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Phoenix Down Would Be SweetFollow

#1 Mar 28 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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With all due respect to all the raises I've gotten over the years, I always thought it'd be pretty awesome if getting back into the action isn't limited to a raising class (who generally has their hands full if I'm dead to start with) or I anticipate my death via some form of reraise. Oh, and it'd be nice not to be gimped too hard when I'm coming back for Round 2.

After playing through XIII, I've become more of an advocate of dying being a more frequent occurrence so long as it's balanced by an easier form to get up from the dirt nap. The death penalty in such a scenario would be a balancing issue but nothing that hasn't been debated to the death and exhausted mainstream creativity in other MMOs (I'd personally like the route where xp penalty restoration and being alive to fight again are two independent components when it comes to 'raising', to not de-value a xp restoring raise mechanism versus over-abundance of reviving options, but hey, I'm just one voice).

Lastly, if 'Phoenix Down' was to exist and dying does happen frequently... not too expensive, please! :)

#2 Mar 28 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm that would be interesting. More so I guess for if heals is down. Just to cut down on down time. But I guess for me it would really depend on what kinda death pen we are looking at. I really hope they stick to something that is kinda stiff and have it to were dieing is something you wanna avoid. Like how FFXI is vs how say wow is.
#3 Mar 28 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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I think that's a good idea.
Except it sounds like your vying for something inside of battle, and I think the zombie-tactic potential there is downright game-breaking. Out of battle, however...


#4 Mar 28 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah out of battle would be good, would mean small groups could go without a raising class if they wanted. More importantly I hope potions are a lot more viable. They're way too weak and waaaaay too expensive in FFXI. In WoW they were pretty cheap. Yeah people started abusing them, but then they just put a limit of 1 a fight. So it's there for emergencies but you can't chain-chug em.
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#5 Mar 29 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Default
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I think it'd be cool if Phoenix down was "rare/ex" and it's probability of dropping depended on the level difference between you and the mob (higher level the mob is, the more likely you are to get it). Try to make it proportional so that for every one or two deaths, you're likely to get 1 phoenix down. This way people can't just buy a ton of them so every time the party dies they can just spam them and powerlevel.

I don't know if that made sense to you, but I thought it was a good idea. Thanks for bringing up the idea of phoenix down.
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#6 Mar 29 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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No need for it to be "ex", but "rare" would be just fine to allow 1 PD per member and avoid abuse.

Also agree for better potions, particularly ones that stacked and doesn't give a medicated status along with it. Having no weakness upon revival would make the OP's idea rather grand imo.
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#7 Mar 29 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Haha...yea It would be swell to have something other than specific jobs to help raise comrades, I do not think it would hurt. They'll have something though for sure.
#8 Mar 29 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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I've been wishing for phoenix downs since my newbie days in XI.
#9 Mar 29 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Watch them have Phoenix Downs this time. However, we will have to earn everyone with a form of CQ points of...who knows. xD Also perhaps medicinal items in general will be a negotiable price in NPC shops..alot other things for that matter>.>;

Edited, Mar 29th 2010 3:07pm by AshtionFFXIV
#10 Mar 29 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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What I think may be a good idea for Phoenix Downs if SE puts them is to have them sometimes drop from monsters, but they wouldn't be as common. To make it more special you wouldn't be able to craft, buy, or sell them. Then during maybe some tough event 1 lucky person has 2 of them so the party is a little more relieved that all the pressure isn't on the only raiser job.
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#11 Mar 29 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Watch them have Phoenix Downs this time. However, we will have to earn everyone with a form of CQ points of...who knows


Would be better than a reraise scroll, well unless you are soloing.
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#12 Mar 29 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm that would be interesting. More so I guess for if heals is down.


I can see this ending up just as prisms/oils did.

Player1: Dude use your phoenix down.
Player2: I didn't bring one.
Player1: What?! WTF is wrong with you?
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#13 Mar 29 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Why not just make Pheonix Downs have a longer weakness period, and make them a common replacement to casting Raise. I always thought Raise should have different effects in and out of combat. In combat a weakness period is necessary to prevent zombie tactics. But outside of combat, why have a weakness period? It's just time spent not playing the game.
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#14 Mar 30 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with Phoenix Downs (as opposed to reraise scrolls) is that you're spending YOUR money for an item that will almost certainly be used for someone else. Considering how hard it was sometimes to get people to buy food to benefit their OWN performance in FFXI, I don't see the average person spending money and inventory space on an item that will only end up getting used on someone else.

