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#102 Apr 22 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske wrote:
And if we extend the argument to other situations, then we can never suggest any design in the game...because why do one thing, when they could devote the resources to (infinite) other things.

Which is why you don't see me suggesting anything on these forums, actually. I have things I'd love to see, but I'm not, especially as a non-alpha tester, going to suggest or ask people to suggest them to do changes based on my limited vision of the game. I'm excited about it, I have high hopes about most of it, and wish they would make male miqo'te and a number of other things, but that's just my wishes.

The game industry just doesn't care that much about my wishes, especially when I'm not on the design team. The games where I am, my opinion counts a bit more, but I still have to fight for what I believe in, and even if I manage to sell my idea to the whole team (doing studies, researching the topic, backing my point), at the end of the day, the development director, producers and shareholders get to say if the feature gets in or not (Based on delays, studies of RoI, etc.)

My point is, wishing for something to be done differently is the very first step to see the change. Talking about it, as you are, is the second one, but in this case, you're talking to other fans and people who either agree or disagree with you, but have about as much power over seeing the change done as yourself, which is, none at all.

If you're really serious about seeing single-names go into the game, you'll have to take that idea to square-enyx, and then someone over there (A community manager, usually) will have to tell a game designer that the community (or part of it) would like to see a change, and they'll argue about it, then the game designer might ask his lead about it, and so on. It's a long process, and I think that kind of effort should really be spent on something that has more impact on gameplay than a bunch of floating letters above some characters.

Eske wrote:
I say, let SE devote an extra week to coding it properly

Coding isn't the major problem. Script-writing is. You might currently be asking for hundreds and hundreds of hours of extra work for writers, translators and testers, yet you seem to think this is a trivial change. Believe me on this one, it's not.
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#103 Apr 22 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Eske wrote:
In fact, I said "it's not a big deal". What I am arguing, is that it's a less desirable situation than being able to simply name the character what I want, and let SE do whatever work needs to be done to make that happen.
I don't feel like you're being honest when you claim that though. Your assertion that "it's not a big deal" (exact internal quote now, happy? Smiley: rolleyes) is contradicted by your insistence that such a minor change would make it significantly difficult to introduce yourself, unwillingness to acknowledge the amount of effort a change like that requires on SE's part, comments addressed below, and refusal to entertain other names. If you truly felt it was "not a big deal" we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Eske wrote:
That situation is (arguably) even easier, because it involves absolutely no effort by the player base. So who's making a big deal out of something trivial, here?
I assure you SE is much more concerned with their continual effort than your one time effort.
Eske wrote:
Boy, that's a **** of a gross exaggeration.
It's hyperbole, yes.
Eske wrote:
1) Do we have a pressing issue of duplicates that's been dying to be addressed?
It comes up quite a bit when making new characters, which is the only place where your concern really comes up as well.
Eske wrote:
2) Two-part names are a very, very minor aspect of the game's aesthetics.
I disagree, particularly when everything else in the game is structured that way.
Eske wrote:
3) Same here...is this marginal benefit worth not being able to just name my character what I want? I don't think so.
I disagree again, it opens up a much higher level of immersion for something that's "not a big deal" (right?) on your end.
Eske wrote:
4) Frankly, no it doesn't.
I didn't say it made it impossible.
Eske wrote:
5) Not a good reason, obviously.
This is the best reason actually. SE needs to have design control over their product. If they tried to please every single player they'd never get anything done and the game would be a disjointed mess. The best strategy for them is to do whatever they need to do to make FFXIV a coherent piece of art while attempting to create the best gameplay experience possible. The more effort they waste on something like this the less time they have for stuff that affects the player longer than the first 2 minutes of making a character.
Eske wrote:
First of all, "QQ MOAR", is ad hominem. Perhaps you meant it towards Blue,

I did, it's not even as much ad hominem as "'you' (blue in this case) are making a fool out of yourself by getting upset and going on about how everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot, etc."
Eske wrote:
you wrote it after a paragraph that was addressed to me,
Not directly addressed to you either. I was generally referring to that side of the argument (and I apologize for lumping you in with some of those posters, but at that point you main arguments weren't different from some of theirs even though you were much more civil about it), you'll notice the bulk of that paragraph I addressed the "no good reason" posters, which was a question you hadn't asked until later.
Eske wrote:
Ad hominem attacks do not have to be direct insults, or outwardly deragatory. They can also be implied condescension, or a trivialization of another's point of view via oversimplification or exaggeration.
By definition an Ad Hominem attack is directed against you personally, not your argument. I've only been addressing your argument (and those on that side of the table), I just think your argument is overblown, contradictory, and generally ridiculous.
Eske wrote:
addressing my points (which I keep asking you to do, and you keep ignoring)
no? If I didn't address your points there wouldn't be any on topic conversation. We've discussed several of your points, if there is one in particular you think I'm neglecting point it out.
Eske wrote:
But it's been done before in other MMO's.
and? There are plenty of things in other MMOs that aren't good ideas or efficient or immersive or even coherent. "It can be done" doesn't make it a good idea. For something like this the potential gain in consumer retention/happiness to effort exerted ratio is horrible.

