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Will XIV have the WoW factor?Follow

#102 Mar 23 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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LordFaramir wrote:
raynforce wrote:
- Frequent content updates. WoW has something new to add to the game every few months. Granted, the reason they can develop so much content is because their subscription base and financial backing is so large, but Sqeenix does not lack the resources for such updates and thus has no excuses. It seems that Squeenix tries to avoid frequent content updates by instead providing tedious and boring time consuming tasks repeated at nausiam.
Ironically enough the reason SE slowed down the updates (they used to be far more frequent) was probably because they started working on XIV.

ie. this won't a problem.


No, he's right, SE has always published content updates every 3-6 months, whereas Blizzard does it every 1-2. It's been like that for a while. Admittedly, it is one of the things I did like about WoW, even if it did come with weekly server downtime.
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#103 Mar 23 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
- Frequent content updates. WoW has something new to add to the game every few months. Granted, the reason they can develop so much content is because their subscription base and financial backing is so large, but Sqeenix does not lack the resources for such updates and thus has no excuses. It seems that Squeenix tries to avoid frequent content updates by instead providing tedious and boring time consuming tasks repeated at nausiam.


Their method of making content is entirely different though. While Blizzard keeps making more raids, instances and quests, raising level caps and not really straying off that path, SE almost always has a new idea in mind to develop, but new ideas obviously take more time to create. Repeating one thing over and over again comes with an upside that the events itself aren't boring and tedious, at first at least. SE could be making Dynamis-Whitegates, Dynamis-Wajaoms and Dynamis-Bastok Markets [S]'s instead of making Limbuses, Salvages, Assaults Nyzul Isles and Einherjars.

It doesn't mean content updates should come less frequently (lack of funds and XIV are reason for that) but it does explain why we are required to repeat some tasks more than in WoW for example. WoW repeats its well proven formula in different environments, XI introduces new formulas that you do over and over again.

Whichever you prefer, but it's really for the most part quite subjective which you like best, in my opinion. SE didn't do as well as they could have with their method though, so the comparison is not really fair. Blizzard got their method right from almost the start. Hats off to Blizzard for that, but SE's method is not 'worse' by default, imo. XIV might be able to actually do it right.

Quote:
No, he's right, SE has always published content updates every 3-6 months, whereas Blizzard does it every 1-2. It's been like that for a while. Admittedly, it is one of the things I did like about WoW, even if it did come with weekly server downtime.


No, actually the content updates have been more frequent in the past- check out the official site for proof.

2004, 6 updates. 2005, 5 updates. 2006, 6 updates. 2007, 5 updates. 2008, 2009, 4 updates.

In addition to this, before the game came out in the US the updates were as frequent as 1/month. It slowed down fast though, to 1,5/2 months, then 1 per 2 months, etc.

It has never taken SE 6 months to do one update. Ever.


Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 3:32pm by Hyanmen
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#104 Mar 23 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Most of SE's updates are tiny - a few minor bug fixes. If it doesn't add content, it's hardly worth calling an "update" but rather a "fix" ... In WoW even the x.x.+1 upgrades usually add some content, and the x.+1.x usually include more content than the FFXI "adventure packs" that you actually have to (LOL) pay for.
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#105 Mar 23 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
The thing I didn't like about WoW was the disparity in difficulty vs commitment. Now I played FFXI for over 6 years before going to WoW, so I'll admit that in my mind, everything I ever did in WoW was compared to FFXI since it was my first MMORPG. Probably not fair, but there it is. Here were my observations and feelings; YMMV, and that's fine.

1) It was WAY too easy to get to the level cap BECAUSE you could solo nearly the whole way. Unlike FFXI, you weren't -forced- to group at any point before 80. Some look at this as "Well it's easy because you don't spend all that time LFP". I look at it as "Because you're not forced to group, you're not forced to learn your role in a group, or how to play efficiently with other players."

Once people hit 70 (or 80) and have never grouped with anyone, or only grouped occasionally, you get a much much higher percentage of people that just do not know how to handle themselves. They run off and aggro sh*t, they break CC (To the point that no one even USES CC any more except in hard content because the easy content is so easy that it's "too hard" to use "advanced tactics" like CC which were staples in Vanilla and BC), they afk with no warning and/or frequently, they stand in fire, they find ways to get themselves killed (and then blame the tank and/or healer) that you could not have even IMAGINED.

Honestly, I really feel a little bit of forced grouping from 1 to cap would make the game a lot better, but I accept that I am in the minority there.


Its about the same dude. Especially since LFD I spent just as much time in groups as I did on all of my jobs in FFXI. Running dungeons rather than questing at all it was almost identical to my experience leveling in FFXI at that point since I was also good about forming groups in FFXI. And when I wanted to solo in FFXI I had 75 bst and honestly /bst is often better than bst main.

Frankly, the reasons that you list for FFXI to be considered "harder" are the main cause of a little thing called lack of interest. In other words less people play FFXI mostly because of a lack of interest not necessarily a higher challenge or learning curve or greater game design as a whole. Its because nobody gives a sh*t about sh*tty game design and needless or annoying hurdles that do not add to the game. Getting to 75 in FFXI was actually quite easy for me because I formed my groups and I knew how to solo when I wanted. More rigid yes, but if you play by squares logic the sh*t is easy as ****. You can get to 75 in qufim for god sakes faster than you can level normally.

And seriously your account should be deleted by a mod for saying that the challenge of PVP tournaments don't count as challenge. Its easily argued that PVP greater challenge because of the need to know every class and how to think on your feet. FFXI isn't more challenging its more rigid and that has always been the case.

Lack of interest does not equate to higher challenge. The lack of people playing FFXI has little to do with how hard it is. @#%^ing Sunwell could have told you that. WoW had more people playing even when it was arguably just as hard if not even harder than FFXI.

edit: and Yes I am talking only about the top 5% of raiders at the time being compared to the entire pop of FFXI.
edit: again oh btw your quotes there now.

