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#1 Apr 06 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
I don't know if this has been posted before, I did do a search and found nothing, so I apolygise beforehand.

I was on ffxi last night, soloing stuff on my character (new one), and things got a bit messy and I was saved by my 2 hour (perfect dodge), then it got me thinking, will ffxiv have a 2 hour like on ffxi?

What do you guys think?

Yet again, sorry if this has been posted before.

Pinkfyre.
#2 Apr 06 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pinkfyre wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted before, I did do a search and found nothing, so I apolygise beforehand.

I was on ffxi last night, soloing stuff on my character (new one), and things got a bit messy and I was saved by my 2 hour (perfect dodge), then it got me thinking, will ffxiv have a 2 hour like on ffxi?

What do you guys think?

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. We don't know if the abilities that have been released so far is the complete list, or even how those abilities are implemented yet.
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#3 Apr 06 2010 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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There is no way that the abilties on the website is the complete list .. lol

I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 hours back in some form or another.

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 4:35am by Diakar
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#4 Apr 06 2010 at 4:11 AM Rating: Good
If they do bring back the 2 hour abilities, i hope they make them less wishy-washy. When i was leveling RDM, i thought my 2hr sucked untill i got to higher levels. When i leveled SMN, i thought my 2hr was the ****....untill i got to higher levels.

Wishy-washy.
#5 Apr 06 2010 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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I hope there's nothing with that long a cooldown anymore.
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#6 Apr 06 2010 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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Huuuge discussion on this before.

I think the major conclusion was something like this:

Most 2hr's were very lackluster, those that were not were never used. For example whitemage has an amazing 2hr that can save a party in a lot of circumstances, however it often guarantees a wipe for the whitemage(the one guy who shouldn't die often). Then on top of that many people do not play to "need" the 2hr's so they are often never used.

The major problem was that a 2hr for most of the jobs lasted so short it basically turned into a "save it until i REALLY need it". So if you had a good/great party you never used it 'just in case' you might need it. Right there you cut out most of the skills cause really... if a whitemage just randomely used his benediction to heal everyone up in between a fight some parties might get upset. After all if he hadn't used it he could use it 5 fights from now when a gob is going to wipe them for throwing way too many nades.

-----------------------
Overall i hope they never exist again. Unless properly implemented(which i doubt they ever can or will) then they are simply a wasted skill and idea. The bonus some of them provided were terrible, many were only situational and all of them never lasted long at all.
#7 Apr 06 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ideally, they'd make these "ultimate abilities" on a 30 minute cool down instead of 2 hours. I hated using my 2 hour because I might NEED it before 2 hours is up. At least with a cool down that takes less time, I'd be more willing to pop it if it looks like it could be useful.
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#8 Apr 06 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Huuuge discussion on this before.

I think the major conclusion was something like this:

Most 2hr's were very lackluster, those that were not were never used. For example whitemage has an amazing 2hr that can save a party in a lot of circumstances, however it often guarantees a wipe for the whitemage(the one guy who shouldn't die often). Then on top of that many people do not play to "need" the 2hr's so they are often never used.

The major problem was that a 2hr for most of the jobs lasted so short it basically turned into a "save it until i REALLY need it". So if you had a good/great party you never used it 'just in case' you might need it. Right there you cut out most of the skills cause really... if a whitemage just randomely used his benediction to heal everyone up in between a fight some parties might get upset. After all if he hadn't used it he could use it 5 fights from now when a gob is going to wipe them for throwing way too many nades.

-----------------------
Overall i hope they never exist again. Unless properly implemented(which i doubt they ever can or will) then they are simply a wasted skill and idea. The bonus some of them provided were terrible, many were only situational and all of them never lasted long at all.


Quote:
Ideally, they'd make these "ultimate abilities" on a 30 minute cool down instead of 2 hours. I hated using my 2 hour because I might NEED it before 2 hours is up. At least with a cool down that takes less time, I'd be more willing to pop it if it looks like it could be useful.


Now see, here's where the difference of opinion was. I feel like that's exactly what 2-hours were intended to do. They worked like a "last ditch" move, and that's how I typically saw them used in exp parties. If you make it a 30 minute cooldown, you're basically turning it into a slightly less common standard ability. There's nothing special about them anymore, and on that short a cooldown, you definitely have to limit their power a bit, which further limits their potential. Anything less than a 2-hour time limit, and people will be just tossing the ability out on whim, instead of reserving it for special situations. And that completely negates the point of the ability. I don't think people should be complaining that they never had a reason to use their 2-hour, because that was the idea.

And I don't know about everyone else, but I saw them often enough anyway. Something always inevitably goes wrong in an exp party, and when those things happened, it was great to see everyone bust out the 2-hours in the chaos that ensued. As I said in the old thread: "When 2-hours were getting used, you knew something crazy was going on."

