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#1 Apr 14 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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I was reviewing either a video or screens of gameplay, definitely from Famitsu or another official source, and I noticed "b**stard" and discussions of lady's undergarments getting thrown around. I wonder if SE would consider making an MMO with a potential "M" rating in FFXIV, and if so, what that means for the fanbase. I am definitely a fan of more mature themes being a part of the day-to-day, as long as things aren't overly serious and depressing.

Thoughts?
#2 Apr 14 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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******* sword?
#3 Apr 14 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I remember right, there were cutscenes with stronger language in FFXI. Not anything really harsh but I was suprised by the language before, it's just a sign of the times. Plus, keep in mind, they make it very known that ratings can change when you go online because of the dummies who have to bring a ton of curse words to the game cuz they're mommy will wash they're mouth out if they heard them say it.
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#4 Apr 14 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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They might push the bar as far as they can with the T rating but I doubt they'll go for M. A lot of developers try their best to avoid the M rating because it potentially lowers sales numbers due to possibly alienating the under 17 audience. The same is done with movies and the PG-13 and R ratings.

Of course I wouldn't mind if it was rated M.
#5 Apr 14 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
Westyle wrote:
They might push the bar as far as they can with the T rating but I doubt they'll go for M. A lot of developers try their best to avoid the M rating because it potentially lowers sales numbers due to possibly alienating the under 17 audience. The same is done with movies and the PG-13 and R ratings.

Of course I wouldn't mind if it was rated M.


Maybe SE wants to alienate the younger crowd. (Not saying they do, just a hypothetical.)
#6 Apr 14 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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There was some controversy a little ways back about the female models having visible camel toe in their "undergarment" dress. Don't know if it's something that'll make its way into the final game or not.

Me personally, a little mature content is fine, but I don't really know if this game is really the appropriate context for too much of it. The game's style skews towards younger audiences, what with its cute, teddy-bear aesthetics (moogles, chocobos, or the entire Lalafell race, for example). At the least, including overly sexualized character models would just be tacky and induce some eye-rolls. At worst, it would give it a creepy, @#%^phile-y vibe to me.

I'm not really worried though.

EDIT: Why can't you say p e d o p h i l e again? I've been away from the forums for too long.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 11:14am by Eske
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#7 Apr 14 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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I can remember a few characters throughout Final Fantasy who were depicted in a sexual way....I had a slight cartoon crush on Lulu from FFX and Rikku wasn't bad either
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#8 Apr 14 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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BigcountryinTX wrote:
I can remember a few characters throughout Final Fantasy who were depicted in a sexual way....I had a slight cartoon crush on Lulu from FFX and Rikku wasn't bad either


Like I said, I'm not worried about it. Depicting characters in a sexual manner is fine, and I don't think that anything in those games really pushed the envelope.

The camel toe thing did make me cringe though, I'll admit. In my eyes, that's pretty weird, if only because of the context of the game and its age bracket.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 11:23am by Eske
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#9 Apr 14 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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*&^@! double post...

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 11:22am by Eske
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#10 Apr 14 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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MMOs that go for the "M" rating fail miserably.
#11 Apr 14 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I know when I was younger...6-7 years ago and I couldnt buy M rated games my parent's wouldn't let me but now my younger siblings have no issues getting them to crack. The younger generation is generally a bunch of whiners and they get a lot of what they want. Most likely their parents are buying the game for them anyways and if they were able to get Halo or CoD or Bioshock or so many other games then XIV won't be much of an issue either. I'm not for overly sexualized characters, though I could ignore it.
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MMOs that go for the "M" rating fail miserably.

Imo MMO's that don't start with FFXI or WoW(on a pure sales PoV, WoW is pure fail otherwise) fail miserably. Maybe EQ also
#12 Apr 14 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
There was some controversy a little ways back about the female models having visible camel toe in their "undergarment" dress. Don't know if it's something that'll make its way into the final game or not.

I think that had something to do with why they changed the way Mithras look with /sit.
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#13 Apr 14 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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So you want **** and swearing in Final Fantasy? I don't see the point.
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#14 Apr 14 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Default
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So you want **** and swearing in Final Fantasy? I don't see the point.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. But yes, that is basically what I'm saying. Maybe there's a little more to it too.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 1:51pm by Callipho
#15 Apr 14 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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MMOs that go for the "M" rating fail miserably.


While that is generaly true it's not allways because of that M rating that they fail. AoC had other problems for example, it's M rating was not one of it's issues and I hear it's still got enough of a stable player base to make money now that they have ironed out most of the issues. If it had luanched with a compitant dev team (from what I have been told) it never would have fallen as low as it did.

Back on topic though.
I don't think it is worth pushing an MMO past the T rating unless you are truely going for a mature game to sart with, grafic violence and possable nudity or sexual themes. Most MMOs get enough of this through the machinations of it's player base anyway.
It just seems silly to me for anyone to try to make an MMO with an M rating over something as small as language and a few **** apointments on character models.
#16 Apr 14 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
Yogtheterrible wrote:
MMOs that go for the "M" rating fail miserably.


