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Physical Level = Cant Play All Classes Effectively?Follow

#102 Apr 11 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
look, based on the videos we have seen thus far its going to work like this.

How much HP/MP you have
1. Class you are currently playing ( this makes sure you have a base mp pool as a caster ect )


Didn't the galka Roegadyn Seawolf Pugilist in one of the screenshots have something like over 300 MP? I think you're mistaken about the impact of physical level. The difference in stats between a naked level 1 job and a naked level 75 job in FFXI was fairly substantial.


Yeah but your thinking about a game that has levels and basing your point off a pre alpha video where its been said to not pay attention to how much hp/mp each character has because its not final.

Also guys this game is not XP based. You gotta throw allot of your WoW and FFXI knowledge out the window. I have no clue how my time will be spent in game...

Frankly, if this game is ANYTHING like Ultima Online skill system ill most likely bake cookies and go fishing until I realize what I have been doing with my life....

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 2:14pm by thorazinekizzez
#103 Apr 11 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Also guys this game is not XP based. You gotta throw allot of your WoW and FFXI knowledge out the window. I have no clue how my time will be spent in game...


I'm sorry I kno SE said that they didn't want to make it based off of experience, but the screens show obviously 2 different types of exp when a mob is killed. "Alpha Tester gains 3 experience." And then "Alpha Tester gains 9 Thuamaturge experience." And again reaching Thaumaturge Rank 2. Also the other pic being what brought this thread up is Status screen. Obviously there are 2 bars, Hand-to-Hand Rank 1 and Physical Level 1. And by putting two together it looks to me like 3 exp goes into PL, and possibly 9 c.exp into weapon. Tho screens represnt 2 different classes this makes sense to me.

Why SE changed their mind idk, but alpha info that was released does show experience points being rewarded.
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#104 Apr 11 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone considered the possibility that if you switch from your main discipline to one you've never used before your Physical Level stats would cap off like weapon skills in XI?

So you'll still gain EXP as say a Gladiator but none towards your PL. That makes perfect sense to me.

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#105 Apr 11 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Default
Asyrian wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Also guys this game is not XP based. You gotta throw allot of your WoW and FFXI knowledge out the window. I have no clue how my time will be spent in game...


I'm sorry I kno SE said that they didn't want to make it based off of experience, but the screens show obviously 2 different types of exp when a mob is killed. "Alpha Tester gains 3 experience." And then "Alpha Tester gains 9 Thuamaturge experience." And again reaching Thaumaturge Rank 2. Also the other pic being what brought this thread up is Status screen. Obviously there are 2 bars, Hand-to-Hand Rank 1 and Physical Level 1. And by putting two together it looks to me like 3 exp goes into PL, and possibly 9 c.exp into weapon. Tho screens represnt 2 different classes this makes sense to me.

Why SE changed their mind idk, but alpha info that was released does show experience points being rewarded.


One of the more shrewd questions bouncing around here since the first details of the game were released would be around how you could determine whether or not Bob the Caster was of at an adequate level of progression to participate in a certain bit of content. SE has experimented with more freeform character progression models in the past with only limited success.

Way back when the official NA FFXIV site was launched, they added a section detailing a day in the life of an adventurer that probably does a better job of revealing what they're driving at than anything else they've said. The underlying theme of that whole section was that you're one character. You're not a class, you're not a level, you're a virtual character in a virtual world. To bring it to a more familiar context, when I'm at work (renovations), my job typically requires a certain amount of heavy lifting and manual dexterity. When I come home and sit down in front of the PC and turn into amateur PC performance enthusiast, I don't become physically weaker because the heaviest thing I have to move is a full coffee cup or a mouse. I'm still the same person with the same physical characteristics and the same mental capacity, but just because I know how to frame a building or fix a toilet doesn't mean I can overclock any CPU without reference. Conversely, I learned to touch type in highschool. Just because I had developed the manual dexterity to do that didn't mean that their was no effort involved in learning how to make a straight cut with a circular saw. The person is the same...the skillsets are at different levels of development.

What is creating the most confusion, it would seem, is that people are still trying to frame their understanding of what we've learned about FFXIV in comparison to other games. Why should your character become physically weaker when they switch from (example) a gladiator to a thaumaturge? Does that mean that Joe Gamer is going to cap out their gladiator and then progress their thaumaturge by running around bapping things with their staff? Maybe...but if progressing through ranks of thaumaturge hinges around using thaumaturge abilities, the melee mage isn't going to get very far, are they? By the same token, if you spend all day running around in heavy armor wielding a sword and a shield, why would switching to an axe or a polearm one day suddenly make you weaker and profoundly more clumsy? You'd have to learn the dynamics of the new weapon (skill) but you're not going to lose muscle (physical characteristics) for having changed weapons.

I see SE taking a more holistic approach to character progression in FFXIV and I think the option to reallocate stats is simply to prevent frustrated players who spend a lengthy amount of time (again, example only) leveling a melee damage class only to realize that they really want to be a healer but they've already spent their stat points on things that aren't going to help them in their new role. One of the things FFXI players speak so fondly of is the attachment they developed to their character and their preference for having one character capable of approaching the game from any job angle they wanted. I see SE trying to preserve that function and build on that success by taking an even broader view.
#106 Apr 15 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, you guys are probably thinking to much into this.

SE is likely only giving us 'stat allocation' to substitute the attributes differences like how they were in ffxi between the races.

Glaka had low INT/MP etc, but high STR/VIT, meaning that they were less effective mages than melee dps, due to a lower mana pool. Thus people likely felt that their race choice was guided by the job they would like to play. We all know this wasn't that extreme, as people could still play any job they wanted, but certain races were better for certain jobs, no question.

However, when our Galka friend reached level 2 Blm, he received stat increases that would help him as a Blm. When he switched to War and leveled, his stats were reset to what a base Galka War would receive, and as he leveled, he received stats that would benefit a War. Once hitting level cap, he could merit. When picking his Merits, he had to allocate them to his favorite class, and pick the stats that would benefit him the most.

For FFXIV, I believe this stat distribution will work the same way as a merits, except you get them from level 1 (some other people alluded to this already).

Each class has the same starting stats, that does not differ by race. When someone levels up a Gladiator to level 2 (class level) they receive +2 STR, +2VIT, +1DEX and +3HP regardless of race (you do not pick these stats, rather they are predetermined by leveling up). These stats will always stay with this class whenever you switch to it. Meaning, say you are a level 10 Gladiator, and have accumulated +20STR, +22VIT, +5DEX and +45HP throughout your 10 GLD levels. If you switch to an Archer, you will lose the stats given to you from your GLD class levels, and return to the base starting stats for the archer class. When you switch back to the Gladiator class, you will get back the +20STR, +22VIT, +5DEX and +45HP stats you gained over your 10 GLD levels.

