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An idea to counter RMT: NM drop rate modifiersFollow

#1 Mar 20 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know if this has been suggested before--sorry if it has--but I just randomly got an interesting idea for combatting RMT.

Here it is:

NMs are known for dropping items unique to them. For every one of these NM-unique items, each character has a modifier that affects the drop rate for that item. This modifier ranges from 0 to 1, and defaults at 1. Each time you kill a NM and get the drop, your modifier for that item falls by a certain amount, say 10%. Now, every item that can drop from a mob has a base drop rate. The actual drop rate, though, is going to be this base rate times the average multiplier of everyone who established hate on the mob.


Here's a few examples:

A, B, and C are in a party together. They are fighting an NM named Mobber that can only drop one item, Item X, and it has a base drop rate of 10%.

1) If this is the first time A, B, and C have ever encountered Mobber, then their average modifier will be 1 ( [1+1+1]/3 ), and the actual drop rate will be 10% ( 1*10% )

2) If A, B, and C are RMT and have killed Mobber and got the drop 22, 17, and 30 times respectively, then their average modifier will be 0.1025 ( [.9^22+.9^17+.9^30]/3 ), and the actual drop rate will be 1.025% ( 0.1025*10% )

3) If A, B, and C are casual players who have killed Mobber and got the drop 1, 0, and 6 times respectively, then their average modifier will be 0.8105 ( [.9^1+1+.9^6]/3 ), and the actual drop rate will be 8.105% ( 0.8105*10% )


Now, the modifier would have to slowly reset so you aren't permanently penalized for killing NMs. Maybe .25 a week? People need to be able to help their friends kill NMs too! Haven't fully fleshed out all the possibilities here, but you get the point. Bonus points for anyone who has an idea how to implement this in a way that maximizes the reset for legitimate players (helping their friends and whatnot) while still preventing RMT from just going on a circuit and killing a new NM every couple days or something.


Anyway, doing this will prevent the same players from monopolizing the drops for any NM. The % that the modifier drops for every NM kill could be adjusted on a mob-by-mob basis, too, to prevent horrible drop rates on NMs that normal players might need to kill often. It might even be zero for instanced NMs, because there's no worry about monopolization there.


Edited to look prettier ha
Also edited to take TandoPandemonium's positive criticism into account :P
And to take Twangaz's excellent time-reset idea into account (twice, had to clarify it)

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 5:27am by Morsmorde
#2 Mar 20 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Okay idea, but this would affect RMTs and normal players equally much. In fact, RMTs could just keep making new characters everytime their NM droprate was unacceptably low.

I think a better solution for countering RMTs is to increase the possible pop randomness significantly for every NM. The biggest problems with RMT and bot-claiming and such was the NMs that popped EXACTLY the same place at EXACTLY the same time interval. If you increase the possible pop area and make the pop times more random, it would be impossible to camp the NM, and so it would be more random who encountered it.
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#3 Mar 20 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
Okay idea, but this would affect RMTs and normal players equally much.


Sure, it would also prevent non-RMT players from monopolizing the same NM over and over and over, but I'd say that in nearly all circumstances that would be a good thing ha

insanekangaroo wrote:
In fact, RMTs could just keep making new characters everytime their NM droprate was unacceptably low.


That's a major hassle, though. This isn't about eliminating RMT--that would be impossible--it's about dis-incentivizing it as much as possible.

insanekangaroo wrote:
I think a better solution for countering RMTs is to increase the possible pop randomness significantly for every NM. The biggest problems with RMT and bot-claiming and such was the NMs that popped EXACTLY the same place at EXACTLY the same time interval. If you increase the possible pop area and make the pop times more random, it would be impossible to camp the NM, and so it would be more random who encountered it.


It wouldn't be impossible to camp it, it would just be harder to camp it. It would do wonders against bot-claiming, I will admit, but it still wouldn't do anything to prevent diehard RMT from camping the same NM over, and over, and over ad nauseam.

