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Eyes, Eyes, Ears, EarsFollow

#1 Mar 31 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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They have cold, piercing, colorful, cat-like eyes...many follow a nocturnal lifestyle...With their large ears, they can hear even the faintest footsteps of a mole...One of their unique features is that their eyes are enveloped by a protective clear film, which makes their eyes resemble a Crystal Ball...They are proud of their hawk-like eyesight, and excel in archery...Developing bat-like ears, they can sense the enemy's movement by the rustling of clothes...


Nowadays such things are usually flavortext, but it wasn't always this way.

Characteristics, sometimes specific to your race or sometimes dictated by your stats, used to have an effect on your character in ways that were completely external to battle. A racial example is in Everquest; Dark Elves had better vision than Humans, so a player playing a Dark Elf could see better during the nighttime and in caves better than a player playing a Human. A stat example is in Ultima Online; where everything had a weight that corresponded to what it was made of, and Strength would determine how much weight you could bear.

So how would you feel if players playing Shaders could hear better? If they could hear a slight base growl of a mob creeping up behind them that players playing another race were restricted from hearing? If Foresters could see farther? If Highlanders could carry more items? Or if Moonkeepers could see in the dark?

Would you resent the difference and feel as though you were being left out or forced play a specific race? Or would you consider it an interestingly immersive bonus because it doesn't affect battle directly?


Edited, Mar 31st 2010 8:25pm by Zemzelette
#2 Mar 31 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I always really liked it when MMOS added things like that. EQ2 had the same thing as far as site goes. Thermal, infered, ect, ect. But I like it to were races actually are diffrent state wise. Even if it means gimping myself. I like going agianst the grain. My galka wasnt that to shappy of a healer and SMN even though the race wasnt as good at it as others.
#3 Mar 31 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Would you resent the difference and feel as though you were being left out or forced play a specific race? Or would you consider it an interestingly immersive bonus because it doesn't affect battle directly?


I think that as long as it doesn't affect battle or other critical situations (such as perhaps making a race have an ability that lessens the chance of getting spotted by aggro), then it could be fine. But down the road, someone will eventually find out which abilities fare better in a variety of situations and will label the race that has it as being better than the other races. Hopefully, the playerbase will still stick to the race they find most attractive and not bother about such abilities.
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#4 Mar 31 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Nowadays such things are usually flavortext, but it wasn't always this way.

In my opinion, there's a good reason these features are usually fluff; because they're irritating.

I think part of the confusing stems from the term "RPG" being used to describe two different genres. There are role-playing games and then there are role-playing games. Role-playing games are focused on role-playing, and the objective is to simulate a fanciful reality; in these games stats like systems where strength determines how much weight you can carry make more sense. In role-playing games the focus is on creating a mechanical game, and the superficial features are there to give it some context and aesthetic appeal; the board game battleship is nothing like real naval combat nor is it supposed to be.

Old MMORPGs had a lot of influence from old tabletop RPGs, where the emphasis was on role-play. However, I feel most new MMORPGs (including even FFXI) are more focused on the mechanical game.

Often times, overlap is rare and difficult, because many mechanics that may be realistic are irritating and frustrating outside of playing make believe, and many mechanics that are highly functional are entirely unrealistic.

I personally prefer RPGs (even though I've played a fair share of D&D). I find that RPGs when played for the mechanics are too cumbersome and fail quite a bit at achieving realism. So my super strong barbarian can carry 500 pounds of weapons because he's really strong, but how does he fight effectively while carrying a 10x10x10 foot bale of hay?

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 7:40pm by Allegory
#5 Mar 31 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Well if they had specific role play servers where these effects were available I wouldn't be opposed to it. At the very least SE has stated they won't make racial stats as effective with this game, so even if there is a difference i'm sure it won't be notable in combat or critical scenarios.
#6 Mar 31 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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I personally like added racial traits like this, but at the same time they can be really irritating.

I love the idea of being able to have a character that can hear better, or see farther.. but if I had to limit myself to playing an Elezen to do so I would rather it not be part of the game. Maybe if there were traits like this tied to what class you are currently playing, it would add some extra incentives to bring certain classes to certain situations.
#7 Mar 31 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Siks wrote:
Maybe if there were traits like this tied to what class you are currently playing, it would add some extra incentives to bring certain classes to certain situations.