TLDR more players equals more retards your point is nullified.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 3:58pm by thorazinekizzez
#106 Mar 23 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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Can someone post that Picard pic again?

Is there maybe a forum or folder that can host all of the threads that have devolved in to WoW vs. 11? They all start to sound alike at some point, they should all go together.

The fanatics in both communities hate the fanatics of the other community, we've heard all this before. Whether one is harder than the other is irrelevant, since the difficulty of neither game will affect the difficulty of 14.

This thread is dead now, lol.
#107 Mar 23 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Can someone post that Picard pic again?


http://thethirdestate.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/picard-facepalm2.jpg

But also...and even better


http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/28/633502095110658970-facepalm.jpg

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 3:36pm by burtonsnow

Stop crippling these forums zam...you wonder why other XIV have more users :-\

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 3:38pm by burtonsnow
#108 Mar 23 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I didn't actually read your posts.


Yeah, I did notice that.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
I did skim a bit, and just reworded some of what you said to make it possible for my inferior brain to argue against.


Pretty much what I figured you did.

If you do decide to actually read the stuff I wrote and respond to it AS WRITTEN instead of rewording what I said to indicate things I've clearly already covered, let me know.

Thanks!

EDIT: Sidenote - I went ahead and assumed the FFXI character in your sig was yours, looked it up on ffxiah. PM 4-2 and ZM12; no sky or sea/limbus access and yet you claim to know what you're talking about (yet you cite endgame as "beating colibris". Your lack of actual endgame experience in XI explains a lot.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 3:40pm by Mikhalia
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#109 Mar 23 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
I didn't actually read your posts.


Yeah, I did notice that.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
I did skim a bit, and just reworded some of what you said to make it possible for my inferior brain to argue against.


Pretty much what I figured you did.

If you do decide to actually read the stuff I wrote and respond to it AS WRITTEN instead of rewording what I said to indicate things I've clearly already covered, let me know.

Thanks!


But its much easier to just call you wrong....I think i'll do it now


You're wrong!

But on so many levels you are also right.
#110 Mar 23 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
I didn't actually read your posts.


Yeah, I did notice that.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
I did skim a bit, and just reworded some of what you said to make it possible for my inferior brain to argue against.


Pretty much what I figured you did.

If you do decide to actually read the stuff I wrote and respond to it AS WRITTEN instead of rewording what I said to indicate things I've clearly already covered, let me know.

Thanks!


You didn't even touch on what he said.

I'd like to hear an actual reply to what he said - because it seems pretty solid to me.

I like the insult hurling, though. That's one way to respond when you're on the losing side of an argument.
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#111 Mar 23 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
Stop crippling these forums zam...you wonder why other XIV have more users :-\


They reserve picture posting and avatars for premium users; people who pay them money to help them stay in business and pay their employee's salaries.

Since most people block ads anyway (I won't even get into that whole debate about the FFXIAH/Arstechnica thing), it's nice that zam is making at least some money. And if you expect people to pay for a product, you have to offer something.

EDIT: Sidenote, out of 3 pages and 110 replies, have you noticed that only 5 posters have avatars? Unless people are just choosing not to have an avatar, that's only 5 people in 110 posts (Granted, a lot of the posts are the same people talking back and forth) who the site is making money directly from.

Granted, I can't make much of an argument since I don't pay for premium myself; I'm just saying that I wonder if an admin could provide accurate data on how many paying subscribers they have vs total registered accounts.

If you're blocking ads from Alla -and- you're using a free account, they aren't making any money off of you as a customer.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 5:47pm by Mikhalia
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#112 Mar 23 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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I apologize for this devolving into a WoW vs. FFXI debate, that was not my intention. My original post might have come off a little hard on WoW. I will admit I enjoyed playing WoW, this I have stated. The games are different and just because they are both mmorpgs doesn't mean that you can objectively state which game is better. My original post was very subjective not objective. I lean towards liking the FFXI content more so than the WoW. I liked using my patience to get things and I liked the community I was in, probably got lucky because I met some amazing people in FFXI. I did meet some great people in WoW and did some cool things with them but it didn't have the same feel that I liked.

The discussion I wanted to develop was between FFXI and FFXIV and will it be a little less time consuming to appeal to a wider demographic but not be a clone of WoW where you could pretty much solo 80 levels. Sounds like they are going to make party dynamics less rigid and more solo content which I think will make FFXIV better than FFXI for a majority of people. With that said their are hardcore gamers that like the FFXI system and play the game for eliteness, which is cool. It is fun to standout in a fantasy world, name recognition, and accomplishments. I enjoy that facet of the game. I think you can do that in WoW as well but it starts much sooner in FFXI because of the forced grouping(again I like, subjective here) and keeping the same toon for all your jobs(great point whomever brought this up - too lazy to look back for this post).

I like to think that we are all on these boards because we want something better out of FFXIV than what we got from FFXI and WoW or none of us would be so passionate about discussing these things. I am an optimistic gamer and will assume that the creators of FFXIV do diligent research(which includes playing WoW and the others) and will give us something special with this new game.
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#113 Mar 23 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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Jordster wrote:
You didn't even touch on what he said.

I'd like to hear an actual reply to what he said - because it seems pretty solid to me.

I like the insult hurling, though. That's one way to respond when you're on the losing side of an argument.


Actually, I already "touched on what he said" in previous posts, and then some. He clearly has not bothered to read anything I've said, he has just reworded bits and pieces of what I said. So I did the same back.

I really don't know why I'm even bothering anymore since I'm just repeating myself over and over to people who are too **** lazy to read the last three pages worth of my posts where I've already repeated and clarified the same things over and over, but NOOOOO, reading posts is Alla hard mode!

