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Physical Level = Cant Play All Classes Effectively?Follow

#152 Apr 18 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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wow after reading all this all i can think of is how the one and only whatever your name is needs to get a life your telling people to proof read their posts on an internet forum? ROFL...... seriously does it offend you that much that people come on here and talk about their previous experiences and thoughts? i believe the title of the thread is indeed a question so people anwsered it, if u cant handle that then maybe you should go do something else other than troll the forums trying to tell people how stupid they are and that your somehow the only person who could understand or be right about this, just shows your pure ignorance.

BAck to being on topic though:
I think that the linked posted earlier http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1270927751204019185&num=0&page=1 has some very good points,in my own opinion i see it working something like this but it is all to early to tell for sure so until some new info comes out it can only be speculation.
#157 Apr 18 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I asked nicely before, now I'm telling both of you to cut it out. I've nuked posts from your stupid little flamewar, so get back on topic.
#158The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: Apr 18 2010 at 3:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lock the thread. The OP's question was answered on page one. There's no topic left to get back to.
#159 Apr 18 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Lock the thread. The OP's question was answered on page one. There's no topic left to get back to.


I like where this is going. Giggity giggity.
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#160 Apr 18 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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odd, i don't even see a "?" in the OPs post.

I am still curious to hear more opinion on the topic, as well as discussion, on how they will work some of the gear, and whether or not anyone thinks they could have gear restrictions varying from tank to caster builds, as most MMOs have class restrictions on gear.
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#161 Apr 18 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Its hard to say I would disagree here, because your absolutely right, it would breed experimentation. The only thing I see as a problem I see in that, is how to know when you look up an aquantance for grouping, "what class are they today" . I am very much for "free respecing", I simply think there should be something or somewhay to limit it in some form. Not to mention the issue of needing alot of gear in storage to support the various need of tank gear one day, melee gear another, and another still needing caster or healer supporting gear.


You'll be able to tell what class they're playing by their weapon, and I assume that their class will show up in searches based on their equipped weapon. You can limit respeccing simply by having fees to do so. I'm not sure how you're going to be able to tell what a person's stats are, though; I imagine that inspecting them won't help. I'm not too concerned about inventory space as I'm assuming that most people will still have bank alts for storing stuff that they have no immediate use for. Equipment management is largely going to depend on how they handling binding items to players; will they be like FFXI, with most stuff tradable after it's been used, or will it bind to the character, or will it bind to the account? We'll have to see.

Quote:
MMOs have just gotten so dumbed down in my opinion, something WOW got a jumpstart on, there or so few, to no consequences anymore. no learning you class over time, and also the problem of someone doing some "uber cool stuff" one day, and ever johnny come lately would respec to match.


I disagree here. The consequences aren't as severe anymore because it's already disheartening enough to get a boss with millions of health to 5-10%, only for the group to wipe and that boss to heal to full. You might down him next attempt, sure...but you also might never make it to that point again for the rest of the night. To add level downs and such to that only makes an already dire situation worse.

As for learning one's class, have you ever played WoW at endgame? I'd say that there's far more people who play poorly or horribly than there are people who are good at the classes they play. This is after you take into account the vast amount of resources available to help people learn how to play their class effectively; it boggles the mind how a person can fail to grasp even the basics of their class when there's a half-dozen sticky threads on their class forums telling them what works best, with links to ElitistJerks and other sites for more in-depth analysis.

There's also nothing wrong with running a cookie-cutter spec; it's cookie-cutter because it's a good spec, after all. Whether you use that spec as-is, or try and adjust it to your particular group and/or playstyle is entirely up to you.
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#162 Apr 18 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I can see where your coming from. Part of what i was getting at, is the fact that if there are no gear restrictions to a class, do you believe we will see thaumaturge capable o frunning arount in full metal "plate" armor, and situations like such. Or to know if players feel there will be some form of gear restrictions, and/or how they believe it should work.

