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FFXIV v. FFXI Economy Follow

#52 Mar 21 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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They absolutely do work. It's just an issue where people perceive things to be "needs" when they are actually "wants".


Exactly why they are needed, to protect people from themselves.
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#53 Mar 21 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
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They absolutely do work. It's just an issue where people perceive things to be "needs" when they are actually "wants".


Exactly why they are needed, to protect people from themselves.


Spoken like a true communist.
#54 Mar 21 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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With all due respect to you Aurelius: You just seem like the know it all end all and its usually inevitable getting a point across to you since you always seem to turn them down than reply with constructive feedback as to the why's and why not's. All you do is shoot down one idea after another and that's a little pathetic don't you think? especially considering you know just as little about the game as anyone else here unless you're secretly a SE rep. Anyway, have fun.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 5:33pm by SolidMack
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#55 Mar 21 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
With all due respect to you Aurelius: You just seem like the know it all end all and its usually inevitable getting a point across to you since you always seem to turn them down and reply with constructive feedback as to the why's and why not's. All you do is shoot down one idea after another and that's a little pathetic don't you think? especially considering you know just as little about the game as anyone else here unless you're secretly a SE rep. Anyway, have fun.


I don't need an intimate knowledge of FFXIV to tell you that communism is stupid. Economics are a function of the people who drive them and there are two categories of people: those who have ultimate control and those who have to work within the confines of those controls (excluding such things as black markets and unsanctioned transactions, of course).

Yes, it's a game and in games the real world model doesn't always apply. But when you're talking about something that transcends game mechanics, experience across a broad spectrum of scenarios holds more weight than hopeful hypotheticals and pie-in-the-sky daydreaming.
#56 Mar 21 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius is right everyone Nod smile, agree, if you don't he won't shut up....Ever....on any board....about anything. Just agree(then disregard), or take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
#57 Mar 21 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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I don't need an intimate knowledge of FFXIV to tell you that communism is stupid. Economics are a function of the people who drive them and there are two categories of people: those who have ultimate control and those who have to work within the confines of those controls (excluding such things as black markets and unsanctioned transactions, of course).


It's not communism though, it's enforcing competition, it's much closer to capitalism than anything.

Though the argument we're on now has been fought for at least 30 years in America, and no one is closer to agreeing now than when they started and I also don't plan on being 54 and arguing with you at the time.
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#58 Mar 21 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
I don't need an intimate knowledge of FFXIV to tell you that communism is stupid. Economics are a function of the people who drive them and there are two categories of people: those who have ultimate control and those who have to work within the confines of those controls (excluding such things as black markets and unsanctioned transactions, of course).


It's not communism though, it's enforcing competition, it's much closer to capitalism than anything.

Though the argument we're on now has been fought for at least 30 years in America, and no one is closer to agreeing now than when they started and I also don't plan on being 54 and arguing with you at the time.


You can't have it both ways. Either NPC vendors sell only a token amount of <whatever> for a price that roughly reflects the auction value, in which case the impact that it has on the economy will be insignificant, or the NPC vendors sell enough to shape the economy in which case SE will have installed economic controls. What you're still failing to acknowledge are those things that SE could just as easily (and more intelligently) do to dramatically reduce the likelihood of hyper inflation the likes of which was seen in FFXI. In the presence of a transparent solution that truly preserves the full extent of a viable player driven economy, complicating the whole thing with competitive NPCs becomes not only needless, but an added element of tedium. Most people would not be interested in feeling compelled to go visit a half dozen NPCs with a pen and paper handy to write down what they should be listing their goods for before they head to the auction (or FFXIV equivalent) to list them.

FFXI already had vendors that sold goods players wanted. Some of them were a ridiculously good deal (copper ore comes to mind). Others were ridiculous. I used to make heavy use of the level 1 crossbow bolts from the vendor in Bastok Mines because they were super cheap and perfectly adequate for farming lower level mobs. Those sorts of things don't hurt anyone and were a welcome relief...and they were never things available on such a scale of diversity and/or in such quantity that they could heavily influence the economy. You could take a 10 second run from the Bastok Markets auction window and find an NPC vendor that sold bronze/brass armor for a (nearly)) fixed price that was almost always cheaper than what you could find on auction, but that didn't stop people from listing their armor for 1k when the vendor sold it for < 200.

