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Physical Level = Cant Play All Classes Effectively?Follow

#1 Apr 08 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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So from what i've gathered from this new info, you're character has a physical level and class level that are independent of eachother. Class levels give you you're skills and Physical levels give you you're stats. The most common assumption is that no matter what class you change to, physical level stays the same. Physical Levels also let you put points into whatever stats you want.

From what i can tell, this means that you essentially can't play every class on the same character like you could in XI. If you level Lancer as you're first class and put all you're stats into HP, STR, and DEX, then switch to a mage class, you've got a mage class with gimped MP, INT, and MND.

At first i figured this new class system would allow for more freedom but this news has really got me rattled, it seems as though we'll have to make different characters for different classes, unless we respec. But even with a respec, that means that you cant switch classes on the fly without being gimped.

Not happy.
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#2 Apr 08 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Default
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Well, you'll be able to switch classes, but it'll be from Mage to Mage and DPS to DPS. You won't be able to switch from Mage to DPS, though. We'll see what happen as more info filters in.
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#3 Apr 08 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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We still don't have enough info to make an assumption like this.
#4 Apr 08 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Default
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uhh, one of the very early descriptions mentioned going from a gardener class to mage class by picking up your stored staff. can't remember which one, but it is definately something from last year I think.
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#5 Apr 08 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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MrNumptyk wrote:
If you level Lancer as you're first class and put all you're stats into HP, STR, and DEX, then switch to a mage class, you've got a mage class with gimped MP, INT, and MND.

That just means your mage will be the equivalent of any regular level 1 mage, like when you start a BLM1 after playing monk to 75 in XI?

I mean, we still don't know if the physical level influences the rate of xp you gain on mobs, so we can assume the worst (it does), in which case yeah, you'd be a high level character with the int of a level 1.

But if you're a level 20 (all physical stats so far) and pick up a staff for the first time (thaumaturge level 1), are you expected to kill level 1 or level 20 mobs? Which ones give xp? If the classic lowbie mob is what you're after, then no problem; you're actually a physically superior (STR, HP, DEX) mage to the fresh new adventurers next to you.

Time will tell, it's never a good idea to panic and cry doom before you know the facts.


Edited, Apr 9th 2010 1:31am by Lianda
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#6 Apr 08 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That just means your mage will be the equivalent of any regular level 1 mage, like when you start a BLM1 after playing monk to 75 in XI?

I mean, we still don't know if the physical level influences the rate of xp you gain on mobs, so we can assume the worst (it does), in which case yeah, you'd be a high level character with the int of a level 1.

But if you're a level 20 (all physical stats so far) and pick up a staff for the first time (thaumaturge level 1), are you expected to kill level 1 or level 20 mobs? Which ones give xp? If the classic lowbie mob is what you're after, then no problem; you're actually a physically superior (STR, HP, DEX) mage to the fresh new adventurers next to you.

Time will tell, it's never a good idea to panic and cry doom before you know the facts.


What i meant was, if you level you're character to the level cap (physical level cap) only putting points into melee based stats, then you're mage will never have good mage stats, just uber melee stats.

this means we must choose between a balanced character that can play all classes mediocre, or a specialized character that can play a certain role very effectively, but be gimped doing anything else.

This is all under the assumption (decent assumption based on what ive heard from alpha testers) that you're physical level and stats do not change when you change classes.


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#7 Apr 08 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

What i meant was, if you level you're character to the level cap (physical level cap) only putting points into melee based stats, then you're mage will never have good mage stats, just uber melee stats.

this means we must choose between a balanced character that can play all classes mediocre, or a specialized character that can play a certain role very effectively, but be gimped doing anything else.

This is all under the assumption (decent assumption based on what ive heard from alpha testers) that you're physical level and stats do not change when you change classes.


Im sure Ive read somewhere that you can change your point distribution for your physical level. Its not active on the Alpha, but Im 90% sure that it HAS been mentioned that it is indeed available.

EDIT:
Quote:
Komoto: In the alpha, there is a cap on Physical Levels, and you can't redistribute points already spent on parameters just yet. Later on, we want to allow players to reallocate points in case they focus too heavily on a certain attribute and want to adjust that. We also plan to make it so you cannot simply max out every attribute, so players will have to work to find a good balance. For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user


http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=22055

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 1:46am by Meraris
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#8 Apr 08 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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They just confirmed respec in the new interview.
But you already said you were concerned even with that considered.

Personally, I dig the idea of semi-permanent stats.
If you could change your stats along with your class on-the-psuedo-fly, stat assignment would no longer represent a choice (or at least a choice worth making). If you can change something so you can reap all the benefits without having to worry about the opportunity cost losses, your simply pointing out which of two things has a bigger number and working towards acquisition. It's only a choice in the barest most technically semantic interpretation of the word.