Now, because you also gain physical level exp, say (for example) when you reach level 2 Phy. Lv. you gain 1 stat attribute point that you can freely assign to any stat. Think of this as a merit point. You must put it in the stat which you feel will give you the greatest benefit. I believe this stat point allocation will not change when you switch classes, so you will need to assign it based on which class you enjoy playing the most (your 'main'), or go for a hybrid approach. Now say the physical level cap is 50, and you get 1 point per physical level = 50 points total.

These points allow for some uniqueness between players, but would not completely hinder players from leveling a different job. Also, there could be a cap on these additional stats based on class level when leveling a new job, so you are not given them all at level class level 1 Archer for example. Also, I would assume that your Physical level only increases when killing mobs around your physical level.

This system solves a few problems discussed in this thread.

1 - Low level content will still be needed when you level a new job. A Phy. Lv. 1, GLD Lv. 1 would fight the same content a Phy. Lv. 20, Archer Lv. 1 would fight.

2 - People would not need to constantly reassign attribute points when switching classes

3 - Players could specialize their bonus stat points (merit points) in one class, regardless of what they are leveling, or could allocate them across two classes without completely gimping either class as 50 point (in this example) would not substantially hurt a class when gaining 3-5 attribute points per level in important stats.

4 - Players who have leveled other jobs and are going back to old content have a stat advantage (albeit minor) over people leveling their first job, due to their bonus stat allocation

Sorry for the wall of txt =S


Edited, Apr 15th 2010 12:19pm by Sharwyn
#107 Apr 15 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Default
Sharwyn wrote:
Honestly, you guys are probably thinking to much into this.

SE is likely only giving us 'stat allocation' to substitute the attributes differences like how they were in ffxi between the races.


My guess is that you're assuming that you're going to get stat increases as your class rank goes up. From what we've been told, that won't be the case. Unfortunately, at this point the most detailed information we have is from alpha leaks which means we can't really discuss it here.
#108 Apr 15 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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What is the difference between the stats in the parenthesis?

Example:
16 -> (17) Cost 2
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#109 Apr 15 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
LPast wrote:
What is the difference between the stats in the parenthesis?

Example:
16 -> (17) Cost 2


I'm guessing that it's telling you what your current stat is, what it will go to if you spend the points, and how many points you have to spend to get it there.
#110 Apr 15 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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If it's anything like merit points, considering how hard it was for me to decide where to put my points since I enjoyed playing both caster and melee roles, those decisions will be one times Max Level harder for me in FFXIV. I know they've stated that re-specs will be available, but I really doubt they will end up free or without restriction. That would render the whole system meaningless. Even if, in the best case scenario for my play style, a re-spec only requires a trip to town, re-allocating multiple levels of stats one by one would be extremely tedious.

This new system really appears to serve best those who intend to stick to a specific primary role, and would be restrictive to the freestyle armory system they describe on the official website. I'm really concerned with how they intend to implement this into the final game.
#111 Apr 15 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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There is an easy solution, that may have been suggested earlier ( I haven't read all of the pages!).

Simply put, allow armor/weapons to be the true form of character growth. With this in mind, one could be maxed out on physical levels, but not have a huge boost when switching to a low level character.

For instance: I am a lvl 75 Glad, physical rank 75. Those 75 ranks of physical level have only raised my HP from the base 209, to say, 250. An equivalent, minimalistic boost is seen across the board to all stats.

So, you say, this makes no sense, we now have horrendously overpowered low levels, or underpowered high levels.

Well, if this game has a true armor focus that may not be true. If say, you need to have a certain 'class' level to equip armor, and it is the armor that provides the true bonuses of being a high level, we have an easy way out. ie: my 75 Glad, pops on his solid breat plate of greatness, with +800HP, +75 Vit etc etc. When I switch to a lvl 1 Marauder, I of course, can't equip said breat plate and am back wearing lvl 1 cloth armor with no boosts.

In short, this system of holistic character growth is very easy to account for, if all the importance is put on armor, rather than simply character stats. Additionally, this makes a bit of sense on a realism level, in that (as was mentioned previously), when switching jobs I'm not forgetting or losing out on all that previous character growth.
#112 Apr 15 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Ridinger wrote:
There is an easy solution, that may have been suggested earlier ( I haven't read all of the pages!).

Simply put, allow armor/weapons to be the true form of character growth. With this in mind, one could be maxed out on physical levels, but not have a huge boost when switching to a low level character.

For instance: I am a lvl 75 Glad, physical rank 75. Those 75 ranks of physical level have only raised my HP from the base 209, to say, 250. An equivalent, minimalistic boost is seen across the board to all stats.

So, you say, this makes no sense, we now have horrendously overpowered low levels, or underpowered high levels.

Well, if this game has a true armor focus that may not be true. If say, you need to have a certain 'class' level to equip armor, and it is the armor that provides the true bonuses of being a high level, we have an easy way out. ie: my 75 Glad, pops on his solid breat plate of greatness, with +800HP, +75 Vit etc etc. When I switch to a lvl 1 Marauder, I of course, can't equip said breat plate and am back wearing lvl 1 cloth armor with no boosts.

In short, this system of holistic character growth is very easy to account for, if all the importance is put on armor, rather than simply character stats. Additionally, this makes a bit of sense on a realism level, in that (as was mentioned previously), when switching jobs I'm not forgetting or losing out on all that previous character growth.


As long as this does not go down the long dark road of an equipment grind (ah la run dungeon "X" 100s for an outside chance at getting two pieces of uber gear) and stays true to a lot of how FFXI handled equipment, then I'm fine with that and even makes a lot of sense.
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#113 Apr 15 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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That's the beauty of an equipment first model. It is clearly extremely fluid. SE could adjust the game at will, buy adding in armour alone. Even better, it allows the players to grow however they want. Do you want to be a DD Glad? Throw on your 'hauberk'. A Tank Glad? throw on your ... heavy plate, massive defensive stats armor. It's easy to re-spec yourself on the fly in addition to being simplistic.

There would no longer need to be massive job updates, they could fine tune the play of roles (with an enhancement bat, rather than the nerf bat of 03-06 FFXI).

Imagine, new 'blink' tank A comes in, and takes over all tanking roles from Glads. SE throws in a new line of armour as a slight patch which is able to add enough physcial bonuses to make the merit of blood tanks worth while again. Of course, adjustments like this could be done on a FFXI system as well. However, in a system solely gear oriented for character growth, it is very easy to fine tune the game however the developers see fit.

#114 Apr 16 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Ridinger wrote:
That's the beauty of an equipment first model. It is clearly extremely fluid. SE could adjust the game at will, buy adding in armour alone. Even better, it allows the players to grow however they want. Do you want to be a DD Glad? Throw on your 'hauberk'. A Tank Glad? throw on your ... heavy plate, massive defensive stats armor. It's easy to re-spec yourself on the fly in addition to being simplistic.

There would no longer need to be massive job updates, they could fine tune the play of roles (with an enhancement bat, rather than the nerf bat of 03-06 FFXI).

