unreasonable, you're sending a message to the seller that only encourages their behavior. Buying and selling in an MMO, when properly tuned, represents a convenience. You can go do what you do that earns you an income and use that income to benefit from the efforts of people who do what they like to do to earn an income. If you don't want to pay what they're asking, you go do what they did to get the items and instead of paying your in-game currency for the goods, you pay with your time. Nobody owes you anything. Convenience always comes with a price...if you don't like it, get crackin' and look after yourself.
#49 Mar 21 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Supply and demand are the built in regulators to a free market economy. You'll notice the caveat I gave earlier about necessities.


And they don't work. That's why there are regulations, to protect people from themselves.

Quote:
Don't cry about price gauging. Please. If you think the price is unreasonable, don't pay it. When you pay a price you feel is unreasonable, you're sending a message to the seller that only encourages their behavior. Buying and selling in an MMO, when properly tuned, represents a convenience. You can go do what you do that earns you an income and use that income to benefit from the efforts of people who do what they like to do to earn an income. If you don't want to pay what they're asking, you go do what they did to get the items and instead of paying your in-game currency for the goods, you pay with your time. Nobody owes you anything. Convenience always comes with a price...if you don't like it, get crackin' and look after yourself.


Yeah that's all and good when talking about a PS3 or a tv, but when it's a necessity, that's another story. In game, there's a large tendency for an actual need to have top end gear, other wise no one will let you partake in events, or the content is balanced for those with the top end and you practically need top end or near top end to complete the task.

So what am I supposed to do? Buy gil? Stop playing? Or jsut not play the content that I should be allowed to play just like everyone else, only I can't because I can't afford anything in game.
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#50 Mar 21 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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/sigh,

Okay,I dont think posting my opinion is going to help change anything so I'm just going to say this fight should end. Both sides have an opinion and nothing is going to change it.

This is a excersice is futility.
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#51 Mar 21 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
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Supply and demand are the built in regulators to a free market economy. You'll notice the caveat I gave earlier about necessities.


And they don't work. That's why there are regulations, to protect people from themselves.


They absolutely do work. It's just an issue where people perceive things to be "needs" when they are actually "wants".

Quote:
Yeah that's all and good when talking about a PS3 or a tv, but when it's a necessity, that's another story. In game, there's a large tendency for an actual need to have top end gear, other wise no one will let you partake in events, or the content is balanced for those with the top end and you practically need top end or near top end to complete the task.

So what am I supposed to do? Buy gil? Stop playing? Or jsut not play the content that I should be allowed to play just like everyone else, only I can't because I can't afford anything in game.


Try not to get hung up on the FFXI model for gear and drops. SE has already indicated several ways in which things will be different in FFXIV with regards to the availability and handling of gear. Keep that in mind...this isn't about FFXI, it's about FFXIV.

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 11:54pm by AureliusSir
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