Granted, given how a certain mechanic functioned in XI, some folks might walk away from this setup feeling like they've been saddled with less. But I promise you, there is nothing lesser than a choice without meaning.



Edited, Apr 9th 2010 1:53am by Zemzelette
#9 Apr 09 2010 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user


This, to me, ruins the whole purpose of being able to switch classes on the fly. If i have both Gladiator and Conjurer maxed out, but my current stats are setup for Gladiator, why would i ever want to switch to a gimped version of Conjurer?

In FFXI, switching classes was as simple as going to your moghouse and switching. FFXIV seemed like it was going to one-up FFXI in that you could do the same thing, but without having to go to a city to switch. This new news means that its actually inferior to XI's system in that, in order to play a different class -effectively-, you have to reallocate you're stats, which will probably be more of a hassle than simply going to you're mog house and switching jobs.
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#10 Apr 09 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just read in a dev interview that it will be possible to reallocate stats at will in the full game. I figured as much. I didn't think they'd stick you with permanent stats and be like "Haha your mage has 150 STR and 2 INT have fun JERK!"

But yeah this is especially good news for me because I'm notorious for ******** up stat layouts at first. It'll probably take a lot of fine tuning for me just to get the stats right for ONE discipline let alone several.
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#11 Apr 09 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

This, to me, ruins the whole purpose of being able to switch classes on the fly. If i have both Gladiator and Conjurer maxed out, but my current stats are setup for Gladiator, why would i ever want to switch to a gimped version of Conjurer


Apprently...you cant read. THEY WILL ALLOW YOU TO CHANGE YOUR PHYSICAL LEVEL POINTS.


Seriously....

EDIT: Sorry for coming off douchey, But I linked the article and even pulled out the exact quote....

EDIT2: More than Likely, I can see them allowing you to reallocate stats in the field anytime while in passive mode. Perhaps with just + and - buttons next to stats that are greyed out while in active mode.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 2:08am by Meraris

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 2:10am by Meraris
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#12 Apr 09 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
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MrNumptyk wrote:
Quote:
For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user


This, to me, ruins the whole purpose of being able to switch classes on the fly. If i have both Gladiator and Conjurer maxed out, but my current stats are setup for Gladiator, why would i ever want to switch to a gimped version of Conjurer?

In FFXI, switching classes was as simple as going to your moghouse and switching. FFXIV seemed like it was going to one-up FFXI in that you could do the same thing, but without having to go to a city to switch. This new news means that its actually inferior to XI's system in that, in order to play a different class -effectively-, you have to reallocate you're stats, which will probably be more of a hassle than simply going to you're mog house and switching jobs.


But I think that's the whole point of the system, balance. How would it be balanced if you could switch from a godly melee to a godly healer on the fly? It wouldn't.

If you want to be able to play melee and healer at the same time you'll have to balance your stats accordingly. This will ofcourse mean you won't be great at either but you'll still have the benefit of being able to switch between the two roles at will. After hearing about 15 player parties this makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how it'll become extremely useful. (For example being able to switch seamlessly from back-up tank to back-up healer)

But then again I'm sure there will also be multiple disciplines that play off eachother and won't have to be so "gimped" when switching between them. Say a blade wielding discipline and the blacksmith discipline?

Honestly we still don't have enough information about the system at large to be making any rash assumptions.
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#13 Apr 09 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Apprently...you cant read. THEY WILL ALLOW YOU TO CHANGE YOUR PHYSICAL LEVEL POINTS.


Quote:
you have to reallocate you're stats, which will probably be more of a hassle than simply going to you're mog house and switching jobs.


please read my whole post before coming to the conclusion that i can't read. I never ignored the fact that you can't respec, just that it ruins the point of being able to switch classes -at any time-.

Quote:
But I think that's the whole point of the system, balance. How would it be balanced if you could switch from a godly melee to a godly healer on the fly? It wouldn't.


I think that a Maurader with 100 STR and 0 INT would be much more useful than somebody who can switch between marauder and conjurer with 50 STR and 50 INT. I think i would invite the first guy.





Edited, Apr 9th 2010 2:18am by MrNumptyk
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#14 Apr 09 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
MrNumptyk wrote:
Quote:
For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user


This, to me, ruins the whole purpose of being able to switch classes on the fly. If i have both Gladiator and Conjurer maxed out, but my current stats are setup for Gladiator, why would i ever want to switch to a gimped version of Conjurer?

In FFXI, switching classes was as simple as going to your moghouse and switching. FFXIV seemed like it was going to one-up FFXI in that you could do the same thing, but without having to go to a city to switch. This new news means that its actually inferior to XI's system in that, in order to play a different class -effectively-, you have to reallocate you're stats, which will probably be more of a hassle than simply going to you're mog house and switching jobs.


