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Pugilist: A TankFollow

#52 Mar 29 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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Yo...I vote Allegory for president/mayor w/e in Limsa Lominsa..... lol. No but I agree with him alot. See, I know Pugilist have whistle as a way to gain some enmity. Does not mean it will be a tank, in fact, saying anything should and will do this or that still is pointless.

1. They could easily change any aspects in a heartbeat.(The alpha beta is just starting, or soon right?)

2. We just need to see what the game brings and role with it from there. Its annoying and boring when like stated earlier about manaburns and only certain classes being able to attend certain quests/events/w/e(typically for ease at least this was the leading reason I received when asking a good bit of people respectfully why they only wanted to do that ..but F that sorry..I play for fun, if challenge is involved..all the more fun...I got noooo intentions of trying to be anything other than my own path. An best part is aside friends who also dont care, you can solo better this time it would seem.

3. Just because Pugilist can provoke, doesnt mean it will be a tank. Just cause you see a piece of pie, dont mean its for eating, sh*t may be on display dude. That was a silly comparison but I'm just showing that I am not trying to 1-up nobody, I am just expressing a opinion an idea. We really also do not know the basic stat points(geez if there are any yknow?) This time pugilist could be weaker in VIT, so maybe Whistle..is a lower form off a provoke to help out the tank, whoever it may wanna be..**** it could be a lancer for all we know. SE is trying somewhat to spell it out for some, but...its MMO-RPG for a reason. This is just how I see it, its a game, fun, new, excitment+1.

Sure some say that they wanna take it serious(this being reason they go hard core sorta and just get the best gear/players/etc, thats great, but just like I dont try to push my opinions on them, nor should they to others with diff. play style. I am only out to kill time after classes at home, I dont personally care about being better than someone else or playing competitively, doesnt go to say I dont want those things nor work hard for them.(Leaping Lizzy:1/15 VE:0/22 BCNMS for only a few examples.)What are you going to do since I dont have that +1 shmuck? Kick me from pt? XD We will just have to see what unfolds when the complete version is finally here. Again, I dont want anybody to get offended or take what I am saying the wrong way...you cant read tone. lol ^^v

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 3:00pm by AshtionFFXIV

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 3:04pm by AshtionFFXIV
#53 Mar 29 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
thorazinekizzez wrote:
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:

I could paraphrase all of what you just wrote thusly:

"I have no idea how to answer those questions."

Thanks. Next.


Actually I did answer them. The quality of the question often determines the quality of the answer. Your idea to ask impossibly stupid and broad questions as a method to make yourself sound smart is not helping your point.

Obvious Troll


You call these answers?

Quote:
1) How to tune content to be challenging but manageable in the absence of a generalized group structure.
By tuning the game to be manageable for soloists yet still be interesting for larger groups.. ( Long answer would be 500 word document where I talk about a combat system balanced in such a way ) lol this is retarded...


I call that a dodge, not an answer. Full of vague, devoid of specifics. In short, a cop-out.

Quote:
2) How to draw the line between accessible, casual content if the strategic requirements are over the top.
By making it so it is clear what is meant for more than one person vs what is meant to be soloed. ( I feel like I'm talking to a child asking why the sky is blue ) ( Once again the long answer would be 500 word document on how to implement @#%^ing UI functions to make it easy to explain to the player what is required to complete various tasks. )


Really? Making what clear? How? Assuming what? Based on what party composition? More vague, still no specifics, another cop-out. Are you talking on on-screen tutorial for each encounter? Just what is it you think a UI is going to do to sort out for the people in an unstructured party just what it is each of them is supposed to be doing in an encounter so that they aren't duplicating one task and neglecting another? If you're just going to dodge and whine, say so. If you have no intention of backing up your claims that it would be reasonable to have generally unstructured parties in an MMO as the standard, don't make the statement that the person who pokes holes in your lame idea is narrow minded. If you haven't got a solution to the issues your idea creates, you haven't got a workable idea.

Quote:
3) How to account for the myriad class combination potentials in a game shaping up as FFXIV is if there is no generalized group structure.
By the way did you know that making MMOs is hard? Like this question is filed under normal stuff you have to deal with when designing a huge MMO...


Total dodge. That wasn't an answer...that was a deflection. Get your act together and try again.
#54 Mar 29 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
VayMasters wrote:
No matter how much you weight your argument has, Aurelius will never recognize any of it. So you might as well argue with an orange Toyota Camry with a spoiler.

He expects every single detail, just so he can say it'll never work.


In this case, I'd be happy with a small handful of details that go beyond examples of exceptions and references to exceedingly dated games.

Shouldn't you be writing your manifesto?
#55 Mar 29 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Too busy having a life and debating with my friends than just telling that they're wrong, stupid and communist.

C you next Tuesday.

All you ever do is just say no. Are you a baby boomer? When you just say no, it ends all discussion and just creates an argument, you do it every single time. Why not offer suggestions, or alternatives. Are you so afraid of things being different that you sit at your computer all day just to **** on other peoples thoughts?

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 6:21pm by VayMasters
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#56 Mar 29 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Too busy having a life and debating with my friends than just telling that they're wrong, stupid and communist.


I can smell your insecurities from here...they smell...delicious.

