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Physical Level = Cant Play All Classes Effectively?Follow

#52 Apr 09 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Calispel wrote:
It seems they're also removing the need to replay lower level areas when changing roles as well, since your physical level will not go down.


Not necessarily. In FFXI if you wanted to skill up a new weapon you didn't jump directly into Boyahda Tree with a skillup party if you were smart. You spent time bombing around lowbie zones where you could actually hit things (hitting being a prerequisite to earning skill ups). Just because your physical level means you might not earn xp from kills in lowbie zones doesn't mean they won't be used for skilling up. Remember that FFXIV focuses around your weapon skills as much if not moreso than your physical level.



That's true, I hadn't thought of it that way. On the other hand, allowing someone with high physical level to play with lower level characters without restrictions could really mess with the party dynamic. They may not have the skills or hit as often as their primary role, but they'll still be more effective based on stats. Either way, it won't be the same as being able to pick up a new job and enjoy it from the beginning on the same character as you could on FFXI. Maybe they'll have caps on stats based on disciple level and only allow you to re-allocate stats up to those caps. I could see that working.
#53 Apr 09 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Hmmm maybe we are thinking "too much" in terms of FFXI (or not enough)?
I agree, what really is the point of a Physical Level if there is so much focus on the Archetypes?
From all the information I've read, they are trying to get away from "set jobs" (as based off one of Elmers articles in why they named the archetypes the way they did; and trying to rid of "Job Class Stipulations".
Remember we can play with more than just plain "stats". There are also elemental affinities we need to consider (effecting our weakness/resistance and effectivness said spell/ability has with said element).
We don't know for sure if these base stats will even function in the exact same way they did in XI.
Sure, things like STR are pretty obvious for melee attack. But what about Weapon Skills? In FFXI, INT also was a modifier for Red Lotus Blade, Which again makes an appearance as a WS in FFXIV. What if INT plays just as much of a role to a Gladiator for certain skills as DEX would to certain skills for a Mage?
And then, maybe Fire element affinity would further power up Red Lotus Blade. (and weaken some kinda Frost element WS?)
And lets not forget the actual archetype/weapon skill. Perhaps the archytype level also greatly makes a difference in the effectivness of the skill or ability (as skill levels in FFXI effect the power/accuracy of weapons/spells).
Also, then there is equipment and accessories and food and who knows what kinda buffs there are to supplement our stats.
The way they have the "main and sub" weapon also is starting to remind me of FFXI... maybe we wont be limited to our active job to use certain other abilities?
#54 Apr 09 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe they'll have caps on stats based on disciple level and only allow you to re-allocate stats up to those caps. I could see that working.


I like the way this sounds. Still worries me on being able to constantly change your stats around to adjust to certain situations, which sounds fair the way it should be, but I see that with abilities, not stats, seems unrealistic.

I hope there is a way for system to remember how you set stats for each discipline like changing job in Xi and it remembering equipment. It would get quite annoying if you had to manually change it everytime you changed jobs. Good example is Blu, ppl been wanting a way to save spell lists for a while. Ya at first it gets annoying having to re-equip spells each time you change to Blu, or go into a different battle scenario, but after a while you put up with it, and start to remember exactly what you have set. May be a bit of a timesink changing stats everytime you change weapons, but SE likes timesinks. I just hope for quick changes you don't have to do this everytime and system remembers how you last had it.
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#55 Apr 09 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I could see your player level being capped to whatever weapon level you are currently.

As mentioned before, I hope that if they do go the route of changing stats that they include presets.


Along the lines of guildleves, they've said as the players increase, difficulty goes up, which would lend to the members being specific jobs. If difficulty isn't as great you can compromise physical stats for multiple classes.


It seems kinda of restricting and elitism will take place in the max party scenarios, but it seems like for the casual player it will really add a lot of flexibility for class and stat choice.
#56 Apr 09 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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MrNumptyk makes a valid point.

I think the best thing SE can do is have 4 different physical levels (instead of just 1). Each physical level is paired with 1 discipline (since there are 4 disciplines). When you switch disciplines, your physical level changes to what you got it up to on that specific discipline. This would mean you would have to level up a total of 4 physical level charts, if you wanted to play a class out of all 4 disciplines. Also this way the stats wouldn't differ so much that you would "need" to change the stats every single time you switched classes from 1 discipline to another.

For example you have 2 classes that you leveled up, and that you commonly switch between. One of the classes is a mage class and the other is a melee class. You start off as the melee class which would have the physical level that you set for all disciple of war classes. When you switch over to your mage class, you now have the physical level that you set for all of your disciple of mage classes. Same goes for the other 2 disciplines as well. The ability too change your stats will still come in handy because what if you no longer used Marauder and now uses pugilist as your melee class. You might want to change the disciple of war physical level from high str to high agility or something. The ability to change your stats should come with some sort of price as well if this is the system they use, so you couldn't just change every time you switched classes within that discipline and so a balance physical level was still appreciated.

That would serve the purpose for having all the classes listed under a discipline. It tells you which physical level chart that the class will go by.

If this is not the system being used, I think it would be a huge upgrade over only having 1 physical level chart and having to continuously change stats. This also would not provide a need to have multiple characters because of the hassle to change stats.

If there is only 1 physical level chart then I will be having 2 characters, one for mage and the other for melee. 100str 0int for a melee class will be way better then 50 50, and link-shells will also look for strong over hybrid. Hybrid works well with low numbers but if you have a normal amount of numbers,than strong classes would definitely out due a party full a hybrids. If you have a party full of people that is the best at their roles and you have all roles covered, than there is no place for a hybrid.



Edited, Apr 9th 2010 2:06pm by HocusP
#57 Apr 09 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm, I dunno, having presets for each archetype seems to defeat the point to me?
More strategy is finding the perfect balance between Skill level, weapon/gear stats, affinity for the given situation.
#58 Apr 09 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
MrNumptyk makes a valid point.