Just for ***** and grins, and again, I'm wasting my time because I've ALREADY COVERED ALL OF THIS **** IN DETAIL:

thorazinekizzez wrote:
Its about the same dude. Especially since LFD I spent just as much time in groups as I did on all of my jobs in FFXI. Running dungeons rather than questing at all it was almost identical to my experience leveling in FFXI at that point since I was also good about forming groups in FFXI. And when I wanted to solo in FFXI I had 75 bst and honestly /bst is often better than bst main.


I said time leveling first job/class to 80, not subsequent ones. It stands to reason that once you have the hang of the game, subsequent level runs are faster and easier. I already covered that.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
Frankly, the reasons that you list for FFXI to be considered "harder" are the main cause of a little thing called lack of interest. In other words less people play FFXI mostly because of a lack of interest not necessarily a higher challenge or learning curve or greater game design as a whole. Its because nobody gives a sh*t about sh*tty game design and needless or annoying hurdles that do not add to the game. Getting to 75 in FFXI was actually quite easy for me because I formed my groups and I knew how to solo when I wanted. More rigid yes, but if you play by squares logic the sh*t is easy as ****. You can get to 75 in qufim for god sakes faster than you can level normally.


"Lack of interest" and "nobody gives a **** about ****** game design" are just sweeping statements taken to assume that everyone wants to play the game a certain way. Whereas I provided very clear examples of artificial difficulty barriers, his reply is "No one cares". The bolded part, again, goes back to assuming you are leveling subsequent jobs and already have a handle on the game's design, and therefore it is not your FIRST time getting to cap; you are already there. Again, I already covered that, but he is (and you are) just making me repeat myself.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
And seriously your account should be deleted by a mod for saying that the challenge of PVP tournaments don't count as challenge. Its easily argued that PVP greater challenge because of the need to know every class and how to think on your feet. FFXI isn't more challenging its more rigid and that has always been the case.


I never said that pvp tournaments were not challenging, I said that the challenge comes by comparing your skill to other players, not to the game itself. I specifically said this, and yet he rewords what I said because it's easier for him to argue this point than what I ACTUALLY said, and suggests "my account should be deleted" for saying something I not only DIDN'T say, but said the OPPOSITE of. Again, forced to repeat myself because reading is hard mode.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
Lack of interest does not equate to higher challenge. The lack of people playing FFXI has little to do with how hard it is. @#%^ing Sunwell could have told you that. WoW had more people playing even when it was arguably just as hard if not even harder than FFXI.


Again, completely ignoring things I have ALREADY SAID. What -I- said was that NOT having ANY barriers in place makes leveling easier than having them. What he implied I said is that the game makes you not want to care, and that makes it harder. Never said that, but those are the words he puts in my mouth and then argues against.

What I ALSO said was that these barriers make people quit (and they do), which means LESS people get to endgame because LESS people are playing. His counterargument? More people are playing the easier game. His argument is to reinforce something I said that he didn't even bother to read. Remember when I mentioned stellar amounts of human stupidity that reach level 80 in WoW? Shining example of it, this guy is.

My argument from the beginning is that more barriers to endgame content force inferior players to quit before experiencing it. This inferior poster/player is practically the posterchild for my argument. He claims to have a ton of WoW experience but has extremely limited FFXI endgame experience because by his own admission, he gave up on the game and quit. What he calls "not caring about the game", I call "Frustration in the face of artificial difficulty". He can't even be ***** to read my posts that have already addressed the points he brings up, no wonder he got sick of FFXI, whereas WoW, a game that practically hands you 80 and purples, is right up his alley.

In the end, the ironic part is that this guy proves my point.
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#114 Mar 23 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Look regardless of the challenge of the game or forced grouping, the more people playing the more retards. Forced grouping would not solve the problem or correct it.
#115 Mar 23 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Cheesdog wrote:
I apologize for this devolving into a WoW vs. FFXI debate, that was not my intention. My original post might have come off a little hard on WoW. I will admit I enjoyed playing WoW, this I have stated. The games are different and just because they are both mmorpgs doesn't mean that you can objectively state which game is better. My original post was very subjective not objective. I lean towards liking the FFXI content more so than the WoW. I liked using my patience to get things and I liked the community I was in, probably got lucky because I met some amazing people in FFXI. I did meet some great people in WoW and did some cool things with them but it didn't have the same feel that I liked.

The discussion I wanted to develop was between FFXI and FFXIV and will it be a little less time consuming to appeal to a wider demographic but not be a clone of WoW where you could pretty much solo 80 levels. Sounds like they are going to make party dynamics less rigid and more solo content which I think will make FFXIV better than FFXI for a majority of people. With that said their are hardcore gamers that like the FFXI system and play the game for eliteness, which is cool. It is fun to standout in a fantasy world, name recognition, and accomplishments. I enjoy that facet of the game. I think you can do that in WoW as well but it starts much sooner in FFXI because of the forced grouping(again I like, subjective here) and keeping the same toon for all your jobs(great point whomever brought this up - too lazy to look back for this post).

I like to think that we are all on these boards because we want something better out of FFXIV than what we got from FFXI and WoW or none of us would be so passionate about discussing these things. I am an optimistic gamer and will assume that the creators of FFXIV do diligent research(which includes playing WoW and the others) and will give us something special with this new game.


For the record, I never said I disliked WoW. I just said I disliked the amount of bad players at endgame. I still play WoW regularly, on a private server. I'm actually playing it right now. WoW is fun, and I enjoyed and still enjoy it. Good game, just too many bad players that (combined with the obsoletion of content) ruined the experience for me and drove me away from the public servers to a place where I could play with like-minded, capable players and still complete endgame content, raids I skipped on public servers (at level) and raid hardmodes.

It's not inaccurate at all to say that there are facets from FFXI and WoW that I hope to see implemented in FFXIV.

I just don't want to see FFXIV be a game in which any person can pick up the game and solo their way to endgame with no roadblocks at all, like WoW is.
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#116 Mar 23 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
the more people playing the more retards.


