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Will XIV have the WoW factor?Follow

#52 Mar 20 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I think both games have their pros and cons, I wouldn't rank either over the other.

FF11 is more for serious gamers though and no doubt 14 will be also, thats not to say that FF11 is harder it's just more time consuming.

One thing is for sure though if SE want FF14 to be more successful than 11 they will need to make it a lot more accessible to casual gamers, not everyone can *or even wants to* spend 6 hours grinding non stop in an XP party 7 days a week.
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#53 Mar 20 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I never got past level 40 on WoW before being dragged to another MMO, and that was before any of the expansions came out. The main two things that bugged me were actually the altaholic attitude and the graphics, mostly because FFXI was my first MMO and it set a wonderful standard for them both. But honestly, I'd choose WoW graphics over a lot of other MMOs that are out there now, especially the ones that try to look realistic or anime style but don't quite hit it.

I had a friend that lived down the street from me that played WoW to endgame, doing all those raids and bragging about the 'world first', I think. I'm not sure if that meant that they did the most challenging raids, but I did pop over a few times and I saw how they fought the bosses and whatnot. Playing FFXI, it made it seem like so much fun! You have to run around, always be on the ball, as if it's an console game adventure level thrown into an MMO.

But it made me wonder, aren't the drop rates in WoW so much higher than FFXI? I mean, if they had things like that in FFXIV, and assuming that FFXIV had drop rates similar to FFXI, wouldn't you just get SICK of it after the first few times? Imagine doing Dynamis, but having to jump around and be constantly at attention at every monster?

I'd love to do it the first few times, but I remember when people had been doing Dynamis for something like two years just to get one item. It would be a lot less stressful the way FFXI already has implemented. That's not to say that I wouldn't like to see more 'interactive' things in FFXIV! But if they throw terrible drop rates at us again, what style would you rather choose?
#54 Mar 20 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Skill really isn't why people think FFXI is harder. It's accessibility. Some people confuse inaccessibility with difficulty. I can see why that would be easy enough to do.

The community in WoW has always been an issue of contention, and for good reason. It attracts quite a diverse crowd. A few dozen loudmouth teenagers is enough to annoy the **** out of thousands of people in public chat channels. It would be very easy to mistake that for a bad community. FFXI doesn't have public chat channels and /sh only carries so far. I've seen L75s in FFXI with names like "spankindamonky" and such, so there are surely a few annoying folks on that side of the fence, as well. The truth is that in both games you will get the most out of it, community-wise, if you join a good guild/linkshell.

SE has promised that FFXIV will be more accessible than XI. Hopefully it will strike that perfect middle ground that so many of us are hoping for.
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#55 Mar 20 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
I just love how people over-simplify FFXI combat when trying to make a point of it against WoW. I've already had a rather lengthy (and frustrating) argument with Aurelius about skill in this game - but I suppose it needs reiterating - gear means sh*t compared to skill. Pretty easy to see when I'm consistently outparsing every single other person with far better gear than me.

Then that other person is a pretty huge failure.

MMORPGs in general are fairly easy games. It's not so much that FFXI alone is easy, though it's easier than a few of the others out there, but the genre as a whole is pretty easy. That isn't to say MMORPGs aren't fun, but it's dishonest to say that FFXI is difficult.

When I talk about FFXI having a skill cap, I mean the level of "skill" at which a player reaches "perfect play." What many players fail to understanding is that the relationship between skill and performance has a hard ceiling. There is a certain point at which you cannot be better at the game, the point at which you are doing everything correctly, you never make a wrong decision. In some games this ceiling is practically unreachable (chess, FPS, and many fighting games for example). In other games this ceiling is realistically reachable (tic tac toe and Connect 4 for example). The skill cap in many MMORPgs for most of what you do is very realistically reachable.

Tic tac toe for example is a solvable game and also a solved game. A perfect game (a game where neither play makes any mistakes) between two players always ends in a draw. Since the number of possible games of tic tac toe is so few it's actually fairly easy for a human to play a perfect game. No one can ever beat me at tic tac toe, not because I'm so very skilled, but because the game has a very low skill ceiling and it's not possible to lose tic tac toe when played correctly.

Skill can largely be considered a combination of decision based skills and execution based skills. Chess is an example of a game that is entirely decision based. Chess is all about making the right choices, and carrying out those choices (moving pieces) is ludicrously easy. FPS games, darts, and the like are games with very strong elements of execution and very low elements of decision based skills. It's very easy to make the right choice in darts or an FPS game (hit the spot with the most points or shoot the head), but carrying out that decision can be hard due to requirements of accuracy, reflexes, speed, and whatnot.

RPGs and MMORPGs are mostly decision based games. Pressing the button to cast a spell is very easy. There are some minor elements of execution based skill (reacting to tank damage and healing promptly, timing on skill chains and magic burst), but the time windows are usually so generous that it's child's play. If you find magic bursting or skill chaining hard with reasonable latency, then you're jsut bad at the game. So that leaves most of the "skill" left to decision making. Choosing the right abilities to use and when, focusing on the right targets, etc. However, as much as people like to pretend this is just so gosh darn hard, for most MMORPGs most of the time it really isn't. Not for WoW, and not for FFXI.

If you're a tanking pld/war, then using defender is trivial decision, it's so obvious it doesn't count. As a bard choosing to use archer's prelude on a ranger is a trivial decision. There are less obvious decisions to be made in FFXI, but most of the time you're making painfully obvious choices, and even the most difficult ones aren't that hard to figure out. It's easy to play FFXI perfectly. Once you begin playing FFXI perfectly, then skill ceases to matter, and it becomes mostly about gear. As a bard I played my class perfectly most of the time in exp groups, and also when doing BCNM40. The only thing that would have improved my performance was better equipment to lower resist rates, there was no more skill to add into the equation, and I definitely wasn't the only player in this situation.

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 4:08pm by Allegory
#56 Mar 20 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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MMO difficulty is based only on how long you are willing to wait before all the strategies are worked out. For example, I can remember playing even a year to 2 years after FFXI was released in NA. Even the earliest Prom runs were completed only by the upper tier in the game. I was told to level Rng and so I did. Still, it was next to impossible to find ANY help whatsoever for the missions. Even LS leaders that had completed them with other shells wouldn't offer any advice to their own shells. Partly because A.) they probably didn't know why they even won (lolanimas etc. Not widespread knowledge in those days) and also B.) The people who knew wanted to get their kicks before letting strategies become commonplace.

Nowadays, and even before the CoP nerf, I could complete Proms etc with my eyes closed as I'm sure everyone else in game can now. These same principles apply in WoW but considering how dang fast new content is released and also how Raja Ring equivalent type gears become yesterdays news so quickly, the WoW guilds in the know give that advice up even faster. This isnt even taking into account how Warcrafters set up guild vaults to help gear and fund even the lowest mems but also the fact that everyone runs 10+++ alts through all the missions almost monthly. Help is easy to come by.

The big difference between the two games' difficulty comes strictly from the almost luxurious features WoW offers. (I am a looooong time warcraft basher btw. Until I actually played it) I really hope FFXIV takes those ideas in consideration. In FFXI when you are dieing of thirst they offer you a water hose. In WoW, they give you beautiful service maids offering tall ice cold mojitos before you even break a sweat lol I know that's a stretch but the principle applies.

I have absolutely no problems with XIV pampering the players on the feature level. Keep the XI strategy and battle difficulty in place, combine it with great WoW-type service, add in the FF background and in 2 years we WILL be looking at the new MMORPG king. Period

#57 Mar 20 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
RPGs and MMORPGs are mostly decision based games. Pressing the button to cast a spell is very easy. There are some minor elements of execution based skill (reacting to tank damage and healing promptly, timing on skill chains and magic burst), but the time windows are usually so generous that it's child's play. If you find magic bursting or skill chaining hard with reasonable latency, then you're jsut bad at the game. So that leaves most of the "skill" left to decision making. Choosing the right abilities to use and when, focusing on the right targets, etc. However, as much as people like to pretend this is just so gosh darn hard, for most MMORPGs most of the time it really isn't. Not for WoW, and not for FFXI.

If you're a tanking pld/war, then using defender is trivial decision, it's so obvious it doesn't count. As a bard choosing to use archer's prelude on a ranger is a trivial decision. There are less obvious decisions to be made in FFXI, but most of the time you're making painfully obvious choices, and even the most difficult ones aren't that hard to figure out. It's easy to play FFXI perfectly. Once you begin playing FFXI perfectly, then skill ceases to matter, and it becomes mostly about gear. As a bard I played my class perfectly most of the time in exp groups, and also when doing BCNM40. The only thing that would have improved my performance was better equipment to lower resist rates, there was no more skill to add into the equation, and I definitely wasn't the only player in this situation.
I understand exactly what you're trying to say, but you're still oversimplifying it by a large amount.

I've met very, very few people who can play 'perfectly'. And I'm sorry but, the example about PLD just shows your inexperience - I'm not trying to insult you here, but you should rarely be using Defender on PLD. In exp it should only be touched to balance out Berserk (Berserk -> Vorpal -> Defender -> 100tp -> Cancel defender -> WS -> cancel Berserk). In end-game use of /war it should vary with what you're doing - but that's the thing, in MMO's you dont just have one default strategy.

As a DD you don't just play the same every time. Every situation is different. You have zerg situations - you have 1 vs many weak opponents, killing in a time-frame - you have one single extremely tough opponent that you can fight full time - you have one extremely tough opponent that you can only fight in certain windows or for limited time - etc. You may be able to play FFXI 'perfectly' in one situation but I've never met anybody who can be thrown into literally any situation (not even taking into account foreign situations) and be able to play to the absolute best the game mechanics will allow.

If FFXI was like you say, where most choices are 'painfully obvious' then why is there so so many people who apparently play badly? I like to believe the human race as a collective isn't that stupid. I prefer to believe that this skill cap ceiling is higher than you think.

And bard is possibly the most ludicrously easy option I can think of by the way, in terms of all 20 jobs - and yes I have played it at 75. Look more to something like BLU, SCH or PUP - there is an extremely limited amount of people who can play these jobs to their absolute potential and a whole lot of people who can't.


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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#58 Mar 21 2010 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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My post jumps around alot, but here goes..

Played FFXI starting in 2002 and til present, with breaks here and there.
Played WoW from second week it was out til present with breaks here and there.

Ive raided in both games at a high level.
Have a Mithra Rdm75 with 100+ merits, 1100+ MP pool, blah blah
Have a 80 Hunter with great stats I wont list out. Every tier from 0-9, I havent done much ICC.

I have found more challenge in playing my RDM. This is due to the "chess game" factor. I agree with whoever said it earlier in the thread.

The Hunter provided great enjoyment, having to push myself to top the meters...Recognition of being great dps was awesome, but less meaningful.
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Someone else mentioned earlier that we are comparing two very different games. The amount of attacks / heals whatever is very different between the two games. I found myself as a hunter having a ridiculous amount of abilities to use and on the RDM a smaller amount but more meaningful when I decided one over the other.

Whether in PVE or PVP my WoW character pretty much relied on me getting all my buttons pressed as fast as I can before the other person could do the same. In FFXI, the order and use of, or not of a certain ability is soo more decisive.
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The balance issue between the two games if very different. Every patch this that or the other has to be re-tuned in WoW. This month X Class is uber, etc etc.

FFXI has done far less tuning of jobs. Yeah there was a Ranger nerf here and a whatever else nerf there. But nowhere near the same. This ties in to the amount of abilities everyone had, in combination with the gear scaling. WoW is a river that is constantly reshaping itself. FFXI stands firm and has very little redirection when it comes to balance.
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I felt for a long time now that WoW has turned into a Pokemon contest. Gotta catch them all. I need to have all the mounts. I need all the achievements. I need all this or all that. I need to level 7 alts so I can get 2 crafts on each char up to perfect.
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To get to the point of the OP, I think we need to have some from both.More from FFXI but there are good things from WoW. As already mentioned the 1 character was the win factor in FFXI.

Sorry for the randomness.. =D

#59 Mar 21 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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LordFaramir wrote:
I've met very, very few people who can play 'perfectly'. And I'm sorry but, the example about PLD just shows your inexperience - I'm not trying to insult you here, but you should rarely be using Defender on PLD. In exp it should only be touched to balance out Berserk (Berserk -> Vorpal -> Defender -> 100tp -> Cancel defender -> WS -> cancel Berserk). In end-game use of /war it should vary with what you're doing - but that's the thing, in MMO's you dont just have one default strategy.

It isn't surprising that much of my knowledge is out of date; I stopped playing before CoP came out. Many of the parties I joined/formed were DD heavy, with 1 tank, 4 DDs, and me as brd/whm main healing while also taking care of buffs/debuffs and pulling. Enmity generation wasn't as much of an issue as mana conservation and preventing spike damage, and when plds did lose hate in our groups it was usually to the rng/nin, who at the time were top DD, with shadows up.
LordFaramir wrote:
As a DD you don't just play the same every time. Every situation is different. You have zerg situations - you have 1 vs many weak opponents, killing in a time-frame - you have one single extremely tough opponent that you can fight full time - you have one extremely tough opponent that you can only fight in certain windows or for limited time - etc. You may be able to play FFXI 'perfectly' in one situation but I've never met anybody who can be thrown into literally any situation (not even taking into account foreign situations) and be able to play to the absolute best the game mechanics will allow.

