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Create your own Class! (Possible?)Follow

#1 Apr 10 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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So looking at the various skills available, and the potential to customise what we use at any one time, do you think we'll truly be able to come with our own variations?

Something I was thinking about was the possibility of creating a Dark Knight type of class from the Marauder and Thaumaturge. If we're able to grant abilities from the thaumaturge to another class whilst we're playing it, we could move such spells as absorb-acc and absorb-TP over (As I've been led to believe they exist?) as well as Aspir and Drain for example. Then perhaps we could invest points into MP and perhaps other stats such as intelligence as well as the staple marauder stats? (as I believe you're given points on each time you gain a 'physical level').

I'm just guessing here but it really does seem like there's a lot of potential for customisation, I know people were discussing the creation of a 'Theif' type class from Marauder [blindside] and Lancer [Trick attack or whatever] skills.

Any other ideas? Exciting times!
#2 Apr 10 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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So looking at the various skills available, and the potential to customise what we use at any one time, do you think we'll truly be able to come with our own variations?


Pretty much yes. Only few skills are restricted to just one weapon type, and skills don't lose much of their power when equipped by a different class.

You could probably make a Dark Knight out of Pugilist, Gladiator or Lancer too. And when Scythe/Great sword weapon type is introduced... even a normal FFXI DRK.
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#3 Apr 10 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Reading various interviews, and I'll be fast to admit I haven't read them all cause I can't find them all, it seems like that's the idea behind the new class system. They want you to customize your own class. They have however said that there will be limitations on which skills can be carried over to other jobs. They haven't said what the limits will be, or how the restrictions will work. But I'm guessing it's just so that it's not everyone using a single "game breaking" class.
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#4 Apr 10 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Indeed, it's appeared that way even from earlier interviews.

I imagine Ranged attacks and Magic caster go together like peanut butter and jelly. We'll probably see some Archer (and whatever class eventually ends up using all those guns and gunpowder) and Magic combos floating around.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 12:08pm by Zemzelette
#5 Apr 10 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
I hadn't even thought about what I would use as a "sub" of sorts for my pugilist.. needs more info!
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#6 Apr 10 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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I guess if you combined an archer as your current class and then (if you can) take the "steal" and/or "featherfoot" ability from pugilist to make yourself some sort of thief. I wonder what else can be mixed together and work well in solo and/or party situations.
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#7 Apr 10 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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#8 Apr 10 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I love the Paladin class, so a Gladiator mixed with Thaumaturge would be very exciting for me. But I think it would be just as exciting to try to make a Dark Paladin. DRK in FFXI was exciting, but I've always preferred sword/shield, so I think it would be neat to make a "Dark" gladiator of sorts.

I'm very excited for this type of system. Playing around with subs didn't work quite the same way. For example, PLD/BLM?? Don't think so. In 14 it sounds like we'll be able to make up these combinations without being totally gimp.
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#9 Apr 10 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm very excited for this type of system. Playing around with subs didn't work quite the same way. For example, PLD/BLM?? Don't think so. In 14 it sounds like we'll be able to make up these combinations without being totally gimp.


Well yeah, since you can choose your own stats and they're not predetermined. So it's not the lack of INT or MP that will make you unable to be "Dark" Gladiator at least.
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#10 Apr 10 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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No, I'm quite sure if you try mixing in BLM-type skills with your gladiator, people will still think you're insane. There was nothing stopping you from having BLM as a sub in FFXI as your sub, and people didn't do it.

I'm sure the same will apply in 14 if you show up to a group and your gladiator is tossing around weak fire spells. The option will be there for sure, but many will ask why you aren't spec'ed the preferred way which will be 'cookie cutter model A' which includes all the gladiator abilities you should have as well as the preferred skills Godly Gladiator X has been using.

I'm sure most groups will not want hybrids as part of their group, as efficiency will be important to most. 15 hybrids in a group doesn't sound efficient. 15 players maxed out in their chosen field I'm sure will kill far quicker. Like, why have 3 average healers, when you can just have 1 kickbutt healer and fill the other 2 spots with elite DD.

The same reason why people chose to only merit with certain setups will still apply in this game. Sure you could merit on pink birds with 6 rdm's... but 95% of people won't bother with that.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 1:56pm by ShonaSeraph
#11 Apr 10 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Considering the Lancer supposedly has some TP generating skill for the party, perhaps you could use Absorb TP from Thaumaturge and really build it up, or another thing I think could be interesting would be to create Red Mage out of Conjurer and Thaumaturge (I'm a magic lover).