Imagine, new 'blink' tank A comes in, and takes over all tanking roles from Glads. SE throws in a new line of armour as a slight patch which is able to add enough physcial bonuses to make the merit of blood tanks worth while again. Of course, adjustments like this could be done on a FFXI system as well. However, in a system solely gear oriented for character growth, it is very easy to fine tune the game however the developers see fit.



That is a very good point!
Although we already know that this game will allow us to learn abilities and create talent builds in the same way a blue mage works in FFXI. IE you level a class to learn an ability then it goes into a large pool of choices for all of your classes to use in different ways.

However I think on a design standpoint your standing on some solid ground here. Your gear can be swapped outside of combat and you can change your role on the fly. If you can make gaining armor fun and interesting with various methods of play you can have a really free form experience.

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 8:18pm by thorazinekizzez
#115 Apr 16 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
LPast wrote:
What is the difference between the stats in the parenthesis?

Example:
16 -> (17) Cost 2


I'm guessing that it's telling you what your current stat is, what it will go to if you spend the points, and how many points you have to spend to get it there.


More inclined to believe it a modified value of that stat based on gear, food, or whatever.
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#116 Apr 16 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
LPast wrote:
What is the difference between the stats in the parenthesis?

Example:
16 -> (17) Cost 2


I'm guessing that it's telling you what your current stat is, what it will go to if you spend the points, and how many points you have to spend to get it there.


More inclined to believe it a modified value of that stat based on gear, food, or whatever.


That could be it as well. I've seen a couple of screenshots that look like people have eaten some type of food or received some type of buff that has given them a stat increase in various places. My sense is that that part of the UI is due for some tweaking before live. I haven't exactly been scouring the web for other screenshots, but the ones I recall seeing have had all of the stats showing that base 16 across the board with the modifies in brackets showing this or that.
#117 Apr 17 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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yea id deff say Dynamis was the biggest gil sink, was 1mil gil for years and a few done a day....whole **** of alot of gil
#118 Apr 17 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Had it right the first time.
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#119 Apr 17 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I really can't see all stat points being re-allocated at will. One of the cool things about MMO's is that everyone is different and everyone plays different. The stat differences between races was kind of neat in FFXI.

If all races have the same starting stats, and reallocation of points is done at will, there will eventually be a 'best' way for your character to be built and every person playing every class will be EXACTLY the same, and it will be demanded of them to be allocated a certain way.

Party Leader: "Wanna 'merit'?"
Player1: "Sure"
Party Leader: "Are your Marauder stats STR 99, DEX 80, AGI 75?"
Player1: "Actually, I'm STR 99, DEX 79, AGI 76"
Party Leader: "Reallocate or gtfo"
Player1: "OK I just reallocated"
Party Leader: "Awesome, this is so easy!"



And if every player has the ability to be proficient at every job, it will cutdown on player interaction with other players. A guild of 10 people levelled to max will just do skillups on all the weapons once they reach max physical level, and they can all just play any job. If they need a whm, no need to go out and look for one, Guild member 2 switches to holy mace and reallocates points to predetermined 'best way' and is suddenly the best whm in the land.


I like Aurelius' argument that just because you change professions, you shouldn't suddenly become weaker... but that's the nature of MMO's. Re-enjoying previous content as a noob once again to level up a new job/class is needed, otherwise after a few weeks/months... there's nobody in the starter zones anymore. Every MMO I can think of has this, if you change jobs, you're a noob again and you need to re-skill up. Most MMO's you even need to change characters to level a new job (WoW, Aion). Although I liked keeping the same character to level up new jobs the way FFXI did it, it would have been pretty lame that after I reached level 75 on WHM, I could have switched to Dragoon for instance and be rediculously over-powered as a level 1 Dragoon, and all the challenge of trying something new is removed. Physical Level/Merit caps for low levels similar to the way FFXI did it would probably work.

I think the way it will work will be similar to what a few others have said. You can swap weapons which will in effect change your stats automatically to a predetermined base level for that class, much the way FFXI did it. But the bonus points you gain from gaining physical levels can't be redistributed. But you will be able to 'undo them' much the way merits worked, and you'll have to regain the exp needed to earn them again.
So it's like getting merit points at the start of the game.

And does it really make sense that I could reach max physical level by playing the entire time as a Lancer, then just switch to a wand and all of a sudden I'm a max physical level Conjurer? I mean sure I probably won't have any conjurer skills, but skilling up was quick in FFXI once you knew how to do it, unless it's drastically more difficult and time consuming in FFXIV the system itself doesn't make a lot of sense, so I think we're missing something.

Editted for spelling =)

Edited, Apr 17th 2010 4:45am by ShonaSeraph
#120 Apr 17 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Default
ShonaSeraph wrote:
Party Leader: "Wanna 'merit'?"
Player1: "Sure"
Party Leader: "Are your Marauder stats STR 99, DEX 80, AGI 75?"
Player1: "Actually, I'm STR 99, DEX 79, AGI 76"
Party Leader: "Reallocate or gtfo"
Player1: "OK I just reallocated"
Party Leader: "Awesome, this is so easy!"


I'm sure you'll get the occasional uberdork who will approach things from that angle. They'll be the extreme minority, however.

Quote:
And if every player has the ability to be proficient at every job, it will cutdown on player interaction with other players. A guild of 10 people levelled to max will just do skillups on all the weapons once they reach max physical level, and they can all just play any job. If they need a whm, no need to go out and look for one, Guild member 2 switches to holy mace and reallocates points to predetermined 'best way' and is suddenly the best whm in the land.


How is that any different from being able to level every job in a game on one character and then switch at will at their mog house? Racial differences in stats were largely trivial at the level cap in FFXI.

Quote:
I think the way it will work will be similar to what a few others have said. You can swap weapons which will in effect change your stats automatically to a predetermined base level for that class, much the way FFXI did it. But the bonus points you gain from gaining physical levels can't be redistributed. But you will be able to 'undo them' much the way merits worked, and you'll have to regain the exp needed to earn them again.
So it's like getting merit points at the start of the game.


I think you're mistaken. You're still thinking of class rank as being synonymous with physical level. You're not going to lose your stat points when you switch classes and have to re-earn them. If that were the case, people would level multiple characters instead of focusing on one.

Quote:
And does it really make sense that I could reach max physical level by playing the entire time as a Lancer, then just switch to a wand and all of a sudden I'm a max physical level Conjurer?


Yes, it does. Physical level =/= class rank. Physical level represents the physical characteristics of your character that don't change because you swap between a shovel and a paring knife. Class rank represents the skills your character has learned that indicate that just because you might be able to dig a ditch like a champion doesn't mean you're going to be able to go all Chef Sakai on a daikon.

Quote:
I mean sure I probably won't have any conjurer skills, but skilling up was quick in FFXI once you knew how to do it, unless it's drastically more difficult and time consuming in FFXIV the system itself doesn't make a lot of sense, so I think we're missing something.


