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#52 Apr 16 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
ok im just going to go ahead and say it, kindjal, you are an idiot. you clearly werent playing the same game we all were or you would see the things that you are saying are completely wrong.

every party SHOULD complain if you show up in full AF/relic gear. like i said in my previous post, those pieces were maybe good for a macro and that was it. if i showed up to a party in my drg af i would be I'm a moron'd out of the party. nothing on any of those pieces was beneficial to an exp party, not to mention all the acc i would be missing out on. yes accesories could help but if you cant afford staple pieces like a SH or hauby then you are probably also rocking dex rings, a fang necklace and a rabbit mantle. the only jobs that could get away with it were mage jobs, and thats because in an exp party having the mages geared appropriately isnt as important as the DD's and tanks being geared appropriately. **** most mages could get away with not even having all the spells for their level as long as they had the cure line, raise and refresh. ive seen a lot of bards rocking full af at 75 because people dont care how the bard is geared, they just want the buffs.

also, why do you keep saying relic is free? last time i checked you had to pay to get into dynamis so that right there makes it not free. its also not guaranteed to drop unlike the AF which is all quested. and just like the AF its all good for a macro at best.

in short, kindjal stop arguing that you can wear af/relic gear and get away with it. any gear that wasnt endgame gear wasnt optional, it was necessary. i spent many days in zitah farming so that i could afford to be an "average" dragoon. i would have liked to do endgame content, but i just didnt have the time to devote to it.

Edited, Apr 16th 2010 11:52am by Darrtt
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#53 Apr 16 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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OP has very good points regarding gil issue in FF11.
SE did state that they are implementing several other MMORPG elements to FF14 and WoW is one of them.
one can only speculate what and how its going to play out.
But in my personal experience from WoW and FF11, money has less impact on WoW then it did in FF11.
WoW gold was easier to generate then FF11, since killing mob + quest always net you some sort of gold but it was mainly use to repair your gears.
99% of players gear came from dungeon, where group of 5 (tank, healer and dps) would spend roughly 20min to acquire gear person needs.
Once person has min. gear requirement to run endgame content then person would raid 10 or 25man content to further enhance gears.
of course there are always small % of players would purchase gears via auction house but it isnt something that was mandatory.

Those are just example of how currency has little impact on you average player in WoW.
If FF14 implement similar element then, you will have less issue resorting to RMT.
BTW RMT does exist in WoW and other MMORPG but to me it felt it had less impact on my personal gaming experience.

#54 Apr 18 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I hate to say this, but WoW has done a pretty decent job of solving the issue. What you need is stratified money sinks.

If it costs X for normal character upkeep stuff, X*2 might be the price of a bit better armor so people have to work for it (the company can basically set the price of armor by setting how rare the ingredients are or how rare the recipe is or whatever)

Then you have an X*10 thing that is desirable, not vital, but obtainable. Rich people will just get it, some people have to save for it.


Then you have a X*100 thing that is desirable, absolutely not vital, but a sort of prestige thing. This is your cap sink. People who don't make a lot of money live without it. People who can afford it buy it and take money out of the game.


For most people, they won't be buying the X*100, but the X*100 still works as a great money sink to keep the economy from inflating, keeping prices on X reasonable and money not too hard to work for.

If you don't have an X*100 money sink, prices just keep inflating until they reach a balance were some people have to struggle and some people who make lots just keep the prices high because they don't care about paying it.

^ this*

I don't care what anyone says. Of all the MMOs I've played, WoW has THE best economy. Even with millions of people playing. If I want something I can go out and make money to get it. Or I could run the plethora of available content and get something just as good for FREE. I really hope SE learned something.
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#55 Apr 19 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Rainism wrote:
OP has very good points regarding gil issue in FF11.
SE did state that they are implementing several other MMORPG elements to FF14 and WoW is one of them.
one can only speculate what and how its going to play out.
But in my personal experience from WoW and FF11, money has less impact on WoW then it did in FF11.
WoW gold was easier to generate then FF11, since killing mob + quest always net you some sort of gold but it was mainly use to repair your gears.
99% of players gear came from dungeon, where group of 5 (tank, healer and dps) would spend roughly 20min to acquire gear person needs.
Once person has min. gear requirement to run endgame content then person would raid 10 or 25man content to further enhance gears.
of course there are always small % of players would purchase gears via auction house but it isnt something that was mandatory.

Those are just example of how currency has little impact on you average player in WoW.
If FF14 implement similar element then, you will have less issue resorting to RMT.
BTW RMT does exist in WoW and other MMORPG but to me it felt it had less impact on my personal gaming experience.


Something to that effect would be really nice in XIV, though not exactly like it. I still wanna feel the need to earn gil, I just don't wanna be forced to just to be considered party material. I guess I'm just proving the point that this is a dual issue, gil and variety of equipment. In XI it got down the point that for some jobs at high LVLs there was only 1 piece of gear that was considered acceptable. That's.. insane. And what's more insane is the amount of gil you had to make just to earn some of those pieces. Now the time it take's to earn them or the time it takes to earn the gil to get them would be acceptable IF it were a choice but since for some it wasn't they were forced into doing hard work they didn't want to do just to play the game. This is the kind of scenario I'm trying to fight against in XIV.

I just don't want to see anyone turn away from the experience because they can't keep up with the gil. It even happened to be the first time I picked up XI.
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#56 Apr 19 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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mpmaley wrote:
You do realize that if everyone has a billion gil then all of the prices will just be $10,000,000,000 instead of 10,000 right?


But if its easy to make that $10,000,000,000 then who cares?
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#57 Apr 19 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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jakarai wrote:
mpmaley wrote:
You do realize that if everyone has a billion gil then all of the prices will just be $10,000,000,000 instead of 10,000 right?


But if its easy to make that $10,000,000,000 then who cares?


Mmm...now bear with me, as I haven't been following this thread and don't really know the context, but typically prices scale based on the difficulty of procuring both money and items.

So if, as you said, "its easy to make that $10,000,000,000"....then the rarer objects will be priced with this in mind, and cost much more. Their value will ultimately be dependent upon the difficulty (time and effort taken) in obtaining them, as well as their rarity on the market. So if it's easy to make 10 billion gil, and a particular object is really hard to come by, it's probably going to cost a trillion gil (or whatever, you get the idea).

As long as you can sell items that are inordinately difficult to obtain, they will be sold for amounts that are correspondingly inordinately difficult to obtain.
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#58 Apr 19 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
MV = PY
http://www.oswego.edu/~edunne/340chapter21.html

Increase in the money supply will result in an increase in output or the price, obviously unless velocity (players buying/selling more or faster) is changed.


Marginal Theory of Value
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Marginal:theory:of:value.html

Prices are going to be relative, or items wont be perceived as valuable.


Y=C+I+G+NX

http://www.sparknotes.com/economics/macro/taxandfiscalpolicy/section1.html


Players farm, work, and produce. Taxes are taken(auction house). We trade with each other, domestic spending, and NPCs are Foreign.


Take it or leave it, that's all there is to the economy as it was. I was a crafter 100WW, and I loved it.. until ffxiah came along and exposed all of my profit margins, shifting the power structure to the farmers.
#59 Apr 19 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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Take it or leave it, that's all there is to the economy as it was. I was a crafter 100WW, and I loved it.. until ffxiah came along and exposed all of my profit margins, shifting the power structure to the farmers


Wow, I've never looked at it from that angle before. I've never heard anyone not like ffxiah before. But I can see why it would have caused you a problem.

That being the case, I wonder if that's part of the reason why SE had said they don't want the AH to exist in the same manner in FFXIV as it did in FFXI.
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#60 Apr 19 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
Take it or leave it, that's all there is to the economy as it was. I was a crafter 100WW, and I loved it.. until ffxiah came along and exposed all of my profit margins, shifting the power structure to the farmers


Wow, I've never looked at it from that angle before. I've never heard anyone not like ffxiah before. But I can see why it would have caused you a problem.