[quote=Eske]I say, let SE devote an extra week to coding it properly. Or let them pay another employee to get it done. Whatever. And if it takes out time that would otherwise be spent allowing us to sit on benches, then let 'em work on the benches once they fix this issue. Just shift everything back a week. Where's the harm in that? [/quote]speaking of ignoring my argument/oversimplification/exaggeration......

eh, linda covered it pretty well. Honestly I'd rather be able to sit on benches. Also it's "one time effort" vs "continual effort" over something with a long lifespan. The winner is obvious.
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#104 Apr 23 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Which is why you don't see me suggesting anything on these forums, actually. I have things I'd love to see, but I'm not, especially as a non-alpha tester, going to suggest or ask people to suggest them to do changes based on my limited vision of the game. I'm excited about it, I have high hopes about most of it, and wish they would make male miqo'te and a number of other things, but that's just my wishes.

The game industry just doesn't care that much about my wishes, especially when I'm not on the design team. The games where I am, my opinion counts a bit more, but I still have to fight for what I believe in, and even if I manage to sell my idea to the whole team (doing studies, researching the topic, backing my point), at the end of the day, the development director, producers and shareholders get to say if the feature gets in or not (Based on delays, studies of RoI, etc.)

My point is, wishing for something to be done differently is the very first step to see the change. Talking about it, as you are, is the second one, but in this case, you're talking to other fans and people who either agree or disagree with you, but have about as much power over seeing the change done as yourself, which is, none at all.

If you're really serious about seeing single-names go into the game, you'll have to take that idea to square-enyx, and then someone over there (A community manager, usually) will have to tell a game designer that the community (or part of it) would like to see a change, and they'll argue about it, then the game designer might ask his lead about it, and so on. It's a long process, and I think that kind of effort should really be spent on something that has more impact on gameplay than a bunch of floating letters above some characters.

Eske wrote:
I say, let SE devote an extra week to coding it properly


Coding isn't the major problem. Script-writing is. You might currently be asking for hundreds and hundreds of hours of extra work for writers, translators and testers, yet you seem to think this is a trivial change. Believe me on this one, it's not.


I'm sorry, but that belief just strikes me as a bit...silly. The whole point of the forum is to have open discussion and debate, and suggesting ideas is par for the course. If we had somebody shut down that aspect of discussion every single time with these "It's probably really really hard to code that" and "Why do that when they could do something else" arguments, then it'd be pretty pathetic. Ideas can be generated on the forums, gain consensus, and then move to the beta, or SE's ears. It's not far-fetched.

Now in this case, I hope you can understand that I'm arguing my point largely for the purpose of entertaining myself. I like spirited debates, especially when they're well-argued and civil (as has been the case with you), this is just an extension of the whole reason I post on the forum...banter, debating, arguing...it's all just for kicks. On the name issue, I disagree with your assertions, but as I mentioned, it's really just a quibble. I think it's something that I'll put to SE if it turns out that things haven't changed a little later on, or perhaps if I get into the beta. (As I mentioned before, my belief is that this is an oversight, not a design decision, so I'm anticipating things changing anyway). I'm not sweating it either way, though.

So indulge me...I'd rather discuss the issue in-and-of-itself, not the practicality of discussing it on a forum, which I'm quite aware of.

To the other points: I'm willing to wager that both you and shintasama have more coding/script-writing experience than I do (I'm an architecture major, so that pretty much sums that up) so I'll accept that it's perhaps a more complex issue than I envision. Yet I still find myself a bit skeptical...I have a feeling that you're both playing up the difficulty to some extent. See, in my head, I'm trying to picture these other developers that already included optional last names. I just can't see them saying "Okay, we've spent the last two years completing the game's textures, script, and CG. Now all that's left is to make it so that players can choose not to have a last name. That should take us...lets see...another year and 3.4 million dollars".

How hard is this to do, exactly? I know that I'm asking for specifics which you probably can't provide. But what are we talking? A week? A month? How large a team? Does it get scripted by a couple of guys over the course of two months, then tested?

I have no idea. But when I see that it's been done by other developers, I'm inclined to think that they did the value-judgement, and found that it was worth the effort. For them, the balance of work vs. reward suggested that it was a good idea. So why would you think that it isn't the same for SE? I doubt that it's exorbitantly harder for SE, and we've already established that the benefit and desire are there for many of us players.

So maybe that will help you understand why your hypotheticals just aren't winning me over. Decrying the massive difficulty of something that's already been done a few times isn't very convincing. You can argue that it "might" be slightly difference in SE's case because of their unique methodologies, but you wouldn't really know, would you?

Professor shintasama wrote:
I don't feel like you're being honest when you claim that though. Your assertion that "it's not a big deal" (exact internal quote now, happy? Smiley: rolleyes) is contradicted by your insistence that such a minor change would make it significantly difficult to introduce yourself, unwillingness to acknowledge the amount of effort a change like that requires on SE's part, comments addressed below, and refusal to entertain other names. If you truly felt it was "not a big deal" we wouldn't be having this conversation.


I think you've misunderstood my arguing method (you can refer to my second paragraph addressing Lianda for my motivations, too). I don't believe, (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that I said anywhere that it would be "significantly difficult" to do anything. IIRC, I said "why should I even have to have those conversations", or something to that effect. In general, it's my retort to the "you could just do xxx" argument that you guys have been posing. To that I say, "why should I even have to do xxx, when I could just do nothing and have my name". It's not an argument that hedges on a massive difference in the difficulty of doing anything. In your situation, I don't have the name I want, and have to tell people to call me something else (again, not a huge dilemma, but all I'm saying is that it's more work than doing nothing). In my situation, I have the name I want, which makes me happy, AND I don't have to do anything else.


Quote:
I assure you SE is much more concerned with their continual effort than your one time effort.


