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Create your own Class! (Possible?)Follow

#52 Apr 10 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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As efficient as a nin is they are only as good as the ability to keep Utsusemi up, once that falls evasion doesnt help much vs IT mobs.. that is where you need the VIT/HP of a PLD plus the much better enmity mitigation abilities, I leveled NIN for 2 things, solo and subjob, PLD was and forever will be the best tank FFXI had to offer.
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#53 Apr 10 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly something I would love to toy with even just for solo fun, maybe slight party use against elemental weak mobs would be a mnk (pug) very high haste build with some form of en- spells. For example thunder weak mob getting pounded very quickly, decently hard by thunder based strikes. Only problem I really see would be subbing INT for STR/DEX to make ele hits do more but also allow access to all elements for strikes.


I don't want to crush your creative spirit, and it's good that your thinking outside the box. But, I think you may be making a bit too many assumptions based on your time in XI. I don't mean to pick on you, alot of people are doing that. But the sooner you cast these specifics from your mind, the easier it will be to adapt and conquer the new system :)
#54 Apr 10 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly something I would love to toy with even just for solo fun, maybe slight party use against elemental weak mobs would be a mnk (pug) very high haste build with some form of en- spells. For example thunder weak mob getting pounded very quickly, decently hard by thunder based strikes. Only problem I really see would be subbing INT for STR/DEX to make ele hits do more but also allow access to all elements for strikes.
I don't want to crush your creative spirit, and it's good that your thinking outside the box. But, I think you may be making a bit too many assumptions based on your time in XI. I don't mean to pick on you, alot of people are doing that. But the sooner you cast these specifics from your mind, the easier it will be to adapt and conquer the new system :)



I know its just a big ol "pipe dream" but I just think some way to impliment that would be pretty cool
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#55 Apr 10 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if a bard like class is in store for disciple of magic or if people will have to mix thaumaturge with something else maybe. It will be interesting to see what combo's are made. Hopefully there isn't a "This is the ONLY good combo or you stink" attitude or otherwise people might be turned off by partying because they won't get to express their creativity. Here's to creativity!!!
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#56 Apr 10 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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One thing that springs to mind is I hope that someone who gears towards a "Paladin" class as a tank can perform that role with the ability to have an AoE provoke, since there seems to be a lot of talk of group mobs.

And if there is a Ninja type role, they cannot tank against multiple mobs.


I think (and hope) that you'll find FFXIV combat a bit more complex then "Tank taunts mobs while healer heals tank and dps kill things" From the looks of things each melee class has some form of tanking ability. Obviously Gladiator will be better at it then the others. It won't be like WoW or FFXI where a mob will kill non tanks in a one or two hits but more so that you'll have different melee classes working together to keep the squishy classes from dying and if a Melee is getting hit there will be an option to be more defensive (Pug has a stance shift to dodge more attacks)

That way the flow of battle will be far more interesting and engaging for everyone (especially melee dps, FFXI was a bit boring for melee at the beginning until you unlocked abilities like sneak attack and started to really use WS to your advantage) I imagine different mobs will have different tactics that you need to use in order to defeat them (seems to be common theme in FF these days)
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#57 Apr 10 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The FF14 system reminds me of the FF9 system. In FF9 you would use weapons to gain abilities and in FF14 the weapon you equip determines which class you are and what abilities you gain. The difference lies in that the abilities in FF9 that were learned were rather generic (i.e bug killer) whereas in FF14 the abilities are more class orientated (think Steiner Sword arts, Zidane thief skills etc). Once an ability is learned you can equip it on w/e class you are on (with a few restrictions).

I dunno that's just me, my mind thinks in weird ways.









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#58 Apr 10 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder what will be the specifications on what you can put on another class and cant. Since I'm assuming that you can't put weapon skills on another classes weapon, that sort of makes it so no other class can use cure other then Conjurer.