Also, it takes away from the neatness of some NMs having their own "home" in the world, with unique terrain and whatnot. There's something impressive or mystical about that sometimes ha


grammar edit


Edited, Mar 20th 2010 4:36am by Morsmorde
#4 Mar 20 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's an idea: removes NM's completely. Camping for spawns on hours on end, for an item only one mob has a chance to drop, is ****** game design and simply not fun.
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#5 Mar 20 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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What If it's a regular player who hasn't had the item drop yet. The more they kill the mob then the less chance they have for the drop.
#6 Mar 20 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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TandoPandemonium wrote:
What If it's a regular player who hasn't had the item drop yet. The more they kill the mob then the less chance they have for the drop.


Excellent point! Rate up for you... I'll fix that now, gimme a few hah

edit: was I getting downvoted for cursing? is that not kosher 'round here? i'm not sure on all the rules..

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 5:21am by Morsmorde
#7 Mar 20 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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How about if there was also a factor of time added into the equation. It's 4:30 in the morning right now, so I won't even bother trying to manufacture an acceptable equation that is similar to yours, but I think this could further your idea. So let's say, each "NM kill" lasts for one week. So if you kill "NM X" everyday at the exact same time for 7 days, on the 8th day, your kill count will still remain 7. I think this allows for casual players to go and camp an NM to perhaps make some gil or get lucky with a drop, without any sort of monopolization on behalf of RMT or hardcore players. Everyone shouldn't have to suffer permanently for killing an NM.

Now for what's wrong with this system. In any sort of economy, there are businesses which monopolize their product. It sucks, but it is part of an economy. Think about the iPod and how it monopolizes the MP3 market. I think players should be free to spend their time and try to monopolize an NM or a source of money, just as Apple had the freedom to do its research and release a great product. But of course, it should be done in a completely legal fashion. I have faith SE has something in the works to combat RMT right off the bat in FFXIV. It was somewhat of an expected problem with FFXI, so they had to continuously update after the game was released, but they created FFXIV with the thought already in mind of RMT.
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#8 Mar 20 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Twangaz wrote:
How about if there was also a factor of time added into the equation. It's 4:30 in the morning right now, so I won't even bother trying to manufacture an acceptable equation that is similar to yours, but I think this could further your idea. So let's say, each "NM kill" lasts for one week. So if you kill "NM X" everyday at the exact same time for 7 days, on the 8th day, your kill count will still remain 7. I think this allows for casual players to go and camp an NM to perhaps make some gil or get lucky with a drop, without any sort of monopolization on behalf of RMT or hardcore players. Everyone shouldn't have to suffer permanently for killing an NM.


I like the **** out of this, too. Adding to the main post...

Twangaz wrote:
Now for what's wrong with this system. In any sort of economy, there are businesses which monopolize their product. It sucks, but it is part of an economy. Think about the iPod and how it monopolizes the MP3 market. I think players should be free to spend their time and try to monopolize an NM or a source of money, just as Apple had the freedom to do its research and release a great product. But of course, it should be done in a completely legal fashion.


Monopolies are never good, at least in MMOs where there's no such thing as economies of scale or barriers to entry (at least the kind that results in stuff like redundant infrastructure). It's just market-power-pricing down the throats of the non-monopolists... ***** that music ha
#9 Mar 20 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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I like the concept there is one problem. The more people that you add to the group that are new to the NM would make it less relevant on how many times the others have fought the NM.

Using your math: IF player A wants another drop. He could invite 4 more people who have never gotten the drop. 8% ([1+1+1+1+.9^999]/5)

Guild Leader: Hey do you want to join us?
Noob: Yea
Guild Leader: Well you have to help me get the Mobber drop to join.

On the other hand I guess it would be kinda fun to be a mercenary for hire.
/sh "Noob for Hire! MobberA=0 MobberB=0 MobberC=1 10k a piece!"
#10 Mar 20 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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FluEpidemic wrote:
I like the concept there is one problem. The more people that you add to the group that are new to the NM would make it less relevant on how many times the others have fought the NM.

Using your math: IF player A wants another drop. He could invite 4 more people who have never gotten the drop. 8% ([1+1+1+1+.9^999]/5)

Guild Leader: Hey do you want to join us?
Noob: Yea
Guild Leader: Well you have to help me get the Mobber drop to join.