That being said, obviously some of them needed revamping, because there was a massive spread of usefulness between 2-hours, with some being almost worthless, and some being quite uber.



Edited, Apr 6th 2010 9:02am by Eske
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#9 Apr 06 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The major problem was that a 2hr for most of the jobs lasted so short it basically turned into a "save it until i REALLY need it". So if you had a good/great party you never used it 'just in case' you might need it. Right there you cut out most of the skills cause really... if a whitemage just randomely used his benediction to heal everyone up in between a fight some parties might get upset. After all if he hadn't used it he could use it 5 fights from now when a gob is going to wipe them for throwing way too many nades.


Not that good NA parties DIDN'T do this, but almost every party that I did do it in, has been Japanese. Last 5-10 mins of the party? Let's keep the chain going! Depending on the classes, you get everyone in the party to use their 2hour once to try to get the biggest chain you could. Not really so fun in merits, but it is fun to get chain 7-10 when in normal little groups. Was a blast when leveling SMN and SAM especially. =)

I would love to see 2 hours in FFXIV. The problem is, with jobs changing so easily and perhaps points to devote, how will they do it? Will you always have 1 2HR for your current job or perhaps you can buy your 2 hour to equip in your 2 hour slot when you get X "AP" in your current job.

And yes, you could survive Benediction on a white mage... if you communicated with your tank that you were going to use it and your tank knew how to hold hate. And actually, one of the best times to use benediction is just before or after your pally uses invincible (assuming your whole party needs the heal badly and you're low on MP.)
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#10 Apr 06 2010 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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Tenfooterten, Assassin Reject wrote:
If they do bring back the 2 hour abilities, i hope they make them less wishy-washy. When i was leveling RDM, i thought my 2hr sucked untill i got to higher levels. When i leveled SMN, i thought my 2hr was the ****....untill i got to higher levels.

Wishy-washy.




When I was leveling my Rng, I thought my 2hr sucked...until I got to higher levels...






and I realized it still sucked.


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#11 Apr 06 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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In a recent interview they mentioned that they might bring back both 2hrs and skillchains. They were working on the development currently so it is hard to say if it will be implemented.
#12 Apr 06 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
It's odd to see the difference in opinions. I only used my 2hr on NIN to blood warp somewhere. DRK? lol. THF? When did I have hate? MNK.. Well yeah that was fun to see the mob just drop, but I still rarely did it.
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#13 Apr 06 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
Too many of the 2hr abilities were broken. I used to comment on the disappointment of having a 2hr that could completely miss (RNG EES). Yay...I saved it for an emergency and when I went to use it, it was totally and completely useless. I remember my first miss with it, too...it was in the mission 5-1 BCNM. The rest of the party had a good lol about it...I was more than a little disappointed. It's mechanics like that which really hammered on SE's credibility as an MMO developer. Sticking with the EES example, it didn't scale very well at all. My Slug Shot wound up being capable of more damage on a per use basis than EES. At that point it would have made sense to have an ability like EES on a much shorter cooldown.

DRG's 2hr was also notorious for being potentially useless. If SE had an extra $15/month for each time a DRG's freshly summoned wyvern died from prolonged exposure to bubble showers in Qufim...ya...broken. And then you'd look at the 2hr abilities of other classes that had a guaranteed benefit and/or a far more diverse opportunity to make using it worthwhile and you start to realize that the whole concept of 2h abilities left something to be desired. For something on a 2 hour cooldown, I expect the clouds to part, rays of happy unicorn light to shine down on my party and great chasms of hellfire and brimstone to open up under my enemies and smite them to bits. Okay, so not really that OP, but you get the point. When you take the zomfguber ability of any given class and tune it so that it can produce such immense disappointment, there's something wrong.

We can assume that SE has learned from that. The DRG 2hr was changed. Not sure if RNG's 2hr got any tweaking since I left the game. I'm a bit reluctant to poo-poo concepts for FFXIV based on SE's previous implementations of them in FFXI, but at the end of the day 2 hours is just too long. 1 hour seems like about the upper limit on the cooldown for any one ability no matter how uber. It's enough to send a very clear message that says, "This is not for everyday use" (so to speak) without making it so extremely limited that nobody really wants to use it because using it "just in case" might create problems an hour from now when they can't use it "just in case".

There are a lot of things to consider when tuning powerful abilities on lengthy cooldowns. They have to be balanced relative to other classes and they have to scale appropriately. The more classes you have, the harder it becomes to meet those two requirements. There will always be the segment of players who will downplay the benefits of what they have because they like what someone else has even more, but there was such a vast discrepancy between 2hrs in FFXI, if they did make a return in FFXIV they'd probably be one of the things I used to evaluate whether or not SE had learned from previous experiences.