That being the case, I wonder if that's part of the reason why SE had said they don't want the AH to exist in the same manner in FFXIV as it did in FFXI.


I'm not really sure what I want out of the AH in XIV. I definitely don't want it to be exactly like the AH in XI as it was largely to blame for the economic issues in XI.

I want the majority of gil trade to be on a person to person basis. Let's say you need a new sword, you track down a blacksmith and barter with him. You could even eliminate gil from the process entirely. Say you're a cook, well a blacksmiths gotta eat. This seems to be like the perfect system. Ofcourse you will still often need to use gil for purchases from PCs but when interactions like this are taking place on a player to player basis you would find much less inflation in the economy. Don't like that blacksmiths prices? Bargain with him or take your business else where.
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#61 Apr 19 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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No thanks. I prefer a central place I can go and get my stuff, not waste time looking all over for the item I need.
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#62 Apr 19 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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No thanks. I prefer a central place I can go and get my stuff, not waste time looking all over for the item I need.


This.

In a server community where everyone speaks one language, something like this would be fine; however, we will be playing with Japanese, North American, and likely European players as well. That means that we will be interacting with a minimum of two languages, but likely as many as 3-4. There is only so much the auto-translator can do. Trade between people is fine, but in an MMO world this boils down to trade chat spam or shouting matches. As I mentioned in another thread, this is usually where the community steps in, probably via the creation of a website. This will only deal with part of the problem, as you are likely only dealing with a third of the total market at best.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 8:24pm by desmar
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#63 Apr 19 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
LestatXIV wrote:
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
Take it or leave it, that's all there is to the economy as it was. I was a crafter 100WW, and I loved it.. until ffxiah came along and exposed all of my profit margins, shifting the power structure to the farmers


Wow, I've never looked at it from that angle before. I've never heard anyone not like ffxiah before. But I can see why it would have caused you a problem.

That being the case, I wonder if that's part of the reason why SE had said they don't want the AH to exist in the same manner in FFXIV as it did in FFXI.


I'm not really sure what I want out of the AH in XIV. I definitely don't want it to be exactly like the AH in XI as it was largely to blame for the economic issues in XI.


Can't blame the AH for XI's economic woes. There were a great many things that contributed to the frustrating in-game financial aspects of FFXI, but the auction house wasn't one of them.
#64 Apr 20 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Darrtt wrote:
ok im just going to go ahead and say it, kindjal, you are an idiot. you clearly werent playing the same game we all were or you would see the things that you are saying are completely wrong.

...

also, why do you keep saying relic is free? last time i checked you had to pay to get into dynamis so that right there makes it not free. its also not guaranteed to drop unlike the AF which is all quested. and just like the AF its all good for a macro at best.

in short, kindjal stop arguing that you can wear af/relic gear and get away with it. any gear that wasnt endgame gear wasnt optional, it was necessary. i spent many days in zitah farming so that i could afford to be an "average" dragoon. i would have liked to do endgame content, but i just didnt have the time to devote to it.


Looking at your DRG equipment you are obviously one of those players that like to spend 10 MILLION gil for STR+1 Attack+3 and then complain they have no money and need to farm for hours for good equipment. I think it is pretty obvious who is the, as you like to put it, idiot here.

But let's not argue over such trivial things as 1 STR and 3 Attack. Let's take a look at the free DRG AF which is pretty good until you can wear Relic.

* Defense +106
* HP +65
* DEX +3
* AGI +3
* VIT +4
* MND +5
* Resist Vs. Earth +10
* Resist Vs. Ice +10
* Resist Vs. Lightning +10
* Evasion Skill +5
* Parrying Skill +10
* Enhances "Ancient Circle" effect
* Enhances "Jump" effects
* Wyvern: HP +10%
* Enhances wyvern's accuracy
* Adds "Regen" effect to wyvern
* Wyvern uses breaths more effectively

That's pretty good i don't see how this is a bad set 50-70. Now let's look at Relic:

* Defense +146
* Accuracy +12
* Attack +7
* HP +79
* STR +4
* DEX +5
* AGI +3
* VIT +9
* Parrying skill +15
* Enhances "High Jump" effect
* Enhances "Resist Blind" effect
* Wyvern: Physical damage taken -5%
* Wyvern: HP Recovered While Healing +6
* Wyvern: Magic damage taken -5%
* Adds support job abilities to wyvern
* Enhances effect of wyvern's breath

It relly sucks, i know, it's soooooo bad. I won't even go into the fact that this is 6 out of 12 slots you have for your character.

Dynamis runs are always free after you sell the currency, in fact most of the time you make more and the money is distributed to the members of the dynamis shell. My monthly paycheck is usually around 300-600k depending on how many HQ's and Wootz we got. That alone is more than i use in consumables per month.

Sure, Relic is not a guaranteed drop but it does not take long with 2 runs a week to get your Relic set.

Maybe you should take a deep breath, quit the name calling and ask yourself what game you been playing all this time.

KJ

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 7:50pm by KindjalFerrer
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#65 Apr 20 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
Darrtt wrote:
ok im just going to go ahead and say it, kindjal, you are an idiot. you clearly werent playing the same game we all were or you would see the things that you are saying are completely wrong.

...

also, why do you keep saying relic is free? last time i checked you had to pay to get into dynamis so that right there makes it not free. its also not guaranteed to drop unlike the AF which is all quested. and just like the AF its all good for a macro at best.

in short, kindjal stop arguing that you can wear af/relic gear and get away with it. any gear that wasnt endgame gear wasnt optional, it was necessary. i spent many days in zitah farming so that i could afford to be an "average" dragoon. i would have liked to do endgame content, but i just didnt have the time to devote to it.


Obviously i did and i am an idiot but last time i checked DRG AF was pretty good until you can wear Relic.

* Defense +106
* HP +65
* DEX +3
* AGI +3
* VIT +4
* MND +5
* Resist Vs. Earth +10
* Resist Vs. Ice +10
* Resist Vs. Lightning +10
* Evasion Skill +5
* Parrying Skill +10
* Enhances "Ancient Circle" effect
* Enhances "Jump" effects
* Wyvern: HP +10%
* Enhances wyvern's accuracy
* Adds "Regen" effect to wyvern
* Wyvern uses breaths more effectively

That's pretty good i don't see how this is a bad set 50-70.

There is no +ACC. That alone makes it fatally flawed. There's not even +STR, +ATK, and lol @ +MND/VIT/AGI. I'd say you're just trolling, but I'll go into this anyway.

Scorpion Harness alone beats the pants out of any AF piece for DRG, and cheap AH gear (Walkure Mask, Jaridah Hands/Feet, Bastokan Subligar which is @LVL25), you get ~13 ACC and ~14 ATK (going by memory here). The AF set minus the legs(+HP to wyvern) are just macro swaps.

Quote:
Now let's look at Relic:

* Defense +146
* Accuracy +12
* Attack +7
* HP +79
* STR +4
* DEX +5
* AGI +3
* VIT +9
* Parrying skill +15
* Enhances "High Jump" effect
* Enhances "Resist Blind" effect
* Wyvern: Physical damage taken -5%
* Wyvern: HP Recovered While Healing +6
* Wyvern: Magic damage taken -5%
* Adds support job abilities to wyvern
* Enhances effect of wyvern's breath

It relly sucks, i know, it's soooooo bad. I won't even go into the fact that this is 6 out of 12 slots you have for your character.

This is nice and all until you notice that Relic Gear takes months, maybe years if you're unlucky to gain, and within that time span you can get noticeably better endgame gear like Askar and Homan. In fact the Barone set largely beats the pants out of this due to +Atk(~33). Lets not get into the fact that you completely neglected +Haste gear either.