As soon as you start pushing quantity and/or diversity of goods to the extent that they can actually have any impact on the economy whatsoever, you're instituting controls. It's a bandaid fix to a problem that could just as easily be resolved by adjusting drop rates so that supply has an easier time meeting demand. In a game where gear has already been announced to be largely bind on pickup, that issue becomes less significant. All that remains for consideration are crafting components. Simple solution. No controls. Free market preserved. Win-win.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 8:42pm by AureliusSir
#59 Mar 21 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, Elmyrsun, your right. He thinks he knows all.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 12:47am by VayMasters
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#60 Mar 21 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Having a grasp of basic high school economics is such a rare commodity, apparently.
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#61 Mar 21 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
Wow, Elmyrsun, your right. He thinks he knows all.


So far in this thread about all you've done is post a hair-brained idea and then instead of supporting it with rational argument, you've simply complained about me being a meanie-head and repeated your hair-brained idea. Is this what these forums are going to be like when FFXIV goes live? Bunch of whiny monkeys puking out half-baked ideas and then crying when those ideas are challenged? I sure hope not...
#62 Mar 21 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Is this what these forums are going to be like when FFXIV goes live? Bunch of whiny monkeys puking out half-baked ideas and then crying when those ideas are challenged?
Its an eight year tradition.
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#63 Mar 21 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
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So far in this thread about all you've done is post a hair-brained idea and then instead of supporting it with rational argument, you've simply complained about me being a meanie-head and repeated your hair-brained idea. Is this what these forums are going to be like when FFXIV goes live? Bunch of whiny monkeys puking out half-baked ideas and then crying when those ideas are challenged? I sure hope not...


There's no way to post a rational argument, for two reasons, we don't know nearly enough about the game, and 2, like someone just said, you're taking an irrational oppositional stance and it's like an Atheist arguing with a theist, They're arguing with completely contradictory viewpoints of legitimacy.
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#64 Mar 21 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
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So far in this thread about all you've done is post a hair-brained idea and then instead of supporting it with rational argument, you've simply complained about me being a meanie-head and repeated your hair-brained idea. Is this what these forums are going to be like when FFXIV goes live? Bunch of whiny monkeys puking out half-baked ideas and then crying when those ideas are challenged? I sure hope not...


There's no way to post a rational argument, for two reasons, we don't know nearly enough about the game, and 2, like someone just said, you're taking an irrational oppositional stance and it's like an Atheist arguing with a theist, They're arguing with completely contradictory viewpoints of legitimacy.


Nice cop-out thar, sporty. Apparently you know enough about the game to rabidly defend the assertion that price controls would be an asset, but when confronted with Economics 101 you cry and moan. Enough already.
#65 Mar 21 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice cop-out thar, sporty. Apparently you know enough about the game to rabidly defend the assertion that price controls would be an asset, but when confronted with Economics 101 you cry and moan. Enough already.


Your arguing absoluteness, and I'm arguing possibility. It's a fictional world, the economics in a fictional world are not nearly as complex as the real world. Ironically Econ 101 is all about fiction since most of those people get out into the real world and realize that they don't know squat about economics and are forced to relearn.

My idea can work, it might work, and it might not. Good night Mr. Bush.
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#66 Mar 21 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
Nice cop-out thar, sporty. Apparently you know enough about the game to rabidly defend the assertion that price controls would be an asset, but when confronted with Economics 101 you cry and moan. Enough already.


Your arguing absoluteness, and I'm arguing possibility. It's a fictional world, the economics in a fictional world are not nearly as complex as the real world. Ironically Econ 101 is all about fiction since most of those people get out into the real world and realize that they don't know squat about economics and are forced to relearn.

My idea can work, it might work, and it might not. Good night Mr. Bush.


And in light of proven solutions that we've already seen work in other games, your willingness to propose experimentation on an entire community because it "might" work is bordering on supreme arrogance. Is your last name Marx, by any chance?
#67 Mar 21 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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And in light of proven solutions that we've already seen work in other games, your willingness to propose experimentation on an entire community because it "might" work is bordering on supreme arrogance. Is your last name Marx, by any chance?


Wow, you call me arrogant? Your the one who "Knows" the outcome of everything as if you can see the future. I've stated many time that it could, NOT will work, and that it might or might not. That's not arrogance, that willingness. Willingness to try something new is how things are created and born, just like the computer your using, the MMO's genre, and your crystal ball.