We agree on this point, then.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
Forced grouping would not solve the problem or correct it.


Again, I'm repeating myself here, but there are three basic types of players.

One group is comprised of "Good players". This group can walk through anything without issue, and regardless of what you throw at them, they will still succeed.
One group is comprised of "Average players". This group will encounter roadblocks and stumble, will wipe to fights, will die, but eventually tend to overcome a challenge.
One group is comprised of "Below Average Players". Anything time consuming or challenging stops them in their tracks and makes them rage. Think this guy.

Players run the range in intelligence and capability from people with an IQ over 200 to people with an IQ slightly below their headset.

Forced grouping doesn't totally get rid of idiots, no, but it does drastically reduce them. Any roadblocks in a game serve to slow progress. The more you hinder someone, the more you weed out who is going to keep going and who is going to quit. Reality shows, the military, the concept of slowing people down in an effort to make them give up is not a foreign one. In the end, you're left only with the people who put forth the effort needed to overcome those obstacles.

Most people will take the path of least resistance. Take my crack dealer example; if you provide someone with two options, one of which requires more work for the same reward, almost everyone will choose the one that requires less work, because it is easier and faster. Easy and fast are the things that morons THRIVE on. If you continually feed someone things that are easy and fast, they will keep coming back. If you continually feed someone someone things that are tedious and time consuming, most will eventually give up when they realize that they're putting in more effort than they feel they should have to.

(EDIT: ****, I'll even admit myself guilty of it; it's why I quit RO. Leveling a character to 70, then starting over again as a reborn at level 1 and leveling it from scratch again... I got to about 130 before I got sick of the constant grind with no reward in sight)

And that's why, even though forced grouping will never totally eliminate that problem, it's just one more roadblock you can force on players to weed out the people who can't take it; to use your words, "make them not care anymore" (and subsequently leave for a different game that doesn't have those roadblocks).

EDIT2: I'll even bring up one more thing that is still repeating myself from previous posts, a point you have overlooked that actually helps your case: WoW hardmodes -ARE- challenging. Despite being really gimmicky, they are genuinely hard content in a game that is otherwise a cakewalk. I never got to experience much of them on public servers due to a severe deficiency in players capable of doing them successfully (even by Blizzard's own words, a tiny portion of their players is even capable of clearing hard modes). Yes, there ARE parts of WoW that are genuinely difficult (and they're why I started playing on a private server; I wanted to be able to actually experience hard mode content without dealing with bads or joining a new guild and playing the DKP game).

The problem is that the real challenge in WoW doesn't come until AFTER you have already hit 80. There is no challenge at all prior to it, and so there's no normal way to separate good players who just hit 80 from bad players who just hit 80. That's where all this "Link Achieve" and Gear score ******** comes into play; good players needed a way to weed out the bads (ironically, gear score is hardly helpful anymore since gear is so easy to get from heroics to get geared for raids in the first place that now you have ****** players using gear score as a reason to not group with others who may be better or worse, but you'll never know because "their gear score is too low". But now I'm going to go off onto a gear score rant if I'm not careful.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 4:29pm by Mikhalia
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#117 Mar 23 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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For the record, I never said I disliked WoW. I just said I disliked the amount of bad players at endgame.


Bad players pay for the game too, if you drive them away that would be less profit for Square-Enix therefore less developers to work on future content. I don't want FFXIV to turn into an Aion.

I want FFXIV to be designed for the widest audience possible so it has frequent updates so I don't get bored with the game quickly.



Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 4:34pm by Pseudopsia
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#118 Mar 23 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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I see what you are saying Mikhalia.
Its not that you aren't making sense your point is pretty clear. Few players tends to create a tighter community. However in my opinion I don't view this as a means to make a better game per say. Fewer players does in fact mean less idiots playing but it also means less skilled players sticking around.

The better solution IMHO is to introduce a better metric for measuring players reliability and dedication through use of in game or web based filtering systems such as gear score. I know gear score is often complained about for not being an accurate measure of performance so I would suggest a more robust system that does not yet exist or has yet to be invented.

You allow for more players and better "filtering" of bads in this way casual players can enjoy the game and you never need to deal with them. You lose less actually skilled players who have less spare time. That is the better method than to globally and purposefully induce a general lack of interest where everyone goes back to wow for their fix and FFXIV never goes above 500k players again.

I'm on the fence about this idea that fewer people playing somehow equates to a better experience. Especially since even with fewer players your still going to run into drgs with phalanx rings in merits. And don't tell me I'm wrong on that one.. More robust ranking and filtering is the better way to go.

I want to see FFXIV be a successful and popular game. Not another FFXI where nobody has even played it other than me which is sad because I work in the **** game industry around people who play games all the **** time...
#119 Mar 23 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Pseudopsia wrote:
Quote:
For the record, I never said I disliked WoW. I just said I disliked the amount of bad players at endgame.


Bad players pay for the game too, if you drive them away that would be less profit for Square-Enix therefore less developers to work on future content.


There's an old saying around the FFXI board; "Your $12.95 does not outweigh our $64.75".

I don't personally feel it makes sense to make it easy for bad players to ruin other players' enjoyment of the game based solely on the logic that "They're paying for it too". If I buy a movie ticket, go into the theater, and start shouting and yelling and carrying on, can I use the "But I paid to see this movie too!" argument? No. It's the theater's right to kick me out because I'm ruining other patrons' enjoyment of the movie. And no, they won't give me my money back.

When you enter a movie theater, there are certain "barriers" in place. No talking, no smoking, etc... Without these barriers in place in the theater, you can bet that more people WOULD talk loudly or on their cell phones, or do whatever else THEY thought was fun to THEM regardless of how many others it bothered. Fortunately, our RL society (mostly) frowns upon being a public nuisance and there are laws in place to tell you what you can't do.