Sure not every single situation, and maybe not absolutely perfectly, but such a majority of the situations and close enough to perfection that it may as well be.

I suppose it ultimately depends on where you believe "par play" should be set at. If you believe the acceptable level of competency is fairly low (i.e. players that can't perform their class' key ability rotation properly) then the skill ceiling is going to be quite far off. If you hold player to a higher standard, then the ceiling comes much closer.
LordFaramir wrote:
If FFXI was like you say, where most choices are 'painfully obvious' then why is there so so many people who apparently play badly? I like to believe the human race as a collective isn't that stupid. I prefer to believe that this skill cap ceiling is higher than you think.

For the same reason many adults can still lose tic tac toe, one of the easiest solvable games out there (even children are capable of playing it perfectly). There are many reasons for this. Many people just don't care; not everyone is trying to play their best in an MMORPG all the time, most just want to have a little fun and relax. Some people are not suited for particular play styles; I'm terrible--pathetically bad--at RTS games even though I'm fairly competent at many other types of video games. And some people still just are not smart.
LordFaramir wrote:
And bard is possibly the most ludicrously easy option I can think of by the way, in terms of all 20 jobs - and yes I have played it at 75. Look more to something like BLU, SCH or PUP - there is an extremely limited amount of people who can play these jobs to their absolute potential and a whole lot of people who can't.

None of those classes were available at the time I was playing, so I can't comment on them. While I was playing the general consensus was that RDM and BRD were the most difficult classes to play, and in many of my groups I usually performed the roles of main healing and pulling in addition to the standard buff/debuff routine. At that time I don't believe there was anything more a single class could have done. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 2:01am by Allegory
#60 Mar 21 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Alright, well that context helps me to understand a little better. You've been away from the game for quite a long time and it has changed considerably in the way we play and the way we push ourselves.
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I suppose it ultimately depends on where you believe "par play" should be set at. If you believe the acceptable level of competency is fairly low (i.e. players that can't perform their class' key ability rotation properly) then the skill ceiling is going to be quite far off. If you hold player to a higher standard, then the ceiling comes much closer.
This seems quite subjective no? If this is true then there is little point debating over how high the ceiling is.

But you mention key ability rotation. For my classes I know that I don't really fit into a rotation, every time requires a little touch of adaptability - it isn't pressed 5 macros in sequence every few minutes. I say this game requires a fair amount of relative skill (relative to the other MMO's I've played or witnessed) because there is no easy way to play most of the jobs. There is no easy way to play a job like DRK. You have to constantly weigh up what is best for each individual situations, all monsters have different resist rates and levels - magic is a highly subjective thing to use in FFXI - moreso than any other game I've played. Generally spells can be fairly predictable but with the amount of variables, you need a vast amount of specified knowledge (skill) to know whats best.

Of all the MMO's I've witnessed or experienced, FFXI has shown me the most discrepancy between good players and bad players - but these things are shown by witnessing them in many different situations. You can easily be okay at one thing, but atrocious at everything else, even with the same jobs.

I'm not sure what the original point of contention was (did you say FFXI doesn't require much skill? iunno) but I can assure you from several years of playing that it does indeed. Moreso than other MMO's? I'm not sure - I never got into the very upper levels of most others but FFXI is definitely up there, I know that much.

Also how was it possible you both pulled and main-healed in a party with 4 DD's, tank and you? I remember partying back then involved far more downtime than it does now [sm](which is none in any half-decent party, thanks to far more MP options and just overall better classes/higher-skilled players). If you're doing all those three activities simultaneously I don't see how it's possible to avoid incredibly large moments of downtime when you've run out of MP.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 12:38pm by LordFaramir
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#61 Mar 21 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing I didn't like about WoW was the disparity in difficulty vs commitment. Now I played FFXI for over 6 years before going to WoW, so I'll admit that in my mind, everything I ever did in WoW was compared to FFXI since it was my first MMORPG. Probably not fair, but there it is. Here were my observations and feelings; YMMV, and that's fine.

1) It was WAY too easy to get to the level cap BECAUSE you could solo nearly the whole way. Unlike FFXI, you weren't -forced- to group at any point before 80. Some look at this as "Well it's easy because you don't spend all that time LFP". I look at it as "Because you're not forced to group, you're not forced to learn your role in a group, or how to play efficiently with other players."

Once people hit 70 (or 80) and have never grouped with anyone, or only grouped occasionally, you get a much much higher percentage of people that just do not know how to handle themselves. They run off and aggro ****, they break CC (To the point that no one even USES CC any more except in hard content because the easy content is so easy that it's "too hard" to use "advanced tactics" like CC which were staples in Vanilla and BC), they afk with no warning and/or frequently, they stand in fire, they find ways to get themselves killed (and then blame the tank and/or healer) that you could not have even IMAGINED.

Honestly, I really feel a little bit of forced grouping from 1 to cap would make the game a lot better, but I accept that I am in the minority there.

2) The difficulty disparity in "hard modes" is obvious and intended, and it seemed like the bulk of PUGs could not handle anything that had even a modicum of difficulty to it. I can't count the number of times I wiped to Hodir (enrage timer with him still at 2-3m left), until I went with a different group and not only cleared it in about 6 mins, but got all the achieves for it in one shot (except speed kill). This goes back to #1; it's so easy to get to level cap with no skill required until you hit raid content that most of the players are unskilled and sometimes downright retarded.

3) The frequent obsoletion of endgame content. Through Vanilla and BC, endgame content still remained valid when new content is introduced. You needed to do Tier 1 raids to get geared for T2, T2 raids to get geared for T3. In BC you needed to do T4 to get geared for T5 to get geared for T6... you couldn't hit 70 and be in Sunwell (and expect to not get your *** handed to you) a week later (unless your guild just force fed you gear from T4/5 raids, and even then that was still iffy).

Comparatively in WoW, there is virtually no reason besides achieves and raid weekly to ever do any raid content other than HIC/IC/ToGC/ToC and the weekly VoA/Ony if you really want to. Tier 7/8 level raids drop gear that is so worthless that no one cares to do them at all for their own purposes. Used to be (when Ulduar was new) that when you hit 80, you could run Naxx to get some gear to get you ready for harder raids, but ever since ToC, Naxx/OS/EoE gear are worthless. ****, you can get ilvl 232/245 in Heroics now, so to exacerbate #1, not only does the game not require you to group at all to GET to 80, it does not require you to do anything harder than 5 man content in order to be geared for the current tier of raid content, bypassing any other raids entirely.

The post-WotLK endgame crowd is so drunk on free purples that the community has largely devolved into a bunch of button-mashing, achievement-linking, skill-less retards. You haven't seen sad until you've seen Gluth in ENRAGE MODE and a bunch of people with GS of 5k+ who can't grasp the concept of kiting and killing adds. They won't die because their gear is so overwhelming to the encounter, but they can't kill it because they won't freaking pay attention so you'll be there all night watching his HP go from full to low to full to low to full to low... It's absurd how retarded some people can get and make EASY content hard.



So to my point, I like that the hard modes are actually challenging and would like to have done more of them, but since you don't PUG heroic raids, my options were to either leave my guild full of close friends (who couldn't get past Hodir on normal) to start hunting for a better guild to commit myself to, or just quit WoW because I had to choose between bailing on a guild I helped to build vs being able to do anything even remotely challenging in the game.

Once Cataclysm was announced, this is what I heard:
- Just like BC > LK, all of your current raid gear will be worthless and replaced AGAIN
- 5 More levels of grinding for each of your characters, yay!
- Oh, and Pansy-*** Garrosh is taking over the Horde because Pansy-*** Wrynn is taking Thrall away.


So that's why I personally quit WoW.

To Aurelius' point: I agree that the hard mode content is actually challenging and I did enjoy it; actually it was the only thing that challenged me in the game at all. I just feel that the easy content is too easy. Blizzard has mentioned the whole "top 5%" thing, and that the hard mode content will only ever be beaten by the best of the best because they're the only players good enough to do it; I counter by saying that if the game weren't so easy up until that point, a lot more people would be capable of taking on harder content.

Sure, FFXI had a lot of "artificial difficulty" and has a lower player base, but the result is that this difficulty weeded out the "me me me now now now gear gear gear" people (and sent them mostly to WoW, really) and left you with an endgame population that had a far lower percentage of blithering idiots when it came time to invite people to your LS for Dyna/sea/sky/Einherjar/etc. The "hard content" in FFXI will be seen by a far larger portion of FFXI's 75 players because they had to get better or quit on the way to 75. In WoW, there's no "Get better or give up" hurdle along the way that weeds out bads; that's why so many of them get to 80 (and suddenly find the content too hard for them) and that's why such a small percentage of a large player base will ever be able to beat the harder content.

It's like playing tic tac toe for 80 levels, and then having options of either Hungry Hungry Hippos or 3-D Chess at 80. They're not used to any difficulty at all and have to pick between ashing a button as fast as they can, or thinking on far more levels than they ever knew existed.

Once you factor in all of that, I just got fed up.

If guilds were like LSes (where you could hold several on a single character and go back and forth) I'd probably have stayed. If older raid content was still worth doing (Poor Naxx has been introduced, invalidated, reintroduced, and reinvalidated and Ony is going that way too), I'd probably have stayed.

But all I saw in WoW at the end was that I was forced to either find new friends or forsake any hope of clearing EASY raids (never ind hard modes), on top of the knowledge that any gear I get will be a fleeting memory that will only last until the next content patch at best.

My one regret was that I never managed to beat Arthas because by the second wing of IC, I was far too jaded to even care any more.

So here's hoping that FFXIV retains more difficulty than "regular mode" WoW, but not all the artificial difficulty of XI.
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#62 Mar 21 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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a WoW argument... how did it come to this?!
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#63 Mar 21 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Once people hit 70 (or 80) and have never grouped with anyone, or only grouped occasionally, you get a much much higher percentage of people that just do not know how to handle themselves.


City of Heroes just went through this. They implemented the "Architect" system. Player could make their own mission content for others to run. This was almost immediately turned into a Mega Farm, you could level to Cap in 1 day with the right mish. And suddenly, endgame got horrid. You had people playing Blasters(Ranger equivelent) who'd never pulled because they just shot at everything wildly for the first 50 levels and never actually knew what their job was for, so they run into the thick of it during a fight with an endgame boss and wonder why they died when they never had that problem in the Architect runs. It wasn't long until everyone had leveled some alts to 50 in no time and endgame skill kinda crashed, hard, and burst into flames, lol. But the Devs caught on and the Nerfhammer came down, XP farming is still possible but much slower. The actual content is meaningful again, for now.

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a WoW argument... how did it come to this?!


Doesn't it always? It's a battle that will rage Until 14 and Whatever WoW expansion after Cataclysm comes out, then people will be too busy playing the games to care(I hope).
#64 Mar 21 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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nah, people will still be arguing about efficiency.

My question to you: If the mob doesn't have a damaging AoE, is it really a big deal if you feed it TP?

and yes, that is a derailing question.
#65 Mar 21 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia wrote:
The thing I didn't like about WoW was the disparity in difficulty vs commitment. Now I played FFXI for over 6 years before going to WoW, so I'll admit that in my mind, everything I ever did in WoW was compared to FFXI since it was my first MMORPG. Probably not fair, but there it is. Here were my observations and feelings; YMMV, and that's fine.

1) It was WAY too easy to get to the level cap BECAUSE you could solo nearly the whole way. Unlike FFXI, you weren't -forced- to group at any point before 80. Some look at this as "Well it's easy because you don't spend all that time LFP". I look at it as "Because you're not forced to group, you're not forced to learn your role in a group, or how to play efficiently with other players."


That's not an uncommon argument. Unfortunately, sooner or later you still have to learn your role in a group. Whether you start learning it at level 10 or level 80 is largely irrelevant. How many hundreds of hours would the average FFXI player spend in groups while leveling from around level 10-12 up to 75? Do you really think there's anything so complex about your average xp party setup that requires anywhere near that amount of time to learn? Not really. Someone who is serious about making a contribution to a team will learn their role in a group regardless of when they start grouping. Someone who is indifferent to their performance for whatever reason won't. It's a question of attitude, not a question of when you're forced to start learning.

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Once people hit 70 (or 80) and have never grouped with anyone, or only grouped occasionally, you get a much much higher percentage of people that just do not know how to handle themselves. They run off and aggro sh*t, they break CC (To the point that no one even USES CC any more except in hard content because the easy content is so easy that it's "too hard" to use "advanced tactics" like CC which were staples in Vanilla and BC), they afk with no warning and/or frequently, they stand in fire, they find ways to get themselves killed (and then blame the tank and/or healer) that you could not have even IMAGINED.