Quote:
All you ever do is just say no. Are you a baby boomer? When you just say no, it ends all discussion and just creates an argument, you do it every single time. Why not offer suggestions, or alternatives. Are you so afraid of things being different that you sit at your computer all day just to sh*t on other peoples thoughts?


Only the dumb ones. There are LOTS of threads on the first page of the list that I haven't commented on. That's not to say I think they're all great ideas (or bad ones, for that matter), interesting topics of discussion, or even worthy of mention but to each their own. I challenge ideas that strike me as just flat out wrong, or unworkable, or just so ludicrous as to be amusing. And you all don't seem to disappoint. I'm seeing a trend that inspires me with such delightful glee. I'll pick apart an idea until someone gets butthurt and emoplodes and then they follow me around taking shots. You could have commented on the idea. You could have weighed in with your own thoughts on the no-tank/no-healer concept, but no. Just a shot at me. It's cute. And flattering. A little lame, though.

Actually, more than a little lame. It's pretty weak. Seriously. You can tell I hurt your lil feelings when you're just so riled up from your last batch of communist propaganda that you couldn't contain yourself here.

So be a sport, maybe, and if you're going to whine about my approach to certain things, at least check your own contribution. Sticking your nose into a thread for no other reason than to take a shot at me doesn't do you any credit.
#57 Mar 29 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hahahahahahaha, You couldn't hurt my feelings if I let you. Your just an insignificant idiot who thinks he's always right. You must have no friends.

I can smell your loneliness from here.

And don't flatter yourself, no ones following you around, you just post where those people post too.
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#58 Mar 29 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
VayMasters wrote:
Hahahahahahaha, You couldn't hurt my feelings if I let you. Your just an insignificant idiot who thinks he's always right. You must have no friends.

I can smell your loneliness from here.


lewl u r teh winzorz teh intartoobz.

srsly.

Anyone whose best retort is "you must have no friends" is like...awesome. It's like flashbacks to the third grade. Thanks for the nostalgia. It's heartwarming. It's the same crybaby trend that plays out time and time again around here. Someone posts an idea. I challenge it. Instead of refining, clarifying, or debating, they just try to strawman the whole thing to death. When they can't do that, they just sob and cry and carry on, replace intellectual discussion with red arrows when they can, and then sit aloft their minitature high horses thinking they've accomplished something.

If the goal is to be dumb, I'd say that yes, you and thorazine have accomplished what you've set out to do.

Quote:
And don't flatter yourself, no ones following you around, you just post where those people post too.


You uhh...care to show me in this thread where you've actually commented on the topic at hand? I don't think you can. Hence...just showing up to take shots. See...I have evidence. You have dumb. Evidence > dumb. Conclude what you will.
#59 Mar 29 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually one of the coolest systems I have ever thought about is a system where everyone's HP pools are normalized to roughly 80-120. So much like in Ultima online the highest actual HP value you can have is around 120 ish. But the damage system would also work very differently.

Then you do a Morale system on top of that where every class has a Morale pool. All attacks are blocked and dodged parried but it drains morale to do so. While the base damage of all weapons are setup according to the much smaller hp pools everyone has the more skilled you are with a weapon greatly enhances how much moral is drained with your attacks. Morale pools can be much larger spanning thousands of points in size.

Once all Morale is drained to zero you can actually see a cool death animation where you run a guy through with your blade or mortally wound someone greatly effecting their stats. In this case it would only take one good slash from a dagger to put you down just like in real life.

What this does is it creates an environment where people are trying to drain each other down in such a way as to finally get a dramatic final attack that hits your actual HP pool. So basic combat revolves around dramatic shield blocking and dodge animations and when you final spray the walls with someones blood it is really gratifying. All fights would see sparks flying as blades clash and armor deflects attacks draining moral on either side. Rather than the retarded stuff we see in most games where guys are getting bashed in the face over and over again and it doesn't effect them at all. This would be far more cinematic like watching a movie based on all of the animation work that can be done.

Imagine two thieves fighting each other dodging and parrying dual wielded blades in quick succession until one of them finally slashes through the others main hp pool then rams the blade through his chest finishing him off. None of this "You hit so and so for X damage" crap this would be @#%^ing slick where the only actually landed attack is the deadly one. It also means that you can merely wound someone and not actually kill him making it possible quickly regain ground as your wounded character pops a cool down to prevent the second and final killing blow long enough for a friend to intervene.

Anyway in this kind of situation all classes can then be healers as well as dps based on the fact that there are so many ways you can raise or replenish moral. A warrior can commanding shout raising the Moral of the group as well as in some cases merely ripping through another person and performing a devastating attack can lower moral of all other people on the opposing side while raising moral on your side.

In this case a samurai can easily be a healer because he uses his heavy 2 hand sword to gutt his foes. All who witness the act would be effected in some way. In this system spells, and weapons would be treated much the same. Casting a fire bolt would be defected off a paladins shield.

Team work can also be had when fighting larger monsters in that new class archetypes could be created. Instead of a tank and healer combo a system like this would mean that some people would need to be designated to throw large spiked chains to try and keep a behemoth from moving around too quickly or escaping while everyone else works on beating it down. In this case people would have different jobs and can switch between them as needed on the fly.