I think the best thing SE can do is have 4 different physical levels (instead of just 1). Each physical level is paired with 1 discipline (since there are 4 disciplines). When you switch disciplines, your physical level changes to what you got it up to on that specific discipline. This would mean you would have to level up a total of 4 physical level charts, if you wanted to play a class out of all 4 disciplines. Also this way the stats wouldn't differ so much that you would "need" to change the stats every single time you switched classes from 1 discipline to another.


Not likely to work. Archers are disciples of war, but you're not likely going to be focusing on the same stats as an archer as you would as a tanking gladiator. It sounds like you're going to have one physical level that carries over from class to class and is used to determine access to things like guildleves, missions, etc.

I really don't think it needs to be as complicated as people are hypothesizing. I would expect that there will be as many people needing a preset stat allocation for every discipline/class as there were people with Maat Caps in FFXI. It seems like people have grabbed hold of this diversity concept and forgotten that just because you can be all classes doesn't mean you will be, or at least not at such a level that you're going to want to be min-maxing stats for every single class. Two presets would likely be plenty for the vast majority of players and those hardcore enough to need more than that are also those who are likely hardcore enough that they'd have time to reallocate stats as needed. More presets would be nice, yes. Everything flip-flopping around at the push of a button, no.

One physical level. I'm calling it now. Not one for every discipline, not one for every class, not one for Randy the Angry Goat. One physical level as the devs have set. Stats that can be reallocated as the devs have said. All that's left is to determine how readily/easily players will be able to reallocate those stats. Multiple this, multiple that, something for this, something for that...if you're not careful, the game becomes clunky and cumbersome and starts to revolve around numbers instead of gameplay. That might suit some players, but certainly not the majority. Even the e-peen min-maxers get sick of having to re-tweak and re-tune all the time. Simple is good.
#59 Apr 09 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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From the article Elmer posted today:
Quote:
- Regarding character customization, will there be any limitations on attaching skills from one Class onto another?

Komoto: If we can, we want to allow players to use skills from other Classes on their current one. However, there are many things to test out regarding this, such as how the effects of skills will be weakened when used with other Classes. For example, maybe a certain combination of skills doesn't work well together, or perhaps another combination is too powerful -- we want to maintain game balance as we go forward. There will, of course, also be some skills that we simply won't allow to be attached to other Classes. At this stage, we are still looking to see how things work, so feel free to try out any


So... there could be alot of benefit having more balanced stats if you are using some skills you've learned from others?
#60 Apr 09 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I see one physical level per character as a burden and destroying the ability to enjoy each new job from its roots without starting a new character, but then multiple physical levels per character defeats the point of the system in the first place. From what I understand, they have the game designed around one physical level per character.

I just don't understand why they decided to go with a system like this, knowing how much people enjoyed the job changing freedom we had in FFXI. The new system is only more open if you stick with one disciple per character, otherwise it will just be a burden at best or extremely restrictive its worst.
#61AureliusSir the Mundane, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 12:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's another side to that coin. In the absence of a physical level, how do you determine what area of content you're suited to contribute to? This came up way back when the game was first announced and we were told that there would be no levels and xp in the traditional sense. There will be nothing stopping you from going out and enjoying a class "from its roots" because your physical level isn't going to determine what spells and abilities you have access to when you switch classes. That is based on your skill with the weapons/spells associated with each individual class. Just because you won't have to go out and grind xp to improve your Conjurer if you've reached a high level with your Marauder doesn't mean you can just switch from Marauder -> Conjurer and take part in higher level content.
#62 Apr 09 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:


There's another side to that coin. In the absence of a physical level, how do you determine what area of content you're suited to contribute to? This came up way back when the game was first announced and we were told that there would be levels and xp in the traditional sense. There will be nothing stopping you from going out and enjoying a class "from its roots" because your physical level isn't going to determine what spells and abilities you have access to when you switch classes. That is based on your skill with the weapons/spells associated with each individual class. Just because you won't have to go out and grind xp to improve your Conjurer if you've reached a high level with your Marauder doesn't mean you can just switch from Marauder -> Conjurer and take part in higher level content.


I guess I'll have to reserve further judgment until after its clear how big a role stats have on combat effectiveness. As long as there are no skill caps imposed by class level, I perceive the system that I've seen so far as being one like FFXI with a main 'level' but with job abilities determined by your weapon skill level instead. Attempting higher level content with a lower class level would be akin to having an under-leveled weapon skill for your level in FFXI.

So you are forced to go back to killing rats to skill up when changing to a new role, which is good. How does it work when I have say, 100 STR (or whatever a high value would be) from a Marauder and then I switch to a Pugilist. I'll hit less often and be limited in my attacks sure, but will I be defeating everything in one blow? It doesn't seem like you'll ever be truly 'level 1' again in a new role, unless maybe the effectiveness of stat values goes up as your role level increases?
#63 Apr 09 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Calispel wrote:
So you are forced to go back to killing rats to skill up when changing to a new role, which is good. How does it work when I have say, 100 STR (or whatever a high value would be) from a Marauder and then I switch to a Pugilist. I'll hit less often and be limited in my attacks sure, but will I be defeating everything in one blow? It doesn't seem like you'll ever be truly 'level 1' again in a new role, unless maybe the effectiveness of stat values goes up as your role level increases?


I just don't see where SE would do something like give a lvl 1 pugilist 100str. If they did, there would have to be some formula that made the 100 str only equate to a minor difference in damage.

Seeing as how adjustable the stats are though, it would make more sense for them to just have caps on stats based on weapon level. A weapon lvl 1 pugilist should not have 100 str, and will be maxed out at 10 str for lvl 1.
#64 Apr 09 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
I just don't see where SE would do something like give a lvl 1 pugilist 100str. If they did, there would have to be some formula that made the 100 str only equate to a minor difference in damage.