They don't fail because they have an M rating. They fail because the gameplay is lacking in some other area. Even high-res pixelated bewbs in AoC couldn't make up for its deficiencies elsewhere. SE isn't stupid. They know that the majority of the gaming population is still comprised of males, they know that a little *** appeal ads flavor to a game, and they also seem to have figured out that slightly more brash dialogue can also ad an element of flavor to a game. Profanity in games right now are still at the point where you hear/read it and often still think to yourself, "Did they really just say that...???" Doesn't mean a developer is pushing for a mature rating specifically for the sake of saying they have a mature rating. Looking at a game with a mature rating that has suffered in sales/subscriptions and even implying that the 'M' rating was in any way causal to lackluster sales/subscriber retention is pretty shaky logic.
#17 Apr 14 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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At the least, including overly sexualized character models would just be tacky and induce some eye-rolls. At worst, it would give it a creepy, @#%^phile-y vibe to me.

How would it possibly do that? How do sexualized adult characters give that vibe? I can't stand it when a loaded word like that is overused.

You're talking like the game is targeted at nine-year-olds. The art style is what I would call "cleaned up realism," not cartoony or "teddy bear." The chocobos we've seen are hardly cuddly, there's no sign of moogles, and Lalafell are aimed far more at women than children. As I recall, the minimum player age in FFXI was 13 and I'm sure the average demographic was college-aged at least. Kids don't have the freedom or finances to spend much time in an MMO.

The people panicking over a bit of cameltoe are the ones who need to grow up. It's an anatomical fact that tight clothes will take certain shapes around human bodies, and it's natural that as graphical detail improved this would be depicted. Nobody freaks out when male characters have a realistic bulge down there, because it would look weirder if they didn't. Don't give us Ken and Barbie dolls.

Anyway, the game isn't going to have an M rating. Not in a million years - that's not the audience FF goes for, and the series has only toned itself down over the last decade.
#18 Apr 14 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Holy Crap Borkachev I am 100% with you. I feel like the term pedophilia is thrown around like candy on Halloween. If you can not handle cameltoe in your videogames do not leave the house. Women all over the country display them. People need to get over the human body and stop being prudes.

OP: I wish that the game was a bit more adult like sometimes. Personally I think there should be some swearing when an enemy army comes in and crushes your town. In the beginning movie to FFXI you watch as a young boy loses his sister, who is the only family he has left. I feel like that is a LOT more hardcore than seeing cameltoe.

I will never understand why *** is so bad but violence is perfectly fine for children.
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#19 Apr 14 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Mature Themes doesn't necessarily mean anything sexual. It's just most games can't figure out how to make a mature story. They get the M because their devs were lazy and decided lolboobs was the way to go.

In the end, if FFXIV had a mature rating, it would be because of the story and the behavior of the community.

In other words, I hope there is story in the game other than right and wrong. Black and white is really a sort of a 10 year old mentality. I want to see the game have more choices on how to proceed, though all having one fateful outcome.

Something like that paladin AF quest where you give the fishing rod back to the boy on the prequest. That quest isn't listed as a quest anywhere, and most people wouldn't have figured it out right away unless they read a guide. But enough people felt for the boy to give him his fishing rod back because the father was being a douche that people with a paladin mentality got the quest much sooner than others.

Dunno if that makes much sense, but there are some of those little things that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to do were available. And in the end, they had an effect on your progression through ffxi. I would want this game to end up being that you can trigger things just by behaving in a certain way in general. Another example is a low level bastok mission where you are to take sealed orders to a gate guard or something. You can go into your inventory and read the sealed orders, but get scolded by the guard if you do. i'm not sure how much this affects how much you gain from the quest, but that is another thing that they did interesting in xi.

One last example is a quest where you bring a shopping list to a miner in the zeruhn mines. Whether you were nosy and looked at the list changes the outcome and time needed to complete the quest. I really liked those aspects of xi, and hope that they expand upon them and make such situations more complex and cause more variety in quest requirements and time.
#20 Apr 14 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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I will never understand why *** is so bad but violence is perfectly fine for children.


Totally with you here. Nothing against football, but how is Janet Jackson accidentally flashing a boob more dangerous for children to see than grown men beating the crap out of each other on the field. As a society, we've embraced an unhealthy relationship with violence and made the "natural act" a taboo subject.

It's a boob for God's sake.

But I digress.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 4:39pm by Callipho
#21 Apr 14 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
Moonkissed wrote:
Holy Crap Borkachev I am 100% with you. I feel like the term @#%^philia is thrown around like candy on Halloween. If you can not handle cameltoe in your videogames do not leave the house. Women all over the country display them. People need to get over the human body and stop being prudes.

OP: I wish that the game was a bit more adult like sometimes. Personally I think there should be some swearing when an enemy army comes in and crushes your town. In the beginning movie to FFXI you watch as a young boy loses his sister, who is the only family he has left.


I know that for me, personally, if I were to look over my fence and see an army of orcs with siege towers and behemoths heading my way, the first words that would come to mind would exceed the limits of a 'T' rating ;D

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I feel like that is a LOT more hardcore than seeing cameltoe.

