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#1 Apr 04 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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This may seem a little strange, and I apologize for that, but I have to put a ‘little’ disclaimer on this because I am new to creating threads on this or any other forum. However I think I am on to something here so please bear with me.

I realized the other day that much of the content on the FFXIV board consists of ideas for MMO design in general that can’t necessarily be expected to fit in FFXIV. The result tends to be good ideas being discounted based solely on their compatibility with FFXIV.

But these ideas are still good ideas nonetheless. Yet they typically end up being discounted for reasons other than their merits, because of the nature of this board, which is to discuss FFXIV.

We know so little about the game (FFXIV) at this point that the idea of dismissing these ideas as pipe dreams ends up feeling a little convoluted IMO.

So I ask the FFXIV message board community to try out a little experiment with me that I’ve worked up, which is to use the long empty spaces between updates to discuss MMORPG design in general as opposed to simply our hopes for FFXIV. I’ve even gone so far as to add a little warning acronym to be included in the thread description for these sorts of ideas. [(TMMOC) or (Theoretical MMO Content,) which is an entirely negotiable term.] In the end my hope is that we can take advantage of the long pauses between content updates and come up with fresh, although perhaps irrelevant ideas, regarding what we, the consumers, have always hoped to see in the evolution of massively multi-player online games.
[End disclaimer!]
One of the things I have always been kind of irked by, if only slightly is the amount of trash mobs in dungeons. Maybe I’m the only one but I’ve always felt like I have no need to kill my 10,000th “Green Slime” just to get the opportunity to maybe kill the “Green Slime King”. The first time through a dungeon it’s not such a big deal, but after the tenth time through the “Slime Dungeon” I get to feeling a little insulted by the time sink inherent in this classic bit of MMO design.

Don’t get me wrong, I fully understand that this is intended to increase the difficulty of a dungeon and/or dungeon boss. But I would prefer that the difficulty was more a measure of skill as opposed to free time.

So rather than make a dungeon that will take say 40 minutes to get through the first time, and than say 25-30 minutes to get through the second time, why not make the dungeon consist of minimal trash and just bosses so that I can reasonably expect to get through it 2 or 3 times a day without making my eyes all bloodshot, thus increasing my odds of getting that 5%chance drop?

Again, please forgive me if this idea is completely idiotic, but also please try and see that I have intended these discussions to be a friendly exchange of off the wall ideas.

#2 Apr 04 2010 at 5:08 AM Rating: Good
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I've never liked the name "trash" used for mobs. I don't know why normal mobs are called that.

I think the monsters should be made more important to the dungeon if they are "trash" currently. Not just something to delay you from killing the boss, but something that helps you achieve that goal.

Like Salvage in FFXI. You start out with nothing, you kill normal mobs for cells that unlock your abilities, or to weaken the bosses (or make them spawn). You don't have to do it, but you won't get far if you don't kill them. You can choose at which point you should move on with the dungeon, you don't have to clear everything. When there's 100 min time limit, you have to prioritize.

Or like how Nyzul Isle works. Killing normal mobs is part of the whole event, not just the bosses. Get to floor 100 and you get additional benefits and not just boss drops. Normal mobs aren't just "trash" that you do for no other reason than they being in your way, there's an actual purpose beside getting to the boss in killing them.

Your idea is not bad either. There are definitely many ways to change things. I'd like to see "trash mobs" not being used as a term in XIV if it can be avoided though.
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#3 Apr 04 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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I like having more options in a game besides just leveling, farming and engame content. I think WoW did a great job with "Battlegrounds" to promote PvP enviornments, but went overboard with it with the implementation of arena. It got to the point where PvE suffered because of PvP content.

I think a healthy balance is needed. Not a free for all PvP "realm" feel so much as a extra side thing you can do to kill time.
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#4 Apr 04 2010 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you for replying in an informative and unhateful way. It is very easy for threads like this to devolve into a debate as to whether people should have even liked their favored MMO in the first place. My response to all of these notions is that FFXI met the demands of the market more than thouroughly at the time of it's release and for an extended period of time after. And anyone who tries to say that FFXI was never any good is just diluding theirself.

I quit playing FFXI just after CoP so anything after that I am not entirely familiar with. but if FFXI has come up with a good solution to this problem I would absolutely love to hear it described.

Furthermore I didn't intend to badmouth FFXI by any means. It was my first MMORPG and I will always consider myself an FFXI vet as opposed to anything else. But in the end it will also end up being the game I most compare other MMORPGS to.

What I mean to say is FFXI was an absolutely excellent game that led to my passion for MMO's in general. I have no intent to try and undo the passion and positive experiences that others and myself have had with it, I merely hoped that the community could help come up with content for an ideal (if not impossible) online game.

Also I apperently double posted my first thread which I whole heartedly appologize for. I'm new to posting threads, please be kind and take my message into consideration rather than my delivery. /bow

Thank you.

#5 Apr 04 2010 at 5:52 AM Rating: Good
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Me again, and hopefully I'm not ******** up my own thread, but I'm long winded, so my original message tends to get jumbled up with a bunch of fluff, for which I appologize.

If you will allow me to reiterate, I would like to hear peoples thoughts not only on my "trash mob" idea. But my TMMOC idea as well.

By no means judge these first posters on this clarification however as they have both articulately and concisely presented their opinions.

It was my own communication error that led to the misunderstanding.

In the end I want an evaluation of the TMMOC idea to be the priority with my own little added concept second.

Again, please forgivr my n00b approach, and don't fault the above posters.

Thank you for your patience.