This isn't to say that I don't think they should be added and affordable; I do believe they should be; I just don't believe that most people would buy them unless they were super cheap to the point of being practically free (say 200 gil a piece in XI).
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#15 Mar 30 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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having the ability to use Potions on other people wouldn't harm anyone either.
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#16 Mar 30 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jim: One pheonix down please
Shop keeper: That'll be 245,000 gil. Will that be cash or charge?
Jim: <gulp>
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#17 Mar 30 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Raiendel wrote:
having the ability to use Potions on other people wouldn't harm anyone either.


Totally agree with this, which then holds the logic that potions should have been more affordable in XI too. And they should have.

WTB Alchemist job :)
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#18 Mar 31 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Make them somewhat cheap yet not too cheap. They should be stackable so you can carry a bunch. Not usable during combat. Sold from NPCs exclusively.

It's not only an economical sinkhole for gil, but it would also encourage the use of them on passerby. Someone sees you dead but is not a raising class? Have them Phoenix Down you, and then simply spot them for the reagent.


I don't mind them, I'd like them to be used for friendly gestures. Not so much as a battle item.
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#19 Mar 31 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be down for some Phoenix Downs, so long as you can't use them in combat. They don't necessarily have to be rare. You could just make it so you can only hold one or two at a time.
#20 Apr 02 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
WTB Alchemist job :)


I'm all for this.. minus the "WTB" WoW terminology.

Perhaps an Alchemist type class could even synth up some temporary x-potions, hi-ethers, phoenix downs, etc.. for their group, if not be able to use them on others. It could even be similar to XII's system where an Alchemist would receive some Potion/Ether/Phoenix Down Lore traits to increase the potency.
#21 Apr 02 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Nothing wrong with WTB.
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#22 Apr 02 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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It's not a WoW term, it's an MMO term. It means "want to buy". It was used long before WoW, though your personal rivalry is noted.
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#23 Apr 02 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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dude, forget MMOs, it is something that is used for the trade of RL items in places like newspapers.
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#24 Apr 02 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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dude, forget MMOs, it is something that is used for the trade of RL items in places like newspapers.


True that.
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#25 Apr 02 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
Make them somewhat cheap yet not too cheap. They should be stackable so you can carry a bunch. Not usable during combat. Sold from NPCs exclusively.

It's not only an economical sinkhole for gil, but it would also encourage the use of them on passerby. Someone sees you dead but is not a raising class? Have them Phoenix Down you, and then simply spot them for the reagent.


I don't mind them, I'd like them to be used for friendly gestures. Not so much as a battle item.


This to me is the most desirable implementation mentioned here yet. Although I'm on the fence with the not usable in combat thing. We all know Phoenix Downs as a combat raise. Perhaps just limit it to 1per fight per 2 minutes* of the effect.

*If the fight lasts longer than 2 minutes it will be usable again after said fight is over. Or make it like unlimited per every 5 minutes.
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#26 Apr 03 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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You don't want everyone on the battlefield capable of an in-combat raise. It just begs for a zerg mentality.
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#27 Apr 04 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Hence the inability to be raised again by it until said battle is done. So if person A dies, person B uses Phoenix Down on person A, person A gets a debuff that lasts either until the battle is over or the 5 minute timer elapses after going into passive mode. Like either start the timer after the battle is over, or let it persist until the battle is done. That way person A can't be PD'd again.
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#28 Apr 04 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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Phoenix Downs usable only in Passive Mode and not in Active Mode and you have an item that's not game breaking.
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#29 Apr 04 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Hence the inability to be raised again by it until said battle is done. So if person A dies, person B uses Phoenix Down on person A, person A gets a debuff that lasts either until the battle is over or the 5 minute timer elapses after going into passive mode. Like either start the timer after the battle is over, or let it persist until the battle is done. That way person A can't be PD'd again.