Quote:
Dynamis runs are always free after you sell the currency, in fact most of the time you make more and the money is distributed to the members of the dynamis shell. My monthly paycheck is usually around 300-600k depending on how many HQ's and Wootz we got. That alone is more than i use in consumables per month.

Sure, Relic is not a guaranteed drop but it does not take long with 2 runs a week to get your Relic set.

This is entirely subjective, and largely depands on the linkshell criteria. In fact my old dynamis LS lotted on Currency to fund their own runs as well as other events, so there was no "Monthly paycheck".

The fact that you say "it does not take long" makes me believe fortune has largely smiled upon you or quite simply you have your head up your rear. Either way DRG was a terrible example. If you wanted to give an example of jobs able to wear their AF, then pick SCH or RDM as those are the only two jobs to be acceptably good in AF, and that's just because they're mage jobs.
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#66 Apr 20 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
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CarthRDM, it was not an example it was in reply to Carrtt the Cerberus+1 wearing DRG.

You seem to forget that DRG has +22 Acc naturally from his Job Ability at level 50. The AF is only 6 slots, there is plenty of cheap options to add more ACC on top of that 22 (honestly with food i don't see how you need a lot more in the lower levels pre end game). Sure you can wear a SH, HQ acc rings and DEX in every slot but it wont help you because you will cap your ACC much earlier than any other job that has not got the Job Trait that DRG has.

I have seen many players stocking up on X attribute like mad not knowing they way over the cap and all that gil is just wasted. It amuses me and i wont have it any other way either because those are the players that buy that +1 i crafted for millions of gil although the NQ would have been just fine.


The whole discussion was about how you need millions of gil to play FFXI or be a good XYZ Job. That in FFXI you need to farm like it's your second job to be good or be accepted by the community.

My argument was that you have tons of free gear like AF/Relic and of cause as you also mentioned Askar, Homan etc. You also quite accurately noticed that there are extremely cheap options that are better, like Walkure/Jaridah.

It's the players like Darrtt that have a Cerberus Mantle +1 to increase the size of their e-peen that complain. Anyone stupid enough to buy that should in fact not be allowed to post about how hard it is to get money.

KJ



Edited, Apr 20th 2010 8:57pm by KindjalFerrer
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#67 Apr 20 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
Sure you can wear a SH, HQ acc rings and DEX in every slot but it wont help you because you will cap your ACC much earlier than any other job that has not got the Job Trait that DRG has.
This might be true now, but back in the early days things like SH and Sniper Rings were very rare and prohibitively expensive to the average player. I remember the time when seeing someone wearing a Scorpion Harness was like running into a rich celebrity. Now it's not even an afterthought. It's assumed you MUST have certain gear in order to be effective, even though people got along just fine in the past without them and had much bigger TNL and a lot fewer gear options.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 2:18pm by Harri
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#68 Apr 21 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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KindjalFerrer wrote:
CarthRDM, it was not an example it was in reply to Carrtt the Cerberus+1 wearing DRG.

Yes, I got that quite well, but doesn't mean I agree with your example.

Quote:
You seem to forget that DRG has +22 Acc naturally from his Job Ability at level 50. The AF is only 6 slots, there is plenty of cheap options to add more ACC on top of that 22 (honestly with food i don't see how you need a lot more in the lower levels pre end game). Sure you can wear a SH, HQ acc rings and DEX in every slot but it wont help you because you will cap your ACC much earlier than any other job that has not got the Job Trait that DRG has.

You missed the part where I mentioned +ATK, in which is where DRG falters unlike it's competition. DRG AF gives none of that, and the +ACC is needed for accurate penta thrusts.

Quote:
The whole discussion was about how you need millions of gil to play FFXI or be a good XYZ Job. That in FFXI you need to farm like it's your second job to be good or be accepted by the community.

My argument was that you have tons of free gear like AF/Relic and of cause as you also mentioned Askar, Homan etc. You also quite accurately noticed that there are extremely cheap options that are better, like Walkure/Jaridah.

Except AF/Relic are usually either very bad, or specific macro swaps.

You don't need millions of gil at once, but you do and will spend millions of gil for not only gear, but items and food, and sometimes for fetch quests. The reason why one needs to "farm like it's your second job" is not because everything is expensive but rather you have to constantly buy things as well as pour into money sinks. A steady income is needed to progress well in the game.

And like it or not, there are standards of which everyone expects, even back in the day where Hauby/SH were 1-2 million gil, people still expected them to have it. Now that they're chump change (~100k), they're a constant sight, and it's mainly because there are no other gear that gives as good of a benefit as them.

As for the Cerberus Mantle+1 DRG, good for him. It certainly isn't bad, but not a constant standard. He just chose to optimize his job, and there's no harm in that. And honestly, you should be looking to do just that.

I certainly do hope this type of crisis can be averted in XIV, because it really was an annoyance.
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#69 Apr 22 2010 at 6:38 AM Rating: Default
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game financial aspects of FFXI, but the auction house wasn't one of them.

With such a low limit of 7 items I fully disagree. When you go out on a quest you will often end up with a plethora of item to tell, if you end up with 20 items to sell you either have to buy a mule, something that shouldn't have been required to list a single outings take, or in this case list 7 items, hope they all sell, list another seven and hole those all sell, then finally list your last 6 items. Since auctions last 3 days it could have taken up to 9 days before you could list another adventures take. Just to pull a number from my backside I would estimate a good 98% of items I could have made decent amounts of money on here and there ended up going to a vendor for little to nothing just because it would have taken months to get through the higher priced items and get them placed on the AH. If you did have a mule, the time wasted having to login to each one just to list another 7 items was a job in itself. In hardcore farming mode it would take about an hour to go through each mule to check, get items/money from mail, relist, redistribute if one mule was outpacing the others, etc...

This also forces the scarcity of many consumable items, because it's generally the low level craft-ables that would get discarded or vendor-ed out.
#70 Apr 22 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
at first i didnt know what you were talking about when you kept referring to me as the Cerb+1 drg. i can tell you that the gear on my character profile is not 100% accurate. if you read my posts you would see that i said i spent many days farming to be an average drg. my gear setup was more like this;

thalassocrat, mythril grip+1, olibanum sachet
wyvern helm, chiv chain, brutal earring, ethereal earring,
barone corazza, pallas brc, rajas ring, uthalams ring
amement+1, life belt, barone cosiales(sp), barone gamberias(sp)

i didnt have time to do dynamis or sky. i was in a salvage shell for a while but it was ran so terribly that i quit after a month. i got into a limbus shell and was working on drachen+1 hands but i quit the game before i finished them.

as you can see from my gear i wasnt the greatest drg, that was my TP and WS gear. yes there is room for serious improvemenet and i was working on that.

i have not comlained about not having gil, i actually enjoyed the time i spent farming. i just want you to see my point of view which is that AF/Relic is NOT ACCEPTABLE in any group activity. if you want to wear it around town thats fine but in FFXI your reputation was big. if people knew you would show up in af/relic you would not get invites.

as long as there is a wider variety of gear that is actually useful across ALL LEVELS, and gil is easier to come by, then XIV will not have this problem.
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#71 Apr 22 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
I can see how some people will complain about gil if they can only play two hours a week but come on. With a full time job, school, and a life outside I was able to afford to level multiple high expensive jobs I.E PUP when it first came out and COR. I did this by doing tons of either BS/KS/ISNM and ENM anything that would make gil. Now while finishing up subs for the level increase I'm finishing up my Usukane/Ares bodies by working for it by following same methods I've used for years. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a huge amount of time to afford respectable gear, just takes effort.
#72 Apr 22 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, if you could post more than 7 items up at a time, Gil would have been much more easier to come by.
Sure, SE could have bumped the drop rates on things a bit, so getting a stack of crawler silk didn't take a month and forever (Exageration) or having to level THF to 75 and getting TH4 just to farm.