The game is close to, if not yet in alpha, now would be the time to experiment, unless you'd rather just have the same old same old with the same old same old problems.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 1:39am by VayMasters
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#68 Mar 21 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
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And in light of proven solutions that we've already seen work in other games, your willingness to propose experimentation on an entire community because it "might" work is bordering on supreme arrogance. Is your last name Marx, by any chance?


Wow, you call me arrogant? Your the one who "Knows" the outcome of everything as if you can see the future. I've stated many time that it could, NOT will work, and that it might or might not. That's not arrogance, that willingness. Willingness to try something new is how things are created and born, just like the computer your using, the MMO's genre, and your crystal ball.

The game is close to, if not yet in alpha, now would be the time to experiment, unless you'd rather just have the same old same old with the same old same old problems.


And my question to you, stated very plainly and succinctly since you still refuse to address it, is why add a boneheaded control to a game when there are already proven methods to address those things you're so uptight over?
#69 Mar 22 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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They absolutely do work. It's just an issue where people perceive things to be "needs" when they are actually "wants".


But in many cases they don't. Look at health insurance, it's going to bankrupt the US economy if it continues the way it is. The insurance companies have consistently lowered it's worth and raised the cost because they have no competition in the free market.

If the free market really works, then why are there people who are good hard workers, who can't find jobs? People lose everything in a free market due to uncontrollable events such as getting cancer.

The free market is not a perfect system, no system is perfect, that's why methods, new and old, have to be tried out to better it, even things that sound crazy on paper may have fantastic results.

And wants and needs in many cases are perspective. I need a computer to be able to do research for my work. My imagination doesn't just click on and off with a 9 to 5 schedule, so I can't just go to the library, though to other people, a computer is a luxury.
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#70 Mar 22 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius: with all due respect...10 hours later and you're still pathetic...loosen up a bit will you, maybe you shouldn't take everything so seriously and just relax man -- i mean people are throwing around ideas for the sake of throwing them around, i'm sure not your idea nor the next guys' will be implemented in the game. Jesus man, i'm willing to bet you're the quite type in real life, sort of the social outcast, aren't you? simply because I just don't see anyone putting up with you.
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#71 Mar 22 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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why add a boneheaded control to a game when there are already proven methods to address those things you're so uptight over?


I don't know what boneheaded control scheme your talking about.

And 100% of those proven methods might not work in different economy. That question get into opinion over those methods. You might think they work perfectly in their respective economies,while others might think they suck.
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#72 Mar 22 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Default
SolidMack wrote:
Aurelius: with all due respect...10 hours later and you're still pathetic...loosen up a bit will you, maybe you shouldn't take everything so seriously and just relax man -- i mean people are throwing around ideas for the sake of throwing them around, i'm sure not your idea nor the next guys' will be implemented in the game. Jesus man, i'm willing to bet you're the quite type in real life, sort of the social outcast, aren't you? simply because I just don't see anyone putting up with you.


I have an idea...contribute to the discussion or shut up. How's that? Don't worry about what I'm doing or not doing. I'm not here for your approval. If people don't want to have their ideas challenged in a discussion forum, they can post a blog.
#73 Mar 22 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
They absolutely do work. It's just an issue where people perceive things to be "needs" when they are actually "wants".


But in many cases they don't. Look at health insurance, it's going to bankrupt the US economy if it continues the way it is. The insurance companies have consistently lowered it's worth and raised the cost because they have no competition in the free market.


And health insurance is considered by most first world countries other than the US as a....necessity. That's right. Bad comparison. For a country as wealthy as the United States, the fact that they've gone this long without providing basic healthcare services at no cost to its citizens is downright shameful.

Quote:
If the free market really works, then why are there people who are good hard workers, who can't find jobs? People lose everything in a free market due to uncontrollable events such as getting cancer.


Free market economies are about the freedom to innovate and do what you need to do in order to provide for yourself and your families without having to worry about Big Brother arbitrarily stepping in and saying, "No." It's about extending Bob and Mary the freedom to get together and decide between themselves...as free people...whether or not they can accommodate an exchange of some sort, be it a barter or a currency transaction. But as soon as Big Brother steps in to compete with Bob and/or Mary, Bob and/or Mary are forced to adjust their prices in line with what Big Brother is charging or no savvy consumer is going to buy from them.