Though, even if that's the case, most of the classes have an ability to give them HP back from attacking, and you'd probably be able to stick those abilities on other classes.
#59 Apr 10 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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Though, even if that's the case, most of the classes have an ability to give them HP back from attacking, and you'd probably be able to stick those abilities on other classes.

It would be pretty great if you could take all the attacks that give you back HP and put them onto whatever class you play. You'd have a brand-new class... "soloist" lol
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#60 Apr 10 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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You have the Pugilist ability 'Chakra', the Marauder ability 'Bloodbath', Lancers 'Life Surge', and the Gladiator's 'Aegis Boon'.

Even just taking Bloodbath and putting it on a Gladiator you'd be gaining back HP while you attack and defend. If you can put Life Surge in with that you'll also being gaining HP as you attack while lowering the Mob's evasion. Seems like plenty of abilities to get your HP back.
#61 Apr 11 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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The one thing to me that I feel like not a lot of people on this thread are putting together is the fact that once they add in "katana" or "broadsword" or whatever they choose to add in. Weapons are class specific. So you cant just add them to whatever class you have currently it will change your class completely you'll be a new class that would be based around the weapon your using such as a SAM. So to create SAM from the classes already available i agree with what one guy was saying about you cant make a paladin with gladiator and white mage. There most likely will be specific skills that "make" a paladin if they choose to add in that class with the weapon when they add it in. Sure you can mix an match abilities but your not going to come up with "advanced" jobs as of what people were talking about because your missing the specific class skills.
#62 Apr 11 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if a bard like class is in store for disciple of magic or if people will have to mix thaumaturge with something else maybe.


There's no class with buffing spells right now, so count on it.

(Hint: It might be Arcanist).

Quote:
The one thing to me that I feel like not a lot of people on this thread are putting together is the fact that once they add in "katana" or "broadsword" or whatever they choose to add in. Weapons are class specific. So you cant just add them to whatever class you have currently it will change your class completely you'll be a new class that would be based around the weapon your using such as a SAM. So to create SAM from the classes already available i agree with what one guy was saying about you cant make a paladin with gladiator and white mage. There most likely will be specific skills that "make" a paladin if they choose to add in that class with the weapon when they add it in. Sure you can mix an match abilities but your not going to come up with "advanced" jobs as of what people were talking about because your missing the specific class skills.


It doesn't work that way. Even if you change your weapon, you can still put skills from different weapon types to it. All the specific skills are there, you just have to mix and match them to create a real Paladin type class.

The specific class skills are available, maybe spread between more than few classes, but they're there (and more will be added later of course). You just have to pick the weapon type you like best, and take all those skills and use them on that weapon. Then you're PLD, DRK, SAM, whatever.

The new weapon types when introduced will give us more skills to work with obviously, but you can switch them around too and make new combinations out of them. You can be h2h using Ninja or lance using Paladin, nothing's stopping you.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 9:18am by Hyanmen
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#63 Apr 11 2010 at 5:26 AM Rating: Decent
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The more I think about how this system will work, and how I think SE would want it to work, the more I think I like it, and the more it appeals to casual gamers.

I'm thinking more and more we'll be able to swap classes on the fly without any cost or penalties. I think back about people complaining about classes in FFXI and how they could never find a healer or a tank.
Say you're in a party in FFXIV and your healer bails. Just get a DD to swap to healer and invite another DD to the party. I'm assuming more people will have healer levelled in this game. Or healing skills at least.

Each discipline could have 1, 2, or more preset skill allocations that you've made, so at the click of a macro you can swap weapons, and go from Conjurer to Alchemist and have your stats allocated properly for your profession. (weapon you have equipped) If you were making this game, wouldn't you have this in place as to not be a constant burden to people. I doubt their intant is to annoy us with constant manual skill point re-allocations.