My main reasoning for not liking this on all servers is that it will exclude certain people from events just because they weren't the ideal set up. Say you are in an endgame shell doing the newest boss. you've been with them from the beginning but the new Elezen archer gets the call "because he is better with his eyesight". Now lets say you are on a guildleve which requires entrance to a cave that only the Keepers of the Moon can navigate, so you have to wait for a keeper of the moon who is on the same stage of the quest or just helpful to come along. I see that creating more problems that wouldn't be worth the added bonus.
#8 Mar 31 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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SE already mentioned that there were going to be no "stat" differences between races (like mana and hp differences), so I would assume this goes for the proposed options in the OP as well.

What do I think of the concept though? Well, I think it makes "logical" sense...

.. but I think I don't play MMOs to be "logical" :P I can do that in the real world. I play the game to have fun, and I just want to be able to choose my own avatar and customize her appearance the way I like it without worrying about what it's going to make me good or bad at.
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#9 Mar 31 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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I too like differences in the races...give a game a nice variety...though...I'm not entirely sure how you can translate better hearing into the game. I suppose you could make it so mobs gave "tells" on what they are about to do vocally that can only be picked up by someone with better hearing.

Oh and I believe SE said the stat difference between races would be small, not non-existent.
#10 Mar 31 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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My main reasoning for not liking this on all servers is that it will exclude certain people from events just because they weren't the ideal set up. Say you are in an endgame shell doing the newest boss. you've been with them from the beginning but the new Elezen archer gets the call "because he is better with his eyesight". Now lets say you are on a guildleve which requires entrance to a cave that only the Keepers of the Moon can navigate, so you have to wait for a keeper of the moon who is on the same stage of the quest or just helpful to come along. I see that creating more problems that wouldn't be worth the added bonus.


I can see your point in not wanting this available everywhere, not everyone would like the added differences between races. But I also feel if a group decides to wait on a specific race because they can see 50 feet further out, that's a strange group to be with. It's almost like waiting on someone with the fastest system and connection to go into unexplored territory first, so they don't lag out and aggro unintentionally. (that's a bit of a stretch, i know..)

It doesn't really matter in the end, this thread is entirely toying with ideas that SE may not have even though of, or already considered and decided against. What we're thinking about though wouldn't really benefit any situation, it would just be the kind of things that add that little extra flavor to the game, appreciated on a player by player basis. Stupid things like being able to consume raw fish or meat.
#11 Mar 31 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Stupid things like being able to consume raw fish or meat.


This.

These characteristics (Eyes, Eyes, Ears, Ears) are related to the game aestethics, making legitime those physical characteristics visualy percieved. They tell the history behind the fact that one tribe of Lallafell have no precivable pupil compared to the other tribe (dunesfolk and plainfolk respectevely). The same goes to expliain why some moon keepers have big pupils compared to the sun seekers, who show a cat-like pupils.I belive the main porpuse behind this is to make, if you think with other point of view, differenceable races within races.

We are getting new races after all lol.

Edited, Mar 31st 2010 11:07pm by Pavetl
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#12 Apr 01 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh another thread that discusses racial stats.
I would like there to be some difference other than purely aesthetic between the races, but I don't want it based around stats, if for example, in the eyes of the community my Lalafell can only excel as a conjurer or my Elezen as an archer, for whatever reason, that would be sad.
Oh, and what about noses,noses? Don't forget the Miqo'te!

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 11:15am by NumptyHunter
#13 Apr 01 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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those so-call different tribes within each race are just difference in physical/cosmetic appearance. i don't think there's gonna be any gamebreaking special racial ability.

eg. look at the ears of the forest elezen and the shade elezen. the shaders have longer ears than the foresters

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 12:14pm by cutsaw
#14 Apr 01 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I do hope there is a bit of flavour to the race options. Maybe it's in the form of abilities that each race can use? Hopefully it's nothing combat breaking. But even so I don't think the larger percentage of players really care about that. I've played plenty of games where there were different race abilities and advantages (WoW) but even so there was always a large variety of races/classes. Even in FFXI, I saw plenty of Galka Mages and they did a fantastic job, it wasn't something that really made much of a difference. Sure you'll have people who will pick a race based upon their class choices, but that's fine I think. Because it makes sense from an RP standpoint as well as a gameplay standpoint. And you'll have people who's main goal it is to break the mold and show everyone that in the end it's skill that really matters.

The main point is to not gimp a particular race from being able to be a certain class to the point where it's not effective which I do believe Square is avoiding this time around.

And anyway, do you really want to be playing with people who will toss you out of a group because you're not a Galka Warrior/Taru Black Mage etc? I think not.