That still brings up the problem of everyone in the group/alliance being capable of rezzing someone, even if it's just once, regardless of class. An 18 person alliance, with everyone capable of rezzing someone, is still 18 phoenix downs capable of being used. Although if everyone had one used on them at some point, they're clearly doing something wrong, but I think I got the point across.
#30 Apr 04 2010 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of Phoenix downs simply because it would be perfectly fine for raise to act like a battle rez.
It was never fun to me in FFXI that they treated out of combat raise like some special privilege for certain classes. The whole mechanic can die in a fire imo..
#31 Apr 04 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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flukedrk wrote:
Hence the inability to be raised again by it until said battle is done. So if person A dies, person B uses Phoenix Down on person A, person A gets a debuff that lasts either until the battle is over or the 5 minute timer elapses after going into passive mode. Like either start the timer after the battle is over, or let it persist until the battle is done. That way person A can't be PD'd again.
There's still the problem of having death become excusable, which I don't think anyone would agree is the way to go. If you die in WoW, it's cool, you'll probably get a battle res if you're important enough. But if not, sucks to be you, you get to be dead. I don't want this to carry over into 14 in any terms, because it just promotes sloppy work.

There was nothing wrong with the way Raise and Reraise worked in XI, don't fix what isn't broken.
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#32 Apr 04 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
flukedrk wrote:
Hence the inability to be raised again by it until said battle is done. So if person A dies, person B uses Phoenix Down on person A, person A gets a debuff that lasts either until the battle is over or the 5 minute timer elapses after going into passive mode. Like either start the timer after the battle is over, or let it persist until the battle is done. That way person A can't be PD'd again.
There's still the problem of having death become excusable, which I don't think anyone would agree is the way to go. If you die in WoW, it's cool, you'll probably get a battle res if you're important enough. But if not, sucks to be you, you get to be dead. I don't want this to carry over into 14 in any terms, because it just promotes sloppy work.

There was nothing wrong with the way Raise and Reraise worked in XI, don't fix what isn't broken.


Death should be excusable to an extent. Making it come with hefty penalties made the game less fun than it could have been. You didn't want to take risks because of this.
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#33 Apr 04 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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In a game that is supposed to be more Solo-Friendly and casual, XIV better not have the experience loss that XI has. You can solo for 40 Minutes and gain 3000 exp, but die once and most of that time is lost. Though if the game isn't "Based on level" (I use the term loosely), hopefully it wont even be an option for them.

Also, as far as weakness goes, it's overkill in FFXI. The timer could be lowered to 1 minute. There is really no reason to have a 5 minute weakness for being raised.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 3:09pm by Raiendel
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#34 Apr 04 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Raiendel wrote:
In a game that is supposed to be more Solo-Friendly and casual, XIV better not have the experience loss that XI has. You can solo for 40 Minutes and gain 3000 exp, but die once and most of that time is lost. Though if the game isn't "Based on level" (I use the term loosely), hopefully it wont even be an option for them.

Also, as far as weakness goes, it's overkill in FFXI. The timer could be lowered to 1 minute. There is really no reason to have a 5 minute weakness for being raised.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 3:09pm by Raiendel


Baw, I agree, the penalty was a little steep.
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#35 Apr 04 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Default
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Raiendel wrote:
In a game that is supposed to be more Solo-Friendly and casual, XIV better not have the experience loss that XI has. You can solo for 40 Minutes and gain 3000 exp, but die once and most of that time is lost. Though if the game isn't "Based on level" (I use the term loosely), hopefully it wont even be an option for them.

Also, as far as weakness goes, it's overkill in FFXI. The timer could be lowered to 1 minute. There is really no reason to have a 5 minute weakness for being raised.


If FFXIV is more solo friendly it would imply that exp is easier to gain solo, meaning that if you would lose the same exp as in FFXI it would be less of a big deal.

Weakness is overkill when soloing, but when it comes to long extensive big group fights, where zombie tactics are frowned upon, it most certainly is not.
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#36 Apr 04 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Weakness allows you to go grab a snack and take some time to reconsider your strategy. Or check your email.