Also Hyanmen, I agree that the term Trash Mob isn' the best term. I merely used it as the accepted veracular. Although, it didn't become so by accident. 8)
#6 Apr 04 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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Its a good idea. I regularly check these forums for updates(along with a few other sites), and when all the hype has calmed, its really boring. Dicussing features, and how they might be involved in a game like "Final Fantasy" or even in other MMO's(such as your thread alludes to) would be a great thing to talk about.
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#7 Apr 04 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
I'd like to see boss mobs (NM's, HNM's, etc...) work in an entirely different way all together.
Well, TBH, i'd like to see a change to all mob behavior. It just doesn't seem so realistic, when watching mobs walking in circles in the woods. Here are a few ideas i would like to see implemented in MMO's:

1) Give mobs full range of movement. Rather than having certain areas containing certain levels of mobs, let mobs of all levels roam around the world. This may be a bit hardcore, but i think it would keep people on their toes.

2) Let Boss mobs roam, and give archer/thief/hunter type classes a tracking ability of some sort. Having boss mobs spawn in the same spot every time creates a cluster of hopefuls trying for the same drop. It breeds bad practice over time and just doesn't work anymore.

I just want to see a better mob AI over all i guess. I think having to hunt NM's is much much more fun then camping for 8 hours. Also, having mobs of all levels everywhere, would help to break up the monotony of xp camps, or XP'ing in the same areas all the time.

Edit: Typo

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 10:05am by Tenfooterten
#8 Apr 04 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Interesting...

I think this very problem was solved simply by adjusting spawn times in other games, However I find the any monster, anywhere idea somewhat intruging, though perhaps too broad.

What do you think about any monster of a type being capable of spawning in the location of a monster with the same type. For example, "Leaping Lizzy" being able to spawn wherever lizards of the same model spawn?

Perhaps a little sloppy, but they could put in say a ten level window or something so lizzy could spawn in any zone where for example lvl 10-20 lizards of that same model can spawn?

Just an idea, please let me know your thoughts.
#9 Apr 04 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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2) Let Boss mobs roam, and give archer/thief/hunter type classes a tracking ability of some sort. Having boss mobs spawn in the same spot every time creates a cluster of hopefuls trying for the same drop. It breeds bad practice over time and just doesn't work anymore.


Something different from how SE developed the HNM's of WoTG?

The mobs can pop anywhere in the expansion areas, and the repop time fluctuates a lot. It's very hard to camp them.

It's not really roaming per se, but the mobs move around, and there's no "Aery effect" like this. I don't know how well it works because I never really camped HNM's, but I bet it's an improvement.

But I think that only works for higher level HNM's. As for normal NM's, I only hope there would be something else to do while camping so it doesn't feel like waste of time if you don't get claim, the spawn rate could be faster (not something like Stroper chyme's 6mins, but 30mins~1h) and instead of ~20% drop rate, the drop rate could be lowered to 10% but every time you kill the mob you get a "point" and when you have 10, you can turn them in to an NPC which gives you your desired drop. That way the drop rate is kept the same, but some amount of randomness is taken away, and people don't feel like wasting their time even if they don't get their drop.

Right now it's basically "all or nothing". It could definitely see some improvements.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 3:31pm by Hyanmen
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#10 Apr 04 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
2) Let Boss mobs roam, and give archer/thief/hunter type classes a tracking ability of some sort. Having boss mobs spawn in the same spot every time creates a cluster of hopefuls trying for the same drop. It breeds bad practice over time and just doesn't work anymore.


Something different from how SE developed the HNM's of WoTG?

The mobs can pop anywhere in the expansion areas, and the repop time fluctuates a lot. It's very hard to camp them.

It's not really roaming per se, but the mobs move around, and there's no "Aery effect" like this. I don't know how well it works because I never really camped HNM's, but I bet it's an improvement.
It's sort of a curse, while at the same time being a blessing. A curse in the sense that you have a linkshell full of people who want items off of them but you can't really schedule around them since they're so random, so if they spawn and you don't have people online, that sucks. But it's also a blessing as it's hard for one group to monopolize it.
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#11 Apr 04 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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It's sort of a curse, while at the same time being a blessing. A curse in the sense that you have a linkshell full of people who want items off of them but you can't really schedule around them since they're so random, so if they spawn and you don't have people online, that sucks. But it's also a blessing as it's hard for one group to monopolize it.


Yep.. at least they're sellable this time. Even if you're out of luck camping wise, money talks.

And some kind of rotation is good for the game's stability, although for the single player it might be seen as an annoyance. But eh, not like those mobs were meant to be accessible by just anyone =P.
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#12 Apr 04 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
Gasgiant wrote:
Interesting...

I think this very problem was solved simply by adjusting spawn times in other games, However I find the any monster, anywhere idea somewhat intruging, though perhaps too broad.

What do you think about any monster of a type being capable of spawning in the location of a monster with the same type. For example, "Leaping Lizzy" being able to spawn wherever lizards of the same model spawn?

Perhaps a little sloppy, but they could put in say a ten level window or something so lizzy could spawn in any zone where for example lvl 10-20 lizards of that same model can spawn?

Just an idea, please let me know your thoughts.