Seeing as how adjustable the stats are though, it would make more sense for them to just have caps on stats based on weapon level. A weapon lvl 1 pugilist should not have 100 str, and will be maxed out at 10 str for lvl 1.


I hope that's the case. Using the physical level system still leaves the burdensome mechanic for stat reallocation when changing from melee to magic focused disciples though. On one hand its overpowering to allow players to custom tweak their stats for specific encounters so it should be restricted, but if it's restricted then that limits the ability to try out both magic and melee disciples freely.
#65 Apr 09 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps they will implement a "custom physical level" feature. I'm thinking a system similar to Custom Classes in Call of Duty. They give you 5 or so Physical Level templates that you can change and update any time you want, and they save to your character. That way, before you go out adventuring, you can preset your Physical Level templates to the classes that you may need. When you change your class, just select the appropriate template and have at it.
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#66 Apr 09 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
Xarall wrote:
Perhaps they will implement a "custom physical level" feature. I'm thinking a system similar to Custom Classes in Call of Duty. They give you 5 or so Physical Level templates that you can change and update any time you want, and they save to your character. That way, before you go out adventuring, you can preset your Physical Level templates to the classes that you may need. When you change your class, just select the appropriate template and have at it.


I think that in order to avoid disappointment or confusion later on down the line, folks might want to start getting used to the idea now that there will only be one physical level per character. Levels are not the focus. Skills are.
#67 Apr 09 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Levels are not the focus. Skills are.


Couldn't agree more, especially with the different attack meters that are being used (I believe on for accuracy one for power?).
#68 Apr 09 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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they clearly seem to be aiming both skill and stat points in the game around class caps vs total amount earned for each stat.

In other words you can max out every class with the system they have described.
#69 Apr 09 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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I am pretty sure its going to work very close to how FFXI is now. Level up one job and then you want to change to something lower or a new job all together when you switch your level will go down to match your new job.

I dont have any details but I am pretty sure this is how it will play out.
#70 Apr 09 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
EosRahh wrote:
I am pretty sure its going to work very close to how FFXI is now. Level up one job and then you want to change to something lower or a new job all together when you switch your level will go down to match your new job.

I dont have any details but I am pretty sure this is how it will play out.


I'm not sure that SE could be more clear that your physical level will be independent of your class. Classes have not been announced to have levels, so how will your level change to match your class?
#71 Apr 09 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure that SE could be more clear that your physical level will be independent of your class. Classes have not been announced to have levels, so how will your level change to match your class?


I will have to reframe from stateing my case as I would have to break the NDA in order to do so. As not wanting to get on the bad side of the fine people here on Allah I wont.

As well as its just my thought on it.

Besides everyone is always wrong in your sea of right so why bother wasteing my time argueing.
#72 Apr 09 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure that SE could be more clear that your physical level will be independent of your class. Classes have not been announced to have levels, so how will your level change to match your class?


Umm, didn't one of the Famitsu screens show a Thaurmwatever (sorry don't kno the spelling) leveling to Rank 2?
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#73 Apr 09 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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Umm, didn't one of the Famitsu screens show a Thaurmwatever (sorry don't kno the spelling) leveling to Rank 2?


Yes, yes it did.
#74 Apr 09 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm brand new to posting so bare with me on this.

I think its important to remember to take all this and put it together with everything we learned thus far. Even with physical levels, you can still attache some skills to other classes, and your weapon will suffer some form of degradation meaning you will need to change to some other class in some situations.

With weapon degradation this probably means you will need to switch to a different class on the fly even if you made one single class just the way you like it (or carry alot of the same weapon.) So this could mean someone like a Gladiator might set up there stats to tank really well along with Marauder skills. They also keep some hand to hand weapons on them to switch to a Pugilist on the fly with Gladiator skills to keep tanking should their Gladiator sword start to fail. So the stat allocation works well for two classes when you need to change.

Or say a always have mage stats and a blacksmith hammer so you can flip flop from mage support to weapon support on the fly. Stuff like that.

#75 Apr 09 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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But I think that's the whole point of the system, balance. How would it be balanced if you could switch from a godly melee to a godly healer on the fly? It wouldn't.

If you want to be able to play melee and healer at the same time you'll have to balance your stats accordingly. This will ofcourse mean you won't be great at either but you'll still have the benefit of being able to switch between the two roles at will. After hearing about 15 player parties this makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how it'll become extremely useful. (For example being able to switch seamlessly from back-up tank to back-up healer)

But then again I'm sure there will also be multiple disciplines that play off eachother and won't have to be so "gimped" when switching between them. Say a blade wielding discipline and the blacksmith discipline?

Honestly we still don't have enough information about the system at large to be making any rash assumptions.
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I totally agree, i wouldnt want a player to be able to switch on the spot from uber mage to uber fighter. What strategy is that. I dont want this to be so easy its not fun!
#76AureliusSir the Mundane, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 11:10 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Class rank =/= physical level?
#77AureliusSir the Mundane, Posted: Apr 09 2010 at 11:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've never played an MMO that featured durability loss at such a rate that you'd need to carry around multiple weapons to swap in for the ones that break. If your gear is on the verge of breaking, you stop to repair. You don't swap weapons mid-fight because the fully repaired gear you had at the beginning of the fight has started to break.
#78 Apr 09 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I am 99% sure that either physical level wont make or break your class or you will be able to max out the appropriate stats for each class however you need. For example, look at how merits worked in FFXI. so what if my rdm was missing 40 mp...
#79 Apr 10 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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You can still switch to any class, your stats jsut don't change from class to class it seems. They say you cna alter your stats but yeah it sounds like you wont be able to be like "what should I come as, Rdm or Sam?" anymore because some task would be involved in changing those stats.