As far as consequences mentioned, Quanta, I am not sure we are refering to consequences in the same way....are you refering to consequences of death, or consequences of some other form ?
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#163 Apr 18 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe gear is divided up by Disciple? I'd be more interested to see if you can set your gear per Disciple, without it taking up inventory space.

Since we're being given so much freedom in how we create our characters, perhaps there will be, indeed, a little more "freedom"?

If the the Disciples are more of a mode of learning and specializing in that classes abilities, and you'll have a chance to "respec" in the case you "mess up". I dont think people should worry too much.

I think people need to think more about their actual "Character" than their specific Archetype. Specialize in the Weapons/spells/abilities that you want to specialize in. And compensate with gear, and however else you can augment your stats.

Both Melee and Mages are gonna need essential stats no matter which way you slice it. You're gonna need HP, VIT, and AGI (if they are worthwhile to sublimating damage)especially if you plan on soloing.
Lots of INT and STR are great, but if you can be killed in one hit, then its kinda pointless.
Also, we don't know if INT/MND/CHR can benefit certian disciple of wars abilities. Or if STR/DEX can benefit some of Disciples if Magics abilities. And then of course theres mixing and matching abilities and spells from multiple disciples.
Because of this, I can see that there are advantages to being more rounded, or specialized. It all depends on what you want to use and what roll you want to play.
And that's exciting!
If you plan on using multiple Disciples, then having a more broad stats can be beneficial.
If you're focusing on just War, or Magic, then you can specialize accordingly. It depends on what you want your -Character- to be good at.
A certain desciple could just be a means to an end for the end result that you want.
ie You want to have the utility to be able to cast Cure on your Desciple of War classes, for soloing/tanking, so you level Conjurere and just focus on those, and then go back to your Gladiator and never switch to Conjurer again except to "skill up".
#164 Apr 18 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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My happy middle may differ slightly from the norm, I don't know-- I just know that I don't want it to be either too easy nor too difficult to respec. I want to be able to change my playstyle every now and again, but I also don't want it to be so easy to do that I become expected to do it by a bunch of munchkins (re: the majority of players).
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#165 Apr 19 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I can see where your coming from. Part of what i was getting at, is the fact that if there are no gear restrictions to a class, do you believe we will see thaumaturge capable o frunning arount in full metal "plate" armor, and situations like such. Or to know if players feel there will be some form of gear restrictions, and/or how they believe it should work.


I don't see it as happening, to be honest. Most heavy armors will probably lack caster stats, while most light armors will probably lack melee stats, so it'd be a moot point to equip your thaumaturge with heavy plate armor, assuming you even could. They could very well tie armor type to the type of weapon you have equipped.

Quote:
As far as consequences mentioned, Quanta, I am not sure we are refering to consequences in the same way....are you refering to consequences of death, or consequences of some other form ?


When someone says that there's "no more consequences" in MMOs, I assume they're referring to harsh penalties, usually related to death or some other kind of failure. You die, but you don't lose levels anymore. You failed a craft, but you don't lose materials anymore. You failed to complete a quest, but you can restart it and try again rather than have it be lost forever. You died in PvP, but nothing happened to you whatsoever; you just respawned. These are the things that come to mind when I see someone lamenting how things are getting "dumbed down" with fewer consequences, and all I can say to that is, "Good!", because it's bad enough just climbing back onto the horse and trying again without the developers kicking you down a flight of stairs whenever you happen to fall off.

Quote:
I also don't want it to be so easy to do that I become expected to do it by a bunch of munchkins (re: the majority of players).


Here's the thing: Most players won't give a crap what you play or how you play it, so long as you're good at it. Thing is, you'll have to be aware of how the stats and the class' various abilities work before you walk onto the battlefield with a weird spec. Most players will not have the mental capacity to actually do this, and they're going to be terrible if they try anything but the most cookie-cutter spec possible. So yeah, you'll be expected to do it...but only if you're bad.
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#166 Apr 19 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's the thing: Most players won't give a crap what you play or how you play it, so long as you're good at it. Thing is, you'll have to be aware of how the stats and the class' various abilities work before you walk onto the battlefield with a weird spec. Most players will not have the mental capacity to actually do this, and they're going to be terrible if they try anything but the most cookie-cutter spec possible. So yeah, you'll be expected to do it...but only if you're bad.