You guys go to bat for SE so fervently that I'm beginning to wonder if you work for them, hehe. Well, yes. SE is sometimes more concerned with my one-time effort than their continual effort. They're providing a service for money. The customer is always right, you know? I'm being semi-facetious here, but yeah, sometimes they're going to do things that aren't super-fun in order to provide a better product. The motivation for SE's design decisions comes from player service. They're not making this game for themselves, you know.

Quote:
It comes up quite a bit when making new characters, which is the only place where your concern really comes up as well.


Perhaps I'm not understanding. Presumably two characters, each with the same first name, but one with a last name, would not count as duplicates. By my system, if I want to name my character "Blacktail", but find it's taken, then I can add a last name if I want. So what's the difference? My system is just as effective as yours, except with more choice. And how is this the only place where my concern comes up, exactly? My concern comes up exactly at the point where I can't name my character the name that I want.

Quote:
I disagree, particularly when everything else in the game is structured that way.


Okay...but I'm taking this one with a grain of salt. The visual balance of "XXXXX XXXXX" is of critical importance, eh? Because as I've said before, you're still going to have your "Diahrrea McFartypants" characters. Not exactly a unified impression. Obviously, I feel that the comparative benefit of being able to name my character what I want outweighs whatever feng shui benefit having everyone named "XXXX XXXX" provides.

Quote:
I disagree again, it opens up a much higher level of immersion for something that's "not a big deal" (right?) on your end.


I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. You say, "a much higher level of immersion". I say, "not even remotely."

Quote:
I didn't say it made it impossible.


It actually makes no quantifiable difference in the difficult of making a joke/stupid name. Unless you want to argue that it's an arduous task to write a word. Because that's the difference between one name and two. One word.

Quote:
This is the best reason actually. SE needs to have design control over their product. If they tried to please every single player they'd never get anything done and the game would be a disjointed mess. The best strategy for them is to do whatever they need to do to make FFXIV a coherent piece of art while attempting to create the best gameplay experience possible. The more effort they waste on something like this the less time they have for stuff that affects the player longer than the first 2 minutes of making a character.


You say "waste", I say "worthy effort". You say "affects the player [no] longer than the first 2 minutes", I say "affects the character in every single interaction that he has for the entire game." I also bolded the section that would benefit from letting me name my character what I want. Because see, I would enjoy that. As would many others. And as paying customers, SE is apt to consider such a service, provided that the effort/reward ratio works out. You guys are arguing that it "might" not (it's all hypothetical, though). I'm arguing that, because it's been done in other games, it can't be THAT hard.

Quote:
I did, it's not even as much ad hominem as "'you' (blue in this case) are making a fool out of yourself by getting upset and going on about how everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot, etc."


Quote:
Not directly addressed to you either. I was generally referring to that side of the argument (and I apologize for lumping you in with some of those posters, but at that point you main arguments weren't different from some of theirs even though you were much more civil about it), you'll notice the bulk of that paragraph I addressed the "no good reason" posters, which was a question you hadn't asked until later.


I'm happy to drop it, then. Thank you for being civil.

Quote:
and? There are plenty of things in other MMOs that aren't good ideas or efficient or immersive or even coherent. "It can be done" doesn't make it a good idea. For something like this the potential gain in consumer retention/happiness to effort exerted ratio is horrible.


That's a real reach on your part though. Unless I'm mistaken, you have no quantifiable knowledge of how difficult this would be for SE to do. And your assumption that other companies went through some arduous and frivolous labor of love to make surnames optional, just to achieve some negligible benefit to their player base, is a LOT to swallow. So no, I don't even remotely agree with your assertion that the "retention/happiness to effort exerted ratio is horrible" claim.

Quote:
speaking of ignoring my argument/oversimplification/exaggeration......


As of right now, no, I don't subscribe to your assertions about the difficulty of scripting this. My paragraphs addressed to Lianda in the beginning pretty much sum up how I feel about it.



EDIT: I just finished my studio final critique, so I'm in a good mood. Rate-ups to everyone for a good debate!

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 9:30am by Eske

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 9:33am by Eske
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#105 Apr 23 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eske wrote:
The whole point of the forum is to have open discussion and debate, and suggesting ideas is par for the course. If we had somebody shut down that aspect of discussion every single time with these "It's probably really really hard to code that" and "Why do that when they could do something else" arguments, then it'd be pretty pathetic.

Well, there are things that are easy to change and require lots of heads to figure the right answer. For example, if during the beta people discover that putting points in agility or dexterity (whatever, making up stats) is not as "good" as putting points in strength (similar to how nobody apparently should merit dex in XI), then this is clearly someting Square can fix, and "easily". Those things work by systems, and changing a constant (like 0.8% accuracy per point goes up to 0.87% per point) is an easy change that helps make the game better. That's the purpose of alphas/betas (as well as finding bugs, getting an idea of players progress, what overpowered combinations they all use, and the stability of the servers.

Eske wrote:
See, in my head, I'm trying to picture these other developers that already included optional last names. I just can't see them saying "Okay, we've spent the last two years completing the game's textures, script, and CG. Now all that's left is to make it so that players can choose not to have a last name. That should take us...lets see...another year and 3.4 million dollars".