My only small concern or possible complaint is that we only have to level up Physical Level once, and the rest of the game is just weapon skill ups for your class.
I can see once you're at physical level cap (50 I think), you can just level up all your various weapons and be maxed in every class. Weapon skillups didn't really take very long in FFXI if you knew what you were doing. So unless it takes a LOT longer to skill up weapons in 14, someone could technically be max level and have all weapons skilled up in a few months, therefore having all job combinations at max within a few months. I personally want the game to take a LONG time to reach cap, and I really hope physical levels are dropped to level 1 for each weapon you equip until you physically level that weapon, as well as skill levelling it. But that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Perhaps maybe when switching from disciplines your physical level changes. I'd like to see more info on this.

I don't see costs or time penalties associated when switching classes, that could get really expensive. There were times in FFXI when I would switch jobs dozens of times per day. I doubt people want to spend all their hard-earned money on constant class swapping.
#64 Apr 11 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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- Regarding character customization, will there be any limitations on attaching skills from one Class onto another?

Komoto: If we can, we want to allow players to use skills from other Classes on their current one. However, there are many things to test out regarding this, such as how the effects of skills will be weakened when used with other Classes. For example, maybe a certain combination of skills doesn't work well together, or perhaps another combination is too powerful -- we want to maintain game balance as we go forward. There will, of course, also be some skills that we simply won't allow to be attached to other Classes. At this stage, we are still looking to see how things work, so feel free to try out any combinations you wish.

- With FFXI and Support Jobs, there was a limitation, and in general you wanted users to play Jobs a certain way, which made it easy for other players to pick up on what that Job's role was. If you can freely set abilities on different Classes and freely boost your parameters, will that make it difficult for players to define roles for Classes?

Komoto: That's why we feel it is most important to have Classes defined by their main skills. Although there is wiggle room for adding other abilities, a Class that excels at tanking will usually be considered a tank first and foremost. From that starting point, you can begin to fine-tune your role based on the situation and see how your Class works with other Classes.


Hmmmm, interesting.

http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/162510.jpg

I wonder why there are two rows of numbers next to each stat
#65 Apr 11 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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One thing i see here is that everyone seems so tunnel visioned on alot of FFXI as if its going to relate over to or influence XIV 100%.

For example Sony made a very successful MMORPG on the PS2, EQOA. It had basic classes. Within each class you had 2 ways to apply your experience, you could apply anywhere from 1%-100% to class mastery or your leveling. Each player could use the mastery points to buy specialized abilites/spells and could have 4+ options per class to master in.

•Alchemist
•Bard
•Cleric
•Druid
•Enchanter
•Magician
•Monk
•Necromancer
•Paladin
•Ranger
•Rogue
•Shadowknight
•Shaman
•Warrior
•Wizard

Each class listed had 4+ Master classes to chose frome, once you chose a master class it changes your TAG as it was called (when you looked at a player in game you saw there name,level,class or master class if they had one, and guild they belonged to) for exaple a cleric would have 4 options as a master class, once you chose a master clas you unlocked 2 master class abilities. Here is a link to see the avaliable master class and class mastery options
http://www.teamjosh.com/eqoa/CM/

as i was using a cleric (healer) for example, you had general option (for all players), class spell/ability options, archtype option (for all healer classes) and racial abilities.

a cleric could pick one of the 2 master classes for a cleric, exorcist or faithful.
if you were an elf you could master class via race in the case of elf it was immortal.
or you could master class in archtype as diviner

each had its own diversity and benifits. and you had a minimum of 4 options per class some classes had more.

Now I am not saying that alot of this will apply to FFXIV, but it may bave some ideaologies or concepts that laterally apply or mesh with the FFXI ideas as well as some ideas they may or may not take from other successful MMORPGS to apply what they feel are good ideas to be refined and apply what they do or do not want to FFXIV.

I am not saying i have any expectations or assumptions, i am simply saying that everyone appears to be making alot of assumptions with references to FFXI as absolutes, and i am personally would like to think with the time/money/expectations comming out of this game, that they may have tried to use some good ideas through out the genre and not just FFXI.
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#66 Apr 11 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Each class listed had 4+ Master classes to chose frome, once you chose a master class it changes your TAG as it was called (when you looked at a player in game you saw there name,level,class or master class if they had one, and guild they belonged to) for exaple a cleric would have 4 options as a master class, once you chose a master clas you unlocked 2 master class abilities.