You know what is a barrier every day to going to work? Getting dressed and taking a shower. How would you feel if I hadn't showered in months, showed up to work naked, and you had to sit next to me all day (Assume for the sake of argument that I'm whatever gender you're not attracted to instead of countering with "Maybe you're hot")?

I look at online games the same. If you're playing a single player game (by yourself at home alone) then ****, run around the house naked, covered in bacon grease and yelling whatever the **** you want. If you're playing a multiplayer game, you are now interacting with other people, and that means (or it should, although it really doesn't, let's be honest) you should behave like you would in public.

Would you (let's assume you are most normal people and not some lunatic) really enjoy work if you're in the break room and a coworker dumped a coffee pot on your head and said "LOL COFFEE AGGRO!" or if someone was standing over the copy machine, refusing to let you or anyone else use it because they were too dumb to grasp the concept that people other than them actually want to accomplish something?

There are plenty of examples IRL where there are rules or laws against (Barriers in place) being a nuisance to others, and penalties such as fines, imprisonment, being fired (More barriers) for breaking them.

Let's say you want to go out to eat with your family. Restaurant A is a casual walk-in atmosphere that permits jeans and a T-shirt and Restaurant B is a formal dining room that requires reservations 2 weeks in advance (barrier) and suit & tie or formal evening gown (barrier), and the food costs more (barrier).

Assuming the food is EXACTLY THE SAME, which restaurant do you think is going to get more patrons? The barriers to entry filter out potential consumers, forcing them to go elsewhere (Restaurant A). Chances are, Restaurant A will be louder, have more kids screaming (bad players), whereas Restaurant B will be limited to quieter (and likely more refined) patrons.
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#120 Mar 23 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I see what you are saying Mikhalia.
Its not that you aren't making sense your point is pretty clear. Few players tends to create a tighter community. However in my opinion I don't view this as a means to make a better game per say. Fewer players does in fact mean less idiots playing but it also means less skilled players sticking around.


Agreed, mostly. I slightly disagree with the last part, but not strongly enough to argue the point further since you may in fact be right, so I'll concede it to you.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
The better solution IMHO is to introduce a better metric for measuring players reliability and dedication through use of in game or web based filtering systems such as gear score. I know gear score is often complained about for not being an accurate measure of performance so I would suggest a more robust system that does not yet exist or has yet to be invented.

You allow for more players and better "filtering" of bads in this way casual players can enjoy the game and you never need to deal with them. You lose less actually skilled players who have less spare time. That is the better method than to globally and purposefully induce a general lack of interest where everyone goes back to wow for their fix and FFXIV never goes above 500k players again.


Again, I mostly agree with you, especially in the idea of needing better metrics to weed out bads. Like I said, I'm still playing WoW because I think it's a good game, and I admit that I never got ACTUAL enjoyment out of being forced into things like long party waits and harsh death penalties. It's not that I am so masochistic that I enjoy the barriers, but rather that I enjoy them there because I know they weed out bads, and so I suffer through them. In an ideal game, you would have no barriers and no bads, but IME between the games I've played, more barriers = less bads and less barriers = more bads. So I do agree that there should be a better metric in place; a "skill score" if you will. I still disagree that it's disinterest that forces most people to quit, but rather frustration (with the barriers). In the end, they still quit though so the reason isn't terribly relevant.

EDIT: And gear score is only largely inaccurate because heroics give you 232/245 gear for very little work involved. In pro-LK situations where there was actual raid progression, it might be relevant. Say you had to grind heroics to get ilvl 200s, then do Naxx/OS/EoE until you were Uld-geared, then do Uld until you were ToC geared, then do ToC until you were IC geared... by the time you get to ToC/IC, the difficulty and time requirements of previous raids would likely have weeded out the bads. Unfortunately, Blizzard decided to go a different way and wanted EVERYONE (regardless of skill) to have the ability to experience the current tier of raiding with as few roadblocks as possible. Result? Few barriers = more bads.

T6 content in BC was genuinely difficult, but it was also doable by a larger percentage of the people who actually got to it because by the time you were T5 geared, you had enough raid experience under your belt that you (usually) weren't functionally retarded. In a situation like this where gear leads to better gear leads to even better gear, and each step along the way requires time and effort, gear score would be a valid way to separate the good from the bad. In LK content, you go straight from heroics (entry level endgame content for fresh 80s) to whatever the current tier of raid is. And the result is that you spend more time than you should need to booting the bads and running back to Dalaran to replace them after they can't seem to grasp simple concepts like attacking bone spikes and not standing in bone storm like a **** idiot, having facerolled their way through heroics to get the gear they have.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
I'm on the fence about this idea that fewer people playing somehow equates to a better experience. Especially since even with fewer players your still going to run into drgs with phalanx rings in merits. And don't tell me I'm wrong on that one.. More robust ranking and filtering is the better way to go.


Well the point we both made and agree on was that more people logically also means more bad people, therefore one can infer that less people logically also means less bad people, hence my reasoning that fewer people results in a better experience (for the people who aren't bads). Plus, in a game like FFXI, when you consider that merit camps, dragon's aery, etc were severely overcrowded as it was, I think taking FFXI's 500k and increasing it to 5m would cause massive chaos and result in a WORSE experience unless SE instanced a ton of sh*t, which they never will. In a game designed the way FFXI was, I almost always felt that the current player base was an ideal amount. And for the record, I think their 500k is inaccurate, I think it's really closer to 300-350k but I can't prove it or back it up, so there you go.

And no, I won't disagree with the DRGs in phalanx rings. Like I said, barriers reduce stupidity, but no amount of metrics and barriers will ever truly eliminate it.

thorazinekizzez wrote:
I want to see FFXIV be a successful and popular game. Not another FFXI where nobody has even played it other than me which is sad because I work in the **** game industry around people who play games all the **** time...


FFXI was very obviously designed (initially) with a very specific type of player base in mind. SE wanted players who WANTED to group, WANTED to spend large amounts of time leveling, WANTED to spend large amounts of time waiting for things, and then large amounts of time doing them. I'm convinced that SE's key demographic for FFXI was unemployed people.