A well implemented version of this system where fights are dramatic and brutal to watch would be the new @#%^ing crack for me. Sorry WoW you can keep your Everquest k thanks.

edit: Oh BTW AureliusSir. You can start backpedaling now. It will go from "You cant answer that question" to "Gah that sounds soooo dumb!"

LOL

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 8:47pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 8:53pm by thorazinekizzez
#60 Mar 29 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Team work can also be had when fighting larger monsters in that new class archetypes could be created. Instead of a tank and healer combo a system like this would mean that some people would need to be designated to throw large spiked chains to try and keep a behemoth from moving around too quickly or escaping while everyone else works on beating it down. In this case people would have different jobs and can switch between them as needed on the fly.

A well implemented version of this system where fights are dramatic and brutal to watch would be the new @#%^ing crack for me. Sorry WoW you can keep your Everquest k thanks.

edit: Oh BTW AureliusSir. You can start backpedaling now. It will go from "You cant answer that question" to "Gah that sounds soooo dumb!"


You didn't answer the questions. You spouted on and on about your glorious idea to effectively replace HP with "moral". (I think you meant morale, unless you're talking about a game where people attack each other with debates about capital punishment and abortion.)

And instead of getting hit you negate damage until your morale is depleted. In terms of function, it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Morale...HP + armor + avoidance...all the same thing. Same functional purpose.

Sorry...your ideas might have a place somewhere, but they're poorly fleshed out. Very poorly. Some people actually enjoy tanking and some people actually enjoy healing. I know at least one poster here has said that they're all about the healing and for me, personally, having done the damage, tanking, and healing roles to some extent in both FFXI and WoW, I prefer tanking. So you'd alienate one segment of the population...albeit a small one...by eliminating roles that people prefer in order to replace that system with one that is so inherently undefined and complex that your game would be for not more than the hardcore. And since SE has already said that they like the tank/healer/damage setup and that they're aiming for a more casual feel to the game, I'm afraid your idea doesn't fit.

See how that works? At some point you have to translate an idea from concept to function. Your concept, all by itself, is fine. Translating it to an MMO where you're going to be interacting with hundreds of different people and expecting things to run smoothly and expect them to share your zeal for having to review strategy on a persistent basis for the most mundane group oriented tasks is a bit tricky, and to think it's so simple is rather naive.
#61 Mar 29 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Translating it to an MMO where you're going to be interacting with hundreds of different people and expecting things to run smoothly and expect them to share your zeal for having to review strategy on a persistent basis for the most mundane group oriented tasks is a bit tricky, and to think it's so simple is rather naive.


Well MMOs tend to have lots of players. Sorry that its too complex for you to grasp though.
Also Morale is the point of the system in that you can raise and replenish this new form of HP in various new ways that makes more sense than a straight up hit point system can provide. IE everyone is a healer, everyone is a dps.

And for that matter what is MOST attractive to this concept is that you would still need to do many different things to take down a large dragon. In a more realistic setting a dragon wouldn't just sit around attacking the guy with the most threat lol. Maybe in your opinion that's still totally awesome bro!! but I say the early 2000s called and they want their game back.

Having to use large nets with spears while people move into the front to take down a large beast together sounds amazing. Especially if the guys on the nets are having to keep alive from attacks. There are just so many different things you would need to do to take down a dragon in a system like this. But what I like most about this idea is that your having to back peddle so much now. I mean your entire post had to resort to correcting my spelling LOL. That's all you got dude!

ANYWAY I'm done now. It was fun but speaking to lesser minds like yourself tends to get boring after awhile.

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 8:50pm by thorazinekizzez
#62 Mar 29 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
thorazinekizzez wrote:
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Translating it to an MMO where you're going to be interacting with hundreds of different people and expecting things to run smoothly and expect them to share your zeal for having to review strategy on a persistent basis for the most mundane group oriented tasks is a bit tricky, and to think it's so simple is rather naive.


Well MMOs tend to have lots of players. Sorry that its too complex for you to grasp though.
Also Morale is the point of the system in that you can raise and replenish this new form of HP in various new ways that makes more sense than a straight up hit point system can provide. IE everyone is a healer, everyone is a dps.

And for that matter what is MOST attractive to this concept is that you would still need to do many different things to take down a large dragon. In a more realistic setting a dragon wouldn't just sit around attacking the guy with the most threat lol. Maybe in your opinion that's still totally awesome bro!! but I say the early 2000s called and they want their game back.


Tell that to SE. It's 2010 and they're still getting set to release a game with tanks and healers.

Quote:
Having to use large nets with spears while people move into the front to take down a large beast together sounds amazing. Especially if the guys on the nets are having to keep alive from attacks. There are just so many different things you would need to do to take down a dragon in a system like this. But what I like most about this idea is that your having to back peddle so much now. I mean your entire post had to resort to correcting my spelling LOL. That's all you got dude!


Ya, so instead of tanking you throw nets. Do you not yet understand that I'm talking about the entire scope of the game, not just endgame? And I've said as much, too.

Narrow thinking is bad, k?
#63 Mar 29 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something I would like to point out here.

People don't seem to realise what a hybrid is. A hybrid is a class that does more than one role. That means if you can be a damage dealer and you can heal, you're a hybrid. If you can be a damage dealer and have the mob focus on you (a tank) then you are a hybrid. If you can tank and you can heal you are a hybrid. If you can do all three, you are a hybrid.

