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So, Gil..Follow

#1 Apr 11 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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This has been on my mind lately. With their emphasis on making the game more accessible to casual players and solo players it makes me wonder how they will be handling gil in XIV.

I know for some of you making gil was never an issue. But for many it was the hardest part of the game, I can't imagine how bad it was for people who played even less often than I did. Earning gil was so difficult it forced many players to quit and was the reason RMT was so bad in XI.

Now I'm not advocating a system where everyone has a billion gil but I do hope for a system that doesn't force so many people to turn to RMT just to get by in game. So what's your take? Do you think they will make it easier to earn gil? Do you think they should?

Thoughts?
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#2 Apr 11 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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What I would like to see is to get the gear you need to solo or to get the basic gear you need to progress in parties that enough gil drops within your normal experience gaining fights.

However, if you want to get the best gear to excel at your job, a bit of gil making if required on the side.


I actually used to enjoy taking time to make gil by killing mobs for drops to sell etc for a few hours. I wouldn't like to be able to buy everything I want without taking the time to earn gil to buy it.

A lot of my relaxing, solo time in FFXI was spent farming items for gil. I don't want to lose that and get everything easy. The reward of earning the gil to get that item you really want is one of the reasons I love MMO's.

But for the casual player, I can see this being a drawback. So having enough gil to buy the basics is a must.

Oh and I'd like to see quests giving more gil than in FFXI so doing quests for gil will actually be worth it.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 8:12pm by scotchio

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 8:14pm by scotchio
#3 Apr 11 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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You do realize that if everyone has a billion gil then all of the prices will just be $10,000,000,000 instead of 10,000 right?
#4 Apr 11 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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The system is usually only slightly at fault. RMT, Gil/Gold selling happens in all sorts of games. When you have people willing to buy something, there will always arise someone to sell something. When the items become so valuable that demand spikes, then gold is farmed and dumped into the economy to meet these requirements. Now when gold never permanently leaves the economy (training skills, unlocking training, repairs, upkeep, etc) inflation occurs. When these two things happen at once, you get the problem that was apparent in FFXI.

FF14, however, might be slightly different. They have mentioned that the repairing of equipment will be necessary. That takes some money out of the economy. I would imagine gil, or some purchasable item that costs gil, will be used in some way to function the teleporters. All of these small expenditures are necessary to reduce inflation and keep the market stable.

I think I heard somewhere that they are removing auction house functionality and requiring player to player trades via the bazaar. This will end up in the creation of an online auction house either on a forum somewhere, or perhaps a dedicated site because necessity breeds innovation.

Edit: Another example I forgot. A long time ago, not sure if this is still current, but when I played Asheron's Call, the currency devalued to a point that the trading of materials replaced the trading for money. This is also present in DDO. Ultimately for a trade to occur, both sides need to have something of value, and if gold (or gil) devalues or inflates to the extreme levels we saw in FFXI, DDO, and AC, then we are in for a rough ride.



Edited, Apr 11th 2010 8:26pm by desmar
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#5 Apr 11 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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I believe if SE finds a way to manage the problem of inflation and makes gil just a bit easier to earn then they will have found a very great balance and will have set the stage for a smoother economy. Ofcourse I understand this will all be heavily influenced by us the players, but gil is a very important subject to me. Right now though is all just speculation like a lot of the topics on here.

I did have a thought though. I know one of the huge factors in making gil was crafting which is something I never got much in to in XI and is probably the reason for my gil troubles, but I also know it's because crafting was not at ALL casual friendly. It wasn't even average player friendly if you ask me.

Now with XIV it's very clear they've made crafting 100% more accessible. They can't even really be called crafts anymore, they're more on par with XI jobs. Now that I think about it this will probably address the issue of gil with great success. Ideally every player in XIV will have a job and therefore a source of income.
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#6 Apr 11 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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More inventory slots will make gil-making much much easier.
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#7 Apr 11 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope it's a lot better than in FFXI. Part of the RMT problem was there was such a huge market for it in FFXI. Making gil took waaaaay too long, and you had to keep stopping to do it every few levels. Honestly, looking back on it I can't really fault people for buying it, it was just a huge timesink.
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#8 Apr 11 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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Crafting materials need to be easy to obtain and good gear needs to be easy to craft so that enough of it can be made and distributed to all players. Stuff like silk thread took way too long to farm in FFXI.
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#9 Apr 11 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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TauuOfSiren wrote:
Crafting materials need to be easy to obtain and good gear needs to be easy to craft so that enough of it can be made and distributed to all players. Stuff like silk thread took way too long to farm in FFXI.


I think this will be the case in XIV. But there will still items and such that will be just as difficult to obtain as they were in XI. The solution is to make a wider range of gear available per level. A much wider range. This will result on average players being able to still get above average gear while the hardcore players will be the ones working hard for their gil and getting the gear they deserve. And ofcourse the option will be there for everyone to work hard at getting MASSIVE amounts of gil, I just don't want to work hard and drain excess hours of time (as was the case in XI) just to get the gil I need to barely equip myself for the next lvl / area.

Grinding for experience is one thing. But farming for gil so I can get the gear I'm going to need for the next level so I can get the experience I need to level up so I can farm higher lvl mobs for gil... that's ridiculous.
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#10 Apr 11 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Making gil was difficult indeed and hearing about certain people acquiring pricy items always baffled me. During the beginning of ffxi I noticed most folks had consideration for certain NMs that would drop very useful gear people could use. As time went on that consideration factor vanished as evil people would steal that NM, that you had waited hours to catch, all for the gil made from selling the dropped item. This erked me more then anything. I'm hoping SE has figured out a solution if something similar arises.
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#11 Apr 11 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
I hate to say this, but WoW has done a pretty decent job of solving the issue. What you need is stratified money sinks.

If it costs X for normal character upkeep stuff, X*2 might be the price of a bit better armor so people have to work for it (the company can basically set the price of armor by setting how rare the ingredients are or how rare the recipe is or whatever)

Then you have an X*10 thing that is desirable, not vital, but obtainable. Rich people will just get it, some people have to save for it.