Over the years, and to stifle the cries of "Those silly NAs", they have added a lot of things to the game that have made it far more casual friendly than it ever used to be (though I fear it is too late for FFXI to get the player influx it could have had if things like FoV and Campaign were around in 04-05), but it is still nowhere near the casual friendly MMO WoW is, nor will it ever be. It's a decidedly different game with a decidedly different target audience. Let's be honest, it's an Asian grinder. Anyone who has played other Asian grinders besides XI knows what I mean.

I also want to see FFXIV be successful. Regardless of what any of us want specifically to see in XIV (Surnames or not, PvP or not, Soloable or not, Casual friendly or not), I don't think it accurate to say that anyone has wishes for something they want in FFXIV because they DON'T want it to be successful.

I'd love to see FFXIV successful on a level enough where other people have heard of the game and played it. You can't spit in public without it landing on someone who plays or played WoW. Most mentions of FFXI in public were met with confusion or "Oh.. yeah I skipped that one". I'd certainly like to see more people in 14, but I don't know that I'd want it at the cost of dealing with vast amounts of stupid. I deal with enough stupid at work, I don't need it at home too, ya know?

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 5:20pm by Mikhalia
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#121 Mar 23 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
There's an old saying around the FFXI board; "Your $12.95 does not outweigh our $64.75".

And you're attempting to apply that entirely incorrectly here. For one, good and bad players are forced to group together, and second the bad players usually outnumber the good players.
Mikhalia wrote:
I don't personally feel it makes sense to make it easy for bad players to ruin other players' enjoyment of the game based solely on the logic that "They're paying for it too".

That isn't what is occurring. WoW has segmented game play. There is endgame content for the entire spectrum of players. In WoW they don't try to force a single end game raid to fit every player type, they create duplicates or alternates to create challenging situations regardless of your skill level. If an end game instance is too easy for you, then do the heroic or hard mode.

And for the love of Altana, stop using analogies. They're the weakest form of argument and all of yours are pretty poor representations of the real situation.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 4:13pm by Allegory
#122 Mar 23 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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I don't want to see people be able to solo all the way to endgame either in FFXIV. Obviously you could as a BST in FFXI but that was the exception not the rule. I hope FFXIV puts emphasis on the party and not solo content.
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#123 Mar 23 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Default
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For the record FFXI is way more popular the WoW in Japan, where the game originates from. They take their gaming way more serious over there and it shows in my opinion. I don't think FFXIV will be watered down too much because it will have a huge Asian base looking for something more like FFXI than WoW.
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#124 Mar 23 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
There's an old saying around the FFXI board; "Your $12.95 does not outweigh our $64.75".

And you're attempting to apply that entirely incorrectly here. For one, good and bad players are forced to group together, and second the bad players usually outnumber the good players.


But in a forced group scenario, the good players can boot the bad players. If a bad player has a bad enough reputation (and reputations carried further in FFXI than in WoW due to the smaller playerbase), eventually they stop getting invited. You stop getting invited to groups because you suck = you eventually give up and quit, hopefully. Bad players only outnumber the good players when there's nothing in the game that forces them to either get better or leave.

In a game like WoW where there are so many players, reputations don't follow you as well. If one group boots you for standing in ****, you can probably find a new one within 15 minutes, and resume your regularly scheduled standing in ****.

Allegory wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
I don't personally feel it makes sense to make it easy for bad players to ruin other players' enjoyment of the game based solely on the logic that "They're paying for it too".

That isn't what is occurring. WoW has segmented game play. There is endgame content for the entire spectrum of players. In WoW they don't try to force a single end game raid to fit every player type, they create duplicates or alternates to create challenging situations regardless of your skill level. If an end game instance is too easy for you, then do the heroic or hard mode.

And for the love of Altana, stop using analogies. They're the weakest form of argument and all of yours are pretty poor representations of the real situation.


1) There isn't "endgame content for an entire spectrum of players" in WoW, and they DO try to force every player into specific raids. Currently, those raids are Icecrown Citadel, and to a lesser extent ToCr/Ony/VoA. Any Tier 8 or lower endgame content is not viable for gear progression because the gear is outdated compared to what is obtainable from heroics. Heroics offer BETTER gear for LESS work than raids like Naxx and Ulduar. As such, most of the player base takes the content with the fewest barriers (heroics), then goes straight to whatever raid Blizzard tells them they should be doing.

The only OPTIONS Blizzard offers at endgame anymore are regular or hard mode. That's it. Two options. Standard version of the fight, or the same fight, tweaked to a higher difficulty. There is no variety at all, and I've already covered THAT in a previous post too.

Providing players with a choice of two versions of the same fight, one of which Blizzard has admitted the vast majority of their players will never be able to beat is not "endgame content for an entire spectrum of players", it's "Two options, one which almost everyone will do, and another which a small portion of people will do". Unlike BC era where there were over half a dozen raids that everyone still had a reason to do, the current endgame situation sees nearly everyone go from heroics to IC, with a weekly VoA/Ony thrown in there if needed.

2) I like analogies. I will continue to use them. I almost considered using an analogy to describe my feeling about analogies but couldn't come up with one.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 5:37pm by Mikhalia
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#125 Mar 23 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Cheesdog wrote:
I don't want to see people be able to solo all the way to endgame either in FFXIV. Obviously you could as a BST in FFXI but that was the exception not the rule. I hope FFXIV puts emphasis on the party and not solo content.


It's possible to solo to cap as any job in FFXI. It just takes a lot more time, to the point that it's not worth it for many people. It's not even so much that you're "forced" to group as, in the case of FFXI, grouping is (ironically, considering my argument) the path of least resistance in the game.
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#126 Mar 23 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
Stop crippling these forums zam...you wonder why other XIV have more users :-\


They reserve picture posting and avatars for premium users; people who pay them money to help them stay in business and pay their employee's salaries.