But SE wanted people to take up a craft, and those that did, were better off finacially in the long run vs. those that just farmed.


I see XIV having some issues with economics, but if they make things to easy to get, then we're going to see items for 10x their value (WoW's a perfect example of this, some of the gear that is crafted / sellable is 200g+ at some levels) when you're only going to wear it for ~2 levels, if that.

Either way, bust out your Disciple of Hand class and get to work, because reguardless of way they do it, you're going to be farming, one way shape or form, it'll happen even if it's just endless quest grinds for the gil reward.
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#73 Apr 22 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Artifact
Quote:
* Defense +106
* HP +65
* DEX +3
* AGI +3
* VIT +4
* MND +5
* Resist Vs. Earth +10
* Resist Vs. Ice +10
* Resist Vs. Lightning +10
* Evasion Skill +5
* Parrying Skill +10
* Enhances "Ancient Circle" effect
* Enhances "Jump" effects
* Wyvern: HP +10%
* Enhances wyvern's accuracy
* Adds "Regen" effect to wyvern
* Wyvern uses breaths more effectively


Relic
Quote:
* Defense +146
* Accuracy +12
* Attack +7
* HP +79
* STR +4
* DEX +5
* AGI +3
* VIT +9
* Parrying skill +15
* Enhances "High Jump" effect
* Enhances "Resist Blind" effect
* Wyvern: Physical damage taken -5%
* Wyvern: HP Recovered While Healing +6
* Wyvern: Magic damage taken -5%
* Adds support job abilities to wyvern
* Enhances effect of wyvern's breath


Random Hodgepodge of AH gear (no HQ, no Rare/Ex)
Walahra Turban (Technically Rare/Ex, but you can buy the coins, so it's just a matter of trading to NPC)
Scorpion Harness
Dusk Gloves
Barone Cosciales
Dusk Ledelsens
Quote:
Defense +119
HP +90
MP +30
STR +2
Attack +15
Accuracy +10
Evasion +10
Haste +10%
Enmity +1
Resist vs. Ice -20
Resist vs. Water +15
Resist vs. Dark +15
Jump TP Bonus
Movement Speed Decrease


Even with no gear swaps, camping, Rare/Ex, anything, this set beats either of the others. Add in swaps to good Att/Acc gear for Penta in place of the haste and you have a nice, NQ, starting point for building a DRG.

Full artifact basically boils down to "DEX +3" when DDing.
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#74 Apr 28 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske wrote:
jakarai wrote:
mpmaley wrote:
You do realize that if everyone has a billion gil then all of the prices will just be $10,000,000,000 instead of 10,000 right?


But if its easy to make that $10,000,000,000 then who cares?


Mmm...now bear with me, as I haven't been following this thread and don't really know the context, but typically prices scale based on the difficulty of procuring both money and items.

So if, as you said, "its easy to make that $10,000,000,000"....then the rarer objects will be priced with this in mind, and cost much more. Their value will ultimately be dependent upon the difficulty (time and effort taken) in obtaining them, as well as their rarity on the market. So if it's easy to make 10 billion gil, and a particular object is really hard to come by, it's probably going to cost a trillion gil (or whatever, you get the idea).

As long as you can sell items that are inordinately difficult to obtain, they will be sold for amounts that are correspondingly inordinately difficult to obtain.


Yes, they will increase, but again it's not always in the same exponential path. Usually, but not always in virtual money transactions. Despite my disgust with a lot of the recent changes to the game (and my decision to not even bother with trying out Cataclysm) Blizzard essentially got the jist of the money problem right with WoW.

BoE has its cons and pros, but essentially it (along with the ever constant circulation of needed goods) allows items to always been in need. Disenchanting furthered this path with helping to eliminate unwanted gear.

However it's handled in FFXIV, I hope that the *underlying* goal of how gold functions in WoW comes over:

If you can't afford it with normal gameplay, you REALLY do not need it.
#75 Apr 30 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
3 posts
Glad I found this thread because this is probably my greatest worry for a game. I have to agree with so many who found the FFXI economic/craft system severely lacking and those who point out how WoW for the most part solved those issues.

In the same vein, I am wondering if people are concerned about the potential effects of Disciple of the Land/Hand classes on FFXIV? Of course we dont have final details yet, but simply going off what has been released. I think that having what amount to separate classes that do nothing but craft/make money could have potentially detrimental effects on the economy.

I say this because while there are some who simply live to do nothing but craft, but I think its fair to say a sizeable majority of MMO players do crafting as an aside to simply get by; to earn some money, or to make an item. I fear if they make the crafting system too specialized, time consuming or complicated, you will have a repeat of FFXI where it might lead to relatively few ppl controlling the markets and making all the money. Would everyone have to level one of these classes first to make sure they have money? These classes would also be a bonanza for RMT's and draw them to the game.

I admit Im intrigued by the idea for the classes, but I think WoW might have had the right idea where you have the option to simply level your crafts in the natural course of leveling your actual class.



#76 Apr 30 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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108 posts
I think you're all missing the point just slightly. The cost of items is always relative to the amount of money in the economy, but the time it takes to produce them is not. Money in an MMO is a way of transferring time spent to other people. Everyone does something different to contribute to the economy, but bartering for everything you want is extremely cumbersome because they guy with the thing you want might not want what you have to offer. Therefore, money.

You are always paying people for their time, or the time they bought and refined - buying items to craft armor, for instance. Someone had to take the time to get the materials, right? The longer things take, the more money you have to pay relative to the total economy. When you're talking about how it takes so long to make money, what you're really saying is things just take a long time. What you seem to want is for stuff to just not take so **** long. I agree completely.
#77 May 01 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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DragoonRising wrote:
I think you're all missing the point just slightly. The cost of items is always relative to the amount of money in the economy, but the time it takes to produce them is not. Money in an MMO is a way of transferring time spent to other people. Everyone does something different to contribute to the economy, but bartering for everything you want is extremely cumbersome because they guy with the thing you want might not want what you have to offer. Therefore, money.

You are always paying people for their time, or the time they bought and refined - buying items to craft armor, for instance. Someone had to take the time to get the materials, right? The longer things take, the more money you have to pay relative to the total economy. When you're talking about how it takes so long to make money, what you're really saying is things just take a long time. What you seem to want is for stuff to just not take so **** long. I agree completely.


Exactly. This just pairs in with the issue of limited equipment options in the higher up levels of XI. All the "acceptable" gear was extremely hard to obtain or the materials hard to farm and the huge amounts of gil and time a crafter had to put in to obtain an HQ was directly proportional to the amount of gil you were now going to have to spend.

That's why it's a fixable issue because it's in SEs hands, not the communitys. We need a lot more ways to earn gil, a LOT more equipment options per level and a superior crafting system. I don't see any reason all 3 of those requests won't be fulfilled in XIV, it just seems like the logical step forward. Some people have been frowning upon these ideas because they will take away from the "hardcore" aspect of XI and well the fact is hardcore DOES NOT a good game make. MMO or not no one should be happy about having to invest hours and hours of their time not to grow their character in a game but to earn the ability to get the equipment to grow their character in a game.
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#78 May 02 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
You're wrong. The community created such high expectations around food, consumables, and gear that people frequently had to take extended time away form leveling just to farm for things they felt they needed based on those general expectations. When you have to stop doing what you want to do for days/weeks/sometimes even months, the game is broken. It has nothing to do with being "lazy" and everything to do with not being entertained.


???

You're heavily exaggerating the "plight" of the XI player, AureliusSir. If someone thought they had to discontinue all other forms of play in favor of gil generation for months at a time to get their basic needs met, then they thought incorrectly, or placed unrealistic demands on themselves for their level. It's not the game's fault that said player lost touch with reality so badly, and hopefully the player quickly realized the absurdity of the situation.

