Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Death Penalty?Follow

#1 Mar 23 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
*
85 posts
How cruel would the death penalty be like?

Do we level up our skills by distributing the merit(exp) point to each skill just like in FFXI after lv75? or rather each skill get experience and level up by itself? (just like FFX Guardian Force?)

First case, the death penalty wouldn't be really that bad since we already experienced from FFXI. We just have to restore the lost merit(exp) point.

However, it would be somewhat annoying for second case because we have to work on individual skill. In FFXI, we killed ourself multiple times to skill up Evasion and Block. We wouldn't be able to do it at FFXIV.
#2 Mar 23 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
Sometimes I think it would be interesting if there were a server that had a hardcore death penalty like in Diablo II. Once you die, that's it, you're gone.

I would never be crazy enough to play it but I think it would be fun to see.
#3 Mar 23 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Excellent
******
48,711 posts
hexid wrote:
In FFXI, we killed ourself multiple times to skill up Evasion
We did?
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#4 Mar 23 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
*
85 posts
Quote:
We did?


I recall people use to go to <<The Boyahda Tree>> and use Genbu Shield&Reraise and aggro <<Boyahda Sapling>> to skill up Block and Evasion. I remember people use to upload their video of this.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:02am by hexid
#5 Mar 23 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Yes it's true there were a lot of complete retards in FFXI.

Still are.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#6 Mar 23 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
802 posts
hexid wrote:
Quote:
We did?


................. Block ...................

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:02am by hexid


Great you reminded me on how I delevel my Mnk last time (-_-lll
____________________________


#7Lovestospoon, Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 10:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lmao u would die to raise block? hahahha im srry u wasted ur time, and for the other one that mention diablo II hardcore, so glad ur not a developer.
#8 Mar 23 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
Lovestospoon wrote:
and for the other one that mention diablo II hardcore, so glad ur not a developer.


Not only did I merely say I "sometimes think it would be interesting" but I also said only one server would be hardcore and that I would not be crazy enough to be on that server. I don't ever like playing in hardcore mode and I think it would be the worst idea ever if the whole game was like that but I like giving people options. Unlike some people who seem to think that because they don't like the idea it's a bad idea and nobody should ever do it because they say so.
#9 Mar 23 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
350 posts
Hardcore mode:

If you die, you're dead for 3 days real time. During those 3 days you'll be in the **** dimension and you cant do anything except watch your body burn.

I think the 3 days would be a good break to help reflect on why you died, and allow people to do other things with their time in real life. Of course that wont actually work because people will create multiple characters and alternate between them.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2010 11:34pm by Cyiode
#10 Mar 23 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
The death penalty in FFXI wasn't severe enough. When you die in FFXIV the game should delete your character, cancel your account, and post your credit card information on a public board. That'll teach you to have a power outage.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:41am by Allegory
#11 Mar 24 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
*
145 posts
Quote:
The death penalty in FFXI wasn't severe enough. When you die in FFXIV the game should delete your character, cancel your account, and post your credit card information on a public board. That'll teach you to have a power outage.


It really would! All in favor?!?
#12 Mar 24 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
The death penalty in FFXI wasn't severe enough


So true, when you die in FFXIV it should die in real life. You can't get more hardcore then that.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:41pm by Pseudopsia
____________________________
WoW Pkite Blood Elf 80 Retribution Paladin Active
FFXI Yakumo Tarutaru 75 Black Mage Retired
Aion Pkite Elyos 43 Gladiator Retired
#13 Mar 24 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
I don't mind the xp loss system, but deleveling just made it unnessesarily annoying, since at 75 you ended up with a lot of level 75 gear, meaning that deleveling to 74 meant you had to xp naked or somehow come up with some old gear you had laying around to get the level back.

And since they have said that it's going to be skill based, not level based, I'm not sure how losing xp will fit into a game that may not have xp in the traditional sense at all.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#14 Mar 24 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
The basic premise of a death penalty is lost time. In that respect even in WoW the time it takes me to earn X gold is subtracted from me when I die.