Then you have a X*100 thing that is desirable, absolutely not vital, but a sort of prestige thing. This is your cap sink. People who don't make a lot of money live without it. People who can afford it buy it and take money out of the game.


For most people, they won't be buying the X*100, but the X*100 still works as a great money sink to keep the economy from inflating, keeping prices on X reasonable and money not too hard to work for.

If you don't have an X*100 money sink, prices just keep inflating until they reach a balance were some people have to struggle and some people who make lots just keep the prices high because they don't care about paying it.
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#12 Apr 11 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I hate to say this, but WoW has done a pretty decent job of solving the issue. What you need is stratified money sinks.

If it costs X for normal character upkeep stuff, X*2 might be the price of a bit better armor so people have to work for it (the company can basically set the price of armor by setting how rare the ingredients are or how rare the recipe is or whatever)

Then you have an X*10 thing that is desirable, not vital, but obtainable. Rich people will just get it, some people have to save for it.


Then you have a X*100 thing that is desirable, absolutely not vital, but a sort of prestige thing. This is your cap sink. People who don't make a lot of money live without it. People who can afford it buy it and take money out of the game.


For most people, they won't be buying the X*100, but the X*100 still works as a great money sink to keep the economy from inflating, keeping prices on X reasonable and money not too hard to work for.

If you don't have an X*100 money sink, prices just keep inflating until they reach a balance were some people have to struggle and some people who make lots just keep the prices high because they don't care about paying it.


Hate to admit it but that seems like a solid idea. If SE implements something like this the economy world to world will be better than XIs ever was. And I did read somewhere that SE was taking ideas from the biggest MMOs (how couldn't they) and reworking them for XIV.
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#13 Apr 11 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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I would just say that I had my issues too, until I found ways to capitalize like everyone else did in their own way. The issue with gil is like life, the more time and effort and hard work you put into earning something, they bigger the rewards. I understand that for the casual player, you may not have the best of gear...but then again, can you expect to have the best gear? You have to put in the time to get it. Even if it means you spend the one day a week you have to play, getting that item you need.
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#14 Apr 11 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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BigcountryinTX wrote:
I would just say that I had my issues too, until I found ways to capitalize like everyone else did in their own way. The issue with gil is like life, the more time and effort and hard work you put into earning something, they bigger the rewards. I understand that for the casual player, you may not have the best of gear...but then again, can you expect to have the best gear? You have to put in the time to get it. Even if it means you spend the one day a week you have to play, getting that item you need.


Right. If you want the absolute BEST gear you should have to work for it. But the problem with XI was even the slightly above average gear was stupidly overpriced. The problem there like I said before is there wasn't a large enough range of gear to choose from and not nearly enough people crafting HQ items.

People who work hard in life shouldn't have to work hard in a game aswell just to earn above average gear. No it shouldn't be handed to them either but it should be accessible.
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#15 Apr 12 2010 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I was imagining most of the best gear to be BoC.
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#16 Apr 12 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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What needs to be considered is money in mmos is like money in real life. It isn't controlled by the makers of XIV- it's controlled by us, the players. Things like mass inflation may happen, and general pricing increases or decreases with popularity of items. I once played a game where the price of something may have tripled or been as high as ten times its amount because a game update was about to happen. The economy in that game was awful. No matter what you do, though, gil/money will always be a major part of players and there's no way SE can determine how easy it is to get the items you want. Hopefully there will be more options open as to items themselves, making less of a strain on using just gil to get stuff.
#17 Apr 12 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I have no idea what you are talking about. In FFXI you don't need much gil at all.

Level 1-50 you can get by easy with crystals and other drops you sell on the AH. Mage scrolls are either cheap from vendors/drop from exp mobs or are quested.

How many players have actually done the Warp II quest? Not many since people make a steady income creating mules "farming" it and other quests to sell the scrolls on the AH. If your lazy, well, you have to pay for it.

Even today where everyone has at least 1 level 75 character and could do these quets easy i can still sell all those scrolls 2-3 a week (Warp: 50k ~20min, Warp II: 150k ~1h). And these are just 2 examples.

50+ you get FREE AF armor that is specifically designed for your Job.

70+ You get your, again FREE, Relic armor and before people start shouting, "you can't get Relic in Dynamis before you are 75", I like to remember them that it was designed for level 65+ and it works fine. It's just that now people like to zerg it with 75's.

Even if you decide to level one of the more expensive jobs like Ninja, (which btw. is an advanced jobs and you need another Job at least 20+ or Nation Rank 6), you can still level Woodworking and Alchemy so you can make Shihei in a few days farming/harvesting the materials for no cost if you safed up some crystals.

The problem is and will always be that people are lazy and want the BEST UBER ITEM for any level even if they only use it for 2 levels where it gets replaced again by the next twice as expensive god like item.

KJ
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#18 Apr 12 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
you couldnt be more wrong, yes people had at least 1 75 but that was at the END of the game. what about starting new and getting to that point. even basic gear could run you quite a chunk of change and if you didnt have the absolute best stuff for your level then you didnt have much luck finding a party. the rotation of farming gil to buy gear to level to farm gil to buy gear was really annoying and took away some of the fun of the game.

you mentioned our free artifact and relic gear. if you were full timing this stuff there is something seriously wrong with you. only a few pieces were even remotely good as a quick swap in during a macro.

bottom line is yes you could full time your AF/relic gear but no serious party is going to accept you and you will likely never get into and endgame shell. if all you want to do is mess around with your gimp status and have fun that great, its your character and you can do with it what you want, but dont come around here saying that you didnt need gil or that there was plenty of it in XI because you could never have enough gil and it was really hard to come by for the average player.
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#19 Apr 12 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
KindjalFerrer wrote:

I have no idea what you are talking about. In FFXI you don't need much gil at all.