Okay, let's take the following example:
If a character's name in the memory is the string of characters "John Smith" and another character name is "Bluetail"
"Allowing" the user to choose a name that doesnt have any space in it or forcing the user to have a space in it is a trivial change. Whenever a character refers to you, the code will look like this: "Hello %name, have you seen my cat?". This works, and requires no testing at all to change. Trivial change, as you suggest.
What we are suggesting is that the variables aren't set that way in the system right now. The game has 2 fields, one called name, and the other called surname. Essentially "John" and "Smith" for case 1 and... a logic error for the 2nd.

Now, what the 2nd system allows that the first doesn't is that characters are now able, if the author/script writer wills it, to refer to your character as, for example "Smith-san" or "Naito Smith" (Knight Smith) or "John". In Japan, being able to refer to someone with their first name is a kind of a big deal. My assumption, and the one others have shared before in this thread is that the game makes full use of this opportunity. There's a big difference in formality/familiarity involved whether you're called by your full name, first name, or surname. Heck, whenever I'm called by my fullname in real life, I usually associate this with bad news.

So let's assume that all dialogs so far in the game have been written with such a system in place. Asking the developpers to allow a character to not have a surname seems easy at first glance: Sure, allow a zero-length string. Problem solved. Not so.

1) Whenever the dialog string uses "%firstname %surname does this", for example would have double spaces after the first name. (notice how there is a space between the first name, the null-string and the verb. Kinda easy fix, you check for double-spacing on all strings and convert to single spaces. Heck, HTLM does it. But every easy "fix" requires thorough TESTING. It's not enough to know that it works in theory, and on a single string, you need to have someone check if it works on every single string in the database, in every language. That itself (testing first pass) takes a long time. Assuming a sneaky bug occured because of this change, they have to develop an exception case, or a better solution. This can be a lengthy process.
2) Whenever the dialog string uses "%firstname" or "%surname" independently (Like "Please come here, Mr. %surname" and "I'm so happy to see you, %firstname!"), you change it to the character's "only" name. That seems to fix most problems, but as I pointed a few posts above, it can create issues if the dialog writer planned something like this: "My name? Bond. James Bond."
In the James Bond example, taking rule 1 and rule 2 together would produce this: "My name? Bluetail. Bluetail." It lost something in translation, didn't it?

A simple rule most engineers (programmers) have with coding is the following: "It's code. We can do anything.", but the truth is, some things take time to change, especially when you're this advanced in a project. FFXIV has been in production for years. There is likely a few writers, and I assume they have each of them a full-time job just writing stuff (dialog, quest / mission details, items descriptions, etc.) Up until the release, their time is probably already planned to keep writing more. Asking them to go back and change everything they did for the last 5 years to suddenly no longer use a distinct %firstname and %surname functionnality, because some users would rather not have surnames is a big deal.

Now, the one point of hope I can give you is this: They might NOT have done it this way. Possibly that the earlier "John Smith" / "Bluetail" example is the correct one, in which case they could, if they fancied it, change the line of code that enforces the ASCII character 32 (space bar) in the character name string.

Eske wrote:
You guys go to bat for SE so fervently that I'm beginning to wonder if you work for them

Nay, I worked for EA for 6 years and now work for Ubisoft. Things aren't that different between game companies.

Ekse wrote:
And as paying customers, SE is apt to consider such a service, provided that the effort/reward ratio works out. You guys are arguing that it "might" (it's all hypothetical, though). I'm arguing that, because it's been done in other games, it can't be THAT hard.

Each project is coded differently. What might be trivial for Blizzard to change could be a complete do-over for square, even if the game plays similarly. You can't assume it's easy because others have done it, although on the flipside, I can't assume it's a hard because I want to. I'm just saying that you don't go to the trouble of creating distinct text fields, and enforcing a strict rule "You must create a surname to finish the character creation process." by accident. Those error messages, pop-ups and text fields had to be designed, and therefore, people discussed it to **** and back, and decided that this is how things would be. Asking them to change it by thinking it's an oversight is not even hopeful thinking, it's almost delusional at this point. --I don't mean this as an attack, but I just really don't want you to believe all of this is just a small thing. Nothing in a game this big was decided at the drop of a hat. When millions of dollars are on the line, believe me, everything is analyzed thoroughly by dozens of people.

However, if Square realizes it's a big enough mistake, they COULD take the time to go back and change it all. Really, however, would you rather the time be spent on this or something like content, more missions, balanced gameplay, a smooth learning curve / progression speed? In the face of every other challenge they have ahead of them, this is one of the "probably a lot harder and riskier to change, and with very little impact." (arguably, you could say that changing all the dialog to no longer distinguish firstname and surname would reduce the experience for many)

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 10:35am by Lianda
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#106 Apr 23 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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#107 Apr 23 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Nice explanation. That helps me understand it a little better.

I do think that you're riding a lot on what I'll call your "Bond. James Bond." argument. While I'll agree that it's conceivable that SE could place importance on having dialogue worded as such, I still think it's very flimsy rationale for not letting players pick the name they want. I'd argue that being completely happy with my character's name has a LOT more to do with my enjoyment of the game than whatever satisfaction I would presumably garner from seeing the dialogue style of "Bond. James Bond." In that case, why not just change the dialogue? How important is that particular phrasing, in the grand scheme of things?

I do think your point about Japanese formality is pretty good, though. It's definitely a plausible rationale for SE to make surnames forced, I'll give you that. Would I agree with it, (if it was the case) though? No, not really. With the ability to make the names optional, then there's still the opportunity for Japanese players to add a last name to suit their convention, and enjoy whatever benefit might come. And this way, the rest of the world wouldn't be limited by another cultural standard. I'm referring here to player-to-player interactions, of course. When it comes to npc's, yes I suppose I'm asking for a situation like your #1 there, and whatever testing is required.