Thats another thing i was thinking of. Mob spawn points. It maybe too difficult to make mobs spawn anywhere, but the spawn point is less important since mobs will just leave the spawn area. I also think that the lottery spawn should be a thing of the past. Maybe make NM spawns random or under certain weather / element conditions.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 11:51am by Tenfooterten
#13 Apr 04 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I always liked the idea of dynamis as a model for dungeons, (just with no lag and improved drops)its much more fun than simply walking through a cave beating up the same mobs over and over until a boss pops, and eliminates the need for camping mobs which is a retarded practice imo.
As FFxiv is oriented around group combat I think it would work well because the concept of a dynamis dungeon is so simple and already familiar to many of us and instanced dungeons are a much better way to obtain loot than the old fashioned open dungeon.
#14 Apr 04 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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You want to remove the timesinks of having to kill '100 green slimes' every time through the dungeon? I myself don't mind the timesinks, maybe it's because I have a bit more free time on my hand than most, or maybe because I like the old-style MMO style of games, I'm not sure. But if SE makes this game too easy to the point where crafting a skill to 100 in a day, or doing all dungeons in a few weeks and getting all the drops in that time frame, I'm not sure how many people can stay interested. Let's be honest, the reason a lot of people keep playing is so they can get awesome loots and they like the feeling of achieving those goals. Remember how you felt when you got your COP ring? That was fantastic for me at least. It took me a long time and it was very rewarding when I got it. If getting gear is too easy (a la WoW) and quests are too easy to finish, how can anyone really feel any accomplishment? People may say the glory is in the boss battle, but once someone beats it, they'll post the 'how to' guide for it and it will become fairly routine. The fun is in the journey to the fight, not just the fight itself.
#15 Apr 04 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It's sort of a curse, while at the same time being a blessing. A curse in the sense that you have a linkshell full of people who want items off of them but you can't really schedule around them since they're so random, so if they spawn and you don't have people online, that sucks. But it's also a blessing as it's hard for one group to monopolize it.


Yep.. at least they're sellable this time. Even if you're out of luck camping wise, money talks.

And some kind of rotation is good for the game's stability, although for the single player it might be seen as an annoyance. But eh, not like those mobs were meant to be accessible by just anyone =P.
What I don't understand was why they even bothered to add a lot of that stuff, especially considering how it is generally not better than things I got in Rise of the Zilart. I picked the game back up over the weekend, as a friend of mine informed me that Dynamis currency was so stupidly cheap that I could probably finish my Yoichinoyumi in a few days' time, and I was browsing the item listings here and noticed a lot of those things (With a few exceptions, like that PUP chestpiece) that it did not outclass Usukane or god gear.

Hopefully they realize that in 14, the challenge should be relative to the gear you get. Because there are quite a few forgotten NMs in XI that are really rather obnoxious.
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#16 Apr 04 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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What I don't understand was why they even bothered to add a lot of that stuff, especially considering how it is generally not better than things I got in Rise of the Zilart. I picked the game back up over the weekend, as a friend of mine informed me that Dynamis currency was so stupidly cheap that I could probably finish my Yoichinoyumi in a few days' time, and I was browsing the item listings here and noticed a lot of those things (With a few exceptions, like that PUP chestpiece) that it did not outclass Usukane or god gear.

Hopefully they realize that in 14, the challenge should be relative to the gear you get. Because there are quite a few forgotten NMs in XI that are really rather obnoxious.


sh*t is situational. There are few things that are "generally better" than some other piece.

The challenge, is relative to the gear you get. Usukane takes a long-*** time to get. Had they introduced something that beats Usukane, that's gear gone down the drain that involved lots of work to obtain it.

If the events were easier and it didn't take so long to obtain these things, then it would be fine to introduce new equipment that outclasses the old. But it's not fun to see that happen after 2 years of work.

Sidegrades are okay though. Don't like event X? Get similar piece from event Y. Makes people not carbon copies of each other, too. Everyone's at least someway unique.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 5:06pm by Hyanmen
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#17 Apr 04 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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A lot of that stuff isn't just sidegrades, it's a lot worse.
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#18 Apr 04 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Probably easier to get too, then. Not only the hardest obtainable pieces need sidegrades, I think =P.
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#19 Apr 04 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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If the events were easier and it didn't take so long to obtain these things, then it would be fine to introduce new equipment that outclasses the old. But it's not fun to see that happen after 2 years of work.

Well you don't want to be making things easier at all just less time consuming. It is inevitable in an MMO that some gear will become obsolete. The alternative of putting the best gear in the game from day one and never having anything better than it would be boring as ****.
#20 Apr 04 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Phasing out gear has worked for just about every other game that's ever existed. Which is why I never understood why XI was so resistant to the same change. It's healthy.



That and I'm ******* sick of staring at Haubergeon.
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But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#21 Apr 04 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Well you don't want to be making things easier at all just less time consuming. It is inevitable in an MMO that some gear will become obsolete. The alternative of putting the best gear in the game from day one and never having anything better than it would be boring as ****.


Things become easier as time goes on, no matter what. Think Kirin. Or Tiamat.

Players get better. "Hard" content is not so "hard" anymore after few years. And if it's already less time consuming than rest of the events, on top of being easy too, it makes other events obsolete.

RoTZ itemization ruined the game. Look at DRG and how it's gear progressed- that's one of the jobs that wasn't ruined by Zilart (because it was ignored there). I think that kind of gear progression is what this system is really capable of.

Devs took some time to figure that out though. They just had to add those O kotes Haubies Kraken Clubs D rings and relics right off the bat, did they... well, I wouldn't blame them for anything else but for being inexperienced.

I wouldn't call phasing gear any healthier system. Constant cap rises are required or it won't work. Even WoW is slowing down on the whole vertical progression thing.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 6:05pm by Hyanmen
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#22 Apr 04 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Well you don't want to be making things easier at all just less time consuming. It is inevitable in an MMO that some gear will become obsolete. The alternative of putting the best gear in the game from day one and never having anything better than it would be boring as ****.


Things become easier as time goes on, no matter what. Think Kirin. Or Tiamat.

Players get better. "Hard" content is not so "hard" anymore after few years. And if it's already less time consuming than rest of the events, on top of being easy too, it makes other events obsolete.

RoTZ itemization ruined the game. Look at DRG and how it's gear progressed- that's one of the jobs that wasn't ruined by Zilart (because it was ignored there). I think that kind of gear progression is what this system is really capable of.

Devs took some time to figure that out though. They just had to add those O kotes Haubies Kraken Clubs D rings and relics right off the bat, did they... well, I wouldn't blame them for anything else but for being inexperienced.

