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#1 Mar 30 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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There may be hope for us yet. If you direct yourself to the newly updated JP FFXIV official site (I'm sure the EU and NA sites will be updated in the next day or two) you'll see all the new tribes and more information on the different races of Eorzea.

All looks good, but look closely and you notice something...

"Hyur - Highlander"

Which appears to only have males. This means there is now technically more available character options for males than females. Now, this is quite unfair and we all know in our logical minds Square Enix nor any sane video game developer would do this. Having a Gender Specific race is one thing, but they have to offset it with one for the other gender so everything remains equal.

Well, as of right now everything is equal... Except for the Hyur - Highlander. This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females and on that thought, why would they withhold it from us right now?

It would seem we will be seeing more new races and perhaps more tribes in coming updates!
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#2 Mar 30 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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If anything, this all-male Hyur highlander "tribe" (bands of mercenaries) just show that SE is not afraid of adding yet another "race" with only one gender. So it actually worsens the chance of there being male Miqotes.
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#3 Mar 30 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
If anything, this all-male Hyur highlander "tribe" (bands of mercenaries) just show that SE is not afraid of adding yet another "race" with only one gender. So it actually worsens the chance of there being male Miqotes.


It's not really a "Race" though, just a specific tribe. And do you think that Square Enix is not going to add a female version to offset it? I think it honestly shows us Square Enix has more options and ideas up their sleeves that they will announce later. I think with the option of big bulky Galka the highlander isn't going to have as big of a userbase as what Male Miqo'Te would have.

Just stand back and look what's happening. You have to really take it in and think about it, I'm not saying that insultingly either. You have to really think at how they're doing with all this race/tribe development and it shows they're going to be expanding, and if they are going to be expanding chances are good we will get our Male Miqo'Te if they are willing to add some random-out-of-no-where bulky hume guys when we already have Galka. The Demand is high and the chances are good I think. Is it positive? No. But what is positive is that we'll be seeing a Female Tribe to counter the Hyur - Highlanders or Square Enix will get so many bad reviews and be ridiculed for being sexist.

On that note, if they were just adding one more I don't think they would wait till a later date like it seems they're doing. It seems they're doing this to honestly make us think, to tease us, and they'll announce it (all female tribe) along with some other races/tribes later on. If I were Square Enix? I'd wait till the last moments to announce male miqo'te. If they did so now the hype would wear down, but if they do so right near the time of release it will generate a lot of quick hype and make more people want to pick up the game to try for that reason.
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#4 Mar 30 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Was this thread really necessary? There was already a post about the JP site update before you posted this. You knew that, because you posted there first.
#5 Mar 30 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I must say I didn't expect to see this much difference between the tribes.

As I always do, I really hope you're right EndlessJourney. Unfortunately my optimism for male Miqo'Te that was kindled as soon as XIV was announced has gradually deflated over the past few months, to a point now where I've just figured I'll have to be a manthra er... Manqo'Te.

I suppose they probably won't even put male Miqo'te into the beta test just incase the information leaks out (as something as large as that undoubtedly would) so I won't even be able to find a beta-applicant and bug them for information. ._.

And I think Endless posted here to avoid another thread being derailed into male Miqo'te. Honestly, what would you rather? A new thread that you don't actually have to click on if you're not interested (the title is quite clear on the topic), or having the JP-Site thread taken over by people arguing back and forth about this topic?

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 2:09pm by LordFaramir
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#6 Mar 30 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
Was this thread really necessary? There was already a post about the JP site update before you posted this. You knew that, because you posted there first.


This isn't about the JP site update, it's a sub topic about what it could mean by Square Enix adding a all Male Tribe and a discussion on such matter. I'd say it's highly acceptable for it's own thread, especially compared to all the other threads and repeats, questions, advertisements we get around here. As a poster above said, I also didn't want to derail the JP-site-update-thread more than needed.
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#7 Mar 30 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the new info on clans shows that they are atleast not completely finished with options for playable characters(whether that means possibilities of new races or just more tribes I havent made up my mind, in SE's world nothing is final until its been in place for ~6 months)

and thats good news regardless of how you look at it; however IF there are going to be any, I'm pretty sure SE will keep the new race card reallllly close to the vest for a while and probably drop them in open beta or something like that

also..I'm calling it now, incoming wave of Lohengarde Roe's with red skin with many many many versions of the name "Hellboy". No real relevance to this thread whatsoever, but wanted to put it out there.
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#8 Mar 30 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
EndlessJourney wrote:
This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females and on that thought, why would they withhold it from us right now?

It would seem we will be seeing more new races and perhaps more tribes in coming updates!