I will never understand why *** is so bad but violence is perfectly fine for children.


It's the 21st century and some people are still a little uptight about ***. Women who are comfortable with their sexuality are sluts and whores, men are pigs (regardless of any other conditional traits), and acknowledging that you're not particularly bothered by a little innuendo or subtle visual references to genital forms is apparently about the same as saying you're a social degenerate and likely a sexual predator. Of course, sometimes I think people take issue with mild sexual references and course language because a long time ago their grandma told them it was dirty (only to wait until the grandkids were gone to run off and ravage grandpa like a lion on a side of well aged beef.)

Also, ******.

That is all.
#22 Apr 14 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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as the years go by aurelius, your posts just get funnier and more interesting to read.

but yeah, FF14 will have mature themes. its a given. itll deal with love, ***, romance, death, violence, and all that good stuff that makes for awesome storytelling.

in the end tho, i blame tipper gore. shes the one that pushed for the implementation of this **** rating system that has about as much scientific background and objectivity as the BMI scale.
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#23 Apr 14 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Borkachev wrote:
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At the least, including overly sexualized character models would just be tacky and induce some eye-rolls. At worst, it would give it a creepy, @#%^phile-y vibe to me.

How would it possibly do that? How do sexualized adult characters give that vibe? I can't stand it when a loaded word like that is overused.

You're talking like the game is targeted at nine-year-olds. The art style is what I would call "cleaned up realism," not cartoony or "teddy bear." The chocobos we've seen are hardly cuddly, there's no sign of moogles, and Lalafell are aimed far more at women than children. As I recall, the minimum player age in FFXI was 13 and I'm sure the average demographic was college-aged at least. Kids don't have the freedom or finances to spend much time in an MMO.

The people panicking over a bit of cameltoe are the ones who need to grow up. It's an anatomical fact that tight clothes will take certain shapes around human bodies, and it's natural that as graphical detail improved this would be depicted. Nobody freaks out when male characters have a realistic bulge down there, because it would look weirder if they didn't. Don't give us Ken and Barbie dolls.

Anyway, the game isn't going to have an M rating. Not in a million years - that's not the audience FF goes for, and the series has only toned itself down over the last decade.


Somebody always flips out whenever I suggest that I'm not comfortable with the camel toe thing...every single time. And every time it happens, I always get painted as some right-wing ultraconservative hysteric. Sheesh.

Look, in the absolute worst case scenario that I can possibly imagine: Say I'm having a conversation with a 13 year old girl who's in my linkshell. If that's happening, I'd prefer it if her character didn't have an animated ******. That's just me. And that's really as far as I'm going here.

Aurelius wrote:
It's the 21st century and some people are still a little uptight about ***. Women who are comfortable with their sexuality are sluts and whores, men are pigs (regardless of any other conditional traits), and acknowledging that you're not particularly bothered by a little innuendo or subtle visual references to genital forms is apparently about the same as saying you're a social degenerate and likely a sexual predator. Of course, sometimes I think people take issue with mild sexual references and course language because a long time ago their grandma told them it was dirty (only to wait until the grandkids were gone to run off and ravage grandpa like a lion on a side of well aged beef.)


Though that's all undoubtedly true, all I ever see here is the opposite. In these forums, suggest that you're a little uncomfortable with sexual themes in a game that children can, and will play, is akin to saying that all women should wear berkas, that people caught kissing in public should be stoned to death, and that children shouldn't be taught *** ed. Somebody inevitably uses it as a chance to get on their soap box about how hypocritical and sexually repressed the US is.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 5:25pm by Eske
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#24 Apr 14 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Look, in the absolute worst case scenario that I can possibly imagine: Say I'm having a conversation with a 13 year old girl who's in my linkshell. If that's happening, I'd prefer it if her character didn't have an animated ******. That's just me. And that's really as far as I'm going here.


dont take this the wrong way, but im going to tell to you what ive told to my nephews and i tell to the middle school boys i work with;

keep your eyes above the chest. i know theres lots of cool stuff thats tempting to look at down there, but its a sign of respect to a girl when you can keep your attention focused on her face. just dont stare at her nose or her chin; she might get self-conscious.

now, im not implying you dont respect women or anything, but really, the onus for this is on you. if i find something on the internet i dont like, i can hit the back button or close the window. if i see a billboard i dont like out in public i can choose to look at it and fume powerlessly in my anger, or i can look away, content in my knowledge that i can choose what to pay attention to and what to ignore. you can do the same; nobody is forcing you to look at the animated ****** but yourself (unless you have some kind of kinky relationship with your spouse wherein s/he forces you to look at the crotches of video game characters at gun point. but hey, whatever floats your boat, im not here to judge, this is america after all).