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#80 Apr 10 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Not likely to work. Archers are disciples of war, but you're not likely going to be focusing on the same stats as an archer as you would as a tanking gladiator. It sounds like you're going to have one physical level that carries over from class to class and is used to determine access to things like guildleves, missions, etc.


You should of kept reading the whole post. In that case you would still have the ability to change stats around but it wouldn't be a need. One physical level would most likely mean "omg I suck if I don't switch stats around" which makes switching your stats is a need every-time you go from one discipline to another. My way you can clearly function well without switching your stats around, but its still available for the people that would want to max/min at a class for a price. This is why grouping the classes this way was a smart idea. There are certain stats that all classes of that discipline find useful such as mp for the mage discipline etc. This way the stats will be set in a way where enough stuff for any class is set so you can function and class switch on the fly, instead of having to change all your stats each time or be very gimped.

I mean it would definitely make sense to have a separate physical level chart for each discipline (not each class like on FFXI). SE are not retards, they know people want to class change from mage to melee classes, and they said they wanted to expand on that system, not take a step back. Having to set your stats every time or be completely useless will definitely be taking a step back from the FFXI job system. Having a separate physical chart for each discipline makes sense in a few different ways. First you can build your character so you are good at every class in that discipline or so you are the greatest at just 1 job in that discipline. The difference is you can still function at all the other classes in that discipline, with the stats set like that, especially if you add in gear.

Having 1 physical level would make no sense at all. This would mean SE had no idea that people would want to switch from melee to mage job (like in FFXI), which I just find unbelievable.



Edited, Apr 10th 2010 9:18am by HocusP
#81 Apr 10 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Quote:

Not likely to work. Archers are disciples of war, but you're not likely going to be focusing on the same stats as an archer as you would as a tanking gladiator. It sounds like you're going to have one physical level that carries over from class to class and is used to determine access to things like guildleves, missions, etc.


You should of kept reading the whole post. In that case you would still have the ability to change stats around but it wouldn't be a need. One physical level would most likely mean "omg I suck if I don't switch stats around" which makes switching your stats is a need every-time you go from one discipline to another. My way you can clearly function well without switching your stats around, but its still available for the people that would want to max/min at a class for a price. This is why grouping the classes this way was a smart idea. There are certain stats that all classes of that discipline find useful such as mp for the mage discipline etc. This way the stats will be set in a way where enough stuff for any class is set so you can function and class switch on the fly, instead of having to change all your stats each time or be very gimped.


I did read the whole post. There's no need for multiple physical levels. If you have presets, you accomplish the same goal without overly complicating everything. If you've got one physical level for each discipline, you're still likely going to want to change stats around between classes within the same discipline, so your idea solves nothing. Remember that your physical level is the one that grows with xp. So with four physical levels, the purpose of one overarching physical level that relates to your character independently of class is destroyed. Let's use the proper terms if we're going to have a discussion and not apply our own meaning to terms we've been given and think we're doing ourselves any favors, ya?

Quote:
I mean it would definitely make sense to have a separate physical level chart for each discipline (not each class like on FFXI). SE are not retards, they know people want to class change from mage to melee classes, and they said they wanted to expand on that system, not take a step back. Having to set your stats every time or be completely useless will definitely be taking a step back from the FFXI job system. Having a separate physical chart for each discipline makes sense in a few different ways. First you can build your character so you are good at every class in that discipline or so you are the greatest at just 1 job in that discipline. The difference is you can still function at all the other classes in that discipline, with the stats set like that, especially if you add in gear.

Having 1 physical level would make no sense at all. This would mean SE had no idea that people would want to switch from melee to mage job (like in FFXI), which I just find unbelievable.


What about (as in my example) people who have no significant interest in caster classes (or melee classes, for that matter)? Your idea (on the surface) solves the issue based on what you want, but we don't think big picture on these boards, do we?
#82 Apr 10 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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What about (as in my example) people who have no significant interest in caster classes (or melee classes, for that matter)? Your idea (on the surface) solves the issue based on what you want, but we don't think big picture on these boards, do we?


Then you wouldn't have to bother with that physical level chart since you have no interest in a class in that discipline. What are you missing from this example, if you want to change from melee to mage then this serves a huge service for you. If you have no interest in changing from disciplines, then you would be set on whatever physical chart you have set for the discipline you do want to play. In other words, if you only want to play 1 discipline, it would be just like only having 1 physical level chart in the game (because the other 3 have no impact on you at all). You would only be required to level 1 physical chart since you only want to play 1 discipline. For the people that would want to play more then 1 discipline, you would have to level up the # of disciplines you would like to play, with the max being 4 (because there are only 4 disciplines).

Read more carefully, then tell me what are you not getting. Its ok to say that you would rather have only 1 chart and change your stats 100 times a day. As in your example, it would be the same as in you only having 1 chart since you only want to play 1 discipline, and since only that 1 chart would effect you in any way, shape, or form.

The fact that it uses exp makes no difference in my system. You will still use exp to level whatever discipline physical chart you would want to level up. The only difference in having 4 charts instead of 1, is that the people that want to change from discipline to a different discipline, would have to acquire a larger amount of exp to have to set stats for the multiple charts. The people that only want to play 1 discipline, would only have to use their exp for that one chart. This pretty much is the same in FFXI (the concept of leveling), if you want 75 warrior and 75 blackmage, you would need double the amount of exp that a person that just wants 1 75 job needs.