I do agree that weakness is a little overkill for solo play, but when there are events that allow everyone in the area to attack any monster regardless of which group has claim.. you could break up your parties and have everyone solo during tough spots so if there were to be a death, people would be counted as solo and avoid weakness. You *could* program each area to have different weakness behavior, but that seems like a lot of work.


Also;
Quote:
It's not a WoW term, it's an MMO term. It means "want to buy". It was used long before WoW, though your personal rivalry is noted.


I know what it means and it's more a distaste than a rivalry. Your comment gave me a chuckle though, I didn't even think or intend to provoke a response out of my comment. I'd more hoped someone would continue the discussion about an Alchemist, though I suppose that is a little off topic.

Quote:
dude, forget MMOs, it is something that is used for the trade of RL items in places like newspapers.


I suppose I don't check the classifieds in the newspapers too often, I can't recall seeing the term used there. Can't say I've seen it in any other MMO either, guess I don't pay enough attention or I've played them all at the wrong hours.
#37 Apr 04 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd more hoped someone would continue the discussion about an Alchemist, though I suppose that is a little off topic.

What no alchemist thread!?
#38 Apr 04 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Here is an idea on how something like Phoenix Down could be balanced:
- Phoenix Downs are crafted and/or bought for a reasonable price, either is fine.
- If a player is brought back with a Phoenix Down, they receive a debuff that prevents them from being raised from Phoenix Down again for an hour or so.
- Rezzing/healing jobs can even have a passive ability that lowers the length of this debuff on themselves.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 12:59am by raynforce
#39 Apr 05 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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flukedrk wrote:
Zackary wrote:
flukedrk wrote:
Hence the inability to be raised again by it until said battle is done. So if person A dies, person B uses Phoenix Down on person A, person A gets a debuff that lasts either until the battle is over or the 5 minute timer elapses after going into passive mode. Like either start the timer after the battle is over, or let it persist until the battle is done. That way person A can't be PD'd again.
There's still the problem of having death become excusable, which I don't think anyone would agree is the way to go. If you die in WoW, it's cool, you'll probably get a battle res if you're important enough. But if not, sucks to be you, you get to be dead. I don't want this to carry over into 14 in any terms, because it just promotes sloppy work.

There was nothing wrong with the way Raise and Reraise worked in XI, don't fix what isn't broken.


Death should be excusable to an extent. Making it come with hefty penalties made the game less fun than it could have been. You didn't want to take risks because of this.
No, death should be acceptable when playing alone. As in, the punishment for dying should not be so steep.

In a group, your main role in most of the group dynamics is to stay alive. Yes, you should do as much damage/healing/whatever as you can, but you must be alive in order to do so. Being able to just say "Oops I died Phoenix Down pls!" each time you die takes away from combat a LOT.
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#40 Apr 05 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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With the ability to switch into passive mode and change ur class during combat, (unless im mistaken about this) cant you just always carry a heal staff/whatever and just skill it up until you can cast raise. So even if the healer dies you can just switch and raise him back then switch back.
#41 Apr 05 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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A none combat raise to speed the recovery after a battle would be much welcomed, but whatever is implemented must be done carefully not to trivialise death. In an MMO, dying is the ultimate "you f%&cked up" message. Something you did was very wrong, and now you are removed from the fight.

The danger of death is also adds fun. In extremes, im sure everyone knows how boring any game, MMO or otherwise becomes when you have infinite lives and it becomes simply a matter of time as opposed to anything else.

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#42 Apr 05 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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LevelUpX wrote:
With the ability to switch into passive mode and change ur class during combat, (unless im mistaken about this) cant you just always carry a heal staff/whatever and just skill it up until you can cast raise. So even if the healer dies you can just switch and raise him back then switch back.


From what I've gathered even if you sheath your weapon in combat the monster keeps you in active mode. So no, this won't be possible. Also, the thing with dying in a group, it should be forgivable, once. Like I have said multiple times, give it a debuff and people won't just blow sh*t up and earn the title "Dude with a deathwish". Mistakes happen, but you shouldn't be so afraid of death because it comes with like a retarded EXP loss and a 5-10 minute weakness. One or the other, not both, or neither.

Edit: Spelling

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 6:20pm by flukedrk
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