You're wrong. The community created such high expectations around food, consumables, and gear that people frequently had to take extended time away form leveling just to farm for things they felt they needed based on those general expectations. When you have to stop doing what you want to do for days/weeks/sometimes even months, the game is broken. It has nothing to do with being "lazy" and everything to do with not being entertained.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 10:32am by AureliusSir
#20 Apr 12 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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My buddy got me to play WOW, im almost level 25 so my experience isn't all that great.

But they really did do something right with the high npcable item drop rates, and huge AH space (histories would be nice though, the auctioneer add-on make it much better). Even with less inventory space than FFXI I feel much much less cramped. This would likely change and inventory will become a ***** near the end but I'm hoping I'll only get like level 30-40 before I switch to ffxiv....

#21 Apr 12 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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KindjalFerrer wrote:

I have no idea what you are talking about. In FFXI you don't need much gil at all.

[...]

Even if you decide to level one of the more expensive jobs like Ninja, (which btw. is an advanced jobs and you need another Job at least 20+ or Nation Rank 6), you can still level Woodworking and Alchemy so you can make Shihei in a few days farming/harvesting the materials for no cost if you safed up some crystals.

[...]

KJ


That right there is the problem.

Why do people insist on manually signing their posts? Why not put it in your signature?


RY

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 2:16pm by Redyoshi

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 2:18pm by Redyoshi
#22 Apr 12 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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I've mentioned this a couple times already, but I'll bring it up again. I plan on starting in FFXIV as a Fisherman, in the hopes that it will provide a long-term source of income. I also want to do Culinarian for a couple different reasons. One, I figure it will go hand-in-hand with Fisherman, being able to possibly cook some of what I catch. Two, I'm hoping to be able to trade food to people who can repair my fishing equipment.
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#23 Apr 12 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Default
so long as SE makes the materials for crafting either cheap from an NPC, or easy to farm crafting will be much easier this time around and should provide players with a stable source of income. i think the best way to deal with gear from notoriors monsters to keep the economy from inflating is this, instead of running around a zone hoping that it spawns and you actually get the claim you pay an NPC a certian amount of gil for a key item to make the monster pop. this could vary in price according to the difficulty of the monster and the quality of the item dropped. i realize some people would not like this idea but think about it this way, you can spend all your time running around a zone for a monster that might not even spawn, and then if it does you just wasted all that time if someone else gets the claim. if money is easier to make in this game people would hopefully be ok with paying for a spawn trigger.

in order to prevent ninja lotting on the items, when the item drops it is automatically given to the player who popped the monster. these items should be unable to be sold so that RMT cant take advantage of this system. yes it takes some fun out of the hunt but at the same time it would put a lot of players minds at ease because they dont have to dedicate a whole day to trying to get 1 item.

thats not to say all NM's have to be this way, you could have certain monsters that could randomly spawn in an area that anyone could stumble upon. someone in another thread had an idea that when you kill the monster and the item doesnt drop you get a certain number of points, for example,the item has a 10% drop rate, if you dont get the drop you get 10 points. once you killed it 10 times and still no drop you would have 100 points or 100% chance to get the item, so you go to an NPC and exchange those points for the item, or if you kill the monster again you are guaranteed the drop. again these items should be unsellable so the RMT cant abuse the system.

note: these are my opinions on the matter and should not be taken too seriously.
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#24 Apr 12 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Ralrra wrote:
I've mentioned this a couple times already, but I'll bring it up again. I plan on starting in FFXIV as a Fisherman, in the hopes that it will provide a long-term source of income. I also want to do Culinarian for a couple different reasons. One, I figure it will go hand-in-hand with Fisherman, being able to possibly cook some of what I catch. Two, I'm hoping to be able to trade food to people who can repair my fishing equipment.


Yeah now that I think about it since crafts are going to be so much more accessible in XIV I think that they will be all of our source of decent income. Ofcourse there will still be numerous outside means for those who are going to want the best of the gear but I think crafting will take care of most of my concerns with gil.

I'm hoping Blacksmiths have the ability to repair weapons because that's the one thing I'm most excited for when it comes to Blacksmith. I really hope repairing a weapon isn't NPC only which means it was only added as a feature to be a sink. Sinks are needed too I get that but I'd just like to have control over my weapons durability. Ofcourse I'll also devote time to crafting weapons and I'm hoping to form alliances with other crafters so we can exchange services. Just another way to save gil.
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#25 Apr 13 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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So Redyoshi, you are telling me that investing a few days farming and leveling a craft to enable you to make shihei/silent oils/prism powder for your entire "life" in FFXI is not worth it? Not to mention you could sell them and make some money...

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish and he eats for his entire life"

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#26 Apr 13 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:

...[Free AF]...
The problem is and will always be that people are lazy and want the BEST UBER ITEM for any level even if they only use it for 2 levels where it gets replaced again by the next twice as expensive god like item.


As a warrior, I can tell you that showing up to a party in a full set of my AF would be downright laughable. It's not only that people want some of the better gear, but rather that it is nearly expected. Heck, I have even seen people kicked from parties for not having staple pieces of gear at certain levels.

I agree that "standard" gear needs to be obtainable by your average player, while keeping the more prestige gear obtainable only by those who can sink the time and money into it. Never should the prestige gear become a requirement to be desirable.
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#27 Apr 13 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
KindjalFerrer wrote:

So Redyoshi, you are telling me that investing a few days farming and leveling a craft to enable you to make shihei/silent oils/prism powder for your entire "life" in FFXI is not worth it? Not to mention you could sell them and make some money...

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish and he eats for his entire life"

KJ


I had 100 Alchemy, 60 Woodworking, near 60 goldsmithing (I forget the exact number) and a bunch of other professions skilled up for the purpose of being able to make my own bullets, crossbow bolts, silent oil, etc. and I can tell you straight up that the benefit was largely trivial. When hyper inflation was demolishing my server I made a tidy profit desynthing jewelery from the shop in Jeuno and either selling the ingots or converting them to bullets to sell. Prior to the inflation and after it started to die down, it was six of one, half dozen of the other. The time it took to run around gathering NPC items and farm what NPCs didn't sell in order to "save" gil could have been just as easily been spent farming other items in order to earn gil and buy what I needed.