Quote:
The free market is not a perfect system, no system is perfect, that's why methods, new and old, have to be tried out to better it, even things that sound crazy on paper may have fantastic results.


Except that when there exists a fully workable solution to a problem, stepping in to control instead of preserving freedom by implementing the workable solution is weak. It's narrow minded, arrogant, insecure, and ignorant. The desire to control stems from fear. What is it that you're afraid of? That SE is going to bungle the economy in FFXIV like they did with FFXI? That their talk about addressing RMT from the ground up this time around is just lip service?

Quote:
And wants and needs in many cases are perspective. I need a computer to be able to do research for my work. My imagination doesn't just click on and off with a 9 to 5 schedule, so I can't just go to the library, though to other people, a computer is a luxury.


I need tools to do my job. Do you think the government is going to step in and cut me a break on a new router because I perceive it as a necessity? You know why things like energy are deemed genuine necessities? Because we've become reliant on transported food to keep ourselves alive. We've become reliant on refrigeration to prevent that food from spoiling. We've become reliant on modern appliances (electricity/gas) too cook that much of that food so that it's safe to eat. And in the absence of the energy necessary to meet these needs and keep food arriving in our cities and preserved from spoilage, people will starve. Regulating energy costs represents a need. A wealthy nation providing healthcare for its citizens so that they can receive the care they need without going bankrupt is a need. Controlling the price on everything/anything because you're afraid of what will happen in the absence of those controls is a want.
#74 Mar 22 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Controlling the price on everything/anything because you're afraid of what will happen in the absence of those controls is a want.


I've told you, time and time again, it's not controlling the prices, it's a preventative from keeping people from using unfair practices, like monopolization and such.

Think of it was a regulation implemented using npcs. And no, regulations are not bad, if it wasn't for regulations China wouldn't be the only place that puts lead in toys, there wouldn't be a minimum wage, and the wealthy would be the only ones able to afford any health care whatsoever.

Quote:
I need tools to do my job. Do you think the government is going to step in and cut me a break on a new router because I perceive it as a necessity


And yes they do cut you a break, you can write it off on your taxes if you can prove it's for business purposes.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 3:44am by VayMasters
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#75 Mar 22 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Default
VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
Controlling the price on everything/anything because you're afraid of what will happen in the absence of those controls is a want.


I've told you, time and time again, it's not controlling the prices, it's a preventative from keeping people from using unfair practices, like monopolization and such.

Think of it was a regulation implemented using npcs. And no, regulations are not bad, if it wasn't for regulations China wouldn't be the only place that puts lead in toys, there wouldn't be a minimum wage, and the wealthy would be the only ones able to afford any health care whatsoever.

Quote:
I need tools to do my job. Do you think the government is going to step in and cut me a break on a new router because I perceive it as a necessity


And yes they do cut you a break, you can write it off on your taxes if you can prove it's for business purposes.


After a point, it becomes painfully apparent when someone is out of their league, which you clearly are. I leave you to your delusions.
#76 Mar 22 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Default
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Yeah sure, whatever you say, take the stick out of your rear. Cya

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 3:57am by VayMasters
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#77 Mar 22 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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If people don't want to have their ideas challenged in a discussion forum, they can post a blog.


Ya know, I might take you more seriously if every single post I've ever seen you make weren't a vitriolic dismantling of whatever the OP said. Seriously every reply I've ever seen from you boils down to "The OP is wrong and Dumb".

Oh except for those posts about tech specs, you aren't to rude when telling people which video card is better than another, I'll give ya that.
#78 Mar 22 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I have an idea...contribute to the discussion or shut up. How's that? Don't worry about what I'm doing or not doing. I'm not here for your approval. If people don't want to have their ideas challenged in a discussion forum, they can post a blog.


I already contributed my part when it was actually decent being part of this conversation, then you kind of dragged it downhill. I have a better idea, how about you just shut up, how about that? like I said you don't seem the type to get much attention in the real world so you do it on forums by acting all big and smart, hope you're at least humoring yourself cuz you're not fooling anyone here by using some big words you've probably just pulled out of the thesaurus and some economics 101 you Wikipedia'd...again you need to loosen up a bit and let the conversation flow instead of countering every **** thing anyone says, at this point i can see someone agreeing with you and you turning around and countering them.
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#79 Mar 22 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
Quote:

I have an idea...contribute to the discussion or shut up. How's that? Don't worry about what I'm doing or not doing. I'm not here for your approval. If people don't want to have their ideas challenged in a discussion forum, they can post a blog.