Quote:
Though that's all undoubtedly true, all I ever see here is the opposite. In these forums, suggest that you're a little uncomfortable with sexual themes in a game that children can, and will play, is akin to saying that everyone should wear berkas that people caught kissing in public should be stoned to death, and that children shouldn't be taught *** ed. Somebody inevitably uses it as a chance to get on their soap box about how hypocritical and sexually repressed the US is.


theres nothing necessarily wrong with being uncomfortable with something, but when its something that is literally a species-wide perpetuation tool, it begs the question....where does that discomfort come from?
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#25 Apr 14 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
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Look, in the absolute worst case scenario that I can possibly imagine: Say I'm having a conversation with a 13 year old girl who's in my linkshell. If that's happening, I'd prefer it if her character didn't have an animated ******. That's just me. And that's really as far as I'm going here.


dont take this the wrong way, but im going to tell to you what ive told to my nephews and i tell to the middle school boys i work with;

keep your eyes above the chest. i know theres lots of cool stuff thats tempting to look at down there, but its a sign of respect to a girl when you can keep your attention focused on her face. just dont stare at her nose or her chin; she might get self-conscious.

now, im not implying you dont respect women or anything, but really, the onus for this is on you. if i find something on the internet i dont like, i can hit the back button or close the window. if i see a billboard i dont like out in public i can choose to look at it and fume powerlessly in my anger, or i can look away, content in my knowledge that i can choose what to pay attention to and what to ignore. you can do the same; nobody is forcing you to look at the animated ****** but yourself (unless you have some kind of kinky relationship with your spouse wherein s/he forces you to look at the crotches of video game characters at gun point. but hey, whatever floats your boat, im not here to judge, this is america after all).

Quote:
Though that's all undoubtedly true, all I ever see here is the opposite. In these forums, suggest that you're a little uncomfortable with sexual themes in a game that children can, and will play, is akin to saying that everyone should wear berkas that people caught kissing in public should be stoned to death, and that children shouldn't be taught *** ed. Somebody inevitably uses it as a chance to get on their soap box about how hypocritical and sexually repressed the US is.


theres nothing necessarily wrong with being uncomfortable with something, but when its something that is literally a species-wide perpetuation tool, it begs the question....where does that discomfort come from?


Obviously I'm not talking about oggling...I'm talking about the principle behind it. And please, don't hide behind the "it's anatomically correct" case...walk out in public nude sometime and see how far that gets you. My point being that it's not an instant-win button for this argument. Just because something is anatomically correct, or scientifically accurate, does not mean that it is universally acceptable in all contexts.
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#26 Apr 14 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope they do add a more "mature" element to it. I couldn't care less if there was anything sexual in the game, but I'd like a more of a gritty feel. Maybe add some blood, violence, and course language? I mean, I couldn't stand FFXI cutscenes, the dialogue always felt like something from a daytime soap opera to me.
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#27 Apr 14 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Please no. If the horn dogs want to look at soft core **** while playing an MMO, feel free to modify the dats yourself and leave it out of the original game.
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#28 Apr 14 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
Somebody always flips out whenever I suggest that I'm not comfortable with the camel toe thing...every single time. And every time it happens, I always get painted as some right-wing ultraconservative hysteric. Sheesh.


Just an idea...when you're discussing sexuality as it pertains to video games, leave the pedophile bit out of it. Nothing screams uptight about things like that than linking generic sexual references to child rape.
#29 Apr 14 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only AureliusSir wrote:
Eske wrote:
Somebody always flips out whenever I suggest that I'm not comfortable with the camel toe thing...every single time. And every time it happens, I always get painted as some right-wing ultraconservative hysteric. Sheesh.


Just an idea...when you're discussing sexuality as it pertains to video games, leave the pedophile bit out of it. Nothing screams uptight about things like that than linking generic sexual references to child rape.


Fair enough; there's probably a better way of expressing what I'm going for, but I still can't quite figure out a way to elaborate it.

I was serious by the way, why is it blocked by the filter? I feel like it had to do with folks in the Asylum calling one of the mods it incessantly until he got frustrated and blocked it (in fact, I remember him coding it so that it would write a completely different word)....but I don't know if I'm completely off-base with that.
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#30 Apr 14 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I think probability far favors FFXIV receiving a T rating over an M rating, and in my opinion that is fitting, appropriate, and beneficial.

I'm quite possibly the furthest thing from a prude when it comes to content in multimedia, but I see no reason or benefit to having content that would necessarily up the rating of the game. Adding gore, ***, and vulgarity to FFXIV wouldn't make the game better; it'd just be a thinly veiled shock marketing trick to sell the game as something different to thirteen year old kids trapped in twenty-seven year old bodies.

Silent Hill is an example that merits an M rating. The mature themes in Silent Hill are a necessary part of game play that makes the game better. More "mature themes" in FFXIV would clash with the atmosphere and be completely unnecessary. It'd be like making Goombas explode in a bloody mess in Mario games.
Eske wrote:
I was serious by the way, why is it blocked by the filter? I feel like it had to do with folks in the Asylum calling one of the mods it incessantly until he got frustrated and blocked it (in fact, I remember him coding it so that it would write a completely different word)....but I don't know if I'm completely off-base with that.