Pfft, like I don't know how it is?

Players will care because people set objectives and goals in an MMO, and that objective is almost never "to have fun." The objectives are explicitly victory and progression. For some people, victory on a case by case basis is satisfactory. Some people will view anything that impedes their progression the same as defeat, though. And before anyone pipes in with it, I'm the last person that needs to be told that some people find victory and progression fun. Don't miss my point.

I'm not worried about getting hassled. If anything I'm more worried about expecting myself to be awesome than what other people will expect. However, there's something that irks me about the possibility to have so much customization-- to be able to make a character that you want-- and at the same time be asked not to do that. It's to the point where I'd rather party with gimpy people who are having fun.

I'm just wondering how long it will be before someone is laughed/******* out of a party for having equipped the Steal ability because they want to play as a Thief. And unfortunately it's more likely to happen because these are the kinds of players that XI has retained and bred to move on to XIV.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 1:40am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#167 Apr 19 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Here's the thing: Most players won't give a crap what you play or how you play it, so long as you're good at it. Thing is, you'll have to be aware of how the stats and the class' various abilities work before you walk onto the battlefield with a weird spec. Most players will not have the mental capacity to actually do this, and they're going to be terrible if they try anything but the most cookie-cutter spec possible. So yeah, you'll be expected to do it...but only if you're bad.


Pfft, like I don't know how it is?

Players will care because people set objectives and goals in an MMO, and that objective is almost never "to have fun." The objectives are explicitly victory and progression. For some people, victory on a case by case basis is satisfactory. Some people will view anything that impedes their progression the same as defeat, though. And before anyone pipes in with it, I'm the last person that needs to be told that some people find victory and progression fun. Don't miss my point.

I'm not worried about getting hassled. If anything I'm more worried about expecting myself to be awesome than what other people will expect. However, there's something that irks me about the possibility to have so much customization-- to be able to make a character that you want-- and at the same time be asked not to do that. It's to the point where I'd rather party with gimpy people who are having fun.

I'm just wondering how long it will be before someone is laughed/******* out of a party for having equipped the Steal ability because they want to play as a Thief. And unfortunately it's more likely to happen because these are the kinds of players that XI has retained and bred to move on to XIV.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 1:40am by Kachi


It's a tough balance to strike when it comes to grouping. For as much as I'm hoping that we'll have a lot of unique and interesting class setups present, I know that there's going to be an occasion where I'm trying to form a group and we need a mage. But there's only one guy available, and he's a RDM/NIN who only wants to use En-spells and melee.
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#168 Apr 19 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a distinct difference between being able to function effectively at all, and being able to progress as quickly as one deems acceptable.

My **** this time around is going to be very simple. I'm not going to worry about progressing quickly and being the badass I once was. I wanted to do that in XI because progression was painful and ******. If progression is painful and ****** in XIV, I'm just going to NOT PLAY. I would rather have fun sucking and dying in a game that has good gameplay, and if that means I gimp myself in the process, then I'll just call it "hard mode."
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#169 Apr 19 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
There's a distinct difference between being able to function effectively at all, and being able to progress as quickly as one deems acceptable.

My sh*t this time around is going to be very simple. I'm not going to worry about progressing quickly and being the badass I once was. I wanted to do that in XI because progression was painful and sh*tty. If progression is painful and sh*tty in XIV, I'm just going to NOT PLAY. I would rather have fun sucking and dying in a game that has good gameplay, and if that means I gimp myself in the process, then I'll just call it "hard mode."