Not sure I'd draw those same conclusions. There are any number of things SE could do at this point that would include leaving things exactly as they are, adding another race, or expanding on the gender options for existing races/tribes. Maybe SE just didn't like the idea of a barbarian woman so they opted to make the highlander tribe male onry.
#9 Mar 30 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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EndlessJourney wrote:
There may be hope for us yet. If you direct yourself to the newly updated JP FFXIV official site (I'm sure the EU and NA sites will be updated in the next day or two) you'll see all the new tribes and more information on the different races of Eorzea.

All looks good, but look closely and you notice something...

"Hyur - Highlander"

Which appears to only have males. This means there is now technically more available character options for males than females. Now, this is quite unfair and we all know in our logical minds Square Enix nor any sane video game developer would do this. Having a Gender Specific race is one thing, but they have to offset it with one for the other gender so everything remains equal.

Well, as of right now everything is equal... Except for the Hyur - Highlander. This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females and on that thought, why would they withhold it from us right now?

It would seem we will be seeing more new races and perhaps more tribes in coming updates!


If this does comes to pass,
do you think they will add Male Miqo'te to both tribes and add an all new race with an all female tribe
or just add males to one of the Miqo'te tribes and make an all new female race?
(edited) That wouldn't work. They would need 2 new races then. 1 to replace the Miqo'te and 1 to balance the highlander now.........

If they are to add males to only one tribe, which one?

Also what would everyone like to see as a new all female Race or new race with an all female tribe?

Viera seems the obvious choice if there is to be an all female race, but they could come at us with something entirely from left field with this one.

New race with all female tribe tho....Hmmm........ I'll have to think about that one. =P

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 11:55am by Faaeng

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 12:04pm by Faaeng
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#10 Mar 30 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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They could easily throw in the guys with the bunny ears. Or the lizard folk. But at this point in time. I dont really see them adding anymore races. I would be pretty shocked if they did by this point.
#11 Mar 30 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Faaeng wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
There may be hope for us yet. If you direct yourself to the newly updated JP FFXIV official site (I'm sure the EU and NA sites will be updated in the next day or two) you'll see all the new tribes and more information on the different races of Eorzea.

All looks good, but look closely and you notice something...

"Hyur - Highlander"

Which appears to only have males. This means there is now technically more available character options for males than females. Now, this is quite unfair and we all know in our logical minds Square Enix nor any sane video game developer would do this. Having a Gender Specific race is one thing, but they have to offset it with one for the other gender so everything remains equal.

Well, as of right now everything is equal... Except for the Hyur - Highlander. This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females and on that thought, why would they withhold it from us right now?

It would seem we will be seeing more new races and perhaps more tribes in coming updates!


If this does comes to pass, what would everyone like to see or thinks we will see as the new all female Race?
I only say new race because throwing in another new tribe to one of the current races would throw off the balance would it not? Every race would have 2 tribes except one has 3?
Viera seems the obvious choice, but they could come at us with something entirely from left field with this one.
Gria, as mentioned several times, would be nice.

But gah.. two all-female races? At least with tribes there isn't a huge difference between them - and they'll probably have the same or at least very similiar stats to each other. A new race means a whole new different stat-selection, totally different visuals, etc. Another all female race will make the game even more limiting.

And now if they counter-balance that by adding Male Miqo'te we still see an imbalance towards male, thanks to these Highlanders.

But I don't really care about balance. Give us a new all-femme race and give us our catboys you bastards.
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#12 Mar 30 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
Faaeng wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
There may be hope for us yet. If you direct yourself to the newly updated JP FFXIV official site (I'm sure the EU and NA sites will be updated in the next day or two) you'll see all the new tribes and more information on the different races of Eorzea.

All looks good, but look closely and you notice something...

"Hyur - Highlander"

Which appears to only have males. This means there is now technically more available character options for males than females. Now, this is quite unfair and we all know in our logical minds Square Enix nor any sane video game developer would do this. Having a Gender Specific race is one thing, but they have to offset it with one for the other gender so everything remains equal.

Well, as of right now everything is equal... Except for the Hyur - Highlander. This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females and on that thought, why would they withhold it from us right now?

It would seem we will be seeing more new races and perhaps more tribes in coming updates!


If this does comes to pass, what would everyone like to see or thinks we will see as the new all female Race?
I only say new race because throwing in another new tribe to one of the current races would throw off the balance would it not? Every race would have 2 tribes except one has 3?
Viera seems the obvious choice, but they could come at us with something entirely from left field with this one.
Gria, as mentioned several times, would be nice.

But gah.. two all-female races? At least with tribes there isn't a huge difference between them - and they'll probably have the same or at least very similiar stats to each other. A new race means a whole new different stat-selection, totally different visuals, etc. Another all female race will make the game even more limiting.