If you look at it from the angle of what we were originally told...no levels and no xp...then it's iffy. If you look at it from what we've seen recently...separate xp for physical levels and class ranks, it makes total sense. You'll still have to "level" each class you want to play like any other. The difference after your first class, however, is that you'll be leveling for skills and abilities, not stat increases. SE may decide to scale things down using physical level as the base and class rank as the scalar, but remember that this game has been stated from the beginning to address the "too much time" aspect of FFXI. Slightly expediting the progression process for classes after your first is one way to do that.


Edited, Apr 17th 2010 9:52am by AureliusSir
#121 Apr 17 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think your stats would reset or change when you switch weapons/cless.

From what I read, I gathered it would work more like this :
(all this is hypothetical)

Lets say all spells have a high modification percentage from certain stats

tanks for example, could use 2-3 stats to modify what they need.
vitality/stamina would modify the HP, agility could modify there evasivness, strength could modify whatever taunting abilities they have to keep mobs on them.

now if they change weapons to, say, a healer, who's modifying stats are say wisdom and/or charisma to modify heals.

melee would need, for example, strength to modify how hard they can hit on top end, and dexterity to modify how strong the low end of there damage is.

casters would use perhaps inteligence/mind and dexterity to modify there abilities.

(again all of this is just hypothetical stat requirements for the purpose of my point)

now if the modifier percentage is high then where you have points allocated would highly effect how you can play one class over the other. If you start out tanking, the str is already there (assuming you added to it to modify taunting abilities) which would relate okay if you went to melee classes. But it wouldn't relate very well to swap to a caster or healer type weapon.

It seems to me that would be the draw back , or way of having a weaker effect to swap classes.
granted for some players and there styles, they would focus on different conbinations of points to stats or what not, depending on how they would want to play there characters, some may want great diversity and add equal points to many stats. Some may want to focus on melle/tank stats, others may want caster/healer stats to be a caster dd with heals. or any combination of 2 or 3 or however they want to play it.

Thats how i specualate that SE "might" take it, to limit how you can or cannot have strength in once class in comparison to another.



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#122 Apr 17 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think you're mistaken. You're still thinking of class rank as being synonymous with physical level. You're not going to lose your stat points when you switch classes and have to re-earn them. If that were the case, people would level multiple characters instead of focusing on one.


But that was the case in FFXI. If you meritted INT for Blm, you could still go and play Samurai, but you wouldn't have the STR merits unless you re-earned them. And I think that's fair.

If someone wants to play the whole game as a Thaumaturge and INT is the best modifier for them, I don't think it's fair or plausible that someone who played the whole time as a Lancer can just swap to thaumaturge, re-allocate all their STR stats to INT in 3 seconds and be the same as the Thaumaturge who just played it for however many levels. There wouldn't be any player diversity, everyone would have the same stats if that's the case depending on class.
The same would apply to elemental points.
Just changing your elemental affinity at will to reallocate to a certain monster weakness is too easy. 3-second swap to +Ice element when fighting crabs. Another 3-second swap to +Wind when fighting Kirin. Again, no player diversity, everyone will just have the same elemental attributes and same stats depending on the pre-determined best stat allocation when fighting any given mob.
#123 Apr 17 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand why this game has to be so easy to the point where that if any difficulty whatsoever is implemented, it'll somehow ruin the game because most people want everything on a silver platter. Life isn't like that, why should all games be like that? I plan to spend a rediculous amount of time in Eorzea and I want to be rewarded for my efforts. I don't want an 8 year old kid who plays 30 minutes a day to be as good as me because they want to make the game accessible to the WoW crowd, or for people with ADD.
I realized MMO's have changed for the worse, but let's not go overboard and take all challenge out of achieving things. You can categorize challenge however you want, whether it be time or skill, either way, everything shouldn't be achievable with minimal effort. People play for achievements, phat lootz, challenge, and fun. Loot isn't so phat when everyone has it. Call it elitism or whatever you want, but it has to exist. If there's no challenge, it's not that interesting. People who play for fun will do so regardless of how anything works.
There has to be something to work towards to keep it interesting. I call recall countless people who went for epics in FFXI, and once they got it, they played for a short time, and quit the game. There have to be things in the game to keep you playing, like the giant carrot.
It's similar to a real life job. People have them so they can put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and hopefully after 30-40 years, they can retire and do things they really enjoy. If there was no 'retirement' and you just had to keep working till you dropped dead, nobody would do it. Everyone would probably jump off a bridge and stop playing life. So not having that giant unachievable carrot at the end of FFXIV will hurt it. That carrot will be only achievable for a small fraction of players, but it's there for hope for the masses that think 'maybe' someday they can get it.

#124 Apr 17 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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I think your not considering the middle-ground solution.

Changing stats on-the-fly - this restriction is too soft
Changing stats by re-grinding physical levels - this restriction is too hard
Walk to a friendly NPC located in your local major city and pay a fine - j~u~s~t right.



I agree with your second post, but only so much.

By using epics as your examples of a carrot that's 'tangible', it sounds like your assuming the carrot may only be something that has a direct relation to your efficiency as a player in combat scenarios. The carrot can be any number of things, trophies, titles, access to special areas, fluff items. And interestingly, the prestige attached to a fluff item is comparable to a combat item in games that use them.

Furthermore, I should hope XIV is sort of game that rewards skill and knowledge, so that by spending more time in the game you'll have learned more and be a better player as a result. But the time spent inside the game itself draws no direct correlation to how 'good' a player you are. If the child spent time looking up information and you spent time running around in circles, he should rightly kick your ***. If the child is some kind of programming savant that can reverse engineer the battle system in his head, he should also kick your ***.

That's what a game based on player skill means, that we as individuals are responsible for our failures as well as our successes. The more the game intervenes on your behalf, the less you matter.

Edited, Apr 17th 2010 5:04pm by Zemzelette
#125 Apr 17 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
ShonaSeraph wrote:
Quote:
I think you're mistaken. You're still thinking of class rank as being synonymous with physical level. You're not going to lose your stat points when you switch classes and have to re-earn them. If that were the case, people would level multiple characters instead of focusing on one.


But that was the case in FFXI. If you meritted INT for Blm, you could still go and play Samurai, but you wouldn't have the STR merits unless you re-earned them. And I think that's fair.

If someone wants to play the whole game as a Thaumaturge and INT is the best modifier for them, I don't think it's fair or plausible that someone who played the whole time as a Lancer can just swap to thaumaturge, re-allocate all their STR stats to INT in 3 seconds and be the same as the Thaumaturge who just played it for however many levels. There wouldn't be any player diversity, everyone would have the same stats if that's the case depending on class.
The same would apply to elemental points.
Just changing your elemental affinity at will to reallocate to a certain monster weakness is too easy. 3-second swap to +Ice element when fighting crabs. Another 3-second swap to +Wind when fighting Kirin. Again, no player diversity, everyone will just have the same elemental attributes and same stats depending on the pre-determined best stat allocation when fighting any given mob.