There's nothing wrong with extremely powerful abilities on long cooldowns. The question is simply one of how powerful you can make them without crossing the line into overpowered, and just how long the cooldown can be before it becomes too long.
#14 Apr 06 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
I like what you said there Aurelius, and I agree. If they are all tuned properly to be extremely useful on a more casual basis. I think SE will nail it this time. Doesn't hurt to have faith in them, they have delivered on some things and failed on others, but learned from said fails. Here's to hoping!
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#15 Apr 06 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I liked 2 hours, except for when they failed.

Nothing like blowing for Mighty Misses and letting the whiffing ensue.

I think 2 hours is a good amount of time for a recharge to make the power a solid "OH S***" Button, but they were underpowered for being such Important powers.

RNG and WAR i think got screwed pretty badly just because huge amounts of damage done to the air beside the monster does no good.

If the 2-Hours were all solidly useful I think they would be fun to have back.
#16 Apr 06 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah it was certainly odd to have melee 2hrs that missed whilst others such as perfect dodge, benediction, chainspell and manafront were of such a nature they couldn't miss, who thought that one up!?
If all the last ditch skill skills missed occasionally it may not be so bad, your character is after all panicing and things are likely to go wrong in a situation such as that. I wouldn't mind trading reliability for more powerful skills at all, but I know most people like to control every aspect of the game so they would want a 100% reliable skill, boring! Yeah and what about once per game day skills, then you could use the skill twice back2back?

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 12:40pm by NumptyHunter
#17 Apr 06 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
1 hour seems like about the upper limit on the cooldown for any one ability no matter how uber. It's enough to send a very clear message that says, "This is not for everyday use" (so to speak) without making it so extremely limited that nobody really wants to use it because using it "just in case" might create problems an hour from now when they can't use it "just in case".


I could deal with 1-hours. As you said, it seems like a good amount of time to still indicate that they're not just for using at whim.
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#18 Apr 06 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
1 hour seems like about the upper limit on the cooldown for any one ability no matter how uber. It's enough to send a very clear message that says, "This is not for everyday use" (so to speak) without making it so extremely limited that nobody really wants to use it because using it "just in case" might create problems an hour from now when they can't use it "just in case".


I could deal with 1-hours. As you said, it seems like a good amount of time to still indicate that they're not just for using at whim.


This, and the more casual people might enjoy using it once or twice before they log off for the night. :D
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#19 Apr 06 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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As much as I like the idea in theory player-side, in practice dev-side they had a nasty habit of either dictating or undermining strategy for boss encounters.

Although once they'd given them to the players, really, what choice did they have? They could either make something hard enough that it can hold it's own against the likes of astral flow, benediction and invincible, incurring a 2 hour downtime for failure and encouraging class discrimination. Or they could make something that can be defeated with some challenge using the rest of the abilities players have access to, and run the risk of it being too easy if they decide to use the 2hours.

Yikes.

At the end of the day, I'm more interested in see what they can do without that particular caveat than having an 'oh shi-' button.




Edited, Apr 6th 2010 2:36pm by Zemzelette
#20 Apr 06 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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I'm actually surprised no one here has talked about how overpowered 2HRs can be.

Zerg Rushes with Soul Voice, Hundred Fists, Blood Weapon + Soul Eater, Mekiyo Shushi, etc. makes some HNMs cry in their sleep. AV died from a zerg rush like that before SE nerfed it pretty hard.

Personally, I'd vouch for less "Oh ****" abilities and more "Ultimate" abilities. FFXI was seriously lacking in that department apart from Quested weaponskills (hit 'n miss, mostly miss). It makes more sense to have something like that instead of 2hrs you get from level 1.

I also agree that a 30 minute cooldown would be perfect. One hour is doable, and anything longer than that demands for all abilities to be considerably broken.
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#21 Apr 06 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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I really hope, in fact it would be a dealbreaker for me, that FFXIV has more abilities to use and on a much shorter cooldown. 20 Minutes wait to use a move like Rampart (I think that's the timer it had...maybe not) was silly. It wasn't fun only pushing the occasional button, wasn't very fast paced, didn't feel much like combat. So if SE cuts down on the cooldowns, I expect this to effect any 2-hour-like skills. 30 minutes sounds perfect for the most powerful ability available to the class.
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#22 Apr 06 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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2 hour cooldown on powerful moves isn't really all that great. I think 15-20 min is a lot more reasonable. You get more use out if it and might actually turn the tide of battles and allow for more strategic use of a strong ability, then the lets have everyone 2 hour and zerg if we don't win then we can't do it again.
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#23 Apr 06 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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I have no real proof, but I'm thinking the new "2hr" will be summoning. So sorry to step on the hopes and dreams of a would be summoner class. SE eludes that players will be able to harness the power of the primals, and I don't really think they mean a sumoner class. Think of the many times in the FF series where anyone could summon. Not only could it be developed in such a way to make them useful, yet not overpowered; it can leave the summons completely open for anyone to use (provided they have earned them) anyone of them that the player chooses for a specific need. ex: ice, fire, healing, etc.
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#24 Apr 06 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
I have no real proof, but I'm thinking the new "2hr" will be summoning. So sorry to step on the hopes and dreams of a would be summoner class. SE eludes that players will be able to harness the power of the primals, and I don't really think they mean a sumoner class. Think of the many times in the FF series where anyone could summon. Not only could it be developed in such a way to make them useful, yet not overpowered; it can leave the summons completely open for anyone to use (provided they have earned them) anyone of them that the player chooses for a specific need. ex: ice, fire, healing, etc.


