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Will XIV have the WoW factor?Follow

#1 Mar 18 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Had to use the play on words. Let me set the mood first...I played endgame FFXI with a passion 3x jobs to 75 took down all the nasties and what not, but I also played WoW to the endgame runs and took down most of the nasties without the same passion as FFXI. To quote the great Enigo Montoya, "Let me splain, no let me sum up..." WoW was/is too freaking easy which led to less of a movement to find the best players on the server that were required to hunt the nasties. FFXI was difficult to say the least. Money issues, countercamping NMs HNMs, god pop items, CoP missions, you name it...I loved it. I was known for being good at my job in the FFXI, known for having the best gear, our LS was contacted by other LSs to help with strategy on things. You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW. I never made the friends in WoW I made in FFXI and never was recognized for accomplishments in WoW. It felt good that people would ask me in FFXI seconds after I signed on to join their parties because I did a good job and was almost funny sometimes.

There is a point for discussion --- Will FFXIV have that easy "WoW factor" or still have an edge like FFXI that can make for real heroes and celebrities in game?

My desire is to keep it were only the most dedicated players will get the best stuff, but back off from the FFXI intensity just a little.
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#2 Mar 18 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Best stuff, sure, but not all of the stuff. Should be easier content as well. And way less of the artificial hardness that some of FFXI endgame had that was only hard because it required you to stay awake long enough to maybe make a claim on something.
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#3 Mar 18 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it needs to be compared to WoW, when you can compare it to the 12 other offline Final Fantasy titles out there.

Final Fantasy titles are pretty much the biggest RPG's out there, but aren't known for being ball bustingly hard or mega grindy.

Playing FFIV, climbing Mt. Ordeals, Cecil purifying his dark half and taking up the Paladin's sword, it was much 'easier' and took less time to do than getting a root, riding my chocobo to a cave (where I, training to be a valiant defender, was hiding from everything), and then sneaking through the shadows to infiltrate Shadow Moses.

I remember Mt. Ordeals in better detail, and also got a good sense of accomplishment from that less-difficult trial.
#4 Mar 18 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I liked WoW, played for a few years, but I became increasingly frustrated with the fisher-price simplicity and idiocy of 90% of the playerbase and quit.

Something as hardcore as XI with less required timesink for people who just don't have as much time anymore for 4 hour parties or staying up to 4AM for spawn windows would be fantastic, and I'm actually pretty confident that's the direction XIV is headed in.

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Edited, Mar 18th 2010 9:52pm by Kirbster
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#5 Mar 18 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Tone it down a bit from FFXI but not where near the level of WoW would please me most.

FFXI had a nice sense of accomplishment, I never felt that in WoW.
#6 Mar 18 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm positive it'll have the toughness that accompanied (and sometimes haunted) players in FFXI throughout their "career"...I think what FFXIV will do different is provide enough "casual" content to keep everyone happy because heck, even the hardcores love some chill time, and at the same time it'll provide the tough latter levels of the game that require strategy and group work and then of course end game. I pray to god this game doesn't turn out like WoW because I too played WoW for about 3 months before I reached max level -- a feat I never reached 'til year 2 in FFXI lol...and I loved it.
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#7 Mar 18 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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The difficulty and complexity of FFXI without having to farm gil like it's a part-time job would be nice.
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#8 Mar 19 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well I think the difference between the 2 games is too big to compare it to eachother.
Both games attract different players and wow is based on achievement and a lot of pvp nowaday while ff series never really got into the whole pvp part which i sometimes disliked.

I think if they do the right publicity it can become a very big game but that really depends on the pay options 2. If you want to draw a younger players to the game you can't simply say pay with creditcard and nothing else.

So that will be a big issue to get the younger players to this game.
#9 Mar 19 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I was known for being good at my job in the FFXI, known for having the best gear, our LS was contacted by other LSs to help with strategy on things. You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW. I never made the friends in WoW I made in FFXI and never was recognized for accomplishments in WoW


WoW is a 14yr old altaholics dream. A new toon leveled to 80 in under a month isn't around long enough for people to really get to know. I think the biggest reason for the solid friends and recognition we all got in 11 was the 1 character world. I played for 5 years, always the same character, so everyone I partied with recognized me for another party later. After partying with the same character a few times they are no longer random toons running wildly about.

I didn't play WoW for long, mostly because of the community. No one knew anyone and elitist douchebaggery was rampant because everyone who had been there more than a couple years had leveled 1 of everything to 80 and thought everyone else should be just as proficient right out of the box.

The bonds built in 11 were extremely strong because everyone recognized that same character you'd been playing with that same name for years. When I was playing at my Peak(daily 4hours+ for 2years) I had a roomy that was in LS with me, we lived in GA. One of our LS mates lived in Utah and was having some issues with it so we invited him to move to GA. He did, he lived with us for over a year before moving again. No other game I've played had anyone I knew long enough or well enough to invite into my home. 11 was a game with a magnificent community. There was no altaholic anonymity for someone to hide behind so if someone was a tool in a party they'd be recognized next time people were seeking and avoided. And if some one was "bad" at their job, no harm no foul, there are other jobs they can try.

the 1 Character world was I think my favorite aspect of the FF community.
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#10 Mar 19 2010 at 4:15 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah the 1 character is the best thing about ff series and i hope that they don't change it in the ffxiv to much.
#11 Mar 19 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raymund wrote:
Best stuff, sure, but not all of the stuff. Should be easier content as well. And way less of the artificial hardness that some of FFXI endgame had that was only hard because it required you to stay awake long enough to maybe make a claim on something.