The big positive difference is that you can change classes on the fly and function well without having to reset your stats every time. The only negative for you to be able to do so, you would have to exp more then a person that only wants to play 1 discipline, but that is common in and MMO. If you want more classes leveled than somebody else, then of course you will have to obtain more exp then them.
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I did read the whole post. There's no need for multiple physical levels. If you have presets, you accomplish the same goal without overly complicating everything. If you've got one physical level for each discipline, you're still likely going to want to change stats around between classes within the same discipline, so your idea solves nothing. Remember that your physical level is the one that grows with xp. So with four physical levels, the purpose of one overarching physical level that relates to your character independently of class is destroyed. Let's use the proper terms if we're going to have a discussion and not apply our own meaning to terms we've been given and think we're doing ourselves any favors, ya?


It actually solves a HUGE problem, it would solve the need to change your stats around 20 times a day, with the want to change your stats around. It would take away needing to do it, and for the people that wants to change their stats around still can. The ability to change stats will still be in handy but it wouldn't be a requirement each time.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 3:20pm by HocusP

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 3:29pm by HocusP
#83 Apr 10 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Mundane wrote:
Asyrian wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure that SE could be more clear that your physical level will be independent of your class. Classes have not been announced to have levels, so how will your level change to match your class?


Umm, didn't one of the Famitsu screens show a Thaurmwatever (sorry don't kno the spelling) leveling to Rank 2?


Class rank =/= physical level?


From the screen I want to say "Hand-to-Hand Rank" = "Pugilist Rank".
"Physical Level" = "Character Level", or seems that way to me at least.

Could be wrong tho not too much info here other than a picture. That's the way it looks to me, for all I kno "Weapon Rank", "Class Rank", and "Physical Level" could all be seperate things even. At bottom was Ability button, maybe Class Rank is under there to suggest this, but since Weapon = Class I'm gonna continue to assume this until we kno for sure.
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#84 Apr 10 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
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What about (as in my example) people who have no significant interest in caster classes (or melee classes, for that matter)? Your idea (on the surface) solves the issue based on what you want, but we don't think big picture on these boards, do we?


Then you wouldn't have to bother with that physical level chart since you have no interest in a class in that discipline. What are you missing from this example, if you want to change from melee to mage then this serves a huge service for you. If you have no interest in changing from disciplines, then you would be set on whatever physical chart you have set for the discipline you do want to play. In other words, if you only want to play 1 discipline, it would be just like only having 1 physical level chart in the game (because the other 3 have no impact on you at all). You would only be required to level 1 physical chart since you only want to play 1 discipline. For the people that would want to play more then 1 discipline, you would have to level up the # of disciplines you would like to play, with the max being 4 (because there are only 4 disciplines).

The fact that it uses exp makes no difference in my system. You will still use exp to level whatever discipline physical chart you would want to level up. The only difference in having 4 charts instead of 1, is that the people that want to change from discipline to a different discipline, would have to acquire a larger amount of exp to have to set stats for the multiple charts. The people that only want to play 1 discipline, would only have to use their exp for that one chart. This pretty much is the same in FFXI (the concept of leveling), if you want 75 warrior and 75 blackmage, you would need double the amount of exp that a person that just wants 1 75 job needs.

The big positive difference is that you can change classes on the fly and function well without having to reset your stats every time. The only negative for you to be able to do so, you would have to exp more then a person that only wants to play 1 discipline, but that is common in and MMO. If you want more classes leveled than somebody else, then of course you will have to obtain more exp then them. The ability to change stats will sitll be in handy but it wouldn't be a requirement each time.


I think you've missed the point of the physical level concept. This is not FFXI. This is not a conventional leveling system relative to any other MMO. SE has said from the beginning that progressing your character will be based around your skills, not grinding xp from mobs. If you break away from that, "must xp to level" mindset", everything makes a lot more sense. The physical level, as it has been described, is independent of class or discipline. It's applied to your character as a whole. It wouldn't surprise me to see it influence such things as skill caps, caps on total stat points available to allocate, determining whether or not a mob will be aggressive (ie. 'Too Weak', to use the FFXI term) and any variety of other things that would otherwise be a bit clunky to manage strictly on a skill-based ranking system.

Underneath that physical level, thinking in terms of a hierarchy, would be the individual class ranks. It seems important that these two things not be confused. I would expect that your individual class ranks will be more a function of your skills and, while perhaps capped by your physical level, will otherwise function independently from it. SE could set up class ranks in such a way as to scale access to the maximum stat points you have to allocate as defined by your physical level, or they could leave it alone and by all means allow your Rank 1 Pugilist to run around with base stats on par with your Rank 50 Gladiator. Either/or...that's a decision for them to make based on how they feel progressing additional classes beyond your primary focus should be tuned. The concept of class ranks introduces a variety of interesting opportunities for SE later on down the line, particularly if they're able to follow through with their plans to equip <class A> skill(s) on <class B>. Class rank =/= physical level.

You're thinking in terms of progressing your character in xp terms...the physical level. Either you haven't thought of or are choosing to ignore the concept of progressing your character at the class level under the class rank system, which, from the sounds of things, will have absolutely nothing to do with xp and everything to do with skills. It doesn't seem to matter to you that SE has said they're moving away from base progression revolving around xp. That's what you're familiar with and rather than...eek...big picture thinking, that's how you format your ideas.

Try not to. Hypothesis is only effective when it's built on what you know, and all we know is what we've been told (to include that what we've been told can change). You're lumping all melee classes together, and all caster classes together, etc. In other words, what you're saying is that people who prefer (for example) melee/physical classes exclusively will have a progression advantage over people who prefer a bit more diversity.

No.