The way that I always looked at it was this:

For me, it wasn't necessarily about "progressing quickly" or being "badass". It took such an inordinate amount of time in FFXI to get an exp party set up, that when you finally got to work, you wanted to maximize the results. Eventually, I just couldn't devote 6 straight hours to doing an event or a good exp party, so every little issue that hampered them was exacerbated.

If I feel like doing something odd, which isn't really bringing my best to an exp party, then I'll do it on my own, or with friends. I generally expect as much of others, though desperation does a good job of changing my standards. I've definitely picked up a few of those RDM/NIN's from my example before (and they were all ****-near worthless).

So here's to hoping that streamlined partying mechanics help take some of the pressure off of exp parties, thereby opening the door to some unorthodox setups. If we can throw together a party and get to our destination in 5-10 minutes, we might find ourselves more open to trying out some new job combinations or leveling areas.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 10:43am by Eske
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#170 Apr 19 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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As far as the "consequences" go, no i wasn't refering to questing and/or death penalty in general. I was refering to choices. Since it was mentiones, i will say, IMO the worst death penalty ever, is losing levels. The two options i thought worked best from my MMO experience was either XP debt or jusr having stats lowered for a limited time.

For those who may not understand the XP debt, let me explain it. Upon death you get an XP debt, you don't actually lose anything, but say your debt is 1,000,000 and your killing mobs that give you 2000 XP per player in your group. If you died enough to havve that debt, then you get 1000 XP and 1000XP is charged to your debt. In other words, you only get 1/2 XP till your debt is paid off.

But, what I meant by consequences, was decisions on which direction to take your character. there are alot of "path"oriented MMOs out there. When i say "dumbed down" i refere to the fact that in general, things have lost there need for intelligence to figure out. **** some games you talk to an NPC for a quest, and literally have a line on the ground drawn to where you need to go. I miss the good ole days where you had NPCs that gave clues/hints/riddles and you had to figure them out, or actually explore an area to find what you are looking for. Quest that required thought, not just follow the yellow brick road and if you bring enough help you cant fail, kind of stuff.

Now on the topic of gear. A good point was made, that gear will have no requirements or restrictions to a class because the stats will themselves limit there usefulness to certain classes. Hopefully that will have a better design in FFXIV then other MMOs that relied on that concept, As I have played 2 that worked that way, but it didn't pan out to work as intended, partially to all the free/unlimited respecs. But thats a whole other discussion.

I have alot of faith in SE at this point though, due to the fact that there are alot om MMOs that havve been out there over the years, and from what I read, they were clear to point out that they have learned from FFXI as well as other MMOs. Stack that on top of what appears to be some fresh approaches they appear to be attempting to make, and I think they may find the best balance we will have seen in a game in a very long time.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 12:14pm by coglins

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 12:15pm by coglins
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#171 Apr 19 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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re; player choices being contrary to party play expectations

If character customization has been the headliner in your marketing campaign for close to a year, you had ******* better have the mechanics to encourage that exact sort of behavior, in all forms of play. Simply making it 'available' is worlds apart from making it 'viable', which is a grand solar system away from 'encouraged'. If there really was one lesson that should have been painfully obvious from XI, it was that.

If they drop the ball in this regard, I sincerely hope it lands on their foot.




Edited, Apr 19th 2010 8:11pm by Zemzelette
#172 Apr 19 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:


I'm just wondering how long it will be before someone is laughed/******* out of a party for having equipped the Steal ability because they want to play as a Thief. And unfortunately it's more likely to happen because these are the kinds of players that XI has retained and bred to move on to XIV.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 1:40am by Kachi


Hey, maybe steal is uber-useful and/or gives some kind of alternate benefit when used by different desciples?
#173 Apr 19 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Well steal can be made usefull, I played one MMO in which a bard could be either minstrel or gypsy, and one of the gypsy abilities was a steal that did decent damage and had a strength modifier, was a pretty decent abilitiy for damage.

In another MMO I played, steal took coin and either debuffed a stat on the mob, or caused some negative status effect, I don't recall which.