There are two sides to your concerns. One...yours, as I understand it...is that the allocation of your stats based on your physical level will limit the versatility of the multi-class "change weapons now I'm something else!" system. The other is that if you can flip flop classes around at a whim just by changing gear anywhere in the world (potentially even in combat from the sounds of things) that it will make the game excessively complicated to tune. Even with the option to reallocate stats the devs are already talking about their concerns regarding being able to equip skills from one class on another.

To all you alpha/beta testers out there (assuming I end up having to wait for retail release), be a sport and drop a bug in SE's ear about at least two preset stat allocations so that if you find yourself going between a couple of classes on a fairly regular basis, you don't have to reallocate everything manually. That solves one of the problems of the tedium in switching between a melee damage vs. tank vs. caster damage vs. healer role. (It also assumes that they haven't already thought of/implemented it for an upcoming push).

Changing your class doesn't need to be as simple as changing a weapon and having everything else taken care of for you. If you want to play for diversity, you pay the hybrid tax. One way or another, there are always restrictions when you start trying to be all things, or even just more than one thing.
#15 Apr 09 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think that a Maurader with 100 STR and 0 INT would be much more useful than somebody who can switch between marauder and conjurer with 50 STR and 50 INT. I think i would invite the first guy.


Sure you would if your party is in need of a straight up DD.

But what if your party is up to say 8 members and your looking for someone to support both your main tank and main healer? Hello Gladiator with good HP, 50 VIT and 50 MND. Ofcourse this is a huge over-simplification but I think the point is clear.

Larger parties = greatest use for supplementary disciplines.
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#16 Apr 09 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Larger parties = greatest use for supplementary disciplines.


I would argue that larger parties decrease the need for diverse roles and increase the need for specialization.

It is in small parties that diversity really gets put to good use.

Think about it, in a 3 man party, you can have maybe 2 DD's and a person who can tank/heal. DDs can switch to healers if the need arises.

in larger parties, why not just let everybody do whatever it is they do best, you've got enough people to have all bases covered without the need for individual diversity.
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#17 Apr 09 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just playing devils advocate here. I don't claim to know nearly enough about the system to know exactly how reallocating stats, having balanced stats or switching disciplines on the fly will be useful in XIV. None of us do though.

I just think for some people using balanced characters like that will be practical even in large parties. For them why not earn skill points in two different disciplines while supporting the party at the same time?

Then again you made a perfectly good point yourself. Having balanced stats will definitely be useful in small party scenarios and even soloing.
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#18 Apr 09 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

please read my whole post before coming to the conclusion that i can't read. I never ignored the fact that you can't respec, just that it ruins the point of being able to switch classes -at any time-.


And maybe you should have read my 2nd edit.
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#19 Apr 09 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Default
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More than Likely, I can see them allowing you to reallocate stats in the field anytime while in passive mode. Perhaps with just + and - buttons next to stats that are greyed out while in active mode


if this were the case, whats the point of having a physical level at all? why don't they just have stat development mixed in with class development so when you switch weapons you're stats switch automatically for you.
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#20 Apr 09 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

if this were the case, whats the point of having a physical level at all? why don't they just have stat development mixed in with class development so when you switch weapons you're stats switch automatically for you.


Not all disciplines are combat disciplines but still require different items in your weapon slot to use
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#21 Apr 09 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
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My concern about this system is, it will actually do the opposite of what it's supposed to: limit individual customization than support it.

Reasoning:

Say your LS is going after UberFireBoss. Ok, all the mages up your int, hp, mp, water attack. Melee, up your str or vit. hp, and fire resist. Why not? You can just respec to what you were after the battle. To me that sounds... kinda cheap...
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#22 Apr 09 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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So umm... Anyone else notice there is no Light or Dark element?

>.>

<.<


I kno everyone is still in shock over the PL even tho new interview put a few minds to ease. I wonder if elements might increase spell potency or resistance for points into that category. Idk, for like fights against Fire Giant putting into Water for stronger spells, or tanks into Fire for better resistance? Idk
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#23 Apr 09 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

My concern about this system is, it will actually do the opposite of what it's supposed to: limit individual customization than support it.

Reasoning:

Say your LS is going after UberFireBoss. Ok, all the mages up your int, hp, mp, water attack. Melee, up your str or vit. hp, and fire resist. Why not? You can just respec to what you were after the battle. To me that sounds... kinda cheap...


In what way? Its the same thing to do something like, say, Farm resist gear for certain boss encounters. Or having to have certain gear to kill a certain boss. You still have to preform well to beat the encounter, and they could program certain things into the boss to negate the effect of some of your points(if resists ARE available)
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#24 Apr 09 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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to feel more unique.

I hope FFXIV is more skill based (like say Monster Hunter) than just "my stats are the best", but that is unlikely
#25 Apr 09 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I just read in a dev interview that it will be possible to reallocate stats at will in the full game.