This sorta.

I believe mix matching the current classes will lead to new classes, those new classes will grow in their own way. There will be lots of customization and stuffs but i think the classes we have now are just the beginning.
#67 Apr 11 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
<edited out> ...Hang on. I'm blind, apparently. I'll come back to this.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 12:15am by CrimsonStatwhore
#68 Apr 11 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't work that way. Even if you change your weapon, you can still put skills from different weapon types to it. All the specific skills are there, you just have to mix and match them to create a real Paladin type class.

The specific class skills are available, maybe spread between more than few classes, but they're there (and more will be added later of course). You just have to pick the weapon type you like best, and take all those skills and use them on that weapon. Then you're PLD, DRK, SAM, whatever.

The new weapon types when introduced will give us more skills to work with obviously, but you can switch them around too and make new combinations out of them. You can be h2h using Ninja or lance using Paladin, nothing's stopping you.


I guess what I'm saying is that heal from cleric and taking some combat skills from a few other classes isn't going to make you a paladin. The stereotypical paladin class for FF(some say not to look at the stereotypes but if theres one thing ive noticed the stereotypes ALWAYS carry through 99.99% of the time the classes are based on the same concept) is that it has lots of holy based different types of PHYSICAL attacks (usually consisiting of things like holy attack to all enemies in a certain width infront of you or in the shape of a cross then another one with just massive burst dmg to one single person infront of you) so having a spell named holy isn't the same. They currently from what i've seen have no holy physical attribute attacks therefor a paladin is not makeable you just get a watered down version of what a paladin almost is.
#69 Apr 11 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Because a lot of FFXI players are likely going to migrate over to XIV; are we going to see the same old attitudes towards classes that we saw in XI? What I mean is are people going to get so hung up on how to play a certain job like they did in XI? If you decide to play one way that others don't necessarily think is the "right" way will people chastise you like they would in XI? I hope this new system allows for a much greater variation in how people will not only play but how they will perceive others.
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#70 Apr 11 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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They currently from what i've seen have no holy physical attribute attacks therefor a paladin is not makeable you just get a watered down version of what a paladin almost is.


I think it's within your best interest to wait until the full flush of spells is publically known.
While there is no holy element. That's not to say there aren't some spells that could (say) appear holy by virtue of non-elementality.
#71 Apr 11 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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You are always going to have people like that. It's just a sad fact of life and, really, SE did the only thing they could to delay that-- they didn't name the classes the same so don't really know what each class is capable of. Sure we can speculate and try to push them into their little cubby holes now, but... we won't really know till we play the game.
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#72 Apr 12 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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I think your being a tad bit condescending. It's not people who push the classes into the cookie cutter shape it's always been SE. In every FF they've ever made they've never attempted to make the classes any different then they've ever been. Ninja has always been a staple for dual-wield Thief always the ability steal. Paladin ALWAYS the holy physical attacks. I wasn't referring to a fact of there being no holy element. I was referring to the fact that taking a "holy" SPELL as in magical attack from a mage type class is not the same as using a elemental affinitied physical attack that does damage based on physical attack power with a calculated percent increase or decrease based on the affinity of the monster hit. Maybe for once they are doing something original perhaps. However i'm willing to bet i'm going to see staple classes (whether named differently or not). I don't think that makes the game bad never said that's a bad thing, but i just see it happening.
#73 Apr 12 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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Excuse me?

People push classes into cookie cutter shapes and roles in EVERY MMO out there. When I played WoW for the limited time I did, people would scoff if you spend your talents in anything that wasn't considered a "proper build" Feral and Balance for Druid were laughed at at the time especially. Maybe they still are. I dunno I don't play it.