In either case it was a usefull ability that noone even thought about shunning a player for.
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#174 Apr 20 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
DreamerGuy wrote:
Hey, maybe steal is uber-useful and/or gives some kind of alternate benefit when used by different desciples?

That would be nice if it had that flexibility, but I'd put money on them just being the same skill on a longer cooldown depending on your disc.

That'd be pretty sweet though. Like acting as Mug for melees. This would also make it so it isn't an inefficiently used skill slot since even if the monster doesn't have anything left it can still act as a free Double Attack on a cooldown.

Perhaps Casters get a longer cooldown, but it has a chance to stun... or Steal MP? :3

Of course it needs to be best for the discipline it was intended for, so I dunno bout dat yet.
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#175 Apr 20 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Default
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I didn't read all the pages.
Someone earlier said that getting 100str and 0int would be gimping you as a Mage if you were trying to change class on the go and it wouldn't be worth getting 50str and 50int cause it would cause you to be gimped on both classes. But stats increase in point cost as you put more points into it, so it would be closer to maybe 70str 70int vs 100str 0int, which might actually be worth it to hybrid assuming you want to play multiple classes
again sorry if it was already mentioned
#176 Apr 20 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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It's possible that physical level doesn't have that much of an affect as the class itself. I was thinking it's more like earning merit points as you level as opposed to FFXI where you don't get into customizing those things until you are capped but carry over to any job you play. So in essence, you earn exp and merits at the same time and you use your physical level points as merits to give your character a customized difference. Ex. A level 50 mage gets 50ish INT/MND points, and maybe 5 more INT from their physical level (by choice). This way all the classes are playable, but you still specialize your character towards your favorite "main" class.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 2:06pm by Harri
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#177 Apr 20 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Harri wrote:
It's possible that physical level doesn't have that much of an affect as the class itself. I was thinking it's more like earning merit points as you level as opposed to FFXI where you don't get into customizing those things until you are capped but carry over to any job you play. So in essence, you earn exp and merits at the same time and you use your physical level points as merits to give your character a customized difference. Ex. A level 50 mage gets 50ish INT/MND points, and maybe 5 more INT from their physical level (by choice). This way all the classes are playable, but you still specialize your character towards your favorite "main" class.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 2:06pm by Harri
\

Actually, I think the focus is going to be the complete opposite of what you said.
Physical Level, will be YOUR CHARACTER. You have complete control what stats you want. And your "class", through archetype weapon, is a means of learning new abilities and specializing.
#178 Apr 21 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
re; player choices being contrary to party play expectations

If character customization has been the headliner in your marketing campaign for close to a year, you had ******* better have the mechanics to encourage that exact sort of behavior, in all forms of play. Simply making it 'available' is worlds apart from making it 'viable', which is a grand solar system away from 'encouraged'. If there really was one lesson that should have been painfully obvious from XI, it was that.

If they drop the ball in this regard, I sincerely hope it lands on their foot.


QFT btw
QFT

In all honesty, with what SE has been saying you will be able to play every class whenever and however you want or it wont be designed as intended.
#179 Apr 22 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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this is the way i see it, and hope SE does this
your able to change jobs on the fly in passive mode by changing your weapons, simple.
stats on the other hand have to be changed while in town, lets say u gota talk to some npc b4 u can change them, sorta like the MH in ff11. that way when u change jobs ur not always having to fiddle with ur stats all the time and at the same time locked into a specific job role (DD, Tank, Mage).

heres an example, ur in a 3 man pt are destroying mobs left and right with a DD,DD,DD mage setup then all of a sudden a strong mob starts attacking. so all the DD switch from a sword/h2h/spear weapon to a sword/shield (pld) comb to tank sure they wont be the best tanks but its better then being pure DD and dieing. While the mage currently a DD mage sees that its a hard mob and switchs to a healer. unstead of u just whiping, now u have a different pt setup to handle it. its not the best but better then what u had. when its dead everyone switchs back and continues.