So yes, unless you all run around doing so much damage and taking so little that no one dies and you defeat your opponent, you will either have to have strictly different class types i.e. healing + damage + possibly tanking, or you would have to have hybrids, i.e. people who can both do meaningful damage, and who can heal and possibly tank.

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#64 Mar 29 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
People don't seem to realise what a hybrid is.

I don't see that occurring in this thread. I ctr+f'd every instance of the work hybrid just to quickly go back over it, and I see no errors in how people are defining it. You're going to have to quote me the specific usages you're referring to.
Fetter wrote:
So yes, unless you all run around doing so much damage and taking so little that no one dies and you defeat your opponent,

That is vaguely what we're getting at. Tanking isn't necessarily needed, damage isn't necessarily needed, healing isn't necessarily needed, control is not necessarily needed. The typical framework is used because it works well and is extremely easy to design and implement. That doesn't mean it is the only way or the most fun.
#65 Mar 29 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Fetter wrote:
People don't seem to realise what a hybrid is.

I don't see that occurring in this thread. I ctr+f'd every instance of the work hybrid just to quickly go back over it, and I see no errors in how people are defining it. You're going to have to quote me the specific usages you're referring to.
Fetter wrote:
So yes, unless you all run around doing so much damage and taking so little that no one dies and you defeat your opponent,

That is vaguely what we're getting at. Tanking isn't necessarily needed, damage isn't necessarily needed, healing isn't necessarily needed, control is not necessarily needed. The typical framework is used because it works well and is extremely easy to design and implement. That doesn't mean it is the only way or the most fun.


It was in reference to comments like the following:

Allegory wrote:

Quote:
In the absence of those specialized roles, it's a group of hybrids running around playing a solo game just with more people involved. That's not to say that you won't find exceptions or that there is no room for originality or a new spin on old concepts. How do you structure a group if everyone can soak the hits, everyone can do solid damage, and everyone can heal? You can't. How do you sort out who is doing what?

It just doesn't make sense. Neither Thorazine nor I have mentioned hybrids, hybrids are in no way needed for our suggestion to be viable, and we've made explicit use of examples where there are no hybrids. It's a strawman, but not some sort of deliberate or malicious one, but a failure to understand what thorazine and I are getting at.


People may not be using the word Hybrid, but that is what they are describing, regardless of what name is used. Many times thorazinekizzez described players who could do a little bit of everything, depending on the situation and/or what was needed.

And I agree, there are ways that you can develop which would allow you to possibly take one out, but you always have to have at least two out of the three. What it sounds like to me, and I admit I could just be reading you wrong, is that you and thorazinekizzez are advocating is some sort of FPS MMO with swords and sorcery? I think it would be either too chaotic or too bland if everyone could do the same things, and just used what was needed should the situation arise, but that is why I play MMORPGS and not multiplayer FPS games.
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#66 Mar 29 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Fetter wrote:
People don't seem to realise what a hybrid is.

I don't see that occurring in this thread. I ctr+f'd every instance of the work hybrid just to quickly go back over it, and I see no errors in how people are defining it. You're going to have to quote me the specific usages you're referring to.
Fetter wrote:
So yes, unless you all run around doing so much damage and taking so little that no one dies and you defeat your opponent,

That is vaguely what we're getting at. Tanking isn't necessarily needed, damage isn't necessarily needed, healing isn't necessarily needed, control is not necessarily needed. The typical framework is used because it works well and is extremely easy to design and implement. That doesn't mean it is the only way or the most fun.


I'm not saying it's the only way. There are exceptions in all games. ****, even thorazine's example of spiked chains holding down a large mob has been done (though not quite exactly how he described it). No-tank/healer parties worked in FFXI...in a very limited number of scenarios. Non-traditional classes have been used to tank raid encounters in WoW (warlock tank on Leotheras the Blind in SSC comes to mind). My response was to the idea of doing away with tanking and healing altogether, with the point being that a modern MMO without those roles would either be altogether too easy or too convoluted...take your pick. Fully replacing the tank role with a myriad assortment of roots, snares, and stuns, would be tedious as all ****. Once in a while, sure. Combination of tanking + CC, sure. All things CC'd all the time? **** no. And if you can survive group encounters (large or small, midgame or endgame) largely without any kind of tanking, healing, or CC, you're talking about a faceroll easy game.
#67 Mar 29 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
The typical framework is used because it works well and is extremely easy to design and implement. That doesn't mean it is the only way or the most fun.


I'm sorry, but this is subjective. What is most fun for you is not necessarily most fun for everyone else, or even close to the majority. Obviously, a great many people find the structured roles in MMORPGs to be more appealing than games where everyone is a jack of all trades or just does one thing (damage) so well that they kill their opponents before they themselves are killed (FPS types)

I don't mean to be inflammatory, it's just a sticking point for me.
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#68 Mar 29 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
People may not be using the word Hybrid, but that is what they are describing, regardless of what name is used. Many times thorazinekizzez described players who could do a little bit of everything, depending on the situation and/or what was needed.