If you really liked the setup in FFXI, by all means keep playing it. FFXI was about doing what you had to do in order to get ready to do what you wanted to do. FFXIV, directly from the mouths of the devs, will be more about "do what you want to do." You can argue all day long about how great FFXI was for the time sinks and mind numbing repetition but if you think your arguments are going to mystically convert FFXIV into FFXI 2.0, you're in for a major letdown.
#28 Apr 13 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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This is a great thread, with a lot of good ideas. I too found gil to be one of the major drawbacks of FFXI. It was up and down--there's no arguing that working your **** off to get that +1 equipment piece was hugely satisfying--but like others have said, you had to pretty much work your **** off to get anything.

What do you guys think about essentially being able to sell items to the city in which you live. It would basically assume that all of the players are just citizens of a city that is actually bigger and normal, non-adventurer residents as well. So there could be a place in the city where you can offload some items or equipment for prices that are actually reasonable (in FFXI the price for selling an item at the AH was usually obscenely larger than in a shop, often times 100x larger or more, which means selling to shops was completely useless.) This would be a type of sink to remove gil from the game, and would allow people to continue making money even if they are having trouble finding players who are interested.

This is a very basic idea, and would need to be executed in specific ways, but I always felt as though shops in FFXI were a complete waste of time and space, since there was basically no need to ever use them. It might also make the cities feel more like real cities instead of designated spaces in which hundreds of adventurers run around.
#29 Apr 13 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I just hope gil is still obtainable by slaying monsters, because I am not a crafter. Even though RMT ruined many NM camps for some people (I say some people because I usually claimed well vs RMT on the ps2/ps3), I think NMs was still a great concept for obtaining gil for the people that do not enjoy crafting. Things like bcnm and ksnm were also brilliant concepts that reward players with a decent chance to obtain gil without requiring a craft. If the bosses is being done by the guildleve system, this could be just what I am looking for to obtain gil without leveling a craft. I was involved in a sell/split linkshell in FFXi which yielded great profit, and will probably be in such a linkshell in FFXIV as well, since I will be starting the game with a lot of old friends.

I too agree with most of the tings that have already been posted here. The basic gear should not require outside farming, however the very good to best gear should require work (or substitute the word work for effort if you don't like the word work), in order to obtain. I would personally like a system where the good gear would require farming gil, the very good gear would require more effort farming gil (rich people gear), and the best gear would not be able to be brought. This would be so people that simply buy gil, wouldn't have the very best gear, and they would be required to defeat the tough bosses.
#30 Apr 13 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:

So Redyoshi, you are telling me that investing a few days farming and leveling a craft to enable you to make shihei/silent oils/prism powder for your entire "life" in FFXI is not worth it? Not to mention you could sell them and make some money...

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish and he eats for his entire life"

KJ


Making gil off a craft took WAY more than a day. Yes you could make gil in a day, but you could only make the next days worth. So then the NEXT day you have to go out and spend hours and hours again farming or what have you just to make ends meet the next day. And even then you don't have a guaranteed profit as it's all based on current AH trends and the worlds economy.

I know SE can't control the economy, but they can control the ease in which we make gil. Like I said before I don't want my gil just handed to me but I also don't want to have to commit myself to an in game job when I'm paying to play the game. Working and making money to use for paying to do a video game job isn't exactly on the top of my fun ideas list.
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#31 Apr 13 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Its all a matter of perspective. If a game is made more accessible to casual players, then the hardcore players are going to amass huge piles of Gil, Crafting supplies, whatever else there is. This in turn is what throws the scale out of balance. The ones who have the money will spend the money which drives the prices of things up and lets face it, Human nature is in itself greedy so those hardcore players are the ones who set the pricing trends by shelling out the cash for whatever they want, which in turn makes the casual players unable to afford things at all after a time.

The hard part about finding a balance, its nearly impossible. If crafting items drop too much then everything becomes worthless and you wont have to work for anything which seems to be the trend in most mmo's these days. If it does not drop enough, you nearly have to kill yourself to attain what your after. Remember the silken road to poverty in clothcraft back in XI. you could spend 80k for 1 stack of 12 threads..or farm 2 hours and get 12. One other problem I see with some mats is only harvesting jobs can see the nodes. This is going to harshly limit what can be gathered which will drive prices up unless mobs drop items on a much higher basis.

As for paying for ports, this can be taken out of the equation, We all paid for ports back in XI so that's nothing new. The Repair feature on the other hand will take money out of the game but normally its not that much to be a big factor. Unless XIV does something extremely innovative, I'm just not seeing how the game will be truly casual friendly when it comes to the market after a few months.
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#32 Apr 13 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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As usual, I think something in the middle of FFXI and WoW would be ideal.

In FFXI making gil is not only essentially impossible doing anything else (leveling, doing quests/missions, helping others, raising craft skills) but the economy is so player-run that you have to be better than the average person at it to get much of anywhere. Unless you have something beyond the norm in terms of economic sense, farming efficiency, craft skills, etc. you're never going to be able to afford much since other people are the ones selling everything and determining their worth. And if you don't spend some time doing nothing but gaining money from time to time you'll basically be wearing starter equipment for the entire game.

In WoW, gold is almost entirely removed from player interaction. You get it primarily from the game itself (quests, NPC sales, farming) and spend it primarily at NPCs (repair costs, mounts, consumables). There is an AH and people do use it, but anything good in the game is bound to your character after picking it up and there really isn't much of an economy to speak of. The developers themselves don't even seem to understand what money is for in a basic sense, as on more than one occasion they have sounded confused about the idea of indirect trade.

