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#1 Mar 23 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
8 posts

I've been reading up the classes(however little info there currently is) and going into parties as disciples of Land seems really appealing to me especially the botanist/horticulturist class i figure it'll be a mix of magic + healing in combat without the usual stand still and pew pew till dead since we have to run around digging for stuff in combat.

Really hope SE does a good job in incorporating disciples of land and hand into battles instead of just the passive gold bonus in the case of miners(Gotta admit, rock throwing does'nt exactly sound exciting unless we get to go like "pebble of the fire pheonix GO~" etc).
#2 Mar 23 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
132 posts
Actually I see DoH as more of a buff/debuff type category with the ability to help maintain party tempo through sharing of resources and items. As in fix armour/weapons and create items for usage all while being useful in a battle but only to an extent. Same as DoL but they gather rather than do is all.
#3 Mar 23 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
736 posts

I think it's important to remember, the disciplines of the hand and land are touted as crafters/gatherers first, fighters second. It's alright to entertain the extents of the notion, but, try not to set yourself up for disappointment in the process.

That rock throwing might end up being kind of nice, seeing as how throwing rocks is a skill in the Archer repertoire as well (website). But the 'debuff vs. mineral-based mobs' kind of speaks to a set of abilities that could be situational to the point of novelty.

I imagine you'll have just enough effect on a battle to justify your existence, but not really turn the tide.

#4 Mar 23 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
8 posts
You're absolutely right zem. i guess that's why they didnt include DoL and DoHs in the range picture they provided to explain to us the battle positions(although this may just be due to them not wanting to disclose too much info on the DoLs/DoHs).

Pretty sad though cause this means DoLs and DoHs will probably get sidelined to a corner in terms of higher end content but i figure all disciples will get enough combat capabilities to at least fend for themselves when farming mobs/nodes.

@feyted, i cant really see the use of item sharing in a combat situation less to say an archer went in with 2 arrows and u had to pass some to him.
#5 Mar 24 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
132 posts
Item sharing in the sense that a blacksmith can use a miner's resources that may be collected via an ability to provide defensive buffs on the party. May just be a temp collected item.
#6 Mar 24 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
8 posts
Ah that sounds logical but i doubt it'll be so because this makes 2 classes overdependant on each other meaning u need them in pairs else they dont work.
#7 Mar 24 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
181 posts
I have a question, if you are a pugilist, could you become a botanist?
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#8 Mar 24 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
8 posts
From what i gather so far you can just equipt like a different weapon and become a botanist the same way u change combat classes.
#9 Mar 24 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
107 posts
I really doubt that the DoH and DoL will have many roles in actual combat. I'm basing this off of other MMOs with crafting classes.

If anything I imagine it will be more like a group of fighters and mages will group up with some crafters/gatherers and escort them. The combat classes will help them get to the more dangerous areas where the materials are better. The payoff for the fighters would be first dibs on gear and weapons made for some of the hard to get to materials, and the bonuses to drops from having crafters in the pt.

Again, I'm basing this off of what I know from games with dedicated noncombat crafting classes like old school Star Wars Galaxies (PreCU). My guild had a pretty good set up with our crafters and harvesters. Our rangers and scouts gathered animal hides and bone materials from tough mobs, and our heavy combat classes escorted our harvesters to the dangerous remote places they had their mining operations set up (which contained the best materials) . In return the escort parties and creature harvesters got first dibs on the crafted items.

I can see it now: players in a city's gathering area shouting for a guide or an escort so they can get to a rare ore vein or gather some plant life in a mob infested area.

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#10 Mar 24 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
8 posts
Wow, mercenary business sounds like something really cool. Also, this makes it harder for RMT to benefit i guess since multiple people are needed and hence they'll end up needing to go in groups and hence dropping productivity.

Been reading some interviews and saw this quote from the famitsu post on ZAM,
" These classes will have very limited battle-related abilities, but may receive other things to compensate. For example, a Blacksmith may get an ability that enfeebles a gold-based enemy or one that increases the chances of having treasure drop. "

Seems pretty definitive that gathering classes wont be seeing much action in battle, that's gonna gimp the DoHs and DoLs pretty bad when it comes to high end dungeons or raids due to min/maxing issues plus sideline each of the classes to specific encounters.
#11 Mar 24 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
736 posts
Hopefully, the idea will be that you can't get all the valuables from an endgame encounter without them.

Like, Behemoth may drop behemoth skin, but if you have a tanner along he can flay the corpse and guarantee it.
Or, The Big bad just so happens to be squatting on one of the rare Adamantium ore mining points, and if your going to go to all the trouble of killing it, you may as well grab that too.

Circumstances can be created so that the desire to min/max works in the DoL/DoH's favor, instead of against.

Whether or not that ends up causing some serious selectional sidelining depends on how they go with the endgame encounters. It's easier to fit in things that relate to a multitude of professions in a sprawling dungeon (Ulduar) than it is a single lonely boss encounter(BCNM).