Just because they say that you'll be able to change stats doesn't mean you'll be able to do it for free. In WoW when you want to change your talent you need to pay Gold (ingame currency) and the amount of Gold increases every time you respec. In Perfect World , a free mmorpg which has this exact stat system, they make you pay real dollars to reset your stats.

I think MrNumptyk is making a valid point and I also fear for the freedom of class changing.

No self respecting endgame ls is going to play with people who haven't gotten their stats set correctly either. Even if the stat allocation was free but you would have to run back into town for it you would be still worse off then FFXI. Right now in FFXI you just run back to your Moogle, say "Hey ******, give me job X" and it's done. But in FFXVI you would have to manually set all your points again. And everybody must have had one of these moments where your leader wasn't really sure what job he needed you to come on so you had to slap that Moogle over and over and over changing jobs. If you think that was annoying, try doing it in FFXIV but with manually setting you stats every single time.

If I'd play Devil's Advocate for SE I think I would say this stat allocation is a brilliant move. Customers would probably level several characters instead to avoid all the stat allocation hassle. They could make tank-, melee damage-, magic user-, crafter- stat characters. This would be a bigger profit for SE if they're still charging for additional characters.
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#26 Apr 09 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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No self respecting endgame ls is going to play with people who haven't gotten their stats set correctly either. Even if the stat allocation was free but you would have to run back into town for it you would be still worse off then FFXI. Right now in FFXI you just run back to your Moogle, say "Hey ******, give me job X" and it's done. But in FFXVI you would have to manually set all your points again. And everybody must have had one of these moments where your leader wasn't really sure what job he needed you to come on so you had to slap that Moogle over and over and over changing jobs. If you think that was annoying, try doing it in FFXIV but with manually setting you stats every single time.


Still easier to WAIT to reset points until your sure what your role is than to have to basically walk where you need to meet at for an hour.

Until the alpha is over, and we get into the beta where they will allow the allocation, we probably won't correctly guess exactly how they do what they want to do.

And WoW is a gold sink heavy game, FFXI wasnt, and honestly, I hope XIV isnt either.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 3:18am by Meraris
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#27 Apr 09 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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At this point any assumption made could be right considering how little we know about the system. I don't see much point arguing an angle that could likely be completely wrong when the game releases.

The only thing I'm willing to say for sure is that with all the extensive testing going on here I'm sure the system will work well and will be better and as simple to use if not simpler than the job system in XI.
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#28 Apr 09 2010 at 1:21 AM Rating: Default
Meraris wrote:
Quote:
No self respecting endgame ls is going to play with people who haven't gotten their stats set correctly either. Even if the stat allocation was free but you would have to run back into town for it you would be still worse off then FFXI. Right now in FFXI you just run back to your Moogle, say "Hey ******, give me job X" and it's done. But in FFXVI you would have to manually set all your points again. And everybody must have had one of these moments where your leader wasn't really sure what job he needed you to come on so you had to slap that Moogle over and over and over changing jobs. If you think that was annoying, try doing it in FFXIV but with manually setting you stats every single time.


Still easier to WAIT to reset points until your sure what your role is than to have to basically walk where you need to meet at for an hour.

Until the alpha is over, and we get into the beta where they will allow the allocation, we probably won't correctly guess exactly how they do what they want to do.

And WoW is a gold sink heavy game, FFXI wasnt, and honestly, I hope XIV isnt either.


Currency sinks are necessary, and the scope of the sinks has to be proportionate to the amount of currency entering the economy. If guildleves reward gil and/or mobs drop more than a trivial amount, there will need to be more sinks than FFXI to account or it.
#29 Apr 09 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
MrNumptyk wrote:
Quote:
For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user


This, to me, ruins the whole purpose of being able to switch classes on the fly. If i have both Gladiator and Conjurer maxed out, but my current stats are setup for Gladiator, why would i ever want to switch to a gimped version of Conjurer?

In FFXI, switching classes was as simple as going to your moghouse and switching. FFXIV seemed like it was going to one-up FFXI in that you could do the same thing, but without having to go to a city to switch. This new news means that its actually inferior to XI's system in that, in order to play a different class -effectively-, you have to reallocate you're stats, which will probably be more of a hassle than simply going to you're mog house and switching jobs.


There are two sides to your concerns. One...yours, as I understand it...is that the allocation of your stats based on your physical level will limit the versatility of the multi-class "change weapons now I'm something else!" system. The other is that if you can flip flop classes around at a whim just by changing gear anywhere in the world (potentially even in combat from the sounds of things) that it will make the game excessively complicated to tune. Even with the option to reallocate stats the devs are already talking about their concerns regarding being able to equip skills from one class on another.