I think this sums it up very well.
#12 Mar 19 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that SE learned their lesson with mobs that require waiting and think they will minimize it or let there be specific requirements that lowers the number of people who just claim it for currency.

Basicly all items that require a pop mob should be bop or rare ex. whatever SE calls it, also certain prequests helps to spread the timeframe for farming the certain mob.
#13 Mar 19 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
If Square-Enix wants FFXIV to be more successful then WoW they will have to appeal to the masses not only to the people who think they are hardcore gamers. I played FFXI for two years, however once I tried WoW trail for a week I decided to quit FFXI for good for a number of reasons. Most players play games to have fun others play to feel like they are special because they are better geared then the masses. I play for fun; however I have full ICC 25 gear, so I know what it feels like to have that power over the masses when I do a random dungeon and all other DPS in the party jealous of mine.

Reasons I quit FFXI:
- I played through most of the content.
- Deleveling when dieing too many times. This is a ridiculous harsh punishment because you have to spend time to get a party together and spend the whole day grinding exp. This is not my idea of having fun.
- If you only have a few hours to spare to play by the time you get a party and go grind exp you have to leave. Most people have lives in real life so they don’t have 4 solid hours available each day to accomplish something in FFXI.

Things I like in WoW:
- You can level your character solo, so basically if you don’t have a lot of time to spend in WoW you actually can get somewhere without someone waiting on you.
- I find the best thing in WoW was added recently, now you are able to queue for a dungeon. The game will fill in the rest of your party and you get teleported to the dungeon. This actually made old content useable again; I actually enjoy leveling an alt playing through the old dungeons. They still haven’t implemented this for raid content because of the difficulty, but this random party generator would have been great in FFXI when you want to get into a leveling party.

I will be quitting WoW when my guild stops doing ICC content. I have no intention of playing next expansion because all evidence I see it will have the same crappy graphics and just being more of the same. Like any game when I play it too long I get bored of it. I was hoping I would have quit WoW sooner, however Aion turned out to be a disaster. I have great hopes for FFXIV.


Edited, Mar 19th 2010 11:09am by Pseudopsia
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#14 Mar 19 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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Nice post Elmyrsun. My LS got together at bars sometimes and one of my ingame friends designed a website for me. When the game is hard and you depend on others to help you succeed it creates strong bonds. We would lend gear, money, whatever to each other. What I am hoping for is that XIV will require us to make these same friendships.
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#15 Mar 19 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Cheesdog wrote:
You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW. I never made the friends in WoW I made in FFXI and never was recognized for accomplishments in WoW. It felt good that people would ask me in FFXI seconds after I signed on to join their parties because I did a good job and was almost funny sometimes.


Maybe you just weren't very good at WoW. The amount of networking between top guilds to exchange strategies is pretty substantial. I made lots of great friends in WoW that were friends for several years. Unfortunately, they were the unique snowflake mindset and not very skilled at the game (nicest people you'll ever meet, however) and they resented my choice to move on to guilds that were progressing at a level closer to what I was looking for. (As an example, not to trash them but to clarify my point, I was in vent with them the day they decided to do an all guild Karazhan run (entry level raid from the last expansion). What was normally a 2 hour adventure from first pull -> last boss dead took them 8 hours and they still didn't finish.) I would also get repeat invites for dungeons and even raids when I'd PUG them on alts.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I always wonder about people who make these claims. Maybe you could set my mind at ease and mention a couple of your 3.x hardmode achievements. Although I'll just put this forward...nothing short of Yogg +1/+0, Anub in ToGC25, or a significant number of heroic ICC25 achievements would really impress me. I know that sometimes people look at raids and such and get all up on the, "lololol this r 2 ez lewl" high horse, but quite often it turns out they were running the lower tier raids or on the normal settings. Or they were running some of the lesser hardmode encounters, or running hardmodes when they were overgeared, etc. Which is fine that they found those raids easy...but they talk like Blizzard had intended for them to be hard when this past expansion has been all about getting as many people into the content and reserving the real challenge for the hardmode/heroic encounters. To their way of thinking, it was silly to spend so much time throughout a given expansion developing content that only 5% (or less) of their players would ever be able to see. In exchange for making the content more accessible, they ramped up the rewards for those succeeding in the hardmodes by offering slightly better gear across the board, unique achievements and titles as well as some fairly nifty mounts.

That's just raiding...the same goes for leveling Strip out all of the hours upon hours of waiting for a party in FFXI and I bet you'd have had people hitting level 75 in 3 months or less in FFXI just like you have people hitting 80 on their first character in < 3 months in WoW. I personally would not mind at all if SE gave us a game that took most players two years to reach a state of endgame readiness. I wouldn't mind at all...just as long as it's entertaining most of the way through and not a whole lot of frustrated time twiddling thumbs.

I don't play MMOs to be a hero. I don't shove my exploits and achievements in the face of others for their scrutiny and approval. I really don't care what they think of me for what I have or haven't accomplished. And in those cases where I've been unable to conceal my accomplishments either because I've got some hard to come by gear or a rare mount and people inquire about where I got it, it absolutely is a neat feeling...but not something that I think warrants ruining a game to create some artificial sense of challenge that alienates 90% of the game's paying subscribers. I think if you want to talk about the "WoW" factor, you can talk about accessibility and fun while maintaining an element of challenge for those who are truly interested in it.