I went back to read through all of his posts. You are correct that he did mention the idea of hybrids, but it was only once and it was more of a suggestion about how to go about creating more unique parties. He is not asserting that you have to have hybrids, but that hybrids can be a good way to go about creating more unique parties, and I agree with that.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
If every class can heal, tank, or dps but cannot do all of these things at exactly the same time then your goal is to work with your team as well as possible to pay attention to WHO the monster is currently targeting and change tactics based on that. Now your class synergy and personal playing skill is what makes your group successful. To me it almost makes the idea of always being a tank, always being a dps sound almost two dimensional.

Fetter wrote:
And I agree, there are ways that you can develop which would allow you to possibly take one out, but you always have to have at least two out of the three.

Well first I'd assert that there are more than three--for example I think support and control are very distinct roles--and next I don't believe you technically need even two. It happens though that games tend to be far more interesting with heterogeneous groups, but it's fully possible to have a homogeneous party of all tan/healers/DD/whatever succeed.
Fetter wrote:
What it sounds like to me, and I admit I could just be reading you wrong, is that you and thorazinekizzez are advocating is some sort of FPS MMO with swords and sorcery? I think it would be either too chaotic or too bland if everyone could do the same things, and just used what was needed should the situation arise, but that is why I play MMORPGS and not multiplayer FPS games.

I cannot speak for thorazinekizzez, but that is not at all what I'm suggesting.

What I'm suggesting, is that games allow for functional atypical parties. A typical party in an MMORPG tanks and spanks. Atypical parties are groups like manaburns (no tank, just DD and support), kiting, no heal groups (I understand many /nin parties can be like this), BST parties, and a variety of others.

Some ideas that I've toyed with, but not fleshed out, involving a buffer class who effectively turns any player into a tank by buffing their armor/defense. In a sense this was still allowing for tank and spank, but I thought it was a slightly more unique take on it. I think it'd be interesting to see a a typically fragile DD like a drk or blm going all out on damage and having a guy standing behind him casting spells that make the drk or blm a rock wall. I even thought of a way to prevent abusing the spells on existing tanks so that they don't become broken, it involves raising armor/defense to a ceiling rather than adding a straight amount.

Another idea I've toyed with is a class that specializes in controlling enemies. Maybe he paralyzes them so that they cannot attack, maybe he slows down their attack rate or weakens their damage so that their DPS is very low, maybe he causes them to occasionally attack other. Rather than having someone strong enough to tank the attacks you make the enemy so weak that the fragile members aren't in much danger.

These are just a few possibilities, in no way fully detailed; there are other ways to do things than tank-and-spank. I just want to see developers try something different.

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 10:27pm by Allegory
#69 Mar 29 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is subjective. What is most fun for you is not necessarily most fun for everyone else, or even close to the majority.

I believe you read that sentence with the wrong intended connotation. I wasn't asserting my idea is necessarily the most fun for everyone.

"That doesn't mean it is the only way or the most fun."

What I am saying is there are other possible ways to beat encounters other than tank and spank--which I think we can agree on--and that tank and spank isn't always necessarily the absolute most fun. I'm not suggesting that every MMORPG be built specifically to avoid tank and spank. But I think there are a good number of people who want to try something different, and I think that adding something different alongside tank and spank would be nice as well.
#70 Mar 29 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I wouldn't mind it if they added alternate options alongside "tank and spank" as long as those alternates don't end up eclipsing what I would consider proper group make up.

When I left FFXI, none of these "burn parties" existed. Groups required you to have what I would term "proper" make up (tank, healer, dps, support). Sadly, I leveled up too quickly, and found myself without much to do after hitting cap about 5-6 months after NA release, so I left the game. Last year, I decided to give the game another try, only to discover if you weren't x job, or x with y sub, or y sub you were often considered sub optimal or even worthless, and people didn't want you because you couldn't participate in their "burn parties".

I just don't want to see FFXIV move in this direction, which I fear may happen if they try too hard to cater to casuals by giving them the ability to bypass certain roles in parties.

Again, these are just my personal views and preferences, which means they are not necessarily more valid than anyone else's. I am also not insinuating that you would or would not prefer a more casual atmosphere. It's just something I see potentially happening as an end result of these suggestions taking root.

Edited to add: I would like to point out that "tank and spank" is being used a bit too loosely around here. Tank and spank implies that it is a simple fight where the tank just sits there and builds threat, and the dps just dps, and the healers just heal. Just because you have a tank that makes the mob focus on them, and a healer in the group dedicated to healing, doesn't make it a "tank and spank".

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 3:51am by Fetter
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#71 Mar 29 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
Just because you have a tank that makes the mob focus on them, and a healer in the group dedicated to healing, doesn't make it a "tank and spank".

You are correct, but the vast majority of leveling--and much of the end game--in FFXI did also happen to be tank and spank. This is also true of many MMORPGs.
Fetter wrote:
It's just something I see potentially happening as an end result of these suggestions taking root.

I think the problems in FFXI were more fundamental that the existence of burn parties, so I'm not sure it us accurate to draw a connection between the problems you experienced and the presence of burn groups.

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 10:58pm by Allegory
#72 Mar 29 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Of course the problems in FFXI were more fundamental than the existence of burn parties. Burn parties were the end result of the core problems. I just don't believe the answer to the problem to be the allowance of groups that bypass job requirements for successful parties, because such allowances breed things like burn parties.
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#73 Mar 29 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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on a side note: As far as with FFXIV I am not actually sure if tanking will be what we are expecting. From allot of the talk Square wants to move towards large group vs Large group combat. In besieged and campaign all a "tank" did was die less often than everyone else as far as I was able to tell. Both campaign and besieged were a blast but tanking any of it was pretty much a joke.