And now if they counter-balance that by adding Male Miqo'te we still see an imbalance towards male, thanks to these Highlanders.

But I don't really care about balance. Give us a new all-femme race and give us our catboys you bastards.


that is kind of what we are getting at. We're talking about them adding male Miqo'te. If they add Male Miqo'te, like so many people want they will have to do so one of 2 way if they wish to keep everything in balance because of the male only Highlanders.

1) Add male Miqo'te to just one of the tribe and create an all new all female race. This would balance every thing out.
2) if they were to add Males to both tribes then they would add a whole new female race to replace the miqo'te....wait. that wont work.... They would have to add 2 new races now wouldnt they? Now the need a race with a female only tribe aswell......... DOH

Option 1 would work tho. =P


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 12:10pm by Faaeng
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#13 Mar 30 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I have an issue with this whole argument. You're thinking of it from the perspective of "I want to be a Cat boy, meow meow!" where as Square is thinking of it from the perspective of "We will create a race of people that personifies the male (Huge muscles, war like, rough) and female stereotypes (Cute, playful, yet powerful/agile etc.)

So to make a female or male version of either won't happen because that is what they have decided for these races.

It adds flavour to the race options for those who want to stand out.

They've already created the back story for these races and well established the roles they play. I don't think that will change. The point of the Miqo'Te is that they're a race of mostly female hunters, there are probably males but they are rare and hold a higher role in society, so the moment you add a male option EVERYONE who wants to be a male Miqo'Te will be one and it sort of ruins the whole backstory. It also makes the females who want to be a Miqo'Te less special (I have a feeling that if they opened this up you would actually see more male Miqo'Te then female)

Same goes for the "Galka", in FFXI they established the reason they were all "Males" (To call them Males doesn't really make sense, they're actually a-sexual) They didn't reproduce at all in fact they simply reincarnated (How that happens who bloody knows) anyway point is they established back story in order make certain that there were no misconceptions about why there wasn't another gender to the race.

Now, does that mean that they won't add another race in the future that's different (Fur, Ears, whatever) and will have both a male and female gender? Of course not, they have a ton of ideas to play off of and looking at the size of the atlas they've given us to play with there are a lot of opportunities for a new race of peoples. I bet the only reason they didn't add a new PC race in FFXI was because of the RAM limitations of the PS2.

Edited, Mar 30th 2010 12:24pm by Xebius
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#14 Mar 30 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not really fond of the Male Miqo'te thing. It gives the race their flavor of female-only warriors. But I'm not against it. I think in terms of character customization, more options is better.

However, I do like the ideas of factions within each race. I think it will surely help with peoples RP experiences and give cool options for non-RP'ers to play the race they want with a different feel to them.

Also, why is everyone so concerned over the balance of the number of male to female options? Balance in terms of gameplay and mechanincs I care about. But who cares if there is one more male option in terms of races? (assuming there is no female option for the Highlander faction.)

Either way, I wish SE would just give us the whole story on something already! lol
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#15 Mar 30 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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BTW, "Hyur - Highlander" Is just the Tribe of the "Male" Race they've already shown before. It's not a new race.

Just like there are two tribes of Miqo'te

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#16 Mar 30 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Xebius wrote:
They've already created the back story for these races and well established the roles they play. I don't think that will change. The point of the Miqo'Te is that they're a race of mostly female hunters, there are probably males but they are rare and hold a higher role in society, so the moment you add a male option EVERYONE who wants to be a male Miqo'Te will be one and it sort of ruins the whole backstory. It also makes the females who want to be a Miqo'Te less special (I have a feeling that if they opened this up you would actually see more male Miqo'Te then female)
Maybe I've missed something I haven't seen SE mention, or even imply, that males are rare in their society - or that males are simply "on another island" like in FFXI.
Quote:
I have an issue with this whole argument. You're thinking of it from the perspective of "I want to be a Cat boy, meow meow!" where as Square is thinking of it from the perspective of "We will create a race of people that personifies the male (Huge muscles, war like, rough) and female stereotypes (Cute, playful, yet powerful/agile etc.)
And this.. I'm not even going to get started on this. Do you think it's right that SE are simply aiming towards stereotypes, don't you think they should be like, trying to surpass those or something?

Are we getting a new game or a recycled amalgamation of every other fantasy title already on the market.

Eh. No point in arguing between ourselves though as to what SE's motives are, but I don't see aiming towards stereotypes to be very 2010 progressive thinking. Playing it safe is what it sounds like to me. I don't particularly like that. :/
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#17 Mar 30 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
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...another Manthra thread?