To all you alpha/beta testers out there (assuming I end up having to wait for retail release), be a sport and drop a bug in SE's ear about at least two preset stat allocations so that if you find yourself going between a couple of classes on a fairly regular basis, you don't have to reallocate everything manually. That solves one of the problems of the tedium in switching between a melee damage vs. tank vs. caster damage vs. healer role. (It also assumes that they haven't already thought of/implemented it for an upcoming push).

Changing your class doesn't need to be as simple as changing a weapon and having everything else taken care of for you. If you want to play for diversity, you pay the hybrid tax. One way or another, there are always restrictions when you start trying to be all things, or even just more than one thing.


This is what I am going to agree with, I do believe they will have presets with manual adjustments. Think of it as dual-spec in WoW but with margin to move with. Then again this is SE so the tax on changing your class will be the manual stat redistribution. Wait and see I say :D
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#30 Apr 09 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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I think there is a danger with this stat reallocation no one mentioned. I hope SE has had the foresight and included a way to save certain stat point configurations.

For Instance, say you have 100 Str, 50 Dex, 40 Agi, and 0 Int for your Gladiator and you want to switch to Thaumaturge. Its gonna be an unbearable pain if you have to set every stat one by one from 0 again.

Edit: Mentioned in the post above......and I agree there is a need for at least 2 templates that can be switched between

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 3:45am by EklmForever
#31 Apr 09 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Default
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Currency sinks are necessary, and the scope of the sinks has to be proportionate to the amount of currency entering the economy. If guildleves reward gil and/or mobs drop more than a trivial amount, there will need to be more sinks than FFXI to account or it.


How many did FFXI have? I quit quite awhile ago, so Im not up to date on alot, but there wasnt much. Relics were easily the biggest sink, and that was only because of the time and Gil necessary to create the item. Besides that and NHM mob drops(K Club) I cant think of anything that took the currency out of the game.

We already know repairing weapons will cost us SOMETHING.
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#32 Apr 09 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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How many did FFXI have? I quit quite awhile ago, so Im not up to date on alot, but there wasnt much. Relics were easily the biggest sink, and that was only because of the time and Gil necessary to create the item. Besides that and NHM mob drops(K Club) I cant think of anything that took the currency out of the game.


When talking about money sink here, we mean the ways a game absorbs money back from players. Not money going from one player to another. Relics are a money sink when the currency is turned in for upgrading, not when buying them from bazaars. You might have to pay a lot for a Kraken Club, but that money goes to another player, it's not taken out of the game.

Paying a npc for a chocobo at the crags is a money sink.
Paying for the hourglass to get into Dynamis.
Paying for the soap for limbus.
Paying for weapons/armor/medicines/crafting materials/spell scrolls from npcs.
Paying for boat rides...
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#33 Apr 09 2010 at 2:51 AM Rating: Default
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Zemzelette wrote:
They just confirmed respec in the new interview.
But you already said you were concerned even with that considered.

Personally, I dig the idea of semi-permanent stats.
If you could change your stats along with your class on-the-psuedo-fly, stat assignment would no longer represent a choice (or at least a choice worth making). If you can change something so you can reap all the benefits without having to worry about the opportunity cost losses, your simply pointing out which of two things has a bigger number and working towards acquisition. It's only a choice in the barest most technically semantic interpretation of the word.

Granted, given how a certain mechanic functioned in XI, some folks might walk away from this setup feeling like they've been saddled with less. But I promise you, there is nothing lesser than a choice without meaning.



Edited, Apr 9th 2010 1:53am by Zemzelette


if your able to respec would'nt that mean in addition you would also have to earn respec points to do that also and would'nt there be some type of leveling for respecs?
#34 Apr 09 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe in order to respec it will have a cool down timer or costly fee associated with it to keep people from doing it often.

Like for example your linkshell is going to do some HNM thats weak to earth so you tell all your mages to respec for more earth damage. But next up is the fire boss so you have everyone switch to Water instead. That just seems like it defeats the purpose of having a physical if you can respec a lot, so there has to be some payment or consequences to using it.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 2:13am by ZumiPhoenix
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#35Meraris, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 3:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I understand what a money sink is. The relic one, yes, was stupid on my part, but again, havent played in quite a bit.
#36 Apr 09 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Haven't read all of this thread yet, but it's a topic of discussion on BG. The obvious problem is that it will either be too rigid and you won't be able to change your stats on the fly to suit your job, or it will be too fluid and encourage people to respec their stats between nearly every fight. So this was my response:

I cast my vote for doing away with the current point allocation scheme and opt for a device (that I have not yet envisioned) that essentially allows you to program a certain number of allocation specs that can be adjusted at any time.

So tentatively let's call it some kind of magic orb that you keep on your person that will remember as many as 10 stat allocation configurations (and theoretically there could be magic orbs that hold more or less). You may at any point use your magic orb to switch your current stat allocation.