I like the fact that people can really make money with their diligence and market sense in FFXI, and I love that there are people who basically make a living in the game by crafting and trading with other players. I also love that in WoW new players don't have to stop leveling or whatever else to farm for hours or days just to be able to equip anything.

If a balance could be struck where people could get what they need to handle soloing and perform adequately in a party, but things could still be bought and traded at high levels on the AH or otherwise, that would be great. As with everything in MMOs though, it's a fine line to find given players' tendency toward whatever works the best.

Edited, Apr 13th 2010 1:22pm by TheMoreYouKnow
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#33 Apr 13 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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That's one thing I think is really going to improve the economy overall in XIV over XI and that's that we will have a lot more places to spend our gil. The way I see it shops were RARELY used in XI. The vast majority of gil was being constantly shifted through the AH and that's where all of the instability came from.

There needs to be a wider range of shops and more reason to use them. Give us food shops that have food actually worth buying, craft shops where we can buy more materials, a much wider range of gear and weaponry shops with PROPERLY PRICED items and so on. The durability system is definitely a step in the right direction, we just need to see how it plays out.

Some might think that making gil easier to earn will just make it easier for hardcore players to ruin the economy but I don't think that's how it will be if SE puts enough sinks in place. Entice with in game sporting events or minigames we actually want to play and have to pay for, add better items into shops for cheaper prices (for example would you buy 1 potion for 1000 gil? No you wouldn't. But would you buy 10 potions for 1500 gil?) and other things to that effect and I think we will see a much improved gil system in XIV.
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#34 Apr 13 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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TheMoreYouKnow wrote:
As usual, I think something in the middle of FFXI and WoW would be ideal.

In FFXI making gil is not only essentially impossible doing anything else (leveling, doing quests/missions, helping others, raising craft skills) but the economy is so player-run that you have to be better than the average person at it to get much of anywhere. Unless you have something beyond the norm in terms of economic sense, farming efficiency, craft skills, etc. you're never going to be able to afford much since other people are the ones selling everything and determining their worth. And if you don't spend some time doing nothing but gaining money from time to time you'll basically be wearing starter equipment for the entire game.

In WoW, gold is almost entirely removed from player interaction. You get it primarily from the game itself (quests, NPC sales, farming) and spend it primarily at NPCs (repair costs, mounts, consumables). There is an AH and people do use it, but anything good in the game is bound to your character after picking it up and there really isn't much of an economy to speak of. The developers themselves don't even seem to understand what money is for in a basic sense, as on more than one occasion they have sounded confused about the idea of indirect trade.

I like the fact that people can really make money with their diligence and market sense in FFXI, and I love that there are people who basically make a living in the game by crafting and trading with other players. I also love that in WoW new players don't have to stop leveling or whatever else to farm for hours or days just to be able to equip anything.

If a balance could be struck where people could get what they need to handle soloing and perform adequately in a party, but things could still be bought and traded at high levels on the AH or otherwise, that would be great. As with everything in MMOs though, it's a fine line to find given players' tendency toward whatever works the best.

Edited, Apr 13th 2010 1:22pm by TheMoreYouKnow



I agree. Except that I don't think Bind on Equip was a bad thing. In FFXI say, you only needed to have so many copies of level 10 armor made, then it just circulated to everyone. With BoE, you constantly need to make more, providing a market for crafters. The thing with WoW though was the armor you made was pretty much useless because you got gear so easily elsewhere. The problem with FFXI was that crafting was the ONLY source of acceptable equips earlier on, and there was so little variety.
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#35 Apr 13 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In WoW, gold is almost entirely removed from player interaction. You get it primarily from the game itself (quests, NPC sales, farming) and spend it primarily at NPCs (repair costs, mounts, consumables). There is an AH and people do use it, but anything good in the game is bound to your character after picking it up and there really isn't much of an economy to speak of.


This really doesn't make sense. You can't buy any consumables reliably from vendors. If you want potions, flasks, gems, enchants, and food you need to get them from a player. There are a number of rare drop equipable items that are pretty good and valuable, but aside from the raid drops that do not bind, these drops are decentralized and cannot be efficiently farmed. You may not interact directly with that player, but you're purchasing his/her consumables off the auction house at a price that the market determines. The only NPC purchases that you make are skills, repairs, and the basic fluff. Any special mounts need to be acquired through quests, and/or drops off of certain monsters.

The problem with the way FFXI was doing equipment (my lower level experience) is that the gear prices in the shops were exponential. Level 1 might cost 100 gil, level 5 1000 gil, level 10 10,000 gil, level 15 25,000 gil etc... With this trend in order to keep up, you need income from the game to match this. This simply was not possible. Player A that bought his weapon for 25k gil is going to try to sell his weapon for 25k gil - maybe more if the item is limited, but certainly no less than what the item would vendor back to the NPC for. That is the problem. If the base price of these weapons are lower, it makes things more affordable, and it means that this rare drop from Super Monster Flex that is semi-desirable, will be worth relative to the amount of them present in the world exclusively, and not relative to the fact that it vendors for 15k.

If people talk about RMT/Gil Sellers/Gold Farmers ruining the game, then there really needs to be some community acceptance on one key factor. Don't buy gil, don't group with people that do, and Square has to commit personnel to reviewing large-scale currency transactions and terminating accounts that buy AND/OR sell.


Edited, Apr 13th 2010 5:21pm by desmar
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#36 Apr 14 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I had 100 Alchemy, 60 Woodworking, near 60 goldsmithing (I forget the exact number) and a bunch of other professions skilled up for the purpose of being able to make my own bullets, crossbow bolts, silent oil, etc. and I can tell you straight up that the benefit was largely trivial. When hyper inflation was demolishing my server I made a tidy profit desynthing jewelery from the shop in Jeuno and either selling the ingots or converting them to bullets to sell. Prior to the inflation and after it started to die down, it was six of one, half dozen of the other. The time it took to run around gathering NPC items and farm what NPCs didn't sell in order to "save" gil could have been just as easily been spent farming other items in order to earn gil and buy what I needed.