I already contributed my part when it was actually decent being part of this conversation, then you kind of dragged it downhill. I have a better idea, how about you just shut up, how about that? like I said you don't seem the type to get much attention in the real world so you do it on forums by acting all big and smart, hope you're at least humoring yourself cuz you're not fooling anyone here by using some big words you've probably just pulled out of the thesaurus and some economics 101 you Wikipedia'd...again you need to loosen up a bit and let the conversation flow instead of countering every **** thing anyone says, at this point i can see someone agreeing with you and you turning around and countering them.


Maybe you want to re-read the thread instead of being the would-be noble hero defending the oppressed ignorant masses. Particularly the point where I challenged Vaymasters' idea in a fairly neutral way, responded to his subsequent sarcasm with sarcasm, and was treated to a delicious little emoplosion. You want to vilify me? Get your facts straight first. Thanks.
#80 Apr 03 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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All right, children settle down and let me play devil's advocate here a bit.

Both of you are being a little to **** about all of this.

VayMasters-- I'm sorry but regulation IS controlling. Regulation means someone in an authoritative position makes a law that dictates how someone is to behave, or in this case, sell something for. Even if I WANTED that to happen, do I really want that to be on a merchant NPC? Think about it. Currency has a couple ways of entering the economy, let's look at some examples:

New players start with 100gil. 10 new players enter the world. 1000 new gils are added to the economy.
Mob drops 15 gil. 15 new gil are added to the economy for every mob killed.
PC sells item for 100 gil to NPC merchant. 100 gil is added to the economy.
(I'm sure there are more, but I think that is enough to illustrate)

Now, how does money leave the economy?
1) Player with 10,000 gil leaves the game/deletes char/etc. 10,000 gil leaves the economy (perhaps temporarily for the leaves game scenario)
2) Player gives 1,000 gil to NPC to buy widget. 1,000 gil leaves economy, 1 new widget enters.
3) Player pays some sort of service fee (not any different from number 1, really, but no items actually enter the economy as a result). EX: player pays 500 for mog house update. 500 gil leaves economy. Pay 500 gil to auction something, 500 gil leaves, etc.

Now, in a healthy economy money should exchange hands freely without being created or destroyed. And, if everything is perfect, gil should be entering the economy as quickly as it is leaving it. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect, but having more opportunities (or, in this case, more incentive) to buy and sell from NPCs would make more opportunities for money to leave the economy than it does for it to come in or simply exchange hands. When gil leaves the economy too quickly, sales drop (people can't afford it), thus prices drop (to sell surplus), thus trade is discouraged. On the other hand if money enters too quickly, prices inflate to the point where those who don't trade or farm for items to sell have a problem buying the things they need/want. Gilsellers create a problem for this because they are, essentially acting as a money sink by hoarding the gil they make and starving the economy then reintroducing it for a price on a second, outside economy (RL $$$).

It may suck, but we as players will have to combat the monopolizing people ourselves. If someone is farming beehive chips and selling them for 20,000 gil a stack and you think that's outrageous... don't pay it. Farm your own. That is how competition starts. Someone doesn't want to pay that price and thinks they can make money by selling it cheaper, so they do it.

Sure, it would be nice if there was a way to stop XxBeeHiveD00dxX and his 500 mules from buying all competing beehive chips, and selling 1000 stacks a day at outrageous prices, but if that's how he wants to play the game who's to say he shouldn't? He just got to the cheaper chips before you did. Maybe next time you're out and you see PoorLilNoob killing bee after bee, you should offer to buy his chips? This way you make friends with people who like to do that sort of thing or have a need to for whatever reason. You can form networks, get things cheap and they can get things they want or need from you for gil or other goods/services. That's what an economy is all about, not just saying, "Mr. Obama please create a law that punishes XxBeeHiveD00dxX for me, k thx."
#81 Apr 03 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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Im pretty sure I read that Guildleves will be available for DoH and DoL of a Crafting/Gathering type nature, which may ease the farming process and in turn help drop item cost.

Of course, I could be wrong, so don't flame if I am. Im sure I read it somewhere, just can't seem to find it at this time.....
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#82 Apr 03 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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And health insurance is considered by most first world countries other than the US as a....necessity. That's right. Bad comparison. For a country as wealthy as the United States, the fact that they've gone this long without providing basic healthcare services at no cost to its citizens is downright shameful.