That was probably a contributor, but there are other reasons. I won't go into the details as it is a touchy subject, but it's probably best to avoid jokes about that particular subject even in the asylum, though arbitrarily everything else is game.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 6:07pm by Allegory
#31 Apr 14 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
Quote:
Look, in the absolute worst case scenario that I can possibly imagine: Say I'm having a conversation with a 13 year old girl who's in my linkshell. If that's happening, I'd prefer it if her character didn't have an animated ******. That's just me. And that's really as far as I'm going here.


dont take this the wrong way, but im going to tell to you what ive told to my nephews and i tell to the middle school boys i work with;

keep your eyes above the chest. i know theres lots of cool stuff thats tempting to look at down there, but its a sign of respect to a girl when you can keep your attention focused on her face. just dont stare at her nose or her chin; she might get self-conscious.

now, im not implying you dont respect women or anything, but really, the onus for this is on you.

Well said, but I do think some of the responsibility in this scenario is on the girl, and her parents. There won't be any cameltoe showing unless her character is standing around in her underwear, which is her decision.

Quote:
I was serious by the way, why is it blocked by the filter?

No idea, but it's frigging ridiculous. It's a scientific term, for god's sake.
#32 Apr 14 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Eske wrote:
I was serious by the way, why is it blocked by the filter? I feel like it had to do with folks in the Asylum calling one of the mods it incessantly until he got frustrated and blocked it (in fact, I remember him coding it so that it would write a completely different word)....but I don't know if I'm completely off-base with that.

That was probably a contributor, but there are other reasons. I won't go into the details as it is a touchy subject, but it's probably best to avoid jokes about that particular subject even in the asylum, though arbitrarily everything else is game.


Enough said, thanks. Good to know that my memory isn't failing me. Despite my post count, I've been around these forums for longer than i'd like to admit :P

Allegory wrote:
I think probability far favors FFXIV receiving a T rating over an M rating, and in my opinion that is fitting, appropriate, and beneficial.

I'm quite possibly the furthest thing from a prude when it comes to content in multimedia, but I see no reason or benefit to having content that would necessarily up the rating of the game. Adding gore, ***, and vulgarity to FFXIV wouldn't make the game better; it'd just be a thinly veiled shock marketing trick to sell the game as something different to thirteen year old kids trapped in twenty-seven year old bodies.

Silent Hill is an example that merits an M rating. The mature themes in Silent Hill are a necessary part of game play that makes the game better. More "mature themes" in FFXIV would clash with the atmosphere and be completely unnecessary. It'd be like making Goombas explode in a bloody mess in Mario games.


I think you just summed up the point that I was failing so miserably to make. People seem to see the inclusion of such things and say "it's natural and accurate, what's the harm?". I ask "what is the developer's motivation for including this?" and don't see a simple altruistic desire to portray the human body accurately.
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#33 Apr 14 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Just an idea...when you're discussing sexuality as it pertains to video games, leave the @#%^phile bit out of it. Nothing screams uptight about things like that than linking generic sexual references to child rape.


this. its a slippery slope that no one needs to go down.

who knows, it could be a cultural thing. in europe (germany specifically, but magazine has spread to other parts of europe) talking about *** with teens and the idea of teen (or pre-teen) sexuality isnt nearly the huge issue it is in america. one magazine, arguably the most popular teen magazine in germany, even goes so far as to publish nude photos of 16 and 17-year olds. brooke shields even posed for photos in this way when she was 16. they wernt sexual or provocative; they never are. if anything they are more of a "here, this is what it looks like" sort of thing. but the idea of that happening in america would cause the heads of several million people to asplode.

that might be what it is in this case. perhaps the rendering of the camel toe is an issue of anatomical correctness between the two sexes in japanese culture. an indication of being female if you will, just as the "pants bulge" is an indication of being male. nothing necessarily sexual about it, at least not in the suggestive way. its a body part like any other.

edit: just saw this -

Quote:
I think you just summed up the point that I was failing so miserably to make. People seem to see the inclusion of such things and say "it's natural and accurate, what's the harm?". I ask "what is the developer's motivation for including this?" and don't see a simple altruistic desire to portray the human body accurately.


as games get more and more graphically sophisticated, its coming to a point where character models are expected to be more realistic. i think that alone is a big contributor. i also think, again, its a combination of cultural things and differentiation between the sexes. women will have boobs and the camel toe, men will have the pants bulge (and possibly go shirtless in their "underwear"). it may not be something you see right away, or even consciously acknowledge in some cases, but youll notice it, and itll make the experience that much richer.

also, to be fair, i dont think it was a developer thing so much as its an artistic thing. generally artists strive to show something in all of its glory (look at any manner of renaissance nude art), limited only by the constraints of their medium. the medium of video games as an art form is now allowing a level of detail heretofore unknown to game artists, and i think theyre using it to its full extent.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 4:30pm by Quor
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#34 Apr 14 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I can offer oppinions about where the feeling of discomfort might come from, culturaly at least. That doesn't make you some kind of ultra conservitive, just makes you more like the average American.
Though the percentage of americans who are actualy comfy with sexuality in general is up in some areas we are still a very repressed culture.
#35 Apr 14 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
that might be what it is in this case. perhaps the rendering of the camel toe is an issue of anatomical correctness between the two sexes in japanese culture. an indication of being female if you will, just as the "pants bulge" is an indication of being male. nothing necessarily sexual about it, at least not in the suggestive way. its a body part like any other.