::Heads back to JP site update thread::
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#18 Mar 30 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
LordFaramir wrote:
Maybe I've missed something I haven't seen SE mention, or even imply, that males are rare in their society - or that males are simply "on another island" like in FFXI.


The implication is from SE's stated desire to preserve the races as something familiar from FFXI, I would assume. People have been pining over the idea of a male mithra since FFXI's NA release. Something tells me that won't change with FFXIV and even if (hypothetical) SE builds a story around Miqo'te that makes it highly unlikely if not impossible for them to include male Miqo'te as playable characters, every single major patch and every single expansion will feature new threads asking if now is finally the time that the male Miqo'te will be introduced. Of course, it will follow the same trend as FFXI of, "male miqo'te + race change this patch?!?!!1" That's just how it's always been.

Quote:
Quote:
I have an issue with this whole argument. You're thinking of it from the perspective of "I want to be a Cat boy, meow meow!" where as Square is thinking of it from the perspective of "We will create a race of people that personifies the male (Huge muscles, war like, rough) and female stereotypes (Cute, playful, yet powerful/agile etc.)
And this.. I'm not even going to get started on this. Do you think it's right that SE are simply aiming towards stereotypes, don't you think they should be like, trying to surpass those or something?

Are we getting a new game or a recycled amalgamation of every other fantasy title already on the market.


The races are symbolic, not stereotypical. They also scale along a path from "physically deficient but nimble and highly intelligent" to "dumb as a stump but physically dominant" with a couple of stops in between. I've never personally been too hung up on gender/race shenanigans, but it's important to some people.
#19 Mar 30 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly they should add at least one new race. I think having Male Miqo'Te for one clan of Miqo'Te's and adding a new female only race would balance everything out. I vote for them adding Viera. **** bunnies!!!
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#20 Mar 30 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:

The races are symbolic, not stereotypical. They also scale along a path from "physically deficient but nimble and highly intelligent" to "dumb as a stump but physically dominant" with a couple of stops in between. I've never personally been too hung up on gender/race shenanigans, but it's important to some people.


Thanks for that (Though I wouldn't say they were dumb as a post, just not as smart as some of the other races, it's all about perspectives)


Keep in mind also that this is a Japanese company making what is mostly a Japanese game. Sure some of the gameplay concepts they borrowed from more western games, but this is still FF and it still has a Japanese culture base. Things that we think should be included because they're progressive and inclusive don't even register for the developers because they're of a different culture and mind set. They want to do it their way and they will, this isn't necessarily a democracy, sure they will take good suggestions and use them but it's still their game.
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#21 Mar 30 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure I understand the logic, but I love the conclusion.

Trying to ignore the bulk of this thread, because oh god, could I ever whip up a rant about technical limitations being played off, assumption of gend, things.


Quote:
The races are symbolic, not stereotypical. They also scale along a path from "physically deficient but nimble and highly intelligent" to "dumb as a stump but physically dominant" with a couple of stops in between. I've never personally been too hung up on gender/race shenanigans, but it's important to some people.


This one seems pretty safe, though.
I would argue the races are stereotypical not because of their choice to be classically symbolic but the forms they choose to express that. For example; You can have a form that represents a svelte race that isn't yet another Elf.


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 2:33pm by Zemzelette
#22 Mar 30 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
Zemzelette wrote:
This one seems pretty safe, though.
I would argue the races are stereotypical not because of their choice to be classically symbolic but the forms they choose to express that. For example; You can have a form that represents a svelte race that isn't yet another Elf.


I wouldn't disagree with that, but remember that we're talking about a culture where apparently the sexiest thing in the world involves a schoolgirl outfit. From a creative design standpoint there are always things that could be done differently but I'm happy with SE's decision to append some form of meaning to their racial offerings. It's the whole small/medium/large racial selection with features that hint at or flat out explicitly indicate the "performance" traits of a given race that is seen in RPGs and MMOs all over. Could they have approached it differently? Absolutely. Could they have made the races 100% cosmetic with no functional difference between them? Certainly. Could they have made taru/lalafel the physically dominant race and galka/rogaedyn the under-appreciated geniuses of the world? Definitely. That's the whole thing about racial "diversity" in MMOs...it could be significant or cosmetic and no matter what route a developer chooses, there will be players who appreciate the developers' choice and players who resent it.
#23 Mar 30 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Zemzelette wrote:
This one seems pretty safe, though.
I would argue the races are stereotypical not because of their choice to be classically symbolic but the forms they choose to express that. For example; You can have a form that represents a svelte race that isn't yet another Elf.