Quote:
Things aren't that different between game companies.


Quote:
What might be trivial for Blizzard to change could be a complete do-over for square, even if the game plays similarly....You can't assume it's easy because others have done it.


If I had premium, I'd be using that emoticon that has one eyebrow raised. I know I'm taking things a little out of context here, so it's not really fair. But I thought I'd point it out anyway.

To your last point:

It's important to remember that the game is in its Alpha test, not Beta. Yes, I know that the largest portion of such testing is related to uncovering bugs and stability issues, not questioning design decisions. But I'm sorry, your assertion isn't accurate. By definition, an Alpha test is not "feature complete". There is still room for adjustment.

Lastly, I'll restate that I understand that there are hypothetical explanations (I'm trying to really hammer this one home, obviously) for SE to not allow surnames to be optional. But since you can't say as such with any certainty, then wouldn't it be prudent for you to just agree that it would be a nice feature to add, and allow SE worry about the rest? They can choose to do whatever they like...they don't need you to fight their battles for them. So since you're not in the know, why not let this idea get off the ground, instead of raining on everyone's parade (and with what amount to "maybe's")?
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#108 Apr 23 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
If I had premium, I'd be using that emoticon that has one eyebrow raised. I know I'm taking things a little out of context here, so it's not really fair. But I thought I'd point it out anyway.

I'm pretty serious though. You can make a game that plays the same, but has completely different engines behind it. Changing the physic system to have no gravity might be a simple knob to turn (variable to tune) in one, and months of re-work in the other. There are just some things like that, that once intergrated the first time, can't be changed easily. Most of the "fun" of being a game designer is managing to get the desired results without impacting the invariable elements core of the engine, by tweaking and tuning the variables that are avaialable. Some things aren't so simple.

Eske wrote:
It's important to remember that the game is in its Alpha test, not Beta.

Yep. Very late Alpha, since beta is so close. The game is much more "advanced" in the production than you seem to think, and many decisions cannot be "fixed" already by this point. The art style, the inability to jump, for example, can't really be changed until release and still ship on time. The running speed, however, could (probably with some effort). The cost of using teleport from Aetherites (sp?) is also tunable. The soundtrack cannot. Voice-overs cannot.

Depending on how they made it, surnames can be on either side. (Hard or easy fix).

Here's some questions :
1) If they made the name system so that it cannot be changed easily, would you still want it to be changed--Do you consider this a good use of the time they have left?
2) If they made the name system so they could change it easily, but DECIDE not to? It was just a design decision and they stand by it. Are you willing to bring it to their attention, to make them see the error of their ways, or are you going to let them do it, and come up with a surname? Or perhaps buycott the game because of their dictatorial ways?
3) If they release the game with the forced surnames, and they never give a proper explanation for not doing the change, so that we forever remain in the shadow about this decision, how will it affect the quality of your life?

Eske wrote:
it would be a nice feature to add, and allow SE worry about the rest?

That's a combination of my pessimistic nature, my realist side and my experience in the industry speaking. If I can "divine" why a feature isn't in the game, I can give you a probably pretty good estimate of the chances of seeing it happen. I'm just used to see how the wheels and cogs turn, and if any particular aspect of the game is "blocked" or not. Sure, at the end of the day, it's just my estimate, and I could be proven wrong. You would be happy if I was proven wrong, and I would be surprised.

If I think that being able to have light blue hair would be awesome, isn't very hard to do (it's just a texture!) and that I'd hear they don't have it (I don't know if they offer it) or only offer it to such-and-such race, and not another, I could decide to start a thread and say "Square-enyx should offer it to everyone! It's not hard, and it would make many people happy!", but at the end of the day, it's very likely the idea of a light-blue haired character of such-and-such race is not something that Square want in their game. It's their call, and there's not much I can do about it. If they want it, it's either already planned and I don't need to tell them. If they don't want it, I don't think my opinion will sway them the other way.

If they're asking for inputs in a survey "Which colours would you like to see added to the game?", then I'll give them my opinion.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 1:47pm by Lianda
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#109 Apr 23 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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so much rage in this thread

And looooong posts.
#110 Apr 23 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Lianda wrote:
Here's some questions :
1) If they made the name system so that it cannot be changed easily, would you still want it to be changed--Do you consider this a good use of the time they have left?


Tough to say...it really depends on the quantities we're talking about here. If it were to say, postpone the entire game for a month, then no, that would be too much time devoted to the issue. But if it's something that can be fixed while other tasks are being done (which I suspect it is) and only causes indirect delays of say, 7-12ish days? Sure, get it done. I can be patient for another week. It's all dependent upon the difficulty involved obviously, which we've established we know nothing about. If by some nature the game isn't ready for release at it's scheduled date, they can move it back. Considering that almost every single MMORPG gets delayed at some point, this'll probably happen anyway.

Quote:
2) If they made the name system so they could change it easily, but DECIDE not to? It was just a design decision and they stand by it. Are you willing to bring it to their attention, to make them see the error of their ways, or are you going to let them do it, and come up with a surname? Or perhaps buycott the game because of their dictatorial ways?


I mentioned before that if I get a chance to play the beta, I'll pose it to them and hear for myself if there's a reason for it. If not, I'll happily work with whatever condition I find when I buy the game. Like I said, it's not a big deal.