So many possibilities!

EDIT: In reference to the above, I think the reason we even have the option to consider these things is because, unlike FFXI where the option to go WAR/BLM really wasnt there due to a deficit of required stats and skill levels, all skills can be capped if worked on, and all stats can be adjusted to fit your needs.
We don't know how things will pan out, but a gladiator that wants to cast Burn on a large group of enemies to help it hold aggro might be more viable this time around. Be creative, it's more fun than assuming it'll fail I promise.

Besides, the fact that the game has more solo elements leaves a far greater space for experimentation that in FFXI, you'll still be able to gain XP if you try out something people might not recommend.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 2:03pm by Dlaqev
#12 Apr 10 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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So you mean I can be a useful THF/WHM? I kid I kid!

I hope that the limitations are minimal, cause custom creating jobs from past FF games not only sounds fun, but seeing what you & other people can create or custom build will be fun also.
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#13 Apr 10 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
I'm sure the same will apply in 14 if you show up to a group and your gladiator is tossing around weak fire spells.


Except it will not be quite so gimp. SE stated that "most" skills will be the same no matter which discipline you are currently playing. They did say that some will have to be scaled back to maintain balance.

Yes, I do not underestimate the community's ability to pigeonhole everyone in cookie cutter set ups. However, I do believe there will be quite a few more degrees of freedom.
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#14 Apr 10 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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So you mean I can be a useful THF/WHM? I kid I kid!

Anna already proved that's not possible.
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#15 Apr 10 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Well, in FFXI the scythe was the DRK's main weapon. As far as our information goes at this point in time, the scythe is on the table for a definite "We would like to get this item and a class associated with it into the game at some point" we don't know if said job will be "DRK" or whether it will be anything close to the Dark Knight at this time.

PLD could probably be made via great sword should they add those in like they discussed. Instead of being a Sword and Board, perhaps this paladin could be more the holy warrior that can still take a good beating type of tank.

I don't remember Katana/Great Katana ever being mentioned for a SAM/NIN type class, but that is certainly not to say that they won't show up sometime down the line.

Maybe they can add whips for SMN (I can wish, can't I?)

I would still really like to see BLU back in the game. I rather liked learning monster attacks. =)

I feel like we could use a few more mage classes. Just 2 with a wide variety of abilities seems a little dilute.

We still have no pure healer. Perhaps we could see WHM in some form (Heal/Buff/Holy spells) implemented with a hammer/mace weapon.

Illusionist could be added, but it may already be covered by Conj or Thau or a combination of the two.

Geomancer

Bard & or Dancer would be nice to come back. Perhaps they could have a lute type weapon similar to LOTRO and, more FF-esque, FF4's Edward?

An Engineer like Edward from FF6 could be a blast too.

I could probably go on forever.... >.>;
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#16 Apr 10 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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"We would like to get this item and a class associated with it into the game at some point" we don't know if said job will be "DRK" or whether it will be anything close to the Dark Knight at this time.


DRK already exists in the game, only the weapon type is missing.

Quote:
PLD could probably be made via great sword should they add those in like they discussed. Instead of being a Sword and Board, perhaps this paladin could be more the holy warrior that can still take a good beating type of tank.


Gladiator + healing spells from Conjurer.

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We still have no pure healer. Perhaps we could see WHM in some form (Heal/Buff/Holy spells) implemented with a hammer/mace weapon.


Classes in XIV are mix of 2 jobs (thinking XI terms). From there on you mix and match abilities and spells to make whatever you want from it.

So no, no "pure healer" like the way you're thinking. Conjurer can still be made into one, which is the point of the whole system.
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#17 Apr 10 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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#18 Apr 10 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm led to believe you will have to discover classes by unlocking skills and progressing a certain amount in one or more classes.

I.e.
-A gladiator who has specialized in vit and str and uses a shield and uses the provoke skill often will unlock the paladin spirit. Go talk to npc, complete quest to collect 3 items, unlock paladin class.

-A character who uses pugilist to specialize in thf type attributes(agi,dex,steal) and has thaumaturge who specializes in elemental debuffs unlocks the ninja spirit. Go complete quest and unlock ninja class.
#19 Apr 10 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm led to believe you will have to discover classes by unlocking skills and progressing a certain amount in one or more classes.