The concern from the OP was whether or not the physical level will mean that you can't play all classes effectively. With the announcement that you'll be able to reallocate your stat points, the OP's concern was addressed. You will be able to play all classes effectively. Period. That's all we need to know. The question after that becomes how easy it will be to switch between different classes if you have two or more classes that use substantially different stats. The physical level/stat (re)allocation concept is a workable one. It doesn't need to be changed in order to address ease of changing classes. What needs to be addressed is the potential tedium of reallocating stat points manually every time you change classes. The (simple) solution (what with simple being good and all) is to allow for two or more stat presets, not twist and butcher the physical level system because people can't seem to break out of the xp mindset.
#85The One and Only AureliusSir, Posted: Apr 10 2010 at 1:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If physical level is the same as class rank, why would they use different terms to describe them? I'm predicting physical level is global and class rank is based on skills.
#86 Apr 10 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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#87 Apr 10 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with what your saying here. I guess the problem is really getting into the mind set of how important 'skills' or the rank of a class will be.

I think if we did take FFXI as an example...the way it might work is that once you hit level 50 of any job you have the stats of a player at level 50 for all jobs you have unlocked and you can adjust things like STR, HP, MP and all that as you see fit when changing jobs.

But even though your stats are level 50, you only have the skills and abilities of that one Job you leveled to 50. So if you level WAR to 50 you have all the skills of a level 50 WAR. If you change to a THF you are a level 50 THF...you just have the skills and abilities of a level 1 THF. Your by no means a useless THF since you can still have the stats to fight...its just that you need to work more as a THF to start getting all the skills. I'm assuming that's what where the Class Rank comes into play.

Its really a way of keeping everything balanced, so you can change to any class and still start having fun and playing with your friends, but not have all of cool skills handed to you. Or well, I'm assuming that might be how it works. could be completely different.
#88The One and Only AureliusSir, Posted: Apr 10 2010 at 8:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nothing to see here (lewl)...
#89 Apr 10 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if our character is lvl 50, and our job rank is 0, if we would still be able to kill lvl 1 mobs to gain job ranks... Will mobs give us Job XP even if we don't get any physical XP?
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#90 Apr 10 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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If physical level is the same as class rank, why would they use different terms to describe them? I'm predicting physical level is global and class rank is based on skills.


This is exactly what I been trying to say. Best way I can try to describe it is D&D. I never got into it but played a game with old roommates. From what I understand is say you take Warrior to Lv.15 and decide to change to Sorceror and take it to Lv.5. Now you're a Lv.15 Warrior Lv.5 Sorceror Lv.20 character, stats never decrease and increase each level based on current class and the roll of a die.

Tho I can see it being similar to this I can tell its gonna be a tad bit different. From Famitsu screens you gain exp and class exp. I'm assuming exp goes into Physical Lvl and Class exp obviously into Class/Weapon Rank. Heard somewhere about weapon skill ups but have yet to see it in any screens, so wondering is class exp = weapon skill up? Also notice how you gain more class exp than normal exp from both pics, one saying so and the other as the bar on weapon rank is higher than physical lvl. To me looks like we'll gain more Class Ranks > Physical Levels. I'm sure at first not gonna be too much to notice but say getting 6-7 class ranks in different classes, physical lvl still around 3-4. Not sure on exact numbers or level caps, but can see something of the sort. If I remember right it was 3 exp / 9 c.exp. So when reaching Lv.30 in only one class, Physical Level still only at 10? Don't know exactly if this is how it will play but can't wait to see.

With PL raising at such a low rate and class leveling 3x speed, I'm betting with each Rank-up we get stats to put how we like, and during a PL maybe a bigger bonus?
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#91 Apr 10 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Not necessarily. In FFXI if you wanted to skill up a new weapon you didn't jump directly into Boyahda Tree with a skillup party if you were smart. You spent time bombing around lowbie zones where you could actually hit things (hitting being a prerequisite to earning skill ups). Just because your physical level means you might not earn xp from kills in lowbie zones doesn't mean they won't be used for skilling up. Remember that FFXIV focuses around your weapon skills as much if not moreso than your physical level.


Yes, but will lower level people gain XP with a higher level character in their party? Can say a Physical Level 5/Pugilist rank 5 get both kinds of XP when grouping with a Physical Level 50/Conj rank 5 character?
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#92 Apr 10 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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look, based on the videos we have seen thus far its going to work like this.

How much HP/MP you have
1. Class you are currently playing ( this makes sure you have a base mp pool as a caster ect )
2. Gear, race, food and buffs ect ( This will be the second largest one until gear starts to get really good. )
3. Physical level ( While nice it wont amount to much more than Race did in FFXI. Nobody will really care where you put these points )

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 1:14am by thorazinekizzez
#93The One and Only AureliusSir, Posted: Apr 10 2010 at 11:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Didn't the galka Roegadyn Seawolf Pugilist in one of the screenshots have something like over 300 MP? I think you're mistaken about the impact of physical level. The difference in stats between a naked level 1 job and a naked level 75 job in FFXI was fairly substantial.
#94 Apr 10 2010 at 11:51 PM Rating: Default
shinichoco wrote:
Quote:

Not necessarily. In FFXI if you wanted to skill up a new weapon you didn't jump directly into Boyahda Tree with a skillup party if you were smart. You spent time bombing around lowbie zones where you could actually hit things (hitting being a prerequisite to earning skill ups). Just because your physical level means you might not earn xp from kills in lowbie zones doesn't mean they won't be used for skilling up. Remember that FFXIV focuses around your weapon skills as much if not moreso than your physical level.


Yes, but will lower level people gain XP with a higher level character in their party? Can say a Physical Level 5/Pugilist rank 5 get both kinds of XP when grouping with a Physical Level 50/Conj rank 5 character?


We don't know the answer to that yet. It would make sense that you would be able to earn class xp, but whether or not you'd be able to earn xp towards physical levels if you're grouped with someone of a much higher physical level is yet to be seen, especially considering limitations in the alpha atm.
#95 Apr 11 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
We don't know the answer to that yet. It would make sense that you would be able to earn class xp, but whether or not you'd be able to earn xp towards physical levels if you're grouped with someone of a much higher physical level is yet to be seen, especially considering limitations in the alpha atm.