i don't see why a mage specilist would want to switch to a melee job on the fly, it doesn't make sense really unless ur soloing.
in a party suitution a person is design to play a specific role not every job at once. u need the basics, a tanker, a healer, DD (which im pretty sure they didn't change) and when the suitution changes at that moment they can switch to something else to for better efficiency. this could work both ways mind u, a melee turning into a tank to help with hate and survivability, a DD mage switching to a healer for extra help and vice versa.
#180 May 04 2010 at 1:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I just read an article from 電撃ゲームスVol.8....
According to it, there is price to pay to be able to redistribute your physical point.
They didn't state what the price would be, but they are guessing as Experience Point.
Maybe the system will be somewhat similar to merit point distribution from FFXI.


from: http://ffxiv-fan.rulez.jp/20100423.php

Edited, May 4th 2010 3:24am by hexid
#182 May 11 2010 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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MrNumptyk wrote:
But I think that's the whole point of the system, balance. How would it be balanced if you could switch from a godly melee to a godly healer on the fly? It wouldn't.

If you want to be able to play melee and healer at the same time you'll have to balance your stats accordingly. This will ofcourse mean you won't be great at either but you'll still have the benefit of being able to switch between the two roles at will. After hearing about 15 player parties this makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how it'll become extremely useful. (For example being able to switch seamlessly from back-up tank to back-up healer)


because you can't do everything all at once. this is not a new question, D&D3.5 unearthed arcana, as a for-instance, described "gestalt characters" wherein players were allowed to level two classes simultaneously (and pick from the better of the two classes if any statistics conflicted, like saves and hit dice). obviously the player characters thus generated were more "powerful" than vanilla, but the book went on to point out that they were not more powerful than vanilla in the only ways that were actually important:

1. they had the same number of actions available per round. even a barb/cleric can't cast Heal and make a full round attack at the same time. maybe a cleric/wiz could cast just about any spell in the player handbook, but he had to follow normal casting/scribing rules, and that includes limits on things like the number of Quickened spells he can cast per round -- all player characters were limited by time. they had an expanded repertoire of abilities, per-character, but a party of three gestalt characters would get utterly stomped by a party of six vanilla characters.

2. player power, in terms of PvE or PvP, is only meaningful relative to that player's challenge. that is, in PvE, player power is measured against NPC power (and, obviously, in PvP it just boils down to a specific kind of inter-class balance which i personally believe is just stupid to apply to any current RPG system. if you want real PvP balance, go play QuakeLive. srsly.)

Quote:
Honestly we still don't have enough information about the system at large to be making any rash assumptions.


i'll go ahead and make some educated rash assumptions.

if you can play both a max healer and a max melee at the same time, it will be because this functionality does not overpower you against your opponents (monsters) and/or because you can't use every ability you have simultaneously in real time.

if you can't play both a max healer role and a max melee role at the same time, it will be balanced because this is the entire point of a class-based system (which FFXIV has claimed explicitly that it is not so would you all please stfu about FFXI already?! sheesh....) and you can always just make another **** character to play the specialized role that you want.

or, if you can't play wildly different roles at the same time, it will be balanced because your power (as a multiplayer character) is not meant to encompass absolutely every facet of gameplay simultaneously. seriously? it's so childish, i struggle to grasp -- five year olds, while playing cowboys and space aliens will shoot at each other (*pew pew!*) and then each rises to a strident scream of "nuh uh! nuh uh! you didn't hit me!". when i see the OP B'AWWWWWWWING because he might not be able to do everything at once, i find myself doing mutually exclusive things simultaneously: laughing and crying. laughing at the childish absurdity of wanting to play God in a shared fiction, and weeping for the future of humanity when i consider that the asshat who made the OP might be out of high school. this superposition of states allows me to both consider OP as utter nonsensical ******** and respond to it -- simultaneously.
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#183 May 12 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
2 posts
Hi guys,

First time poster here, very very interested in this topic.
Will post my speculations here, I've read the posts in this thread, great points and arguments were made.