Quote:
If the free market really works, then why are there people who are good hard workers, who can't find jobs? People lose everything in a free market due to uncontrollable events such as getting cancer.


Free market economies are about the freedom to innovate and do what you need to do in order to provide for yourself and your families without having to worry about Big Brother arbitrarily stepping in and saying, "No." It's about extending Bob and Mary the freedom to get together and decide between themselves...as free people...whether or not they can accommodate an exchange of some sort, be it a barter or a currency transaction. But as soon as Big Brother steps in to compete with Bob and/or Mary, Bob and/or Mary are forced to adjust their prices in line with what Big Brother is charging or no savvy consumer is going to buy from them.


I think I saw an eagle cry. So beautiful.
#83 Apr 04 2010 at 6:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Well i for one think the FFXIV economy should not be control by the players, and should be moderate threw SE them selves to sustain a better economy in the game, leaving the choice of the price to players, was what devastated the FFxi economy in the first place.

leaving players to choose what the price was like telling a baby that he can sell his dollar lolly pop for 50k. the fluctuation of outrageous prices that end up with decade during the yrs is an example how people giving too much power over certain things can devastate an economy even in a game.
#84 Apr 04 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Shadowhero wrote:
I'm really hoping in FFXIV that gil isn't nearly as important as in FFXI. It seems to be different, but so far.. I have no idea.

In FFXI, to level a job, you had to spend tons and tons of money... Just to be effective against a mob. I'm really hoping in FFXIV, you work to get your stuff. Not buy everything. It actually kind of made it stressful to play FFXI when you didn't have a way to make money. It really did affect the casual player. I do understand the importance of money in a PVE mmo, however, the auction house shouldn't be a main source of getting items as it was in FFXI.



Judging by the skill based system that this game is going for the economy will be apples to oranges compared to FFXI or even WoW. If professions are treated with the same attention as combat classes then we are looking at an economy with the depth of say something like eve online. Buying selling and trading in this game could possible reach "educational" levels to say the least.

expect a completely new experience in this regard. I have a gutt feeling on this one. If it took me 2 months of questing to be able to finally make a special type of armor that will effect things greatly..

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 2:17pm by thorazinekizzez
#85 Apr 05 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Well i for one think the FFXIV economy should not be control by the players, and should be moderate threw SE them selves to sustain a better economy in the game, leaving the choice of the price to players, was what devastated the FFxi economy in the first place.

leaving players to choose what the price was like telling a baby that he can sell his dollar lolly pop for 50k. the fluctuation of outrageous prices that end up with decade during the yrs is an example how people giving too much power over certain things can devastate an economy even in a game.


Actually, I think the things that hurt the FFXI economy were:

1) The auction house was the only easy place to actually buy and sell items. /bazaar was good for some things, but the AH made things easily available across zones and it was searchable.

2) Rather than show WHO is selling the item and how much they are asking for it (IE most other MMOs using the AH method), FFXI made you guess at the price and gave you the lowest priced instance of that item currently on the AH. Had they done it the other way around like the other MMOs, people could at least take a look and see that XxBEECHIPD00DxX is monopolizing beehive chips, beeswax,etc and perhaps he's also a gilseller and could not buy from him or any of his known mules. Not easy for everyone to know, sure, but it is more possible than with the FFXI AH method.

3) Things were either reasonably priced for the things players bought from NPCs/etc. Or they cost WAY TOO MUCH (Dynamis, etc.) which made no mid-ranged gil sinks to moderate the inflation a bit.

4) Hate to say it, but items didn't decay. Thus the market flooded. Desynthesis wasn't really worth it most of the time unless you were a goldsmith. If money changes hands more and goods actually LEAVE the game, then it's a lot better for the economy in general as the crafters can make more items and still sell them instead of just having this useless pile of stuff that's not selling because everyone that wants one already has one.

5) Gilsellers. Yeah, they really hurt the economy. You see, nothing in the game is WORTH any more as someone will actually pay for it. So if people are paying 50k for that 1gil lolipop, then they deserve to be scammed and that lolipop is now worth 50k to someone. If it's not worth that much to you, then don't buy it. It's not like someone is forcing you at gunpoint to buy it. With gilsellers, people just buy the gil, and they can now pay the 50k for the little trinket they want.