Again...attitude. "You're in a group now. In groups, the tank pulls or the tank signals ready to the hunter for MD. You are not a tank. Please do not pull." Do you think your average semi-intelligent person would need more than that to learn that aspect of their role as a dps/healer in a group? No. They shouldn't. It's a pretty straightforward guideline. And for the record, people were just as atrocious for running off in FFXI (perhaps even moreso) than I've experienced in WoW, particularly at higher levels. At higher levels in WoW group content, if you're not a tank and you pull you typically wind up with a nice, comfy dirt nap for your folly, especially if you have a tank like me who will happily watch you die just to teach you a lesson.

I can't tell you how many missions I did in FFXI where things went to **** because people got scattered. It was certainly more common to have a cluster of individualistic morons sneak/invis and bolt only to wind up with a string of party members spread out through the zone, half of them lost, eventually leading to the depletion of health bars and much weeping and gnashing of teeth...a situation that could have easily been avoided if they had just remained together the whole time. But apparently, forced grouping should have cured them of this particular brand of stupidity. Yet it didn't. And it was rampant. Not the occasional, one off, "Oh look, one of the rare an morans of FFXI". Pretty much any CoP mission saw this phenomenon unfold as practically a guarantee. Any venture with a full party (or larger) into an underground zone was also almost sure to create issues. It was a common kvetch when I played FFXI that just getting your party to camp was half the battle. Forced grouping did not solve that. Hundreds of hours in parties, dozens upon dozens of ventures into hostile territory just to get to where you needed to be did not solve that.

"You're in a group now. We will be CC'ing one or more targets. Do not use any AoE that have damage effects that will break the CC." Hard to grasp? No. If people want to learn and contribute to the group, they'll learn. And quickly. If they don't care, they don't care. Again, nothing to do with forced grouping. How many times in FFXI would a BLM drop a Sleepga on a pack of adds only to have some would-be hero DD decide to try and off-tank and wake something up? Forced grouping solved that though, didn't it? Nope. It happened. A lot.

"Forced grouping teaches players how to be better at the game," is a tired old crock of ****. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny...it never did. It never will. People will learn because they want to learn whether they're in a group or solo.

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2) The difficulty disparity in "hard modes" is obvious and intended, and it seemed like the bulk of PUGs could not handle anything that had even a modicum of difficulty to it. I can't count the number of times I wiped to Hodir (enrage timer with him still at 2-3m left), until I went with a different group and not only cleared it in about 6 mins, but got all the achieves for it in one shot (except speed kill). This goes back to #1; it's so easy to get to level cap with no skill required until you hit raid content that most of the players are unskilled and sometimes downright retarded.


You speak as though every group you ever joined in FFXI at end-game was fully competent and capable of PUGing every endgame encounter. I know for a fact that they weren't when I played. Promyvion-Dem taught me that. Oh, did it ever teach me that. Accepting an invite to a group hosted by one of the top endgame shells on Siren thinking that finally...oh, finally...I'd have a chance to clear it after a handful of failed attempts previously because hey, these guys do endgame. They must know their stuff.

Nope. Bunch of incompetents, the lot of them. "Zerg until you win or you die and we'll raise you when your corpses flop out of the battlefield." Which they did. Many times. Not a single group out of the three full groups we brought that day made it through. They leveraged their cumulative skill as an end-game group and produced an enormous, steaming pile of fail.

I don't dispute that there are bad players in WoW...a lot of them. What I dispute is that FFXI was any different.

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3) The frequent obsoletion of endgame content. Through Vanilla and BC, endgame content still remained valid when new content is introduced. You needed to do Tier 1 raids to get geared for T2, T2 raids to get geared for T3. In BC you needed to do T4 to get geared for T5 to get geared for T6... you couldn't hit 70 and be in Sunwell (and expect to not get your *** handed to you) a week later (unless your guild just force fed you gear from T4/5 raids, and even then that was still iffy).


I kind of get tired of reading this particular brand of criticism. All of the content from vanilla raids right the way up through TBC and into ICC is still in the game with the one sole exception being Onyxia, which has just been retuned for level 80. You claim obsolescence because the gear is no longer comparable in Vanilla/TBC raids to what people are earning in WotLK content. You can't complain that WoW's raid content is obsolete because it's now easily done with undermanned groups or facerolled with full raids for ***** and giggles. Because if that was your complaint...that endgame content becomes obsolete with character progression, you'd have to say the same thing about FFXI and it would take me all of a couple of minutes on youtube to find 2 minute Kirin fights to prove it to you. So all that leaves is the gear, and really...who cares? I know a LOT of people that run vanilla and TBC raids on a very regular basis. They do it for achievements or rep or just for fun. They don't care that the gear isn't going to help them in ICC.

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The post-WotLK endgame crowd is so drunk on free purples that the community has largely devolved into a bunch of button-mashing, achievement-linking, skill-less retards. You haven't seen sad until you've seen Gluth in ENRAGE MODE and a bunch of people with GS of 5k+ who can't grasp the concept of kiting and killing adds. They won't die because their gear is so overwhelming to the encounter, but they can't kill it because they won't freaking pay attention so you'll be there all night watching his HP go from full to low to full to low to full to low... It's absurd how retarded some people can get and make EASY content hard.


Not sure what that has to do with anything. Again, you talk like WoW was the only game where people could bungle a fight. I still to this day remember the LS Kirin attempt that had them botch the fight so badly that 1/3 of the people in the alliance deleveled before Kirin eventually despawned.

If you preferred FFXI over WoW for any/every reason, that's fine. If you prefer a group scenario to solo, that's fine too. Just please stop with the tired old brainwashed dillusions about the benefits of forced grouping or that the FFXI community as a whole was any less prone to rampant badism than any other game.
#66 Mar 21 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually I have to disagree. I think people who were bad at FFXI got weeded out easier and went on to other things. It wasn't a game that appealed to the wide demographic, it took a certain masochism to stick with it. :P

I put years into both, and there are definitely more people who are below expectation in parties in WoW. I think one of the main reasons isn't just that people are in capable, but they take it much more casually, as is the attitude of the game.

I also have to disagree with all the people who said one or the other was too easy. Both have things that are easy. Low content raiding in WoW is not super hard, but even that isn't just blindingly simple. Even ICC10 takes quite a bit of reaction and doing different stuff.

FFXI was hard in its own way, it's not the twitch reaction speed hard like WoW, but it took strategy and teamwork. While in WoW if you aren't standing the right place at the right time or doing the thing your team needs, you'll probably know it right away when the big fiery thing smites your raid, whereas FFXI took more of a consistent teamwork to maximize output over the long run, keep people alive and fighting and healers/mages in the black with mana (TP rotations? Ugh) and you probably wouldn't know for sure if you were doing it right until you win, or are worn down and drop dead.

Now, between the two, there are things I like very, very much about FFXI. The combat pacing was not one of them, but that's my personal preference. I *like* the faster pace of WoW. Its more intense, more involved. It feels like a battle, not a chess game. I like that.

Edit: Oh also I should add something I liked about FFXI combat better. I liked how the bosses felt like real creature encounters. Things they would use made sense. In WoW what used to be labeled 'gimmick' fights have become the standard. They realize that these make things more difficult, but I feel they do it somewhat sloppy. It loses immersion when bosses have all these extra mechanics to make them tougher that are really arbitrary and make it feel more like solving a puzzle than fighting a villain.

A good comparison for those who are familiar with WoW but maybe not FFXI as much is the faction champion fights. Its one of my favorite fights because the enemies use abilities they really would use. Its difficult without having arbitrary extra mechanics glued on to make people jump through hoops. Its much more like a FFXI fight. (CoP mammets anyone?) Yes it means some fights were quite straightforward, but it was neat that fights could be both difficult and simple at the same time.

Also, I liked that in FFXI, bosses weren't arbitrarily immune to debuffs, in fact, they were balanced around you being able to slow/stun/sleep etc them. I think that added a neat dimension and allowed them to count in debuffing in balancing classes, not just dps, but the other Evil Things people could do.

Edited, Mar 21st 2010 2:39pm by digitalcraft
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#67 Mar 21 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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346 posts
Digitalcraft,
I just wanted to say your response was balanced and well thought out without a hint of malice. Thank you, we need more responses like this. Keep it up.
#68 Mar 21 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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20,814 posts
LordFaramir wrote:
This seems quite subjective no? If this is true then there is little point debating over how high the ceiling is.

Subjective yes, but I still believe there are reasonable degrees of competency to consider.

LordFaramir wrote:
But you mention key ability rotation.

This was more a comment about other MMORPGs, where melee classes have a selection of frequently used active abilities instead of simply auto-attacking. In WoW for example many of the DPS classes have a standard rotation of abilities based on their build that essentially serves as their auto-attack.
LordFaramir wrote:
I'm not sure what the original point of contention was (did you say FFXI doesn't require much skill? iunno) but I can assure you from several years of playing that it does indeed. Moreso than other MMO's? I'm not sure - I never got into the very upper levels of most others but FFXI is definitely up there, I know that much.

You are correct about the original point of contention. I found FFXI to be a very easy game to play as primarily a brd/whm. The hardest thing I remember doing in the game was pugging steamed sprouts BCNM40 for cash, and most of the difficulty was in preparing a group of first timers for a very different type of fight then they were used to than anything actually in the encounter.
LordFaramir wrote:
Also how was it possible you both pulled and main-healed in a party with 4 DD's, tank and you? I remember partying back then involved far more downtime than it does now [sm](which is none in any half-decent party, thanks to far more MP options and just overall better classes/higher-skilled players). If you're doing all those three activities simultaneously I don't see how it's possible to avoid incredibly large moments of downtime when you've run out of MP.

This could be done several ways depending on the party setup. I will say that I didn't do too many 4 DD groups with pl/war tanks, because they tended to work better with nin/wars who could minimalize the need for healing. But when I did have PLD/wars we used a variety of methods to help minimizee down time. First, we constantly used juice to increase mp regen. Second, in this setup the pld tends to heal himself more than usual and focus more on damage reduction; I played with a few pld/wars who tanked with earth staves and rested for mp between fights, forgetting about tp pretty much entirely. Third, at this time blm/whm were still fairly popular and top tier DD, so there was usually one in every group; the blm could play backup healer and take over while I was off pulling or needed to rest. Fourth, there was usually at least one DD in the party with /nin; either a war/nin or a rng/nin. They could alternate aggro with the pld and take a few hits with shadows to help minimize the damage that required healing. Fifth, if we had a BLM I'd occasionally double pull mobs back to the group, horde lullaby the two of them, and let the BLM astral seal + sleep one of them. Once the group was done fighting the current mob they switch to my lullabied target, and fight it next, but since I had already completed pulling the mob after that (which was slept right beside us) I didn't need to be running around hunting for the next grab, so I could sit and recover mp instead.

The highest exp/hour parties I had outside of manaburns and bones were 4 DD parties.
#69 Mar 21 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
The thing I didn't like about WoW was the disparity in difficulty vs commitment. Now I played FFXI for over 6 years before going to WoW, so I'll admit that in my mind, everything I ever did in WoW was compared to FFXI since it was my first MMORPG. Probably not fair, but there it is. Here were my observations and feelings; YMMV, and that's fine.

1) It was WAY too easy to get to the level cap BECAUSE you could solo nearly the whole way. Unlike FFXI, you weren't -forced- to group at any point before 80. Some look at this as "Well it's easy because you don't spend all that time LFP". I look at it as "Because you're not forced to group, you're not forced to learn your role in a group, or how to play efficiently with other players."


That's not an uncommon argument. Unfortunately, sooner or later you still have to learn your role in a group. Whether you start learning it at level 10 or level 80 is largely irrelevant. How many hundreds of hours would the average FFXI player spend in groups while leveling from around level 10-12 up to 75? Do you really think there's anything so complex about your average xp party setup that requires anywhere near that amount of time to learn? Not really. Someone who is serious about making a contribution to a team will learn their role in a group regardless of when they start grouping. Someone who is indifferent to their performance for whatever reason won't. It's a question of attitude, not a question of when you're forced to start learning.


There's the flaw in your counter argument. You insist that you are eventually forced to. To say "it's a question of when you're forced to" or "Whether you learn it at 10 or 80 is irrelevant" implies that everyone at 80 suddenly becomes interested and able in learning how to play in a group. In my experiences, this has been far fro the truth. I have encountered good and bad players in both games, but I just say that I have encountered a far higher percentage of level capped players who could not and would not show any willingness or inclination to improve. I saw far less of this at 75 in FFXI because most of the people of that mindset got fed up and quit long before they ever hit 75.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
"Forced grouping teaches players how to be better at the game," is a tired old crock of sh*t. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny...it never did. It never will. People will learn because they want to learn whether they're in a group or solo.