With that said even simply having to run back to my body is punishment enough. Harsh death penalty is when I lose more than 15 minutes of my time because my net connection dropped for 30 seconds. It doesn't take much to make me care about not dieing and enough time is usually lost in the act of getting myself back to where I was when I died in the first place.

Porting me to a grave yard or home point on death with no raise is plenty imo.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 6:14pm by thorazinekizzez
#15 Mar 24 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
*
84 posts
I never did like the experience death penalty for the reason that some groups did not take enough risks due to the experience loss that would come form death, thus making the game a bit less fun for those types of people.

I believe people will find new and exciting ways of doing the same old things if the threat of deleveling and time wasted is taken out of the picture.
____________________________
(75NIN)(72THF)(75SAM)(63DRG)(57WAR)(42PLD)(57 blm)(36cor)(50RNG)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/Lildynamite/sig-stupifyed02.jpg

#16 Mar 24 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
8,779 posts
money. thats all. some of your gear loses durability (or even breaks maybe) and thats it.

losing xp? no thanks. id rather not have to play more just because a party member failed at tanking or healing or dpsing. my life is busy enough as it is, and id rather not have an MMO with "chores" in it.
____________________________
Quote:
The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#17 Mar 24 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
253 posts
Ha. Whenever you die, they should make people pay $20 for a raise or they'll delete your character in 24 hours.
____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#18 Mar 24 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Overly harsh penalties are bad because they heavily discourage people from trying new things or venturing too far out of a "safe zone".

Overly weak penalties are bad because they have severely negative ramifications in scenarios where people will just endlessly lemming zerg something since there's no real downside.

I definitely think FFXIV needs to keep the XI quality that you can raise mid-battle though. One thing I really disliked about WoW was the lack of mid battle raises excluding b-res.

If anything, I feel that mid-battle death and recovery should be part of boss strategies, but if the penalties for these deaths are too harsh, this would obviously get really unpopular, really fast.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#19 Mar 24 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Overly weak penalties are bad because they have severely negative ramifications in scenarios where people will just endlessly lemming zerg something since there's no real downside.


This is a common concern, but there are lots of ways to prevent this through the game mechanics without death penalties, even if you want to keep a raise mechanic. For example, prevent out of party raises and have a high MP cost to raise.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Mar 24 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
784 posts
Stupifyed wrote:
I never did like the experience death penalty for the reason that some groups did not take enough risks due to the experience loss that would come form death, thus making the game a bit less fun for those types of people.

I believe people will find new and exciting ways of doing the same old things if the threat of deleveling and time wasted is taken out of the picture.


You also have to worry about the opposite side of the coin.

If there are no penalties for death, then there is no taking risks, because there is no "risk". Going into that super dangerous area is no longer risky, because if you die, then so what? Just keep plowing mindlessly through until you finally get there.

You don't get that feeling of excitement while trying something "risky" if nothing bad happens when you fail.
____________________________
Amazing linkshell/guild hosting

#21 Mar 24 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,089 posts
Well we don't know the way we'll be progressing yet, so it's hard to say "xp penalty". There will be some form of penalty, and there should be.
#22 Mar 24 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
****
6,470 posts
In FFXIV, when you die, your doorbell rings. When you open it, Hiromichi Tanaka steps inside, picks up your laptop, and breaks it over his knee. Then he gives you a long stare-down, and walks out without saying anything.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 10:18pm by Eske
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#23 Mar 24 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
6,470 posts
Double post

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 10:18pm by Eske
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#24 Mar 24 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
You don't get that feeling of excitement while trying something "risky" if nothing bad happens when you fail.


Losing and failing ARE bad. Hundreds of thousands of sporting events at which the only thing at stake were the abstracts of victory and defeat have proven this throughout history.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#25 Mar 24 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
6,470 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
You don't get that feeling of excitement while trying something "risky" if nothing bad happens when you fail.


Losing and failing ARE bad. Hundreds of thousands of sporting events at which the only thing at stake were the abstracts of victory and defeat have proven this throughout history.


IIRC, we debated this once before. I felt that there was some merit to the belief that you got a bigger adrenaline rush from the increased risk of some form of death penalty.