I wouldn't call phasing gear any healthier system. Constant cap rises are required or it won't work. Even WoW is slowing down on the whole vertical progression thing.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 6:05pm by Hyanmen


To say "I just spent 2 years getting this item because it was the best and now its not /boohoo" is no way to be aproaching an MMO, they are going to change no matter how much you seem to dislike the idea, you just need to accept it and move on, that way you don't get ****** off when something new and better comes along you get excited instead.
#23 Apr 04 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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To say "I just spent 2 years getting this item because it was the best and now its not /boohoo" is no way to be aproaching an MMO, they are going to change no matter how much you seem to dislike the idea, you just need to accept it and move on, that way you don't get ****** off when something new and better comes along you get excited instead.


Well Square didn't seem to think that way, and I'm glad for that.

Although it's not the traditional way to approach an MMO, I'd also like to be able to "finish" the game and not play it until I get all cynical and bored and quit out of frustration. When new, better things are introduced every update, can't really say you can.
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#24 Apr 04 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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I stopped playing XI because I did "finish" it and got bored of it. I think the only two things I didn't have when I quit originally were Yoichinoyumi and Amanomurakumo.
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Did you lose faith?
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But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#25 Apr 04 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I stopped playing XI because I did "finish" it and got bored of it. I think the only two things I didn't have when I quit originally were Yoichinoyumi and Amanomurakumo.


I find that much better than quitting because you're bored (and not finished) with the game, honestly.

Every game becomes boring one day. Would be nice to know that once I finish it, it becomes boring. And not that I'll become bored of this game, but never be able to really "finish" it either way.

Releasing new things to do won't really "fix" that. I don't think there's any "fix"... or that there should be.

We all have different thoughts on how long you should play the game that it's "enough"... Some don't even have such time scale, but I feel that if an MMO can last me good 3-4 years, by then I should be finished with it or near to. After that it just becomes a chore.

But I guess that's just me.
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#26 Apr 04 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Things I like and examples of games that contain them.

-Deep character customization (Aion)
-Flying mounts (WoW)
-Ground mounts (WoW) I would include FFXI but having to rent sucked, and the chocobo whistle with charges was lame.
-Questing for EXP / Group and Solo (EQ , WoW) I would include Aion, but it's quests were shallow and boring.
-Epic group Boss battles (FFXI , WoW)
-Flightpaths (WoW)
-Deep Crafting System (FFXI,WoW)
-PvP (Aion,WoW,DaoC) Although it's not an MMO I think Diablo II (pre white rings, etc.) had the most enjoyable PvP.
-Constantly evolving earnable gear sets (WoW Tier sets) FFXI AF was great but replaced quickly in most cases or skipped completely.
-All classes on one Character (FFXI for sure)
-Diverse Races/Lore (FFXI,WoW)
-GOOD low level dungeon action (WoW)
-Running,Jumping,Swimming (WoW)
-Extensive emote system (not important but fun when standing in town. FFXI's were ok, WoW's were better)
-Semi-fast paced combat mixed with strategy (no one has really accomplished this yet)
-Seasonal Events (FFXI,WoW) FFXI's summerfest was one of the more memorable ones for me, the fireworks/music. fun fun.
-Ability chains (Aion) using 1,2,3 > big 4 was super fun when you could pull it off.
-Auction Houses (FFXI,WoW,Aion) WoW did it best imo.
-Guild System (WoW,Aion,FFXI,many others) I prefered Aion's for this.
-Non cartoony graphics (FFXI,Aion,Vanguard.. pretty much everything except for WAR,LOTR,and WoW) FFXIV is looking perfect so far.

That's all I can think of right now.

If you actually read that wall of text, you'd think I lean towards WoW as my fav MMO. In fact FFXI was my favorite by far.. but I couldn't help but wish each time that I came back that FFXI would have contained some of these more modern and fun features. When I saw Aion I had hopes that it may end up being the best of both worlds, but alas I was disappointed along with many others. I have good feelings about FFXIV, and I know I'll love it just as I did FFXI. It's just too bad that SE pigeon-holed it to basically replicate FFXI's physics from what we've seen. The battle system seems more interesting and revamped, graphics are amazing, story will be rich.. but I'm really bummed out that in 2010 they didn't consider jumping and swimming. I love what it does to the immersion of a game, I really do.. It seems though that at least 60% of the community from FFXI and old school FF players are against it. I'd rather them leave it out to keep the majority of the future community happy, but to me it sure is a shame.






Edited, Apr 4th 2010 3:57pm by GuardianFaith
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#27 Apr 04 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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I always liked the idea of dynamis as a model for dungeons, [...] its much more fun than simply walking through a cave beating up the same mobs over and over until a boss pops, and eliminates the need for camping mobs which is a retarded practice imo.
As FFxiv is oriented around group combat I think it would work well [...] and instanced dungeons are a much better way to obtain loot than the old fashioned open dungeon.


I'm in favor of this idea. Or anything at all, really. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that I never really "raided" or "cleared" any dungeons in XI. The dungeon areas were EXP camps, usually populated with things already dead. I can't really recall any reason aside from the occasional NM or AF quest that would lead you to expect anything other than those EXP parties. Obviously you could count Dynamis, Nyzul, Salvage, and Assaults, but I would like to see dungeon content more often throughout the levels. Back when I began XI as a San d'Orian I often found myself solo leveling in Ghelsba, slowly advancing my way toward the inner workings of the outpost until I eventually reached Fort Ghelsba. Unfortunately for me there was a large jump in levels once I crossed the zone and I realized there was really nothing there for me, I would even have to come back after gaining some levels if I wanted to explore at all. And right there, even way back in 2004, there was a couple friends at the entrance to the fort camped for EXP.