I wouldn't disagree with that, but remember that we're talking about a culture where apparently the sexiest thing in the world involves a schoolgirl outfit. From a creative design standpoint there are always things that could be done differently but I'm happy with SE's decision to append some form of meaning to their racial offerings. It's the whole small/medium/large racial selection with features that hint at or flat out explicitly indicate the "performance" traits of a given race that is seen in RPGs and MMOs all over. Could they have approached it differently? Absolutely. Could they have made the races 100% cosmetic with no functional difference between them? Certainly. Could they have made taru/lalafel the physically dominant race and galka/rogaedyn the under-appreciated geniuses of the world? Definitely. That's the whole thing about racial "diversity" in MMOs...it could be significant or cosmetic and no matter what route a developer chooses, there will be players who appreciate the developers' choice and players who resent it.

hey Hey HEY NOW!!!!
Don't be knockin the **** schoolgirl outfit.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 2:59pm by Faaeng
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#24 Mar 30 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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EndlessJourney wrote:


All looks good, but look closely and you notice something...

"Hyur - Highlander"

Which appears to only have males.
This is a faulty assumption. The translated text says that only the males appear in other areas. For all we know, the females stay at home to run things while the males go out and hunt. I think people are reading too much into the line about the male mercenaries being the only ones usually seen in public.
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#25 Mar 30 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is a faulty assumption. The translated text says that only the males appear in other areas. For all we know, the females stay at home to run things while the males go out and hunt. I think people are reading too much into the line about the male mercenaries being the only ones usually seen in public.


This is how it first hit me too. The description mentions female, but says they are rare outside the highland areas. I think everyone is getting hung up on the fact that there is no picture of a female highlander, while every other tribe has a male and female picture(Excluding the races that have only 1 ***).

I don't really mind if highlander is a male only tribe. That physique never really did it for me. I'm a guy and I would rather be thin than buff.
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#26 Mar 30 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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i read an interesting article discussion the role of gender in video games, and why there arent many female characters (much less female leads) in a lot of video games.

mostly it came down to a combination of cost vs gain (most gamers are male, and despite the oft-repeated joke, tend to prefer male protagonists) and the qualities of the female characters themselves. fable was referenced as an example. apparently, if you made a female character in fable and maex out her strength, she turned into she-man basically, this huge, muscle-bound woman. a number of people apparently wrote in wanting to be able to have more customizeability in the sense that if they wanted a strong female character, they didnt want her to be super bulky. they still wanted her to retain her femininity if you will (what they considered femininity anyway, and these letters were both from men and women).

so i think that has something of an effect on why you'll probably only see female miqo'te and male roegadyn.
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#27 Mar 30 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
tiny amount of inconclusive info MASSIVE SPECULATION
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#28 Mar 30 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
Professor shintasama wrote:
tiny amount of inconclusive info MASSIVE SPECULATION


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#29 Mar 30 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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I could be wrong about this, but don't most larger cats that run in packs operate the way mithras do? The menfolk generally stay at "home" and the womenfolks go out and about on adventures (and bring home dinner)?


And what's with the hangup on there needing to absolutely be equality between the numbers of playable characters per gender? This isn't the real world, where social ideologies have to come into play. Just let it be a game, I have a feeling that SE's back-stories on why they decide to do whatever they do will be interesting enough to forgive them for having 1 more male or female character.
#30 Mar 30 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I would bet my bank account that the reason Hyuran Highlanders only appear as males in this update is that they just do not have/do not want to show the Female Highlander models yet because they are not done or polished to the point where they would like to show them.

Assuming that simply because they've only shown one thing, another thing can not exist is silly. It would make absolutely no sense for female highlanders to not exist, please just be patient, I am sure we will see them before long.
#31 Mar 30 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The highlander race looks more like Barbarian humans then anything. Im not sure if anyone posted that in this thread already as I didnt get to read it all since Im in a bit of a hurry atm. The image of them is the second group down on the update today on the JP site.
http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/1233440_1124.html
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#32 Mar 30 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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mostly it came down to a combination of cost vs gain (most gamers are male, and despite the oft-repeated joke, tend to prefer male protagonists) and the qualities of the female characters themselves.


I don't doubt that's exactly the rationale, it's just that it rings so hollow when the Corporations do their damndest to appeal to men but turn right around and whine about how they're not courting the female demographics. As if closing their eyes, clicking their heels together 3 times, and wishing really really hard will somehow make it all work out in the end. In general, that whole "women make products for women, men make products for everybody" thing just needs to go ahead and die a bloody death.

Augh, and I promised myself I wouldn't rant.
Back to safe stuff.



Quote:

I wouldn't disagree with that, but remember that we're talking about a culture where apparently the sexiest thing in the world involves a schoolgirl outfit.


I'm going to have to admit my ignorance here. Where does sexuality come into using stereotypical forms to represent symbolic concepts?