The first part is not what I said; Forced grouping does not teach players how to be better, forced grouping makes players who will not get better to quit the game. I repeat, forcing people into a group DOES NOT inherently make someone better, BUT when you ARE FORCED to group with people to level, people become far less tolerant of other people who suck, and if you're one of those people, you tend to get booted from groups. Often. This presents a bad player with two options: get better or quit the game. And I'm fine with either.

I repeat a THIRD TIME: No part of grouping will inherently make you better if you don't want to get better or you are unable to get better. Grouping just forces you to decide, "Do I want to get better or do I want to go play something else?" And if the game weeds out all the bad players by forcing this decision on them starting as soon as possible, by the time you get to the cap, you end up with a significantly smaller percentage of bad players. Sure, a few will slip through the cracks, and yes, you'll have a lot less total players, but the harder the game makes it for you to be bad and still be successful, the more likely bad players will be to get fed up and quit. And to me, that's a good thing.

You say "People will learn because they want to learn whether they're in a group or solo", but I counter by saying that, point blank, there are players who just really don't give a **** to learn. I had a guy I knew who would level a class to 80, play it for about a month before no one would invite him to raids any ore because he didn't know his class, had a horrible spec, had ****** gear, and was a miracle worker when it came to finding new and innovative ways to wipe a raid. After no one would invite him to groups any more, he didn't take this as incentive to get better, he just made a new character and repeated the process. The guy was level 80 on every class and couldn't play any of them even remotely well. Some people just have no drive or incentive to get better at all, and this guy was not the only example I could cite (although he was certainly the pinnacle of retarditude, to his credit).

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Quote:
2) The difficulty disparity in "hard modes" is obvious and intended, and it seemed like the bulk of PUGs could not handle anything that had even a modicum of difficulty to it. I can't count the number of times I wiped to Hodir (enrage timer with him still at 2-3m left), until I went with a different group and not only cleared it in about 6 mins, but got all the achieves for it in one shot (except speed kill). This goes back to #1; it's so easy to get to level cap with no skill required until you hit raid content that most of the players are unskilled and sometimes downright retarded.


You speak as though every group you ever joined in FFXI at end-game was fully competent and capable of PUGing every endgame encounter. I know for a fact that they weren't when I played. Promyvion-Dem taught me that. Oh, did it ever teach me that. Accepting an invite to a group hosted by one of the top endgame shells on Siren thinking that finally...oh, finally...I'd have a chance to clear it after a handful of failed attempts previously because hey, these guys do endgame. They must know their stuff.

Nope. Bunch of incompetents, the lot of them. "Zerg until you win or you die and we'll raise you when your corpses flop out of the battlefield." Which they did. Many times. Not a single group out of the three full groups we brought that day made it through. They leveraged their cumulative skill as an end-game group and produced an enormous, steaming pile of fail.

I don't dispute that there are bad players in WoW...a lot of them. What I dispute is that FFXI was any different.


That's a glowing exception to the norm. I won't claim that every single player in endgame content in FFXI was perfect, but I've ran into levels of apathy and ignorance that I could not have even begun to imagine prior to my time on WoW. Sure, there are outright morons in any online game you play, but the people who are just that **** stupid that you ponder how they can even remember to breathe usually only hit the 50-60 range tops before people stopped inviting them to groups. They usually aren't patient enough to solo in a game as slow as FFXI and just end up constantly complaining that no one will group with them until they get sick of it and quit. In WoW, the fact that they're so stupid that no one would willingly party with them is irrelevant because if they can't get groups they can just level solo. We agree that there are bad players in both games, I'm just saying that FFXI weeded out more bad players than WoW did with all the artificial difficulty it was ridden with. Not all of them, just more of them.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
    You claim obsolescence because the gear is no longer comparable in Vanilla/TBC raids to what people are earning in WotLK content.
You can't complain that WoW's raid content is obsolete because it's now easily done with undermanned groups or facerolled with full raids for sh*ts and giggles. Because if that was your complaint...that endgame content becomes obsolete with character progression, you'd have to say the same thing about FFXI and it would take me all of a couple of minutes on youtube to find 2 minute Kirin fights to prove it to you.
    So all that leaves is the gear, and really...who cares?
I know a LOT of people that run vanilla and TBC raids on a very regular basis. They do it for achievements or rep or just for fun. They don't care that the gear isn't going to help them in ICC.


Yes, I claim it's obsolete because the gear is not comparable. Who cares? I care. That's why I said that all but two raids in the game are obsolete. They are. Sure, you can run them for ***** and giggles and achievements. You can get 5 80s and run BRD for ***** and giggles and achievements too; it doesn't make it "Viable endgame content". Yes, there are people who can burn Kirin but it doesn't change the fact that there are still people hitting 75 for the first time or on alts who will still benefit from gear from sky, sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar... In WoW's raid scene, the only non-obsolete raids are ToC/ToGC and IC. That's it. Everything else is obsolete because heroics provide you with badges that lead to better gear. Mind you that with the level cap in FFXI raising to 99, that may pretty much invalidate FFXI's current endgame content, but they're doing it after 8 years, as opposed to Blizzard doing it every 6 months.

I said that my time in FFXI lead to me comparing much of my WoW experience to what I knew from FFXI and some instances of that may not be fair, but in FFXI, I always felt that certain pieces of gear were givens. When you get certain pieces, you always told yourself "I have this. I will not need to replace it." With WoW, gear never really held any sort of significance for me, and it was one of the biggest turn offs the game left me with, and a large part of why I quit. Every piece of gear I ever got came with "This will only last me until I get X, which will only last me until I get Y, which will only last me until..." There was this constant obsoletion not just of content, but of gear. It started slowly seeping in around the end of BC, but LK blew it up and left me with a constant feeling of knowing that nothing was ever permanent. Personally, I would rather do Kara over ToCr any day. It would be nice if it was actually at least SOMEWHAT challenging and gave gear that I could actually equip and use with valid stats for my level.

So to repeat myself on this point, or rather, to clarify: Because the gear from all but the current expansion, and then only two raid areas in the entirety of that expansion, are worth equipping at all as of the current level cap, all other raids are obsolete as far as being viable endgame gear sources.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Not sure what that has to do with anything. Again, you talk like WoW was the only game where people could bungle a fight. I still to this day remember the LS Kirin attempt that had them botch the fight so badly that 1/3 of the people in the alliance deleveled before Kirin eventually despawned.


The point, apparently missed, was that WoW just feeds you gear so quickly that people have quickly equated shineys to e-peen, as if to believe that just because one's gear score is a certain number, or just because they are putting out a certain amount of DPS, it therefore instantly makes them a good player. Now you and I can say that gear score != skill and that high DPS != skill and I'm pretty sure that anyone with half a brain would agree with this. The problem is, there are far too many people (Scroll up to earlier in my post) who do not get this. I can't count the number of times I've seen blithering idiots standing in bone storm or getting smacked by the wrong color orbs or getting impaled by Gormok who, when confronted with their blatant moronitute, blast back by posting recount or linking an achievement or their gear score, as if this somehow makes them exempt from being required to pay attention.

Did FFXI have people who somehow felt that way? Sure it did. We had a guy in my Dyna and Salvage LSes (same guy) who thought it was funny, because he had Amanomurakumo, to just run up to things and Kaiten them in the face at the start of the fight when the tank was on a totally different mob (sometimes nowhere near the group at all), die, then blame the healer for not keeping them alive and spam "RAISE PLZ" "RAISE PLZ" "RAISE PLZ" "RAISE PLZ" WHILE we were fighting, until he got it. So yeah, FFXI had its share of ********* too, but between the achievement system and gear score, plus higher ilvl items being handed out like candy to anyone who can do a heroic (read: Stay awake for 10-15 minutes), the bulk of WoW's current playerbase perpetuates the thought process that button mashing with high ilvl gear they got from badges resulting in reasonable DPS is all that is required to be successful, and heaven help you if/when you tell these people they're terribad.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
If you preferred FFXI over WoW for any/every reason, that's fine. If you prefer a group scenario to solo, that's fine too. Just please stop with the tired old brainwashed dillusions about the benefits of forced grouping or that the FFXI community as a whole was any less prone to rampant badism than any other game.



So to bring this all together: there is NO NEED to learn skill when you aren't forced to, or when the second best gear in the game is aquireable from facerollable content (heroics), replaceable only by current tier raid gear. When being forced to group, there is not a need to learn skill, nor does grouping inherently impress this skill upon you, it just forces you to decide between choosing to develop this skill or face boot after boot until you quit the game. And any content that doesn't provide tangible gear or similar character advancement rewards that are worth getting is obsolete. Yes, it's still there to do if you want to, but it's still obsolete. You know what's "Still there to do if you want to in FFXI"? Eco-warrior. Doesn't not make it obsolete though.

I have no delusions about forced grouping; although I can see how your rewording of what I said to make it easier for you to argue against might make it seem that way. If I meant what you reworded my argument to, I would agree with you. You seem, conversely to be under the delusion that every player enters a game wanting to be the best player they can be; that they will care about the overall performance of their group, and that when an unskilled player who has never had a reason to improve himself realizes how badly he's holding his group back, he will immediately see the error of his ways and do his best to better himself.

I counter by saying that there are players who do well, players who try to get better, and players who don't care. And the easier you make it to get into current tier endgame content, the more of the third you will have. Ability to solo to 80, no pre-current tier raids are required (only 5 man content), all of this leads to a massive amount of bad player because at no point in this progress until they actually hit the current tier of endgame do they actually NEED to improve themselves under fear of penalty (unless you count a minor repair bill and a short walk back to your corpse).

Any barriers that slow leveling and penalize poor playing do not inherently make players better directly. They are minor inconveniences for good players, they are hurdles that players who want to improve must overcome, and they are insurmountable obstacles that players with no desire to improve, thus forcing them to quit the game before ever seeing endgame.

As someone who has put in my time in FFXI, I'd love to see 14 be a little less heavy handed, but at the same time, I really would be fine if it was hard. You know what? Make it harder. Every time you're booted from a group for being bad, announce it SERVER WIDE the name of the character and what you did. Make it so that not only can you get booted from a party for being bad, you get logged off from the game for an hour whenever you cause a wipe because you were stupid. Punish people MORE for stupid mistakes and the result will be just as I said: Either they'll make less of them or they'll quit.

You know why you don't see as many idiots working as electricians as you do working at McDonalds? Because if John screws up at McDonalds and gives a customer the wrong burger, he can grab a new burger, his problem is fixed, and John has no incentive to ever improve his order accuracy (beyond personal initiative). He can keep pressing "McChicken" instead of "McDouble" and fixing it later. He might get fired eventually, and then he can go work at Burger King and ***** up there instead.

If John screws up wiring a house, he becomes Shish-ke-John and must decide between either paying more attention in the future or finding a new job (Perhaps at McDonalds?). Does getting zapped by 110v inherently make you a better electrician? No, of course not. But get zapped enough times and you either get better or you quit. Doesn't help when customers start calling other electricians because you always leave their homes smelling like charred flesh and need them to call 911 for you whenever you visit either. Are there stupid Electricians regardless? Sure. But there are far less of them.

So to repeat myself one last time in summary: Forced grouping doesn't make you better, it makes you decide between making yourself better or quitting. All MMORPGs have bad players; MMORPGs with forced grouping just have less of them at higher levels.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#70 Mar 21 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia wrote:
There's the flaw in your counter argument. You insist that you are eventually forced to. To say "it's a question of when you're forced to" or "Whether you learn it at 10 or 80 is irrelevant" implies that everyone at 80 suddenly becomes interested and able in learning how to play in a group. In my experiences, this has been far fro the truth. I have encountered good and bad players in both games, but I just say that I have encountered a far higher percentage of level capped players who could not and would not show any willingness or inclination to improve. I saw far less of this at 75 in FFXI because most of the people of that mindset got fed up and quit long before they ever hit 75.


I'd prefer that FFXIV not be the kind of game where a state of common mediocrity leaves players so frustrated that they feel compelled to quit. And again, from my perspective, I'm not arguing ho-hum xp/merit parties. I'm talking about performance in content that the community as a whole deemed as "hard". And the easiest example I have to offer to illustrate my point is CoP. As soon as the community as a whole was required to break out of the "zerg until it's dead or you are" mentality, they went to pieces.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
The first part is not what I said; Forced grouping does not teach players how to be better, forced grouping makes players who will not get better to quit the game. I repeat, forcing people into a group DOES NOT inherently make someone better, BUT when you ARE FORCED to group with people to level, people become far less tolerant of other people who suck, and if you're one of those people, you tend to get booted from groups. Often. This presents a bad player with two options: get better or quit the game. And I'm fine with either.


Shame people out of the game. Can't say I support that idea.