Quote:
-Deep character customization (Aion) XIV's customization sounds promising

-Flying mounts (WoW) That's another thread entirely

-Ground mounts (WoW) a personal Chocobo in XI was great, nevermind the whistle, but I can also say it took too much work to expect everyone to do it

-Questing for EXP / Group and Solo (EQ , WoW)

-Epic group Boss battles (FFXI , WoW)

-Flightpaths (WoW) XIV will have the Aetheryte crystals

-Deep Crafting System (FFXI,WoW) Did they upgrade WoW's crafting so it took more than a week to master?

-PvP (Aion,WoW,DaoC) Ballista Royale in XI was great, I would love to see cross-server competition more often..new unique rewards each time

-Constantly evolving earnable gear sets (WoW Tier sets) Yet another thread entirely of it's own. XI basically ended with Salvage sets to many people, yet there were several side(down)-grades. XI's new magian system, will some gear be customizable? I'd like to see a mix of the two in XIV.

-All classes on one Character (FFXI for sure) XIV for sure

-Diverse Races/Lore (FFXI,WoW) Partially another thread. XIV will be diverse, but how diverse? Male Miqo'te? How far will the lore go, will it be all fluff or introduce unique tribal traits?

-GOOD low level dungeon action (WoW) As I talked about above, I'd love to see this in XIV.

-Running,Jumping,Swimming (WoW) First off, running? Pretty sure everything gets that. :) Second, you're very good at picking subjects that have had, or need, their own threads

-Extensive emote system We'll have to wait and see how much they toyed around in the animation dept.

-Semi-fast paced combat mixed with strategy Perhaps XIV will pull this off? There may or may not be some devices that may be getting tested in a couple days...

-Seasonal Events (FFXI,WoW) You've got to hand it to SE here. They managed to create several unique seasonal events for XI, though unfortunately after several years it's eventually the same exact things.

-Ability chains (Aion) I liked the chains from Aion as well, perhaps we'll see some of that in XIV.. aside from Player 1 > Player 2 ability chains.

-Auction Houses (FFXI,WoW,Aion) Absolutely no idea what they're planning for XIV, do I smell a thread on this subject?

-Guild System (WoW,Aion,FFXI,many others) I like the idea of guild levels and a shared bank that you could allow custom member levels access. Being able to remove people who are offline, and see some information about them is great too. I am fond of XI's ability to switch between multiple groups at will, this enables you to have your normal group whom you do major events with, and a smaller group for everything else.


That's longer than I intended it to be so I'll leave it at that. Basically, sure.. let's coin your little phrase TMMOC. Anything to allow some of us to have discussions about what we think works or not, what we like about it, and maybe a little of what we hope to see.. all in threads that aren't stomped by those of us who wish to inform others that we know nothing about XIV and we should give our hopes up. You never know, Square Enix is watching.. they just might see something they like.
#28 Apr 04 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the things that I find helps make some games last longer would be a PvP system that is competitive and gives some rewards. And when I say PvP, I don't necessarily mean one player versus one player, or that they are fighting each other.

I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. Although it was not something anyone payed much attention to, especially after burn parties with level sync started, I think it was still a nice system. It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights.

What I want to see in FFXIV would be FF tactics advanced Clans. The clan system in FFT:A would be monumental fun if it were possible to pull off in an MMO. Imagine a group controlling an area and getting something possibly like low price raw ingredients for items (like having a conquest region in FFXI, and getting accorns and milicorn and such). Have all of this in the clan shop in one central location, or possibly have a clan setup that does not have it's own home nation, and having a clan room in each nation, with a vendor NPC from every area under your clan's control.

Again, don't make these exclusive. Also, have a way of making ownership either from clan points from doing quests and killing mobs in a region OR possibly a direct assault with another clan in a "Clan Match" Where 2 clan's PvP in one area.

That would be a large amount of fun, while not turning FFXIV into some lame gankfest like aion.
#29 Apr 04 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. [...] It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to it either ;) It was Ballista, and I honestly am not really sure how it worked. Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nation's influence for the next Conquest tally. If a nation you did at least one Conquest in was under your nation's control that next tally, you would receive conquest points depending on which region it was, which also determined the level caps. I've actually tried to do some Conquest lately, but having to find people all from the same nation made that difficult.

Quote:
What I want to see in FFXIV would be FF tactics advanced Clans. [...] Imagine a group controlling an area and getting something possibly like low price raw ingredients for items (like having a conquest region in FFXI, and getting accorns and milicorn and such). Have all of this in the clan shop in one central location, or possibly have a clan setup that does not have it's own home nation, and having a clan room in each nation, with a vendor NPC from every area under your clan's control.


There was actually something similar to this implemented in Ultima Online shortly before I stopped playing. From what I remember, the guilds could PvP each other earning not only points based on their activity but could also take control of large buildings within each town. The buildings I believe were intended to house player vendors and gain some gear..somehow. My memories are a little obfuscated, maybe it was guilds part of the Chaos/Order factions and not individual guilds.. and the gear could have simply been the shields that you could obtain by being part of those factions. I can't really recall, but I do remember it looking like fun and it's similar to what you are talking about.

The only downside is that opposing groups could attack your buildings at random and you wouldn't even be around to defend them. I've actually not played tatics to know exactly what you're thinking of, but I like it anyway.
#30 Apr 04 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
Quote:
I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. [...] It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to it either ;) It was Ballista, and I honestly am not really sure how it worked. Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nation's influence for the next Conquest tally. If a nation you did at least one Conquest in was under your nation's control that next tally, you would receive conquest points depending on which region it was, which also determined the level caps. I've actually tried to do some Conquest lately, but having to find people all from the same nation made that difficult.