On the other hand I guess it would be kinda fun to be a mercenary for hire.
/sh "Noob for Hire! MobberA=0 MobberB=0 MobberC=1 10k a piece!"


True, I thought of that, but figured that it wouldn't be too feasible. The noobs would have to get to the high-level areas where the most lucrative NMs are, generate hate on those NMs, and then survive any AOE attacks (your enmity falls to zero when you die?).

I also thought of not counting the modifiers of characters within a certain level range from the highest in the group. That's a possibility that might work after being fleshed out a bit, too.
#11 Mar 20 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not being able to get help from friends to kill nm because if would lower droprate is going to suck.
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#12 Mar 20 2010 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Not being able to get help from friends to kill nm because if would lower droprate is going to suck.

The effects would be negligible if your friends aren't killing the NM dozens of times a week.
#13 Mar 20 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
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I think we should make every drop 100% and the item EX/Rare. Let's face it, RMT arent going anywhere. In china RMT got companies take trainer people to do this camping crap all day. **** i think its a career.
#14 Mar 20 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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I applaud you for coming up with such an idea and think it is quite good however I would never want it implemented simply for the fact that farming items for income in game is a viable plan and should not be penalised. Some people do not have time to go out and farm items and find it easier to buy them.

Take Spook for example. Drops the Traveller's Mantle. Worth almost nothing nowadays but people still buy them. As a result you have almost no competition and its hardly ever camped by RMT (Only ever remember one on Unicorn, not very good though). Now if I had the time to spend farming something unpopular, should I be punished, no not really.
#15 Mar 20 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Items should be 75% bop or rare ex. if it comes from NM and I wouldn't be suprised if we get some sort of instance sytem where there are mobs only for the groups that entered.
#16 Mar 20 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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FluEpidemic wrote:
I like the concept there is one problem. The more people that you add to the group that are new to the NM would make it less relevant on how many times the others have fought the NM.

Using your math: IF player A wants another drop. He could invite 4 more people who have never gotten the drop. 8% ([1+1+1+1+.9^999]/5)

Guild Leader: Hey do you want to join us?
Noob: Yea
Guild Leader: Well you have to help me get the Mobber drop to join.

On the other hand I guess it would be kinda fun to be a mercenary for hire.
/sh "Noob for Hire! MobberA=0 MobberB=0 MobberC=1 10k a piece!"


What is even worse is that RMT'ers could take advantage of this by making a few new low-lvl characters and joining a party with a high lvl RMT'er, just to increase the droprate of the party.
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#17 Mar 20 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Better idea - take those long spawn timers out of the game. The whole multi-hour (or multi-day) spawn timer idea comes from EQ, and by today's standards is extremely frowned upon outside of the FFXI and EQ communities. It's considered ancient, lacks any "gameplay" element (spamming a macro and praying is NOT playing), and when you think about it, is a disgrace to your dignity as a human being.

If SE wants to include rare spawns, make them spawn RANDOMLY in a large area of the world. That way, you need to be lucky to run into them. Whoever finds one and can call in their LS/guild fastest ends up with a chance to kill it. Having a mob spawn in one of 4 locations and having people standing around for hours spamming a macro and praying for a claim is just pathetic by 2010 standards.
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#18 Mar 20 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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So your idea is to punish people trying to make money, and raise the price of the item that monster might drop by doing nothing for the monopoly but increasing the item's rarity?
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#19 Mar 20 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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If you just make all the good stuff drop from guildleaves, no problem...
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#20 Mar 20 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I think as long as NM's drop stuff that's sell-able RMT will find ways to work around whatever equation that's out there. Just make drops Rare/Exclusive. So the people that "need" the item will be the ones hunting for it.

Edited, Mar 20th 2010 12:15pm by vaudian
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#21 Mar 20 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
Smart developers don't implement mechanics that punish everyone equally in an attempt to discourage RMT. There's nothing inherently evil about camping NMs or even monopolizing NMs if you've got the time and the reflexes. What's evil is taking the proceeds from the sale of the drops and selling them to other players in exchange for real currency.