Quote:
You say "People will learn because they want to learn whether they're in a group or solo", but I counter by saying that, point blank, there are players who just really don't give a sh*t to learn. I had a guy I knew who would level a class to 80, play it for about a month before no one would invite him to raids any ore because he didn't know his class, had a horrible spec, had sh*tty gear, and was a miracle worker when it came to finding new and innovative ways to wipe a raid. After no one would invite him to groups any more, he didn't take this as incentive to get better, he just made a new character and repeated the process. The guy was level 80 on every class and couldn't play any of them even remotely well. Some people just have no drive or incentive to get better at all, and this guy was not the only example I could cite (although he was certainly the pinnacle of retarditude, to his credit).


Some of the nicest people I ever met in WoW were also some of the worst players I ever came across. To say that the game should force them out is a bit much.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
That's a glowing exception to the norm. I won't claim that every single player in endgame content in FFXI was perfect, but I've ran into levels of apathy and ignorance that I could not have even begun to imagine prior to my time on WoW. Sure, there are outright morons in any online game you play, but the people who are just that **** stupid that you ponder how they can even remember to breathe usually only hit the 50-60 range tops before people stopped inviting them to groups. They usually aren't patient enough to solo in a game as slow as FFXI and just end up constantly complaining that no one will group with them until they get sick of it and quit. In WoW, the fact that they're so stupid that no one would willingly party with them is irrelevant because if they can't get groups they can just level solo. We agree that there are bad players in both games, I'm just saying that FFXI weeded out more bad players than WoW did with all the artificial difficulty it was ridden with. Not all of them, just more of them.


MMOs aren't about breeding the elite by weeding out the bads. And if history is any indication, needlessly shrinking your subscriber base by providing for only a niche market is a bad idea.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Yes, I claim it's obsolete because the gear is not comparable. Who cares? I care. That's why I said that all but two raids in the game are obsolete. They are. Sure, you can run them for sh*ts and giggles and achievements. You can get 5 80s and run BRD for sh*ts and giggles and achievements too; it doesn't make it "Viable endgame content". Yes, there are people who can burn Kirin but it doesn't change the fact that there are still people hitting 75 for the first time or on alts who will still benefit from gear from sky, sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Nyzul, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar... In WoW's raid scene, the only non-obsolete raids are ToC/ToGC and IC. That's it. Everything else is obsolete because heroics provide you with badges that lead to better gear. Mind you that with the level cap in FFXI raising to 99, that may pretty much invalidate FFXI's current endgame content, but they're doing it after 8 years, as opposed to Blizzard doing it every 6 months.


Not everyone plays for gear.

Quote:
I said that my time in FFXI lead to me comparing much of my WoW experience to what I knew from FFXI and some instances of that may not be fair, but in FFXI, I always felt that certain pieces of gear were givens. When you get certain pieces, you always told yourself "I have this. I will not need to replace it."


So what does that leave you with? If playing for gear is so important to you, don't you find it a little anti-climatic when you suddenly find yourself with gear you'll never have to replace? You can't have both. You can't claim that gear obsolescence renders content obsolete and then herald the virtues of gaining gear you're never going to replace. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Quote:
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Not sure what that has to do with anything. Again, you talk like WoW was the only game where people could bungle a fight. I still to this day remember the LS Kirin attempt that had them botch the fight so badly that 1/3 of the people in the alliance deleveled before Kirin eventually despawned.


The point, apparently missed, was that WoW just feeds you gear so quickly that people have quickly equated shineys to e-peen, as if to believe that just because one's gear score is a certain number, or just because they are putting out a certain amount of DPS, it therefore instantly makes them a good player. Now you and I can say that gear score != skill and that high DPS != skill and I'm pretty sure that anyone with half a brain would agree with this. The problem is, there are far too many people (Scroll up to earlier in my post) who do not get this. I can't count the number of times I've seen blithering idiots standing in bone storm or getting smacked by the wrong color orbs or getting impaled by Gormok who, when confronted with their blatant moronitute, blast back by posting recount or linking an achievement or their gear score, as if this somehow makes them exempt from being required to pay attention.


The whole gearscore fiasco never bothered me...typically because mine was higher than that of the people being dorks about it. And even when I was taking alts through heroics, I knew what the recommended minimums were for a fresh-to-80 character and didn't give a rat's *** about what anyone else had to say. I was one of the first people on my original server running heroics at the beginning of WotLK and I remembered what people were wanting to see in terms of tank health and dps output. I wasn't there to live up to the unreasonable standards of other people. I already knew what I needed to be doing in order to justify my spot in the group and if anyone took issue with it, that was their problem. It seems to me like you spend altogether too much time worrying about what other people are or aren't doing.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
I have no delusions about forced grouping; although I can see how your rewording of what I said to make it easier for you to argue against might make it seem that way. If I meant what you reworded my argument to, I would agree with you. You seem, conversely to be under the delusion that every player enters a game wanting to be the best player they can be; that they will care about the overall performance of their group, and that when an unskilled player who has never had a reason to improve himself realizes how badly he's holding his group back, he will immediately see the error of his ways and do his best to better himself.


No, I know they don't all enter the game wanting to make a contribution. The difference is, I see no need to break the game in an attempt to weed out the nice but inept folks along with the socially inept retards just for the sake of preserving my own e-peen.
#71 Mar 22 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
I'd prefer that FFXIV not be the kind of game where a state of common mediocrity leaves players so frustrated that they feel compelled to quit. And again, from my perspective, I'm not arguing ho-hum xp/merit parties. I'm talking about performance in content that the community as a whole deemed as "hard". And the easiest example I have to offer to illustrate my point is CoP. As soon as the community as a whole was required to break out of the "zerg until it's dead or you are" mentality, they went to pieces.


"Zerg until it's dead or you are" is a dumb strategy in general, if that's all your strategy is comprised of. If people can't come up with a valid strategy to overcome an obstacle, they deserve to fail. A game should not yield to someone SOLELY because they're getting frustrated that they can't beat it. If a group is trying a strategy that isn't working, the CORRECT answer is to re-evaluate your situation and try a NEW strategy.

Put a monkey in a cage with two buttons, one of which sprays them with a hose and the other provides them with a banana. After a few attempts, the monkey will learn not to press the hose button. It seems like, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, you're suggesting that if a player wants to just mash their face on the hose button all day, after an hour or two, the test proctor should just give them the banana as a reward for their effort and call it a day.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Shame people out of the game. Can't say I support that idea.


I think we're still not communicating. There's no issue of shame in my proposed situation. "Shame" implies that someone is trying, but just can't get it. I have always had all the patience and support in the world for a player who is bad but WANTS to get better. I can't count the number of people in either game (far more in WoW than in FFXI) who I've talked to that "Didn't get it" but WANTED to get better. To cite WoW examples; I've had DKs ask me class questions when the extent of my knowledge with the class is playing my fiancee's 80 DK (which was wearing 75% blues and 25% purples and I was still outperforming them). I've had a guy who was an 80 lock for over two months who couldn't break 2.5k DPS as destro and with my suggestions and help, I got him over 4k in a day with telling him how to respec and what rotation to use. People like this, no, they shouldn't be "shamed out of the game" because they WANT to improve.

Conversely, I've seen 80s who have well under 1k DPS. You have too, admit it. I saw an 80 Rogue doing 700 who insisted that, quote: "Rogue isn't a DPS class so stfu". I've seen a DK who was 71 points into Blood because, quote: "I'm not wasting points on other trees". I've seen BM Hunter who chose to spec BM because, quote: "My pet's DPS makes up for mine when I AFK". I've seen masses of people queue for dungeons as tank or healer and then tell the group they can't tank/heal, they "just queue as that because it takes too long to get a group".

These people? Yes, shame them out of the game. Don't just "shame them out", but have the game uninstall itself with an unmutable .wav file laughing at them the whole time.

People who have a desire to improve should be supported by those around them. People who lack this desire deserve to get thrown to the wolves. My opinion on this matter applies not only to MMORPGs, but to real life as well. People who know they are operating below a level that they should be capable of and who have no desire to ever improve themselves are a waste of oxygen.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Some of the nicest people I ever met in WoW were also some of the worst players I ever came across. To say that the game should force them out is a bit much.


Back to my previous statement. If they sucked, did they TRY to get better? If they wanted to get better, then you should help them until they do. If they had no interest in improving themselves, they're wasting $15 a month. Yes, the game should force out a bad player who refuses to improve.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
MMOs aren't about breeding the elite by weeding out the bads. And if history is any indication, needlessly shrinking your subscriber base by providing for only a niche market is a bad idea.


I'd rather play a game with a smaller subscriber base made up primarily of players who are at least halfway decent at the game than play a game with a player base made up of so much fail that a good player is the exception rather than the norm. I don't have fun playing a game where groups have to constantly carry people who will never get any better. Again, for repetition: This does not imply to bad players actively attempting to improve themselves, this applies only to bad players who have willfully decided that they -do not want- to improve. Bad players who are complacent with being bad are players I don't enjoy playing with. Yes, a game should force these players out if they are comfortable with their lack of ability and have no desire to improve upon it.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Not everyone plays for gear.


I said the content was obsolete. You said it wasn't and said (regarding the fact that gear from all but two raids is not worth doing the raid for) "Who cares?" I answered your question with "I care" because I do.

I play games for two reasons: To enjoy the content and to improve my character. I don't feel that combining the two is too much to ask, but Wrath of the Lich King disagrees with me. I want to, ideally, be able to pick which raid(s) I want to do, and I feel I should be able to get viable gear options regardless of which one I pick.

Let's list 10 gear options from FFXI: Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul, Assault, HNM, ZNM. These are 10 places I can get gear from, and all of them have gear options that are valid, worth getting, and worth equipping. I can experience a variety of content and it is still worth my time and effort to do so.

Let's double that and list 20 raids in WoW. Double. Icecrown Citadel, Trial of the Crusader, Onyxia's Lair, Vault of Archavon, Ulduar, Eye of Eternity, Obsidian Sanctum, Naxxramas, Gruul, Magtheridon, Black Temple, Sunwell, Zul'Aman, Serpentshrine Cavern, Mount Hyjal, Karazahn, Ahn'Qiraj, Molten Core, Zul'Gurub, Blackwing Lair.

Out of these 20 raids that Blizzard devs have spent their time and energy designing and tweaking, a player who hits 80 today will never have the opportunity to fully appreciate more than half of them. Gear from 75% of them is not worth equipping. So the only reason to ever do most of the raids in the game is "for the **** of it" or "for the achievement".

To me, enjoying content in a game entails experiencing the content, beating the content, and being rewarded for beating the content. Yes, to me, that means gear. Kill something, it drops gear, and hopefully some deserving player (whether me or not me is irrelevant) gets the gear and is happy.

A handful of level 80s fighting their way through mobs 10-20 levels below them, for gear that is leagues worse than what they already have? That's not even remotely what I'd consider rewarding.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
So what does that leave you with? If playing for gear is so important to you, don't you find it a little anti-climatic when you suddenly find yourself with gear you'll never have to replace? You can't have both. You can't claim that gear obsolescence renders content obsolete and then herald the virtues of gaining gear you're never going to replace. Six of one, half dozen of the other.


Sure I can. It's possible to introduce new gear without rendering old gear or content obsolete. FFXI has done a good job of it. The three latest addons reward you with gear that is worth getting and using, but gear from sky and Dynamis (over 5 years old) is ALSO worth using. Playing for gear and content is important to me. I feel I should be able to enjoy content REGARDLESS of how old it is and I feel that ANY endgame content should provide gear that is worth using. I don't find permanently securing a piece of gear that I know I won't be replacing to be anti-climatic at all; I feel a sense of joy and achievement from it. I get my sense of achievement in a game from beating content and receiving tangible gear rewards that are worthwhile, not from some tacked on system telling me I achieved something.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
The whole gearscore fiasco never bothered me...typically because mine was higher than that of the people being dorks about it. And even when I was taking alts through heroics, I knew what the recommended minimums were for a fresh-to-80 character and didn't give a rat's *** about what anyone else had to say. I was one of the first people on my original server running heroics at the beginning of WotLK and I remembered what people were wanting to see in terms of tank health and dps output. I wasn't there to live up to the unreasonable standards of other people. I already knew what I needed to be doing in order to justify my spot in the group and if anyone took issue with it, that was their problem. It seems to me like you spend altogether too much time worrying about what other people are or aren't doing.


In my experience, people who overemphasized gear score were people who used their own to attempt to justify their own poor performance with it. So on one hand, I never personally cared about it, but at the same time, I'd be pretty fine if these people who felt that 1.5k DPS was acceptable because "I have a 5.5k gear score" were forced out of the game months sooner and never hit 80 in the first place.

I'm like you said; I knew I was capable of the content I was doing and I knew I was performing at an acceptable level. I just got sick of listening to people who didn't know what they were doing using their own gear score to vehemently defend themselves, as if a high gear score makes them a good player. I just saw poor players rewarded with good gear because there was nothing in the game to stop a poor player from getting good gear. And the result was that the poor players use "I have good gear" as an argument, as if the good gear they didn't deserve in the first place inherently makes them a good player.