If you really liked the setup in FFXI, by all means keep playing it. FFXI was about doing what you had to do in order to get ready to do what you wanted to do. FFXIV, directly from the mouths of the devs, will be more about "do what you want to do." You can argue all day long about how great FFXI was for the time sinks and mind numbing repetition but if you think your arguments are going to mystically convert FFXIV into FFXI 2.0, you're in for a major letdown.


First, I don't want FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0. I am sure we all agree that there was a lot to learn for SE and plenty to improve which we already see on some newer stuff in FFXI.

The hyper inflation did not affect anything at all! I don't see how it did affect you. Example again to illustrate my point:

Normal Economy:
Venomous Claw 120k
Scorpion Harness/+1 80k/400k

Hyper Inflation:
Venomous Claw 800k
Scorpion Harness/+1 500k/3,000k

In either economy it takes you 3-4 Claws to get a +1 and less than 1 Claw to get a NQ. This was across the board from Beehive Chips to Silk Thread. It's NO difference in time invested at all. People that complaiend where the ones that did not invest any time in making money either through a craft, BCNM, Quests or farming. They are still complaining now when prices are at an all time low.

I am crafting/fishing 1 day a week for maybe 2-3 hours. I do ENM and BCNM once a week for another 2-3 hours. I actually enjoy this break from leveling, Dynamis and other end game activities.

I think the big difference here compared to other games is that you can't make money from leveling up since animals don't drop money and beastmen are not exactly rich. You also can't sell any of the drops since they are mostly crap on what you experience on. Although the stupid Birds everyone merits and levels on 55+ are a great source of income to me and i tolerate the mind numbing grind just because i know i can make good profit.

KJ
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#37 Apr 14 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
KindjalFerrer wrote:
The hyper inflation did not affect anything at all! I don't see how it did affect you. Example again to illustrate my point:


I was pretty clear in my post about how I was buying jewelry from the vendor in Jeuno (fixed price) and desynthing it to ingots to sell or further convert to bullets. When the cost to produce remains the same but the market value more than doubles, the profit goes way up.

Quote:
I am crafting/fishing 1 day a week for maybe 2-3 hours. I do ENM and BCNM once a week for another 2-3 hours. I actually enjoy this break from leveling, Dynamis and other end game activities.


Six hours/week just farming to fund your other adventures, in the eyes of many, is approximately 6 hours too many. Hardcore vs. casual. Ponder it for a while.
#38 Apr 14 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
Six hours/week just farming to fund your other adventures, in the eyes of many, is approximately 6 hours too many. Hardcore vs. casual. Ponder it for a while.


I wouldn't even put it so much as to those terms. Really, it boils down to whether you're happy PAYING to perform a secondary job just so you can enjoy the rest of the game. Risk vs. reward and difficulty vs. accomplishment statements aside, the fact remains that it just isn't fun when you're spending 1/4 - 1/2 of your MMO life slogging through ******** hoops so that you can actually have funds with which to enjoy the rest of the game.

Frankly, if FFXIV is as brutal on getting funds just to *SURVIVE* in the game, then I probably won't stick with it for too long. Graphics can only carry me so far (Hi2UFFXIII) and gameplay is good and all, but if I'm having to deal with ******** tactics concerning Gil in another Final Fantasy, I'll pass. I'm not talking about gold being handed to you al a carte with your decision being how large of a dose you want. I just want to be able to have enough to merely get by with; farming more for me is a personal decision and if I want to be rich again in an MMO for ***** and giggles, then so be it. But don't make it to where you have to farm for ridiculous lengths (in whatever manner you do it in, be it item farming, fish farming, or AH farming) just to survive.

Hopefully, there's no stupid restriction on the auction house postings either. A limitation I'm OK with, but 7 slots with no way to upgrade? I don't think WoW's unlimited is the answer either. Perhaps a more median response would be the route I've seen Everquest 2 take with their postings in that you had a slot where you have to place a bag to sell your goods. The size of the bag doesn't matter, simply that you got one bag slot (and depending on how large of a house you bought, you got additional bag slots to post more bags). In FFXIV they could easily do something akin to that in a bag system, or in a "You get these slots to sell goods free, but have to pay a rental fee for these additional slots" type deal.
#39 Apr 14 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
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The problem is this:

THE GIL BUYERS! not the sellers. The problem for blizzard is, how can we punish our paying customers, even if we could prove they did something wrong.

Oh I bet you earned that KC the old fashion way, sure you did...

2ndly.. without getting into a rehash of needs vs wants:

-Nothing in a game is a Need!
-Ok i'll humor you, you have needs fine - HQ quality items are NOT NEEDS

I'm fairly certain most of the people who complain about how hard it is to make money are talking about buying HQ quality items since NQ are usually 1/10 to 1/20th of the price, usually even cheaper than the cost of mats for crafted items!

Lastly:

THIS ISN'T COMMUNISM (Or I sure as **** hope it's not)
Everyone is not equal, you survive by your brawn or your wits. It has nothing to do with anyone doing anything to you, this has to do with what you do to yourself, and not expecting some magical safety net to protect you from your bad decisions and lack of understanding and information.

"There's a sucker born every minute." <-- not just clever saying.
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#40 Apr 14 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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BUYERS were a problem because of SE and how hard they made it to make gil. No, HQ was not required, but regular gear was, and certain pieces at certain levels were basically required by the community. And they cost a nice chunk of change. And making that gil took a very long time and it was not fun.
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#41 Apr 14 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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I so have to agree. I loved so much about FFXI, but the key thing that killed it for me was making money.

When I started looking at some of that upgrade gear at multi-millions of gil, and I'd be lucky to make 10k gil farming for about 2 hours, it was just too much.

Now in WoW, I feel like I can make money. It still takes effort, but not weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks of nonstop farming to afford one lousy piece of high end gear.