There were a lot of endgame encounters in FFXI that I would have loved to have taken part in. Unfortunately, they were inaccessible. Either the spawn restrictions were too great or I found myself in the unfortunate position of playing a job that none of the shells running the content I wanted to see had a use for at the time (RNG/NIN post CoP nerf didn't help, either).

I'm not trying to defend WoW as the perfect game. I just think Blizzard got a lot of things right that people don't fully grasp when they go off on the "too easy" rants. And in doing so, they miss out on a lot of good aspects that could enhance FFXIV if the concepts were to e scrutinized by SE and implemented thoughtfully and carefully.
#16 Mar 19 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Maybe you just weren't very good at WoW.


Yeah, Cheese, it's not the game that sucked it's just you!(Sarcasm)

Standard WoW player response, thank you for your time.
#17 Mar 19 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you just weren't very good at WoW.


Yeah, Cheese, it's not the game that sucked it's just you!(Sarcasm)

Standard WoW player response, thank you for your time.


The point is that if someone is going to play the "too easy" card, I'd have a much easier time if they'd preface their assertion with something like, "When my guild downed Anub in ToGC25, we did <x> and <y> and after we downed him were like, 'Ya, too easy.'" But generally speaking, the people actually participating in the hardmode encounters found them to be about right. The people complaining about hardmode encounters being too easy are the top percentile raiders. As in...top 1% worldwide, or top 100 first kills...those kinds of players. I somehow doubt the FFXIV boards are flooded with top percentile WoW players. So on one hand you've got Blizzard designing base-level raid encounters specifically to be accessible (see also easy) and then players turning around and talking like clearing the encounters is some sort of statement to their level of skill. So I ask for clarification. "My guild cleared Uld25 normal after a few weeks of progression" easy, or "Algalon was a joke" easy?
#18 Mar 19 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Blizzard did get a lot of things right and the most important was making a game that appealed to a wider demographic which made it very succesful. WoW is too easy. It is a fact that appears in numerous forms all over the internet and not just my opinion. With that said FFXI was too hard for the average gamer. My point was that I don't wan't FFXIV to be like WoW. I like to overcome difficult scenarios while gaming and having to rely on other people for help. That is what seperated FFXI from WoW. I am biased because I am older and maybe didn't understand all the 15 years olds in WoW.

I think FFXI has more content also with all the rank missions and then to CoP missions for Sea. WoW led you on a path of similar quests in each zone. It seemed like FFXI there was more to pick from, maybe too much. Either way I did enjoy both, just one more than the other.
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#19 Mar 19 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you just weren't very good at WoW.


Yeah, Cheese, it's not the game that sucked it's just you!(Sarcasm)

Standard WoW player response, thank you for your time.


Maybe you should read his whole post.
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#20 Mar 19 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
Cheesdog wrote:
Blizzard did get a lot of things right and the most important was making a game that appealed to a wider demographic which made it very succesful. WoW is too easy. It is a fact that appears in numerous forms all over the internet and not just my opinion. With that said FFXI was too hard for the average gamer. My point was that I don't wan't FFXIV to be like WoW. I like to overcome difficult scenarios while gaming and having to rely on other people for help. That is what seperated FFXI from WoW. I am biased because I am older and maybe didn't understand all the 15 years olds in WoW.


I'm 33. I played WoW. And you haven't really addressed my questions. I wouldn't have to look too hard to find an abundance of "fact" posts saying the FFXI was just bad, but you wouldn't agree, would you? I've asked you to expound on just what content you've cleared that has led you to the conclusion that WoW is too easy. If you're not able to do that, your "facts" are not more than hearsay.
#21 Mar 19 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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His post was good and this is the discussion I was going for when I created the post. Thanks for defending me though. :)
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#22 Mar 19 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I got to level 70 on a troll hunter in about 2 months and regarding the instances I was going in I couldn't tell you much. I didn't plan them or do research I just showed up and stuck some arrows in some bad dudes with my brother's guild. Never once did we fail and more times than not the guild was in discussion about how disappointed they were. Atleast two years ago before they raised the level cap is when I quit so they may have added some endgame stuff that is more challenging, but what was easy was leveling quick, getting the best gear, and being rich without much difficulty. I didn't care as much because it didn't have the same passion as FFXI, that was my point.
Regarding sucking at WoW, I was a hunter.
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#23 Mar 19 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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*Sigh* at the Wow vs FFXI fights all over the place. Nearly all of the fights are coming from one side, who played one 'til endgame, and the other half way. I played both FFXI, and WoW to and through endgame multiple times. Unfortunately, I am short on time, but I would still like to toss in my two cents.

All the people that say WoW is too easy, as others have said, hadn't played hard modes or even end game WoW probably. The fights in nearly all end game raids were hard because you did not stand still, you had to move when a boss used a certain move. During most fights you are constantly moving/dodging the bosses powerful attacks or triggers, and you had to be on top of it, or else you would die.

FFXI end game, so many people say it was hard... no... A 1+ hour long fight, standing still, waiting for your attack, is not hard... it is aggravating to say the least. I don't know how many people share the same opinion, but honestly.

WoW in general, yes, it is easy. FFXI in general, not so easy, endgame is easy because you attack, grab a coffee, relax in a chair, wait for a little tp to build, fire off a WS if it suits you, cast again. Repeat.