I.e.
-A gladiator who has specialized in vit and str and uses a shield and uses the provoke skill often will unlock the paladin spirit. Go talk to npc, complete quest to collect 3 items, unlock paladin class.

-A character who uses pugilist to specialize in thf type attributes(agi,dex,steal) and has thaumaturge who specializes in elemental debuffs unlocks the ninja spirit. Go complete quest and unlock ninja class.


I don't think it's anything like that.

It's just basically using pugilist + thaumaturge and mix-matching skills and spells from both classes to create an "assassin" class. There's no need to unlock anything- the system allows you to be "ninja" as it is.

Same goes for Paladin. Level Gladiator, level Conjurer, take healing spells from conjurer and apply them to Gladiator.. and you're a "paladin". There's no need to unlock any classes, because the spells and skills aren't nearly as useless as in XI's subjob system. They retain most of their strength, so you won't be a gimp war/whm but an actual paladin.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 7:42pm by Hyanmen
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#20 Apr 10 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
So no, no "pure healer" like the way you're thinking. Conjurer can still be made into one, which is the point of the whole system.

I fear this will lead to even worse pigeonholing than in XI when it comes to parties. If you get all the spells automatically by leveling your conjurer skill, then you have all of the healing spells even if all you want to do is cast damaging magic and vice-versa. While you may be able to decide whether to use more healing or more damage while solo or with friends, you can bet that unless the damage spells are really impressive most parties will be inviting conjurers to equip all their healing abilities.
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#21 Apr 10 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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They retain most of their strength, so you won't be a gimp war/whm but an actual paladin.


The biggest assumption this statement makes is that SE is going to let you play in the sand until you have found the skills/attributes/stats that you want and then apply them however you like. I'm not willing to accept that just yet.

Another thing about that statement is that it would horribly limit the skills. Sure you could have a beefy gladiator who could cast cure. But what about paladin specific abilities. The difference between a paladin and a war/whm is that a war/whm (assuming war/whm is equivalent to whm/war) learns only war and whm abilities; whereas, a paladin will learn paladin abilities. It's almost an elitest view but a war/whm will never be a paladin.
#22 Apr 10 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I'm led to believe you will have to discover classes by unlocking skills and progressing a certain amount in one or more classes.

I.e.
-A gladiator who has specialized in vit and str and uses a shield and uses the provoke skill often will unlock the paladin spirit. Go talk to npc, complete quest to collect 3 items, unlock paladin class.

-A character who uses pugilist to specialize in thf type attributes(agi,dex,steal) and has thaumaturge who specializes in elemental debuffs unlocks the ninja spirit. Go complete quest and unlock ninja class.


I don't think it's anything like that.

It's just basically using pugilist + thaumaturge and mix-matching skills and spells from both classes to create an "assassin" class. There's no need to unlock anything- the system allows you to be "ninja" as it is.

Same goes for Paladin. Level Gladiator, level Conjurer, take healing spells from conjurer and apply them to Gladiator.. and you're a "paladin". There's no need to unlock any classes, because the spells and skills aren't nearly as useless as in XI's subjob system. They retain most of their strength, so you won't be a gimp war/whm but an actual paladin.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 7:42pm by Hyanmen


I see what you're going for there, however making myself an assassin still requires me to use knuckles instead of katanas? :( Want some BA damage dealing katanas! :D
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#23 Apr 10 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I fear this will lead to even worse pigeonholing than in XI when it comes to parties. If you get all the spells automatically by leveling your conjurer skill, then you have all of the healing spells even if all you want to do is cast damaging magic and vice-versa. While you may be able to decide whether to use more healing or more damage while solo or with friends, you can bet that unless the damage spells are really impressive most parties will be inviting conjurers to equip all their healing abilities.


That doesn't really make sense. It will be just like in any other game: healers will be invited more, nukers will be invited less (but still invited- you just have to lfg longer, just as usual). Or you can choose to heal if you don't want to lfg longer. It's up to you, but it won't be the reason for pigeon holing a class.

Healing Conjurers will get more parties, but Nuker Conjurers will get parties too- just like the situation was with WHM and BLM in XI. Nothing changes.

Now if nuking is made obsolete like in XI then the situation could change, but that has nothing to do with the new system.
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#24 Apr 10 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
TheMoreYouKnow wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
So no, no "pure healer" like the way you're thinking. Conjurer can still be made into one, which is the point of the whole system.