If FFXIV gets making money right, then it is one giant step closer to getting me to stick with it for the long haul.
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#42 Apr 14 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Making "money" is simply relative. People buying and selling in-game currency with real money will throw the economy out of whack. It becomes "the norm", and when normal is people with millions of store-bought gil, players that play legitimately are at a significant disadvantage. These players then either have to spend massive amounts of time farming, or purchase more with real money, which then supports and puts more gil farmers in the world, which in turn raises prices further... This is an endless cycle. What needs to happen, is Square needs to take a very aggressive stance from the start and ban people buying OR selling.

Off that horse, there should be a pretty static form of itemization that allows people to progress with normal gear from beginning to end game, and allow crafters to fill in optional gaps with superior quality weapons and equipment with +1/+2 versions. If Guildleves provide sufficient gil rewards to buy and upgrade equipment, I think we'll see an economy that is more stable, and more accessible to the average player.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 8:41pm by desmar
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#43 Apr 14 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree that making gil in FFXI is an issue, but something doesn't feel right. I going draw up a process tree. Making Gils is tough that why...


#1. Farmed material cost are high. (mid-lvl items)
Since we need the gils we sell it higher

#2. Expensive and difficult to Lvl craft due to material cost. (and the useless item created which sell for almost no value)
and thus the crafter starts throwing their gils out the GAME when the material price is above wat the NPC pays.

#3. Exponential increase to the price of items due to the level required in crafting
If i lost that much gils leveling craft, i need to earn it back right >.<

#4. Elitist want the staple "uber" equipment
Not to say we are all elitist but still who dun want to perform better in a game that takes 6hrs to lvl. (after lvl 60 was horrible)

#5. Elitist nature of the game is due to the leak of variation of equipments from craft/mob drop.
And the leak variation means there is only that one equip which is undoubtly the best.

#6. Extra cost was added with marco in equipments for different abilities. That adds to cost. (required by Elitist)
Marco in for that few str to WS (equipment in bag can worth millions)

#7a The multi-million equipment is still worth multi-million when you sell it back to auction-house (more; Inflation less; Tax)
U ain't getting poorer if u buy an equipment.

#7b Compare to other games where item brought > equip, will have its value lowered by alot (sellable to NPC only).

#8. FFXI gils removing methods are limited to only a few (Bazzar/AH tax, chocobo airship ride and a few more)

#9a. There wasn't any direct way of getting gil into the game, (Mob drop pathetic amount of gils and NPC dun pay much)

#9b. And came the fishmen bot and gils keep being generated and increase the buying power of players

#10. Result in inflation.



Here comes the point i wish to bring across. FFXI is designed for low gils circlation, if you look at how gil was generated in the game.

This means the farmed material are sold at a price crafters can sell NPC without too much of a lost, which in turn makes wat they sell at a lower price.

Gil generated into the game was very limited so price in theory will not inflate, wat cause the problem was the unexpected Fishmen bot (the very 1st problem) which starts to flood the market with gils. Its obvious when there is buying power, supply price will rise. Players during that era see slow increase in price but #7a means whatever equipment u have will increase in value slowly also.

The game ain't design to have players with that kind of buying power thus we have the problems of gil making now. SE can't seem to response well when things don't go as planned. Can't really blame them as anything they change could cause a huge impact on the enivorment.

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#44 Apr 14 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Really in a perfect setting it should work like a few others have said. Just threw simply playing the game you should make enuff gil to buy the things you need to get by. Nothing nice or shinny just a new sword or a new set of armor when its needed and thats it. If you want the nicer things you HAVE to go farm the gil for them. If you want the reallly nice things you have to go farm alot more.

and as a side note i never had a single issue in FFXI as far as gil went. Maybe it was cause i played when the game was younger and not everyone had there head up there a$$ and if you didnt have the best of the best gear gtfo.
#45 Apr 14 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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ManaMiyabi wrote:

and as a side note i never had a single issue in FFXI as far as gil went. Maybe it was cause i played when the game was younger and not everyone had there head up there a$$ and if you didnt have the best of the best gear gtfo.

The game was waaaaaay worse back in the day than it is now.

Quote:
The hyper inflation did not affect anything at all!

Money sinks.


Bottomline: There is no need to obtain more gil, but rather a far larger selection of equipment.
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#46 Apr 15 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping that Disciples of the Land and Hand will help with this. In FFXI I felt like they way they wanted it was that everything started with some form of HELMing.... For example, a Logger would gather wood from the forrest to sell to the Carpenter, who would make a weapon to sell to the Adventurer... but that sort of only works if everyone gets involved somehow. The problem was HELMing was so limited. Because of the limited areas to do it, and the super slow respawn times, if even one other person was in your territory you both got screwed. On top of that, crafting often times ended up being a money sink instead of actually becoming someone's profession. I feel like having those things fixed will help circulate gil better.
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#47 Apr 15 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Default
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...No, HQ was not required, but regular gear was, and certain pieces at certain levels were basically required by the community. And they cost a nice chunk of change. And making that gil took a very long time and it was not fun.


No! AF lasts you until you get your Relic. Both are FREE! No one will complain if you wear your AF or a mixture of AF/Relic. The only thing you need to buy are accessories and there are always cheap options or quested items that are very good. The same is true for weapons.

The problem is that people want the best weapon/armor/accesory combination for every level but they refuse to invest the time to either get the materials and ask a crafter to make it or farm the money to buy it.

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#48 Apr 15 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Default
KindjalFerrer wrote:
Quote:
...No, HQ was not required, but regular gear was, and certain pieces at certain levels were basically required by the community. And they cost a nice chunk of change. And making that gil took a very long time and it was not fun.


No! AF lasts you until you get your Relic. Both are FREE! No one will complain if you wear your AF or a mixture of AF/Relic. The only thing you need to buy are accessories and there are always cheap options or quested items that are very good. The same is true for weapons.