Okay, so you've got this idea that you should lose your stat points and have to re-earn them if you switch to another job. SE has an idea that you should be able to reallocate your stat points. I wonder which idea will make it into the game...
#126 Apr 17 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Default
ShonaSeraph wrote:
I don't understand why this game has to be so easy to the point where that if any difficulty whatsoever is implemented, it'll somehow ruin the game because most people want everything on a silver platter. Life isn't like that, why should all games be like that? I plan to spend a rediculous amount of time in Eorzea and I want to be rewarded for my efforts. I don't want an 8 year old kid who plays 30 minutes a day to be as good as me because they want to make the game accessible to the WoW crowd, or for people with ADD.
I realized MMO's have changed for the worse, but let's not go overboard and take all challenge out of achieving things. You can categorize challenge however you want, whether it be time or skill, either way, everything shouldn't be achievable with minimal effort. People play for achievements, phat lootz, challenge, and fun. Loot isn't so phat when everyone has it. Call it elitism or whatever you want, but it has to exist. If there's no challenge, it's not that interesting. People who play for fun will do so regardless of how anything works.
There has to be something to work towards to keep it interesting. I call recall countless people who went for epics in FFXI, and once they got it, they played for a short time, and quit the game. There have to be things in the game to keep you playing, like the giant carrot.
It's similar to a real life job. People have them so they can put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and hopefully after 30-40 years, they can retire and do things they really enjoy. If there was no 'retirement' and you just had to keep working till you dropped dead, nobody would do it. Everyone would probably jump off a bridge and stop playing life. So not having that giant unachievable carrot at the end of FFXIV will hurt it. That carrot will be only achievable for a small fraction of players, but it's there for hope for the masses that think 'maybe' someday they can get it.



Welcome to 2010. Please leave your dated concepts of "challenge" at the door.

If you've got the kind of time that allows you to relevel everything whenever you want to switch things up..umm...congratulations? Not everyone does. Not everyone is interested in that kind of hardcore gaming experience. Challenge is ideally found in the fights and encounters you find in the game, not the generic task of progressing your character. Let's not **** around with definitions...you're asking for time sinks, not challenges. You're asking for a game that rewards you for having an abundance of free times to grind away on repetitive content for the sake of hard-won e-peen enhancement. In short, you're asking for an MMO concept that was proven to be a business model failure about 5 years ago. Get with the times.
#127 Apr 17 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph mentions MMOs having taken a change for the worse. I for one have to disagree. I played FFXI years ago. I played WOW for a while when it first came out (hated it, IMO it felt very dumbed down for an MMO), played EQOA (PS2 only MMO),played EQII, and 5-8 others, and I don't think they have changed for the worse. FFXIV isn't even released yet, so I would like to think that it defenently will have been formed for the better, liking to assume SE will have something to add from there previous experience, and those of other MMO making companies.

I don't want to see free respecs, or even ones easily aquired thru a fine or purchase. I would possibly go for it being achievable through a repeatable quest, but it needs to be something that in some way would limit its avaliability. Keep in mind though, that I am completely for having it avaliable though. What i would prefere not to see, is the avaliability to respec/rehab/reallocate what ever you wish to call it, avaliable on a daily, or even weekly basis.

One thing I would like, is for SE to release basic information with the instruction booklet upon game release that clearly specifies what type of spells/abilities each stat modifies and by how much so the new MMO players in particular, know or at least have some idea of how to allocate points as they progress, lowering the need/want to reallocate points. I admitt that I would love to see players capable of having alot of leway and diversity in there builds, but I would prefere not having everyone capable of chanching it on a whim.

On a different note, I notice I have found information on the basic healing, tanking, caster and melee damage, but I am more curious to hear more about some of the buff/support type spells that go along with the different classes.
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#128 Apr 17 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
coglins wrote:
ShonaSeraph mentions MMOs having taken a change for the worse. I for one have to disagree. I played FFXI years ago. I played WOW for a while when it first came out (hated it, IMO it felt very dumbed down for an MMO), played EQOA (PS2 only MMO),played EQII, and 5-8 others, and I don't think they have changed for the worse. FFXIV isn't even released yet, so I would like to think that it defenently will have been formed for the better, liking to assume SE will have something to add from there previous experience, and those of other MMO making companies.

I don't want to see free respecs, or even ones easily aquired thru a fine or purchase. I would possibly go for it being achievable through a repeatable quest, but it needs to be something that in some way would limit its avaliability. Keep in mind though, that I am completely for having it avaliable though. What i would prefere not to see, is the avaliability to respec/rehab/reallocate what ever you wish to call it, avaliable on a daily, or even weekly basis.

One thing I would like, is for SE to release basic information with the instruction booklet upon game release that clearly specifies what type of spells/abilities each stat modifies and by how much so the new MMO players in particular, know or at least have some idea of how to allocate points as they progress, lowering the need/want to reallocate points. I admitt that I would love to see players capable of having alot of leway and diversity in there builds, but I would prefere not having everyone capable of chanching it on a whim.

On a different note, I notice I have found information on the basic healing, tanking, caster and melee damage, but I am more curious to hear more about some of the buff/support type spells that go along with the different classes.


Is there going to be a point with these forums where people stop ignoring what SE has said in favor of their own brilliant ideas of how things "should" be done? Maybe? Please?
#129 Apr 17 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only AureliusSir, are you the opinion **** ? we are simply discussing ideas as the potential player base that we are.if you have an opinion on an idea, or an idea of your own, feel free to ad something. To criticize us for discussing something different then how SE has it set now, (which at this point isn't even formally released) seems counter productive.

As well as the fact that as the player base, most game developers do prefere player discussion and feedback for ideas of positive changes.
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#130 Apr 17 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
coglins wrote:
The One and Only AureliusSir, are you the opinion **** ? we are simply discussing ideas as the potential player base that we are.if you have an opinion on an idea, or an idea of your own, feel free to ad something. To criticize us for discussing something different then how SE has it set now, (which at this point isn't even formally released) seems counter productive.

As well as the fact that as the player base, most game developers do prefere player discussion and feedback for ideas of positive changes.


Ya, I'm the opinion ****. Do you honestly pause to consider the implication of your ideas before you barf them out all over the place? I don't think you do. I don't think you could have spent more than the time it took to type out that last pile of nonsense or you would have stopped to consider why SE would make changing classes even more restrictive in XIV than it was in XI. "Ya guys, I'd love to tank that for you but I just switched to my melee damage build yesterday and I've got 5 days before I can do the repeatable quest that will let me change back to tanking again. Sorry 'bout that. Ya, ya, I know it's stupid. In FFXI I'd just have to go to my mog house and change jobs/gear and we'd be squared away, but I guess SE was eating ****** sammiches again when they decided to take their 'do what you want' concept and shat all over it for the sake of the dwindling hardcore MMO population. I know you've been looking for a tank for four hours. How was I suppose to know yesterday when you told me you had no room in your group unless I went to fill a damage role that you were going to need me to tank again today? It's not my fault that SE listened to people who have no clue when they were retuning the beta."