For me personally, I would still like to see some aspects of the FFXI system (it is a good system there, no matter whatever negatives said, it has been going for 8 years and still going...so there are good points nevertheless), and also just out of interest I would like to bring out FFXIII battle system into account as well.

I want to start by thinking that Physical Level (PL) will be equivalent to your character level in FFXI, and the Class Rank (CR) will be equivalent to your Weapon/Magic skills (H2H, Sword, Shield, GK, Elemental Magic, Enfeebling Magic, etc.).
Everytime you win a battle, you will get some exp points and also some "Class" exp points (shown in several image posts from Alpha). Exp points will go toward increasing your PL and the "Class" exp points will go toward increasing your CR. I assume the amounts of exp points and "Class" exp points you get will vary depending on your current PL and CR compared to the mobs.

As your PL increases, you will get some stat points to be allocated to your char primary stats (in XI this is automatic, but I think in XIV we would have to allocate this manually). I would think you also gain general skills as you gain PLs (this would be your standard rest, form a party, trade, ride a chocobo, even teleport or warp skills, etc.).
Personally, I think we only need to increase our PL once for each character, i.e. once you reach max Physical Level on a char, you will always be at that level regardless of your class. As SE indicated, you would be able to reallocate your stats (respec) anytime you are in "Passive" mode (out of combat), and the cost of this respec will be close to nothing.

As your CR increases, you will basically be more proficient in that class, i.e. deals more dmg, hit more accurately with the class-weapons, have access to more weapon/magic skills AND have access to more Class-abilities.
There will probably be 3 types of Class-abilities: Class-specific abilities, Class-shared abilities, and Class general abilities.
- Class-specific abilities are abilities that you can use only when you are in that class (this would be equivalent to your 2-hour ability in XI).
- Class-shared abilities are abilities that can be used even when you change to different classes, however with a reduced effect/certain penalty.
- Class general abilities are abilities that can be used even when you change to different classes without any penalty, but can only be obtained from a specific class when you reach a particular rank (this may be similar to Job Traits in XI).

Personally, I would think the majority of class-abilities will be either of shared type or general type.

I will use the following convention [Physical Level]/[Class] [Class Rank] (e.g. for Physical Level of 75 and Pugilist with Class Rank of 75, I would say it as 75/PUG 75)

So, am I saying that once I reached 75/PUG 75 for example, I can switch to a Gladiator with Class Rank 1 (75/GLD 1) and retain my stats? I would say yes, the base dmg calculated from my STR stat and the base accuracy calculated from my DEX stat would be the same in the above example since my Physical Level is the same. The difference will in weapon dmg, weapon accuracy, weapon/magic-skills, and class-abilities.

As someone has mentioned, SE may be trying to eliminate the low-level grinding experience so it would encourage people to level more classes (easier to go from 75/GLD 1 to 75/GLD 75 than to go from 1/GLD 1 to 75/GLD 75). That being said, I would hope that the Class Rank levelling system would be much more comprehensive compared to the weapon skill-ups system in XI.

So now, why would SE want to design the game this way? Someone was saying, a good solid group of hardcore players would then be able to reach max Physical Level and ranked up all classes to max in a reasonably short period of time. What's the point of recruiting more people since they pretty much covered everything?

I really believe that SE is trying to create a system that would allow versatility and flexibility for the players, instead of categorizing people into certain jobs/classes. I also think the game is designed so that people emphasize more on battle strategy where the party would need to adapt accordingly to battle conditions. I would like to bring in FFXIII into the picture, because in this game this so-called strategy has been illustrated quite well. Although simple in nature, the 'Paradigm Shift' system I think is what SE will aim to explore and elaborate further in XIV.