Then let's assume, till we get more information at least, that the answer is as stated here. If I choose to level a crafter or something for the first month and gain no physical levels, could affect my chances to get groups later on. I doubt a month will really affect it THAT much since many people will still be coming into the game, but what about a year after release? In FFXI we have (or had) people going back to level new jobs now that they got X job to 75. We have people leveling subjobs for jobs they are leveling... we have people who are going back to old leveling grounds so that new players still have people to group and level with.

Edit: ****, we had players leveling new jobs to 30 just to get through the promys! (I know that was my initial reason for leveling WAR... till I actually found it fun =) )

I'm not sure I am completely comfortable with the idea that SE is making the game "casual/solo" friendly enough that they are not considering the replay of lower level content... does that make any sense?

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 6:36am by shinichoco
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#96 Apr 11 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Decent
it just occured to me that i played a game with a similar leveling system, blue dragon for the xbox 360.

each character had their own level, but each job class in the game also had a level. when your character leveled your basic stats would go up and when the job leveled, the stats pertinent to that job increased a little and you gained access to new abilities.

for example you could be a lvl 50 with a lvl 1 thief class, you would still be around lvl 50 in strength but you woul have very limited abilities for your class. you could mix and match abilities from all the jobs onto your character essentially making your own jobs in the game.

so what im thinking in XIV is that your physical level will allow you to allocate your own stats but as your job level increases certain stats will automatically increase depending on what job you are leveling. when you change jobs your stats will change to what you have allocated via physical level and what the current level of the job you are playing is. thus you CAN play all the jobs effectively while also being able to be unique from everyone else.

so you wont have to change your stats all the time, just in the event you want to try something different, like your gladiator is a tank statwise but you want to try DDing for once, so you change the stats you allocated to more of a DD role.
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#97 Apr 11 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
shinichoco wrote:
Quote:
We don't know the answer to that yet. It would make sense that you would be able to earn class xp, but whether or not you'd be able to earn xp towards physical levels if you're grouped with someone of a much higher physical level is yet to be seen, especially considering limitations in the alpha atm.


Then let's assume, till we get more information at least, that the answer is as stated here. If I choose to level a crafter or something for the first month and gain no physical levels, could affect my chances to get groups later on. I doubt a month will really affect it THAT much since many people will still be coming into the game, but what about a year after release? In FFXI we have (or had) people going back to level new jobs now that they got X job to 75. We have people leveling subjobs for jobs they are leveling... we have people who are going back to old leveling grounds so that new players still have people to group and level with.

Edit: ****, we had players leveling new jobs to 30 just to get through the promys! (I know that was my initial reason for leveling WAR... till I actually found it fun =) )

I'm not sure I am completely comfortable with the idea that SE is making the game "casual/solo" friendly enough that they are not considering the replay of lower level content... does that make any sense?


Well, unfortunately, forced mechanics from 8 year old MMOs are probably not the best basis for comparison. No MMO is ever devoid of new players. ****, even FFXI is still adding new players every month. But do you honestly think after all the rave reviews SE got about the level sync concept/system that they were going to abandon that concept in XIV? It could be that they'll base any group xp penalties (re: physical level) on class rank. It could be any number of things. How they're going to scale it we don't know. How you're going to best go about progressing your character based on how they design the game is up to you. It's not up to devs to cater to each individual player's preferences. If they're smart, they impose the least amount of their collective developer will on the players as they can, which gives you choice. If you've got your heart set on progressing your character in groups, you need to realize that you're sharing an MMO with a great many people who will be fully accustomed to doing a large segment of their pre-cap progression solo. No MMO developer will ever keep all players happy all the time. What you have to ask yourself is whether or not you think you're going to get enough entertainment value out of the combat system and the story lines to warrant abandoning preconceptions and old ways of doing things (if necessary) and embrace something new. If you're willing to do that, you're likely in good shape for FFXIV. If you're not, a new MMO in general is probably not for you (yet).

Really, it's too early to be getting uncomfortable about this or disappointed by that. Let the information trickle in and unless everything you read has you convinced that it's going to be a horrible game, get involved with the open beta, go in with an open mind, and see if the changes improve on or detract from those things you enjoyed about XI.
#98 Apr 11 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Think I'd like it if the stats weren't super important, but were instead steps toward unlocking new classes while your gear and skill served more for your combat effectiveness.

For example, we can say the game currently has starter jobs not unlike XI's WAR, THF, MNK, etc.. Now, if you want to unlock some kind of DRK equivalent, you'd need Marauder to X level, Thaumaterge to Y, then maybe STR and INT to Q and Z respectively. Meet those criteria and you can start equipping "DRK" weapons, and in turn getting skills that could help offset a glass cannon STR model for Marauder or INT for Thaumaterge. Basically advanced jobs with a twist.

Of course, with respecs, maybe later on down the road some combination of pugilist, marksman, agility, and dexterity values could allow you to take up a thief or ninja type of role with more abilities to match. Again, such a job would be okay with more fragmented statistics because they'd literally be created with them in mind. Meanwhile, diminishing returns can be slapped on to prevent abuse from respecs, or simple loss of effectiveness when not being that ability's primary job. Specializations within the class itself could also lead to branching like a Red Mage becoming a Red Wizard (more magic-centric) or Mystic Knight (more melee) with proper growth.

Branched requirements also preempt some of the cookie cutter expectations I've seen people express in saying like they wouldn't want the newly changed mage with 100 STR when they could have the old one with 100 INT instead. Hybrid styles can still be achieved with some variance in stats, but they also wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as glass cannon builds. Frankly, I also feel SE needs to keep people from settling into the one-job-wonder aspect of some XI'ers I've seen, too. Leveling others helps to give understanding. Leveling others also encourages economic activity. Leveling others can give veterans reason to help lowbies in select situations. Leveling others helps keep some life in older content.
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#99 Apr 11 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this is how its gonna work:

Class lvls give stat points so everyone will be effective at their jobs when they switch weapons. Example:

Level 1 Gladiator: No stat growth
by Level 10 Gladiator, u get: +10 VIT, +300 HP
by Level 30 Gladiator, u get: +10str +10dex +50vit +2000HP
by Level 50 Gladiator, u get: .... you get the point.