I fear this will lead to even worse pigeonholing than in XI when it comes to parties. If you get all the spells automatically by leveling your conjurer skill, then you have all of the healing spells even if all you want to do is cast damaging magic and vice-versa. While you may be able to decide whether to use more healing or more damage while solo or with friends, you can bet that unless the damage spells are really impressive most parties will be inviting conjurers to equip all their healing abilities.


I guess you could say that one of the nifty things about the whole scenario is that FFXIV isn't using old names for old archetypes that will having people saying, "I want to level <X job> and be just like <favorite FF class/character>!" If you want to be an offensive caster, build your character to be an offensive caster. Tada! No more pigeonholing!
#25 Apr 10 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I see what you're going for there, however making myself an assassin still requires me to use knuckles instead of katanas? :( Want some BA damage dealing katanas! :D


Until katana weapon type has been introduced, yes =P. Once its available though you can just take assassin skills from Pugilist & other classes and apply them to your katana class, so no problemo there. Just have to wait for SE to implement one.

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#26 Apr 10 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Until katana weapon type has been introduced, yes =P. Once its available though you can just take assassin skills from Pugilist & other classes and apply them to your katana class, so no problemo there. Just have to wait for SE to implement one.


What katana class? Are they just gonna hand out the katana class? Or will you have to do something to obtain it? Maybe a job quest? Maybe there are prerequisites that must be fulfilled before being able to flag the quest?

Quote:
I'm led to believe you will have to discover classes by unlocking skills and progressing a certain amount in one or more classes.

I.e.
-A gladiator who has specialized in vit and str and uses a shield and uses the provoke skill often will unlock the paladin spirit. Go talk to npc, complete quest to collect 3 items, unlock paladin class.

-A character who uses pugilist to specialize in thf type attributes(agi,dex,steal) and has thaumaturge who specializes in elemental debuffs unlocks the ninja spirit. Go complete quest and unlock ninja class.


BAM!!
#27 Apr 10 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing about that statement is that it would horribly limit the skills. Sure you could have a beefy gladiator who could cast cure. But what about paladin specific abilities. The difference between a paladin and a war/whm is that a war/whm (assuming war/whm is equivalent to whm/war) learns only war and whm abilities; whereas, a paladin will learn paladin abilities. It's almost an elitest view but a war/whm will never be a paladin.


Eeerrr.
Since when did the spells and abilities list of one specific game determine the definition of an entire archetype?
What we know of Conjurer + Gladiator solve the general interpretation of the word just dandy.


Edited, Apr 10th 2010 4:08pm by Zemzelette
#28 Apr 10 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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What katana class? Are they just gonna hand out the katana class? Or will you have to do something to obtain it? Maybe a job quest? Maybe there are prerequisites that must be fulfilled before being able to flag the quest?


I don't know if they will keep the "advanced" classes around. The starter classes don't seem "basic" in a way that it would make sense to have "advanced" classes though. The classes introduced so far are pretty "advanced" already.

That's why I think there won't be any prerequisite to becoming a katana-user. And since you can pretty much make an assassin out of yourself even without katanas around right from the start, the weapons should be made available from the start too imo.

And let's say if you want to be a katana user with samurai abilities.. how does that work? If only by doing one specific build you can unlock katana-class, it goes against the whole idea of the system in place- flexibility.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 8:10pm by Hyanmen
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#29 Apr 10 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Eeerrr.
Since when did the spells and abilities list of one specific game determine the definition of an entire archetype?


Never.

That was a bold statement.

Because of the lack of knowledge that I have of this games job mechanics I'm forced to make statements that have limited views based on the knowledge that I have gained previously.

That being said, a gladiator will always be a gladiator. A gladiator/DoM will be a gladiator that can cast spells. Even though my gladiator has some abilities and stats that make me look like a defender class, I dont learn defender specific skills. But the defender/gladiator who is using my gladiator skills is doing a really good job using his defender skills and magic that are inherent to his class.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 4:13pm by aurormnk
#30 Apr 10 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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That being said, a gladiator will always be a gladiator


Gladiator will be Gladiator only in the name, nothing else. The name itself doesn't matter much, only what you do.

The Japanese version conveys this better than the English version. You are a "Sword-User", but that doesn't say anything about what you do; that's up to you to decide.