Please feel free to give comments/feedbacks. Many of the previous posts have already included what I written out here, just added my personal opinions here and there. Sorry it's a bit long. :)
#184 Jun 08 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
12 posts
this may sound outlandish and not like something the FF series would do. but i'll throw out my 2 cents concerning the link of the physical lvl and job lvl.

say they max a job lvl at lvl 25, and physical lvl at 100, you could spend your first 25 lvls doing 1 job, but then you've maxed your physical lvl for that job, and would need to pick a new job to continue that physical lvl to 50 but then taking a page from FF tactics, new job lvls unlock new jobs combining the skill sets of the prereq jobs giving you a reason to lvl certian jobs to get other jobs.

the more i write this the more i think it would cause people to replay the same areas which would be bad. but idk i was trying to think outside the conventional mmo box but inside the relm of FF.

i continue.

this would cause a player to pick multiple jobs or different jobs to get different combinations of higher tier jobs for end game. ... something like if a gladiator lvled white mage they'd then become / unlock a paladin, like wise with blackmage to become a darknight..... combination of mage types for summoner and so on. it would give the player customizability for their character up to 100 lvls of any job combos they want... and provide the need for players to branch out their typical range and play other job methods.
#185 Jun 08 2010 at 4:48 AM Rating: Good
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just like what WoW did, you select 2 types of stats + gear and save them, then you can switch any time you like with one click.
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#186 Jun 09 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
45 posts
I would expect that your stats will be a combination of two things, your physical level (and the related distribution) and your job level.

For example, let's say there are 50 physical levels, and each gives you one stat point to distribute. You can dump these all into two stats (25 points each) or spread it across 5 stats (10 points each.)

Now, let's say your job is also maxed, and it's a melee job. Your melee stats will be raised to a high degree, and your magic stats will be lower.

Your actual stats would end up being job stats + distributed stats.

The advantage to this is a reduced disparity based on stat distribution, and more based on your current job skill, but still the ability to fine tune based on your needs. In these circumstances, you might see a player with melee-focused stats with something like 75 Str + 0 Int when meleeing, and 25 Str + 50 Int when casting.

Thus allowing you to operate reasonably as each, but be more effective in the one you've chosen to specialize in.
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#187 Jun 09 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
homeschoolzam wrote:
I would expect that your stats will be a combination of two things, your physical level (and the related distribution) and your job level.

For example, let's say there are 50 physical levels, and each gives you one stat point to distribute. You can dump these all into two stats (25 points each) or spread it across 5 stats (10 points each.)

Now, let's say your job is also maxed, and it's a melee job. Your melee stats will be raised to a high degree, and your magic stats will be lower.

Your actual stats would end up being job stats + distributed stats.

The advantage to this is a reduced disparity based on stat distribution, and more based on your current job skill, but still the ability to fine tune based on your needs. In these circumstances, you might see a player with melee-focused stats with something like 75 Str + 0 Int when meleeing, and 25 Str + 50 Int when casting.

Thus allowing you to operate reasonably as each, but be more effective in the one you've chosen to specialize in.


There are no stat points gained from increasing your class rank. All stat points come from raising your physical level.
#188 Jul 01 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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I'm guessing it will feel sort of like when your a level 75 BST and you pick up a sword for the first time and have 0 skill. You can fight Easy Prey mobs and get some exp, but you will be dealing a ton less damage than someone who had a fully skilled sword skill.

There are probably stats associated with physical level and stats associated with your class. For example, maybe your physical level builds your base attributes like STR and INT, HP etc and Class level assocated only with weapon and magic skill levels.

My guess is that the EXP you gain will be based on your physical level, and levelling up new Classes will be more like skilling up weapons was in FFXI.... This would mean that you could have two distinct types of "partying". One that accomplished exp for physical level (and skills for whichever class you are playing) and other parties that don't care about exp, but are focused on leveling up Classes (or weapons so to speak).

So maybe peoples signatures will say stuff like:

Physical lvl 50
Pugilist lvl 50
Lancer lvl 18

I mean, they call it whatever they want, but in the end we are all still going to be killing mobs over and over again to grow our characters. Whether its in the form of EXP or Weapon skills or whatever they want to call it. There's only so many ways to do it.

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