Essentially the mechanic is in principle like that of gearswapping, only much more fluid and much less annoying. You could, of course, only do a single allocation for each class, but you could also do specs for certain abilities/weaponskills/spells/etc.

I also vote that these are initially quested somewhere abouts mid or early midgame.

Thoughts, criticisms, and of course praise are welcome.
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#37 Apr 09 2010 at 3:33 AM Rating: Default
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And how expensive were any of those? Most of the time, you made a profit off crafting, I never really did Limbus or Dyna, and Boat rides and Chocobos are rather cheap.


Chocobos are cheap now, but in the past they were a mean sink. The prices would increases if a lot of people used them. Crag Mea was really popular, because of the leveling in Bibiki Bay and other things.

Also gill drops from mobs aren't that big either.

Sure you make profit from crafting, but you would only generate more gill if you sold your items to the npc. If you sold your stuff on the action house you would just be taking money from another player, not creating "new" money for the economy.
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#38 Apr 09 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure about everyone else, but i think being able to reallocate PL points is a great idea. I plan on using gladiator as my main job, with archer as my secondary/solo job, and on crafting job. being able to fine tune my avatar between party play (gladiator), solo play (archer) and crafting will surely create a more enjoyable experience? admittedly, if it can be done with no penalty it may annoy some players, but am i wrong in thinking that those who choose to specialise in one job will purchase expensive, high end gear, and as such will change jobs infrequently ? idk, to me it seems they have created a system that allows devoted tanks (for example) to spec their stats and gear for pure tanking, and those who are after variety can change freely without being gimped.
#39 Apr 09 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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on Levels & points
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Komoto: In the alpha, there is a cap on Physical Levels, and you can't redistribute points already spent on parameters just yet. Later on, we want to allow players to reallocate points in case they focus too heavily on a certain attribute and want to adjust that. We also plan to make it so you cannot simply max out every attribute, so players will have to work to find a good balance. For example, you may raise a certain skill in order to play a Warrior-type class. If you later want to go as a Disciple of Magic, you can then reallocate those points into something more beneficial for a magic-user.


on Warp & Telepoints
Quote:
Komoto: There will be costs attached to those abilities, but that hasn't been implemented yet in the alpha. We hope to make it so players with limited time can travel quickly, but also add elements that players with time to spare can enjoy if they decide to travel back on foot. We are looking to provide enough warp points to make these abilities a real help for players short on time. As for costs involved, we don't plan anything really restricting, and hope to keep it down to almost nothing.


maybe, just maybe, the cost for point reseting will mirror the minimal costs on warps and telepoints? or maybe we should ready our wallets.
#40 Apr 09 2010 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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I am liking the idea of having a Skill Level and Physical Level. I'm hoping that the respec costs are cheap at first, but raise in cost the more you do it. I think having the Physical Level too freely adjustable is pretty much the same as having a character with all maxed stats.

If the stat points have a max, and we can move them freely, someone who normally plays a melee class can switch and play a mage, swap the points to max out the mage attributes,then do the whole thing again after the event with little thought. That sounds over powered and easily exploitable. With every player able to freely move PL points to max for a specific job, we'll be forced to rely on gear to set ourselves apart from the other 1,000 Gladiators with STR/DEX/VIT maxed. I see that as removing the uniqueness of making your own character.

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#41 Apr 09 2010 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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There could be the possibility that the classes use both physical and mental stats for different effects.

Ex: A warrior using intelligence to boost certain feints, a mage using strength to empower his elemental blast*




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#42 Apr 09 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with that is that diversity is one of the central concepts of this game's design-- to be able to play all classes proficiently on a single character. If you can't reallocate freely, then you can't do that, then on-the-fly class changes become extremely lackluster.

However, if you can respec freely, then you'll be expected to respec to optimize for nearly every little thing.

So there's definitely some challenge in making the respec process simple enough that it doesn't cripple the advantages of on-the-fly job changes, yet not so accessible that you can do it without restriction.

And that's why I suggest limiting respecs to a few configurations that you can set at aetheryte/towns and then bring with you to use freely in the open world. This way you can keep a separate configuration for your Marauder and your Thaumaturge (or even a few for each for different types of situations-- like a limited gear swap), but you can't micromanage from any place in the world.

And of course this should all be allowed via some magical item. Because magic explains everything.
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#43 Apr 09 2010 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Considering the situation regarding physical stats, I'm surprised that they haven't created a system that simply retains stat configurations for each class played.

For example, changing your class from Gladiator to Thaumaturge would result in your physical stats changing to whatever has been distributed for that class. Much like in FFXI when you change jobs, your stats automatically reconfigure to that class configuration. However, where FFXIV exceeds this mechanic is in allowing the player to configure their class to their liking by allowing them the ability to distribute their own stats. So for example, Thaumaturge "A" might prefer more INT over MP to nuke harder, where Thaumaturge "B" prefers more MP over INT to nuke longer.