Honestly in those cases I was more likely to take out my rdm/blu and hope for the best. SE has made it pretty clear that they want lots of enemies at once and I even see speculation of grouped monster combat. Even in FFXI grouped monsters were a ***** to fight because it was impossible to get them all together and target anything. a brd was the best way to deal with that. Luckily such fights were fairly rare.

I am not entirely sure what SE has in mind as far as what is a tank and what is not. They have been clear about healers though that much I am sure. Id hold my tongue before assuming FFXIV is going to require tanking any more than FFXI did.

edit trimmed for repetition

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 1:05am by thorazinekizzez
#74 Mar 29 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, it may be warranted specifying when in the game you are referring to. In the first 1-2 years of FFXI, a tank was absolutely mandatory for the vast majority of the available content.
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#75 Mar 29 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
To be fair, it may be warranted specifying when in the game you are referring to. In the first 1-2 years of FFXI, a tank was absolutely mandatory for the vast majority of the available content.


actually at early levels and lower level groups id say especially between 40-55 ish before TP burns come into full swing on lesser colibri the standard tank was pretty much needed for a 6 man. before level 40 it is more efficient to 2 and 3 man in smaller groups with signet bonus for fastest xp.

That was when I left the game about 2 years ago.
#76 Mar 29 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just realised my previous post may come across as being argumentative for the sake of argument alone. I apologise.

I also would like to put forth the possibility for consideration that they are giving jobs like the Pugilist a "taunt" like ability for set-ups, kind of like how some parties would have a DD job who subbed /war taunt off the puller, so that you could do a sneak/trick on the actual tank at the beginning. Since there aren't exactly sub jobs in XIV, and we don't know exactly how the cross class abilities thing will work (the belief that you can learn skills and abilities on one job and have them carry over to another).
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#77 Mar 29 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Fetter wrote:
wrote:
To be fair, it may be warranted specifying when in the game you are referring to. In the first 1-2 years of FFXI, a tank was absolutely mandatory for the vast majority of the available content.



actually at early levels and lower level groups id say especially between 40-55 ish before TP burns come into full swing on lesser colibri the standard tank was pretty much needed for a 6 man. before level 40 it is more efficient to 2 and 3 man in smaller groups with signet bonus for fastest xp.

That was when I left the game about 2 years ago.


I'm sorry, but what does signet have to do with exp? I admit it has been a long time, so perhaps I simply forget. Back then from what I remember (please note: I'm talking about the first two years after FFXI release, which was 5+ years ago), the best experience was attained by having a party set up similar to PLD + WHM + RDM and/or BRD + various DD, preferably a static party who worked together well, chain pulling. Regardless of level.

Edited for: Forgot to add the quote.




Edited, Mar 30th 2010 5:26am by Fetter
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#78 Mar 30 2010 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Fetter wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Fetter wrote:
wrote:
To be fair, it may be warranted specifying when in the game you are referring to. In the first 1-2 years of FFXI, a tank was absolutely mandatory for the vast majority of the available content.



actually at early levels and lower level groups id say especially between 40-55 ish before TP burns come into full swing on lesser colibri the standard tank was pretty much needed for a 6 man. before level 40 it is more efficient to 2 and 3 man in smaller groups with signet bonus for fastest xp.

That was when I left the game about 2 years ago.


I'm sorry, but what does signet have to do with exp? I admit it has been a long time, so perhaps I simply forget. Back then from what I remember (please note: I'm talking about the first two years after FFXI release, which was 5+ years ago), the best experience was attained by having a party set up similar to PLD + WHM + RDM and/or BRD + various DD, preferably a static party who worked together well, chain pulling. Regardless of level.


within the last 3 years or so SE added a xp bonus to signet for running with smaller groups. They also made it so killing easy and decent challenge mobs would give much higher xp as well. This coupled with fields of valor and it really did make it so smaller groups > 6 man groups for normal progression. Some classes still performed better in larger groups however like brd.

The only way 6 man groups would really beat smaller groups for lower levels would be to almost exploit the level sync system in Qufim island with very optimal tp burns. brd or cor + 5 dps with a PL pulling in 16k per hour were not rare. And getting in one of these was easy because a person that's level 20 would be seen as an XP battery.

once tp burns become the standard after level 55 I wouldn't really consider a first voke a tank at all. Well for slower groups first voke would tank fairly often but even in the case of a pld he was best off to go with a DPS set and in many cases forgoing a shield for a second weapon.