I know it completely sounds like I am biased, but honestly I loved FFXI over WoW any day, I just had to voice my opinion to clear up the air on this matter, and this matter alone.

Both games I have played to exhaustion throughout the years, both bringing me to the brink of boredom until I quit. . . and honestly, I just want FFXIV to mix the best of both games.

/end-pointless-rant
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#24 Mar 19 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly I think it's just a matter of personal preference. If anything I'd say that FFXI is too tedious for the average gamer, not too hard.

IMO 50% of people who say WoW is too easy have never played it. 35% have never played it seriously. I'm probably being generous if I say the remaining 15% have actually played long enough to have any kind of valid opinion. Perhaps the OP falls into that 15%, if so then on this board he represents the exception, not the rule.

I'm just glad I didn't listen to the FFXI > WoW circle jerk echo chamber back when I first gave the game a try, I would've missed out.

Don't get me wrong, I like FFXI, there's a reason I'm still playing. But that doesn't mean I have to bash WoW at every opportunity. If Cataclysm came out tomorrow I'd be back on my Hunter.

Looking back I see I've come across a bit hostile, if so forgive me, I just wish people would pick another target. Then again at least they're aiming high.
#25 Mar 19 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I like this civil discussion. I probably do fall into that 15% but the game never really hooked me.
It is definately a matter of opinion of which game you like better. I cannot convince someone to like
pizza when they want to eat fried chicken. There are a lot of people that hate FFXI for the things that I like
about it, there are people that love WoW for the things I didn't like about it. I think most of us are agreeing
that FFXIV can take alot of what is good about both games and hit a homerun if they do it right, meaning content
that can appeal to the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer. In my research it seems like that may be their intent,
but we will have to wait and see. Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
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#26 Mar 19 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Agamemnos wrote:
FFXI end game, so many people say it was hard... no... A 1+ hour long fight, standing still, waiting for your attack, is not hard... it is aggravating to say the least. I don't know how many people share the same opinion, but honestly.

WoW in general, yes, it is easy. FFXI in general, not so easy, endgame is easy because you attack, grab a coffee, relax in a chair, wait for a little tp to build, fire off a WS if it suits you, cast again. Repeat.


I'm not trying to be negative with this comment, but I'm guessing you weren't a mage in endgame FFXI? As my experience with endgame was obviously a lot different, not that endgame was harder being a mage, but there was a lot more to do then that, and if I'd gone to get a coffee, it would not have turned out well.
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#27 Mar 19 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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I really think that people who said WoW is NOT easy are just people that still really enjoy the game. I'm currently playing
WoW and have played both FFXI and WoW for a long time. WoW was way harder before its expansions. They've made leveling, making money, getting gear, instancing, and fighting in general easier. (Remember when you had to be behind mobs to mutilate? waaaah! ok ok, you can do it from any side!)

I have an 80 rogue and I can go into any content that isn't raid content and blast through it in a pug group without really even paying attention to fights and without ANY communication at all. With all the implementations they did to make the game "more efficient" or what not with the dungeon queues, you literally don't have to
talk to anyone levels 1-80. There are no quests that require you to group to move on, or even if you DO group things, you don't have to talk.

Now I don't do raid content, because I just don't want to be on a raiding schedule, I don't want video games to be scheduled over other things that may come up. However, most people that I talk to that have played end game content (in game, on forums, whatever) say that the end game content is boring. And these are people that still play the game religiously and aren't even looking inot other games or comparing it. Plain and simple, "it's boring, or easy, compared to vanilla wow". And even in vanilla wow, part of the problem was trying to get 40 people who weren't brainless.

I don't really know about FFXI endgame so I'm not going to compare. But in all honesty, WoW is easy
#28 Mar 19 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
This may stir up some commotion. ADDONS!!!

I absolutely hate user written addons and I use them pretty much too their full extent. I hope FFXIV will have zero addons.

Auctioneer: Allows automatic undercut, batch posting and much more. I use this addon to sell glyphs; I post about 120 different glyphs with little effort undercutting the competition. Right now I'm constantly fighting with people using the addon so there's a never ending spiral of undercuts.

Deadly Boss Mods: You don't have this you fail and can't raid in WoW. Boss fights became so hard that this addon is required. It tells you exactly when you got to move your *** or you will wipe the raid.

Omen: Shows highest threat on Boss. With this addon takes out the worry about passing tank's threat because you just slow your dps or use threat reducing ability if you are going to hit the threshold that pulls aggro.

There's many more addons. Should Square-Enix allow user written addons?


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#29 Mar 19 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Now I don't do raid content


Everything outside of raid content is easy because it's designed for rare gear at start of release. Everyone wearing raid gear just blast through it. End game raid content is not easy.

Only 3.28% of all guilds killed Lich King on 25 man in normal mode registered on WoW Progress.

No guild has killed Lich King on 25 man in heroic mode.

http://www.wowprogress.com/
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#30 Mar 19 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
This may stir up some commotion. ADDONS!!!


I dislike addons as well.
Add-ons are the equivelent of UUDDBA/Select/Start that you don't actually have to do anything to activate. I explained this to someone the other day in the context of console gaming, The hidden tricks and secret tunnels and such programmed into a game are meant to be used and aren't cheats. Cheats are codes and such added in later to make it all that much easier. SO Add-ons are just cheats.

Being Uber efficient at killing bosses because you have 3 add-ons that let you react fast doesn't make a player good, it makes a player lazy. Why learn how to play when the add-ons will walk you through.