This is the system I envisioned. And nothing's been confirmed other than that they expect players to find a balance of sorts. They didn't say if it was a balance across all classes, they just said a balance. So they could very well mean that if you, say, distribute too much INT to your Magic class, you can redistribute your points to adjust/fix what you've done.

However, with that said, I expect SE to push some sort of balancing system. This, after all, is not WoW, and I don't want it to be. I know there will be complaints, but even the balancing system that is being pitched as class-wide, is less restricting because in FFXI you cannot distribute your physical stats in any way. SE doesn't hand it to you on a silver platter, and I don't expect or want them to.
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#44 Apr 09 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Considering the situation regarding physical stats, I'm surprised that they haven't created a system that simply retains stat configurations for each class played.

For example, changing your class from Gladiator to Thaumaturge would result in your physical stats changing to whatever has been distributed for that class. Much like in FFXI when you change jobs, your stats automatically reconfigure to that class configuration. However, where FFXIV exceeds this mechanic is in allowing the player to configure their class to their liking by allowing them the ability to distribute their own stats. So for example, Thaumaturge "A" might prefer more INT over MP to nuke harder, where Thaumaturge "B" prefers more MP over INT to nuke longer.

This is the system I envisioned. And nothing's been confirmed other than that they expect players to find a balance of sorts. They didn't say if it was a balance across all classes, they just said a balance. So they could very well mean that if you, say, distribute too much INT to your Magic class, you can redistribute your points to adjust/fix what you've done.

However, with that said, I expect SE to push some sort of balancing system. This, after all, is not WoW, and I don't want it to be. I know there will be complaints, but even the balancing system that is being pitched as class-wide, is less restricting because in FFXI you cannot distribute your physical stats in any way. SE doesn't hand it to you on a silver platter, and I don't expect or want them to.


Wouldn't mind a system like this so long as the price to respec those stats was enough to discourage it from happening every other battle but cheap enough not to break your bank when you really need to fix it.
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#45 Apr 09 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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For example, changing your class from Gladiator to Thaumaturge would result in your physical stats changing to whatever has been distributed for that class. Much like in FFXI when you change jobs, your stats automatically reconfigure to that class configuration. However, where FFXIV exceeds this mechanic is in allowing the player to configure their class to their liking by allowing them the ability to distribute their own stats. So for example, Thaumaturge "A" might prefer more INT over MP to nuke harder, where Thaumaturge "B" prefers more MP over INT to nuke longer.


This is what I was thinking. In Xi you could go to a moogle, change your job and the system would automatically remember what you had last equipped for that job (assuming the equipment is in your inventory).

I hope Xiv uses a similar system for switching between each discipline where it will remember the stats you had placed for each one. This would make perfect sense to me, I mean from the get-go it seemed like SE wanted us to be able to change discipline at will (outside of battle).

As for stat respec to change the way you have on presaved defaults (as mentioned above) I could see having to do in a town either at the crystal or an NPC (Moogle, Tavern, etc.) And I can see this is where this fee could take place. This is the only way I can see being able to freely change between jobs as described on website without a worry of respec abuse. The whole thought of changing stats seconds before a boss battle cuz of element or weaknesses makes me sick.

Edit:
I do still see some potential of abuse even with this system just depends on how far ppl are willing to go. For example, Player A = tank, B = mage, C = healer, D = damage. They make their way through dungeon fight their way to boss room. Outside boss room, A changes to damage, B to healer, C to mage, and D to tank (all of which they changed presets prior to leaving town specifically for boss). Now this depends on the fees of respec, but as I said its up to how far the player is willing to go, and I'm sure most will and could even make its way into common practice. This idea doesn't make me as sick as previous, but still doesn't seem right. I hope respec fees are in reasonable price range, and perhaps price will increase as PL increases.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 10:09am by Asyrian
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#46 Apr 09 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
in the beginning of the game some people will mix it up and allocate their stats for a more diverse character and some people will go strait for whatever makes them the strongest melee / mage.

i myself will be going the hyrid path. i want to try and make my lancer be as close to a drg/mage as i can. i am aware that this will most likely limit my potential however i am ready to deal with that.

it would be cool if stats affected abilities in a certain way. like how everyone thought chr did something for provoke, well what if in XIV your chr did make your provoke more or less powerful? dex/agi/luck could make steal/mug more accurate, maybe int would boost the effect of sleep on an AOE weaponskill or something. also in order to be an effective tank you need to be able to survive magical attacks so im sure everyone will need some int/mnd so the party doesnt wipe to any AOE spell.