Anyway I think what I am getting at is the new system sounds even more flexible than in FFXI. I am willing to bet that SE will create an environment where we the players decide what is optimal again. Either it be ninja tanks or no tank at all its entirely possible the system will be so organic there is no telling what class will be the most optimal for anything until we start crunching actual numbers. Whether or not we will need a traditional tank at all for most of the content really does remain to be seen.

edit: actually I remember that around the time I left the game the traditional pld turtle tank was frowned upon for xp 99% of the time because more damage resulted in higher xp per hour. Brds would drop group if the tank was not a dps most of the time in merits. bouncing hate around def the way to go for the most optimal setups.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 10:05am by thorazinekizzez
#79 Mar 30 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:

edit: actually I remember that around the time I left the game the traditional pld turtle tank was frowned upon for xp 99% of the time because more damage resulted in higher xp per hour. Brds would drop group if the tank was not a dps most of the time in merits. bouncing hate around def the way to go for the most optimal setups.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 10:05am by thorazinekizzez


This is exactly the type of thing I really hope they avoid. In this scenario, what happens to the paladins? They are SoL?
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#80 Mar 31 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Fetter wrote:

This is exactly the type of thing I really hope they avoid. In this scenario, what happens to the paladins? They are SoL?


They were forced to DPS rather than tank.
Pure turtle tanks, even the best ones were SoL unless they adapted. Everyone was dps in merits but the healer. In some cases even the healer was dps such as drg/blu or dnc/nin /whm.

I agree that they needed more options for turtle tanks to gain merits at the level cap though. The only class that was purely SOL were blm at end game forcing them to mana burn or GTFO.. That was sh*tty imo but the environment created by this was still very interesting to me. It reminded me of the bst community in many ways back when that stigma was still going strong.

edit: for that matter I hope they avoid this kind of thing myself adopting more of a bring the player not the class kind of way.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 2:56pm by thorazinekizzez
#81 Mar 31 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
The only class that was purely SOL were blm at end game forcing them to mana burn or GTFO..


Well, first, we did sort of bring it on ourselves hahaha, as once I started manaburning (and I know a lot of my blm friends were the same way) I never xp'd the old way anymore, manaburns started long before ToAU was even known to be coming.

Second, manaburns were still viable after ToAU came out, as they even included area's in ToAU that increased XP/hour for a manaburn party, as well, blm could easily solo around 10-12k xp/hour in the ToAU area's on the right mobs.

Just saying, don't feel to bad for blm post ToAU in the TP burn era :P
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#82 Mar 31 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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thorazinekizzez wrote:


edit: for that matter I hope they avoid this kind of thing myself adopting more of a bring the player not the class kind of way.



My problem with the "bring the player not the class" theory is that it leads to homogenization.

I would prefer it if they made it so that every job brought something unique and sought after to the party, but you could still do well without that thing with a little skill tweaking, for instance, say one group gets x amount of exp per hour. They have a dedicated plate wearing "turtle tank". Another group isn't able to get that type of tank because they are more scarce, so they get a Pugilist in that swaps some abilities around to be more tank orientated, but because they still take more damage than the turtle tank, and do more damage as well, the healer has to swap things around to specialise in healing a bit more, and damage less (I realise that most likely, you won't be able to heal and do damage at the same time because of the passive/aggressive thing, but this is just an example) but because the Pugilist does more damage than the turtle tank, that loss from the healers extra dps is made up for and they end up getting the same x amount of experience per hour.
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#83 Mar 31 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I would prefer it if they made it so that every job brought something unique and sought after to the party, but you could still do well without that thing with a little skill tweaking, for instance, say one group gets x amount of exp per hour. They have a dedicated plate wearing "turtle tank". Another group isn't able to get that type of tank because they are more scarce, so they get a Pugilist in that swaps some abilities around to be more tank orientated, but because they still take more damage than the turtle tank, and do more damage as well, the healer has to swap things around to specialise in healing a bit more, and damage less (I realise that most likely, you won't be able to heal and do damage at the same time because of the passive/aggressive thing, but this is just an example) but because the Pugilist does more damage than the turtle tank, that loss from the healers extra dps is made up for and they end up getting the same x amount of experience per hour.


Sorry to be a pedant but FFxiv has no jobs or experience points.
Where did you get the idea that a pugilist will take more damage than a "turtle tank"!? They would take less surely as they would be a type of evasion tank.
Also there is no reason to believe a gladiator in tank mode would do less damage than a pugulist in defensive mode at all, the only diference is that one evades and the other uses heavy armour and a sheild, a pugulist may well have to reduce damage output in order to increase evasion rates.
#84 Mar 31 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Quote:
I would prefer it if they made it so that every job brought something unique and sought after to the party, but you could still do well without that thing with a little skill tweaking, for instance, say one group gets x amount of exp per hour. They have a dedicated plate wearing "turtle tank". Another group isn't able to get that type of tank because they are more scarce, so they get a Pugilist in that swaps some abilities around to be more tank orientated, but because they still take more damage than the turtle tank, and do more damage as well, the healer has to swap things around to specialise in healing a bit more, and damage less (I realise that most likely, you won't be able to heal and do damage at the same time because of the passive/aggressive thing, but this is just an example) but because the Pugilist does more damage than the turtle tank, that loss from the healers extra dps is made up for and they end up getting the same x amount of experience per hour.


Sorry to be a pedant but FFxiv has no jobs or experience points.
Where did you get the idea that a pugilist will take more damage than a "turtle tank"!? They would take less surely as they would be a type of evasion tank.
Also there is no reason to believe a gladiator in tank mode would do less damage than a pugulist in defensive mode at all, the only diference is that one evades and the other uses heavy armour and a sheild, a pugulist may well have to reduce damage output in order to increase evasion rates.


I'm sorry, but do you understand what speculation is?