Rest assured, that simply isn't the case. Japan has had a unique view on sexuality for a long time, loaded with contradictory attitudes and wide ranging consequences, and as a whole, very different from Europe. It's a country with starkly contrasting polarities, in many different aspects of society and culture. Knowing it's history and contemporary stance on sexuality, your take on it just isn't realistic. I mean no offense, really. Just had to shoot that one down.

EDIT: to add

Quor wrote:
as games get more and more graphically sophisticated, its coming to a point where character models are expected to be more realistic. i think that alone is a big contributor. i also think, again, its a combination of cultural things and differentiation between the sexes. women will have boobs and the camel toe, men will have the pants bulge (and possibly go shirtless in their "underwear"). it may not be something you see right away, or even consciously acknowledge in some cases, but youll notice it, and itll make the experience that much richer.

also, to be fair, i dont think it was a developer thing so much as its an artistic thing. generally artists strive to show something in all of its glory (look at any manner of renaissance nude art), limited only by the constraints of their medium. the medium of video games as an art form is now allowing a level of detail heretofore unknown to game artists, and i think theyre using it to its full extent.


I'm sorry, but that stance strikes me as a bit naive. SE is a corporation, and as such, is wont to make design decisions that increase attention and profits. Suggesting that it's a decision motivated purely by a desire for accuracy is, well...misguided. And the allusion to fine nude art is a serious stretch.

Recognize the corporate machinations at work, man! Fight the powers that be!

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 7:32pm by Eske

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 7:37pm by Eske
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#36 Apr 14 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Rest assured, that simply isn't the case. Japan has had a unique view on sexuality for a long time, loaded with contradictory attitudes and wide ranging consequences. It's a country with starkly contrasting dual poles, in many different aspects of society and culture. Knowing it's history and contemporary stance on sexuality, your take on it just isn't realistic. No offense, really. I find this stuff fascinating.


SE strikes me as a rather forward-thinking company. given their preference towards including and supporting strong characters of both sexes, you can tell that theyre not exactly bound by traditional japanese stereotypes (yuna, rikku, lulu, shantotto, lightning, fang, terra...examples of strong women reach back all the way to FF2). while im sure they wont be breaking any major taboos so to speak (that is to say, they wont be getting in trouble with the law) i get the feeling that SE will gently push at and expand the envelope as time goes by. their history speaks for itself in that regard.
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#37 Apr 14 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
as games get more and more graphically sophisticated, its coming to a point where character models are expected to be more realistic. i think that alone is a big contributor. i also think, again, its a combination of cultural things and differentiation between the sexes. women will have boobs and the camel toe, men will have the pants bulge (and possibly go shirtless in their "underwear"). it may not be something you see right away, or even consciously acknowledge in some cases, but youll notice it, and itll make the experience that much richer.

There is some push towards realism certainly, but there are also several games that are stylized and where such details aren't necessary or appropriate. Mario has no bulge, even those his overalls often appear to be snugly fitting. Pikachu is either exceptionally poorly endowed or asexual. Midna from Twilight Princess lacks anything but the vague curvy representations of sexual identity.

Highly noticeable bulges and extreme camel toes aren't that realistic either. Here is a google image of men in biker shorts; they're not hiding a clutch of bananas in there. When our characters are wearing full plate armor or draped in caster robes it should be even less noticeable.
#38 Apr 14 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
SE strikes me as a rather forward-thinking company. given their preference towards including and supporting strong characters of both sexes, you can tell that theyre not exactly bound by traditional japanese stereotypes (yuna, rikku, lulu, shantotto, lightning, fang, terra...examples of strong women reach back all the way to FF2). while im sure they wont be breaking any major taboos so to speak (that is to say, they wont be getting in trouble with the law) i get the feeling that SE will gently push at and expand the envelope as time goes by. their history speaks for itself in that regard.


Hmm...I'm not as willing to grant them the status of "breaking traditional japanese stereotypes". SE's portrayals seem fairly in-line with what has become standard in Japan. Strong female characters are quite prevalent there. I'd say that it's one of the areas where Japan has a bit of an edge on the US, where I'd argue that our female leads are often "superficially strong".

That's not to say that they don't have contradictory portrayals there; like I said, they're a country of contrasting styles in my eyes.

Why make excuses and rationalizations for SE? Why not just accept the possibility that they'll make a move that's in service to a predominantly male fanbase that won't turn down some visible p***y?