Quote:
3) If they release the game with the forced surnames, and they never give a proper explanation for not doing the change, so that we forever remain in the shadow about this decision, how will it affect the quality of your life?


Eh? Not really sure what you're going for here. If I don't get into the alpha/beta, and when I buy the game, I find out that surnames are force, then I'll make a surname.

Quote:
If I think that being able to have light blue hair would be awesome, isn't very hard to do (it's just a texture!) and that I'd hear they don't have it (I don't know if they offer it) or only offer it to such-and-such race, and not another, I could decide to start a thread and say "Square-enyx should offer it to everyone! It's not hard, and it would make many people happy!", but at the end of the day, it's very likely the idea of a light-blue haired character of such-and-such race is not something that Square want in their game. It's their call, and there's not much I can do about it. If they want it, it's either already planned and I don't need to tell them. If they don't want it, I don't think my opinion will sway them the other way.

If they're asking for inputs in a survey "Which colours would you like to see added to the game?", then I'll give them my opinion.


The difference here is that if you make a post saying that you want light blue hair I'd say, "Sure, tell SE to put it in the game" even though I don't happen to care about that issue. They've already got weird hair colors in the game, so it's not like it affects the game's setting at all. It's no skin off my back, so go ahead. Raise enough of a clamor, and I bet you'll see it added, too. If they tell you that they don't want to do it, then I guess you're out of luck. But me? I'm not going to tell you that you can't do it because of my guess about SE's intentions.
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#111 Apr 23 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if the order of the family name and the given name is swapped on the Japanese client and for the sake of Japanese players on Western clients? Because Japanese name order is opposite of western cultures; family name first and given name second.

Wouldn't that just be awful if they didn't? A westerner tries to be polite and refers to someone by their family name, only to end up calling the most politeness-oriented demographic by their given? It would only be insulting to the very people who are most offended by it.



Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 3:35pm by Zemzelette
#112 Apr 23 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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#113 Apr 23 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
The difference here is that if you make a post saying that you want light blue hair I'd say, "Sure, tell SE to put it in the game" even though I don't happen to care about that issue. They've already got weird hair colors in the game, so it's not like it affects the game's setting at all. It's no skin off my back, so go ahead. Raise enough of a clamor, and I bet you'll see it added, too.

Eske wrote:
But if it's something that can be fixed while other tasks are being done (which I suspect it is) and only causes indirect delays of say, 7-12ish days? Sure, get it done. I can be patient for another week.

See, it doesn't work that way. I'm going to illustrate why with an exageration, but I can't have my light blue hair, and your surname-free characters, because that would mean 2 extra weeks of work. What about other people's requests for male miqo'te? We're a patient community, Square, we'll wait 3 extra weeks for them too. And while we're at it, female Roedagyns, some have asked for them, so here's an extra week or two.

1) If a game company keep catering to every potential gamer's needs, The game would never ship.
2) Shareholders, release dates, financial quarters play a much bigger role in release dates than you seem to think.
3) Some features are worth fighting for, but for every feature you "win", you lose something of higher value. The "wasted" effort making something and undoing it, or the time you spend re-evaluting it makes it so that at some point, you just stop changing things, and ship the product. You will make mistake, you will upset some players, but it's all a calculated risk.
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#114 Apr 23 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Lianda wrote:
Eske wrote:
The difference here is that if you make a post saying that you want light blue hair I'd say, "Sure, tell SE to put it in the game" even though I don't happen to care about that issue. They've already got weird hair colors in the game, so it's not like it affects the game's setting at all. It's no skin off my back, so go ahead. Raise enough of a clamor, and I bet you'll see it added, too.

Eske wrote:
But if it's something that can be fixed while other tasks are being done (which I suspect it is) and only causes indirect delays of say, 7-12ish days? Sure, get it done. I can be patient for another week.

See, it doesn't work that way. I'm going to illustrate why with an exageration, but I can't have my light blue hair, and your surname-free characters, because that would mean 2 extra weeks of work. What about other people's requests for male miqo'te? We're a patient community, Square, we'll wait 3 extra weeks for them too. And while we're at it, female Roedagyns, some have asked for them, so here's an extra week or two.

1) If a game company keep catering to every potential gamer's needs, The game would never ship.
2) Shareholders, release dates, financial quarters play a much bigger role in release dates than you seem to think.
3) Some features are worth fighting for, but for every feature you "win", you lose something of higher value. The "wasted" effort making something and undoing it, or the time you spend re-evaluting it makes it so that at some point, you just stop changing things, and ship the product. You will make mistake, you will upset some players, but it's all a calculated risk.


This is pretty much the same issue that we had before, where I suggested that it seems like you have a problem with the entire notion of people proposing changes to a game. It's a false dilemma fallacy. By your logic, no suggestions by the player-base that require any amount of effort or time from SE should ever be implemented into the game. You suggest that it's all or nothing; if you do one, you have to do them all.

But obviously there's a middle ground here. There are value-judgements to be made based on the level of player interest, SE's vision for the game, and the feasibility of implementation. I don't think that providing optional surnames represents a threat to any of these, obviously. If someone wants to propose light blue hair or male mi'qote, then let 'em. They're not unreasonable ideas. Leave it to SE to make that value-judgement, because when it comes down to it, we don't have a clue what the company is thinking.