Ironically, it was the mid level stuff that screwed people over. And it (just as ironically) wasn't necessary. The common kvetch was that people couldn't get groups without the uber gear, yet FFXI was totally lacking an online armory-type system that let people check your gear without having to stand directly in front of them and I don't ever recall seeing someone booted from a party simply because they didn't have the best possible gear. (I recall immature dorks having a lol at the expense of someone who didn't have the best, but it never went so far as removing them). Reputation may or may not have been a part of that. "I grouped with so-and-so and his gear was inadequate so I won't invite them back" but I didn't associate with too many people like that.

I do, however, recall many of my friends taking weeks away from leveling to farm for mid-level gear that would last them well into endgame. The word "gimp" was tossed around altogether too often within the FFXI community and it reflected in the lengths people were willing to go to in order to avoid that label. That sort of thing should never be necessary in an MMO. It's one thing to progress gear at endgame when you've already capped your skills/level and have no other way to progress your character (which was very much the case before the merit system was introduced). It's another thing entirely to stall in the leveling process just to try to fit in.
#49 Apr 15 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
No! AF lasts you until you get your Relic. Both are FREE! No one will complain if you wear your AF or a mixture of AF/Relic. The only thing you need to buy are accessories and there are always cheap options or quested items that are very good. The same is true for weapons.

The problem is that people want the best weapon/armor/accesory combination for every level but they refuse to invest the time to either get the materials and ask a crafter to make it or farm the money to buy it.


I don't know about other jobs, but as a SAM the only pieces that provide benefit to a damage dealer role are the pants and helmet. Contrary to what you believe, the stats on your other pieces of gear make a big difference and wearing full AF would have almost been equivalent to wearing nothing at all. Almost all my accuracy came from those pieces. I would have expected to get booted out of an exp party if I wore full AF, and there were threads in the SAM forums here complaining about others who did.

Gil was always a problem for me, since I didn't many friends to run BCNM with. I got my Hagun by farming Bird plumes and feathers for months. I didn't always enjoy it but I sure appreciated that weapon when I got it. Making it easier to get gil won't help the situation though. If the demand for items remains the same, the amount of effort it takes to require it will also remain the same regardless of the actual number of gil you spend to get it.
#50 Apr 15 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
Calispel wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:
No! AF lasts you until you get your Relic. Both are FREE! No one will complain if you wear your AF or a mixture of AF/Relic. The only thing you need to buy are accessories and there are always cheap options or quested items that are very good. The same is true for weapons.

The problem is that people want the best weapon/armor/accesory combination for every level but they refuse to invest the time to either get the materials and ask a crafter to make it or farm the money to buy it.


I don't know about other jobs, but as a SAM the only pieces that provide benefit to a damage dealer role are the pants and helmet. Contrary to what you believe, the stats on your other pieces of gear make a big difference and wearing full AF would have almost been equivalent to wearing nothing at all. Almost all my accuracy came from those pieces. I would have expected to get booted out of an exp party if I wore full AF, and there were threads in the SAM forums here complaining about others who did.

Gil was always a problem for me, since I didn't many friends to run BCNM with. I got my Hagun by farming Bird plumes and feathers for months. I didn't always enjoy it but I sure appreciated that weapon when I got it. Making it easier to get gil won't help the situation though. If the demand for items remains the same, the amount of effort it takes to require it will also remain the same regardless of the actual number of gil you spend to get it.


From what SE has said about gear (ie. much greater diversity and much more of it being bound to the player) I don't see gil as having anywhere near the same role in FFXIV that it had in FFXI. Gil issues in FFXI stemmed from a variety of sources. It sounds like the devs are trying to address some of those.
#51 Apr 16 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
Calispel wrote:
KindjalFerrer wrote:
No! AF lasts you until you get your Relic. Both are FREE! No one will complain if you wear your AF or a mixture of AF/Relic. The only thing you need to buy are accessories and there are always cheap options or quested items that are very good. The same is true for weapons.

The problem is that people want the best weapon/armor/accesory combination for every level but they refuse to invest the time to either get the materials and ask a crafter to make it or farm the money to buy it.


I don't know about other jobs, but as a SAM the only pieces that provide benefit to a damage dealer role are the pants and helmet. Contrary to what you believe, the stats on your other pieces of gear make a big difference and wearing full AF would have almost been equivalent to wearing nothing at all. Almost all my accuracy came from those pieces. I would have expected to get booted out of an exp party if I wore full AF, and there were threads in the SAM forums here complaining about others who did.

Gil was always a problem for me, since I didn't many friends to run BCNM with. I got my Hagun by farming Bird plumes and feathers for months. I didn't always enjoy it but I sure appreciated that weapon when I got it. Making it easier to get gil won't help the situation though. If the demand for items remains the same, the amount of effort it takes to require it will also remain the same regardless of the actual number of gil you spend to get it.


From what SE has said about gear (ie. much greater diversity and much more of it being bound to the player) I don't see gil as having anywhere near the same role in FFXIV that it had in FFXI. Gil issues in FFXI stemmed from a variety of sources. It sounds like the devs are trying to address some of those.


I really hope so. I know gil wasn't an issue for everybody but of the majority of people I'm seeing in this thread alone who say it wasn't are also telling me I should be ok with excess amounts of farming. I'm NOT and I never will be ok with that and neither should you, generally speaking. Gil should be obtained not given I agree, but having to work days on end just to get the gil for a piece of gear so you don't have to be vilified next time to try to join a party is insane. I don't know how it went for anyone else but as a SAM I was often denied party access or removed from partys when a better SAM came along. I remember specifically it happened once just as I made it to a party that was deep in the second jungle, I can't remember the name just now. But that really crossed the line for me.

But I know I'm not the only one and with SE policy on making XIV more open to casual players I simply can't see how they'd let this issue go unanswered. I mean they made it their mission to stop the gilsellers, well guess why most players turned to RMT in the first place? Because they couldn't justify the time it took to farm and make gil in XI. These were legitmate players who just didn't have the time or the means to make gil.

I've read a lot of good ideas in this thread. With every person I see that suffered with gil like I did I gain a little hope that there was enough of us to make SE see that change is needed.
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