What I'm seeing on the thread is a disconnect between two types of players... Both of which share the same MMO. You've got the hardcore players and the casuals. The hardcore players thirst for items that are fantastically difficult to obtain, be it by huge prices, long quests strings, nearly impossible fights, ect. Then you have more casual players who see X piece of gear, decide they HAVE to have it (or allow others to convince them of such a preposterous myth), and realizing it's been put out of easy reach, whine. Every MMO has gear placed out of reach of most players, and every MMO has a host of whiney people demanding it be brought down to what they want to do, or pay, to have it. This is NOT an XI phenomenon.

I'm not so sure what adjustments those arguing about Gil in XI are expecting. If the economy is player driven, then it isn't gonna matter how easy or difficult making Gil is for the average player, because the economy will scale prices to reflect the currency out there. If it takes an average player an hour to make (just for example) 10,000 gil, the economy will reflect that. Average player can make 100,000/hr? Prices will inflate accordingly. Every MMO with a player driven economy works the same. This is NOT an XI phenomenon.

We have seen hints that more gear may be headed towards the "Ex" or "BoP" system, which takes gear away from the AH altogether. That's not gonna change the continued cries about money that follow every MMO that has money at all. Go to the WoW forums now and you'll find someone complaining how terribly hard it is to make money in WoW. People will be bagging for cash in EQ2, LoTRO, Warhammer, Aion,... you name it. This is NOT an XI phenomenon.



Some people like the parts of an MMO that brings them money. Crafting, gathering, grinding mobs for drops, playing the AH,... And these people will find Gil generation fun, easy, maybe even trivial. Some people hate all forms of gil generation and demand it be marginalized in importance, if not completely eradicated from the game. IMO, the best way to accommodate the wishes of both sides is to have quested BoP gear and crafted AH-able gear that largely let you decide what form of work you want to put in to get the same stats. That system hasn't worked especially well in WoW, mainly because the crafters have few items that compete with items from instances in most slots, but that's not to say it Can't work.
#79 May 02 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
ascorbic wrote:
You're heavily exaggerating the "plight" of the XI player, AureliusSir. If someone thought they had to discontinue all other forms of play in favor of gil generation for months at a time to get their basic needs met, then they thought incorrectly, or placed unrealistic demands on themselves for their level. It's not the game's fault that said player lost touch with reality so badly, and hopefully the player quickly realized the absurdity of the situation.


I'm not exaggerating anything. When I played, there was a widely held belief that you had and used the best or you were gimp. Everyone wanted to do anything/everything possible to stand out in the hopes that they'd be remembered and wouldn't have such a hard time finding parties. It wasn't because the combat mechanics required the best...it was a broken group-onry system that said if you weren't getting party invites you weren't progressing your character, and people would frequently find themselves more willing to go farm for hours day in and day out for the gear that would allow them to stand out than sit around in Jeuno for hours and hours doing nothing.

I remember when Erase was something your average WHM farmed for weeks to buy because they burned all of their seals trying to get the BCNM drop and still couldn't come up with it. I remember running BCNMs for a WHM friend who was gobsmacked when we handed him the scroll that dropped with no strings attached because it sold for so much and we gave it to him without even a hint at splitting the value. I made 2 million gil selling the Sleepga 2 scroll I got from the quest because BLM who apparently didn't "need" it (according to you) had either already done the quest and sold the scroll long ago to fund gear for another job that they weren't willing to part with or couldn't find a group to do the quest.

I knew several people who leveled WAR to 75 (and farmed for the gear that went along with the "expectations" of the job) just so that they could get into TP burns. I knew people who leveled BRD and paid exhorbitant prices for Mary's Horn just so they could ***** themselves out to BCNM parties. When people are willing to invest that kind of time into doing something they don't have any real interest in doing, it says a lot about the broken nature of the game whether it's xp/hour or gil. Too much of what players felt was necessary to have a well rounded character was found on the auction house. The dmenad was always high and the supply was never close to meeting it. When SE said they're moving towards a more "Ex" based system for gear (in addition to a significant increase in gear diversity), I was happy because it can only reduce the impact that gil has on the experience.

And no, you won't find threads on the WoW boards here complaining about the difficulty of earning gold because the game is tuned so that there are only so many things you "need" gold for, and those costs are covered by simply questing as you level. By the time someone has hit 80 and carved there way through a couple of extra Northrend zones they'll have their class training and all tiers of riding training paid for and after that, their only mandatory costs associated with the game after that are flight fees and gear repairs. There are lots of things you can spend gold on, but none of them are ever seen as truly necessary. The best gear is always BoP. Consumables for a week of raiding can be had for an hour or two worth of dailies. I can remember when it would take me four hours to farm enough gil to buy a stack of food in FFXI...12 hours worth of food.

Broken. Deny it all you want, it was broken as all ****. If it actually worked, SE wouldn't be looking at changing it.
#80 May 03 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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205 posts
Quote:
Broken. Deny it all you want, it was broken as all ****. If it actually worked, SE wouldn't be looking at changing it.


Most of what is said here isn't abt whether the gil system is broken. It's an agrument abt wat cos the system to be broken. Seem like the major agrument was the #1 elitist part of FFXI or #2 the difficulty of earning gil.

WoW system to solve the issue on high end gear was Raids. Now compare the difficulty of Raid to FFXI; HNM, dynamis and gathering seal for BCNM. (Do include things like the death penalty and need to be an eltie to even join such events)

Quoting Eske
Quote:
Their value will ultimately be dependent upon the difficulty (time and effort taken) in obtaining them, as well as their rarity on the market.


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#81 May 03 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
Sleepymagi wrote:
Quote:
Broken. Deny it all you want, it was broken as all ****. If it actually worked, SE wouldn't be looking at changing it.


Most of what is said here isn't abt whether the gil system is broken. It's an agrument abt wat cos the system to be broken. Seem like the major agrument was the #1 elitist part of FFXI or #2 the difficulty of earning gil.

WoW system to solve the issue on high end gear was Raids. Now compare the difficulty of Raid to FFXI; HNM, dynamis and gathering seal for BCNM. (Do include things like the death penalty and need to be an eltie to even join such events)


I don't know wtf you were trying to say there, but either use full words, go back to 4chan, or sober up before you post next time, mmmkay?
#82 May 03 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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296 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I'm not exaggerating anything. When I played, there was a widely held belief that you had and used the best or you were gimp. Everyone wanted to do anything/everything possible to stand out in the hopes that they'd be remembered and wouldn't have such a hard time finding parties. It wasn't because the combat mechanics required the best...it was a broken group-onry system that said if you weren't getting party invites you weren't progressing your character, and people would frequently find themselves more willing to go farm for hours day in and day out for the gear that would allow them to stand out than sit around in Jeuno for hours and hours doing nothing.


So, in other words, inflated expectations created by an elitist minority drove people into making poor choices. Aren't we having this discussion a couple threads away? That doesn't speak to the topic we're discussing here (too hard to get gil), it speaks towards allowing a high school kid tell you what to do. The people trying to have elite level gear all the way up through their first job put strain on themselves. The game didn't do that to them. Peer pressure did. And I'll bet when all that time gets added they didn't get to 75 any faster (or likely even as fast) than the Adventurer that geared himself suitably for his level without succumbing to every teenagers' whim.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I remember when Erase was something your average WHM farmed for weeks to buy because they burned all of their seals trying to get the BCNM drop and still couldn't come up with it. I remember running BCNMs for a WHM friend who was gobsmacked when we handed him the scroll that dropped with no strings attached because it sold for so much and we gave it to him without even a hint at splitting the value. I made 2 million gil selling the Sleepga 2 scroll I got from the quest because BLM who apparently didn't "need" it (according to you) had either already done the quest and sold the scroll long ago to fund gear for another job that they weren't willing to part with or couldn't find a group to do the quest.