That's what's happening, folks. And I should restate: that in and of itself is fine! But if that's the route they're going, I think that an M rating would be more appropriate, and I just don't see it meshing with the rest of the game's aesthetics. I don't have a problem with portrayals of sexuality in games, at all. But I do believe in the principle behind product ratings for a game with P2P interactions. And I think that the thinking behind including camel toe in FFXIV doesn't gel with the rest of the game's context.
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#39 Apr 14 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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There is some push towards realism certainly, but there are also several games that are stylized and where such details aren't necessary or appropriate. Mario has no bulge, even those his overalls often appear to be snugly fitting. Pikachu is either exceptionally poorly endowed or asexual. Midna from Twilight Princess lacks anything but the vague curvy representations of sexual identity.


of course. ultiamtely the style of the game determines how it fits. SE has chosen in FF11 (and in 14 it seems) for a more realistic approach. mass effect does the same. WoW has a more cartoony feel, so you dont see any of that kind of stuff. my experience has been that as graphics become more sophisticated, games that go for realism in terms of the humanoid character designs tend to include as much detail as possible, down to facial hair, arm hair, scale coloration or what have you.

Quote:
Why make excuses and rationalizations for SE? Why not just accept the possibility that they'll make a move that's in service to a predominantly male fanbase that won't turn down some visible p***y?


rationalizations? why not just an alternate viewpoint? after all, how do you know that this:

Quote:
That's what's happening, folks. And I should restate: that in and of itself is fine! But if that's the route they're going, I think that an M rating would be more appropriate, and I just don't see it meshing with the rest of the game's aesthetics. I don't have a problem with portrayals of sexuality in games, at all. But I do believe in the principle behind product ratings for a game with P2P interactions. And I think that the thinking behind including camel toe in FFXIV doesn't gel with the rest of the game's context.


is whats actually happening? maybe it is just a ploy to spice up the male demographic numbers (as if the cute cate girls wernt enough). in all likelihood its a bit of both; some realism thats rather pleasing to a mans eyes (and some womens too).
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#40 Apr 14 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
Quote:
Why make excuses and rationalizations for SE? Why not just accept the possibility that they'll make a move that's in service to a predominantly male fanbase that won't turn down some visible p***y?


rationalizations? why not just an alternate viewpoint? after all, how do you know that this:

Quote:
That's what's happening, folks. And I should restate: that in and of itself is fine! But if that's the route they're going, I think that an M rating would be more appropriate, and I just don't see it meshing with the rest of the game's aesthetics. I don't have a problem with portrayals of sexuality in games, at all. But I do believe in the principle behind product ratings for a game with P2P interactions. And I think that the thinking behind including camel toe in FFXIV doesn't gel with the rest of the game's context.


is whats actually happening? maybe it is just a ploy to spice up the male demographic numbers (as if the cute cate girls wernt enough). in all likelihood its a bit of both; some realism thats rather pleasing to a mans eyes (and some womens too).


First, where do you live that visible camel toe is a daily reality? I'd love to move there.

Second, and more importantly: I'm confused. You ask me how I know that portion of my text that you quoted, when it's clearly just my opinion. Then you say "maybe it's just a ploy to spice up the male demographic numbers", which is exactly what I was suggesting.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we actually agree, other than that bit about "realism".

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 8:22pm by Eske
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#41 Apr 14 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Mature Themes doesn't necessarily mean anything sexual. It's just most games can't figure out how to make a mature story. They get the M because their devs were lazy and decided lolboobs was the way to go.

In the end, if FFXIV had a mature rating, it would be because of the story and the behavior of the community.

In other words, I hope there is story in the game other than right and wrong. Black and white is really a sort of a 10 year old mentality. I want to see the game have more choices on how to proceed, though all having one fateful outcome.

Something like that paladin AF quest where you give the fishing rod back to the boy on the prequest. That quest isn't listed as a quest anywhere, and most people wouldn't have figured it out right away unless they read a guide. But enough people felt for the boy to give him his fishing rod back because the father was being a douche that people with a paladin mentality got the quest much sooner than others.

Dunno if that makes much sense, but there are some of those little things that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to do were available. And in the end, they had an effect on your progression through ffxi. I would want this game to end up being that you can trigger things just by behaving in a certain way in general. Another example is a low level bastok mission where you are to take sealed orders to a gate guard or something. You can go into your inventory and read the sealed orders, but get scolded by the guard if you do. i'm not sure how much this affects how much you gain from the quest, but that is another thing that they did interesting in xi.

One last example is a quest where you bring a shopping list to a miner in the zeruhn mines. Whether you were nosy and looked at the list changes the outcome and time needed to complete the quest. I really liked those aspects of xi, and hope that they expand upon them and make such situations more complex and cause more variety in quest requirements and time.


Metalsmith, this is really mainly what I had in mind too, adding another level of depth to the characters and storyline in order to allow us to immerse ourselves better in the game, which in many cases requires dealing with a more mature non "black and white" theme.
#42 Apr 14 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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First, where do you live that visible camel toe is a daily reality? I'd love to move there.


southern california. i do see it every day, and several times per day as the weather gets warmer. i dont even notice it anymore.

Quote:
Second, and more importantly: I'm confused. You ask me how I know that portion of my text that you quoted, when it's clearly just my opinion. Then you say "maybe it's just a ploy to spice up the male demographic numbers", which is exactly what I was suggesting.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we actually agree, other than that bit about "realism".


we do. im playing devils advocate mostly. its a good way to keep your mind open.
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#43 Apr 14 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
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First, where do you live that visible camel toe is a daily reality? I'd love to move there.


southern california. i do see it every day, and several times per day as the weather gets warmer. i dont even notice it anymore.