I think you mean Garrison to be specific with regards to the activity other than Ballista.
#31 Apr 04 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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my ideas on NMs


1. The Grandfather

In a castle full of ... lets say Mandys.. there will be 3 NMs
if you kill mandys there (doesnt have to be a certain amount or a certain area in the castle) a Mother Mandy and Father Mandy will pop out claimed from nowhere and come smack you or your party, because you are killing their children. the Mother Mandy and Father mandy will be bigger in sizes, they will flee and hide after killing one of your party members. if you manage to kill either Mother or Father Mandy, Grandpa Mandy (even bigger in size) will pop up from nowhere claimed flee and smack you or your party.


2. Special Unit

similar scenario as "The grandpa", in a beastmen like the castle Orztroja(sp.) if one of the NM Yagudos got attacked and dying, they have an ability to "CALL FOR HELP" so a group of 20+ yagudos will run to you and help their fellow yagudo.


3. the tiny bully

have a very tiny mandy or chigoes NM keep killing huge mobs that it sees in the area, since in FFXIV, we will see cropses lying on the ground (for a short while?), players could then track down that NM and kill it


and as previous posters mentioned, having the NM roam around the whole world will be great as well

also in major cities, all NPCs will move indoor because the mobs will attack ppl like they are in whitegate
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#32 Apr 04 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Quote:
Siks wrote:
Quote:
I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. [...] It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to it either ;) It was Ballista, and I honestly am not really sure how it worked. Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nation's influence for the next Conquest tally. If a nation you did at least one Conquest in was under your nation's control that next tally, you would receive conquest points depending on which region it was, which also determined the level caps. I've actually tried to do some Conquest lately, but having to find people all from the same nation made that difficult.


I think you mean Garrison to be specific with regards to the activity other than Ballista.


No, I meant Ballista. Garrison was an event you did with friends at the outposts. You would farm RA/EX items dropped from monsters of that region, which was then used to spawn a number of NPCs (depending on party/alliance size) to assist you in defending the outpost from waves of monsters. The rewards were lackluster and most people didn't pay attention to it, so I can see where you might be mixed up. Many people have never heard of both, let alone participated in them. ;)
#33 Apr 04 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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A feature that allows you to flag yourself for certain quests and missions via the quest log.

For example you have a list of quests/missions in your quest log and next to each one you have a tick box, if you tick the box it will flag you for looking for a party to complete that paticular quest.

Many MMO's have tried this with varying degree's of success, but its normally been an after thought which has been added/patched in and nobody has used it because they were already used to the old ways of shouting in trade or zone chat, either that or it was hidden away or just overly complex.

Not really a new idea but one that needs to be refined.

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#34 Apr 04 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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I've played EVE, FFXI, LOTRO, Aion, Vanguard, EQ2, WAR, and AoC. That doesn't necessarily mean that I've spent a lot of time in all of them, but I've played each of them enough to know what I like and don't like about each.

For me, one of the most important things for a game to have is a variety of things to do at all levels, and especially at level cap. Doing quests over and over again gets boring, as does raiding, or any other activity if you keep at it long enough. A variety of options keeps things lively and retains your interest at the game.

EVE did not have a variety of things to do. You either mined, played the market, or lived out in lowsec for PvP. Upon reaching level cap in LOTRO, there really wasn't much of anything to do, so it goes in the same boat as EVE. FFXI at least had a lot of different activities ranging from solo activities to large group events. This gives me hope for XIV, because the last thing I'd want to do is get bored easily with a game that has so much potential.

If anything, this is my main beef with all of the MMOs I've played (with the exception of XI). Once you get to max level, or even on your way there, there's only so many things you can do, and after a while, those activities become boring, or in other words, a grind. Now, grind is a staple of the MMO genre, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. What makes the difference though is how the grind is disguised. If the activities are fun and engaging, that makes it much better and retains players. If you're obviously doing the same thing over and over again, it's going to wear you out and you're much more likely to take a break from the game, or outright quit.

This is thinking really far ahead in regards to XIV, but it's something I think all MMO developers need to take a look at. Obviously, they want players to stay playing, but unless they provide activities for people that span a large spectrum of interests, they're going to end up with burnt out players. I'm crossing my fingers that Squenix will continue to give players a lot of things to do, so here's for hoping.
#35 Apr 05 2010 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
Quote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Quote:
Siks wrote:
Quote:
I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. [...] It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to it either ;) It was Ballista, and I honestly am not really sure how it worked. Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nation's influence for the next Conquest tally. If a nation you did at least one Conquest in was under your nation's control that next tally, you would receive conquest points depending on which region it was, which also determined the level caps. I've actually tried to do some Conquest lately, but having to find people all from the same nation made that difficult.


I think you mean Garrison to be specific with regards to the activity other than Ballista.


No, I meant Ballista. Garrison was an event you did with friends at the outposts. You would farm RA/EX items dropped from monsters of that region, which was then used to spawn a number of NPCs (depending on party/alliance size) to assist you in defending the outpost from waves of monsters. The rewards were lackluster and most people didn't pay attention to it, so I can see where you might be mixed up. Many people have never heard of both, let alone participated in them. ;)
What truly made Garrison ******* stupid was the level caps.
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#36 Apr 05 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
Quote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Quote:
Siks wrote:
Quote:
I think conquest was one form of PvP, and people did pay attention to it because of the rewards for it. [...] It allowed for people to compete against eachother in a non direct way that still allowed for bragging rights


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to it either ;) It was Ballista, and I honestly am not really sure how it worked. Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nation's influence for the next Conquest tally. If a nation you did at least one Conquest in was under your nation's control that next tally, you would receive conquest points depending on which region it was, which also determined the level caps. I've actually tried to do some Conquest lately, but having to find people all from the same nation made that difficult.


I think you mean Garrison to be specific with regards to the activity other than Ballista.