Since most people block ads anyway (I won't even get into that whole debate about the FFXIAH/Arstechnica thing), it's nice that zam is making at least some money. And if you expect people to pay for a product, you have to offer something.


I'd be more inclined to donate money for offering superior gaming support, reviews, wikis etc. I understand their reasoning behind it, but from a user standpoint it is absurd, especially since there are other boards whose features are free to use (or their features are enabled after 10 posts to stop spammers).

Most forums are started because the person creating it has a vested interest in the topic, not because they want to make money. IMO it is the same thing as paying for download-able content that so many of zam's users argued against.
#127 Mar 23 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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burtonsnow wrote:
Most forums are started because the person creating it has a vested interest in the topic, not because they want to make money. IMO it is the same thing as paying for download-able content that so many of zam's users argued against.


They're a company; their primary goal is (or should be) to make money. If they aren't making money, they go out of business. And the forums themselves are free to use, you just can't link pictures or have avatars. Yes, other forums have that, but embedded pictures, while usually humorous or helpful, are not mandatory to convey a point. Linking to the image is usually just as effective.
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#128 Mar 23 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Think this guy


Heh I knew it was that guy before even clicking xD

Quote:
That isn't what is occurring. WoW has segmented game play. There is endgame content for the entire spectrum of players. In WoW they don't try to force a single end game raid to fit every player type, they create duplicates or alternates to create challenging situations regardless of your skill level. If an end game instance is too easy for you, then do the heroic or hard mode.


In theory it's this, but in reality it's most certainly not. There are maybe multiple raids available, but people usually just play the last new one if you're in an endgame guild. If you're a casaul player you're probably stuck with randomly, pugged raids for lower older content and you'll most certainly die all the time, because hey, you're stuck with all the retards!

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 2:48pm by RedGalka
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#129 Mar 23 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's possible to solo to cap as any job in FFXI.


This was because of Fields of Valor right?
Back in the day when I was an 11 junkie you couldn't solo past 15. But admittedly I've been out for a few years.
#130 Mar 23 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
I deal with enough stupid at work, I don't need it at home too, ya know?


Yeah
You shouldn't ever be grouped with people not at your level. and believe me when it comes to casuals the feeling is mutual most of the time.

Also lol at the thought of 5m players in FFXI... your right it would make it impossible to play pretty much. Tons more servers needed than wow would have as a result.
#131 Mar 23 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
They're a company; their primary goal is (or should be) to make money. If they aren't making money, they go out of business. And the forums themselves are free to use, you just can't link pictures or have avatars. Yes, other forums have that, but embedded pictures, while usually humorous or helpful, are not mandatory to convey a point. Linking to the image is usually just as effective.


I agree they aren't *necessary*, but they are definitely *appreciated* when you have those features. I'm sure some users even leave these forums for this reason. To truly think about this from a business standpoint you need to look at the users lost because of lack of these features vs the amount of subscriptions. I don't have the numbers to answer this or I would, but for me it doesn't make sense. It makes even less sense when we realize the internet was created to be FREE!
#132 Mar 23 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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burtonsnow wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
They're a company; their primary goal is (or should be) to make money. If they aren't making money, they go out of business. And the forums themselves are free to use, you just can't link pictures or have avatars. Yes, other forums have that, but embedded pictures, while usually humorous or helpful, are not mandatory to convey a point. Linking to the image is usually just as effective.


I agree they aren't *necessary*, but they are definitely *appreciated* when you have those features. I'm sure some users even leave these forums for this reason. To truly think about this from a business standpoint you need to look at the users lost because of lack of these features vs the amount of subscriptions. I don't have the numbers to answer this or I would, but for me it doesn't make sense. It makes even less sense when we realize the internet was created to be FREE!


To look at it from a business standpoint, ask yourself how many people would not be giving money to the site if they didn't have to pay for the features that premium gives vs how much money people who don't come to this particular forum site are really costing the site since, if they aren't going to post because they can't have pictures, they probably wouldn't have paid for premium anyway.

Added irony that this just proves another example of my whole "barriers" argument: If you put something in that makes something harder on someone, they are more likely to go elsewhere.

Also, the internet was not created to be "Free" in the monetary sense, it was created with the thought of the free exchange of ideas in mind; that is to say that people are free to discuss topics they feel are relevant to them more freely than if they did not have the internet and actually had to go outside and find someone to pick an argument with. And don't even get me started on the notion of "Freedom of speech" on the internet because that's a barrel of monkeys all its own.

Very little in life is truly free in the literal monetary sense of the word. Websites cost money in terms of salary to the people who run them, server space to store the data, bandwidth/ISP/hosting/energy costs to power the place, etc. Plus, the site pays for its admins to fly to CA and Japan and **** for fanfests, which can't be cheap; that money all has to come from somewhere.
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#136 Mar 23 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Cheesdog wrote:
I don't want to see people be able to solo all the way to endgame either in FFXIV. Obviously you could as a BST in FFXI but that was the exception not the rule. I hope FFXIV puts emphasis on the party and not solo content.


It's possible to solo to cap as any job in FFXI. It just takes a lot more time, to the point that it's not worth it for many people. It's not even so much that you're "forced" to group as, in the case of FFXI, grouping is (ironically, considering my argument) the path of least resistance in the game.


Ya, and you could walk across the country but it is more practical to fly. Soloing to 75 in FFXI on most jobs is a near impossible feat based on the number of hours it would take to kill enough easy prey. The game was not designed for solo play after say level 12 on most jobs. That was my point - WoW was built to solo, FFXI was not and I hope FFXIV will not be soloable by all jobs.
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#146 Mar 24 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Pseudopsia wrote:
Mikhalia, it amazes me how much BS comes out of your mouth. You use inappropriate facts and analogies.

Quote:
There's an old saying around the FFXI board; "Your $12.95 does not outweigh our $64.75".