Gladiator by the core means "Sword-User" as well, but it can be confusing because it makes it sound like it's an actual predetermined class, which it's not.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 8:16pm by Hyanmen
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#31 Apr 10 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Basic and Advanced jobs in ffxi were just names, was dark knight sooo much more advanced than thf? These classes don't seem all that advanced to me in that sense. I'm sure that playing thaumaturge will be as complex as conjurer.

But in the vein of basic and advanced jobs. Once a character played a "basic" job to 30, they were unable to unlock all of the advanced jobs (not sure if there were level requirements on cor/sch/blu/pup. Did anyone ever try to unlock these at lvl 30?).

Quote:
And let's say if you want to be a katana user with samurai abilities.. how does that work? If only by doing one specific build you can unlock katana-class, it goes against the whole idea of the system in place- flexibility.


Why couldn't someone unlock the katana class like I had said and also lock a samurai class combining to other jobs then play katana/samurai just like you want to play gladiator/conjurer?
#32 Apr 10 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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There's a whole lot of Thieves whose hearts you just broke :p

Seriously, though. People are going to see a Defending-type Gladiator with Healing spells whose intention is to tank and the word that's going to spill from their mouths is "Paladin". That's because the person who constructed the job, is suiting the abilities to this universally recognized archetype. The concept of Paladin came first, this particular iteration of it came second.

A person who stitches the abilities together in a new and unique way is the person who will likely be called something generic like "Archer who can heal". At least until some clever wordsmith comes up with a naming convention for such combination, and then we'll be calling it that term. Because god knows if we have to type things in between every little action, we sure as heck aren't going to spend more than 3 letters on it.
#33 Apr 10 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
TheMoreYouKnow wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
So no, no "pure healer" like the way you're thinking. Conjurer can still be made into one, which is the point of the whole system.

I fear this will lead to even worse pigeonholing than in XI when it comes to parties. If you get all the spells automatically by leveling your conjurer skill, then you have all of the healing spells even if all you want to do is cast damaging magic and vice-versa. While you may be able to decide whether to use more healing or more damage while solo or with friends, you can bet that unless the damage spells are really impressive most parties will be inviting conjurers to equip all their healing abilities.


I guess you could say that one of the nifty things about the whole scenario is that FFXIV isn't using old names for old archetypes that will having people saying, "I want to level <X job> and be just like <favorite FF class/character>!" If you want to be an offensive caster, build your character to be an offensive caster. Tada! No more pigeonholing!
What I mean is that you won't be able to build your character to be an offensive caster if you're automatically gaining all the healing abilities alongside it. You can play the majority of the game by yourself casting only damage spells, but if your skill gives you access to healing spells as well without any input on your part you can bet you'll be asked to do that the most often for parties.

Now if you have to choose between certain abilities within a class at certain points (permanently, not just every time you go to set spells to your action bar), or the search system is robust enough to advertise yourself as something more specific than what your class shows you to be, those are things that could help matters. But the issue I see here is that people will see a conjurer and think "oh, they can heal us" and by the same token when they search for damage dealers they might pass up conjurers since the image of "healer" is attached to the class for them. Consider how the priest class is treated in WoW.

aurormnk wrote:
Basic and Advanced jobs in ffxi were just names, was dark knight sooo much more advanced than thf?

They weren't names that SE used, either. Officially they are "standard" and "extra" jobs, not basic/advanced. That comes from the Brady guide or English-speaking players or something, not from the game itself.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 1:25pm by TheMoreYouKnow
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#34 Apr 10 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Gladiator by the core means "Sword-User" as well, but it can be confusing because it makes it sound like it's an actual predetermined class, which it's not.


Maybe that's what they are calling it in Japanese but that is not what it means. What I meant by a gladiator will always be a gladiator is that a gladiator will only learn skills and grow in attributes that are defined by SE.

To me, gladiator looks like an all around melee job. So I assume DEX/STR/VIT/AGI will grow in similar patterns to each other. A defender type class would probably grow with a larger emphasis on VIT and STR. Assume that you only have so many points to use before you max out. If your goal was to be a defender then you would most likely forego the DEX and AGI stats for more STR and VIT. Your gladiator may have equal priority on all the melee oriented stats and that would be bad for you.
#35 Apr 10 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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What I mean is that you won't be able to build your character to be an offensive caster if you're automatically gaining all the healing abilities alongside it. You can play the majority of the game by yourself casting only damage spells, but if your skill gives you access to healing spells as well without any input on your part you can bet you'll be asked to do that the most often for parties.