For some nagging reason, I just don't see this happening. Ever.
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#25 Apr 06 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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flukedrk the Shady wrote:
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
I have no real proof, but I'm thinking the new "2hr" will be summoning. So sorry to step on the hopes and dreams of a would be summoner class. SE eludes that players will be able to harness the power of the primals, and I don't really think they mean a sumoner class. Think of the many times in the FF series where anyone could summon. Not only could it be developed in such a way to make them useful, yet not overpowered; it can leave the summons completely open for anyone to use (provided they have earned them) anyone of them that the player chooses for a specific need. ex: ice, fire, healing, etc.


For some nagging reason, I just don't see this happening. Ever.


You know this may actually be correct but for the wrong reasons, with the possibility of either a birthsign based bonus (from the 12 etc) or a clan guardian deity could come the ability to invoke the power of or summon ones guardian deity in a "2hr" like fashion. So maybe it is not too incredible. As for the primals, thats not the 12 ( or is it ) I have a hunch thats something else or is that just wishful thinking lol.
#26 Apr 06 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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You might be right Flukedrk. Its just a feeling I get. On the other hand, I'll keep an eye out for it and be ready to place it in the "I called it thread" if I am right.lol.
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#27 Apr 06 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Problem with 2hours has always been mob balance. Especially with death penalties that punish failure, people will always want to tackle battles while they're at their strongest, and often battles are tuned to almost require these 2 hours. If players are only at their strongest every 2 hours, then they will often wait. Waiting is boring and often dissolves the group.
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#28 Apr 06 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a feeling the death penalty in FFXIV is probably not going to be as harsh as it was in FFXI. For some reason, I see it being more along the lines of WoW-- losing durability on worn equipment. But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.
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#29 Apr 07 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


I'm gonna miss running around zones and seeing a mysterious player hit the floor with text displaying "Level Down".
#30 Apr 07 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
aquari wrote:
Quote:
But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


I'm gonna miss running around zones and seeing a mysterious player hit the floor with text displaying "Level Down".


While I agree that always made me chuckle, I felt for them cause at one point or another.. I was there too. Especially at 75 with the up and down up and down syndrome from endgame :(
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#31 Apr 07 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


These two things aren't really connected. Just because a game includes levels, doesn't mean it has to have a xp loss death penalty. Especially if it's been marketed to a casual audience.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 3:28am by Zemzelette
#32 Apr 07 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


These two things aren't really connected. Just because a game includes levels, doesn't mean it has to have a xp loss death penalty. Especially if it's been marketed to a casual audience.


And also because they've incorporated equipment durability into the game. SE has taken a lot of flak over the years about the xp loss on death but you don't see people in games with a durability penalty for death complaining about it. It would be almost silly of SE to implement durability but not have a durability penalty for dying, and it would be downright ludicrous for them to keep all of the penalties for death that were found in FFXI and add a durability loss.
#33 Apr 07 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


I really would not bank on this claim anymore. For one thing, it's from a very old batch of information that if I recall was somewhat loosely translated. At the very least, it's an exaggeration, and xp/levels won't be as important.

But I'm sure the death penalty will be less severe either way.
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#34 Apr 07 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
But considering there is no "real XP" or "real levels" I doubt there will be any XP loss or level loss associated with death.


I really would not bank on this claim anymore. For one thing, it's from a very old batch of information that if I recall was somewhat loosely translated. At the very least, it's an exaggeration, and xp/levels won't be as important.

But I'm sure the death penalty will be less severe either way.


Also, there may or may not have been some information floating around that suggested the opposite (that "real levels" are still very much present). I'm not going to tempt fate by linking to the source, but it's around somewhere. *wink wink*

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 11:20am by Eske
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#35 Apr 07 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also, there may or may not have been some information floating around that suggested the opposite (that "real levels" are still very much present). I'm not going to tempt fate by linking to the source, but it's around somewhere. *wink wink*


I read. ;)

But until I read that, all the information we had was we weren't going to be getting XP, as that is what they said in an early interview.


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