Now, I'm not talking about anything major. The "penalty" could even be considered the loss of exp'ing time that comes from waiting to be raised and having the sickness wear off, for example.
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#26 Mar 25 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
****
8,779 posts
Quote:
If there are no penalties for death, then there is no taking risks, because there is no "risk". Going into that super dangerous area is no longer risky, because if you die, then so what? Just keep plowing mindlessly through until you finally get there.

You don't get that feeling of excitement while trying something "risky" if nothing bad happens when you fail.


the best way ive seen to combat that came from WoW, with the rez timer. if you die twice in quick succession, no biggie, soon as you get back to your corpse (or are rezzed) you can pop right up again.

but if you die a third time, you have a timer before you can rez back to life. same with a fourth, only its longer. i believe the timer got up to five minutes, which may not seem like a lot, but when a person dies and is forced to wait five minutes literally doing nothing (instead of playing their game) before they die...well, it can be quite the deterrent. between the potential lost play time (which sucks enough) to the social pressure ("if you keep dying we'll just find another person to fill your spot") its simple and it works.

the timer wouldnt just "go away" either. it would slowly decrease, so that, on average, you had to wait about a half an hour (iirc) after hitting the five minute timer before you would be able to rez without waiting out a timer. this is on top of durability loss (which costs money to repair, and can result in "broken" gear, that no longer functions but can still be repaired to full functionality).
____________________________
Quote:
The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#27 Mar 25 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
IIRC, we debated this once before. I felt that there was some merit to the belief that you got a bigger adrenaline rush from the increased risk of some form of death penalty.

Now, I'm not talking about anything major. The "penalty" could even be considered the loss of exp'ing time that comes from waiting to be raised and having the sickness wear off, for example.


You do get an adrenaline rush from the loss aversion, but you also begin to evade the risks that cause the loss aversion in the first place. This is one of the few places where risk:reward actually does come into practice-- people then don't take risks that aren't justified by the rewards.

At the same time, the same adrenaline rush can be had without punishments (though if you're really an adrenaline junky, video games are really not the best way to get your fix). The biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had were from the anticipation that came from being on the verge of FINALLY overcoming that difficult challenge, but victory not being assured-- knowing that if I failed I'd have to start over, and miss what might be a rare chance for a win.

Reward anticipation and loss aversion are two sides to the same coin. The former carries much happier connotations and acknowledges that failure itself is the loss aversion.

*We probably did discuss this before, but I generally don't look at who I'm talking to.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 12:48am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Mar 25 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
41 posts
I honestly do think FFXI had the death penalty right, and my only complaint was the possibility of de-leveling. EXP translated to time spent very well where as Durability/Gold is less of a time based factor and looses it's sting the more you play the game and the more funds you accumulate. This was the case with WoW.

However if you make repairing your gear less accessible and more costly then it becomes more of a bad thing/
I doubt it will be as easy as having a Blacksmith/Leatherworker/Clothier repair your gear for a couple gold pieces. There will be materials involved and those materials may not be as easy to acquire as buying them from a vendors (except maybe for low level gear). They did mention NPC's that would repair your gear, but what if those NPC's only exsisted in the main cities and not at the various leveling hubs throughout the world. This would put more importance on having people with crafting jobs locate themselves in those areas, so a party who's gear is in need of repair would have to come back to the hub in order to continue leveling. Either that or take someone with a DoH job with them on the trip, but what if that crafter couldn't repair gear in the wilds and needed tools only available at the hub? If this is the case then dieing may end up being a bad thing after all if durability is reduced rather quickly (1/3 every death?) and it becomes a time sink.

I think having a raise sickness was also a good idea, I hope to see it return.

People need to learn how to play the game, and if death is a good penalty for playing the game badly then people learn how to not die fairly quick. (Which I lament is the reason I hated Power levelers in FFXI, to many people got an easy ride and when it came time to do the real game play failed because they hadn't learned the basics in the beginning)



Edited, Mar 25th 2010 1:33pm by Xebius
____________________________
Yes I'm a bit of a jerk, but a rational jerk.
#29 Mar 25 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
Prettier Than You
*****
12,966 posts
I like the durability system a lot more than the xp loss system.