But why does that matter? Just stack on INT and be an offensive caster, and put it on your search comment that you're a Nuker, not a Healer. That way you'll be treated like a BLM, not a WHM. There's no pigeon holing.

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Maybe that's what they are calling it in Japanese but that is not what it means. What I meant by a gladiator will always be a gladiator is that a gladiator will only learn skills and grow in attributes that are defined by SE.

To me, gladiator looks like an all around melee job. So I assume DEX/STR/VIT/AGI will grow in similar patterns to each other. A defender type class would probably grow with a larger emphasis on VIT and STR. Assume that you only have so many points to use before you max out. If your goal was to be a defender then you would most likely forego the DEX and AGI stats for more STR and VIT. Your gladiator may have equal priority on all the melee oriented stats and that would be bad for you.


That is not the case. You choose what attributes raise and what doesn't. Gladiator learns Gladiator abilities but can use skills from other classes 90% Freely without limitations such as what we've seen in XI. That's why even if Gladiator learns Gladiator abilities, it can still use abilities from other classes instead of it's own skills and become a Paladin that way. You don't have to do it the way SE defines the class, which is the whole point of the system.

If you want to be a Defender, put points on STR and VIT (and MP so you can cast spells). Don't put points on DEX and AGI. It's up to you, it's not predetermined.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 8:32pm by Hyanmen
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#36 Apr 10 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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aurormnk wrote:
To me, gladiator looks like an all around melee job. So I assume DEX/STR/VIT/AGI will grow in similar patterns to each other. A defender type class would probably grow with a larger emphasis on VIT and STR. Assume that you only have so many points to use before you max out. If your goal was to be a defender then you would most likely forego the DEX and AGI stats for more STR and VIT. Your gladiator may have equal priority on all the melee oriented stats and that would be bad for you.


Your stats don't "grow" you choose your own stats as your character level progresses.
#37 Apr 10 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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They weren't names that SE used, either. Officially they are "standard" and "extra" jobs, not basic/advanced. That comes from the Brady guide or English-speaking players or something, not from the game itself.


This further proves my point. I think thf can be very complex and so can drk...to be fair...but as you said, it's not basic and advanced, its standard and extra.

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The concept of Paladin came first, this particular iteration of it came second.


Let's say that there are two characters. One playing war/whm and the other playing pld/war. Both deal and take damage fairly equally in this situation. While the war would learn skills like aggressor and berserk, the paladin would learn skills like sentinel and spells like Reprisal.

The good thing about the gladiator is that instead of taking a conjurer "subclass" it could take a Thaumaturge "subclass" which, if it did learn skills like sentinel, would be more useless because the character would be going for a drk type of class.
#38 Apr 10 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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The good thing about the gladiator is that instead of taking a conjurer "subclass" it could take a Thaumaturge "subclass" which, if it did learn skills like sentinel, would be more useless because the character would be going for a drk type of class.


Then you take abilities from Lancer and Marauder that are like that of a DRK's and use them instead of your Gladiator native skills. You don't have to equip sentinel, if that's not the way you want to play Gladiator.
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#39 Apr 10 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Gladiator learns Gladiator abilities but can use skills from other classes 90% Freely without limitations such as what we've seen in XI.


So a gladiator can use conjurer spells and abilities 90% as effective as a conjurer? That's what your telling me? First, where did you get this from? Just because you can use an ability doesnt mean it's just as effective as it is on the regular job. Provoke is a good example of what your saying but sublimation isnt 100% when subbed.

Also, why even have classes if you can just allot stats willyfreakingnilly. Are you kidding? Yes there will be some customization as far as your stats go but I don't think SE is gonna give the player 0 in all stats and 10pts each level to do with as they please. Would kind of eliminate any need for a class.

Edit: that post was more of an attack than I wanted it to be. Please forgive.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 4:43pm by aurormnk
#40 Apr 10 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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So a gladiator can use conjurer spells and abilities 90% as effective as a conjurer? That's what your telling me? First, where did you get this from? Just because you can use an ability doesnt mean it's just as effective as it is on the regular job. Provoke is a good example of what your saying but sublimation isnt 100% when subbed.


Like I said, it's nowhere near as limiting as subjobs are. SE wanted to make something much more flexible than what the SJ system offered, and this is the result.

It'd be like WHM cure vs. PLD cure. Not something like WAR/WHM cure vs. WHM cure. Also since you can equip almost every skill and spell, you're not stuck to cure 2 like WAR/WHM is. You can go up to cure IV just like PLD.