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#15 Apr 01 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
I know it can be hard to balance things like race bonuses, but heck, its hard to make a MMORPG, I wish they'd take up the challenge, it would be fun.
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#16 Apr 01 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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I really hope there are some mechanical differences between races. I'm actually kinda disappointed that there are no stat difference. I realize realism has long been thrown out the window, but it just doesn't feel right to have a Roegaydn and a Lalafel have the same base strength. I think FFXI did it just fine. There were differences, and while a Galka WHM was certainly more challenging, it was far from impossible. I never met a group that turned down a Galka mage on race alone.
#17 Apr 01 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I never met a group that turned down a Galka mage on race alone.

You must have been on a nice server, I have been in countless parties that would not allow a Galka whm or a Taru pld or a Mithra war etc, and had to listen to people who played Elvaans go on and on about how they made the best DD, the best tanks, the best healers and even the best blm and smn because they died less. No racial stat bonuses tyvm.
#18 Apr 01 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I never met a group that turned down a Galka mage on race alone.


Same goes with me. I was even a taru nin, and a pld. I almost never played mage jobs. I played most melee/tank jobs. I've been complemented on my tanking skills. It was even easy to keep hate as a pld, and some fights the healer never had to heal me at all with my giant mp pool I had. Granted i stopped lvlin pld at 67, never got it to 75.

Fenrir was a nice server to be on.

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 5:14pm by Zalongamer
#19 Apr 01 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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As was said, skill counts more than race. A skilled Taru DRK will usually out damage an unskilled Elvaan DRK. Gear and proper merits help too, but you get the picture. I don't recall there being a real huge difference at Lv75 that really causes an issue, other than a large difference in HP and MP. But if a Galka WHM's Cure III is doing close to 300 while the Taru's are doing 240, the difference in MP doesn't matter too much. I've also seen Galka mages with MP+ gear and slowly swap out pieces as the MP is consumed. Skill matters more than racial traits.
#20 Apr 01 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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As was said, skill counts more than race.

That old chestnut!
While I agree with the sentiment, in FFxi gear counted more than either of those, both in your ability to maximise your skill, as a way to advertise your character as being "above the norm", and most fundamentally it made so much of a difference it could hardly be ignored especially at 75.
Lets hope FFxiv is less gear obessed than FFxi was/is and allows the player skill factor to really shine.
#21 Apr 01 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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The only downside to stat bonus differences in races is that it can lead to min-maxing. I've played D&D since 2nd edition (back when we still used THAC0) and I'll admit that all my combat characters (Fighters, Monks) have always been STR/DEX bonus races, my rogues have always been DEX races, my casters have always been INT/WIS races, in fact I can't think of many situations where my lowest stat -wasn't- CHA, except situations like Bard or Sorcerer. ****, I'd reroll until I got -at least two- 17/18s (or until the DM forcibly took the dice away from me) and whenever I was DMing, I'd let my players do the same.

I've never been one to ever play "handicapped" characters like Halfling Fighters or Orc casters or a Wizard with an INT of 10 who refuses to use any spells but illusions... One could argue that I've robbed myself of some potentially fun role playing sessions in this way, and you'd probably be right, but such is life (although my 3rd Edition INT 3 Gray Render Fighter was pretty **** fun).

At any rate, I'd love to see stat differences and non-stat (trait) differences. Night vision (at the expense of weaker day vision) or farther sight (at the expense of close combat accuracy bonuses, perhaps?) or similar things.

I'm sure a lot of people would end up min-maxing the **** out of it, but I have to admit that having all the races have NO difference whatsoever seems to make the game less fun to me; not because I can't min-max it (funnily enough, I'm LESS likely to min-max in an MMORPG than a tabletop RPG) but because it just seems unrealistic that racial discrepancy wouldn't give some races advantages over others, regardless of what those advantages are.
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#22 Apr 01 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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The event of min/maxing will of course accure. But it happens. But being good at something is actually pretty nice. To have your set role. Now a days everyone can do everything. Look at wow for example. I understand the point of watering everything down to the point that everyone can do everything and be just as good as anyone else. But after a point it starts to become really watered down and you start to loose alot of flavor. Which it seems like a lot of games in general are starting to loose flavor.... and I like flavor.
#23 Apr 01 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem really is finding the proper balance for everyone. Everyone wants some "flavor" in the game but no one wants to be discriminated against because their job doesn't excel in what another job excels in. It's time to face it: if you want there to be differences in races, then there will always exist some form of elitist discrimination if for no other reason than there will always be douchebags playing these games who look for any and every reason to say "I am the best because..." I don't really see this turning into a "have my cake and eat it too" situation, so if you want there to be interesting stat differences, than you have to accept that by choosing a job with this stat differences your gameplay will be effected. If you don't want to admit this or refuse to accept it, then you should probably vote against stat differences. I personally enjoy the stat differences because as much as I agree with Allegory's distinctions between RPG's and RPG's, I think that they are RPG's for a reason and they create backstories and characters for those exact reasons. If you really want to play whatever race you want despite the staff differences, you just have to put a little more effort in than other people. But doesn't that make it even sweeter when you come out on top despite other races with an advantage in your job of choice?
#24 Apr 02 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd be happy if the racial traits effected your quests and missions, and not just slightly different dialogue. Maybe similar end goals for everyone, but different routes to do them.. such as a Dunewalker knowing where to find an herd in the Desert, where a Shader would find it underground?