I mean, losing xp was really no big deal at all, especially once you resigned to the fact that it happened. (Level Beastmaster to 75 and you really just become numb to the pain.) But in WoW, having large repair bills sucks EVERY time. I think it's the visual of "Oh **** that was like 120 gold..." that really does it for me.

Not to mention durability and repairs plays into economics a lot more than xp loss ever could, which I think is a more important factor in making a good game than almost anything else.
____________________________
Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#30 Mar 25 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
784 posts
Kachi wrote:
Losing and failing ARE bad. Hundreds of thousands of sporting events at which the only thing at stake were the abstracts of victory and defeat have proven this throughout history.


Kachi wrote:
Quote:
IIRC, we debated this once before. I felt that there was some merit to the belief that you got a bigger adrenaline rush from the increased risk of some form of death penalty.

Now, I'm not talking about anything major. The "penalty" could even be considered the loss of exp'ing time that comes from waiting to be raised and having the sickness wear off, for example.


You do get an adrenaline rush from the loss aversion, but you also begin to evade the risks that cause the loss aversion in the first place. This is one of the few places where risk:reward actually does come into practice-- people then don't take risks that aren't justified by the rewards.

At the same time, the same adrenaline rush can be had without punishments (though if you're really an adrenaline junky, video games are really not the best way to get your fix). The biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had were from the anticipation that came from being on the verge of FINALLY overcoming that difficult challenge, but victory not being assured-- knowing that if I failed I'd have to start over, and miss what might be a rare chance for a win.

Reward anticipation and loss aversion are two sides to the same coin. The former carries much happier connotations and acknowledges that failure itself is the loss aversion.

*We probably did discuss this before, but I generally don't look at who I'm talking to.

Edited, Mar 25th 2010 12:48am by Kachi


First, you are comparing two similar but slightly different things. If the goal of the game were to win by going into that dangerous area, then yes, it would be comparable to the sporting events you are using in your example. Unfortunately this isn't the case, or at least, it isn't the case for a very large part of the player base, if not most of them. Going into that dangerous risky area is just a small part of the game. Personally, I don't get that "zingy" feeling of excitement and adrenaline if I never have to worry about death because all it means is a quick run back from a graveyard, or a wait for a rez, etc. To be perfectly honest, boredom more than anything makes me avoid things in games. I would be more likely to avoid doing "risky" things if the penalty was massive boredom, instead of loss (i.e. boredom coming from waiting to be rezzed for long periods of time {think Dunes way back near NA release, where you had to have a friend yell out for rezzes and pray a high level person would be passing by and take pity on you}).

Also I, and many others (I would go so far to say a fairly large percentage of players) don't get the biggest rush out of a victory where there is no risk. You don't have to be an "adrenaline junky" for this to be true for you.

I always loved running through dangerous areas when I played FFXI, knowing that if I messed up, I would agro something and be killed. It gave me that tingly feeling of excitement. And it was more accessible than your example, because after all, how often do you get that feeling of "The biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had were from the anticipation that came from being on the verge of FINALLY overcoming that difficult challenge, but victory not being assured-- knowing that if I failed I'd have to start over, and miss what might be a rare chance for a win."?

How often were you faced with this type of challenge? Once a day? Once a week? I could get that feeling any time I wanted, as often as I wanted, just by exploring or passing through an area full of things that could and would kill me if they agro'd.

____________________________
Amazing linkshell/guild hosting

#31 Mar 25 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
784 posts
Zackary wrote:
I like the durability system a lot more than the xp loss system.

I mean, losing xp was really no big deal at all, especially once you resigned to the fact that it happened. (Level Beastmaster to 75 and you really just become numb to the pain.) But in WoW, having large repair bills sucks EVERY time. I think it's the visual of "Oh @#%^ that was like 120 gold..." that really does it for me.

Not to mention durability and repairs plays into economics a lot more than xp loss ever could, which I think is a more important factor in making a good game than almost anything else.