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Also, why even have classes if you can just allot stats willyfreakingnilly. Are you kidding? Yes there will be some customization as far as your stats go but I don't think SE is gonna give the player 0 in all stats and 10pts each level to do with as they please. Would kind of eliminate any need for a class.


Because SE wanted to retain some similarity to XI, or people would go all "waah too different from XI, I don't like!".

The classes are pretty much aesthetical, although you can't do everything you want. A lot more than in XI, however. What you can't do comes down to balancing issues, not that they wouldn't let you if it didn't cause any balance problems.

That's why Japanese classes are named so neutrally (English ones too, though). It's as close as you can get to classless system without actually removing classes.
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#41 Apr 10 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Default
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It's not so much about being butthurt cause 14 isnt like 11 as it is being "like" a pld and being a pld. One thing that made 11 so diverse and unique was the 20 jobs that it had, each had its own set of abilities and play styles. Something that will be hard to do with 7 fighting classes. Is it too much to ask a game that hasnt been released to do something that a game that's been out for ~8 years to do if they are made by the same developer?
#42 Apr 10 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Well aren't we feeling overly dramatic.

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So a gladiator can use conjurer spells and abilities 90% as effective as a conjurer? That's what your telling me?

That's exactly what we're telling you. It could even possibly be 100% if said gladiator puts his focus and points allocation into a specific spell such as 'Cure'. As I understand it from interviews, each skill levels individually and you can continue to level it on a job it's not originally from.

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First, where did you get this from? Just because you can use an ability doesnt mean it's just as effective as it is on the regular job. Provoke is a good example of what your saying but sublimation isnt 100% when subbed.

Well, I think we need to stop drawing parallels with FFXI for a start, because the system is -absolutely nothing like subjobs- and better for it. Various information suggests that you allot the stats you want, so therefore investing in said stats that enhance the type of ability you have an interest in is likely to improve its power, right?

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Also, why even have classes if you can just allot stats willyfreakingnilly. Are you kidding? Yes there will be some customization as far as your stats go but I don't think SE is gonna give the player 0 in all stats and 10pts each level to do with as they please. Would kind of eliminate any need for a class.

That's exactly what they're doing, and I'm not sure where the idea that it could eliminate the classes comes from, especially as -unlike FFXI- there are no classes in the conventional sense (aka Jobs). The 'classes' that SE now wants to call them are different roles CLASSED by their weapon. These weapons grant abilities, nothing more.

On a side note, I wonder if Archers can use abilities like blindside from a distance? Could be pretty pimp burst damsge if so!

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It's not so much about being butthurt cause 14 isnt like 11 as it is being "like" a pld and being a pld. One thing that made 11 so diverse and unique was the 20 jobs that it had, each had its own set of abilities and play styles. Something that will be hard to do with 7 fighting classes. Is it too much to ask a game that hasnt been released to do something that a game that's been out for ~8 years to do if they are made by the same developer?


Sorry but I find it absurd to suggest that this new system isnt as diverse as FFXI. 11 had a horrendously limiting method of 'choice', where support jobs were necessities lined up to fit with certain other classes. The game's still in alpha and it's likely more classes will be released, and surely the point is that you can mix and match abilities as you want, rather than each job having x amount? Also, how can you say that the 10ish abilities each job had and the 5 (tops) that each made use of (excluding mages) at any given time is a more diverse system than each fighter class being given 20+ abilities in FFXIV (Although perhaps it may seem like less if you're just looking at the official site...as you should.)
I honestly can't see how FFXI is in any way a more advanced system and have no idea what it's 'doing' that FFXIV isn't.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 5:14pm by Dlaqev
#43 Apr 10 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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One thing that made 11 so diverse and unique was the 20 jobs that it had, each had its own set of abilities and play styles. Something that will be hard to do with 7 fighting classes


And now it's 7 classes, each with more than one playstyle by default and double the abilities, not to mention all the possiblities when you mix and match skills. (There will be more to come before the beta ends, too).

Like being a DRK using Lance, or a PLD using Great Axe. It's already multiple times more diverse than what XI ever was.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 9:22pm by Hyanmen
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#44 Apr 10 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Your saying,
1. Combination of the current 7 classes is enough for limitless possibilities
2. Stats are completely defined by player..irregardless of class
3. The skills that SE has currently and may add in the future on the seven classes or possibly others are varied enough to create more varied classes

If, going with what yall are saying is true, then why introduce new classes? We have all that we need already.