We also gave our WHMs erase when it dropped. I would be sad to be associated with an LS that wouldn't. Certainly not mandatory to spend an inordinate amount of gil there. And a someone has to buy a BLM scroll because they sold it earlier? Again, I'm not seeing the issue here. Couldn't find a group? COULDN'T? Yeah, I bet BLM's spent millions all the time out of a desire to not communicate with others...

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I knew several people who leveled WAR to 75 (and farmed for the gear that went along with the "expectations" of the job) just so that they could get into TP burns. I knew people who leveled BRD and paid exhorbitant prices for Mary's Horn just so they could ***** themselves out to BCNM parties. When people are willing to invest that kind of time into doing something they don't have any real interest in doing, it says a lot about the broken nature of the game whether it's xp/hour or gil. Too much of what players felt was necessary to have a well rounded character was found on the auction house. The dmenad was always high and the supply was never close to meeting it. When SE said they're moving towards a more "Ex" based system for gear (in addition to a significant increase in gear diversity), I was happy because it can only reduce the impact that gil has on the experience.


So you knew a guy who leveled a job to increase the speed in which he merited. How does that apply to Gil being to hard to get? He wanted a faster meriting path than others, and he got it. He didn't need it to level his main job.

You knew people who leveled BRD... so they could get rich on BCNMs. He needed to do that to level his main job? No. He wanted an easy method to get rich. If they could afford to pay "exhorbitant prices for Mary's Horn" you'll have a hard time convincing anyone they did so because they were too broke to aptly gear their chosen profession.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And no, you won't find threads on the WoW boards here complaining about the difficulty of earning gold because the game is tuned so that there are only so many things you "need" gold for, and those costs are covered by simply questing as you level.


Of course you will! Just because the average person should have been able to buy their riding tiers and such doesn't mean they all did. In fact, even if it only takes the average effort, it implies all those with less than average cash generation and saving habits won't. When I first went to WoW very few people had paid the (5k gold i believe) price to get the faster mounts. When I returned about a month before the last expansion still less than half of the people I knew in game had raised the cash. Not that I'm claiming gold generation was hard. I'm simply saying you find these same people in every single MMO. Are you claiming you never have been begged for gold in town before? Happened to me almost every time I spent any real time near an AH. Wish I were you.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
There are lots of things you can spend gold on, but none of them are ever seen as truly necessary. The best gear is always BoP. Consumables for a week of raiding can be had for an hour or two worth of dailies. I can remember when it would take me four hours to farm enough gil to buy a stack of food in FFXI...12 hours worth of food.


Frankly I ran out of things to buy my last shot at WoW and that was with a toon that began less than two months before and every useful piece of gear I could find (Nope, didn't buy a motorcycle XD ). You're right most everything of use is BoP. You obviously liked it, because it fit your playstyle. You don't seem interested in what anyone with another playstyle might prefer. That was one of the most disappointing aspects of WoW for me. Aside from perhaps making yourself a couple nifty BoP pieces of equipment, what was the use in taking up a craft? And what was its use after those were done? As you've said, average people shouldn't be working too hard for gold... there just isn't much to buy. So crafting becomes a silly time waster and running instances/raids becomes the ONLY form of advancement available. It eliminates the ability to time shift your efforts. In XI, if I couldn't work on advancing one of my goals, I could always make some gil that brought be closer to another object I wanted. I quickly realized after buying up the few pieces worth owning in WoW, all the gold in the world was nothing but a representation of wasted time. If I couldn't run the event I needed, I really couldn't do anything to realize a gear centered goal. That's broken... unless the system favors your predilections.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Broken. Deny it all you want, it was broken as all ****. If it actually worked, SE wouldn't be looking at changing it.


So anytime a company makes a new game they are admitting the last one was broken unless they copy every dynamic within? I'd propose that form of logic is what's broken.
#83 May 03 2010 at 2:54 AM Rating: Good
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ascorbic wrote:
So, in other words, inflated expectations created by an elitist minority drove people into making poor choices. Aren't we having this discussion a couple threads away? That doesn't speak to the topic we're discussing here (too hard to get gil), it speaks towards allowing a high school kid tell you what to do. The people trying to have elite level gear all the way up through their first job put strain on themselves. The game didn't do that to them. Peer pressure did. And I'll bet when all that time gets added they didn't get to 75 any faster (or likely even as fast) than the Adventurer that geared himself suitably for his level without succumbing to every teenagers' whim.


It wasn't "an elitist minority". It was the entire **** server for every server. The fact that you called it a minority and then turned around and called it peer pressure (which doesn't HAPPEN in a minority) proves Aurelius's point all the more.

ascorbic wrote:
We also gave our WHMs erase when it dropped. I would be sad to be associated with an LS that wouldn't. Certainly not mandatory to spend an inordinate amount of gil there. And a someone has to buy a BLM scroll because they sold it earlier? Again, I'm not seeing the issue here. Couldn't find a group? COULDN'T? Yeah, I bet BLM's spent millions all the time out of a desire to not communicate with others...


I fail to see what you're trying to say or acomplish, other than ranting and trying to be argumentative.

ascorbic wrote:
So you knew a guy who leveled a job to increase the speed in which he merited. How does that apply to Gil being to hard to get? He wanted a faster meriting path than others, and he got it. He didn't need it to level his main job.

You knew people who leveled BRD... so they could get rich on BCNMs. He needed to do that to level his main job? No. He wanted an easy method to get rich. If they could afford to pay "exhorbitant prices for Mary's Horn" you'll have a hard time convincing anyone they did so because they were too broke to aptly gear their chosen profession.


Err, how does he stating something about how even the expectations of XP/hour were ridiculous in the public eye translate into "gil is hard to get". He mentioned XP, not gil, and didn't try to connect them: you did. More fluff, no substance.

You didn't "get rich" on BCNMs from that era; there wasn't anything to really *GET* rich off of. Most of the time it was in a shared pool and you usually came out decently well (which translates to "I won't have to farm for food for a week now."). Until the CoP and later BCs, there weren't any really get rich quick. Utsusemi: Ni and Erase didn't sell for *that* much in comparison to a lot of the high ticket items now. No, what that BRD, and many others, wanted was just something to break the monotony and help pad themselves a bit to make adventuring easier.

ascorbic wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And no, you won't find threads on the WoW boards here complaining about the difficulty of earning gold because the game is tuned so that there are only so many things you "need" gold for, and those costs are covered by simply questing as you level.


Of course you will! Just because the average person should have been able to buy their riding tiers and such doesn't mean they all did. In fact, even if it only takes the average effort, it implies all those with less than average cash generation and saving habits won't. When I first went to WoW very few people had paid the (5k gold i believe) price to get the faster mounts. When I returned about a month before the last expansion still less than half of the people I knew in game had raised the cash. Not that I'm claiming gold generation was hard. I'm simply saying you find these same people in every single MMO. Are you claiming you never have been begged for gold in town before? Happened to me almost every time I spent any real time near an AH. Wish I were you.


Uh, show me? I've *never* seen a thread (since the introduction of daily quests) complaining about how hard gold is to get. Seriously, you're just arguing to be arguing and not even bothering to try to be truthful.

Secondly, the faster mounts? Yeah, those are called a *LUXURY* item. Did you need them? No. Where they ever required? No. Did they enhance any stats on your character like gear? No. People that don't have them, don't have them because they don't see them as needed just like they probably don't see all the virtual pets as needed.

Begged for gold? I've been begged for gil more than gold.

ascorbic wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
There are lots of things you can spend gold on, but none of them are ever seen as truly necessary. The best gear is always BoP. Consumables for a week of raiding can be had for an hour or two worth of dailies. I can remember when it would take me four hours to farm enough gil to buy a stack of food in FFXI...12 hours worth of food.