Sorry, I just hate em.

Sadly though, every game has add-ons, and every game has lazy twits who'll use them. AS much as I'd love to see em go away I fear they never will :(.
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#31 Mar 19 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well right off, there's the difference that WoW has like 10x the people that FFXI does. There are people/guilds who stand out in WoW, but since they have alts instead of a single character (one of the best things FFXI ever did) and there are so many more people, it's harder to notice one person's achievements.

However, I totally agree with the Cheesdog's idea here. I loved being recognized for my ability at my job and for my personality (few things make you feel good like people asking you to come along just for your company ^^). I loved having my friends become well-known, and taking pride in hearing other people talk about them.

It really took being away from FFXI and playing so many other MMOs to appreciate what FFXI did sooo right. I can't wait to build up my character in FFXIV and hopefully earn that kind of recognition again.
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#32 Mar 19 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think people are too often confusing their dislike for the overly streamlined simplicity in WoW for 'being too easy.' There are difficult encounters and raids in WoW. Sometimes very difficult. The majority of the content is easy, (way too easy, in my opinion), but that easiness is what appeals to the casual gamers that flood the servers, and Blizzard has profited greatly from it.

No matter how you look at it, WoW is very simple and shallow in terms of game mechanics and depth, but again, it was a good decision by Blizzard to ensure very wide cross-over appeal.

Do I personally want this for XIV? No, not really. Not at all. Most of the reasons casuals like WoW are the same reasons I grew to dislike it. I would rather be completely overwhelmed by information, game mechanics and strategies than be bored.

I just want XIV to be smidge more casual than XI. I'm hoping WoW will continue to be the largest draw to casual players while XIV will fill the smaller, more hardcore niche, along with EVE.

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 12:52pm by Kirbster
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#33 Mar 19 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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I just hope that the whole process is not easy. WoW endgame is not super easy, especially hard modes. My 25ToGC (I did two runs) got to anub and didn't win. Getting the gear to enter ToGC 25 was super easy though. Getting to 80 so I could get the gear was super easy. Getting gold so I could be a part of the economy was super easy. Just because one part of the game is hard it doesn't make the game hard. I hope throughout progression we are challenged to perform our job as best as possible, not just when in hardmode 25s (a good example would be the maat fight, where before you progressed you had to be proficient at your job).
#34 Mar 19 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Kirbster wrote:
I just want XIV to be smidge more casual than XI.


I'd like a little more than a smidge. Perhaps, a bit? Smiley: grin
#35 Mar 19 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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This entire thread just...
Screenshot

Let's start off small.
Elmyrsun wrote:
Add-ons are the equivelent of UUDDBA/Select/Start that you don't actually have to do anything to activate. I explained this to someone the other day in the context of console gaming, The hidden tricks and secret tunnels and such programmed into a game are meant to be used and aren't cheats. Cheats are codes and such added in later to make it all that much easier. SO Add-ons are just cheats.

You're just entirely wrong. Cheats aren't "stuff added in later to make it easier." Cheats are actions that go against the rules of the game. Speed hacking in an MMORPG is cheating because there is a rule about the usage of third party programs. Peaking at your opponents cards in poker is cheating because you aren't allowed to do that. It has absolutely nothing to do with how easy a feature makes the game or when it was added.

Unless there are rules against the add-ons they aren't in any way cheating. This is especially true for games like WoW and HoN which encourage the use of add-ons developed by the community.

Now to the meat of the thread.
Chessdog wrote:
You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW.

Incorrect. But it is done so differently in WoW than in FFXI.

Standing out in FFXI was mostly about having lots of time and lots of cash. If you had the Peacock charm at level 33, then everyone in your level bracket knew your name. WoW simply doesn't have items that a low level can buy that max level people dream of getting; it's not possible in that game. In FFXI there was a huge disparity in gear between rich players and poor players, and that kind of disparity wasn't possible in WoW. It's also exacerbated by the very low skill cap in FFXI. If you were a melee character, you basically had to point yourself in the right direction, activate your class abilities every 3-5 minutes, and use a ws when you had 100% tp and you were about as effective as you were ever going to be. Gear--and therefore money--mattered so much more than personal skill or ability in FFXI for most every class.

The problem with FFXI's "standing out" is that it was entirely based on having kings and peasants. If you were a king, you really stood out in FFXI, because you had the option and chose to spend egregious amounts of time farming or bought gil. However, this kind of power is relative. In order for 1 king to stand out, there had to be 10 peasants there to make him feel special. Many people don't want to play this type of game, and with good reason.
#36 Mar 19 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The problem with FFXI's "standing out" is that it was entirely based on having kings and peasants. If you were a king, you really stood out in FFXI, because you had the option and chose to spend egregious amounts of time farming or bought gil


That's not entirely true. If you were a good party leader, or a good player, you would often be known by people in certain brackets while leveling up. Based on your abilities to perform and organize. I never had a lot of gil in FFXI cause I felt like farming for hours and hours was like a job and I didn't want that from a game. However, I was known by some people in certain level brackets cause I always started up groups.

Now people probably wouldn't remember me for the rest of their time in FFXI

Quote:
No guild has killed Lich King on 25 man in heroic mode.


Just because they put in content that will pretty much 1 or two shot tanks doesn't make it hard. I've heard of how certain bosses will do like 60K damage in one hit none crit or whatever. I don't really count that as "hard" I count that as "scaled up". I'm talking about combat that requires people to work together and have a strategy that will lead them to victory.