This may be the case for FFXI because it has driven all the unskilled players out of the game with the force grouping and all that’s left is a few new players and a lot of fans. I would say in WoW there’s probably 10 times the amount of unskilled players then skilled ones. And WoW probably has more then 10 times the amount of subscribers then FFXI which in theory means the have probable about 10 times the available funds to go towards expansions. You think a company wants to make a game that will have been restricted to a few players. FFXI design was appropriate at the time because there was no WoW that existed. However, now there are tons of alternative MMO’s if you attempt that design today it would fail just like Aion is. Any you can’t just copy Blizzard’s approach; it has to be the best from all MMO’s and something new.


So, my argument is that FFXI's game style forces unskilled players to quit, you say I'm wrong; that my facts and analogies are inappropriate, and then you go on to detail how FFXI's game style forces unskilled players to quit. I see. Or rather, I don't. You call me wrong, then explain how I'm right.

Pseudopsia wrote:
Quote:
I don't personally feel it makes sense to make it easy for bad players to ruin other players' enjoyment of the game based solely on the logic that "They're paying for it too". If I buy a movie ticket, go into the theater, and start shouting and yelling and carrying on, can I use the "But I paid to see this movie too!" argument? No. It's the theater's right to kick me out because I'm ruining other patrons' enjoyment of the movie. And no, they won't give me my money back.


This is an inappropriate analogy. This analogy would be appropriate for bad player in the sense as obnoxious ones that flame the chat channels not bad player in the sense of unskilled ones. These players you just add to your ignore list. I have no idea how unskilled players ruin your game. You don’t pug, you create a linkshell/guild selecting the best people you can find and you can take on end game content.


And you do it a second time. First you say that bad players -can't- ruin the game for other people, THEN you say that you "have no idea" how they can ruin the game for other people, and THEN you say "you don't pug", as if not pugging is the way to avoid bads (And you're right, it does avoid most of them) which inherently implies that you DO ADMIT AND KNOW that pugging (which nearly all of WoW's subscriber base does) results in bad players in your group, players who, yes, can ruin the game for you.

So again, you tell me I'm wrong and then go on to explain in detail how I'm not.

Pseudopsia wrote:
Your further analogies are even worse. Grow up and learn to deal with different people. I’m surprised you didn’t use a racist analogy, because you are just like a racist, but against other players who don’t play as well as you do.


And then in closing, after proving me right TWICE, you say I'm "like a racist". I'm not sure if Godwin's Law applies here, but it's pretty close.

You think I'm wrong on any of my points? Argue my points specifically. Tell me how forced grouping encourages bad players to succeed. Tell me how making it take LONGER to get to endgame results in more players. Tell me how The ability to solo to the cap and skip all but the most current tier of raid content DISCOURAGES bad players and weeds them out.

You can't. After trolling this thread for three pages, you accuse me of spewing BS and then you waste two paragraphs explaining why I'm right and a third with an ad hominem attack in lieu of any actual argument.
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#147 Mar 24 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
health care debate now?
All we need now is Godwin's law and religion and we can form the iron triangle.

edit: Also the argument that if you are paying for the game you should be able to do whatever you want is flawed. It actually touches a gray area of the term Griefing. A sort of passive Griefing on other players. Imagine applying this logic to most other activities. Its detrimental to ignore the fact there are other people who are also playing the game.

Filtering systems really are important for an mmo.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 1:06pm by thorazinekizzez


Does me being called a racist count as fulfilling Godwin's Law? It's not exactly within the rules, but it's getting there. And again, I have no idea how it got derailed to health care exactly.
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#149 Mar 24 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia and Aurelius should seriously meet, fall in love and get married. Then they should make a baby who will be the best block-quoter the world has ever seen. That is, of course, if as the name suggests, Mikhalia is actually female, but I digress.

There is no skill required to reach level cap in WoW. I've done it 6 times (albeit to different level caps over the years) and the only challenges were the challenges I made for myself. It can be proven quite easily - there used to be an illegal bot program called wow-glider than could level from 1-cap with the user only moving their character from zone to zone every few hours.

On the other hand, the only skill required to hit level cap in FFXI is knowing how to find or build a group. The grouping aspect serves as more of a deliberate stumbling block than an actual challenge. Back in my day (can't comment on now) the hardest part of leveling up was finding a group, and then finding an appropriate spot that wasn't over-camped, and then praying that no one in the group leveled up too soon. That's not skill. That's patience.

Both games feature a plethora of end-game content (and mid-game, too, in the case of FFXI) that are challenging. Both games feature players that lead the charge into challenging content, playing their job/class like a champion and succeeding. Both games also feature players who sponge off others, never really do much of value, and still end up in good gear. FFXI gear changes very little over time, and WoW gear changes almost every patch. Just like the real world, both virtual worlds are populated by all sorts - some nice, some not nice, some smart, some stupid, some ignorant, some racist, some competitive, and some that just want to make friends and have fun.

I think that sums it up. Both games are awesome for what they are, as demonstrated by their relative success. Playing either game does not make you better than people playing the other game. Sorry.

As for health care ... Hah ... I live in Canada. I have never felt the slightest financial burden related to my health. Our system is not perfect, but it works. We pay higher taxes, but we live the same quality of life, if not better. Our rich still prosper, despite paying 48% on their top dollars. We don't let our poor die at home because of lack of resources, nor do we give honest, hard-working people 6-figure hospital bills that can effectively undo an entire life of responsible saving and take away people's houses. Kudos, America, on electing a progressive president and finally allowing a health care bill to pass. I really hope it is the start of something great. OBAMA '08!!



Edited, Mar 24th 2010 1:23pm by Jordster
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Trubbles Stormborn - 25 ARC / 22 CNJ ... 18 FSH / 14 CUL

#150 Mar 24 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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48,718 posts
I prefer my learning curve to be during the game, not thrown at me suddenly at end game.
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