Frankly I ran out of things to buy my last shot at WoW and that was with a toon that began less than two months before and every useful piece of gear I could find (Nope, didn't buy a motorcycle XD ). You're right most everything of use is BoP. You obviously liked it, because it fit your playstyle. You don't seem interested in what anyone with another playstyle might prefer. That was one of the most disappointing aspects of WoW for me. Aside from perhaps making yourself a couple nifty BoP pieces of equipment, what was the use in taking up a craft? And what was its use after those were done? As you've said, average people shouldn't be working too hard for gold... there just isn't much to buy. So crafting becomes a silly time waster and running instances/raids becomes the ONLY form of advancement available. It eliminates the ability to time shift your efforts. In XI, if I couldn't work on advancing one of my goals, I could always make some gil that brought be closer to another object I wanted. I quickly realized after buying up the few pieces worth owning in WoW, all the gold in the world was nothing but a representation of wasted time. If I couldn't run the event I needed, I really couldn't do anything to realize a gear centered goal. That's broken... unless the system favors your predilections.


Uh, no. *YOU* are the one that doesn't like it when anyone seems to not like YOUR playstyle.

Ironically, you just posted how much more group oriented for endgame and character progression WoW can be than in FFXI. In WoW, you need people to progress. In FFXI? Just farm forever and you can eventually get gear that's probably only a side-grade from the BiS for that piece (or actually WAS BiS for a long time).

If anything, that shows just how dramatically flawed the entire gear management system is in FFXI. Thanks for proving our point for us while trying to be argumentative. : )

ascorbic wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Broken. Deny it all you want, it was broken as all ****. If it actually worked, SE wouldn't be looking at changing it.


So anytime a company makes a new game they are admitting the last one was broken unless they copy every dynamic within? I'd propose that form of logic is what's broken.


Nice try, but no. Now you're just trying to be an ***. Seriously, I "propose" your own logic is broken, sir. There's too much wrong with your above statement to even begin to illustrate how utterly moronic you sounded just there.
#84 May 03 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
ascorbic wrote:
So, in other words, inflated expectations created by an elitist minority drove people into making poor choices. Aren't we having this discussion a couple threads away? That doesn't speak to the topic we're discussing here (too hard to get gil), it speaks towards allowing a high school kid tell you what to do. The people trying to have elite level gear all the way up through their first job put strain on themselves. The game didn't do that to them. Peer pressure did. And I'll bet when all that time gets added they didn't get to 75 any faster (or likely even as fast) than the Adventurer that geared himself suitably for his level without succumbing to every teenagers' whim.


When you've spent a couple of weeks on the steps of the Lower Jeuno mog house with your seek flag up and no invites, you start to look for alternatives that will give you an edge. ****...a couple of nights with no party invites will do that to you...especially when you've tried dilligently to assemble your own parties with no success. When you're reliant on the community to get anything worthwhile done, you start to conform to what you believe the community requires. Downplaying it doesn't change anything. A game built around grinding and group-only progression creates that situation as much as "peer pressure".


Quote:
We also gave our WHMs erase when it dropped. I would be sad to be associated with an LS that wouldn't. Certainly not mandatory to spend an inordinate amount of gil there. And a someone has to buy a BLM scroll because they sold it earlier? Again, I'm not seeing the issue here. Couldn't find a group? COULDN'T? Yeah, I bet BLM's spent millions all the time out of a desire to not communicate with others...


It took me over two months to find a group for that quest. Look, you can argue what could or should have been all day long...I'm telling you how it was, which was broken. At some point you have to set aside what should have been and take a look at the reality of the situation.

Quote:
So you knew a guy who leveled a job to increase the speed in which he merited. How does that apply to Gil being to hard to get? He wanted a faster meriting path than others, and he got it. He didn't need it to level his main job.


I know several people who leveled jobs they didn't like just so that they could do what they wanted to do, and it took them weeks if not months of farming to be able to gear those jobs to what the community held as a standard. Again, when you're reliant on the community to get things done and getting anything done is frequently a tedious pain in the ***, you start trying to stand out so that people will remember you in the hopes that things will get a little less tedious.

Quote:
You knew people who leveled BRD... so they could get rich on BCNMs. He needed to do that to level his main job? No. He wanted an easy method to get rich. If they could afford to pay "exhorbitant prices for Mary's Horn" you'll have a hard time convincing anyone they did so because they were too broke to aptly gear their chosen profession.


What does that say if they're willing to spend a couple of weeks leveling a job they're not interested in and 200-500k for a single item for that job? Hmmm...maybe that that particular route would still get them results faster than their other alternatives? Ahhh...now you're on to something....

Quote:
Quote:
And no, you won't find threads on the WoW boards here complaining about the difficulty of earning gold because the game is tuned so that there are only so many things you "need" gold for, and those costs are covered by simply questing as you level.


Of course you will! Just because the average person should have been able to buy their riding tiers and such doesn't mean they all did. In fact, even if it only takes the average effort, it implies all those with less than average cash generation and saving habits won't. When I first went to WoW very few people had paid the (5k gold i believe) price to get the faster mounts. When I returned about a month before the last expansion still less than half of the people I knew in game had raised the cash. Not that I'm claiming gold generation was hard. I'm simply saying you find these same people in every single MMO. Are you claiming you never have been begged for gold in town before? Happened to me almost every time I spent any real time near an AH. Wish I were you.


That's where you lost me. That's where you crossed the line from, "Someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about" to "Someone who is just making sh*t up as they go along." Find me the thread. Go now. Shoo. Find me a thread on the WoW boards complaining about how hard it is to make gold.

Quote:
Quote:
There are lots of things you can spend gold on, but none of them are ever seen as truly necessary. The best gear is always BoP. Consumables for a week of raiding can be had for an hour or two worth of dailies. I can remember when it would take me four hours to farm enough gil to buy a stack of food in FFXI...12 hours worth of food.


Frankly I ran out of things to buy my last shot at WoW and that was with a toon that began less than two months before and every useful piece of gear I could find (Nope, didn't buy a motorcycle XD ). You're right most everything of use is BoP. You obviously liked it, because it fit your playstyle. You don't seem interested in what anyone with another playstyle might prefer. That was one of the most disappointing aspects of WoW for me. Aside from perhaps making yourself a couple nifty BoP pieces of equipment, what was the use in taking up a craft? And what was its use after those were done? As you've said, average people shouldn't be working too hard for gold... there just isn't much to buy. So crafting becomes a silly time waster and running instances/raids becomes the ONLY form of advancement available. It eliminates the ability to time shift your efforts. In XI, if I couldn't work on advancing one of my goals, I could always make some gil that brought be closer to another object I wanted. I quickly realized after buying up the few pieces worth owning in WoW, all the gold in the world was nothing but a representation of wasted time. If I couldn't run the event I needed, I really couldn't do anything to realize a gear centered goal. That's broken... unless the system favors your predilections.


I have all crafting professions at the grand master level in WoW. If I need a gem or an enchant or food or flasks or a belt buckle or any of the other delicious goodies that keep raiders in tip-top shape, I shuffle some things around and voila! Special delivery from Altville! Crafting in WoW is driven by consumables, not gear. Tell the super rich jewelcrafters that crafting was a silly time waster.

The people in WoW who complained about gold were the people who wasted what they had on frivolous nothings. The people in FFXI who complained about gil were the ones who didn't buy it.

Quote:
So anytime a company makes a new game they are admitting the last one was broken unless they copy every dynamic within? I'd propose that form of logic is what's broken.


Considering that the FFXIV devs have acknowledged that FFXI involved "too much time", I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet they're changing those aspects in FFXIV because they know they were broken in FFXI. But what do the devs know, really?


Edited, May 3rd 2010 8:59am by Aurelius
#85 May 04 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
**
782 posts
Quote:
Find me a thread on the WoW boards complaining about how hard it is to make gold.