And while I hadven't done raid content in WotLK, I did in vanilla wow. Raid content in vanilla WoW was great. The trash pulls were interesting and you had to do them a certain way or you could wipe the whole raid (on trash!). A lot of people find that this is gone in the new expansions, not just me.
#37 Mar 19 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Cheesdog wrote:
Money issues, countercamping NMs HNMs, god pop items, CoP missions, you name it...I loved it. I was known for being good at my job in the FFXI, known for having the best gear, our LS was contacted by other LSs to help with strategy on things. You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW.


As someone who enjoyed both games for what they were, you lost me at this point.

There is an overwhelming idea amongst FFXI fans that tedious means hard. Money issues, spawn camping issues ... having to run around the world for hours to complete simple tasks.

Hard and Tedious - not the same.

WoW's hardmode raid content is a challenge in a video-game like way. You know - press the right buttons at the right times, avoid obstacles, monitor resources, and ultimately succeed or fail. It IS hard, but certainly not insurmountable by anyone with reasonable coordination, game knowledge and experience. It doesn't have any of the elements that makes FFXI tedious, so it might not seem hard to a seasoned FFXI'er, but it is hard in it's own way.

WoW arena, of course, has become a spectator sport, and competing at a professional level takes a level of skill simply unmatchable by anything in FFXI. That's okay, though, because FFXI is not a PvP game, and by virtue of its use of a ranking system where only the top 0.1% of skilled players are good enough, only a PvP-oriented game could compete.

Going forward into FFXIV, I really hope for more of a game-play oriented (rather than task-oriented) approach. I would still like to see in-depth character development being epic, like it is in FFXI, but not tedious.
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#38 Mar 19 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I would honestly prefer if FFXIV is more toward FFXI on the level of difficulty. I play games for 2 reason 1)to have fun and 2) to feel like ive accomplished something after doing so. WoW was just waaay to easy. I'll expand on that i played FFXi for 4years I had only 2 maxed lvl jobs and when I got those I was estatic and thrilled I felt I had actually accomplished something in doing so and thats not even counting all the missions and side quests and raids there was to do which in general were alot tougher the WoW has ever offered so far. I played WoW since pre-bc and the last time WoW ever seemed difficult to me was pre-bc since then the game has been steadily declining in difficulty/fun factor. Before you come and try to flame me let me say this much Hardmodes Ive done them all minus the lichking himself and I did the hard modes when first available. I was not in a guild that was in the top 1% worldwide nor was I in a hardcore raiding guild and I found only ONE hardmode to be even somewhat difficult and no it was yogg or anub/totc25 and flame me on it if you will or not but it was the safety dance in naxx if you didnt time your movements right you wouldnt get the achieve and god forbid if somebody in the raid had even a bit of lag. That being said I still got that achievement on the 3rd try lol.

But on the side note FFXIV could stand to be a bit easier toward time factors. But if FFXIV is gimped on everything and just not time restraints I prolly wont play it for very long at all. I see no point if everybody and their lopsided brother can go and doing something in an hour at the max.
#39 Mar 19 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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WoW arena, of course, has become a spectator sport, and competing at a professional level takes a level of skill simply unmatchable by anything in FFXI.


It takes skill, but let's not oversell spamming the cheapest rotations, wearing the best gear and taking advantage of the most current overpowered class.

Most BGs (provided the teams are evenly matched) take more strategy, teamwork and planning.

If XIV were to take anything PvP-wise from WoW, I'd probably want it to be BG-style battles.





edit: lol defaulted

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 3:27pm by Kirbster
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#40 Mar 19 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
WoW arena, of course, has become a spectator sport, and competing at a professional level takes a level of skill simply unmatchable by anything in FFXI.


It takes skill, but let's not oversell spamming the cheapest rotations, wearing the best gear and taking advantage of the most current overpowered class.


At the tournament level, gear is completely irrelevant (it is supplied on tournament servers and is the same for everyone, based on class of course. You usually get a bag full of top tier items to choose from). There are no rotations in arenas. It really does become about reflexes, team composition, team work, coordination, and an extremely deep understanding of game mechanics, spells, abilities, etc.

Edited, Mar 19th 2010 5:33pm by Jordster
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#41 Mar 19 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Default
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Jordster - I see your point they were time consuming things but for some weird reason I liked these things. I looked at making money as a challenge. I enjoyed showing up at a spawn and having to compete for it with other linkshells. I liked the competition aspcet of it all. Some of it was tedious and I would like to see the time consuming things scaled back a bit.

As a response to the "kings and peasants" analogy I completely disagree. There was plenty of skill involved in FF and I cared very little about the best gear but how people performed at their jobs. I was in one of the first NA groups to finish all the CoP missions for Sea and my group took it upon ourselves to get as many people through as we could. Some people just didn't have the skill to complete those missions.

I didn't expect this to turn into a debate as to which game is better. I did enjoy WoW and got to play with my brother which was fun but I just liked FFXI better for reasons I have already listed.
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#42 Mar 19 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Jordster wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
WoW arena, of course, has become a spectator sport, and competing at a professional level takes a level of skill simply unmatchable by anything in FFXI.


It takes skill, but let's not oversell spamming the cheapest rotations, wearing the best gear and taking advantage of the most current overpowered class.