Almost everything is speculation at this point. Yes, we realise there are no "Jobs" and experience points. Jobs is just a word, like class, and role. Everything you said regarding gladiators and pugilists is speculation as well.

In most MMORPGs, over time, heavy armor tanks take less spiky, more predictable damage drawn out over a longer period of time, through mitigation. Evasion tanks tend to be more spiky, which is harder on healers. Because their health spikes so much, and they take more damage since they mitigate less when they are hit, it tends to be more dangerous.

Everything being put forth are possible scenarios on how things could be done. No one is saying they "believe" gladiators in tank mode will do less damage than a pugilist in tank mode. Its just a road of thought to go down. A possibility.
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#85 Mar 31 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Default
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I'm sorry, but do you understand what speculation is?

Well there is no need to be patronising, I did freely admit to and appologise for being pedantic right at the start of my post. If you consider your comments to merely be speculation then all I can say is that it is not very well written or thought out.
Hope you don't take it too personally, we all write nonsense occasionally.
#86 Mar 31 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but do you understand what speculation is?

Well there is no need to be patronising, I did freely admit to and appologise for being pedantic right at the start of my post. If you consider your comments to merely be speculation then all I can say is that it is not very well written or thought out.
Hope you don't take it too personally, we all write nonsense occasionally.


Of course we all consider our posts to be "merely speculation". What other point is there to posting between tidbits of information that SE gives out from time to time? The whole "I would like them to do this, because of this" and "for example, it could work like this" part should have clued you in as to what was going on in this thread.

Perhaps you can extrapolate as to how they were not well written or thought out, and I can help you to better understand them.

I used terms like experience points and jobs because they are terms people are familiar with and can more easily relate to than a system that we know is different but haven't been told the actual mechanics of. You can just take out one word and substitute it with another if it makes it easier for you to understand.

Maybe try and read the entirety of the thread, and then try to understand the meanings behind the speculation.
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#87 Mar 31 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Fetter wrote:

My problem with the "bring the player not the class" theory is that it leads to homogenization.


Homogenization was an interesting cookie to crumble when looking at FFXI class system. A great deal of the classes ended up only being different because of access to hand full of spells/abilities. Support jobs exacerbated the situation even further. Classes in FFXI seemed to share allot with each other in some cases even weapon skills. It was interesting how flexible the system ended up being in spite of the games rigid design. The term Hybrid holds far less meaning in FFXI than it does in WoW for example.

I imagine with a skill based system this can only be even more true. A gladiator with access to cure 5 is not impossible by any stretch at this point.

Also Square seemed to balance damage dealers around the idea that everyone can do about the same damage on the high end it just takes varying amounts of effort to pull it off. A warrior could walk over to the AH and become a very good damage dealer with little trouble while a whm, a **** healer, could potential wield a relic K club and be probably just as good for pure dps as any average warrior.. Rdm can solo gods in the game but it was never nerfed simply because the skill needed to do it was insurmountable. But when is the last time you heard of any MMO with class balance like that? Soloing gods would be instant nerfbat regardless of skill for most MMOs!

ok I am rambling now...
TLDR: I'm expecting some pretty flexible class balance in this game with a hefty helping of homogenization just based on my previous experiences in FFXI...

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 7:01pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 7:02pm by thorazinekizzez
#88 Mar 31 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Those are really good points. It's been so long since I really played XI that I often forget about such things. I also must admit that of all the systems, skill based advancement is my weakest point, one I have almost no experience with, and have never up to this point taken the time to look at in detail, because it tends to venture away from certain things that draw me to MMORPGs.



thorazinekizzez wrote:

Also Square seemed to balance damage dealers around the idea that everyone can do about the same damage on the high end it just takes varying amounts of effort to pull it off.


They might have done this eventually, but I seem to remember in the beginning, RNG was the god of damage by a ridiculous degree (It was my main 75. Great damage, but **** expensive with the ammo) and classes like DRG (my favorite, but only got it up to the mid 60s) were practically shunned unless you got invites from friends.
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#89 Mar 31 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Fetter wrote:

They might have done this eventually, but I seem to remember in the beginning, RNG was the god of damage by a ridiculous degree (It was my main 75. Great damage, but **** expensive with the ammo) and classes like DRG (my favorite, but only got it up to the mid 60s) were practically shunned unless you got invites from friends.


rng took the nerf bat in what could easily be the biggest game changing nerf in the history of the game. To this day, I imagine, rng still has the extra burden of paying large sums of gil to only begin to match the damage of most other classes in the game. To pour salt in the wound corsair not only can match the damage of a rng with guns but also provided buffs that are equally as potent as a bards. Albeit cor is even more expensive than rng was back in the day but man are they are desired class let me tell you.

SE later updated 2 hand weapon wielders with a massive accuracy and damage bonus. Merely equipping a 2 hand weapon in FFXI put you at the hit cap for merit mobs. Gear was gravy after that for the most part haste atk or str. People argue now that Sam is the top dps but imho it was anyone with 2 hand weapons. This was what finally killed the ridill warrior..

I parsed all my merit parties. Damage had no clear cut winners anymore when I had left the game. I know that kind of sounds like it contradicts my above points but those above changes actually evened the playing field more than unbalanced them. There were good players and bad ones pretty much....

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 8:36pm by thorazinekizzez
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