Then again, I don't know, sounds like a lot of work making 10 different scenarios for several quests.


Or maybe long lines of tribe specific quests. Those of us who want the flavor will get it, and those who could care less can just buy the rewards off of us when we're through with them.
#25 Apr 02 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
I think part of the confusing stems from the term "RPG" being used to describe two different genres. There are role-playing games and then there are role-playing games. Role-playing games are focused on role-playing, and the objective is to simulate a fanciful reality; in these games stats like systems where strength determines how much weight you can carry make more sense. In role-playing games the focus is on creating a mechanical game, and the superficial features are there to give it some context and aesthetic appeal; the board game battleship is nothing like real naval combat nor is it supposed to be.

Old MMORPGs had a lot of influence from old tabletop RPGs, where the emphasis was on role-play. However, I feel most new MMORPGs (including even FFXI) are more focused on the mechanical game.

Often times, overlap is rare and difficult, because many mechanics that may be realistic are irritating and frustrating outside of playing make believe, and many mechanics that are highly functional are entirely unrealistic.

I personally prefer RPGs (even though I've played a fair share of D&D). I find that RPGs when played for the mechanics are too cumbersome and fail quite a bit at achieving realism. So my super strong barbarian can carry 500 pounds of weapons because he's really strong, but how does he fight effectively while carrying a 10x10x10 foot bale of hay?


Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I do have to disagree (mostly not-seriously) on one point, though: D&D is not a RPG. ****, it's barely even functional as a game, and the RP side of the system is worse than some single-player action games I've played (Way of the Samurai, for example).

On topic:

I'd love to see some racial "fluff" mechanics in the game, provided they're relatively well-balanced and preferably have a minor impact on gameplay (a certain race being able to see slightly better at night, for example, would be OK in my book).
#26 Apr 02 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no problem with innate advantages at all so long as the distance can be closed with equity. For example, a Cat race has better vision and hearing-- fine, so long as there's some way for everyone to get that same benefit without any notable sacrifice.
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#27 Apr 03 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I do have to disagree (mostly not-seriously) on one point, though: D&D is not a RPG. ****, it's barely even functional as a game, and the RP side of the system is worse than some single-player action games I've played (Way of the Samurai, for example).


I think he means the P&P D&D game, not DDO or any of the comupter games.

Personaly I love the idea of bringing back actual racial differances, so long as it doesn't actualy effect game balance. Lowlight vision or better hearing are perfect, even higher weight allowances arn't a big deal, just so long as any combat binuses are kept down to the point that we aren't forced to play one race if we want to compete.
#28 Apr 04 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
I have no problem with innate advantages at all so long as the distance can be closed with equity. For example, a Cat race has better vision and hearing-- fine, so long as there's some way for everyone to get that same benefit without any notable sacrifice.

Better sense of smell not vision and hearing if the official website is to be believed, but otherwise I agree.
#29 Apr 04 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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I have no problem with innate advantages at all so long as the distance can be closed with equity. For example, a Cat race has better vision and hearing-- fine, so long as there's some way for everyone to get that same benefit without any notable sacrifice.


I like this idea.. Don't have a Shader Elezen to lead you through the dark? Use that potion you bought from an NPC for 100gil to increase your vision. Forgot the potion? Your Thaumaturge can cast a spell on the group to increase their vision. Don't have either? Well, it doesn't really matter anyway since you can still hear things lurking in the distance and there's nothing around that's going to jump out and overwhelm your group....

...

Or maybe there is. That's part of the fun though.. Surprise! It's a Wyrm!
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