At the tournament level, gear is completely irrelevant (it is supplied on tournament servers and is the same for everyone, based on class of course. You usually get a bag full of top tier items to choose from). There are no rotations in arenas. It really does become about reflexes, team composition, team work, coordination, and an extremely deep understanding of game mechanics, spells, abilities, etc.


At the highest level, I agree. But outside of the tournaments it's still pretty much stunlocks, gear and bandwagoners.

I think the larger scale battles minimalize the sometimes painfully obvious class imbalances while promoting the same skills as arena. I've personally always found them more fun when with skilled players, anyway. Maybe it's just a personal preference for objective-based PvP rather than straight up deathmatch.
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#43 Mar 19 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirbster wrote:


At the highest level, I agree. But outside of the tournaments it's still pretty much stunlocks, gear and bandwagoners.

I think the larger scale battles minimalize the sometimes painfully obvious class imbalances while promoting the same skills as arena. I've personally always found them more fun when with skilled players, anyway. Maybe it's just a personal preference for objective-based PvP rather than straight up deathmatch.


I also prefer BGs over arena. In fact, personally, I grew to dislike arena around 1850-1900. At that point, it became stressful for me. Literally - stressful. A single mistake would easily cost my team a match. Losing a match could mean a huge slide in rating. At around 1850, I started to plateau. I love PvP, but started to dislike it because my reflexes just aren't fast enough to compete with the younger audience that generally rises to the top of the arena brackets.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but Cataclysm is going to include rated BGs. Personally, I am very excited for them. While it is still unknown how they will be implemented, I think it could potentially be a lot more fun than the chaotic, life-or-death nature of arena.

As for class imbalance, it really doesn't exist any more. There is a lot of rock-paper-scissors, but since they brought Rets and DKs down to everyone else's level around the beginning of the second season of WOTLK, classes are actually considered by most to be in pretty good balance overall.
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#44 Mar 19 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Ah, I quit at the peak of Ret and DK spamming in arena. It was frustrating, to say the least.

Rated BGs? Intriguing. Now that sounds fun.
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#45 Mar 19 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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(in no particular order and I'm sure I’m missing some stuff)

Keep from WoW:

guild banks
flying mounts (more useful land mount while we’re at it)
complex boss fights
ample storage space
yes, 3rd party mods (some of them)
mail as much stuff as you want!
fast logout in Town

Leave with WoW

Crappy crafting system
Comic book/cartoon artwork
Too easy (i.e. the whole game up to the ‘newest dungeon’)
Constantly nerfing old content every patch
TOO soloable
Too easy of transportation (lfg system..)
Class/race restrictions (pssh racist)
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#46 Mar 20 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Standing out in FFXI was mostly about having lots of time and lots of cash. If you had the Peacock charm at level 33, then everyone in your level bracket knew your name. WoW simply doesn't have items that a low level can buy that max level people dream of getting; it's not possible in that game. In FFXI there was a huge disparity in gear between rich players and poor players, and that kind of disparity wasn't possible in WoW. It's also exacerbated by the very low skill cap in FFXI. If you were a melee character, you basically had to point yourself in the right direction, activate your class abilities every 3-5 minutes, and use a ws when you had 100% tp and you were about as effective as you were ever going to be. Gear--and therefore money--mattered so much more than personal skill or ability in FFXI for most every class.
Why do I keep seeing things like this in the XIV forums. Hum, well, lets see now.

I just love how people over-simplify FFXI combat when trying to make a point of it against WoW. I've already had a rather lengthy (and frustrating) argument with Aurelius about skill in this game - but I suppose it needs reiterating - gear means **** compared to skill. Pretty easy to see when I'm consistently outparsing every single other person with far better gear than me.

There is so many little factors involved in combat that your summary leaves out that can make huge, huge differences in overall damage done.

Gear (and therefore money.. what? almost everything I wear is ra/ex - unless you're implying anybody who has any nice ra/ex item paid for it) < Skill. Otherwise there should of been no reason I was consistently coming in top DD on my SAM with a pathetic +40~ STR WS set, no Byakkos haidate, NQ gear in every slot, and lack of merits compared to people who were geared better in every possible way.

As for "kings" standing out - the only case where money makes you stand out, that I can recall, are the cases where somebody is a total douche who thinks he is superior because he's richer than everybody else. I remember people for their skill, dedication and overall attitude. Do you actually realise how little people use /check? With FFXI's limited gear skins you aren't going to be telling the difference between a Haub and Haub+1, or dusk gloves +1. And as for relic users, who are the most obvious of the "well-geared". Well, on my server a relic is usually a sign of an idiot - we have so many who just suck. If gear was as important as you've made it sound, shouldn't these people have automatically been destroying anybody else?

And you're only getting into melee skill (and really, only describing MNK WAR and DRG). The skill difference between mages can be staggering. Sure you could just write my entire post off by saying "everybody is stupid then - FFXI doesn't need skill" like most do or with a "my experiences are contrary" but I'm letting you know about this from my perspective.
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#47 Mar 20 2010 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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It was easy to see the difference between good and bad player when I ran my Salvage Linkshell. Some people had main jobs as mage, some others were melee focused. When those people used their main jobs, everything went as planned and we accomplished a lot within the time limit (even if they weren't as well geared as could be).

However, when I had to tell someone to come as a job that isn't his main, and he hasn't got too much experience about it aside from leveling it to 75, it made a huge difference. Sure, they could do the basics, but the little things stack up. Especially when it came to working together with other members (which I consider part of the "skill" in this case- actually, in XI it might have been even more important than anything else), they couldn't really do it. Even if they did, it was slow and inefficient at best.