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 11:12pm by Zemzelette
#33 Mar 30 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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It said that most of the Highlanders were rarely seen in big cities, not that the only existing ones are male mercenaries?
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#34 Mar 30 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:

I wouldn't disagree with that, but remember that we're talking about a culture where apparently the sexiest thing in the world involves a schoolgirl outfit.


I'm going to have to admit my ignorance here. Where does sexuality come into using stereotypical forms to represent symbolic concepts?


For as long as I played FFXI, mithra were synonymous with "the race you played because they're hawt." That was a western perception and while I have no doubt there were no shortage of JP males who felt the same way, I think there was an extra depth to the symbolism. Western society places significant emphasis on power. So when they see galkas who, despite being asexual, were generally viewed as being male and due to their size and general attributes (STR and VIT) were symbolic of that power, the general western stereotype was one of males as powerful and females as nimble. We don't place a lot of cultural weight on dexterity, but when a western male references a female as being agile and flexible...ya...you know where that goes.

But consider it in another context. More of a yin/yang style. On one side you have power and on the other side you have grace. Speaking from a traditional cultural standpoint, the Japanese placed more emphasis on grace than power. Power was important in terms of conflict and maintaining order, but grace was the underpinning of most of their cultural pursuits. Where the western view of the galka/mithra may lean to that of the stereotype of gender conflict, that's not the only way to look at it.
#35 Mar 30 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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I don't doubt that's exactly the rationale, it's just that it rings so hollow when the Corporations do their damndest to appeal to men but turn right around and whine about how they're not courting the female demographics. As if closing their eyes, clicking their heels together 3 times, and wishing really really hard will somehow make it all work out in the end.


i got the feeling it was very much a "have their cake and eat it too" kind of mindset. they want to be able to court the female demographic, while somehow avoiding the increase in production costs.
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#36 Mar 30 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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If the same basic lore from Galka applies to Roe-i-forget-the-rest technically they are asexual and without gender. Meaning there would be one more female option than male.
#37 Mar 30 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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This entire thread makes me /facepalm.

Anyhow, I had another idea I thought I would share.

Hyur is obviously the token "human" class of FFXIV, and perhaps since they are the "balanced" race across the state/abilities board we might see one more tribe to them as we see in the other races. What I'm saying is, while I don't think there will be a Hyur Highlander, perhaps there will be a Hyur-all-female-race. They might even call them "Lowlanders". If you think about it, it makes sense being as you have Highlander and Midlander already, Midlander having both genders, Highlander being male, Lowlander would be female.

There is also the possibility that Square Enix could add more tribes to all the races, it might not be a complete listing just yet. We might get more female/male only varieties. This sort of thing is why I implied their still might be some hope for people wishing for male miqo'te, new races, more tribes, etc.
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#38 Mar 30 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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I have an issue with this whole argument. You're thinking of it from the perspective of "I want to be a Cat boy, meow meow!"


What a mature person you are, I'm glad you can see the depth of the argument itself and why people want them. I'm also glad you're open minded and understanding to other individual's wants and desires, especially when they are such large scale ones. I'm sure you would make a great video game developer.

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So to make a female or male version of either won't happen because that is what they have decided for these races.


I'm glad you know what will and won't happen and what they have decided.

Quote:
They've already created the back story for these races and well established the roles they play. I don't think that will change. The point of the Miqo'Te is that they're a race of mostly female hunters, there are probably males but they are rare and hold a higher role in society, so the moment you add a male option EVERYONE who wants to be a male Miqo'Te will be one and it sort of ruins the whole backstory. It also makes the females who want to be a Miqo'Te less special (I have a feeling that if they opened this up you would actually see more male Miqo'Te then female)


I like how you know exactly what the Miqo'Te backstory is, same for Roegadyn, as they haven't even been explained yet. Yet you some how know everything about them. You're just assuming this is FFXI 2.0 and acting like everything is going to have the same set of rules and stories as they did in FFXI, how completely foolish. This isn't FFXI, did you not get the memo? There might be some similarities, but saying you know what the exact back stories will and won't be and what will and won't be added is just being pompous.
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#39 Mar 30 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Default
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i have to second the being skinny is more attractive than buff.

i also second the japanese mindset being different than westerners/americans.
i say /americans because my family is from europe and they also have a very different mindset of gender roles, looks, and attitudes. their ideas of those such things are actually alot more similar to the japanese mindset. buff if your a brute, but men in general should be slender and youngish looking and women should be very very thin with cute girly features but with a strong attitude.
also on a side note, SE has no responsibility to try to overcome any stereotypes just fyi, if they want to make chicks with big boobs, a 12 year olds face and a tear away school girl outfit then they can **** well do that, they dont have to answer to anyone.
just like lady gaga, if she wants to be a talentless attention ***** fashion fraud then so be it. i cant stand the b****es very existance but she dont have to answer to me.
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#40 Mar 30 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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it's just that it rings so hollow when the Corporations do their damndest to appeal to men but turn right around and whine about how they're not courting the female demographics.