hopefully there will be caps for stat allocation when you level up. lets say you get 10 stats when you level. but you can only put a max of 2 into one stat this will still allow for diversity while still focusing on what you primarily want to increase.

ex. my pseudo drg/mage upon Pys. lvl up. i would go 2 str, 2 dex, 1 hp, 1 mp, 2 vit, 1 mnd, 1 int and every other lvl take the 1 mp and put it in hp and the 1 int and put it in luck. so assuming that the cap was lvl 99 and all stats start at 10 i would have 208 str, 208 dex, 208 vit, 109 mnd, 59 int, 158 hp, 59 mp, 59 luck, 10 agi and 10 chr. to me this looks like a pretty balanced build even though my agi and chr are terrible. just my thoughts on the matter, i am looking forward to the stat distribution thing.
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#47 Apr 09 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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The only way I see this working is if the free stat allocation points we get are not from the same base stats for every job. I want to be able to choose a new role every time I log in without having to worry about reallocating twenty levels worth of stats. It takes the freedom from FFXI and adds unnecessary burden to it.

It seems they're also removing the need to replay lower level areas when changing roles as well, since your physical level will not go down. That was one of the things that kept low level areas populated and allowed new players to enjoy the game, and I'm disappointed to hear that it's not going to be that way in FFXIV. This new system just seems cumbersome and restrictive. I know the role I pick at the beginning of the game is going to have a lot more of an impact on how I play the game months later than it did in FFXI.
#48 Apr 09 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Calispel wrote:
That was one of the things that kept low level areas populated and allowed new players to enjoy the game, and I'm disappointed to hear that it's not going to be that way in FFXIV.


No one has confirmed anything like this, so there's no reason to assume or convince yourself (or others) that this is how it's going to be. From what I understand, the Alpha just got underway.

Everyone should take note to remember that Developer interviews recently have stated an approximate 50% completion tag on the game, which means the Alpha & Beta stages are going to play a large part in these very mechanics being discussed. No reason to jump to conclusions yet.

My only concern is that they retain a level of challenge I've come to expect from SE. I don't want it to be as hard & challenging as FFXI was out of the gate, but I certainly don't need another bland easy-peasy WoW-like MMO in my life. I don't want to change my physical stats a lot...I want to think about what I'm doing and really decide based on what I want and feel I need...not what every other number cruncher in the game publishes online as the cookie-cutter outline.
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#49AureliusSir the Mundane, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 10:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Fees paid to NPCs for Dynamis related shenanigans, chocobo fees, airship fees, items bought from vendors (I used to make my silver bullets exclusively from materials bought from NPC vendors), and auction fees are all currency sinks. Gil coming into the economy in FFXI was primarily from mission rewards, some quest rewards, and beastman kills. Any time there was a situation where you could make a substantial amount of gil selling items to NPCs, it wound up nerfed. (Rusty item fishing in Rabao comes to mind). At the time, what with FFXI being my first MMO and all, I always thought SE just resented the idea of players making a relatively easy income. I didn't realize that they did it because it contributed to inflation. The FFXI economy was a mess but now that SE has had 8 years to get a better idea of how things work, I'm sure it will be much better in FFXIV.
#50AureliusSir the Mundane, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 10:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not necessarily. In FFXI if you wanted to skill up a new weapon you didn't jump directly into Boyahda Tree with a skillup party if you were smart. You spent time bombing around lowbie zones where you could actually hit things (hitting being a prerequisite to earning skill ups). Just because your physical level means you might not earn xp from kills in lowbie zones doesn't mean they won't be used for skilling up. Remember that FFXIV focuses around your weapon skills as much if not moreso than your physical level.
#51 Apr 09 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Ryneguy wrote:
Calispel wrote:
That was one of the things that kept low level areas populated and allowed new players to enjoy the game, and I'm disappointed to hear that it's not going to be that way in FFXIV.


No one has confirmed anything like this, so there's no reason to assume or convince yourself (or others) that this is how it's going to be. From what I understand, the Alpha just got underway.

Everyone should take note to remember that Developer interviews recently have stated an approximate 50% completion tag on the game, which means the Alpha & Beta stages are going to play a large part in these very mechanics being discussed. No reason to jump to conclusions yet.


Sorry, I should have said "probably not going to be" instead of "it's going to be". Still though, the only way I see this not happening is if they have separate stat sheets for each role. Based on what they've revealed in the interview so far, stats persist through role changes and one would want to reallocate them all to be most effective. I don't expect that will change, but I suppose there's still hope that it could.

I share the same fears as you regarding the level of challenge from the game though. I've seen too many MMO's in the last few years move to the extreme WoW side of the scale and I'm hoping for something more from FFXIV. As you can probably tell from my previous post though, I'm not an optimist. WoW's subscription numbers, and the money they bring in, are too enticing.
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