I'm jealous :P But obviously I don't think that's a solid case for why depicting it in FFXIV would be realistic.

Quor wrote:
Eske wrote:
Second, and more importantly: I'm confused. You ask me how I know that portion of my text that you quoted, when it's clearly just my opinion. Then you say "maybe it's just a ploy to spice up the male demographic numbers", which is exactly what I was suggesting.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we actually agree, other than that bit about "realism".


we do. im playing devils advocate mostly. its a good way to keep your mind open.


S'all good. Helps keep the forums entertaining.

I suppose we should stop hijacking the OP's thread, heh.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 9:21pm by Eske
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#44 Apr 14 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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MetalSmith wrote:
Something like that paladin AF quest where you give the fishing rod back to the boy on the prequest. That quest isn't listed as a quest anywhere, and most people wouldn't have figured it out right away unless they read a guide. But enough people felt for the boy to give him his fishing rod back because the father was being a douche that people with a paladin mentality got the quest much sooner than others.

Dunno if that makes much sense, but there are some of those little things that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to do were available. And in the end, they had an effect on your progression through ffxi. I would want this game to end up being that you can trigger things just by behaving in a certain way in general.


This made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside because I was one of those people who gave him back the fishing rod. Aweeee.

Back on topic.

I think people are relying way too much on the rating in general. It's important to remember what it represents: it's a letter/number placed on the videogame by the society-elected government that basically says "If you say **** more than twice you have to make it PG-13/T. If you say 'the F word' it has to be rated R/M. If you show boobs once it has to be R/M. If you can see more than a gallon of blood in this movie/game it must be rated PG-13/T" That's really all there is too it. These letters are in no way a guarantee of what many of us consider "mature content" because most of us can look past what is shallowly defined as mature.

As many other people have been saying, I think there are many ways to give a game more depth without specifically hitting a *** or bad word quota. I completely agree that the beginning movie to FFXI was more mature than anything I saw in Age of Conan, including the people running around with their characters literally naked. If there is mature content, I want it to actually be under the category of 'mature content,' not added nudity or gore. People just find a way to abuse the rating M because it almost always is rated M for vapidity. I'm looking forward to not dealing with the children who bought AoC because "it's rated M and therefore more cool and it shows boobs!" thanks to the T rating.
#45 Apr 14 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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I'm jealous :P But obviously I don't think that's a solid case for why depicting it in FFXIV would be realistic.


well, we have to know what the avatar is wearing first. if its plate mail obviously we wont see any camel toes. if its a big bulky robe then we wont see any camel toe (unless they add the "upskirt" job to the class list). if its a thin, diaphanous dress that hugs the curves of a womans body, then seeing camel toe is proportionately more likely :p
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#46 Apr 14 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
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I'm jealous :P But obviously I don't think that's a solid case for why depicting it in FFXIV would be realistic.


well, we have to know what the avatar is wearing first. if its plate mail obviously we wont see any camel toes. if its a big bulky robe then we wont see any camel toe (unless they add the "upskirt" job to the class list). if its a thin, diaphanous dress that hugs the curves of a womans body, then seeing camel toe is proportionately more likely :p


Are such things within the realm of possibility? Sure. Do they occur? Yup. But is it standard? Is it commonplace? No, not for 95% of the world's population. Even in SoCal (I lived in San Diego for a year) even when girls are wearing bathing suits, even when girls are wearing underwear and lingerie, it's just not that frequent. "Every so often" just isn't going to fly in this case.

With that in mind, no, I'd say the vastly more likely explanation is that they're designing for *** appeal to guys. Would really tight clothes lead to camel toe? Oh yeah, of course. But is that the motivating factor for including it? God no.


Debate over the physics of camel toes...gotta love the internet.
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#47 Apr 14 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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Only thing that really bothers me about limiting things to T ratings is, when it inevitably comes to plot, villains get an arbitrary pair of kiddy gloves slapped on. This doesn't mean every one needs to maim, rape, or otherwise cross that line between Teen and Mature, but you gain some more room to explore the human psyche along with its strengths and weaknesses if reasonable motives can lead to believable outcomes.

I'd like to see another villain like Valkyrie Profile's Lezard Valeth pop up somewhere. He was just fun to watch as cerebral villain that wasn't powerless, either.
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#48 Apr 14 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I will never understand why *** is so bad but violence is perfectly fine for children.


Blame the Puritans. (Seriously, look up their lasting impact on American culture.)
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#49 Apr 14 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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When I'm at the swimming pool and I take off my glasses, I can only see clearly about 2 inches in front of my face. Everything else is super blurry. What have I been missing? O.o
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#50 Apr 15 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
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Blame the Puritans. (Seriously, look up their lasting impact on American culture.)


qft. when a group of people are SO EXTREME that even the dutch (a very accepting, open-minded people) kick them out, you know its some Bad ****.
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