PS: I think Male Mi'qote has become the FFXIV equivalent of Godwin's Law.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 4:02pm by Eske
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#115 Apr 23 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
This is pretty much the same issue that we had before, where I suggested that it seems like you have a problem with the entire notion of people proposing changes to a game. It's a false dilemma fallacy. By your logic, no suggestions by the player-base that require any amount of effort or time from SE should ever be implemented into the game. You suggest that it's all or nothing; if you do one, you have to do them all.

I'm not saying not to propose changes, I'm saying to propose changes that are worth the sacrifice. Pushing the deadline is a big sacrifice. Taking another feature off the list of features at launch day is also a big sacrifice.

If I was a alpha tester and saw a bug that absolutely shouldn't make it in the final release, I'd push for it to get fixed. You wouldn't see me move a finger for something as mild as surnames (or hair color). If someone decide to ask for the change, I wouldn't do anything about it, and if the feature makes it in, I won't be angry at square. More hair color is a good thing, sure, but if they stopped at 15 or 20 or 50 or 100, there's likely a very well planned reason why they didn't have 16 or 22 or 56 or 110. This isn't something you'll see me consider seriously (outside of examples)

Which is why I said I'm not against mandatory surnames; I wouldn't put a single minute of programmer time to "fix" that, if it needs fixing at all; there's likely thousands of better ways to use that time.
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#116 Apr 23 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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They're big boys and girls. They know what they have the time and resources for. It's one thing to state technical constraints as a fair warning for why a suggestion might not be implemented, but I can't agree with going far as to actively discourage feedback.

There are people whose whole jobs it is to shift through that mail and find the things that are feasible. Won't somebody please think of the customer service reps? :p


Quote:
Some features are worth fighting for, but for every feature you "win", you lose something of higher value


Your assuming that aside from a few oddball outliners like roleplayers and min/maxers, there is this singular collective of general player type that has similar enough interests that allows you to objectively state if something does or does not have value.

Nobody's just 'a player'.
We all have a label, or combination of labels that identify how remarkably different our playing goals can be. There are anywhere from 4 to friggin' 9 of these things, and at any given time a person's perspective only covers the interests of a small fraction.

Chances are, if you can't see the value in something, that's not because it isn't there. It's because it's not a feature intended to appeal to the type of player you are.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 4:32pm by Zemzelette
#117 Apr 23 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Lianda wrote:
Which is why I said I'm not against mandatory surnames; I wouldn't put a single minute of programmer time to "fix" that, if it needs fixing at all; there's likely thousands of better ways to use that time.


Provided, I assume you mean, that it's something that isn't a simple 'fix'. Which we don't know. I say, if people want a change, then make the case for it. We've already established that there's a desire for this. So arguing that it's not worth the time before it's even gone to the people who's job it is to decide that very thing, is both pessimistic and defeatist.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2010 4:55pm by Eske
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#118 Apr 23 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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We've already established that there's a desire for this.


No, not really.
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#119 Apr 23 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
We've already established that there's a desire for this.


No, not really.





Quote:
Haven't seen if it was said or not, but I really hope they'll give you the option to not have a surname.


Quote:
As of right now, surnames are not optional. Please, those of you in the Alpha/Beta, tell SE they need to stop with this "required surname" shenanigan. Totally unacceptable.


Quote:
Thanks for this Butterfly... this is good to know especially since I'm just having a name like... Tarveon


Quote:
Requiring the surname seems odd, but hardly worthy of this much drama. I hope the surname is not required, but if it is I'll find a way to carry on somehow.


Quote:
Agreed, this should not be forced upon us. There's no good reason to not have optional last names.


Quote:
If Batman was required to be called Batman Wayne or Batman ****, I would shoot myself.


Quote:
I'm firmly in the "it should be optional" camp on this matter.


Quote:
I'm also going to say they should be optional. I, for one, am going to have a hard time picking a last name if it's required. I have a few ideas, but nothing solid. After all, Wookiees don't have last names.


Quote:
I don't know what name I'll use yet, mostly because of the whole surname dilemma. I really do hope they make surnames optional, they add a whole lot of extra options to name choosing if you use it, but if they force surnames on you, wouldn't it feel as limiting as only being able to have one name? I mean, it's either "why can't I have a space in my name!" or "why do I have to have a space in my name!", so having the option for either way should make everyone happy!


Quote:
I'm a bit concerned about this. Since I was about 11 years old I've had a nickname that I've used throughout my life. That was 25 years ago. So I'm quite attached to it.


Thanks for coming.



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#120 Apr 23 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just going to drop this one:
Fans of the game on a fan-website are a pretty terrible representation of the future average user.
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#121 Apr 24 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is a screenshot from the official website. For those arguing over whether surnames should be optional or not, this screenshot shows two characters: Azagba X and Destiny. Destiny clearly does NOT have a surname, so there must be an option somehow.

That aside, someone PLEASE make a taru named Tahrongi Joe!
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#122 Apr 24 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Oh! snap! Autumnfire just dropped a bomb!
#123 Apr 24 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Autumnfire wrote:
This is a screenshot from the official website. For those arguing over whether surnames should be optional or not, this screenshot shows two characters: Azagba X and Destiny. Destiny clearly does NOT have a surname, so there must be an option somehow.

That aside, someone PLEASE make a taru named Tahrongi Joe!


That's a very, very old screenshot, (it's one of the first screencaps they ever showed of FFXIV) so I'm afraid it's not any guarantee of what we'll see in the final build. I wish I could say otherwise, I really do : /

Quote:
Fans of the game on a fan-website are a pretty terrible representation of the future average user


On what grounds? Can't say I agree with that at all. They obviously shouldn't be taken to represent all players, but they're a fairly standard element of the population.