I know this may seem contradictory to my previous point, but good gear does not a good player make, I'm sure we can agree on that, yes? It is my opinion that the bad players should be weeded out early and often, so that the good gear goes to more of the good players.

AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
No, I know they don't all enter the game wanting to make a contribution. The difference is, I see no need to break the game in an attempt to weed out the nice but inept folks along with the socially inept retards just for the sake of preserving my own e-peen.


Has nothing to do with "my e-peen". I think the inept -do- need to be weeded out because for my $15, I want to play a game where I can enjoy content with other skilled players and be rewarded. An inept player's $15 should not give them the ability to ruin 4/9/24 other people's night because they're not going to get any better.

Real Life already has these barriers in place. You want to make the big bucks, you need to work at it. People spend 4/6/8 years in college and/or graduate school so that they can go on to be "skilled workers" like Lawyers, Scientists, Teachers, Doctors. Sure, a few slip through the cracks here and there, but imagine how many more idiots you'd have in skilled employment if there were no more requirements to be a Neurosurgeon than there are to flip burgers.

I say put those barriers in place. Give everyone an equal opportunity and force them to decide: Am I complacent wearing a blue vest and welcoming people to Walmart or do I WANT to be better and have a corner office and a cherry wood desk? Not everyone is created equal, and those with the drive to improve themselves are rewarded for it. Someone who puts the time and effort into a Ph.D will be rewarded more than someone who drops out of high school. I don't feel a game should reward everyone equally, regardless of individual effort put in.


And holy crap, our posts are getting hella long.

EDIT:

Quote:
If you preferred FFXI over WoW for any/every reason, that's fine. If you prefer a group scenario to solo, that's fine too.


That's pretty much it. In FFXI, I was playing with what I felt were mostly players who understood what they were supposed to do, I could experience a variety of content, and I got gear from all of the content that was worth keeping. In WoW, I was playing with what I felt were FAR too many people who were very obviously dragging the group down who only got to 80 because the game was easy enough to let them. I could only TRULY experience a small amount of content (Whatever Blizzard funneled everyone into) that was worth doing; any other content was largely ignored due to the lack of tangible reward.

So again, while I do feel that FFXIV should tone down the difficulty at least somewhat so as not to be so "Artificial Difficulty" ridden that FFXI was, it shouldn't bring it down anywhere near the level that WoW is to let unskilled apathetic players succeed. And endgame content and gear should not be invalidated constantly by new endgame content and gear.

Those are my hopes, anyway; you're free to disagree (and I think it's safe to assume you probably do).

We won't know what we have till Winter-ish anyway.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 2:59pm by Mikhalia
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#72 Mar 22 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think we're still not communicating.


Good luck with that one, brick walls are hard to get through to.
#73 Mar 22 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
I think we're still not communicating.


Good luck with that one, brick walls are hard to get through to.


I don't think that's necessarily an accurate statement. I think he and I understand each other for the most part, we just disagree. After his last post, I'm pretty sure I clarified my point to him to the point that he understands where I'm coming from; he just disagrees with me.

In all my time posting here, I've never known Aurelius to be "A brick wall"; he just periodically has opinions I disagree with.

If you want to see a brick wall, try someone like Reij or xbob. :)
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#74 Mar 22 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I see too many people here claiming wow is easy mode.... Ok WTF I am playing the game right now. I dont think anyone here should be able to say the game is too easy unless they can link their maxed out characters with hard mode 25 man Lichking achievement, shadow mourn and at least one 2500+ arena team. If you cant then I am not buying these easy mode comments. FFXI was hard no doubt but both games will suck the life from stone if you wanted to get to the high end. Its about the same either way!!

With all that said I hope FFXIV feels new and nothing like WoW to me. I hope for no WoW factor...


Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 3:34pm by thorazinekizzez
#75 Mar 22 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Comments about WoW being too easy are usually related to previous experiences, pre-Lich King. Maybe even pre-Burning Crusades. And they are true, and I was there. You would solo grind up to 60 in less than a week then waste your days away doing whatever it was you needed to do to get your end-game armour. Crafting was a matter of filling a bag of components, hitting a button, then going off and playing some other game. I'm sure things are different now, maybe there are some challenges now at end-game. But it's still the big grind up to that point. And it's ruined it for some of us.

And XIV definitely has a certain "wow" factor for me, but I don't think that's what you want to talk about in this thread.
#76 Mar 22 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
Comments about WoW being too easy are usually related to previous experiences, pre-Lich King. Maybe even pre-Burning Crusades. And they are true, and I was there. You would solo grind up to 60 in less than a week then waste your days away doing whatever it was you needed to do to get your end-game armour. Crafting was a matter of filling a bag of components, hitting a button, then going off and playing some other game. I'm sure things are different now, maybe there are some challenges now at end-game. But it's still the big grind up to that point. And it's ruined it for some of us.

And XIV definitely has a certain "wow" factor for me, but I don't think that's what you want to talk about in this thread.


Can we call it "Woah" factor then please? :)
I want WOAH factor.

Also saying WoW is easy mode today is like saying COP is easy mode.. yeah sure getting to 80 is a snap but 2500 arena team is rip your face off hard. And nobody has yet to down 25 man Lich King on the hardest mode yet and its been months I think. I might be wrong on that though I have yet to step foot into ICC.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 4:19pm by thorazinekizzez
#77 Mar 22 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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then waste your days away doing whatever it was you needed to do to get your end-game armour

As opposed to what you do in FFXI? At least in WoW you can good gear in under 6 months.
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#78 Mar 22 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I see too many people here claiming wow is easy mode.... Ok WTF I am playing the game right now. I dont think anyone here should be able to say the game is too easy unless they can link their maxed out characters with hard mode 25 man Lichking achievement, shadow mourn and at least one 2500+ arena team. If you cant then I am not buying these easy mode comments. FFXI was hard no doubt but both games will suck the life from stone if you wanted to get to the high end. Its about the same either way!!

With all that said I hope FFXIV feels new and nothing like WoW to me. I hope for no WoW factor...


Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 3:34pm by thorazinekizzez


I really hate repeating myself to people who clearly didn't bother to read previous posts, but I guess I'm going to do it anyway.

WoW has a huge difficulty disparity that inherently forces people towards one end of the difficulty spectrum.

It's easy at level 1, it's easy to level to 80. Little skill is required to get to the cap, and people with no skill can get to the cap without much of a problem since there are no barriers to weed out the bads until after 80. Any idiot can get to 80, and many of them can still manage to be carried through heroics and normal raid content.

Raid hardmodes are the ONLY challenging PvE part of the game, and by the time most players get there, they're so used to the fact that the rest of the game is stupidly easy that they are faced with a giant learning curve. Furthermore, since hardmode content is optional ANYWAY, they STILL aren't required to do it.

Most player in WoW will never bead hardmode content because they've been coddled for 80 levels. Are the hardmodes difficult? Yes, but they're the only part of WoW that has any real difficulty to it. The other 99% of the game -is- stupidly easy.

So yes, the 1% of the game that is hardmode current tier raid content is not easy. The other 99% of the game is. It's horribly inaccurate to refer to WoW as a hard game when such a tiny portion of the game's content is actually difficult.

For more on this point, scroll up and read the rest of my points on the topic of difficulty disparity and lack of difficulty during normal gameplay because I'm not going to tl;dr all of it for you.

EDIT: Also, you can't really call an arena rating of 2500 a representative of game difficulty. Game difficulty inherently refers to how hard the game is and how much you must work to "beat it". With any sort of PvP that isn't PvPvE, it's not your skill vs game difficulty, it's your skill vs your opponent's skill. And it stands to logic that the farther you get up a PvP ranking, the more skilled players you will see. I won't claim that it doesn't take skill to get a high arena rating, it certainly does.

But a high arena rating means that you are more skilled than other players with a lower rating, not that the game is hard. I could be the world champion of checkers, it doesn't make checkers a hard game, it just means that I'm better than anyone else at checkers. The same applies to any game, be it FPS/RTS/RPG/etc... the difficulty of the game is related in how much of the game can be "beaten" and the amount of effort it takes to do so. When you play against other people, you don't beat the game, you just beat other people.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:08pm by Mikhalia
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#79 Mar 22 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As opposed to what you do in FFXI? At least in WoW you can good gear in under 6 months.


Hey now, we're talking about WoW. ;) And any MMO basically ends up being that. You can also get good gear in XI in under 6 months, it just involves a little more luck and being in the right group at the right time.

#80 Mar 22 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
Quote:
As opposed to what you do in FFXI? At least in WoW you can good gear in under 6 months.


Hey now, we're talking about WoW. ;) And any MMO basically ends up being that. You can also get good gear in XI in under 6 months, it just involves a little more luck and being in the right group at the right time.


The massive amount of "required grouping" in FFXI results in higher time requirements to play the game. I've leveled 1-75 in FFXI in under a month and I've leveled 1-80 in WoW in under a month. Twice in each game.

WoW's "advantage" is that since you don't have to group, you can solo your way to the cap. So someone who only intends to dedicate 1-2 hours of playtime a day can still progress in WoW since they can log in, do some quests, log off. It's part of the draw and allure of the game, and is a large reason it has so many players.

In FFXI, you don't tend to accomplish much in the same amount of timeframe due to all of the game's inherent time blocks. Travel takes longer, waiting for groups takes longer, running around takes longer... Whereas 2 hours of WoW a day equates to 1:40-1:50 worth of actual playtime, 2 hours of FFXI a day usually equates to 0:30-1:15 minutes worth of actual playtime.

FFXI has gotten a lot more "casual friendly" with FoV and campaign, but even campaign battles are a lot of waiting. If you only have 1 hour a day to play on weekdays, you could still get to 80 in WoW in 2-3 months. If you're talking about FFXI, don't even bother trying to level up on a short schedule like that.

It's all about those "barriers" I was talking about. The harder you make it to get to cap, the more people will quit your game along the way. The easier you make it to get to cap, the more people will get there. Someone who had the appropriate time to dedicate to either game and knew what to do could easily get to cap in under 2 months without much problem in either game. FFXI's trip to 75 just involves navigating dimly lit back roads at night with a ton of traffic and a bunch of potholes you need to keep your eye out for, whereas WoW's trip to 80 is a 55 MPH straight shot 4 lane freeway that you have largely to yourself. Both destinations are reachable in a realistic timeframe, one just requires more time and effort than the other.
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#81 Mar 22 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Raid hardmodes are the ONLY challenging PvE part of the game, and by the time most players get there, they're so used to the fact that the rest of the game is stupidly easy that they are faced with a giant learning curve. Furthermore, since hardmode content is optional ANYWAY, they STILL aren't required to do it.


It was too easy for you huh?
Care to show your character where you finished all of that content so you can prove you know anything about what your talking about?

edit: also grinding colibri is HARD!!!

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:28pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:28pm by thorazinekizzez
#82 Mar 22 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
Quote:
But a high arena rating means that you are more skilled than other players with a lower rating, not that the game is hard. I could be the world champion of checkers, it doesn't make checkers a hard game, it just means that I'm better than anyone else at checkers. The same applies to any game, be it FPS/RTS/RPG/etc... the difficulty of the game is related in how much of the game can be "beaten" and the amount of effort it takes to do so. When you play against other people, you don't beat the game, you just beat other people.


exactly!

#83 Mar 22 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
At least in WoW you can good gear in under 6 months.


IMHO that pretty much sums up why WoW I left that game. Wasting 6 months of your life raiding day-in/day-out hoping that you can get your armor.
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#84 Mar 22 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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netglen wrote:
IMHO that pretty much sums up why WoW I left that game. Wasting 6 months of your life raiding day-in/day-out hoping that you can get your armor.

As opposed to...?
#85 Mar 22 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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11,539 posts
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Raid hardmodes are the ONLY challenging PvE part of the game, and by the time most players get there, they're so used to the fact that the rest of the game is stupidly easy that they are faced with a giant learning curve. Furthermore, since hardmode content is optional ANYWAY, they STILL aren't required to do it.


It was too easy for you huh?
Care to show your character where you finished all of that content so you can prove you know anything about what your talking about?

edit: also grinding colibri is HARD!!!

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:28pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 6:28pm by thorazinekizzez


AGAIN, because you are apparently dumb as a **** brick:

The bulk of WoW is quite easy. Only a small portion of it is actually challenging. I don't need to have repeatedly beaten the tiny portion of challenging content to state this.

And who said anything about grinding Colibri, besides you? I'm saying that, for most people, leveling a character from 1 to cap and experiencing most to all of the endgame content in FFXI requires far more work, time, and effort than leveling a character from 1 to cap and experiencing most to all of the endgame content in WoW (Which is all of two raids?). If you think Grinding Colibri was "endgame content", it probably explains why you seem to think ALL of WoW is so hard.

I really hate repeating myself, especially for an idiot named "kizzez", but I've put more effort into repeating myself to you than I ever put into successful completions of non-hardmode content in WoW. And again, "Hard content" in WoW comprises a tiny portion of the game. So yes, the rest of WoW is easy.