I have no problem with opinions. I take issue with opinions that received little/no thought before they were formed, and as a discussion forum, it's entirely within my rights to challenge those opinions so buck up or shut up, mmmkay?
#131 Apr 17 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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Why all the insults in your replies ?

Sure i think about my post, its my opinion, plain and simple. I do not ridicul your ideas my friend.

Anyway, if said player wanted to "tank for us" as you put it, why would he switch to melee ? Simply because we had a tank already "the day before" as you put it. Are you implying there will only be one group avaliable in the entirety of the game ?

You call it a "do as you want concept", and thats fine. That would imply that you build your character how you like, a mix and match of abilities if you chose. I have yet to se SE say the ability to change your stats freely and as often as you like as there plan. If it is, I will disagre with it reguardless how many insults you hurl. If you desire to be a tank, build a tank, if you desire to build a melee DD then do so. Use the games diversability of build to expand on that basis of build. By no means do I wish to see every player change there character from one complete build concept to another freely, and with no consequence, on a minute to minute, or hour to hour basis. Insult me, and twist my point, thoughts, and words all you like, but it does not make me right or wrong, it just makes me a man with an opinion. If you chose to hate my opinion, or simply disagree, then do so. But please, good sir, stop insulting me for it, as it damages the general publics ability to respect your opinion as well.

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Edited, Apr 17th 2010 8:16pm by coglins
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#132 Apr 17 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Default
coglins wrote:
Why all the insults in your replies ?


Cry less, think more.

Quote:
Anyway, if said player wanted to "tank for us" as you put it, why would he switch to melee ? Simply because we had a tank already "the day before" as you put it. Are you implying there will only be one group avaliable in the entirety of the game ?


You've never had friends in an MMO? You've never been part of an endgame group? ****, have you even played FFXI? What part about the benefits of versatility are you not grasping that you'd be so eager to suggest severely restricting that diversity? When SE puts so much emphasis on being able to change jobs on the fly anywhere you want, how does it make sense to you in any way, shape, or form that pigeonholing players based on stats is a good idea. "Teehee...I'm Tanaka. You can change jobs anywhere you want, but if you're changing between disciplines you're gonna suck! AAAAAAHAHAHAHA!! Take THAT summoner ********* Whine at me some more!!"

Quote:
You call it a "do as you want concept", and thats fine.


Actually, it's SE that has said that want FFXIV to be more about, "do what you want."

Quote:
That would imply that you build your character how you like, a mix and match of abilities if you chose.


No, it would imply that you have the freedom to take advantage of the full scope of the class system just like FFXI allowed you to take advantage of the full scope of the job system. You're trying to re-invent one of the few wheels on the enormous machine of FFXI that wasn't actually broken.

Quote:
I have yet to se SE say the ability to change your stats freely and as often as you like as there plan.


I would expect to see it involve something like a trip to an NPC in a hub of some sorts. But repeatable quests? Multiple day cooldowns? You're simply not thinking. Again...opinion, good. Opinion built on mental diarrhea, not good. You want tanks and healers in FFXIV so you can actually get groups going in a timely fashion? Don't force them to be tanks and healers all the time or a lot of them are going to say, ********** it" and stay damage for solo and farming.

Quote:
If it is, I will disagre with it reguardless how many insults you hurl.


That's great...so I guess that means you won't be playing FFXIV. Sorry 'bout that. That's why I was inquiring as to whether or not you yokels are going to simmer down and start paying attention to what SE is saying and base your ideas and opinions around that instead of yoinking them out of left field and holding them up like they're something to be proud of. This isn't the "speculate about MMOs in general" forum...this is the FFXIV forum and if you're not happy with what SE has announced for the game, ****** off. Read. Pay attention. Learn. Show the intellectual maturity to gather information and build your "opinions" around sense and reason, not "O HAI THAT SOUNDZ TEH NEET!!!!1"

Quote:
If you desire to be a tank, build a tank, if you desire to build a melee DD then do so.


No, actually I desire to tank for groups and have a more damage focused build for solo and farming. Not sure where you got that idea that SE would have it any other way what with everything they've told us since ohhhh...JUNE OF LAST YEAR, but whatever.

Quote:
Use the games diversability


<.<

>.>

Quote:
of build to expand on that basis of build. By no means do I wish to see every player change there character from one complete build concept to another freely, and with no consequence, on a minute to minute, or hour to hour basis. Insult me, and twist my point, thoughts, and words all you like, but it does not make me right or wrong, it just makes me a man with an opinion.


By no means would I like to see people putting green relish in their tuna salad, but when I'm in a forum dedicated to discussing sandwiches, I'll bring it up. We're here to discuss FFXIV. Get with the program. We're too far into the process now for people to be ignoring/arguing against the FUNDAMENTAL CONCEPTS OF THE GAME that were made known to us ALMOST A YEAR AGO. At this point, arguing like your 'opinion' serves any purpose beyond making you look uninformed is like arguing about it after the game goes live. It's not going to change. It's a central concept of the game. Get used to it or get lost.

I had myself convinced for years and years that SE didn't care, didn't listen, didn't know wtf they were doing. Look at all of these people giving you feedback SE, how can you remain so clueless?

And the longer I observe, the longer I spend comparing what I thought I know as an FFXI player compared to what I've learned since then, the more I realize the the community is as much to blame as SE. SE offers inches...players scream for miles. SE is a very moderate company in its policies towards MMO management. The playerbase are a bunch of pie in the sky dreamers that, if that's all it was, would be fine. But then they take this stream of vitriolic dunce spew and aim it at SE and then stand back and wonder why nobody takes them seriously.

Uhh...cuz they're stupid. No clue, no concept, and you're **** straight I'm going to poke a little fun at people who seem to forget that an idea on its own has no value or merit and if you can't form a cogent idea that's both reasonable and makes sense in context like any semi-intelligent grown up, you might as well get used to having people bug you for it.
#133 Apr 17 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can you tone down the cranky old **** tone, Aurelius? Just a little, for me?
#134The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: Apr 17 2010 at 9:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Prolly not. I've been posting like this for years now and it usually takes something pretty ridiculous to peak my ire. If people want to complain in general about SE not listening and then turn around and think they're going to turn these boards into the FFXIV equivalent of the FFXI suggestion boards, they're likely to encounter a certain amount of resistance. All I ask is that they think their ideas through and when they start putting forward ideas to restrict or penalize other players to suit their own masochistic entertainment urges, it irks me. Especially when there's no quantifiable reason for it. "I think there should be severe limits on the ability to do this." "Why?" "Because. Stuff. And things that don't matter. Also, you're mean."
#135 Apr 17 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Once in a while something crosses the line. That one did. "Hey, let's break a game before it's even live...that'd be SWELL!"