This is tricky because it works well for some players and is meaningless for others. For example in WoW, I don't care about repair bills. I'm a tank, its part of life. I also have more gold than I know what to do with. Death is meaningless, because the only real penalty to me is running back or rez sickness, thus, I avoid dying because of the boredom. I get no feeling of excitement though.
____________________________
Amazing linkshell/guild hosting

#32 Mar 25 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Also I, and many others (I would go so far to say a fairly large percentage of players) don't get the biggest rush out of a victory where there is no risk.

I always loved running through dangerous areas when I played FFXI, knowing that if I messed up, I would agro something and be killed. It gave me that tingly feeling of excitement. And it was more accessible than your example, because after all, how often do you get that feeling of "The biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had were from the anticipation that came from being on the verge of FINALLY overcoming that difficult challenge, but victory not being assured-- knowing that if I failed I'd have to start over, and miss what might be a rare chance for a win."?

How often were you faced with this type of challenge? Once a day? Once a week? I could get that feeling any time I wanted, as often as I wanted, just by exploring or passing through an area full of things that could and would kill me if they agro'd.


Are you talking about FFXI? It sounds like you are. XI is a poor example because there are VERY few examples of this. This is because XI is badly designed, and almost never even presents the kind of opportunities I'm talking about (lol).

For starters, "victory" in XI is -usually- about drops, not killing the monster. People aren't usually after titles, or completing a quest/mission requirement. They're after loot, which is far from guaranteed even if you win. That's an immediate problem-- so easy to win and feel like you lost. But let's assume that everything was 100% drop, for the sake of my point.

It's very rare that you're in a "close" battle. There are few mobs in the game that you'll actually face knowing that the odds of victory are truly risky (most are instanced battles). Part of the reason for that is because people really don't want to die so they don't take those risks, but part of it is because a lot of the mobs that DO have good loot are not really that difficult.

So if you're asking how often I was faced with that type of challenge in FFXI, very rarely, bordering on never, and likewise I very rarely had any rush of adrenaline. In other games, a few times a day. And for that reason, I really hope that XIV is designed much better than XI.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#33 Mar 25 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
784 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Also I, and many others (I would go so far to say a fairly large percentage of players) don't get the biggest rush out of a victory where there is no risk.

I always loved running through dangerous areas when I played FFXI, knowing that if I messed up, I would agro something and be killed. It gave me that tingly feeling of excitement. And it was more accessible than your example, because after all, how often do you get that feeling of "The biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had were from the anticipation that came from being on the verge of FINALLY overcoming that difficult challenge, but victory not being assured-- knowing that if I failed I'd have to start over, and miss what might be a rare chance for a win."?

How often were you faced with this type of challenge? Once a day? Once a week? I could get that feeling any time I wanted, as often as I wanted, just by exploring or passing through an area full of things that could and would kill me if they agro'd.


Are you talking about FFXI? It sounds like you are. XI is a poor example because there are VERY few examples of this. This is because XI is badly designed, and almost never even presents the kind of opportunities I'm talking about (lol).

For starters, "victory" in XI is -usually- about drops, not killing the monster. People aren't usually after titles, or completing a quest/mission requirement. They're after loot, which is far from guaranteed even if you win. That's an immediate problem-- so easy to win and feel like you lost. But let's assume that everything was 100% drop, for the sake of my point.

It's very rare that you're in a "close" battle. There are few mobs in the game that you'll actually face knowing that the odds of victory are truly risky (most are instanced battles). Part of the reason for that is because people really don't want to die so they don't take those risks, but part of it is because a lot of the mobs that DO have good loot are not really that difficult.

So if you're asking how often I was faced with that type of challenge in FFXI, very rarely, bordering on never, and likewise I very rarely had any rush of adrenaline. In other games, a few times a day. And for that reason, I really hope that XIV is designed much better than XI.


Well of course I was talking about in FFXI, which is why I specifically referred to it in my post, which you also quoted.

And yes, that is my point. In FFXI, you rarely had that "victory rush" that you described. If no excitement from that source, you must find it elsewhere, no? Otherwise, you have no excitement in the game. Why play a game that you are just "meh" about?