Even with all of the above, there is a strong likelihood some classes would probably be collectively deemed by the playerbase as 'useless' for certain places. Although career crafters rarely stick to one profession, thereby increasing their chances to be applicable to more endgame encounters. In a general sense, that's probably just the downside of pursuing the quiet life of the crafter.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:46pm by Zemzelette
#12 Mar 24 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
3,416 posts
You know, I would think that if you took a crafting or gathering class as your primary profession, you wouldn't really care about fighting that much in the first place. Because crafting and not combat will be how these classes will progress in the game, it doesn't really matter if they're invited to the battles or not. The same goes for endgame events- I'd say it's logical that crafting classes would have their own "endgame" as opposed to combat classes. If their primary progression is via crafting, it wouldn't make sense that at the level cap they'd suddenly have to engage in combat situations.

However, were there some tasks that require cooperation from both disciples, SE would add some kind of incentive for gatherers to be useful in fighting situations, even if they were in the dungeon for solely gathering purposes. It doesn't matter if the "enfeeble" will work on only one kind of enemy type, if that's the enemy type the class is going to encounter in the dungeons he wants to go. If he's useless in some other dungeon, so what? He doesn't need anything there, and does not have to engage in fighting against monsters there.

I think you're all bit stuck on the way XI did it's crafting (a minigame within a game, nothing more) and you should probably start thinking it the way games like pre-NGE SWG did it's "endgame". The disciples kind of share the same ideas as that game, imo at least. "Endgame" is not simply a series of combat situations, and all professions have their own way to progress even further past the level cap. XI's crafting was way inferior to combat, and the endgame reflected that. But it's not necessarily like that in XIV, based on what we know.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 4:46pm by Hyanmen
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#13 Mar 24 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
549 posts
For endgame, I was thinking that it would be cool for some bosses to have crystals around them that could give them strengths and advantages and the miners would have the ability to mine them so that the boss loses those strengths and advantages.

Or have a boss where part of him is the ground and walls and have it so miners could target mining points that are part of the boss severely weakening it or doing damage to it.
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#14 Mar 24 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
1,457 posts
throwing rocks

nice one SE..
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#15 Mar 25 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
40 posts
Zemzelette wrote:

But the 'debuff vs. mineral-based mobs' kind of speaks to a set of abilities that could be situational to the point of novelty.

I just took another glance at the FFXIV page and it sounded to me like they meant you use mineral based stuff to debuff mobs, not that the debuffs only worked on mineral based mobs.

Then again the wording is vague and this is SE so we could both be wrong and they could mean anything.
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#17 Mar 25 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
41 posts
Thanks tdanny,

That's exactly what I'm thinking is going to be the case and was going to explain it but you beat me too it :)

You level your Class by doing the things your class is meant to do.

I don't think it will be a case of seeing DoH, DoL classes in parties but rather you will see people who have leveled DoH and DoL classes in your party using a Combat class who then switch to a Crafting Class when there are opportunities to use said class.

Lancer who's leveled Miner is in your party, may have acquired the ability "Treasure Hunter" and is using it so that everyone obtains more loot. You're fighting your way through a hard dungeon or cave and you come across a rare ore node and the Lancer switches to his/her Miner class to mine the node.

Same could be said for Blacksmithing, lets say the parties Gladiator has his shield break. Someone switches to their Blacksmith Job and fixes it for them. I think it could also be possible that by leveling Blacksmith you learn an ability that reduces the amount of durability damage your party takes during combat and you would use that ability when you're paying your combat job. (Don't quote me, it's just an idea)

There are a whole tone of opportunities to incorporate DoH and DoL classes into the main gameplay. Things like needing a Miner to gain access to a special area (He picks through a caved in entrance) or a Trapper who traps a special monster which the party then kills. Again don't quote, just ideas. But I think these ideas are in line with what could happen.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 12:38pm by Xebius
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#18 Mar 25 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
264 posts
I agree with the last two posters for the most part, if not necessarily the specifics. But I think they are on the right track. However, I do believe that there will be some escort like situations for certain DoH/DoL guildleves. Now, my feeling is that most crafters and gatherers will have at least one combat class, so who is to say they cant be a Lancer all the way to the place they need to reach. They might only be required to be their DoL or DoH classes to accept the guildleve and when they reach the node/goal. As for the small amount of players that have the "DoL/DoH onry" mentality, they will more than likely have to have an escort for any of the more dangerous DoL/DoH guildleves. And make no mistake, their will be players (very small percentage)that will only craft and gather. However, SE said they would have options available to them to cap out their classes without ever entering combat, if I remember correctly. So it will be up to this type of player how they want to progress: safely and independently or with a bit of adventure but being more dependent on the combat classes. So I really don't think they will ever have to enter combat or even endgame, if they do not desire to do so.

As for endgame, I see it as the two previous posters stated. And I will also predict endgame "linkshells" will probably have a policy that every DoW and DoM class have at least one type of DoL or DoH class. I see this as being the normal standard to make groups diverse enough to handle specific endgame situations. Of course this prediction is very dependnet on just how effective/mandatory the DoH/DoL abilities are in endgame situations. But with things like Treasure Hunter and armor/weapon repairs, and other useful things; I would be very suprised if "Linkshell" leaders did not practically demand it form their members. As I always say though, until we know more its all just speculation.
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