DAoC- people would build almost identical cookie cutters for their RVR builds. How dare you not spec PBT on a class that has PBT!

Heck, even in Everquest people would get uptight if you were a cleric and you didn't sit down and heal the whole fight unless you were standing up to heal or get all ***** if you were a chanter and had some extra MP to do a bit of nuking because you were bored.

There are ALWAYS going to be people who think this way. They are usually a small portion of the community, but they are always present.

Edit: An example: I don't think the SE team all sat together and said "All right guys! Summoner! Let's make it a class where they absolutely have to sub WHM and become healers with their massive MP!" SE has stated that they didn't intend for the NIN to become a tank, but the player base made it a tank and they did not see fit to take that away from the class. These are both situations where the PLAYERS decided what the classes were supposed to do, not SE.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 6:48am by shinichoco
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#74 Apr 12 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I think your taking this a little bit too literally. It's not so much just pigeonholing paladin into defender roles, it's about a class that hasn't been named yet, such as paladin, learning class specific abilities, such as holy based physical attacks.

If anything, people are pushing gladiator/conjurer into a paladin type roll because gladiator has this many paladin like physical attributes and conjurer has this many paladin like magical attributes.

How you want to play a class, and how SE meant for that class to be played is a thing of the past. These classes that we will see in XIV are meant to be played how the player wants. But if you play a job like paladin or cleric, your role while on that job is to defend or heal respectively. Do that however you want and if you feel that clubbing the mob instead of healing or voking is the way you wanna play, go for it. But don't be surprised if your sh*tty playing is the reason you solo most of your time in XIV.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 2:55am by aurormnk
#75 Apr 12 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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My point is, is that everyone does seem to try to stereotype everyones build to a class but everyone seems to have such a limited amount of classes and eleviates the subgenres, for example each class easily has 2 subclasses such as

•Alchemist
transmuter
metabolist
•Bard
gypsy
mistrel (or dirge and trubidor)
•Cleric
exorcist
faithful
diviner
•Druid
warden
storm caller
wilding
•Enchanter
spellbinder
animator
coercer
beast master
•Magician
pyromancer
geomancer
aeromancer
hydromancer
•Monk
ninja
sensei
pugalist
•Necromancer
lich
defiler
and of coarse since paladin was mentioned several times, yet no one metions if its a
•Paladin
gardian
crusader
then the evil version
•Shadowknight
deathknight
slayer
•Ranger
hunter
forester
•Rogue
assasin
burglar
•Shaman
elder
mystic
•Warrior
defender
hero
•Wizard
sorcerer
channeler
sage

all i am saying is that there are a slew of build, sub genres that each class build style could fall into that would allow to differentiate concept,abilities, and intentions of the general build styles use.
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#76 Apr 12 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm really trying hard to see what point you were making there, not sure I get it.
I don't see why everyone's getting so caught up in names, we need to leave these stupid predispositions behind. As said countless times, the Gladiator in the japanese version is called "Sword wielder", nothing more. We don't NEED to make a class that is specifically tailored to being a paladin through matching up every stat and spell and having some stupid "holy intent" behind his actions.
The point is, if you want to have a sword and shield user who cures himself, you could. That's not a paladin, in FFXIV, that's a sword-wielder who uses magic.

SE even said they made all the class names intentionally vague to avoid pigeon-holing classes into roles and allow us to experiment, e.g. Conjurer normally means a spirit invoker, it nowhere in that name suggests any particular role and the class has access to various different magic types.
#77 Apr 12 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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This could be interpreted a couple ways but

Quote:
- With FFXI and Support Jobs, there was a limitation, and in general you wanted users to play Jobs a certain way, which made it easy for other players to pick up on what that Job's role was. If you can freely set abilities on different Classes and freely boost your parameters, will that make it difficult for players to define roles for Classes?

Komoto: That's why we feel it is most important to have Classes defined by their main skills. Although there is wiggle room for adding other abilities, a Class that excels at tanking will usually be considered a tank first and foremost. From that starting point, you can begin to fine-tune your role based on the situation and see how your Class works with other Classes.