No, I meant Ballista. Garrison was an event you did with friends at the outposts. You would farm RA/EX items dropped from monsters of that region, which was then used to spawn a number of NPCs (depending on party/alliance size) to assist you in defending the outpost from waves of monsters. The rewards were lackluster and most people didn't pay attention to it, so I can see where you might be mixed up. Many people have never heard of both, let alone participated in them. ;)

No sorry but you wrote "Conquest was done with groups of friends against popped monsters in the old areas to increase your nations influence for the next Conquest tally."
Thats not in anyway Ballista, and Garrison ( Edit: or Expeditionary Force) are the only other things it could be, and yes Garrison was terrible. :P

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 10:17am by NumptyHunter
#37 Apr 05 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Garrison gear had a couple of good pieces in it though. it's a shame that they sold for millions as no one ever did garrison.

It could be that you mean the thing where you go to a beastman controlled area and fight mobs or something as a group, getting teleported there from the gate guard. I forget what they call this, like expeditionary forces or something. I've never done that one, but it seemed like it would be fun.

but yeah, think of everything that went along with conquest, and instead of having the 3 starting nations be the owners of the areas, have them be game clans. Either make it determined by points gained from exp/quest/whatever, or you could have a group vs group like a battle with 2 alliances fighting eachother. that would be neat. Again, Items could also be available based on the home nation of the clan (if your home nation has a clan in charge, the NPC for those items would appear in your home nation, or would have the items in your home nation.

Either way, it could be fun to have clans in this game to function something like that. Also, if they could be separate from linkshells or if we could make chat rooms ourselves, that would be nice.
#38 Apr 05 2010 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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MetalSmith wrote:
Garrison gear had a couple of good pieces in it though. it's a shame that they sold for millions as no one ever did garrison.

It could be that you mean the thing where you go to a beastman controlled area and fight mobs or something as a group, getting teleported there from the gate guard. I forget what they call this, like expeditionary forces or something. I've never done that one, but it seemed like it would be fun.

but yeah, think of everything that went along with conquest, and instead of having the 3 starting nations be the owners of the areas, have them be game clans. Either make it determined by points gained from exp/quest/whatever, or you could have a group vs group like a battle with 2 alliances fighting eachother. that would be neat. Again, Items could also be available based on the home nation of the clan (if your home nation has a clan in charge, the NPC for those items would appear in your home nation, or would have the items in your home nation.

Either way, it could be fun to have clans in this game to function something like that. Also, if they could be separate from linkshells or if we could make chat rooms ourselves, that would be nice.


sounds like a good idea, but then things like this might make certain "clans" become big and start monopolise ( I think).
and the smaller one might not even have a chance to compete?
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#39 Apr 05 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay new ideas it is!

MMO Idea 1:
I would like it if MMO's were more like single players games in that when you've completed all that there is to do you move on to the next MMO or create a new character who would have a different experience because they picked a different race or class. The time it would take to complete everything there is to do in the game should take anywhere from 2 to 3 years as to give developers enough time to create the next game. During that time the possibility for extra content and updates is possible. But the content would not be for end game, but events that would take place on a timed basis and be accessible to all levels of player. The server would have an ongoing storyline that would end after a certain time period. And to keep the game population going, new servers would be released ever so often so that people who are new to the game could play the game from the beginning. This way an MMO doesn't have to be all about the end game and more focus is put on the journey and the final conclusion. If the developers need time to create content then they could stagger it slightly, I just don't like the idea of reaching "MAX Level" and getting all this really cool stuff, only to have another "MAX Level" to be brought along that is even more epic the the one before. It's like putting a Carrot in front of a donkey.


Now more on topic:
I've always been of the mindset that the most fun in an MMO has always been about the adventure and then the reward. You should be challenged and death should be possible. This gives us a sense of danger and takes away from the "I WANT EPIC LEWTS" mentality.

Challenging content should have fantastic rewards, and the content should be fun to participate in.
Less Challenging content should have less fantastic rewards but should still be relevant for people to want to do it. One idea is to have multiple lower challenges lead up to a greater reward. This makes it so even people who aren't as skilled or don't have larger chunks of time to play with are still able to achieve something great and rewarding without the need to be logged in for an entire afternoon/evening. (WoW had a few of these in the forms of quests that you could complete that would lead up to a decent blue item.)

I don't like the idea of Farm content and it should never need to exist. The problem is that for end game people need something to do while they wait for new content to arrive. One way of working this out is the way FFXI did it which is make some rare and powerful items so rare and hard to achieve that people would spend months just trying to get it. But once those items become less rare and less powerful the players need something to do. I think FFXI did it right in giving us missions to work on. Each Mission was a challenge and it led up to some really great awards and more access to services within the game (Airships etc.) The problem it had though was that it made some of the missions so obscure that most North American gamers had to ask for help or look up an FAQ just to complete it. Make the missions challenging but make it a bit more obvious what is we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to do it.

Oh! another good idea that goes more in line with solving the problem the original poster had with Farm Mobs.
Consider this:

A Dungeon/Instance is a much larger thing and involves a much larger story. This goes back to the way Single player RPG's work where you make progression with Save points. Lets say that you and a group of friends want to complete a dungeon. The whole Dungeon as a whole takes a long time to complete (2 or 3 days total. Think of D&D in that it may take a couple nightly sessions to complete) and has a very thought out story and event structure with challenges and mini bosses along the way with Camp/Crystal spots along the way. At each camp you can stop and save your progression and exit the dungeon if you wish to restock on supplies or do whatever you want until you all decide to return and continue on. This is very similar to how Raids work in WoW but I'm thinking on a smaller scale with a far more involved story and more variety in gameplay then simply, Trash Mobs > Boss > Trash Mobs > Boss. And once you've done it once, you're not able to get the same fantastic rewards you received the first time but you'll still receive exp, gil and some less amazing items in case you're helping out a friend but you would not be able to start the adventure without a new person in the group who hasn't done it.