If it is false, what new classes will be introduced and why will they be introduced?

I'm not saying that ffxiv is inferior in any way to ffxi, i'm saying lawless character building and limited classes (which are determined by weapon? thats pretty limiting in and of itself) is inferior. Multiple classes, multiple paths of growth, customization not creation, are what would make IV superior.
#45 Apr 10 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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1. Combination of the current 7 classes is enough for limitless possibilities


There's room for more obviously, but there's still lots of possibilities with these 7.

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2. Stats are completely defined by player..irregardless of class


Yes.

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3. The skills that SE has currently and may add in the future on the seven classes or possibly others are varied enough to create more varied classes


Yes.

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If, going with what yall are saying is true, then why introduce new classes? We have all that we need already.


We have what we need indeed, the rest is just fan service. But so were a lot of XI's jobs too. There wasn't a -need- for BLU, COR, PUP, DRG and so on. Only one job for each archetype would have sufficed. But SE still added those jobs, and same will happen with XIV, regardless of if we have what we need already.

Quote:
I'm not saying that ffxiv is inferior in any way to ffxi, i'm saying lawless character building and limited classes (which are determined by weapon? thats pretty limiting in and of itself) is inferior. Multiple classes, multiple paths of growth, customization not creation, are what would make IV superior.


What makes you think the classes are limited? They are not.
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#46 Apr 10 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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If, going with what yall are saying is true, then why introduce new classes? We have all that we need already.


Sort of a null-point this one, yes there is enough available to fill all roles (aside from the bard-type support role as of now I think?). But why stop for that reason? Game add new classes for more variety and fun, simply because a large range of skills are available doesnt mean they can't add more.
#47 Apr 10 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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Let's say that there are two characters. One playing war/whm and the other playing pld/war. Both deal and take damage fairly equally in this situation. While the war would learn skills like aggressor and berserk, the paladin would learn skills like sentinel and spells like Reprisal.



If (say) Gladiator did learn Sentinel, Cover, Rampart and Shield Bash. Does that fix the issue?

Quote:

I'm not saying that ffxiv is inferior in any way to ffxi, i'm saying lawless character building and limited classes (which are determined by weapon? thats pretty limiting in and of itself) is inferior. Multiple classes, multiple paths of growth, customization not creation, are what would make IV superior.


There are laws. Generally in a system like this there are 'x' number of slots to fill, they've said certain abilities are off limits due to potentially gamebreaking combos, not the to mention the hybrid tax which is always present (though I imagine to a much more forgiving degree).

So let's go ahead and say you can construct a paladin the likes of which you are familiar with from XI. Your telling me from looking at all the abilities listed on the official site there isn't one you might see the appeal in taking?


Edited, Apr 10th 2010 7:12pm by Zemzelette
#48 Apr 10 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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We have what we need indeed, the rest is just fan service. But so were a lot of XI's jobs too. There wasn't a -need- for BLU, COR, PUP, DRG and so on. Only one job for each archetype would have sufficed. But SE still added those jobs, and same will happen with XIV, regardless of if we have what we need already.


I beg to differ! There was an intense absolute NEED for DRG. Same as there is now. When I "master" the Lancer class, I need to graduate to Dragon Knight and get a pet wyvern by my side.

Sigh, sorry. Sometimes those outbursts get the better of me.
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#49 Apr 10 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Its ok I understand completely. I NEED to have a fast-attacking, dual-wielding, katana class. LOL
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#50 Apr 10 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly something I would love to toy with even just for solo fun, maybe slight party use against elemental weak mobs would be a mnk (pug) very high haste build with some form of en- spells. For example thunder weak mob getting pounded very quickly, decently hard by thunder based strikes. Only problem I really see would be subbing INT for STR/DEX to make ele hits do more but also allow access to all elements for strikes.
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#51 Apr 10 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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One thing that springs to mind is I hope that someone who gears towards a "Paladin" class as a tank can perform that role with the ability to have an AoE provoke, since there seems to be a lot of talk of group mobs.

And if there is a Ninja type role, they cannot tank against multiple mobs.


Sorry to go on about stuff that has probably been chewed up many times before. But I'd love to see the main tank job actually be the main tank job. It may have been efficient but ninja tanking always struck me as wrong.

Bring back the Paladin!
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