I think that's pretty clear. They did say usually and they didn't say that class was paladin or gladiator or w/e, but they do ly that one class is better at tanking than others. And they expect that class to tank...most of the time.
#78 Apr 12 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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I think your taking this a little bit too literally. It's not so much just pigeonholing paladin into defender roles, it's about a class that hasn't been named yet, such as paladin, learning class specific abilities, such as holy based physical attacks.

If anything, people are pushing gladiator/conjurer into a paladin type roll because gladiator has this many paladin like physical attributes and conjurer has this many paladin like magical attributes.


Not sure if you are referring to me, but thank you for proving my point right there. The problem is a gladiator with some conjurer abilities could just as easily be a Dark Knight in the more traditional sense of a knight (heavy armor, sword and board) than say if you were to use Marauder abilities with Conjurer abilities. Then, of course, you could also mix in some Thaum abilities as well.

I knew a friend who tanked XP groups as RDM/WAR. He was good at it too, but a lot of people still scoffed at the idea because "ZOMG IT'S NOT OPTIMAL!!111!!oneone!" But he could take a party to chain 5 XP just fine till he needed a bit of rest.

Generally speaking: (not aimed at anyone)

As for the other MMOs/Classes, as a cleric in EQ my job first and foremost is to keep my party alive not heal your sorry ***. There is a difference. Healing your sorry *** when it doesn't need a heal is a waste of MP. Casting a stun spell to keep a mob caster from casting a wicked spell on my party keeps my party alive by 1) reducing the damage we are going to take and 2) giving the chanter/CC some time to mez the mob again. If I have MP and my party does not need healing or buffing and you bring an undead mob, sure. I may toss my undead DoT on it. It's not UB4R damage, but it will make the fight go a little faster and it doesn't put my party in danger.

Sure, there are plenty of dumb players that will play for themselves and not the party, but there are also plenty of dumb players who scoff at players who are actually thinking and helping their party outside of the traditional "box" role people pack them into.

Think about leveling a Conjurer in FFXIV for a minute. As far as we know, Conjurer is the only class that has the ability to heal other classes, with the possible exception of some health stealing from the Thaum. Most of the Direct Damage melee classes do, however, seem to have an ability to recover HP. So will all conjurers be forced to abandon their nuking side so that people can have a healer in the party? That is a role the players will enforce on them, not a role that SE has dictated. And perhaps not everyone will try that, but there are sure to be people in the game who will think that and just be a$$hats about it. That's all I am saying here not trying to label people, I just want to get the thought out there that sometimes, you don't HAVE to pack something in a box and give it a name and perhaps it's better that we don't here-- especially before the game begins.
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#79 Apr 12 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't see why everyone's getting so caught up in names, we need to leave these stupid predispositions behind. As said countless times, the Gladiator in the japanese version is called "Sword wielder", nothing more. We don't NEED to make a class that is specifically tailored to being a paladin through matching up every stat and spell and having some stupid "holy intent" behind his actions.
The point is, if you want to have a sword and shield user who cures himself, you could. That's not a paladin, in FFXIV, that's a sword-wielder who uses magic.

SE even said they made all the class names intentionally vague to avoid pigeon-holing classes into roles and allow us to experiment, e.g. Conjurer normally means a spirit invoker, it nowhere in that name suggests any particular role and the class has access to various different magic types.


I think that kind of compromises the two ideas me an shini have. I think I like that the best it's not a paladin but it does let you heal and fight at the same time. The only extra point i was trying to make is that i wouldn't be surprised if they literally came out with the classes people we're trying to make. Not to say they'll have the same name as everyone's used to but they might get thrown in there. I wasn't pushing to try to call everyone out on these rolls I was one of those in WoW who played the more gimped Balance Druid. (2003-2004)

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 12:58pm by Kingdestiny
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