really? you must not delve into japanese lifestyle very much because japanese girls love and commonly play video games. there are tons and tons of video games that are meant specificly for females in asia and parts of europe.
its just not that way in america, people act like were the most socially advanced place on earth, lol not true at all. americans are very closed minded about certain things, especially gender. im sorry but our females arent expected to be into things like video games, it is however more expected in other places in the world.

im all for a male mi'qote, but i dont really see its appeal. i always thought vieras were more attractive than mithra. i just dont get why people have always been so obsessed with having a male version of mithra/mi'qote.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 1:41am by pixelpop
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#41 Mar 31 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
EndlessJourney wrote:
I'm glad you know what will and won't happen and what they have decided.


Apparently you seem to think you do, so what makes you so special that you can make statements like:

EndlessJourney wrote:
This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females


and other people can't be as assertive?

Just sayin'.
#42 Mar 31 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I was gonna chime in on the whole male Miqo'Te deal, but as I was reading down the thread I kinda forgot where this was going. So I'm throwing some random musings in.

Is this thread officially derailed enough yet?

Anyways... the problem is that they are copy+pasting some parts from FFXI while injecting new twists in the races, and calling them brand new. Added on to the fact that SE isn't really on full disclosure with the public about anything FFXIV yet. It just screws with our minds.

So, lets take this opportunity to speculate liiike craaazyyy!! >:P

I think with the showing of the new human Hyur faction, that give 2 factions per race now? Maybe they are done... I'm kinda leaning away from non-revealed races just because I've read that SE was using the FFXI race-models to help facilitate tranfering people from FFXI.

But I personally hope they do add male Miqo'Te, just for the purpose of having my roomate shut-up about it already. >_< ...lol
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#43 Mar 31 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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I'd accuse you of a strawman, Pixelpop. But it's much more likely you made an innocent mistake in missing a more logical interpretation, given that my writing isn't always as coherent as I'd like it to be. Insomuch that 'more' female gamers in one location does not equal 'enough to satisfy all corporations across the globe'.


Edited, Mar 31st 2010 3:24am by Zemzelette
#44 Mar 31 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
I'm glad you know what will and won't happen and what they have decided.


Apparently you seem to think you do, so what makes you so special that you can make statements like:

EndlessJourney wrote:
This means we will be seeing at least one more new tribe of all females


and other people can't be as assertive?

Just sayin'.


That's one statement you're taking highly out of context just to be a ****, which I must commend you are quite excellent at. I've stated several times and will state again right now nothing is certain and what I say is based off of what is going to logically happen given square enix's development patterns. I do humbly apologize for my wording of that statement though, I wasn't trying to assert a fact, even though I'm about 99% sure, I still will leave room for error at this point as no one can be 100% sure of anything till the game is released.

The person I was quoting was boasting fact after fact and creating a entire argument around the fact of how Miqo'Te and Roegadyn are going to follow the same stories and guidelines as Mithra and Galka some how, the same lore and everything.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 1:02am by EndlessJourney
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#45 Mar 31 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
mostly it came down to a combination of cost vs gain (most gamers are male, and despite the oft-repeated joke, tend to prefer male protagonists) and the qualities of the female characters themselves.


I don't doubt that's exactly the rationale, it's just that it rings so hollow when the Corporations do their damndest to appeal to men but turn right around and whine about how they're not courting the female demographics. As if closing their eyes, clicking their heels together 3 times, and wishing really really hard will somehow make it all work out in the end. In general, that whole "women make products for women, men make products for everybody" thing just needs to go ahead and die a bloody death.

Augh, and I promised myself I wouldn't rant.
Back to safe stuff.



Quote:

I wouldn't disagree with that, but remember that we're talking about a culture where apparently the sexiest thing in the world involves a schoolgirl outfit.


I'm going to have to admit my ignorance here. Where does sexuality come into using stereotypical forms to represent symbolic concepts?


Edited, Mar 30th 2010 11:12pm by Zemzelette


I just thought I'd post this since you are touching on the topic a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ZVZRsy8N8

I don't really have much to contribute to this discussion, but I saw this a couple of days ago and thought it could be of some interest to some here.
#46 Mar 31 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I guess I don't get to argue with all the cool trolls. Seriously, it's like no one even considered the fact that they just don't want to show the assets for Highlander females yet, not a single other person?