So at a theoretical cap Lvl75 GLD, we would see every Gladiator with identical stats, effective enough to do their jobs.

Then comes Physical Level, a sort of "Merit System" for ppl to further customise their toons. Lets assume Physical Level could well also be capped at a theoretical lvl75, meaning to say u might have 75points to spend. Out of the 75points, lets say you can only spend 25points in Stats, 25points in HP/MP and 25points in Offensive/Defensive/Resist Stats. Stats upgrading could be similar to FFXI, with each same stat point getting increased being more expensive. So those more inclined to tank, would put their Physical Level points into VIT/HP/Defense/Resist, while those inclined to nuke/caster DPS can put their points in INT/MP/Mag. Att. Up. Respecs will be expensive/ on a timer so that people will not be able to abuse the system by changing their stats for every encounter. It would be more for ppl who would like to respec after playing tank for a long time and wishes to change his stats to a more DPS oriented build.

While changing to a "newbie job", ur physical lvl might be capped to ur class lvl.. so its back to killing rabbits/crabs/worms.

The Physical Level system makes up for the racial stat differences in FFXI. Instead of having Galka more HP, Elvaan more STR, Mithra more DEX, they defaulted it to a base build, and allowing us slightly more free rein to customize our characters while choosing to play the race because we liked it and not because of the stat advantage/disadvantages they had in FFXI.

My 2cents worth....
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#100 Apr 11 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Darrtt wrote:
so what im thinking in XIV is that your physical level will allow you to allocate your own stats but as your job level increases certain stats will automatically increase depending on what job you are leveling. when you change jobs your stats will change to what you have allocated via physical level and what the current level of the job you are playing is. thus you CAN play all the jobs effectively while also being able to be unique from everyone else.


I don't see anything wrong with this, and as slow as PL actually does seem to grow going back to beginning areas doesn't sound that restrictive. What if it is a 3:1 ratio like it seems, you get Gladiator to 30 and PL=10. Change to Archer Lv.1 your PL still at 10 sets max for distributing stats or abilities. I'm thinking stats won't be too much of a big deal early on anyway.

AureliusSir wrote:
Really, it's too early to be getting uncomfortable about this or disappointed by that. Let the information trickle in and unless everything you read has you convinced that it's going to be a horrible game, get involved with the open beta, go in with an open mind, and see if the changes improve on or detract from those things you enjoyed about XI.


I agree, I'm sure SE has come up with their own clever little system and have thought all these little worries of ours through. As for Alpha/Beta they want to work out the bugs and see the testers response. I'm sure whatever they got planned will work just fine. I mean this is SE were talking about here, they always try to keep things balanced. Even when we think we getting something sweet in updates, then there is huge difficulty behind it. We'll see when game is released and I'm sure this won't even be an issue. First giant update and emergency maintenances that seem to always follow a launch always happens I don't doubt that much.
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#101 Apr 11 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Well I see a lot of theories and ideas flying around, and I have to say I like some of these very much. However, the simple truth is none of us have enough information yet. I do think this is an important concern. This is a crucial concern particularly for multi-classers and hybrids. So here are the major concerns.

1. How important are the physical levels?

SE did day that class will be more important than physical level, but this could mean anything. Maybe they meant it as in abilities and spells are important in order to function. Then again, maybe they meant that abilities and spells will be effective no matter what, and phsical levels act as a bonus and not something that will make or break classes.

2. What kind of limitations will there be on stat distrubution?

SE said that there would be something in place to prevent people from just maxing out one thing such as str. I do not know what they meant by that, but I have seen three different ways in other MMORPGS that this can happen. As some one else mentioned, diminishing returns on stat distributions. Another way is forcing the player to raise all stats so many points for every X amount of points on a particular stat. Ex: For every 10 points you put into str, you have to raise all other stats by at least 1, before you can add any additional str. The last way would be by requiring certain stats for armor. Ex: Say you are a gladiator and want to wear some heavy plate armor. Lets also say that the most important stats for gladiator are HP, vit, def, and str. Then that heavy plate armor you have been drooling over requires a high amount of vit, but also for some odd reason a fair amount of charisma. I am not saying this is what SE will do. They may do 1 of them, they may do all of them, and they may do something else completely.

3. How often and at what cost will we be able to respec?

Now I have seen a lot of good ideas. However, if we simply read what SE said, it just says that you will be able to reasign stats. It says nothing of how much, how often, how simply, or what the penalty/cost will be? I do hope it will be easy, straight forward, and without penalty. However, this may not be the case, and I think people should take this into account before they start thinking about ideas of easy and simply changing in the field. Further more, while I do not know what SE will do, they have never made things that easy. I highly doubt you will have any ability to change physical levels stats on the fly, nor will there be presets, nor will there be dual specing. Again, I do not know that for certain, but I can not beleieve SE would make it that easy or be that cooperative. I think it will be an npc that you go to with some kind of penalty such as: high costs, or costs that increase each time you do it, or maybe no cost but a waiting period of like say once a week. Letting people min/max for each class, at any point they want is just not SEish. Its just not in their nature to do it. Maybe I am just being negative, but I seriously doubt it. They could even go the ichy direction with this: charge real money for the service. Lets hope this never happens!

Well that is what alpha/beta is for. Hopefully, SE listens to the testers and takes into account some of their opinions and concerns over the problem with physical levels and the potential problems it could create for multi-classers and hybrids.
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