Now how about you try reading the rest of my posts where I already covered all this in far more detail, or is THAT "hard mode" for you?

If reading the rest of this thread is as difficult as you seem to imply it is for you to do, perhaps that would explain why you find ALL of WoW to be hard.


To the guy with the "brick wall" comment earlier: This is what I was talking about; many posters (Aurelius as an example) are intelligent people who just happen to differ in their opinions. Thor here is an example of a brick wall who just doesn't get it. In fact, he'll probably ignore or reword my point yet again in his next post since I've never known him to be able to actually respond validly; he has a pretty long history of strawmanning arguments he can't win like this one. If he sticks around (and he's a troll, so he probably will), you'll see what I mean if you haven't already.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 8:03pm by Mikhalia
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#86 Mar 22 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
netglen wrote:
IMHO that pretty much sums up why WoW I left that game. Wasting 6 months of your life raiding day-in/day-out hoping that you can get your armor.

As opposed to...?


Yeah, every MMORPG is this. FFXI is no different, except that you waste years of your life waiting for gear that never drops instead of months of your life constantly replacing gear that always drops.

If you don't want to "waste months of your life getting gear", I would advise against any MMORPGs ever.
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#87 Mar 22 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
If you only have 1 hour a day to play on weekdays, you could still get to 80 in WoW in 2-3 months. If you're talking about FFXI, don't even bother trying to level up on a short schedule like that.


I see your point although its a bit exaggerated. I leveled up my 5th job to 80 with all the knowledge of leveling previous jobs and not having to worry about gear, experience and 'wtf do I do next' that some newer players would. It took me just over 5 days of playing time. I spread that out taking just under 5 weeks to get there. Rounding it down to 5 days even it still comes out to almost 6 months at an hour on the weekdays. Leveling this way in FFXI wouldn't be an option, but more due to accessibility than how easy it is. Safe and quick travel, abundance of areas to level in and items to increase experience gain help alot.

Mikhalia wrote:
It's all about those "barriers" I was talking about. The harder you make it to get to cap, the more people will quit your game along the way. The easier you make it to get to cap, the more people will get there.


I don't think people leave games based on the challenge. Its not necessarily 'harder' to get to the cap if it takes longer. I don't think there is so much difference between the time and effort taken, but how the time is spent. FFXI can be a straight shot to 75(No sh*t I got my papy first kill) It just doesn't offer what some people are willing to do. Using the same example you made above...

While it may be impossible to get anything done in FFXI if you're restricted to 1 hour sessions, you could accomplish alot more if you were able to pool that hour a week for a 5 hour session. Exp groups for leveling, dynamis, sky and sea gods and land king windows would all fit this time setup as well making endgame events like einherjar, salvage, assaults and campaign ops possible. The fact that WoW offers instanced play that is player initiated makes it more appealing to the people who can't sacrifice being awake until 2 hours before they need to be at work for a NM spawn. Its much more appealing to be able to schedule game around life rather than the opposite. That I'm sure we can agree on. Weather or not you think this makes a game easier I guess depends on how you define difficulty.

Bottom line: Your game is not 'harder' because it takes you longer to progress(through quest, grind or travel) or because the areas you progress in are less accessable than other games. Camping a mob with a 21 hour pop window against multiple groups of players doesn't make you more hardcore than someone who goes into an instanced area for the same purpose without competetion. This is the main reason this always turns into an arguement.

Netglen wrote:
IMHO that pretty much sums up why WoW I left that game. Wasting 6 months of your life raiding day-in/day-out hoping that you can get your armor.


You're doinitwrong. Gearing up in WoW takes a matter of weeks unless you're trying to wear all hardmode gear. You can at least gear up enough to attempt hardmode content in a few months tops if you're really after it.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 8:32pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#88 Mar 22 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
If you only have 1 hour a day to play on weekdays, you could still get to 80 in WoW in 2-3 months. If you're talking about FFXI, don't even bother trying to level up on a short schedule like that.


I see your point although its a bit exaggerated. I leveled up my 5th job to 80 with all the knowledge of leveling previous jobs and not having to worry about gear, experience and 'wtf do I do next' that some newer players would. It took me just over 5 days of playing time. I spread that out taking just under 5 weeks to get there. Rounding it down to 5 days even it still comes out to almost 6 months at an hour on the weekdays. Leveling this way in FFXI wouldn't be an option, but more due to accessibility than how easy it is. Safe and quick travel, abundance of areas to level in and items to increase experience gain help alot.


Sorry, I implied something that I didn't say. My "an hour a day on weekdays" meant to imply that you would play for a few hours on Saturday and Sunday every week. If you only have an hour or two a day on weekdays but several hours a weekend, you can play WoW effectively 7 days a week and FFXI effectively two days a week.

My apology for the confusion by my omission.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
It's all about those "barriers" I was talking about. The harder you make it to get to cap, the more people will quit your game along the way. The easier you make it to get to cap, the more people will get there.


I don't think people leave games based on the challenge. Its not necessarily 'harder' to get to the cap if it takes longer. I don't think there is so much difference between the time and effort taken, but how the time is spent. FFXI can be a straight shot to 75(No sh*t I got my papy first kill) It just doesn't offer what some people are willing to do. Using the same example you made above...

While it may be impossible to get anything done in FFXI if you're restricted to 1 hour sessions, you could accomplish alot more if you were able to pool that hour a week for a 5 hour session. Exp groups, dynamis, sky and sea gods and land king windows would all fit this time setup as well making endgame possible. The fact that WoW offers instanced play that is player initiated makes it more appealing to the people who can't sacrifice being awake until 2 hours before they need to be at work for a NM spawn. Its much more appealing to be able to schedule game around life rather than the opposite. That I'm sure we can agree on. Weather or not you think this makes a game easier I guess depends on how you define difficulty.

Bottom line: Your game is not 'harder' because it takes you longer to progress(through quest, grind or travel) or because the areas you progress in are less accessable than other games. Camping a mob with a 21 hour pop window against multiple groups of players doesn't make you more hardcore than someone who goes into an instanced area for the same purpose without competetion. This is the main reason this always turns into an arguement.


This all comes down to what you specifically consider to be "hard". It goes back to what I said before about artificial difficulty. Much of the "hard" of FFXI is not direct difficulty, it's time sinks and low drop rates and time commitments. It's not that it's "hard" in the sense that it's inherently difficult to take longer to do things, it's hard in the sense that it's "not easy".

Also, going back to what I said about leveling barriers, leveling from 1 to 75 in FFXI inherently is fraught with tons of time sinks. Lots of travel, 5 limit breaks, time waiting for groups, time going to camp, time going back to town, time spent farming gil so you can buy better gear to keep leveling... all of this takes time. Comparatively, WoW's 1-80 path has far less travel time involved, no limit breaks, no time waiting for groups, no time spent where you stop leveling to farm gold to buy gear.

That's what I meant when I used the words "Artifical Difficulty" before. The game is not hard because it's "hard", the game is hard because it's "not easy", like WoW is. And yes, these challenges -do- cause people to leave the game. That's why FFXI has significantly fewer players than WoW. WoW is easier, and therefore retains a larger playerbase. FFXI is "harder", and all the time sinks and challenges and difficulties do indeed drive people away from the game.

Once you hit endgame in FFXI, there is a lot you can get done on a short schedule. If you plan your playtimes accordingly with a static, you can fit Limbus, Nyzul/Assault, Salvage, Einherjar, ZNM... just about anything but non CoP Dynamis into a 2 hour playtime. Well, and sky/sea farming, but only because the sky is the limit (pun unintended) when it comes to those things. The vast majority of WoW's endgame content can fit easily into 2 hour windows as well.

The difference between the games is that unless you have specific blocks of time to dedicate to FFXI, you'll waste -more- time in the game. Leveling takes up a major portion of the game and is itself a major timesink that becomes a barrier to playing the game. Again, not difficulty in the literal sense of the word; the actions required to level are no easier or harder than what WoW requires; target mobs, hit buttons, get xp, repeat. It's "harder" because for most people, leveling in FFXI is just a giant timesink. Leveling in WoW is a giant timesink too, but since anyone can do it, and with less downtime, it is easier for most WoW players to get to 80 than it is for most FFXI players to get to 75.

Your post seems to imply that you're only comparing the endgame content of the two games whereas all along I've been saying (over and over and over) that FFXI inherently is made up of things that impede your progress along the way TO the cap, so that LESS people get there.

If FFXI is "just as easy"/"just as hard" as WoW, then I encourage every person who plays WoW to start up a FFXI account and level their first character to 75 in approximately the same amount of time it took them to level their first character to 80 in WoW. Chances are, they can't, because they're not used to the time sinks and artificial difficulty. Most people, for whom WoW was their first MMORPG are so used to the leveling process being just short of handed to you that the impediments along the way to 75 would likely frustrate them to the point of quitting.

And that's what I've been saying since my first post in this thread. I like those impediments. They make most of the bads quit and keep them out of endgame. Not all of them, but most of them.
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#89 Mar 22 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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Original OP.

Yes, for me at least. When i saw the recent pic's, I did say WOW. Question is answered,thread can be locked...lol
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#90 Mar 22 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
I think we're still not communicating.


Good luck with that one, brick walls are hard to get through to.


I think it's cute and flattering in a disturbing way that you're so obsessed with me that you're sunk to trolling threads just to take shots. Really though, stalking is not cool, k?
#91 Mar 22 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
I think we're still not communicating.


Good luck with that one, brick walls are hard to get through to.


I think it's cute and flattering in a disturbing way that you're so obsessed with me that you're sunk to trolling threads just to take shots. Really though, stalking is not cool, k?


Wait, what? He's done this in other threads? Link please?
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#92 Mar 22 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
I think we're still not communicating.


Good luck with that one, brick walls are hard to get through to.


I think it's cute and flattering in a disturbing way that you're so obsessed with me that you're sunk to trolling threads just to take shots. Really though, stalking is not cool, k?


Wait, what? He's done this in other threads? Link please?


He so cuuuuuuuuute.
#93 Mar 22 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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I fully understood what was implied, but you said "an hour a day during weekdays". Thats direct quote, but like I said I see your point.

Mikhalia wrote:
Also, going back to what I said about leveling barriers, leveling from 1 to 75 in FFXI inherently is fraught with tons of time sinks. Lots of travel, 5 limit breaks, time waiting for groups, time going to camp, time going back to town, time spent farming gil so you can buy better gear to keep leveling... all of this takes time.


Leveling, although necessary, is a very small part of the game. People posting on these forums have been 75 for years now. Whats more important is whats going on at the end. If you compare the endgame difficulty between the two games you get a clearer picture of what 'hard' is.

Mikhalia wrote:
That's what I meant when I used the words "Artifical Difficulty" before. The game is not hard because it's "hard", the game is hard because it's "not easy", like WoW is.


I'm not certain I understand this. WoW is not hard because its hard, but FFXI is hard because its not easy? Challenge doesn't cause people to stop playing a game they enjoy. Real life does.

I really liked FFXI eventhough I don't find the endgame nearly as challenging as WoW currently. I quit not because I didn't want to play or because it was 'hard'. I quit because I have other **** to do and can't commit to the time constraints that camping NMs at awkward times of the day presents. Its not that its a time sink, because I don't mind at all sitting for hours killing mobs for great drops. I just prefer to do it on my own time. If you ask for candid reasons I'm sure alot of other people who quit will say the same.

Mikhalia wrote:
Again, not difficulty in the literal sense of the word; the actions required to level are no easier or harder than what WoW requires; target mobs, hit buttons, get xp, repeat. It's "harder" because for most people, leveling in FFXI is just a giant timesink. Leveling in WoW is a giant timesink too, but since anyone can do it, and with less downtime, it is easier for most WoW players to get to 80 than it is for most FFXI players to get to 75.


You keep saying time sink when referring to difficulty. If you enjoy playing a game than its not about how much time you spend doing it. If you played FFXI for an hour a day and you play WoW for an hour a day does it make WoW easier because you progress faster toward cap? I don't think so.

Mikhalia wrote:
Your post seems to imply that you're only comparing the endgame content of the two games whereas all along I've been saying (over and over and over) that FFXI inherently is made up of things that impede your progress along the way TO the cap, so that LESS people get there.


No, I compared both leveling and endgame. Its not very objective to compare the difficulty of a game based on only one aspect. When starting out if you wanna travel faster? Learn to ride a chocobo. You wanna travel further? Huff it all across vanadiel to quest for airship access. This isn't meant to turn gamers away. I for one liked the fact that you are meant(almost forced) to explore certain aspects of the game. If you're playing it the way it was intended to be played then its not a race to cap. Level up quickly, but don't forget to do some quests for gear that you may find useful. Go explore a zone you haven't been to yet. Meet an adventurer you may find as a powerful ally later in the game when you need help with missions. I think this is the idea SE had in mind with all the 'timesink' is that you actually progress the storyline of the game.