In the OP's example, you're basically punishing players for getting the drop. That's it. RMT or legit player alike.

There are two things that typically make RMT bad. First, they violate the end user agreement by selling in-game currency for real world currency. The second is that since their livelihood depends upon their ability to generate in-game currency to sell, they tend to take a very liberal view of the rules of the game and are typically not at all hesitant to use third party applications to cheat (bots, speed hacks, clipping hacks, etc.) Those are the things you look for as a developer maintaining an MMO. Blizzard uses Warden, an often misunderstood and consequently controversial application to reduce and/or eliminate the use of illegitimate third party systems. From there, it becomes a function of having systems in place to track the transfer of in-game currency and high value items that flags suspicious activity for human review. If a developer can stay on top of those to aspects of RMT activity, they don't need to mangle the rest of the game in order to discourage it. You can't discourage through in-game mechanics. You discourage them by making it so costly for them to do business that they have to close up shop. No game is free of RMT activity, but properly managed the impact it has on the legit players can be reduced to the point where it's not more than a minor nuisance.


Edited, Mar 20th 2010 9:33am by AureliusSir
#22 Mar 20 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Default
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Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no. I would help shell mates farm NM's, be dumb if me helping would lower the rate because I already have the item. Deal with it, RMT is in every game thinkable online, and is not gonna go away. FFXI from my view has done the best job at fighting RMT's tho.
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#23 Mar 20 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
Lovestospoon wrote:
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no. I would help shell mates farm NM's, be dumb if me helping would lower the rate because I already have the item. Deal with it, RMT is in every game thinkable online, and is not gonna go away. FFXI from my view has done the best job at fighting RMT's tho.


Ummm...no. FFXI is the only game I've ever heard of where warms of legit players were banned by an automated system for legitimate activities that just happened to be similar to those exploited by RMT.
#24 Mar 20 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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#25 Mar 20 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly and I would hate to take a page from WoW but instances fix that. You run with a group and items drop, very seldom was there a mob roaming the world in WoW that you would spend hours waiting to kill. Go in instance at set time with Linkshell, kill all mobs and bosses, share the loot thru a point based system and everyone wins. Also make a good percentage bind on pickup (ex) to make it so people cant spend points on items that others in LS want just so they can make a quick buck / gil .
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#26 Mar 20 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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As few other have said here, i think the best way to counter RMTs would be R/EX drops only. I hated that in FFXI that almost everything was buyable, good items cost a fortune, but still. I hope they implement a system where you actually have to go and kill the NM/Boss to get items, and not just farm as much money as possible to get your items. Imo those world spawn NMs which drop good equipment should be mostly removed, as i want to play instead of just watching screen for hours doing nothing. I'd really love to see some instanced system for most of the bosses, and make those bosses hard because they are hard to beat, not hard because its hard to even encounter them.
#27 Mar 20 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I kinda swing both ways on this topic. On one hand I can understand wanting to be able to sell certain drops, I have also seen the affects caused by the RMT's on these rare items.

You have to ask yourself, what is more important, getting that nifty (insert random item here) For yourself and then moving on or being able to sell it to someone else for a nice chunk of change. Chances are that you are not going to want to camp mobs hours on end much when the game first starts, it wont be till later down the road when the luster has worn off.

I myself, would like to be able to farm the mobs to sell them items, However I don't want to not be able to get other items because someone named Jkkj is the only person who ever tags the mob first 24/7. So I guess I would say I have to sacrifice what I want for the greater good here and just make the items R/EX.
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#28 Mar 20 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
I remember talking to someone about this back in 2004. I don't mean to say we talked about the OP's idea, but RMT and NM's in general. We came up with the idea that NM's should spawn randomly. I mean, that they should spawn anywhere in the world, at any random time. It's hard to camp a mob, that can spawn ANYWHERE.
#29 Mar 20 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Tenfooterten, Assassin Reject wrote:
I remember talking to someone about this back in 2004. I don't mean to say we talked about the OP's idea, but RMT and NM's in general. We came up with the idea that NM's should spawn randomly. I mean, that they should spawn anywhere in the world, at any random time. It's hard to camp a mob, that can spawn ANYWHERE.