Let's also ignore the dilemma that there is no canon on the site, or logical explanation as to why an entire "clan" of Hyuran (who are obviously sexual, possessing a male and a female) who at one point had an entire city; Ala Mihgo, which was recognized as the greatest state in Eorzea, would not have a female gender.

It's all very confusing to me, to be perfectly honest.


Back to the whole issue of Male Miqo'te and Roegadyn, I'm a bit confused on this too, I'm pretty certain they mentioned something about having Female Roegadyn assets created. This seems strange to me, if they are in fact based off the asexual Galka. If they are, there's no reason they'd create that asset, or mention having it, Square-Enix is not known for being open about random plans they have no intention to implement. So I expect to see both Males and Females of these races, at least in the form of NPCs. If they really did feel like sharing the ideas they are spitballin' then more power to them.

Either way, if they add both opposite genders, great. If they add Male Miqo'te and it turns out Rogeadyn are asexual, who really cares? I got a chance to mess around with Tera at GDC and they had a race of rocklike golems that were also genderless, guess what they were rock golems, and had masculine traits because they're just bulky, and yes we associate bulkiness with masculine, its just the way we are, believe it or not genders are predisposed to various things. I wonder if an additional level of removal from the norm, like making Rogeadyn rock golems would have created a situation where people care less about the "balance" of male to female options.

In the end, if the Rogeadyn are genderless, there really are not more male options than female. Hence; genderless. Simply because they have a masculine appearance does not tip the tables, the game does not ask you your gender when you make a Square-Enix account and prevent you from crossing the gender bridge like some MMOs. A female player can make a Galka just like they can make a Rogeadyn. I have female friends who play Galka! (Oh noes!) Its not common, but its also not impossible.

Here's where I'd somehow weave this wall of text into some sort of cohesive argument, but it is 5 AM here, and I'm rather tired, and hungry so I'm not going to attempt to do it. Back to arguing over speculation, I look forward to more name calling.
#47 Mar 31 2010 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Urgh, god, this thread reminds me why I need to stay away from this place until SE sets some stuff in stone.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 6:01am by Kirbster
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#48 Mar 31 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
I guess I don't get to argue with all the cool trolls. Seriously, it's like no one even considered the fact that they just don't want to show the assets for Highlander females yet, not a single other person?

Let's also ignore the dilemma that there is no canon on the site, or logical explanation as to why an entire "clan" of Hyuran (who are obviously sexual, possessing a male and a female) who at one point had an entire city; Ala Mihgo, which was recognized as the greatest state in Eorzea, would not have a female gender.

It's all very confusing to me, to be perfectly honest.
Quote:
The highlanders dominate the remote, northern highlands. They are the strong, muscular, tribe of the Hyuran. After their city-state of Ala Mihgo fell to the Garlean Empire, with the exception of Male Mercenaries, it has become rare to see them in other cities.
I don't really see how it could be that confusing.

And since when has the site been non-canon? It's the official freakin' site.

They lost the war. They got kicked out a while back.

The characters that you can play (male mercenaries) are the only ones hanging around in the city (presumably to work adventure). The womens and childrens and normal-guys (likely not so buff as these characters) are off in wherever-they-live land.

It's not exactly a difficult concept :s

Nor is there much ambiguity in their description - I really, really doubt we'll be seeing female Highlanders.
Quote:
In the end, if the Rogeadyn are genderless, there really are not more male options than female. Hence; genderless. Simply because they have a masculine appearance does not tip the tables, the game does not ask you your gender when you make a Square-Enix account and prevent you from crossing the gender bridge like some MMOs. A female player can make a Galka just like they can make a Rogeadyn. I have female friends who play Galka! (Oh noes!) Its not common, but its also not impossible.
In FFXI, I do believe for all practical purposes, Galka classed as a "male" character. For gender-specific quests and such. Didn't SE themselves say while they are genderless, they are pretty much dudes?



Edited, Mar 31st 2010 3:28pm by LordFaramir
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#49 Mar 31 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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What a shame no female highlanders with bulging biceps, maybe SE thought this was one cliché too far, well we will have to wait and see.
As for male Miqo'te I don't see how this in any way improves the chances we will see them, or rather I see the reasoning but I don't reach the same conclusion, not that I am bothered either way myself.
#50 Apr 01 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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This is reminding me of when the first screenshots of Dancer were released, back before Wings came out. They only had shots of female Dancers, everyone was "ZOMG female onry job!"

Likely are female Highlanders somewhere, as the Hyur are a male/female race. Just chill out and wait for the next batch of SE updates. :)
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#51 Apr 01 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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This is reminding me of when the first screenshots of Dancer were released, back before Wings came out. They only had shots of female Dancers, everyone was "ZOMG female onry job!"

Oh I had forgetten about that, nice analogy!
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