Mikhalia wrote:
If FFXI is "just as easy"/"just as hard" as WoW, then I encourage every person who plays WoW to start up a FFXI account and level their first character to 75 in approximately the same amount of time it took them to level their first character to 80 in WoW. Chances are, they can't, because they're not used to the time sinks and artificial difficulty.


Its not a race to cap. Even if it were you could do it just as easily in FFXI as you could in WoW. I have seen people meriting in qufim, no ******* joke. Not the most efficient way, but the xp/hr is good enough to get you to 75. I don't need any missions or quests for that. You're mistaken if you think its any different. Artificial difficulty is such a bad term. Just call it what it is. Some people prefer to burn through content without taking in all of the sights, sounds and storyline. You don't have much of a choice in FFXI if you want to progress through missions.

Mikhalia wrote:
And that's what I've been saying since my first post in this thread. I like those impediments. They make most of the bads quit and keep them out of endgame. Not all of them, but most of them.


Just because people may not have the time to invest gathering up people for missions or quests, BCNMs, camping NMs and farming.... whatever it may be. That doesn't make them bads or mean they quit because the game was too hard. You have a pretty masochistic view if you like a game that you feel is meant to chase its players off. You really think that by punishing the players with tedious tasks and dismal drop rates 'trims the fat'? Those who stay to take the beating are hardcore and those who can't hack and have other things to do are bads?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#94 Mar 22 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I get so sick of people that think 'takin an obscene amount of time' = difficuly = hardcore = better.
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WoW - Quel'dorei <ON HOLD>

Main: Tancoo (80 Tauren Enhance Shaman)
Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#95 Mar 22 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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346 posts
Quote:
I think it's cute and flattering in a disturbing way that you're so obsessed with me that you're sunk to trolling threads just to take shots. Really though, stalking is not cool, k?


I'm sorry you think I was stalking, not my intent. I just happened to read a lot of threads here, you post on a lot of threads here, and well....I said what I said I won't rehash it.
#96 Mar 22 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Default
Elmyrsun wrote:
Quote:
I think it's cute and flattering in a disturbing way that you're so obsessed with me that you're sunk to trolling threads just to take shots. Really though, stalking is not cool, k?


I'm sorry you think I was stalking, not my intent. I just happened to read a lot of threads here, you post on a lot of threads here, and well....I said what I said I won't rehash it.


How about if you're going to say something, you say it relative to the topic at hand. If you want to challenge my ideas, feel free. When you take time out to post not more than a shot at me, you're just shaming yourself.
#97 Mar 22 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
9 posts
First off, props to AureliusSir, I agree with everything you have said so far and am happy to see someone who wants a little logic and proof in their arguments.

Second, I played both FFXI and WoW and enjoyed both, but I must admit, I prefer WoW to FFXI. I will state some things I would like to see from both games:

Stuff from FFXI / Announced for FFXIV

- I love being able to have more than one job on one character. If I can progress all classes on one toon I am very happy. I hate having to make a alt to try another class out so I love FFXI's class system and think that the system in FFXIV will be even more flexible. By having only one character, players develop a reputation that both creates stronger bonds amongst players and prevents douchbaggery since a player cannot easily just make a new toon after ruining their reputation.

- All final fantasy games have a much more immersive and beautiful world than WoW in my opinion. The little mini cut-scenes before major battles are not excessively long yet add a more epic feel to the battle to come. I also find that FF games tend to draw you into the plot in much more interesting ways that most other games.

- If the creators of FFXIV keep to their word, soloing will be achievable while an EMPHASIS is put on partying. I agree with this philosophy. If you are playing an MMO partying should always be encouraged over soloing, but soloing must also be viable for those times where you do not want to or can't party for any one of many reasons (I know sometimes I would want to solo because I could not commit an uninterrupted amount of time to a party because of real life responsibilities). An MMO is a social game after all.

Stuff that WoW got right

- Frequent content updates. WoW has something new to add to the game every few months. Granted, the reason they can develop so much content is because their subscription base and financial backing is so large, but Sqeenix does not lack the resources for such updates and thus has no excuses. It seems that Squeenix tries to avoid frequent content updates by instead providing tedious and boring time consuming tasks repeated at nausiam.

- Some people argue that WoW was too easy, I do not agree at all. The difficulty was just right. Old content is made easier as new content comes out so that new players can catch up to the veteran players quickly (in equipment, not skill). Top end content is accessible to all players while they have difficulty levels available for players who want a true challenge. FFXI is very unforgiving to newer players, especially since auction prices are grossly inflated due to RMT. Not only are drops from older content still useful, but also drop so infrequently from eternally camped enemies that veteran players are still after them causing the speed at which new players catch up to be dreadfully slow. These new players are too undergeared to participate in any groups yet soloing is too tedious (and sometimes impossible depending on job) to achieve.

If I had to put the biggest drawbacks of WoW and FFXI into one sentence: WoW is too ability spammy with a weak player community while FFXI is excessively tedious and unforgiving.

If I had to put the biggest strengths of both games into one sentence, I would say: WoW caters best to players of all skill level and time commitment levels while FFXI provides a much richer player community and beautiful immersive world.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 9:40pm by raynforce
#98 Mar 22 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow raynforce, well done, well done! That was great.
____________________________
WoW - Quel'dorei <ON HOLD>

Main: Tancoo (80 Tauren Enhance Shaman)
Other: Saraah (63 BE Paladin)
Raymund (47 Troll Hunter)

FFXI - Carbuncle <RETIRED>
Raymund - 45 DRG, 42 PLD, 26 BLU, 30 RNG, 1 NIN <- I miss you Buster!
#99 Mar 22 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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4,153 posts
raynforce wrote:
If I had to put the biggest drawbacks of WoW and FFXI into one sentence: WoW is too ability spammy with a weak player community while FFXI is excessively tedious and unforgiving.

If I had to put the biggest strengths of both games into one sentence, I would say: WoW caters best to players of all skill level and time commitment levels while FFXI provides a much richer player community and beautiful immersive world.


I agree almost completely, but the community issue really falls apart for me. I find them to be relatively the same. WoW's community probably stands out more for asshattery due to its size. The percentages are probably close as to how many people are jerks and how many players are polite and helpful. Because WoW has such a large playerbase I think it just sticks out more. Bads are a zit on the face of the gaming community. Its just as annoying in FFXI or WoW, just that WoW has a bigger zit XD

Rest of the post is spot on though. Bravo!
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#100 Mar 22 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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raynforce wrote:
- Frequent content updates. WoW has something new to add to the game every few months. Granted, the reason they can develop so much content is because their subscription base and financial backing is so large, but Sqeenix does not lack the resources for such updates and thus has no excuses. It seems that Squeenix tries to avoid frequent content updates by instead providing tedious and boring time consuming tasks repeated at nausiam.
Ironically enough the reason SE slowed down the updates (they used to be far more frequent) was probably because they started working on XIV.

ie. this won't a problem.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
milich wrote:
buttfucking
#101 Mar 23 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm not certain I understand this. WoW is not hard because its hard, but FFXI is hard because its not easy? Challenge doesn't cause people to stop playing a game they enjoy. Real life does.

[...]

I quit because I have other sh*t to do and can't commit to the time constraints that camping NMs at awkward times of the day presents.

[...]

If you ask for candid reasons I'm sure alot of other people who quit will say the same.


NOW I think you're understanding what I'm saying. Is the ability to "commit to the time constraints that camping" an EASY thing? Is is something that is open for anyone and everyone to do? No, it's not. What's the opposite of easy? Hard. Hence my argument that WoW is "easier" than FFXI, not in direct difficulty, but in artificial difficulty.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
If you played FFXI for an hour a day and you play WoW for an hour a day does it make WoW easier because you progress faster toward cap?


YES! EXACTLY! If the average player progresses faster in game A than in game B then game B is easier. What's quicker; average game of tic tac toe or average game of chess? What's quicker; building a table or building a deck? What's quicker, running a mile or running 10 miles? If the same amount of effort put into two different things results in significantly bigger results in one thing, then that thing is easier than the other.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
No, I compared both leveling and endgame.


This is kinda missing one of the points I was making; my argument was that WoW's endgame is filled with so many more bad players (fire standers, <1k DPSers, retardedly aggroing ****, not paying attention, etc) BECAUSE the leveling portion of the game in WoW is easier than it is in FFXI.

To quote myself again:

Mikhalia wrote:
If FFXI is "just as easy"/"just as hard" as WoW, then I encourage every person who plays WoW to start up a FFXI account and level their first character to 75 in approximately the same amount of time it took them to level their first character to 80 in WoW. Chances are, they can't


If you know what you're doing in either game, then yes, leveling is a trivial matter. I could reactivate my WoW subscription or my FFXI subscription, your choice if you wanted to pay the $13/$15 bucks, and get a class/job of your choice from 1-75 in under a month. It's not difficult when you set your mind to it and know what you're doing. That's not my point though.

My point is, for the average person who is going to go out and pick up their first MMORPG today, having never played it before, you can't deny the fact that they have a far better chance of getting to level cap and participating in endgame content in a shorter time in WoW than they do in FFXI. I challenge you to find me ANYONE who says their first WoW 80 took -longer- than their first FFXI 75, assuming the "stop and smell the roses" time was equal. No, it's not a race to the cap in both games for some people, and the developers definitely intended players of both games to take the game at a brisk pace and enjoy the trip, but you know as well as I do that most (not all, but most) players have the mentality of wanting to get to max level as quickly as they can, because for those people, they see the meat of the content at endgame, not mid-levels. More after the jump:

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Just because people may not have the time to invest gathering up people for missions or quests, BCNMs, camping NMs and farming.... whatever it may be. That doesn't make them bads or mean they quit because the game was too hard. You have a pretty masochistic view if you like a game that you feel is meant to chase its players off. You really think that by punishing the players with tedious tasks and dismal drop rates 'trims the fat'? Those who stay to take the beating are hardcore and those who can't hack and have other things to do are bads?


Not exactly. I think you misunderstood me on this part. Firstly, set that aside and consider what you would consider a bad player. Stupid gear choices (Warrior with a dagger?), stupid subjob choice (SAM/BRD yay!), stupid spec choice (All 71 points in one tree ftw!), autoattack and afk (Who needs Weapon Skills, anyway?), stands in fire (Except for Hodir, then they stay way away from the snow and whine about being ice blocked), aggros **** during HNM/boss fights (HAY GUYZ I PULLED A YOVRA DURING AV LOL), etc...

Think about the players in either game, WoW or FFXI, that are just so full of fail that it makes you want to facepalm so hard you break mach 1. Both games have em, but you can't deny that one game has way more than the other (Hint: It's also the one that has more players than the other)

The point I was making, my masochistic view (And yes, I admit it's masochistic) is that I -do- feel that the leveling process of a game SHOULD chase these players off before they ever get to endgame content. My argument was not initially with regard to how hard or easy endgame content should be, or the comparison of endgame content "difficulty" between the two games (although it did turn into that a bit due to my points being misunderstood, but there you go); no, my initial point was that I feel the leveling portion of the game (one that you say and I agree should encompass a minor portion of the overall game picture) SHOULD be harder, be it with time sinks or "wastes of time" or increased actual difficulty, or whatever the game can throw at you to MAKE people who are impatient and stupid quit the game.

Think about it: Trial accounts impose communication limitations on trial account characters so that trial account characters are restricted from bothering the paying customers for the most part (granted, it's mostly directed at goldsellers). I personally feel that the leveling process in an MMORPG should itself be a barrier that forces players out of the game before they ever get to endgame.

Think of all the people you've ever partied with in WoW, that were just shining examples of how stupid a human being can actually be. You can't tell me that, if leveling in that game were made more difficult, by any means (more xp needed to level, higher death penalties, more travel involved, forced grouping at all levels), that at least SOME of those people would probably have quit before they ever got 80. Probably most of them.

Now you're right that if someone really enjoys a game, they're going to slog through it no matter how much **** it throws at you. But if someone is only playing the game for the quick fix, slowing that fix to a screeching halt is going to force them to look elsewhere.

You're addicted to crack. The crack dealer on Elm street sells his crack for $175 a gram, and gives you your crack in a nice fresh ziploc baggie, and even throws in a free pipe to new customers. The crack dealer on Pine street sells his crack for $175 a gram, requires you to bring your own bag, and demands you sing Lady GaGa's "Poker Face" stark naked before forking the crack over, every time.

Price is the same, and neither signing nor stripping are terribly difficult to do, but one of these dealers makes you work significantly harder for the same reward. Which crack dealer do you think is going to get more customers? Subquestion: Which one is going to get a larger amount of the twitchy toothless crack whores who couldn't even belt out Mary Had a Little Lamb with a gun to their head? The artificial difficulty is insurmountable to some people, and it forces them to the other dealer. As such, the guy on Pine Street is going to end up with far fewer white trash crack whores in his crack endgame.

I'm not sure what crack endgame is, but the analogy was working so well for me and I just had to wrap it up somehow. My apologies for finishing weaker than intended.
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