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 4:40pm by Eske

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 4:43pm by Eske
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#124 Apr 26 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Goodness this thread got derailed.

To all those bellyaching about the surname, seriously, why not take all that angst and energy and focus it on creating a last name for your character instead of pointing your fingers and screaming at people? I'm currently in the same boat. My character names tend to be first names but I've never really been able to attach a pleasing last name to any of them. I will be spending some of my time before release coming up with a surname for my character that I can live with. Why don't you guys do the same?

You want to be called BT and like the name Blacktail? Well, make yourself Blacktail Thunderclap (yes, I just pulled that out of my **** as a suggestion). Now you can easily be called "B.T." and for obvious reasons.

Back on topic, if anything remains of it, my char in FFXI was a manthra... yeah, yeah, I know... I am leaning towards playing a Miqo'te in FFXIV, but I have not really made my decision yet. I am assuming, even so foolishly, we will only get 1 free character again here so I'm giving it some serious thought. I tend not to like being short and the Lalafel are already seeming a very popular choice. Humans are just too blah for me, and I definitely don't want to be a Rog---whatever they are. If the Elvaan equivalents here look less like Giraffemen, I may consider playing one, but... I will wait for more screens and such. It's looking like I will still be leaning Miqo'te with maybe a Lalafel alt. =/

So... yeah... still up for grabs on the name concept. =/
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#125 Apr 26 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
Autumnfire wrote:
This is a screenshot from the official website. For those arguing over whether surnames should be optional or not, this screenshot shows two characters: Azagba X and Destiny. Destiny clearly does NOT have a surname, so there must be an option somehow.

That aside, someone PLEASE make a taru named Tahrongi Joe!


That's a very, very old screenshot, (it's one of the first screencaps they ever showed of FFXIV) so I'm afraid it's not any guarantee of what we'll see in the final build. I wish I could say otherwise, I really do : /

Quote:
Fans of the game on a fan-website are a pretty terrible representation of the future average user


On what grounds? Can't say I agree with that at all. They obviously shouldn't be taken to represent all players, but they're a fairly standard element of the population.

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 4:40pm by Eske

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 4:43pm by Eske




Unfortunately, at this time, Surnames are not optional. Can't say how I know this, but... you can imagine I'm sure.

Guess we'll see if that changes in the future or not?
#126 Apr 27 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
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uhhh...on topic, I'd probably go with something like the name of my favorite areas from XI. Something like 'Rolanberry Fields' or 'La Theine'. I especially like the name of RolanBerry Fields.
#127 Apr 27 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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I'm thinking of something along the lines of Hot Cakes, Mac Gruber, or Big Willie... :)

#128 Apr 27 2010 at 5:04 AM Rating: Default
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A better question would be what class and race will you be.
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#129 Apr 27 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
Atillar wrote:
A better question would be what class and race will you be.


Don't plug your thread in other threads. It's shameful.
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#130 Apr 27 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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shinichoco wrote:
Goodness this thread got derailed.

To all those bellyaching about the surname, seriously, why not take all that angst and energy and focus it on creating a last name for your character instead of pointing your fingers and screaming at people? I'm currently in the same boat. My character names tend to be first names but I've never really been able to attach a pleasing last name to any of them. I will be spending some of my time before release coming up with a surname for my character that I can live with. Why don't you guys do the same?

You want to be called BT and like the name Blacktail? Well, make yourself Blacktail Thunderclap (yes, I just pulled that out of my **** as a suggestion). Now you can easily be called "B.T." and for obvious reasons.


No offense, but I can tell from your response that you haven't read everything I've posted in this thread (because that particular point has already been discussed to death). Now, I don't blame you; there's a **** ton of thread to sift through at this point. But you're pretty late to the game, and I think the argument has already run its course.

Quote:
Unfortunately, at this time, Surnames are not optional. Can't say how I know this, but... you can imagine I'm sure.

Guess we'll see if that changes in the future or not?


Bah, that's what I figured. Oh wells.

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#131 Apr 27 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Eske wrote:
Provided, I assume you mean, that it's something that isn't a simple 'fix'. Which we don't know. I say, if people want a change, then make the case for it. We've already established that there's a desire for this. So arguing that it's not worth the time before it's even gone to the people who's job it is to decide that very thing, is both pessimistic and defeatist.


You're not listening to what Lianda is saying. Even if there were a desire amongst the developers to make this addition/change, it is probably too late at this point in development, as the design has likely been finalized by the project leaders to prevent further scope creep. That is what Lianda was alluding to. Nothing short of a complete, game-breaking issue could change that final design without having to sacrifice something else in its place; that alone makes this 'fix' anything but simple.

-------

On-topic: I'm not sure what the naming conventions for each race are like yet, so it's hard for me to decide on a name that'll fit in-universe. If Lalafell and Miqo'te naming conventions are anything like their Tarutaru and Mithra precedessors, then it should be a simple task.
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#132 Apr 27 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
You're not listening to what Lianda is saying. Even if there were a desire amongst the developers to make this addition/change, it is probably too late at this point in development, as the design has likely been finalized by the project leaders to prevent further scope creep. That is what Lianda was alluding to. Nothing short of a complete, game-breaking issue could change that final design without having to sacrifice something else in its place; that alone makes this 'fix' anything but simple.


I've said my peace. Suffice to say I disagree. Just let the thread get back to its intended topic.

Edited, Apr 27th 2010 12:05pm by Eske
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