P.S. Sorry, I talk how I think.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 3:21pm by Xebius
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#40 Apr 05 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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Agh, my mistake. I meant Expeditionary Force, not Conquest.. and seems there's a misunderstanding about Ballista, I was stating what the PvP event was called. *shrug* It doesn't matter anyway, we're supposed to be talking about XIV and TMMOC!


Xebius has some interesting ideas, but I don't see the "new MMO every 2 to 3 years" as a good business model. Too many people start playing at too many varied times and the more people you have the more varied their schedules will be. People can't morph their lives around when a server's story events will happen, so a lot of people will miss out. You also have to consider that unfortunately some people actually like the grind at the end, so to cater to all audiences it has to be there. As for the "carrot in front of a donkey" comment, isn't that the basic idea behind an MMO? It's all about getting our money for as long as possible.

I do really like the idea of more in-depth dungeons though, as I've already stated. Being able to "save" your progress is an interesting idea and reminds me of how Nyzul worked in XI. Then there was always the double edged sword of the time and entry restraints. On one hand, being limited to how long you have allows you to schedule it easier and brings on a certain amount of challenge. Yet on the other hand, there are times when you and your group have a lot of time and cannot continue as you have to wait to re-enter and there won't be any surprising challenges waiting in the shadows that draw out the time you are inside the dungeon.
#41 Apr 05 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
I think your idea is more a 'player' idea than a developer idea. There's always this push and pull between developers and players, where players want things easier and developers want to keep the level of challenge up.

I can see from a player point of view, getting to the boss easily so you can keep trying it sound nicer, but really all it is, is making the item easier to get if you can just grind the boss.

Personally I don't think grinding a boss over and over is the solution. If the item needs to be easier to get, just raise the drop rate so the people only have to go through once or twice.

Trash mobs are a specific tool in dungeon design that fulfills two primary goals. One is time and difficulty. Having to put in time and effort to get to the boss makes players feel they did something when they finally get through it all and beat that boss. They endured. Overcoming things is fun! Second is they fill dungeons. Big dark evil castles are fun to design, but it sucks if they're just empty right? :P You want players running through your mega fortress of ultimate doom, but you need there to be a reason for all those rooms. Evil master vampire-lich-doom-guy doesn't live in the top floor of a fortress for no reason, he need it to house his minion onions.

And of course lastly, how can a boss be a boss if he's not the boss of anything? :P
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#42 Apr 05 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
Oh also I want an MMO where your unit is basically a mercenary force, not an individual character. Through the game, you can recruit NPCs of different classes to make a team of say, 6 people of different classes. Each player has their own fort that they can keep reserve characters in.

Mercenary forces can unite into larger units, say a company, or even a legion to accomplish larger tasks or participate in battles between kingdoms/countries/empires/koalas/whatever.
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#43 Apr 05 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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On the topic of clans and monopolies, the easiest way to limit it is to make the size of a clan limited like they do in Aion.

Another idea from aion is that an NPC faction will also try to attack you to take control of an area.

I would love to see clans.
#44 Apr 05 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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The problem I have had with a lot of games is that you need 50 people to do event X and there is only rewards for say... 3-4 people. Even then, if it's your turn to finally get that reward and it doesn't happen to drop for you this time, you're SOL.

Salvage is another thing I kind of liked, and yet I hated. It was fun, but if it just so happened that you didn't get to unlock any of your abilities... you were pretty much worthless and just running around doing practically nothing the entire time. The drop rates were disgustingly poor for the end pieces to get your final salvage gear too. Then, on top of that, you have to wait X days for most of these things until you can participate again.

I liked how assault gear was done, but there were several pieces of it that I was rather disappointed with as well. I hope that the way you get rewards and the itemization of said rewards is a little better or perhaps even customizable in FFXIV.
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#45 Apr 05 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I would hate to see clan/guild/linkshell wars in FF14, it's great when the end game content is PVP orientated but doesn't really suit a PVE style game.
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#46 Apr 06 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Siks wrote:
"new MMO every 2 to 3 years"

Yah I guess that's not being realistic is it, maybe 4 or 5 years is a better number? But how do you keep people playing that long without redundant expansion packs?

My main point in all of this is to make the content itself more exciting and involved. Make the dungeon itself more exciting, more involved and part of a greater story. A story that you take part in with your friends. Surprisingly a game that does this very well but could be so much better with modern production values is Dungeon and Dragons Online. Each dungeon has a story. The problem is that there are so many of them that they become watered down. Reduce the number and make each one longer and more interesting and I think we're getting somewhere. Also, has anyone played Guild Wars? I wonder how that is? yah yah I know it's all instanced but I'm curious what the quests and dungeons are like.

digitalcraft wrote:
Oh also I want an MMO where your unit is basically a mercenary force, not an individual character. Through the game, you can recruit NPCs of different classes to make a team of say, 6 people of different classes. Each player has their own fort that they can keep reserve characters in.

Mercenary forces can unite into larger units, say a company, or even a legion to accomplish larger tasks or participate in battles between kingdoms/countries/empires/koalas/whatever.


That's actually a really cool idea. Sort of like an FFT or Ogre Battle MMO. You control where the company goes and what their orders are but not what each individual NPC does in combat (or maybe you do?) It would have to be part RTS though I imagine to be effective. But a neat concept none the less.
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Yes I'm a bit of a jerk, but a rational jerk.
#47 Apr 06 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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437 posts
Regarding ^^

Why do I all of a sudden have this terrible terrible image of an entire MMO full of DAoC bonecasters... *runs and hides*
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