A couple posts on a message board don't pose any threat to the game's make-up. Pikko's right, man...you need to cool your jets a little bit.

Now that's not to say that I don't agree with you, though; it stands to reason that SE isn't going to make it so that leveling one job is completely equivalent to leveling all jobs. Skill points and abilities, in theory, will account for the difference in capability that they're seeking. So in the end, it wouldn't be that different from FFXI, where you can jump from job to job effectively only after you've put some time into both.

That's the confusion, right? And the reason why people are suggesting penalties to re-attributing points? I don't think it's anything to worry about, folks. SE would have to be pretty short-sighted to mess this one up.
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#136 Apr 17 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Default
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Would be kind of cool to only be able to play as one type of jobs making it where SE has to make every job usable for all events mainly they would lack the excuse of "well you should level up a job that is useful." Also in a lot of mmorpg you person can only be one class over all ff11 was odd in that you could switch jobs not sure if there were other games like this. Though if they do it this way then i do not think they should charges for each add person you have.
#137 Apr 17 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Default
Eske wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Once in a while something crosses the line. That one did. "Hey, let's break a game before it's even live...that'd be SWELL!"


A couple posts on a message board don't pose any threat to the game's make-up. Pikko's right, man...you need to cool your jets a little bit.


You're right, a couple of posts here and there aren't likely to sway SE's development plans. Going forward, however, I'd like to see a little less of the FFXI community mindset present here. It's been a 10 month uphill slog just to get people to stop labeling anything different from FFXI for the sake of playability as a desire to see simply a "WoW clone". It's just an awful **** shame that's it's taken this long for people to start to grasp what SE told is in the very first press conference last June. And I would imagine that the only reason they're a little more reticent to lob out the "WoW clone" accusation is because there's an alpha underway along with substantially more information from SE to go along with it.

Do you remember the thread about hearthstones? And how it didn't matter how much a quick trip home could enhance the game from a playability standpoint because it would encourage people to "mindlessly" explore? And now we're looking at preliminary screenshots with a scrolling menu that includes not only a quick trip home, but a quick trip out into the field to any Aetheryte you've visited before. (Yup, it could change. They could add a fee, a debuff/cooldown, or remove them altogether, but the fact that they're there says a lot about SE's approach to the general concepts).

I consider myself fortunate that I no longer consider needless barriers and punishment a necessary feature in an MMO in order for it to be worth playing. Coming from someone who played at a fairly high level in a game where the option to change builds for different roles on the fly, I know first hand how much of an enormous asset it can be to groups, especially when the group size tends to get larger in endgame activities. Having the versatility within a group to adjust to situations beyond control (disconnects, no-shows, etc.) is an enormous asset. Enormous. It can't be overstated just how much of a benefit it is to groups. But apparently, thinking from that angle is...taboo. I don't know how else to describe it. I'll never stop being shocked at how quick some people can be to demonstrate a willingness to slap all kinds of restrictions and penalties on themselves (and the people around them, for that matter.) Arbitrarily. No good reason for it. They just do.

It's not the idea that bothers me. It's the thoughtlessness behind it. It's that selfish willingness to propose an idea that, if implemented, would have a negative impact on a fairly significant number of people...just because. Because letting go of the old is hard. Because thinking big picture is not something most people are accustomed to doing. Because reading slow enough to actually grasp and comprehend information as it is presented is apparently a vastly inferior alternative to skimming and jumping to conclusions.

If the community here at large wants another farce a la the FFXI feedback and suggestion boards, let's sort it out now. Let's get it out of the way. If, as a community, we want to support ludicrous demands of the developer and encourage the idea of burying all of the reasonably well thought out suggestions under a mountain of undecipherable nonsense that one might consider a first-pass brainstorming outcome, then let's do that. Get it out in the open. Define the community's standards for intellectual maturity and responsibility now.

I'd like to think the community as a whole has a better impression of itself and the mental acuity to live up to that impression and stop with the *********, semi-informed crybaby nonsense. That's my pie in the sky pipe dream, and if other people can cling to their over ambitious notions of the way things "should" be and do so with impunity, so can I.
#138 Apr 18 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
response


Sure, and I get disagreeing with their point of view, I do. I think that an opinion like this one (from the post above):

jski wrote:
Would be kind of cool to only be able to play as one type of jobs [sic]


...flies in the face of one of FFXI's biggest draws (the ability to change jobs on one character). I don't get why anyone would want to take such a massive step backwards.

But you can't start getting all huffy about it...people are going to have differing opinions, like it or not. And since they're not being rude in the manner that they bring them up, I don't think you've got a leg to stand on here.
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#139 Apr 18 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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If someone wants to play the whole game as a Thaumaturge and INT is the best modifier for them, I don't think it's fair or plausible that someone who played the whole time as a Lancer can just swap to thaumaturge, re-allocate all their STR stats to INT in 3 seconds and be the same as the Thaumaturge who just played it for however many levels. There wouldn't be any player diversity, everyone would have the same stats if that's the case depending on class.


Think of your stats as something similar to talents in WoW; you can spend them however you want to fit your style of play, but if you make a mistake in allocation or want to redistribute your points completely, then you're free to do so (probably for a small fee).

I don't think that things will be as bad as you think they will be. Sure, there'll be cookie-cutter specs, but that's to be expected, nor is it a bad thing. I can picture some flexibility with stats, such as a caster taking points out of MP and putting them into HP for more survivability, or tanks that spend a few extra points in DPS stats for additional enmity.

Quote:
I don't understand why this game has to be so easy to the point where that if any difficulty whatsoever is implemented, it'll somehow ruin the game because most people want everything on a silver platter. Life isn't like that, why should all games be like that? I plan to spend a rediculous amount of time in Eorzea and I want to be rewarded for my efforts. I don't want an 8 year old kid who plays 30 minutes a day to be as good as me because they want to make the game accessible to the WoW crowd, or for people with ADD.


It depends on what you mean by difficulty. A lot of the "difficult" parts of FFXI were either simply time-consuming or just Fake Difficulty rather than actual challenges to overcome. I'd rather see challenges that reward skill as opposed to time investment, wouldn't you agree?

Also, you seem to underestimate the time and effort it takes to get ahead in games like WoW. Look at heroic modes in ICC; to date, only 3 guilds have successfully downed the Lich King on 25-man heroic mode, and while that number will increase as the ICC buff reaches 30%, it's still going to require that you be in a good raiding guild that can handle the other hard modes. It's taken months for the first Shadowmournes to start appearing, and it'll take many more months for those who are still waiting for theirs to get their Shadowfrost shards. It took months for guilds to put together a single Val'anyr when Ulduar was new, nevermind a second one.