Lol, I can just see a lv. 1 noob going out of town for the first time to slay the metaphorical bunny only to stumble upon a kraken NM in a desert.

Point being if they spawn anywhere people are going to get murdered by random NMs.
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#30 Mar 20 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
Aramail wrote:
Tenfooterten, Assassin Reject wrote:
I remember talking to someone about this back in 2004. I don't mean to say we talked about the OP's idea, but RMT and NM's in general. We came up with the idea that NM's should spawn randomly. I mean, that they should spawn anywhere in the world, at any random time. It's hard to camp a mob, that can spawn ANYWHERE.



Lol, I can just see a lv. 1 noob going out of town for the first time to slay the metaphorical bunny only to stumble upon a kraken NM in a desert.

Point being if they spawn anywhere people are going to get murdered by random NMs.


If your lvl 5, and an NM kicks your ***..... How is it different from the bunny that was going to kick your *** anyway?
#31 Mar 22 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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My take on this situation is that, It is impossible to make an MMO that will not be exploited to some degree by real money trading. Its just impossible to stop the power of greed. Especially considering that over the past years, game design has made it possible for these people to thrive, thus creating a career niche for thousands of people.

Given this, I feel that for FFXIV to be successful in its fight against being heavily exploited, the game itself needs to be designed in a way that accepts that a certain amount of RMT activity is going to exist, regardless of what they do to counteract it.

To explain; Ask an honest player what the worst, most gut wrenching aspect of RMT presence in an MMO is and he will likely say something like; "I hate how to have the best items I have to work for weeks, months even, and then some gil buying asshat can simply charge his credit card x.xx amount of dollars and poof, he achieves the same goal." That is a crappy situation to be in, and I've been there many times.

So to avoid putting your honest players in that situation, game design should create layers of item quality, and place the layers that are most susceptible to RMT exploits in the acceptable, but not best quality-mid-range. Then, higher, and highest quality items should be ra/ex(no big revolution here), available in instances, guildleves, through trade of points, or other means not workable by the RMT. This should be across the board, not just some items here and there.

It should include craftables too, when the craftable item is considered high or highest quality for that slot. A possible way to do this is to make the best material in that recipe only obtainable through instance, guildleves, trade of points, or other means. If this excludes low-level-crafting-only type mules from obtaining said ingredients, well, so be it. The reason I say that is because in FFXI it was far too easy for RMT to mass produce crafting mules and power level their craft to 100. Players (including myself) did this as well but the reasons were mostly because of the only-one-level-100-crafting skill rule. Just create a system of crafting that doesn't require people to do this.

So to put it simply, I believe the focus should be on creating a manageable RMT presence, NOT attempting to do the impossible and create a game free of RMT impact. And absolutely NOT creating a game that simply doesn't take into account the effect of RMT when designing its economy and gameplay (read: AION)
#32 Mar 22 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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This idea fails. There is only one way to combat RMT and it'll never happen. It involves people not being lazy and 'working' for their gear, weapons and whatever else they need to play the game.


RMT don't exist solely to camp NMs. Make all the drops from NMs rare/ex or non-tradeable and you'll still have RMT going on. They'll mine, harvest or fish it up as they've proven. Elaborate scheme, but the only way to have an MMO without RMT is to have an MMO without virtual commerce.
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#33 Mar 22 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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I prefer if there's just a high drop rate so that people aren't compelled to fight the same mob over and over, and therefor aren't likely to feel the need to RMT it in the first place.

Wouldn't be an awful system if the drop rates were really high but still difficult to obtain due to the challenge of the battle, but in general I think this is a fix to an inherently broken system of difficult to claim mobs with low drop rates.


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#34 Mar 22 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Great idea OP, I think something like this is a good idea.

At the end of the day though, this should never happen to anyone in XIV:

Leaping Lizzy: 1/32
Valkurm Emperor: 1/26
Stray Mary: 1/29

It's disgusting.
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