Hopefully SE will make things a little easier to get this time around. No more trying to kill 50 sheep for 1 piece of wool, 10 rabbits for 1 piece of rabbit meat, etc. Hopefully the NPC merchants will also keep items they have been sold and resell them until they run out so people can try to shop the NPCs for some bargains if they want. I remember doing that in Everquest constantly lol. For some reason I can't remember if FFXI merchants did that or not...

But to make everything in the game available on the merchant and price regulate would just run the whole point of player to player trade. That would make for a rather dull game especially if you like crafting.

Edit: I just wanted to add one more thing:

The other problem with FFXI's AH system was that when someone DID buy that lolipop for 50k gil, everyone else thought, "HEY! I can sell this for 50k gil too!" and thus the price stuck. Maybe in FFXIV they can give like an average price over say... a month or so so people can judge how much something has gone for? Perhaps if they were really ambitious it could even throw out any outliers (extremely high or low values)

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 5:45am by shinichoco
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#86 Apr 06 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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441 posts
Quote:

The other problem with FFXI's AH system was that when someone DID buy that lolipop for 50k gil, everyone else thought, "HEY! I can sell this for 50k gil too!" and thus the price stuck. Maybe in FFXIV they can give like an average price over say... a month or so so people can judge how much something has gone for? Perhaps if they were really ambitious it could even throw out any outliers (extremely high or low values)


That is one of the biggest problem in this game, ppl would mass manipulate items prices to have a fix rate either high or low, this is one of the issues why se should make set prices on all, items, to prevent the manipulation of the final fantasy economy.
#87 Apr 06 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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163 posts
Prices are controlled in any new game just by the fact that we only have the npc merchants buying and selling prices to go on. Players are supposed to determine the prices in an MMO but that npc regulation is always there as long as there are npc merchants, the thing is in ffxi the NPC merchants were never really used by SE to push the economy in any direction, they were simply there.
Only the JP players know what the economy of ffxi was really like in the first 11(?)months of the new game.
Things we do know, ffxiv has npc merchants, the ah system is different somehow, there is trading between characters, crafting/gathering will play a significant part of the game and people are still greedy, the economy will likely be quite similar to that of ffxi from that limited info, possibly minus the mega-inflation RMT caused.
#88 Apr 06 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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437 posts
Quote:
That is one of the biggest problem in this game, ppl would mass manipulate items prices to have a fix rate either high or low, this is one of the issues why se should make set prices on all, items, to prevent the manipulation of the final fantasy economy.


Controlled pricing will never happen in an MMO. Sure, there will be jerks out there who sell things at overly inflated prices, but you can't take away the freedom of trade from EVERYONE just to punish those jerks. Why are you so afraid of competing with them? If SE just makes the drop rates on most craft ingredients not nearly as painful as they were in FFXI (silk thread? Cockatrice meat? Raptor Hides? Yeah, looking at YOU GUYS) and the places to get ore for mining are abundant and you don't randomly break your pickaxe every swing, I think the FFXIV trade economy will fare much better and be easier to compete in for everyone. Don't like to craft? Make friends. Give some of your Goat meat to your friend cook, sell the rest and just maybe your cook friend will give you some free food in return. Don't be afraid to interact with people in a MMO, goodness that's one of the main perks of playing one!

Edit: Perhaps SE even has a different method other than the AH to sell stuff as well. They did mention they were going to try something different, didn't they? Perhaps they have an interesting solution that will appease everyone in some fashion.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 12:45am by shinichoco
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#89kissmyguncel, Posted: May 19 2010 at 11:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i never had the need for gil playing ffxi i evan lvled corsair and was cheep to what people said you just never played the game right 203mill and a 2 man link shell your epicfail LOOK UP FFXI AH KISSMYARSE caitsith server
#90 May 20 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Default
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459 posts
VayMasters wrote:
That's why there are regulations, to protect people from themselves.


oh what a fool. what a ******* fool.

do me a favor. next time i'm trying to accomplish something in the way that i want to accomplish it, kill yourself. i don't want you to "protect me" from "myself", it's not your place to do so. i'm a free-willed person. how dare you? how dare you try to control my actions against my explicit desires?

i'll sell what i like for what i want, and if i don't do well, it's my responsibility and i bear the cost for it. i won't bear the cost of your business behavior just because you think you know better than me. swindler. thief.

son of a *****.
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