And FFXI is the closest thing we have to run comparisons off of, and make guesses, which is what 99% of the posts on all FFXIV forums are at the moment, guesses. Speculation.

Edit to add: I actually have trouble coming up with examples of situations that match your criteria. Most MMORPGs don't take an inordinate amount of personal skill PvE wise. The hardest part about them most often tends to be finding x amount of people that can actually take direction/work together/pay attention/think. The mechanics themselves tend to be more on the simple side.



Edited, Mar 26th 2010 3:53am by Fetter
____________________________
Amazing linkshell/guild hosting

#34 Mar 25 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
Prettier Than You
*****
12,966 posts
Fetter wrote:
Zackary wrote:
I like the durability system a lot more than the xp loss system.

I mean, losing xp was really no big deal at all, especially once you resigned to the fact that it happened. (Level Beastmaster to 75 and you really just become numb to the pain.) But in WoW, having large repair bills sucks EVERY time. I think it's the visual of "Oh @#%^ that was like 120 gold..." that really does it for me.

Not to mention durability and repairs plays into economics a lot more than xp loss ever could, which I think is a more important factor in making a good game than almost anything else.


This is tricky because it works well for some players and is meaningless for others. For example in WoW, I don't care about repair bills. I'm a tank, its part of life. I also have more gold than I know what to do with. Death is meaningless, because the only real penalty to me is running back or rez sickness, thus, I avoid dying because of the boredom. I get no feeling of excitement though.
I guess it was different for me because all I ever logged in to do was play arena, which meant I had very little gold and no real motivation/reason to go out and farm it aside from repairs. :\
____________________________
Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#35 Mar 25 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
And yes, that is my point. In FFXI, you rarely had that "victory rush" that you described. If no excitement from that source, you must find it elsewhere, no? Otherwise, you have no excitement in the game. Why play a game that you are just "meh" about?

And FFXI is the closest thing we have to run comparisons off of, and make guesses, which is what 99% of the posts on all FFXIV forums are at the moment, guesses. Speculation.

Edit to add: I actually have trouble coming up with examples of situations that match your criteria. Most MMORPGs don't take an inordinate amount of personal skill PvE wise. The hardest part about them most often tends to be finding x amount of people that can actually take direction/work together/pay attention/think. The mechanics themselves tend to be more on the simple side.


Well, yeah. That's kind of my point. FFXI is fraught with gameplay flaws, and severely lacks technical depth for a game that one would play for a number of years, rather than months. Generally there isn't really much that you can do as an individual to turn the tide of a battle, and that's very problematic. The exceptions to that being things that are largely planned out and don't require you to think on your feet, which again is a problem.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Mar 26 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
*
134 posts
Allegory wrote:
The death penalty in FFXI wasn't severe enough. When you die in FFXIV the game should delete your character, cancel your account, and post your credit card information on a public board. That'll teach you to have a power outage.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 12:41am by Allegory


Too bad you never die in FFXI. You get knocked out.
#37 Mar 30 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
8 posts
Now as an avid BST i learnt the hard way about death in FFXI. The delevelling was a huge turn off from the game, the first time it happened i thought it was a joke! but then the more you play the more accustomed to the way SE do things sprung out and I had just got to adjust.
From what a previous post said this did mean that i took less risks then what i would have liked but that is a good thing as it made me think about my play style without rushing in like i did on WoW where i would just run into a grp without worrying about any consequence. Now I am not complaining about WoW's way of doing it as it worked i hope FFXIV find a way to get it to work just as well.
If any of you have played CoH/CoV they had exp debt which I feel is a good concept.
Anyway i dont wanna ramble nemore so hf while we w8 for some more droplets of info ;)
-Klick-
____________________________
---------------------------------------------------
Wow
Klick Troll Rogue 80 *Burning Steppes*
Alendra Tauren Shaman 80 *Burning Steppes*
Kenzer Undead Lock 80 *Burning Steppes*
FFXI
Klick - Ragnarak *RETIRED*
75BST/75THF/50WAR/50MNK/75WHT
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (15)