It doesn't exist.

Gold is much much much easier to obtain in WoW. If there are threads complaining they aren't legitimate and are people who haven't bothered to try AT ALL.
#86 May 06 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
**
296 posts
Aurelius, I'm always happy to reply to you, simply because unlike others I've chosen to bypass, I know you are actually interested in furthering debate for benefit of all of the future XIV community. For the rest of you, you'll find at least some reference here.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
When you've spent a couple of weeks on the steps of the Lower Jeuno mog house with your seek flag up and no invites, you start to look for alternatives that will give you an edge. ****...a couple of nights with no party invites will do that to you...especially when you've tried dilligently to assemble your own parties with no success. When you're reliant on the community to get anything worthwhile done, you start to conform to what you believe the community requires. Downplaying it doesn't change anything. A game built around grinding and group-only progression creates that situation as much as "peer pressure".


I'm sorry for the difficulty that you've experienced in the FFXI world. Suffices to say, it doesn't take much of a trek through the web to learn that your experience with XI was beyond common. Not to say XI was perfect, or should be emulated in the future. MMOs have evolved and one of the topics I find myself agreeing most with you on the forum is that XIV must Not be XI. But sometimes I think you overstate the problems with XI and this would be such a point. An area that you find unbearably loathsome in XI, hundreds of thousands found - at the very least tolerable - and others found irrelevant. I spent my first job leveling a profession less than adored by the then current thinking of the "theorycrafters" of XI. I didn't hold this as a strike against my profession, or my MMO. I held it as a strike against the ignorance of "prevailing wisdom". And time (and parsers) proved me correct.

I do not for an instant doubt your account of difficulty. Do not doubt the many accounts you've seen on this forum assuring you that your time in XI was not typical. Choosing to believe a minority opinion because it matches your own isn't honest. Let's be frank. Even after the terrible experience you had individually with XI, you're still most interested in SE's new MMO. Certainly even you took something positive away from the experience you've yet to have recreated with subsequent MMOs. I know that's how I feel. I haven't been a regular part of the XI community for about 3 years. But I got enough from XI to know that the almost half dozen MMOs I've dabbled in since were nothing but a distraction til XIV arrived. It could disappoint. But it won't likely do worse than the standard fare popularized now.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
What does that say if they're willing to spend a couple of weeks leveling a job they're not interested in and 200-500k for a single item for that job? Hmmm...maybe that that particular route would still get them results faster than their other alternatives? Ahhh...now you're on to something....


Are you under the impression that every choice you make in an MMO should end up with the same alternatives available to you? Then what was the purpose of the choice? Nothing. You knew people who decided to ride a wave of communal favoritism by placing themselves with highly advantageous jobs based on how the community approached some lucrative non essential BCNM fights. You can claim this was a travesty to them. But few that experienced XI without a BRD main would agree. We were long aware of the opportunities afforded to our BRDs. But I for one never felt limited without that one chance. There wee always other opportunities, and your acquaintances' choices do not define the sum experience available. And, as I mentioned, their ability to afford to quickly deck out their "hobby job" only reinforces that they had in fact already been able to come up with the gil need to level their main. Hardly a condemnation of the system they had already beaten.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
That's where you lost me. That's where you crossed the line from, "Someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about" to "Someone who is just making sh*t up as they go along." Find me the thread. Go now. Shoo. Find me a thread on the WoW boards complaining about how hard it is to make gold.


I'm sorry you couldn't follow. I feel no need to point out for you what. as a current player, should ascertain almost instantly. And Ignoring the fact that beggers line the streets of WoW makes it no less true. Be snide. Be argumentative. Nothing Changes the fact that such needy types, constantly short of and begging for cash exist in every MMO. Your dismissive remarks don't hide that fact. It's obvious to anyone who is both logging into several different MMOs, and honest enough to tell the truth about their experiences within. You don't need to feel protective of WoW. It's doing just fine. Beggars and all.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
There are lots of things you can spend gold on, but none of them are ever seen as truly necessary. The best gear is always BoP. Consumables for a week of raiding can be had for an hour or two worth of dailies. I can remember when it would take me four hours to farm enough gil to buy a stack of food in FFXI...12 hours worth of food.



And then...


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I have all crafting professions at the grand master level in WoW. If I need a gem or an enchant or food or flasks or a belt buckle or any of the other delicious goodies that keep raiders in tip-top shape, I shuffle some things around and voila! Special delivery from Altville! Crafting in WoW is driven by consumables, not gear. Tell the super rich jewelcrafters that crafting was a silly time waster.


This conversation has devolved from an honest discussion about XIV to a "he said, she said" about WoW vs XI. From what I know of you, neither of us is interested in this. It benefits no one, and certainly doesn't further this debate. That being said: The "super rich jewelcrafters" would do exactly what I did after a couple months: sit on useless gold. As you said, there is VERY little needed to buy in WoW. I enjoyed my time there. But that was (IMVHO) it's weakest point. Again, as you pointed out, gold was rendered almost irrelevant in WoW. How does that promote a diverse crafting community, or a thriving player based economy?



The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Considering that the FFXIV devs have acknowledged that FFXI involved "too much time", I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet they're changing those aspects in FFXIV because they know they were broken in FFXI. But what do the devs know, really?


By your "logic", they would be most interested in fixing the horrid mistakes made in their existing MMO. But they don't. Instead, they offer an alternative. A way to enjoy aspects of the FF universe with different requirements and expectations. Show me the quote where the devs say XI was "broken", and I'll concede the point. Until then, I'll assume you're editorializing your own opinion onto what you've read.


#87 May 06 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
**
782 posts
Quote:
urelius, I'm always happy to reply to you, simply because unlike others I've chosen to bypass, I know you are actually interested in furthering debate for benefit of all of the future XIV community. For the rest of you, you'll find at least some reference here.


I read through your whole post and its just a load of BS made to sound nice.

Just because you and a few others had no problem with having to do things way above and beyond what many would find utterly ridiculous doesn't mean it's not broken. The ONLY way to be financially secure in FFXI is to be extremely lucky with high value drops (There was really nothing in between the "omg i can go rebuild my buffer xp for a while, yet again, without worrying about cash" and the "oh, more junk? Well, no room on the AH or any of the twelve mules I was forced to create so NPC it goes" drops), in a large LS that divides all income between members, or by spending all of your in game time farming those seconds drops and paying out the *** in RL money just for the AH and storage space to sell it all.

I really truly feel the major downfall in the FFXI economy was the limitation on AH spaces, crafting was completely ruined as you couldn't list and sell all the things you needed to create just to gain .1 (one tenth) level. Honestly when you could have to make 24-48+ non-stackable items when you can list 7 at a time what are you really supposed to do, the only option was to NPC it and take huge losses? If people played the way the devs thought and slowed things down, I'd be highly surprised if there were ANY level 100 crafter today.

This are just things broken in the economy. I haven't even touched on how people are pigeonholed to the "community" to follow strict standards and stupid requirements. Why should every last inventory slot have to hold a pieces of specific armor to use during specific spells. Part of the tactics in a fight should not be, "which pieces of equipment will I leave in my MH."

Edited, May 6th 2010 7:00am by windexy

Edited, May 6th 2010 7:03am by windexy
#88 May 06 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
***
1,446 posts
My hope is that gil is only a secondary element to the game and not the primary source of obtaining equipment. I would like to see a badge system and possibly even progression style upgrading in FFXIV similar to WoW. Of course there can always be those pieces of equipment that aren't absolutely necessary but give you a slight advantage that only the hardcore can obtain (think 310% mounts in WoW) but will eventually made more easily available to the general public as the progression moves forward.

I'd really like to see gil used for only minor things such as potions, maybe some crafting items and not required things but things that help you level a or progress with a small advantage rather than be a driving force behind a user created economy.
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