These are the kinds of things that Square needs to put into FFXIV to keep people playing. Thing is, they need to be reasonably achievable. Making bosses that are virtually unbeatable and giving no indicators of the strategy required to defeat them isn't the way to do things; peoples' efforts are better spent fighting battles they have a reasonable chance of winning, using mechanics that they're familiar with or can otherwise recognize quickly. Spending years trying to make one guy's sword or shield isn't a particularly realistic goal for people to have; you basically have to form your own guild and trick people into making the thing for you, or be so ******* rich that guilds will gladly pass on the material components if you pay them enough. I'd rather that development time be spent on goals that are achievable in a reasonable amount of time with a moderate amount of effort and skill devoted to doing so.
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#140 Apr 18 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't want to see free respecs, or even ones easily aquired thru a fine or purchase. I would possibly go for it being achievable through a repeatable quest, but it needs to be something that in some way would limit its avaliability. Keep in mind though, that I am completely for having it avaliable though. What i would prefere not to see, is the avaliability to respec/rehab/reallocate what ever you wish to call it, avaliable on a daily, or even weekly basis.


I have to disagree. Being able to change specs frequently encourages experimentation. If I can only respec weekly or monthly, then I'm going to be very conservative about how I spent my points, and I'm probably not going to deviate from already established norms. For instance, if I decide to reallocate my Puglist tank's stats to give myself more VIT and fewer HPs, and that turns out to be a bad decision, or if I misclick and allocate points in the wrong stat, I'm screwed for the week/month/whatever, whereas I would have been fine if I could have simply gotten another reallocation. I do think it should cost money to respec, though.
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#141 Apr 18 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Default
Eske wrote:

But you can't start getting all huffy about it...people are going to have differing opinions, like it or not. And since they're not being rude in the manner that they bring them up, I don't think you've got a leg to stand on here.


It's bound to happen. There have been a number of posts lately...people seeing information from the alpha, completely misinterpreting it and then coming back with their misinterpretation stated as fact, etc., that would qualify for some gentle mockery that may or may not include references to literacy standards, but I've left them alone. After a while, the spiral begins again. It goes from whimsical supposition mixed with misinformation and then all of a sudden BLAM!! Great heaping piles of dumb. Then they crying and sobbing and accusations of meanie-headedness and, "Why can't we all just get along?!!?!! Smiley: cry"...

...and then they get tired. Getting lost in the clouds isn't worth getting pelted with spitballs so they all settle more or less down to earth for a little while and prance in the fields with the happy unicorns and shiny frogs and all is right with the world again. For a few days...and then the dumb demon crawls out from under his bridge and starts lobbing silly-gas bombs all over the place and off into the clouds they go again.

We're probably a good 6 months or so from seeing FFXIV on retail shelves (give or take...the purpose isn't to predict). When the game goes live there are still going to be threads that I have no interest in. There are still going to be people who buy the game and then while they're waiting for it to install having not even named their first post-beta character yet, they're going to be dreaming about what races/classes/weapons/mobs/areas/exotic turtles are going to be in the first expansion? And they're going to think that it's oh-so-relevant to a game just released that threads about first expansion speculation should have their place and you know what? I'll leave them alone. (Except for male Miqo'te crap...that's like putting pie in front of a fat man.)

But when it comes to people complaining about features the way people have been complaining about the new FFXI/EQ skins around here? Fair game, baby. All the friggin' way. Open seasons on whiners and crybabies because at that point, I would expect most people will be too busy learning how to play the game to be spending their time thinking of ways SE should revamp large aspects of it to suit their own particular liking.
#142 Apr 18 2010 at 2:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
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6,470 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
It's bound to happen. There have been a number of posts lately...people seeing information from the alpha, completely misinterpreting it and then coming back with their misinterpretation stated as fact, etc., that would qualify for some gentle mockery that may or may not include references to literacy standards, but I've left them alone. After a while, the spiral begins again. It goes from whimsical supposition mixed with misinformation and then all of a sudden BLAM!! Great heaping piles of dumb. Then they crying and sobbing and accusations of meanie-headedness and, "Why can't we all just get along?!!?!! Smiley: cry"...


Eh...I still think you're taking this all waaaaaay too seriously.



But on to more important matters: Let's talk about male Mi'qote! I heard that in a new interview, Tanaka says that you won't be able to play as male mi'qote. But if you watch as he says it, he shifts his foot ever-so-slightly to the left (a clear sign that he's lying). Also, the interview was conducted on April 15th, which is exactly 14 (just like XIV) days after April Fool's day. Conclusive and indisputable proof that we'll be able to play as male mi'qote in FFXIV!!!!
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#145 Apr 18 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
46 posts
Quanta wrote:
Quote:
I don't want to see free respecs, or even ones easily aquired thru a fine or purchase. I would possibly go for it being achievable through a repeatable quest, but it needs to be something that in some way would limit its avaliability. Keep in mind though, that I am completely for having it avaliable though. What i would prefere not to see, is the avaliability to respec/rehab/reallocate what ever you wish to call it, avaliable on a daily, or even weekly basis.


I have to disagree. Being able to change specs frequently encourages experimentation. If I can only respec weekly or monthly, then I'm going to be very conservative about how I spent my points, and I'm probably not going to deviate from already established norms. For instance, if I decide to reallocate my Puglist tank's stats to give myself more VIT and fewer HPs, and that turns out to be a bad decision, or if I misclick and allocate points in the wrong stat, I'm screwed for the week/month/whatever, whereas I would have been fine if I could have simply gotten another reallocation. I do think it should cost money to respec, though.


Its hard to say I would disagree here, because your absolutely right, it would breed experimentation. The only thing I see as a problem I see in that, is how to know when you look up an aquantance for grouping, "what class are they today" . I am very much for "free respecing", I simply think there should be something or somewhay to limit it in some form. Not to mention the issue of needing alot of gear in storage to support the various need of tank gear one day, melee gear another, and another still needing caster or healer supporting gear.

MMOs have just gotten so dumbed down in my opinion, something WOW got a jumpstart on, there or so few, to no consequences anymore. no learning you class over time, and also the problem of someone doing some "uber cool stuff" one day, and ever johnny come lately would respec to match.
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#149 Apr 18 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
46 posts
One area of curiosity the unlimited diversity specualted of FFXIV is the gear and equipment. In past MMOs there is a strong tendancy for gear to have a class requirement such as tank classes wearing plate gear such as a plate breast plate, while casters are limited to leather gear or tunic, and what not. I would be curious to hear other potential players thoughts on this subject.
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#151 Apr 18 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
flukedrk the Shady wrote:
Really? Have you reverted to your third grade self by calling AureliusSir a girl, then telling him to take his anti-bloating, period medication? Really? His posts are well thought out, you just can't take a little ego bruising with no retaliation, can you?


Draqflame was nice enough to drop the 'Sir' from the end of my screen name yesterday, as it was actually one of those aberrations I added because my preferred name all those years ago was apparently taken. It was more a reference to the fact that I was playing on the Siren FFXI server. Either way I do in fact have a ***** and am content to let the nublets sputter indignantly to themselves about how lacking I am while they carry on their middle school tirades. For now. Just fuel for the blasting later, as it were.
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