Skill is the factor that makes the biggest difference. Especially in the micromanagement level, because there's a lot of that in XI for almost every job. Allegory, your definition of melee combat would have meant that we'd have lost 50% of our efficiency had everyone acted like that. Exaggeration doesn't belong to an argument.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#48 Mar 20 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Cheesdog wrote:
Had to use the play on words. Let me set the mood first...I played endgame FFXI with a passion 3x jobs to 75 took down all the nasties and what not, but I also played WoW to the endgame runs and took down most of the nasties without the same passion as FFXI. To quote the great Enigo Montoya, "Let me splain, no let me sum up..." WoW was/is too freaking easy which led to less of a movement to find the best players on the server that were required to hunt the nasties. FFXI was difficult to say the least. Money issues, countercamping NMs HNMs, god pop items, CoP missions, you name it...I loved it. I was known for being good at my job in the FFXI, known for having the best gear, our LS was contacted by other LSs to help with strategy on things. You could stand out in FFXI but not in WoW. I never made the friends in WoW I made in FFXI and never was recognized for accomplishments in WoW. It felt good that people would ask me in FFXI seconds after I signed on to join their parties because I did a good job and was almost funny sometimes.

There is a point for discussion --- Will FFXIV have that easy "WoW factor" or still have an edge like FFXI that can make for real heroes and celebrities in game?

My desire is to keep it were only the most dedicated players will get the best stuff, but back off from the FFXI intensity just a little.


It was the other way around for me. FFXI endgame was super easy I thought and wow endgame was pretty **** hard(wipe after wipe). sure leveling in wow is easy and heroics are cake but actual endgame is pretty hard. FFXI was hard in the sense that it was slow and you needed to pay more attention but nothing more.

I could sit around in dynamis and cast a few spells and we would be alright. In wow if everyones not doing their best and doing their job its a wipe...

and as for friends I didnt make many in ffxi but made a ton in wow... weird how its different for some people right?

____________________________
-Character Name: Djinnrb (old)
-Server: CaitSith
-Jobs:BLU75 BRD75 THF67 PLD 44 DRG 44 DNC39 NIN37
----------------------------------
-Character Name: Lightpalm
-Asura
-Jobs: WAR54 WHM53 RNG35 SAM70 RUN70
----------------------------------


http://ffxiv.zam.com/wiki/FFXIV_Leveling_Guide

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#49 Mar 20 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
and as for friends I didnt make many in ffxi but made a ton in wow... weird how its different for some people right?


It is interesting,I suspect that some personalities just work better in some environments.
You're probably just more comfortable in the hectic environment of WoW, I prefer to chill and chat while I murder something ugly, lol.

I had some serious good friends in RL from 11. But just couldn't get into the WoW community, didn't find it to be a terribly conversational place out side of just the in game "LFG DPS 5000 or Booted" tech chatter.

I also still attribute the differences in the communities to the 1 toon vs. altaholics wet dream arguement, lol. I'm chatty and really like getting to know the people I game with, so seeing the same guy in game for years on end, looking the same with the same name, really makes that possible.(I know, dead horse)

I have the same problem in CoH, some really cool people but everyone has so many alts I have no clue who's on my team player wise. But in CoH the look of the character are so customizable that rather than remembering names and such I remember that "Hey I've partied with this Neon Green robot before!" lol BUt the level cap is only 50 and if you farm for XP you can hit it pretty quickly so people change alts like they change socks. So I may only get to play with that Neon Green Robot 2 or 3 times ever.

Oh well, one fake world works for some, a different fake world works for others. It is interesting though.

I'd love to meet some people who really love 11 in RL just to hang for an evening, like at a bar or something, and then hang with a Groups of Hardcore WoW players just to see if they really are that different personality wise in RL or if it's just a gaming style thing. Perhaps a correlation can be drawn between the general choice of game, for example perhaps more WoW players enjoy the wicked fast pace of a FPS or high pace action game, whereas many many 11 players may prefer strategy games or RPG's that take much longer to succeed in(purely a speculative argument). It might make for an interesting research topic, why different game worlds appeal to different people, it's probably out there, I just haven't seen it.

grammar edit

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 1:09pm by Elmyrsun
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#50 Mar 20 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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With all the attention on virtual world video games it may not be long before we see psych studies of different vr worlds and their characters. Wasn't there a situation where a disease spread through WoW and it was used in studying how real life diseases can spread? It really is cool to think of what these games have come to.
Tad Williams wrote a good series of books titled Otherland which is a cool sci-fi look into the future of vr gaming and what can come from it. After reading this series is what got me interested in playing FFXI, surprised I don't see more Thargors in mmos.
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#51 Mar 20 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with the point of comparing it with other FF titles. Other FF titles besides Lulu's (FFX)ultimate weapon are relatively easy to obtain or well at least not 3 years in the making. its great if their are tough monsters that only a few dedicated people can get, and maybe even have a trophy system to reward them. However giving them exclusive armor, and not just fancy exclusive armor but BETTER armor is dumb. Its not fair to the rest of the players to make such content so exclusive, and if you can beat the biggest bad things, why would they give you something to make you even stronger? it makes no sense. The game needs new methods to drive 'hardcore' players, while giving access to everyone. And the armor can still be hard to get, but it shouldn't be some rare drop of an enemy that guarantees only a few people can get it over an allocated time.
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